Germanic DNA In Italy And England Is Significant, Are There Any Facts Supporting This?

[MagnusAurelius]

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml

Scroll down to where it says "Germanic Y DNA". I never trusted this website, the levels seem very high in Italy. I don't know why it is so high, during the Ostrogothic wars that the Eastern Roman Empire won against the Germans, all of Italy was a battleground, there was no much mixing at all. When the Lombards settled in Nothern Italy, they were far outnumbered by the native population so I don't see why such a huge genetic remnant remains, it doesn't make sense.

On here it says the Germanic admixture in Italy.

http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/padania/index.html

MAX. GERMANIC ADMIXTURE
(HGs I1a, I1c)
North 3.6%
Center 5.0%
Apulia 1.3%
Calabria 2.1%


Why does this map show such high Germanic Y DNA in Nothern Italy? I can't find cited sources on this site.

The map must be wrong.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Historically, I'd expect all of northern Italy to have been replaced by germanics during the fall of western roman empire and the settlement of northern italy that occured before then but I don't know for sure how much replacement occurred. They claim it's none but that's doubtful.

[Xanthias]

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml

Scroll down to where it says "Germanic Y DNA". I never trusted this website, the levels seem very high in Italy.

On here it says the Germanic admixture in Italy.


http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/padania/index.html

MAX. GERMANIC ADMIXTURE
(HGs I1a, I1c)
North 3.6%
Center 5.0%
Apulia 1.3%
Calabria 2.1%


Why does this map show such high Germanic Y DNA in Nothern Italy? I can't find cited sources on this site.

Dafuck ? I1a, I1c ? Scando nordid genes ?

And the Q haplogroup looooool :lol:

[Peyrol]

Historically, I'd expect all of northern Italy to have been replaced by germanics during the fall of western roman empire and the settlement of northern italy that occured before then but I don't know for sure how much replacement occurred. They claim it's none but that's doubtful.

There wasn't a total replacement here, mostly a massive settlement of some areas.

Longobards (more than 250,000 people with even some saxons, alemannish, angles and jutes allied tribes) settled in huge numbers in Eastern Lombardy, Veneto and Friul...
...here in Piedmont, for example, they settled but they were kicked out by first savoyarde Earl, Humbert I° aux Blanches Mains, and replaced with bourgognon colonists and other indigenous north italian people (gaul-romanic people), so very few of them remained.

But keep in mind that north Italy had 2-3 million people in that time, so slowly they were absorbed into the majority of the galloromance population. Longobard as germanic language ceased to exist in the X century, except some enclaves who still speak some longobard dialecst (cimbric people). Modern lombard is a galloromance language.

So, nowadays you have this

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Germanic_Europe.gif

[Anglojew]

Dafuck ? I1a, I1c ? Scando nordid genes ?

And the Q haplogroup looooool :lol:

Q is Indo-European (East Iranid eg Scythian);

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t31/1483774_186091991592269_1920299087_o.jpg

[Xanthias]

Q is Indo-European (East Iranid eg Scythian);

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t31/1483774_186091991592269_1920299087_o.jpg

I know but how did they get there ? (scyths mixed with Goths?)

[Rudel]

Historically, I'd expect all of northern Italy to have been replaced by germanics during the fall of western roman empire and the settlement of northern italy that occured before then but I don't know for sure how much replacement occurred. They claim it's none but that's doubtful.
Northern Italy has always been very fertile and quite populated, there's no reason to believe that people there would have been replaced. It would show linguistically anyway, and it doesn't.



...here in Piedmont, for example, they settled but they were kicked out by first savoyarde Earl, Humbert I° aux Blanches Mains, and replaced with bourgognon colonists and other indigenous north italian people (gaul-romanic people), so very few of them remained.
I'd ask for sources here. I doubt they were Lombards left in the time of Humbert I (as in forming a distinct group ethnicity and linguistically). The whole Lombard social and political structure had been overtook by the Franks way before.


except some enclaves who still speak some longobard dialecst (cimbric people).
Isn't Cimbric a form of Bavarian ?

Anyway, it would be normal to have some "Germanic" (pro-tip : there isn't DNA that is intrinsically Germanic.) spill Southwards.

[MagnusAurelius]

I don't see how Nothern Italy can have more than 10% Germanic DNA then, also Englands numbers are simply unbelievable. The Anglo-Saxons never committed a genocide against the Native Briton population, it was more of a racial apartheid where Anglo-Saxons were the ruling class but they were later conquered by Normans and French. The Anglo-Saxons never outnumbered them yet how could they leave a 60%+ genetic remnant, I swear, this website is total BS, there are no official cited sources anywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhopt9vzmjc

Genetics proves English people are Celtic, not Germanic at all. Even if there is a Germanic component, it is not more than 20%, what a stupid map this is.

