The turkic people and tribes of Iran

[random]

Azerbaijani Turks

http://i43.tinypic.com/2gxivf6.png

Population: 18 to 25 million

Language family
Turkic
Oghuz
Western Oghuz
Azerbaijani

Qashqai people:
The second largest (after the Azeris) Turkic nation in Iran. They number about 1,500,000 and live in Fars, Khuzestan and southern Isfahan provinces. They are still nomadic to a large extent, despite of efforts of the consecutive Iranian governments to force them to settle down. They have a reputation of being an excellent horsemen, warriors and marksmen.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ehdPHohyzg4/S8BjdFiWsVI/AAAAAAAAAr0/3IBgWCe102A/s1600/Qashqai+Map.gif
Population: 1.5 million

Language family:
Turkic
Western Oghuz
Azerbaijani
Qashqai

They have many flags, but it is very little known about them. The flag features the design of the traditional pattern of carpets woven in the area and Southern Azerbaijani-style of the crescent and eight pointed star. Although this flag is flown by the Qashqais, it is the flag of all Turks in South Iran.

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/i/ir_qashst.gif


The specific Qashqai flag features the tamga of Aq-Qoyunlu (White Sheep Turkoman) of which the Qashqai tribes are descended.
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/i/ir_qash.gif

Ak Koyunlu Khanate at its greatest extent 1378–1501

http://karabakh.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Aq_Qoyunlu.jpg

Khorasani Turks

Khorasani Turkic people or Qizilbash are Khorasani Turkic-speaking people inhabiting part of northeastern Iran, and in the neighboring regions of Turkmenistan up to beyond the Amu Darya River; and speak the Khorasani Turkic, and live in the North Khorasan, Razavi Khorasan and Golestan provinces of Iran.
http://joshuaproject.net/assets/media/profiles/maps/m12667_ir.png
population: 1 million

Language:
Turkic
Oghuz
Eastern Oghuz
Khorasani Turkic

Turkmen

http://joshuaproject.net/assets/media/profiles/maps/m15654_ir.png

population: 1 to 1.5 million

Language:
Turkic
Oghuz
Eastern Oghuz
Turkmen

Afshar

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-nvC0R8aK1dw/ToEaCs4vc4I/AAAAAAAAEGI/gx0Ie1-P-xQ/s1600/Map2.JPG

The Afshar are one of the Oghuz Turkic peoples.These originally nomadic Oghuz tribes moved from Central Asia and initially settled in Iranian Azerbaijan, later being relocated by the Safavids to Khurasan and Mazandaran.

Afshars in Iran remain a largely nomadic group,with tribes in central Anatolia, northern Iran, and Azerbaijan.They were the founders of the Afsharid and Karamanid dynasties.

Language:
Turkic
Oghuz
South

Afsharid empire under nader shah afshar (also known as Nader Qoli Beg or Tahmasp Qoli Khan ) from delhi to the russian empire.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/AfsharidEmpireIran.png

Afsharid Tricolor Banner
http://iranpoliticsclub.net/flags/colonial/images/Afsharid%20Persian%20State%20Standard%20Tricolor%2 0Pennant%20Banner%201736-1749%20Iran%20Flag.jpg

Afsharid Battle Banner

http://iranpoliticsclub.net/flags/colonial/images/Afsharid%2012%20Striped%2012%20Khat%20Battle%20Ban ner%201736-1749%20Iran%20Flag.jpg

Khalaj people

http://altaireal.snu.ac.kr/askreal_v25/langmapview/mapimgs/tkw600_002_khalaj_002.jpg

The Khalaj people are a Turkic people that speak the Khalaj language, which is thought to be one of the closest languages to Old Turkic.

According to Mahmud al-Kashgari, they were mentioned at Divânu Lügati't-Türk:

"Twenty twos call them "Kal aç" in Turkish. This means "Stay hungry". Later, they were called "Xalac". Their origins are these."

According to Zemarcos' Syriac chronicle, Khalajes would be remnants of Hephthalites, were separate Turkic people. He was ambassador of Byzantine Empire to Western Gokturk Khanate in 568. According to Al Khwarizmi, was Samanid officer, they were considered as descendants of Hepthtalithes along with Kanjina Turks. Ibn Khordadbeh mentioned Khalajes lived beyond Syr Darya of the Talas region in his book Kitāb al-Masālik w’al- Mamālik with Karluks. But the information comes into contradictions that make it unreliable. The similarity between Khalaj and Karluk is difficult to determine the truth.

language:
Turkic
Khalaj

Population: 50 thousand.

Qajars

The Qajars are a Turkic Oghuz tribe who lived variously, with other tribes, in the area that is now Armenia, Azerbaijan and northwestern Iran. They are considered as a branch of the Azerbaijanis In the 17th and 18th centuries the Kajars resisted the Safavids and settled the Karabakh Khanate. In 1794, a Kajar chieftain, Agha Mohammed, founded the Qajar dynasty which replaced the Zand dynasty in Iran. In the 1980s the Kajar population exceeded 15,000 people, most of whom lived in Iran.

Qajar dynasty

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Map_Iran_1900-en.png

Other turkic states in Iran ( after the seljuq empire)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Qara_Qoyunlu_Turcomans_1407–1468.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/The_maximum_extent_of_the_Safavid_Empire_under_Sha h_Abbas_I.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Khwarezmian_Empire_1190_-_1220_%28AD%29.PNG

[Sky earth]

Persians usually like the Safavids but they hate the Qajars more than anything else because the Qajars lost many territories in Iran, as they lost all the Russo-Persian wars.

[StonyArabia]

I wonder why all them looked Caucasoid if they were Turkic? They don't look much different from the Iranians themselves, and all them identified as Persian or with Persian culture, this especially true of the Safavids, and other dynasties that ruled the region. Maybe with the exception of the Ak and Qara who did use the name Turkmen. Uzun Hassan looks somewhat Turanid.

[random]

Persians usually like the Safavid but they hate the Qajars more than anything else because the Qajars lost many territories in Iran, as they lost all the Russo-Persian wars.

They tend to like the Safavid, Afsharid and the zand dynasties( Lur and persian)

[random]

I wonder why all them looked Caucasoid if they were Turkic? They don't look much different from the Iranians themselves, and all them identified as Persian or with Persian culture, this especially true of the Safavids, and other dynasties that ruled the region. Maybe with the exception of the Ak and Qara who did use the name Turkmen. Uzun Hassan looks somewhat Turanid.

Oghuz turks are predominantly Caucasoid, how many times do I have to repeat that ? and no you can't classify him based on 15th century painting.

[Xanthias]

Since when do Turkic tribes come from Iran ?

Your mongrel race has orriginated south-east Kazakhstan (along with another well hated mongrel race - the Huns -), they ain't native Turkish tribes in Iran.

[StonyArabia]

They tend to like the Safavid, Afsharid and the zand dynasties( Lur and persian)

Zand was ok, the first two should have never had their feet in our lands.

[Alphawolf]

My favourite song from an iranian Turk.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChgUJEfYIRs

[Sky earth]

I wonder why all them looked Caucasoid if they were Turkic? They don't look much different from the Iranians themselves, and all them identified as Persian or with Persian culture, this especially true of the Safavids, and other dynasties that ruled the region. Maybe with the exception of the Ak and Qara who did use the name Turkmen. Uzun Hassan looks somewhat Turanid.

I read somewhere that Qajars are J1 carriers which has nothing to do with Turkic peoples and that they came originally from the Caucasus.

[random]

Zand was ok, the first two should have never had their feet in our lands.

Dude get over yourself nobody cares about your lands now.

[Sky earth]

Zand was ok, the first two should have never had their feet in our lands.