[Anglojew]

I know but how did they get there ? (scyths mixed with Goths?)

Mystery.

[Smeagol]

Genetics proves English people are Celtic, not Germanic at all. Even if there is a Germanic component, it is not more than 20%, what a stupid map this is.

Not really, English are very Germanic influenced. They are closest genetically to North Germans, Dutch, and Scandinavians. You can see this racially too, in Northern, and Southeastern England, Skandonordid influences are very important, though usually not in pure form.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I don't see how Nothern Italy can have more than 10% Germanic DNA then, also Englands numbers are simply unbelievable. The Anglo-Saxons never committed a genocide against the Native Briton population, it was more of a racial apartheid where Anglo-Saxons were the ruling class but they were later conquered by Normans and French. The Anglo-Saxons never outnumbered them yet how could they leave a 60%+ genetic remnant, I swear, this website is total BS, there are no official cited sources anywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhopt9vzmjc



There was lots of genocide, lots of migrations of celts as well, and many viking kingdoms. It stared 1500 years ago or more.

Genetics proves English people are Celtic, not Germanic at all. Even if there is a Germanic component, it is not more than 20%, what a stupid map this is.

[1stLightHorse]

I don't see how Nothern Italy can have more than 10% Germanic DNA then, also Englands numbers are simply unbelievable. The Anglo-Saxons never committed a genocide against the Native Briton population, it was more of a racial apartheid where Anglo-Saxons were the ruling class but they were later conquered by Normans and French. The Anglo-Saxons never outnumbered them yet how could they leave a 60%+ genetic remnant, I swear, this website is total BS, there are no official cited sources anywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhopt9vzmjc

Genetics proves English people are Celtic, not Germanic at all. Even if there is a Germanic component, it is not more than 20%, what a stupid map this is.

It's about a 50/50 deal i suppose.

My surname is from Western England and my y-dna is Germanic. The invaders pushed right into hills, Celts were pushed and concentrated into Wales and of course in smaller pockets all over the country.

[Peyrol]

You're talking with a guy who use racial-reality (a site owned by an african american - italian from nyc) as source, don't be so hard with him...

[Peyrol]

Northern Italy has always been very fertile and quite populated, there's no reason to believe that people there would have been replaced. It would show linguistically anyway, and it doesn't.


I'd ask for sources here. I doubt they were Lombards left in the time of Humbert I (as in forming a distinct group ethnicity and linguistically). The whole Lombard social and political structure had been overtook by the Franks way before.


Isn't Cimbric a form of Bavarian ?

Anyway, it would be normal to have some "Germanic" (pro-tip : there isn't DNA that is intrinsically Germanic.) spill Southwards.

http://www.ibs.it/code/9788806167639/bordone-renato/dieci-secoli-medioevo.html

Cimbric isn't bavarian, i can't believe that oly 2000 bavarians resisted 800-1000 years unassimilated into venetic society. Plus their dna isn't so different from the rest of the Veneto. A longobard left, remained from the retiring of the language is more probable.
Althout is related do modern boarisch, since longobard was a south german language and not a ''scandinavian language'' as people claim. That's ridiculous.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I know but how did they get there ? (scyths mixed with Goths?)

Goths come from same area as scyths. Germanics don't come from germany but basically 'scythia'.

Germanics probably were r1a as well, not r1b.

If you realize this then gives you a whole different picture of reality.

[Rædwald]

Goths come from same area as scyths. Germanics don't come from germany but basically 'scythia'.

Germanics probably were r1a as well, not r1b.

If you realize this then gives you a whole different picture of reality.

From 'Scythia' but not 'Scythians' right?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

From 'Scythia' but not 'Scythians' right?

Scythians were a specific tribe, but not the only one in their area (which changed over time). But it was also a blanket term. You can trace back the migration of the goths pretty far, though, but since the sites in scythia all come out r1a then I assume they picked up a lot of dna from elsewhere as they went, much like the huns.

Or maybe r1b did come with the germanics, but I doubt it since it's quite entrnched in iberia.

[Rædwald]

Scythians were a specific tribe, but not the only one in their area (which changed over time). But it was also a blanket term. You can trace back the migration of the goths pretty far, though, but since the sites in scythia all come out r1a then I assume they picked up a lot of dna from elsewhere as they went, much like the huns.

Or maybe r1b did come with the germanics, but I doubt it since it's quite entrnched in iberia.

I thought there were several known Scythian tribes, but I guess it would only be speculation to guess what contributions went where.