The Zand dynasty was ironically Kurdish Nabatea. The firrst true Iranian dynasty after centuries of Turkic dominance

[random]

I read somewhere that Qajars are J1 carriers which has nothing to do with Turkic peoples and that they came originally from the Caucasus.

Source ? j1 is found in turkmenistan too btw.

[random]

The Zand dynasty was ironically Kurdish Nabatea. The firrst true Iranian dynasty after centuries of Turkic dominance


Lurs are not kurds.

[StonyArabia]

I read somewhere that Qajars are J1 carriers which has nothing to do with Turkic peoples and that they came originally from the Caucasus.

Interesting, they probably came from Dagestan,or the very north areas of Azerbaijan since this where the Y-lineage does peak.So their Caucasian origins seem to be well established.

[Sky earth]

Source ? j1 is found in turkmenistan too btw.

I know that J2 is common in Turkmenistan but I don't think that J1 has a significant pressence there.

[random]

I know that J2 is common in Turkmenistan but I don't think that J1 has a significant pressence there.

sorry, I meant central asia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/HG_J1_(ADN-Y).PNG

[StonyArabia]

sorry, I meant central asia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/HG_J1_(ADN-Y).PNG

The Qajar J1 was probably Caucasian version, btw which has very little to do with the Arabian one. I don't know if the Turkmens tested would show it. But it would makes sense for a group of people who come from the Caucasus to have a Caucasian Y-lineage regardless of the language they speak, since languages do change but not the genetics of the population at least not greatly.

[gültekin]

Turkish Boy-Girl Students of Tabriz University Protest Irans fashizm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pYP3PVjk3k

[Sky earth]

sorry, I meant central asia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/HG_J1_(ADN-Y).PNG

As for the Qajar haplogroup. Go to Wiki and search for "list of haplogroups of notable people". Then go to the contests and click to Fath Ali Shah Qajar. There you can see his haplogroup

[random]

Since when do Turkic tribes come from Iran ?

Your mongrel race has orriginated south-east Kazakhstan (along with another well hated mongrel race - the Huns -), they ain't no native Turkish tribes in Iran.

http://media.giphy.com/media/BMIjBCRvZUS76/giphy.gif

[Sky earth]

The Khwarazmian empire had a really terrible fate, when the Mongols and Ghegnis Khan sacked and invaded the most important and biggest cities of the Khwarazmian dynasty like Merv, Bukhara, Urgench or the capital Samarkand. These cities were culturally very important for the Islamic world. They were one of the most developed cities in the whole world in that time with many libraries and mosques. All the buildings were destroyed and all inhabitans were killed. Merv in modern Turkmenistan was a megacity and it had a Population of 1.2 million and the Mongols massacred the whole city and its inhabitans in 1 day!!!. Scholars estimate that 85% of the former population of the Khwaremian dynasty were killed

[random]

The Khwarazmian empire had a really terrible fate, when the Mongols and Ghegnis Khan sacked and invaded the most important and biggest cities of the Khwarazmian dynasty like Merv, Bukhara, Urgench or the capital Samarkand. These cities were culturally very important for the islamic world

The Turks in iran eventually took their revenge and pushed them back to central asia under Uzun Hassan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Qarabagh

[Sky earth]

The Turks in iran eventually took their revenge and pushed them back to central asia under Uzun Hassan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Qarabagh

The Timurids themselves were mainly Turkic and spoke Chagatay Turkic in their court. However the Mongols couldn't invade India because they lost many battles against the Turkic ruler of the Muslim Delhi Sultanate Alauddin Khilji.

[random]

The Timurids themselves were mainly Turkic and spoke Chagatay Turkic in their court. However the Mongols couldn't invade India because they lost against the Turkic ruler of the Muslim Delhi Sultanate Alauddin Khilji.

They were mainly turko-mongol. Timur the founder of their dynasty was from the Barlas mongol tribe.
They also couldn't invade invade Egypt because the Turkic mamluks stopped them.

[Sky earth]

They were mainly turko-mongol. Timur the founder of their dynasty was from the Barlas mongol tribe.
They also couldn't invade invade Egypt because the Turkic mamluks stopped them.

Yes I know that Timurs ancestors were originally Mongols who intermingled with the local Turkic population and got Turkicized in terms of habits and language but you must also consider that Aq Qoyunlus or Kara Qoyunlus have also mixed with Iranians and Caucasian populations.

[random]

Yes I know that Timurs ancestors were originally Mongols who intermingled with the local Turkic population and got Turkicized in terms of habits and language but you must also consider that Aq Qoyunlus or Kara Qoyunlus have also mixed with Iranians and Caucasian populations.

At that time ? I don't think so. They were mainly nomadic and there is no proof that they did mix with caucasians or iranians. Also There is no evidence that they turkifed a huge number of people. I don't think settled Iranian or Caucasian villagers would change there lifestyle and become nomadic. I believe that the oghuz tribes were genetically very close to the region in the first place.

I've read that some Persian and Lur nomads joined the qashqai confederation voluntary though, but not in huge numbers and they also have their own clans.

[StonyArabia]

The Khwarazmian empire had a really terrible fate, when the Mongols and Ghegnis Khan sacked and invaded the most important and biggest cities of the Khwarazmian dynasty like Merv, Bukhara, Urgench or the capital Samarkand. These cities were culturally very important for the Islamic world. They were one of the most developed cities in the whole world in that time with many libraries and mosques. All the buildings were destroyed and all inhabitans were killed. Merv in modern Turkmenistan was a megacity and it had a Population of 1.2 million and the Mongols massacred the whole city and its inhabitans in 1 day!!!. Scholars estimate that 85% of the former population of the Khwaremian dynasty were killed

They did the same in Iraq, this why it became a depopulated and desertified when it was green, they destroyed the irrigation system and the House of Wisdom where they threw the books to the rivers that became black like ink. Arab chronicles mention most of the people fled to Egypt and India. Sad what they did to the Middle Eastern civilization, also the backwardness is largely their legacy in the region as well.

[Sky earth]

At that time ? I don't think so. They were mainly nomadic and there is no proof that they did mix with caucasians or iranians. Also There is no evidence that they turkifed a huge number of people. I don't think settled Iranian or Caucasian villagers would change there lifestyle and become nomadic. I believe that the oghuz tribes were genetically very close to the region in the first place.

Nomads or semi-nomads who assimilated local sedentary people isn't rare in history. The same happened with the culturally highly developed Romance speakers in the Balkans when almost all of them were linguistically Slaviczed by the Slavs. The Oghuz were already mixed with the Iranian Scythians like any Turkic group in CA.

And how can you explain why Iranian Azeris cluster genetically closer with Persians or Kurds than rather with Turkmens? Because the Oghuz mixed with the Iranian population since they arrived there in the 10th century. You musn't forget that medieval Iran was ruled mainly by Turkic dynasties.

I divide Turkic peoples in two categories: those who mixed with Scythians, Caucasians and other Indo-Europeans (Oghuz Turks, Tatars) and those who mixed with Mongolic groups ( Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Nogais, Yakuts)

Oh and Uzbeks and Uighurs are a mix of those groups!

[random]

They did the same in Iraq, this why it became a depopulated and desertified when it was green, they destroyed the irrigation system and the House of Wisdom where they threw the books to the rivers that became black like ink. Arab chronicles mention most of the people fled to Egypt and India. Sad what they did to the Middle Eastern civilization, also the backwardness is largely their legacy in the region as well.

You can't blame everything on the mongols. The mongols destroyed a lot of modern Iran and Turkey and a lot of strong empires were based in these countries after the mongol invasion. They managed to brush it off but arabs never had an empire in the region again.

[random]

Nomads or semi-nomads who assimilated local sedentary people isn't rare in history. The same happened with the culturally highly developed Romance speakers in the Balkans when almost all of them were linguistically Slaviczed by the Slavs. The Oghuz were already mixed with the Iranian Scythians like any Turkic group in CA.

And how can you explain why Iranian Azeris cluster genetically closer with Persians or Kurds than rather with Turkmens? Because the Oghuz mixed with the Iranian population since they arrived there in the 10th century. You musn't forget that medieval Iran was ruled mainly by Turkic dynasties.

I dont believe that modern turkmen in turkmenistan are " pure " oghuz, A lot of turko mongol tribes settled modern day turkmenistan and mixid with the locals. The Mongols didn't largely mix with other oghuz turks though( they didn't settle in the region after the 1400s). I believe that the original oghuz were genetically related to iranian and other other west asians even before they came to west asia. The difference is that Turks have mongoloid admix and other west asians don't.

[Sky earth]

I dont believe that modern turkmen in turkmenistan are " pure " oghuz, A lot of turko mongol tribes settled modern day turkmenistan and mixid with the locals. The Mongols didn't largely mix with other oghuz turks though( they didn't settle in the region after the 1400s). I believe that the original oghuz were genetically related to iranian and other other west asian even before they came to west asia. The difference is that Turks have mongoloid admix and other west asians don't.

The Mongoloid admix of Turks is ancient because we came originally from Mongolia, where we mixed with Mongoloid groups. But as Turks wandered westwards they met with the Iranian Sogdians and Scythians and intermingled with them so that our Mongoloid mixture got diluted as our ancestors have started to mix only with Caucasoid folks. The question here is if the first Turks were more Mongoloid or Caucasoid. Historians reported Caucasoid as well as Mongoloid features for different Turkic groups.

[random]

The Mongoloid admix of Turks is ancient because we came originally from Mongolia, where we mixed with Mongoloid groups. But as Turks wandered westwards they met with the Iranian Sogdians and Scythians and intermingled with them so that our Mongoloid mixture got diluted as our ancestors have started to mix only with Caucasoid folks. The question here is if the first Turks were more Mongoloid or Caucasoid. Historians reported Caucasoid as well as Mongoloid features for different Turkic groups.

I do believe that some mixing happened with other nomadic tribes but a lot of people try to exaggerate it.


The question here is if the first Turks were more Mongoloid or Caucasoid. Historians reported Caucasoid as well as Mongoloid features for different Turkic groups. We'll probably never know.

[Sky earth]

I do believe that some mixing happened with other nomadic tribes but a lot of people try to exaggerate it.

We'll probably never know.

I find it strange that almost all people say that Turks and Azeris are not pure Turks because they're a mixed bunch. They think that a real Turkic must look like a Yakut but they don't consider it that 30% of the Yakut language consists of Mongolic words.

Look at the Kyrgyz. Their ancestors were described by everyone as tall with blue eyes and blonde hair. The modern Kyrgyz population is mainly Mongoloid now because they mixed with Mongols. The Turkification of Mongols is ingored by many peoples.

[Danishmend]

I find it strange that almost all people say that Turks and Azeris are not pure Turks because they're a mixed bunch. They think that a real Turkic must look like a Yakut but they don't consider it that 30% of the Yakut language consists of Mongolic words.

Yakut has the least amount of proto-Turkic words among the Turkic languages (even less than Anatolian and Azerbaijani Turkish) as far as i know and at the same time they have the least amount of caucasoid admixture, coincidence?

[Sky earth]

Yakut has the least amount of proto-Turkic words among the Turkic languages (even less than Anatolian and Azerbaijani Turkish) as far as i know and at the same time they have the least amount of caucasoid admixture, coincidence?

The Chuvash language has the least amount of Common Turkic words, so that many scholars and linguists saw the Chuvash language formerly more as Turkicized Finno-Ugric language.

[StonyArabia]

You can't blame everything on the mongols. The mongols destroyed a lot of modern Iran and Turkey and a lot of strong empires were based in these countries after the mongol invasion. They managed to brush it off but arabs never had an empire in the region again.

After the Mongol invasion, there was several Arab empires but none of them were as powerful as the Ummyad and Abbassids, but there was one that became on their league the Fatamid empire, which also saw the rebirth of civilization and culture in the region, after the Mongol and Timurid mayhem in the Middle East. However a lot of small fragmented Arab states were eventually gobbled up by the Seljuk Turks. It was in the South that one of the most powerful Arab empires arose that was the Omani empire which stretched from the Eastern coast of Arabia all the way into Balochistan and to Eastern Africa, sadly they did not expand northwards. Although the Ayyubids and Mamlukes were true patrons of Arab culture unlike the Ottomans who were a Persianate.

[random]

I find it strange that almost all people say that Turks and Azeris are not pure Turks because they're a mixed bunch. They think that a real Turkic must look like a Yakut but they don't consider it that 30% of the Yakut language consists of Mongolic words.

Look at the Kyrgyz. Their ancestors were described by everyone as tall with blue eyes and blonde hair. The modern Kyrgyz population is mainly Mongoloid now because they mixed with Mongols. The Turkification of Mongols is ingored by many peoples.

All people are mixid technically.

I stumbled on this page when I was reading about turan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tur_(son_of_Fereydun)

Tur (Tur – son of Fereydun) is a character in the Persian epic Shahnameh. He is the second son of the legendary Iranian king Fereydun and brother of both Salm and Iraj. His name, meaning "brave", was given to him by his father when the young prince bravely fights the dragon that had attacked him and his brothers. When Fereydun divides his empire among his sons, he gives Turkistan and China to his second son Tur. This is the beginning of the nation of Turan, the neighbor and rival of the Iranians. Some of the most important characters of Shahnameh, such as Afrasiab, are his descendants.

[random]

After the Mongol invasion, there was several Arab empires but none of them were as powerful as the Ummyad and Abbassids, but there was one that became on their league the Fatamid empire, which also saw the rebirth of civilization and culture in the region, after the Mongol and Timurid mayhem in the Middle East. However a lot of small fragmented Arab states were eventually gobbled up by the Seljuk Turks. It was in the South that one of the most powerful Arab empires arose that was the Omani empire which stretched from the Eastern coast of Arabia all the way into Balochistan and to Eastern Africa, sadly they did not expand northwards. Although the Ayyubids and Mamlukes were true patrons of Arab culture unlike the Ottomans who were a Persianate.

It was mainly based on the slave trade, it was a regional power not a supper power like the Ummyads and Abbassids imo.

[StonyArabia]

It was mainly based on the slave trade, it was a regional power not a supper power like the Ummyads and Abbassids imo.

Well it could be, but the British only gained over power when it weakened colonized the region. The same can be said about the Safavid empire which was just regional power and not superpower and was based on religious militancy. You should not ignore the Fatamids who were superpower of their time and far more tolerant toward others than the Safavid empire.

[random]

Well it could be, but the British only gained over power when it weakened colonized the region. The same can be said about the Safavid empire which was just regional power and not superpower and was based on religious militancy. You should not ignore the Fatamids who were superpower of their time and far more tolerant toward others than the Safavid empire.


I'm not comparing empires here. The main point was that Arabs didn't manage to pull their shut together and create a decent strong state after the seljuq and mongol invasions.

[StonyArabia]

I'm not comparing empires here. The main point was that Arabs didn't manage to pull their shut together and create a decent strong state after the seljuq and mongol invasions.