[SardiniaAtlantis]

Is this surprising to anyone who knows anything about Europe?

[Rudel]

I don't see how Nothern Italy can have more than 10% Germanic DNA then, also Englands numbers are simply unbelievable. The Anglo-Saxons never committed a genocide against the Native Briton population, it was more of a racial apartheid where Anglo-Saxons were the ruling class but they were later conquered by Normans and French. The Anglo-Saxons never outnumbered them yet how could they leave a 60%+ genetic remnant, I swear, this website is total BS, there are no official cited sources anywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhopt9vzmjc

Genetics proves English people are Celtic, not Germanic at all. Even if there is a Germanic component, it is not more than 20%, what a stupid map this is.
Whatever the proportion of ethnic Anglo-Saxon that took over Britain may be, it is well proven that it was enough to cause very important population movements among the natives, in particular towards Gaul.
Armorica was colonized so heavily that it is now Brittany, and that the language of these settlers still exists as Breton.

Furthermore, if the Anglo-Saxons weren't more than a ruling class, it's unlikely that their language(s) would have survived as it has.
The example of the Franks or the Visigoths (who kept their language for a time due to using it for religious purposes), or the much later example of the Rus of Kiev comes to mind.

[Beit El]

Scythians were a specific tribe, but not the only one in their area (which changed over time). But it was also a blanket term. You can trace back the migration of the goths pretty far, though, but since the sites in scythia all come out r1a then I assume they picked up a lot of dna from elsewhere as they went, much like the huns.

Or maybe r1b did come with the germanics, but I doubt it since it's quite entrnched in iberia.

Different branches of R1b have different ethnic connotations.

[Neon Knight]

It is now well established that autosomal DNA in England (and Scotland) from Germanic-speaking countries ranges from about 30% to 50% in most areas. But it is likely that some of this was already there before Roman times i.e. the British Celts were partially Germanic.

I don't think there is any of this Germanic DNA in Italy; remember there are mega-mountains between Italy and Germany and you cannot assume that military invasions changed the population.

[Peyrol]

I don't think there is any of this Germanic DNA in Italy; remember there are mega-mountains between Italy and Germany and you cannot assume that military invasions changed the population.

The Alpes aren't some kind of mystical barriers that closed the country (specifically, the North) to foreigner settlement; that'w why most of the italian states were transalpines (Piedmont-Savoie, Lombardy-Milan, Venice) an people like slovenes, longobards, occitans/provençals and even sudtirolers and the walser settled here.

Btw, germanic imput isn't ''high'', that's for sure... as it's shown in the map i posted in the first page, it's just one of the many and various ethnic components of us north italic people.

[Xanthias]

I don't think there is any of this Germanic DNA in Italy; remember there are mega-mountains between Italy and Germany and you cannot assume that military invasions changed the population.

but that's exactly what happenned :picard1:

[Neon Knight]

As you probably know, paternal and maternal DNA show only a small part of the picture so here is a map of autosomal DNA which was used in a report from Oxford University:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=47071&d=1399773256

There are two main types of DNA in the northern half of Italy - 13 and 14. Since it appears there is a bit of 13 in Bavaria then it seems likely that 13 will also be found in France, Switzerland, Austria and Slovenia but it seems to be a case of Italy influencing these nearby areas and not vice versa - maybe because Italy was an Ice Age refuge.

[MagnusAurelius]

You're talking with a guy who use racial-reality (a site owned by an african american - italian from nyc) as source, don't be so hard with him...

So hard on me? What is wrong with that racial reality site? It has academic references throughout the site.

http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/

[MagnusAurelius]

There wasn't a total replacement here, mostly a massive settlement of some areas.

Longobards (more than 250,000 people with even some saxons, alemannish, angles and jutes allied tribes) settled in huge numbers in Eastern Lombardy, Veneto and Friul...
...here in Piedmont, for example, they settled but they were kicked out by first savoyarde Earl, Humbert I° aux Blanches Mains, and replaced with bourgognon colonists and other indigenous north italian people (gaul-romanic people), so very few of them remained.

But keep in mind that north Italy had 2-3 million people in that time, so slowly they were absorbed into the majority of the galloromance population. Longobard as germanic language ceased to exist in the X century, except some enclaves who still speak some longobard dialecst (cimbric people). Modern lombard is a galloromance language.

So, nowadays you have this

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Germanic_Europe.gif

I still don't think it can be that high in UK and Nothern Italy, considering this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhopt9vzmjc People say he has been debunked but I have not seen comprehensive proof of this yet.