I told you the Fatamids came after the Mongols, it was powerful and tolerant, unlike the Safavids who were not, although most of the Arab states were were weak and gobbled up by the Seljuks and after that the Ottomans exception being Oman and Morocco. In fact the Safavids are highly resented across the Arab world for being responsible for creating stagnation in the region and making Iraq into a battleground since they always harassed the Ottomans and the Arab tribes there. Not mention their intolerance to others in the region especially the Arabs of Mosul, Baghdad and Basra. Sure the Safavid might have been a strong regional power but they were intolerant religious militant empire, unlike the Fatamids ironically also a Shia empire, the Fatamids are respected and seen to be one of the leading and third important Arab empire. Safavids lack respect and for good reason.

[random]

I told you the Fatamids came after the Mongols, it was powerful and tolerant, unlike the Safavids who were not, although most of the Arab states were were weak and gobbled up by the Seljuks and after that the Ottomans exception being Oman and Morocco. In fact the Safavids are highly resented across the Arab world for being responsible for creating stagnation in the region and making Iraq into a battleground since they always harassed the Ottomans and the Arab tribes there. Not mention their intolerance to others in the region especially the Arabs of Mosul, Baghdad and Basra. Sure the Safavid might have been a strong regional power but they were intolerant religious militant empire, unlike the Fatamids ironically also a Shia empire, the Fatamids are respected and seen to be one of the leading and third important Arab empire. Safavids lack respect and for good reason.

Wrong. The mongol invasions started in 1206. They reached baghdad in 1258 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimid_Caliphate 909–1171

Okay we get it you hate the Safavids.

[StonyArabia]

Wrong. The mongol invasions started in 1206. They reached baghdad in 1258 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimid_Caliphate 909–1171

Okay we get it you hate the Safavids.

I admit i was wrong, aside from Omani empire and the Moroccan Emirate which were independent and entities on their own right. However the Fatamid dynasty represents the third Arab empire where it civilization, high culture, and tolerance were valued. Not only that the Fatamid empire was a world power to be reckoned with. After the Ummyad and Abbassid. Also the Fatamids were ahead of their time. The Safavids not really and were not tolerant at all. If one compares the Fatamids to them it's clearly the Fatamid win on every level from military, Political diplomacy, and cultural and religious pluralism those are facts.

[random]

I admit i was wrong, aside from Omani empire and the Moroccan Emirate which were independent and entities on their own right. However the Fatamid dynasty represents the third Arab empire where it civilization, high culture, and tolerance were valued. Not only that the Fatamid empire was a world power to be reckoned with. After the Ummyad and Abbassid. Also the Fatamids were ahead of their time. The Safavids not really and were not tolerant at all. If one compares the Fatamids to them it's clearly the Fatamid win on every level from military, Political diplomacy, and cultural and religious pluralism those are facts.

Like a typical arab nationalist you forgot/ignore the huge Persian and berber influence in the Abbasid and the Fatimid Caliphates. They weren't Fully Arab.

[StonyArabia]

Like a typical arab nationalist you forgot/ignore the huge Persian and berber influence in the Abbasid and the Fatimid Caliphates. They weren't Fully Arab.

I am not really an Arab nationalist. Sure there was, but the people who founded those empire were of Arabian stock, and it was largely shaped by Arabian culture. The Safavids did not even utilize the civilization around them, they did have Persian influence but so did the Ottomans. They were both Persianate which lacked Arabian culture which can be found and seen through the Fatamid, Abbassid and Ummyad empires/Caliphtes. The Safavid themselves would then relay on Arabs to spread the Shia faith and bring Shiaism to the mainstream public.

[random]

I am not really an Arab nationalist. Sure there was, but the people who founded those empire were of Arabian stock, and it was largely shaped by Arabian culture. The Safavids did not even utilize the civilization around them, they did have Persian influence but so did the Ottomans. They were both Persianate which lacked Arabian culture which can be found and seen through the Fatamid, Abbassid and Ummyad empires/Caliphtes. The Safavid themselves would then relay on Arabs to spread the Shia faith and bring Shiaism to the mainstream public.

You keep denying historical facts and you seem to have your own version of history. It's either you are really really dumb or Trolling.

"Among the Berber Kutama, the people of Algeria, in 899 Ubayd Allah al-Mahdi Billah, the 11th Imam, became leader of the movement. He fled Middle East from his enemies to Sijilmasa in Morocco (905), where he started proselytizing under the guise of being a merchant.

The Fatimid military was based largely on the Kutama Berber tribesmen brought along on the march to Egypt, and they remained an important part of the military even after Tunisia began to break away.

The Fatimid caliphate was also distinguished by the central role of Berbers in its initial establishment and development especially on military and political levels. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimid_Caliphate

Abu Muslim khorasani The Abbasid general, who led the Abbasid Revolution (Iranian). The abbasids mainly relied on Non-arabs muslims and turkic soldiers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Muslim_Khorasani

[StonyArabia]

You keep denying historical facts and you seem to have your own version of history. It's either you are really really dumb or Trolling.

"Among the Berber Kutama, the people of Algeria, in 899 Ubayd Allah al-Mahdi Billah, the 11th Imam, became leader of the movement. He fled Middle East from his enemies to Sijilmasa in Morocco (905), where he started proselytizing under the guise of being a merchant.

The Fatimid military was based largely on the Kutama Berber tribesmen brought along on the march to Egypt, and they remained an important part of the military even after Tunisia began to break away.

The Fatimid caliphate was also distinguished by the central role of Berbers in its initial establishment and development especially on military and political levels. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimid_Caliphate

Abu Muslim khorasani The Abbasid general, who led the Abbasid Revolution (Iranian). The abbasids mainly relied on Non-arabs muslims and turkic soldiers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Muslim_Khorasani

Ok whatever bro, i said they had influence so. I never denied this i said the people who shaped those empires were of Arabian stock and they were patrons of Arab culture. Although some say the Fatamids were an Arabized Berber dynasty what ever their origin is they were people who valued Arabian culture, tradition, and literature.

The Abbassid did have a Persian influence yes, but they were not Persians and again patron of Arab culture but some Iranian influence existed.

At the end of the day both were greater than the Safavids who did nothing but trouble and stagnation of the ME to degree and using Iraq as gym battle.

[random]

That's why Ottoman soldiers have nice night with Safavid women when their men fleeing:D

Ottomans VS turkics in Iran wars were completely useless. Both sides suffered heavy losses. Both empires should've joined forces against european empires but thanks to islam (shias vs sunnis) that didn't happen.
It's good that all modern day turkic states are secular.

[random]

During the qajar period:

"The majority of infantry troops were of Turkish-speaking origin, with 26 regiments of Azeris from Azerbaijan and 16 regiments of Turkish-speaking recruits drafted in other provinces. Kurds and Lurs provided 8, and Persians the remaining 30 regiments (Picot, p. 112)."

30% of the country providing 42 of 80 regiment ( over 52%).

42 Turkic regiments
30 Persian regiments
8 Kurdish and Lur regiments

The Artillery (Topçu) units were almost entirely made-up of Azeri Turks.

[random]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Turkic_people_in_Iran.jpg

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

The Khwarazmian empire had a really terrible fate, when the Mongols and Ghegnis Khan sacked and invaded the most important and biggest cities of the Khwarazmian dynasty like Merv, Bukhara, Urgench or the capital Samarkand. These cities were culturally very important for the Islamic world. They were one of the most developed cities in the whole world in that time with many libraries and mosques. All the buildings were destroyed and all inhabitans were killed. Merv in modern Turkmenistan was a megacity and it had a Population of 1.2 million and the Mongols massacred the whole city and its inhabitans in 1 day!!!. Scholars estimate that 85% of the former population of the Khwaremian dynasty were killed

Because some stupid city governer robbed the Great Khans karavan, killed the men , and Khwarazmian ruler was too proud of previous Khwarazmian victories over Karakitays , Karahanlı ,Gur, Iraq Selcuk he refused to surrender the offender to Khan ,instead he waged war over Golden Horde.
He didn't take an unknown Mongol chief serious and paid this mistake very dearly

that governers name: Inalcık .

I don't understand why historical events cannot be explained without involving religion into it.
This happened as a result of pride , greed and bad strategy, not a war against Islam or whatever.

Step tribes had their own reasons to fight among themselves , These fights were mostly on territorial rivalry and " there should be only one khan under the sky ."principle

During the siege of Nişabur , Khan's son in law Tokuçar and during Bamyan siege his grandson Mütügen fell dead.
After this deaths, Cengiz Hans fury was incredible . Most Oğuz Turks were chased by Golden Horde ,

At the beginning of Golden Horde empire , southern Oguz Arslan Khan (Karluks) supported the Cengiz Khan but between western Oğuz and Golden horde is was a point brake, Western Oğuz had seperated from the rest of tribes after this event..to Iran , Anatolia and middleeast.

So this was more dramatic for us ,western Oğuz .All because of some city governers greed .

[StonyArabia]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Turkic_people_in_Iran.jpg

Just Persians posing as Turks

[Kiyant]

Because some stupid city governer robbed the Great Khans karavan , and Khwarazmian ruler was too proud of previous Khwarazmian victories over Karakitays , Karahanlı ,Gur, Iraq Selcuk he refused to surrender the offender to Khan ,instead he waged war over Golden Horde.
He didn't took an unknown Mongol chief serious and paid this mistake very dearly

that governers name: Inalcık .

I don't understand why historical events cannot be explained without involving religion into it.
This happened as a result of pride , greed and bad strategy, not a war against Islam or whatever.

Step tribes had their own reasons to fight among themselves , These fights were mostly on territorial rivalry and " there should be only one khan under the sky principle .."

During the siege of Nişabur , Khan's son in law Tokuçar and during Bamyan siege his grandson Mütügen fell dead.
After this deaths, Cengiz Hans fury was incredible . Most Oğuz Turks were chased by Golden Horde ,

At the beginning of Golden Horde empire , southern Oguz Arslan Khan (Karluks) supported the Cengiz Khan but between western Oğuz and Golden horde is was a point brake, Western Oğuz had seperated from the rest of tribes after this event..to Iran , Anatolia and middleeast.

So this was more dramatic for us ,western Oğuz .All because of some city governers greed .

True

[Danishmend]

Just Persians posing as Turks

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2014/03/updated-eurogenes-k13-population.html

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQYlllbnBud2lpTk0/edit?pli=1

It doesn't seem so. Our shared Oghuz ancestry makes us cluster together on davidski's dendrogram
http://i.hizliresim.com/1PgbnN.png (http://hizliresim.com/1PgbnN)

[random]

Just Persians posing as Turks

Persians and Turks are historically (and currently) more important that Bedouins.

Your biggest achievement in the last 800 years is backstabbing the ottomans lol

[StonyArabia]

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2014/03/updated-eurogenes-k13-population.html

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQYlllbnBud2lpTk0/edit?pli=1

It doesn't seem so. Our shared Oghuz ancestry makes us cluster together on dendrogram
http://i.hizliresim.com/1PgbnN.png (http://hizliresim.com/1PgbnN)

This might be partially true, but Anatolian Turks have different cluster, well Turkic tribes in Iran cluster with Kurds and Persians, because they are just Persian/Kurds who shifted their language. This not to mention many of them don't differ from the average Persian in looks or even culture.

[random]

You live in Kuwait, so why don't go back to Iran if it's so great.

I live in the US you idiot. You can ask the mods to check my IP address.

[Alphawolf]

This might be partially true, but Anatolian Turks have different cluster, well Turkic tribes in Iran cluster with Kurds and Persians, because they are just Persian/Kurds who shifted their language. This not to mention many of them don't differ from the average Persian in looks or even culture.

Stop that nonsens, please.

[random]

Stop that nonsens, please.


He's obsessed with turkic people. He's just another troll, we should all ignore him tbh.

[Danishmend]

This might be partially true, but Anatolian Turks have different cluster, well Turkic tribes in Iran cluster with Kurds and Persians, because they are just Persian/Kurds who shifted their language. This not to mention many of them don't differ from the average Persian in looks or even culture.

So you choose to ignore the powerful Turkoman clans of the Savafid Empire such as Ustadjalu, Rumlu, Shamlu, Dulkadir, Afshar, Tekeli and Varsak who gave rise to what is now Azerbaijani nation?

[StonyArabia]

I live in the US you idiot.

Whatever bro. Just remember Caucasians like Circassians/Georgians were often used as the military force. Also remember Bedouins from Iraq and Eastern Saudi who gave you the religion, as well the Southern Lebanese. They acted as missionaries.

[random]

So you choose to ignore the powerful Turkoman clans of the Savafid Empire such as Ustadjalu, Rumlu, Shamlu, Dulkadir, Afshar, Tekeli, Varsak and Qajar who gave rise to what is now Azerbaijani nation?

NO They were turkified by Ataturk :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[StonyArabia]

So you choose to ignore the powerful Turkoman clans of the Savafid Empire such as Ustadjalu, Rumlu, Shamlu, Dulkadir, Afshar, Tekeli and Varsak who gave rise to what is now Azerbaijani nation?

They look Iranid not Turanid or like the real Turkomans, who looked Turanid-Mongoloid. This means is that they switched their languages. The Safavid themselves were of Kurdish origins and it believed many of the Qizilbash were of Kurdish origins, and also many of the Turkish ones cluster with Kurds and Persians, well mainstream Sunni Turks cluster close to Kavkazians or Balkanoids

[random]

Whatever bro. Just remember Caucasians like Circassians/Georgians were often used as the military force. Also remember Bedouins from Iraq and Eastern Saudi who gave you the religion, as well the Southern Lebanese. They acted as missionaries.
During the qajar period:

"The majority of infantry troops were of Turkish-speaking origin, with 26 regiments of Azeris from Azerbaijan and 16 regiments of Turkish-speaking recruits drafted in other provinces. Kurds and Lurs provided 8, and Persians the remaining 30 regiments (Picot, p. 112)."

30% of the country providing 42 of 80 regiment ( over 52%).

42 Turkic regiments
30 Persian regiments
8 Kurdish and Lur regiments

The Artillery (Topçu) units were almost entirely made-up of Azeri Turks.

Your people weren't important in the qajar army. Get over yourself.

[StonyArabia]

The Shamlu were just Turkified Levantine Arabs, same with the Masuli who were Turkified Iraqi Arabs(thus Turkified Bedouins).

[Alphawolf]

Bunun Arab oldugu bana pek inandirici gelmiyor. Iranlilar gibi biraz oynak davranislari var. ;)

[random]

The Shamlu were just Turkified Levantine Arabs, same with the Masuli who were Turkified Iraqi Arabs(thus Turkified Bedouins).

Again, claiming stuff with no evidence is called trolling.

[Danishmend]

They look Iranid not Turanid or like the real Turkomans, who looked Turanid-Mongoloid. This means is that they switched their languages. The Safavid themselves were of Kurdish origins and it believed many of the Qizilbash were of Kurdish origins

Nonsense, most of the Turkoman clans i mentioned in my previous post were originally from Anatolia (Rumlu clan for example, was named after the Rum eyalet in Anatolia), they responded to the invitation of Shah Ismail and migrated eastward to Azerbaijan and Northern Iran. Savafids were not Kurdish either

[StonyArabia]

During the qajar period:

"The majority of infantry troops were of Turkish-speaking origin, with 26 regiments of Azeris from Azerbaijan and 16 regiments of Turkish-speaking recruits drafted in other provinces. Kurds and Lurs provided 8, and Persians the remaining 30 regiments (Picot, p. 112)."

30% of the country providing 42 of 80 regiment ( over 52%).

42 Turkic regiments
30 Persian regiments
8 Kurdish and Lur regiments

The Artillery (Topçu) units were almost entirely made-up of Azeri Turks.

Your people weren't important in the qajar army. Get over yourself.

In the Safavid times Circassian/Georgians played significant role in military and many consorts were often of Circassian origins.

ho from the time of Shah Ṭahmāsb (930-84/1524-76) played an important political role (see ii, below). Though less numerous than Georgian ones, Čarkas commanders rose to important posts, and the women were common in royal and aristocratic harems. Some Caucasians were settled on the land.

The Safavids introduced a considerable number of Caucasian elements into the Persian society, either as prisoners of war or as population segments relocated by force, for instance, the Čarkas tribe of Fārs mentioned in Fasāʾī’s Fārs-nāma about the turn of this century (II, p. 331). Between 947/1540 and 961/1553, Shah Ṭahmāsb (930-84/1524-76) led four expeditions to the Caucasus. In the course of these campaigns, Čarkas prisoners, as well as Georgians and Armenians, were taken in large numbers and were brought back to Persia. The majority of the prisoners were women and children (Eskandar Beg, I, pp. 84-88; tr. Savory, I, pp. 139-46), and many of them were introduced into the court. The men were employed as royal pages (ḡolām), while some of the women were married to the king or the princes. Shah Ṭahmāsb had several wives from the Caucasus, and, of his nine sons who reached adolescence, at least five were of Caucasian mothers, four Georgians (Eskandar Beg, I, pp. 133-34, tr. Savory, I, pp. 215-17) and one Čarkas (Eskandar Beg, I, p. 133, tr. Savory, I, p. 215). Gradually they grew into a powerful faction, which at the time of Ṭahmāsb’s death (984/1576) was vying with the qezelbāš for power (Savory, pp. 67-68). The court was the scene of numerous intrigues involving the ladies of the royal harem, each of whom, supported by her ethnic faction, tried to place her own candidate on the throne.

A very influential figure in the middle of the 10th/16th century, from the latter half of the reign of Ṭahmāsb to the beginning of the reign of Solṭān-Moḥammad Ḵodābanda, was Parī-ḵān Khanom, daughter of the Čarkas woman, Solṭān-Āḡā Khanom (Qomī, p. 671 ), a wife of Ṭahmāsb. She was “more intelligent than the other royal princesses” and “her opinion and counsel were valued by her father” (Eskandar Beg, I, p. 119; tr. Savory, I, p. 199). She was once engaged to a cousin, but as the marriage was never consummated she was constantly in attendance on her father (ibid., I, p. 135; tr. Savory, I, p. 218). A Čarkas party formed around her and her brother, Solaymān Mīrzā, and her uncle, Šamḵāl Solṭān. Her residence (manāzel), which was so large that Shah ʿAbbās later used it as a temporary palace just after his coronation at Qazvīn (ibid., I, p. 380), was next to the garden (bāḡča) of the royal harem, and she could enter the palace freely (Eskandar Beg, I, pp. 192-93, tr. Savory, l, pp. 283-84, 337).

Parī-ḵān Khanom acted as a king-maker in two instances. Once she worked to promote the succession of Esmāʿīl Mīrzā upon the death of Shah Ṭahmāsb (984/1576). Having detested the Georgian mother of Ḥaydar Mīrzā, who had been a favorite son of Ṭahmāsb and regarded as heir apparent, she gave the keys to the royal palace to her maternal uncle, Šamḵāl Solṭān, who took control of the palace immediately and filled it with 300 Čarkas. Her plot succeeded, and Ḥaydar Mīrzā was murdered by some assassins among whom was Jamšīd Beg, a Čarkas ḡolām of Solṭān Solaymān Mīrzā (ibid., I, pp. 192, 195; tr. Savory, I, pp. 83-84, 288-89). But the new king, Esmāʿīl II (984/1576), was not the man she had expected. To the amirs who made it a habit to call at the house of Parī-ḵān Khanom even after his accession he said, “the interference in matters of state by women is demeaning to the king’s honor” (ibid., p. 201; tr. Savory, p.298). After this declaration, the amirs ceased to visit her.

Esmāʿīl was killed after less than two years. According to Eskandar Beg, one possible explanation for his murder is that Parī-ḵān Khanom “had conspired with maidservants of the harem to arrange that poison be inserted in the electuary mixture” (falūnīā; ibid., I, p. 219; tr. Savory, I, p. 327). In view of her habitual attachment to the political power, his theory is not impossible. In any event, she was effectively the sovereign after her brother’s death, shouldering the responsibility for the conduct of state affairs (ibid., I, p. 223; tr. Savory, I, pp. 333-34).

Solṭān-Moḥammad Ḵodābanda, the next king she put on the throne, had become aware of the dangerous influences of Parī-ḵān Khanom and her Čarkas group on state affairs and had decided to eliminate her party. On the very day of their entrance to the capital, Qazvīn, they ordered the execution of the princess and her uncle, Šamḵāl (ibid., I, pp. 226-27; tr. Savory, I, p. 337).

With the death of Parī-ḵān Khanom, the intervention of the Čarkas in the political arena of the Safavids was suspended for a time, but it did not cease. During the reign of ʿAbbās I, Farhād Beg, a Čarkas favorite (moqarrab) of the shah who had begun his career as a falconer (gūščī) and had been promoted to the office of “chief of the hunt” (amīr-e šekār) was suspected of forming a seditious relationship with the shah’s eldest son, Moḥammad-Bāqer Ṣafī Mīrzā, whose mother was a Čarkas. The shah handed Farhād Beg to the prince, who, to show his loyalty, ordered that he be put to death immediately and his property confiscated (1023/1614). Soon after this execution, however, a Čarkas ḡolām, Ūzūn Behbūd Beg, murdered the prince by the order of the shah, who feared the popularity of the young prince (ibid., II, pp. 881, 884-85; tr. Savory, II, pp. 1096, 1099; Falsafī, II, pp. 175-80). Contrary to the general image of the ḡolāms as being faithful and loyal to the shah, such incidents of treachery were not uncommon, even just after the initiation of the ḡolām system by Shah ʿAbbās. This is one of the reasons the system did not function well.

Among other Čarkas during the period of Shah ʿAbbās, we can cite the name of Qazāq Khan. He was appointed amīr al-omarāʾ of the Šīrvān in 1034/ 1624-25 and led the Qezelbāš (Qarāmānlū and Ḵeneslū) following the new policy of the shah of putting a ḡolām commander over troops of the Qezelbāš to diminish their political influence.

During the last days of Shah Solṭān-Ḥosayn (1105-35/1694-1722) and his nephew, Loṭf-ʿAlī Khan, the talented vizier Fatḥ-ʿAlī Khan Dāḡestānī, eʿtemād-al-dawla, exerted a strong influence on state affairs (Lockhart, pp. 106, 465-66).

http://www.iranicaonline.org/

[random]

@nabatea1 that doesn't make your people the most " important " part of the safavid Army. The whole army was multi ethnic but the majority were turkic.

[Ice]

The Mongoloid admix of Turks is ancient because we came originally from Mongolia, where we mixed with Mongoloid groups. But as Turks wandered westwards they met with the Iranian Sogdians and Scythians and intermingled with them so that our Mongoloid mixture got diluted as our ancestors have started to mix only with Caucasoid folks. The question here is if the first Turks were more Mongoloid or Caucasoid. Historians reported Caucasoid as well as Mongoloid features for different Turkic groups.

True.

[Rojava]

"West Azerbaijan" province can in no way be part of the first map you posted. The people east of lake Urmia are Azeris, and the people west of lake Urmia are Kurds. And that's the main border that divides the two people. The majority of the province is demographically Kurdish.

[Graine]

Persians and Turks are historically (and currently) more important that Bedouins.

Your biggest achievement in the last 800 years is backstabbing the ottomans lolMost Saudis are not Bedouins, only 20% of Saudis are Bedouins.

Most people of the Arabian Peninsula aren't Bedouins. The people of the Arabian Peninsula have contributed far more to humanity than the Persians and Turks.

[random]

Most Saudis are not Bedouins, only 20% of Saudis are Bedouins.

Most people of the Arabian Peninsula aren't Bedouins. The people of the Arabian Peninsula have contributed far more to humanity than the Persians and Turks.

Are you kidding me ? that's very inaccurate. What's their biggest achievement ? Islam ? lol

[Graine]

Are you kidding me ? that's very inaccurate. What's their biggest achievement ? Islam ? lol Islam is the world's second biggest religion. The people of the Arabian Peninsula have Arabized hundreds of millions of people. If the Persians and Turks were so strong, why couldn't they Turkify and Persianize hundreds of millions, like the Arabs did?

Most people of the Arabian Peninsula aren't Bedouins.

[random]

Islam is the world's second biggest religion. The people of the Arabian Peninsula have Arabized hundreds of millions of people. If the Persians and Turks were so strong, why couldn't they Turkify and Persianize hundreds of millions, like the Arabs did?

Most people of the Arabian Peninsula aren't Bedouins.

And how does that contribute to humanity more than the Persians and Turks ?

[Graine]

And how does that contribute to humanity more than the Persians and Turks ?The Arabs have had a far greater impact in the world than Persians and Turks due to Islam and Arabization. Arab imperialism was more influential than Persian/Turk imperialism.

The notion that Arabs are uncivilized Bedouins is a myth. Levant Arabs, Iranians and North Africans are jealous of the oil wealth so they continue belittling GCC Arabs by claiming they're uncivilized Bedouins, reality is most GCC Arabs aren't bedouins

[StonyArabia]

The Arabs have had a far greater impact in the world than Persians and Turks due to Islam and Arabization. Arab imperialism was more influential than Persian/Turk imperialism.

The notion that Arabs are uncivilized Bedouins is a myth. Levant Arabs, Iranians and North Africans are jealous of the oil wealth so they continue belittling GCC Arabs by claiming they're uncivilized Bedouins, reality is most GCC Arabs aren't bedouins


We'll said but Bedouin is our ethnic identity but now it also refer to a lifestyle that the old communities among us keep.

[random]

The Arabs have had a far greater impact in the world than Persians and Turks due to Islam and Arabization. Arab imperialism was more influential than Persian/Turk imperialism.

The notion that Arabs are uncivilized Bedouins is a myth. Levant Arabs, Iranians and North Africans are jealous of the oil wealth so they continue belittling GCC Arabs by claiming they're uncivilized Bedouins, reality is most GCC Arabs aren't bedouins

You were talking about contributions to humanity not impact and influence. Most arab empires(abbasids, fatimids ) heavily relied on non-arabs. Most of these empires weren't based in the arabian peninsula too.

[Graine]

You were talking about contributions to humanity not impact and influence. Most arab empires(abbasids, fatimids ) heavily relied on non-arabs. Most of these empires weren't based in the arabian peninsula too.Impact and influence are interchangeable with contributions to humanity

Persians and Turks aren't historically and currently more important than Arabs.

[random]

Impact and influence are interchangeable with contributions to humanity

Persians and Turks aren't historically and currently more important than Arabs.

They are not interchangeable.

Wonderful logic. The mongols contributed to humanity the most then.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/MongolEmpire.jpg

how do gulf Arab countries have more impact currently on the world Than Iran and Turkey ?

[Graine]

They are not interchangeable.

Wonderful logic. The mongols contributed to humanity the most then.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/MongolEmpire.jpg

how do gulf Arab countries have more impact currently on the world Than Iran and Turkey ?They are interchangeable, its not just about Empires but linguistic, social and cultural influence

The GCC is currently just as important as Iran and Turkey, I didn't say the GCC is more important (I said, Turkey and Iran don't have more importance currently). Many GCC states are funding the world's biggest Wahhabi organizations and KSA successfully ''Wahhabized'' Pakistan and Afghanistan. Can Turkey or Iran import extremist versions of their cultures to large countries and successfully radicalize hundreds of millions of people?? The Wahhabi mentality is deeply ingrained in Afghanistan and Pakistan because GCC has alot of influence in the world. Qatar/MB had alot of influence in Egypt before the coup, Qatar practically owned Egypt before the coup.

[ButlerKing]

Yakut has the least amount of proto-Turkic words among the Turkic languages (even less than Anatolian and Azerbaijani Turkish) as far as i know and at the same time they have the least amount of caucasoid admixture, coincidence?

The least Caucasoid admixture Turkic group are these two Turkic siberian tribes who dominates the haplogroup Q Y-DNA


Chelkans in SIBERIA are turkic ethnic group and they have 60% of haplogroup Q


http://joshuaproject.net/profiles/photos/p13940.jpg

Tubalar in Siberia are turkic ethnic group in Northern altay they have 37% of haplogroup Q


http://joshuaproject.net/profiles/photos/p16024.jpg



Turkmen of Iran have 42.6% of haplogroup Q and racially they are 37% Mongoloid ( ranging from 19% to 59% )

[ButlerKing]

I dont believe that modern turkmen in turkmenistan are " pure " oghuz, A lot of turko mongol tribes settled modern day turkmenistan and mixid with the locals. The Mongols didn't largely mix with other oghuz turks though( they didn't settle in the region after the 1400s). I believe that the original oghuz were genetically related to iranian and other other west asians even before they came to west asia. The difference is that Turks have mongoloid admix and other west asians don't.


NO NO NO...... No doubt Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Uzbeks, Karakalpak, Crimean Tatars ect are result of Mongol admixture ( including persianized half Mongoloid Hazara's and Aimaq ) but Turkmen's don't.

Oghuz Turks were Mongoloid. Turkmen today are nothing but a mixture of Oghuz Turks and Iranic tribes


Facial reconstruction of Ancient Oghuz

http://oi45.tinypic.com/zmf75y.jpg


Who are the modern Turkmen?


Turkic and Iranian origin[edit]



Genetic studies on mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) restriction polymorphism confirmed that Turkmen were characterized by the presence of local Iranian mtDNA lineages, similar to the Eastern Iranian populations, but high male Mongoloid genetic component observed in Turkmens and Eastern Iranian populations with the frequencies of about 20%.[18] This most likely indicates an ancestral combination of Iranian groups and Turk that the modern Turkmen have inherited and which appears to correspond to the historical record which indicates that various Iranian tribes existed in the region prior to the migration of Turkic tribes who are believed to have merged with the local population and imparted their language and created something of a hybrid Turko-Iranian culture.




Turkmen have 0% of haplogroup C3 and O3


Why do Iranian Turkmen who have 42.6% Q but 0% C3 ?

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/WorldHaplogroupsMaps/TurkmenY_DNA_Iran.gif

And they still look like this.

http://www.yaoheng.info/autos/germany/A/Azizi,%20Khodadad.jpg
http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1436/1305972490_31c7abf361.jpg

[random]

NO NO NO...... No doubt Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Uzbeks, Karakalpak, Crimean Tatars ect are result of Mongol admixture ( including persianized half Mongoloid Hazara's and Aimaq ) but Turkmen's don't.

Oghuz Turks were Mongoloid. Turkmen today are nothing but a mixture of Oghuz Turks and Iranic tribes


Facial reconstruction of Ancient Oghuz

http://oi45.tinypic.com/zmf75y.jpg


Who are the modern Turkmen?


Turkic and Iranian origin[edit]



Genetic studies on mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) restriction polymorphism confirmed that Turkmen were characterized by the presence of local Iranian mtDNA lineages, similar to the Eastern Iranian populations, but high male Mongoloid genetic component observed in Turkmens and Eastern Iranian populations with the frequencies of about 20%.[18] This most likely indicates an ancestral combination of Iranian groups and Turk that the modern Turkmen have inherited and which appears to correspond to the historical record which indicates that various Iranian tribes existed in the region prior to the migration of Turkic tribes who are believed to have merged with the local population and imparted their language and created something of a hybrid Turko-Iranian culture.




Turkmen have 0% of haplogroup C3 and O3


Why do Iranian Turkmen who have 42.6% Q but 0% C3 ?

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/WorldHaplogroupsMaps/TurkmenY_DNA_Iran.gif

And they still look like this.

http://www.yaoheng.info/autos/germany/A/Azizi,%20Khodadad.jpg
http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1436/1305972490_31c7abf361.jpg

The football player is Hazara.

Those men are turkmen too, why didn't you post them ?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alijaber/1305946974/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alijaber/1305063601/in/photostream/

[ButlerKing]

I find it strange that almost all people say that Turks and Azeris are not pure Turks because they're a mixed bunch. They think that a real Turkic must look like a Yakut but they don't consider it that 30% of the Yakut language consists of Mongolic words.

Look at the Kyrgyz. Their ancestors were described by everyone as tall with blue eyes and blonde hair. The modern Kyrgyz population is mainly Mongoloid now because they mixed with Mongols. The Turkification of Mongols is ingored by many peoples.

No, red hair and green eyes

In Chinese sources, these Kyrgyz tribes were described as fair-skinned, green- or blue-eyed and red-haired people with a mixture of European and Mongol features.[18][19][20][21]


Here is your ancient Kyrgyz masks

http://club.sina.com.cn.sinastorage.com/09/11/25/1250372304_470bd189425f3e64ad9394c067f29830.jpg


The Turkficiation of Iranic people was also ignored by many, historically Turkmen and Uzbeks have absorbed millions of Persian slaves into their population



Abolition of slavery

The Russian administration liberated the slaves of the Kazakhs in 1859.[29] However, isolated abductions of Russians or Ukrainians by Kazakhs for the slave markets of Central Asia continued until the Tsars' conquest of Khiva and Bukhara in the 1860s.[30] At major markets in Bukhara, Samarkand, Karakul, Karshi and Charju, slaves consisted mainly of Iranians and Russians, and some Kalmuks; they were brought there by Turkmen, Kazakh and Kyrgyz.[31] A notorious slave market for captured Russian and Persian slaves was centered in the Khanate of Khiva from the 17th to the 19th century.[32] During the first half of the 19th century alone, some one million Persians, as well as an unknown number of Russians, were enslaved and transported to Central Asian khanates.[33][34] When the Russian troops took Khiva in 1873 there were 29,300 Persian slaves, captured by Turkoman raiders. According of Josef Wolff (Report of 1843–1845) the population of the Khanate of Bukhara was 1,200,000, of whom 200,000 were Persian slaves.[35]

[ButlerKing]

The football player is Hazara.

Those men are turkmen too, why don't you post them ?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alijaber/1305946974/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alijaber/1305063601/in/photostream/



My God that football player is Khodad Azizi :picard2:

I don't understand why idiot Hazara keep claiming him only because he looks more Mongoloid than average Turkmen and many Turkish imbicile seems to claim him as non-Turkic.


But Iranians already stated he calls himself a Turkmen and is part of Turkmen iran group, he was even born in the area where Turkmen lives today.


He is listed into the ethnic Turkmen people and is the pride of Iran Turkmen ( because his goal led Iran to qualify to the world cup for the first time since a very long time )

http://static4.shop.indiatimes.com/images/products/large/U9781157477365/books/miscellaneous/turkmen-people-khodadad-azizi-guwancmuhammet-owekow-ruslan-mingazow-azat-muhadow-berdi-amyradow-dowletmyrat-atayew-rejepmyrat-a.jpg


Iranian Turkmen can look just like him, it is pure ignorance of Turkmen Ethnic group. They are afterall from 1/5 Mongoloid to slightly over 1/2 Mongoloid. ( As low as 16.5% to as high as 58% Mongoloid )

http://mm.iteams.org/uploads/images/Central%20Asia/Turkman/Turkmen_Boy__Pakistan__CD1_46.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-esXGjNX_2DM/TgddaM9QWjI/AAAAAAAABI0/s0aJVR4kDdk/s1600/IMG_1988.JPG

[ButlerKing]

The football player is Hazara.

Those men are turkmen too, why didn't you post them ?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alijaber/1305946974/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/alijaber/1305063601/in/photostream/


Why should I? I never denied there was Caucasoid looking Turkmen in fact most look Caucasoid ( even though they are far from pure and are at least 1/5 to 1/4 Mongoloid ). Many Turkmen are also 30-40% Mongoloid, 40-50% Mongoloid to 50-60% Mongoloid and yet they have 0% Mongolian admixture.

Let's not forget a million Persian slaves were sold to modern day Central Asia from the 19th century

[ButlerKing]

I wonder why all them looked Caucasoid if they were Turkic? They don't look much different from the Iranians themselves, and all them identified as Persian or with Persian culture, this especially true of the Safavids, and other dynasties that ruled the region. Maybe with the exception of the Ak and Qara who did use the name Turkmen. Uzun Hassan looks somewhat Turanid.

Maybe because they are Iranian Azeris subgroups who indeed are caucasoid looking? They are all basically sub-tribes of the Azeris. All those those dynasties were founded by Azeris Turkic Oghuz type who are genectically Iranian/Persian race with small to some Mongoloid admixture ( 5-29% ).

As physically Caucasoid as they are, I doubt they are any less Mongoloid than the Azeris. ( Genetically speaking , forget the Mongoloid influenced appearance which exist in small percentage anyway )

Iranian Azeris

http://www.cinecritic.biz/fra/images/stories/majid-majidi-films/lluvia.jpg
http://www.loveme.com/images/p68517-1.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RKrfjqs_uxM/T3rclaI9RyI/AAAAAAAAD9A/lT5HzKFQ6iA/s1600/national+park+lake+urmia+urmu+Urmiye+Orumiyeh+iran +Urmiya+Urumiye+Azerbaijan+Azerbaycan+su+duz+tuz+p rotest+Tebriz+Tabriz+(23).jpg

[EyeOfTheTiger]

iranian azeris or other azeris are mostly iranids.

[random]

Iranian Kazakh Town

Around 90 years ago, during Stalinism, less than a thousand Kazakh left Kazakhstan and came to Iran. This observer documentary makes an intimate atmosphere inside Kazakh homes and other places, and explores history of immigration, what happen during last century, and vision of Iranian Kazakh future


http://vimeo.com/97851934

[Graine]

Tribal Iranians are very primitive and rural, arguably just as primitive as recently urbanised bedouins

[Babak]

So you choose to ignore the powerful Turkoman clans of the Savafid Empire such as Ustadjalu, Rumlu, Shamlu, Dulkadir, Afshar, Tekeli and Varsak who gave rise to what is now Azerbaijani nation?

They gave rise to my pube hairs actually