[Argang]

There's been studies including Germany and North Italy that allow for some comparisons.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v21/n6/full/ejhg2012229a.html


To further minimize the bias from within- and maximize the between-group variance, we applied the DAPCs35 to more precisely identify the genetically closest populations to the FVG groups. For the combined European and Near-Eastern populations, the SNP PCAIM panel had the best fit for KDAPC=7 (Supplementary Figure 3) and the DAPC clearly out-clusters the IS sub-populations from Illegio (C1), Sauris (C3) and Resia (C6), including some of the respective GS sub-population samples as well (Figure 3). The rest of the FVG populations clustered mostly with C2 (dominated by central Europeans) and C5 (dominated manly by Italians), although a minor fraction was also assigned to C4 (dominated by northern Europeans), like Sauris and SMC, and C7 (dominated by Near-Eastern ancestry populations), like Clauzetto, Illegio and Sauris but also other southern Europeans (Figure 3).

All Germanic peoples analyzed show significant membership in C4. The general North Italian population shows none, the only Italians that have some C4 membership are from San Martino del Carso (a village in an area with lots of Slovenian speakers) and Sauris (near Austrian border and German-speaking). For most of North Italy it seems that Germanic autosomal genetic contribution, and thus genomewide contribution, is insignificant though Y-DNA contribution might be greater. That might be due to a number of factors, founder effect being the most likely

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v21/n6/images/ejhg2012229f3.jpg

[Peyrol]

So hard on me? What is wrong with that racial reality site? It has academic references throughout the site.

http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/

Sure why not...another trashy american site without any historical references and bases.

[MagnusAurelius]

Well, Italy has been divided between North and South for a long time, with central Italy in the middle. White Nationalist biggots have always argued that the prosperous north is because of Germanic influence, Northern Italy gaining prominence happened during the Renaissance, Southern Italy was still backward due to being owned by Barbarian Normans and their idiotic Barbarian Feudal system (aka extremist nobility system fighting over little tiny pieces of land and being a slave to some lord).

I doubt the Y DNA in all of Nothern Italy for Germanics is more than 10%, and it is amazing that they put the Germanic DNA in England as being that much, the Anglo-Saxons-Jutes who invaded never out numbered the native Briton population, their armies over powered them and pushed them back, they ruled over them, there was no organized policy of genocide, the only ones who were killed were rebels and people who resisted. It is impossible that Germanic DNA in England/UK is more than 20%, in England alone, it is probably around 20% all on Y DNA, that Eupedia site is a load of garbage, it has no official sources anywhere on the site, no citations, nothing.

[Xanthias]

Goths come from same area as scyths. Germanics don't come from germany but basically 'scythia'.

Germanics probably were r1a as well, not r1b.

If you realize this then gives you a whole different picture of reality.

Well sounds plausible, although there's not specific knowledge where the Goths might have started (somewhere between the shores of Poland and Scandinavia [Sweden])

[Xanthias]

Not really, English are very Germanic influenced. They are closest genetically to North Germans, Dutch, and Scandinavians. You can see this racially too, in Northern, and Southeastern England, Skandonordid influences are very important, though usually not in pure form.

maybe because of Anglo-Saxon invasion ? (+ later on Vikings ?)

[Smeagol]

maybe because of Anglo-Saxon invasion ? (+ later on Vikings ?)

Yes.

[Peyrol]

Well, Italy has been divided between North and South for a long time, with central Italy in the middle. White Nationalist biggots have always argued that the prosperous north is because of Germanic influence, Northern Italy gaining prominence happened during the Renaissance, Southern Italy was still backward due to being owned by Barbarian Normans and their idiotic Barbarian Feudal system (aka extremist nobility system fighting over little tiny pieces of land and being a slave to some lord).

I doubt the Y DNA in all of Nothern Italy for Germanics is more than 10%, and it is amazing that they put the Germanic DNA in England as being that much, the Anglo-Saxons-Jutes who invaded never out numbered the native Briton population, their armies over powered them and pushed them back, they ruled over them, there was no organized policy of genocide, the only ones who were killed were rebels and people who resisted. It is impossible that Germanic DNA in England/UK is more than 20%, in England alone, it is probably around 20% all on Y DNA, that Eupedia site is a load of garbage, it has no official sources anywhere on the site, no citations, nothing.

That's exacly what the maps say, lol.

Not ''white nationalist'', but americans, that's different; here everyone know that north Italy is gallo-romance and not ''germanic'', lol.

[Smeagol]

That's exacly what the maps say, lol.

Not ''white nationalist'', but americans, that's different; here everyone know that north Italy is gallo-romance and not ''germanic'', lol.

Americans? No sorry but most Americans don't care at all if there is Germanic influence in Italy or not. It is part of the Nordicist ideology in general to argue that there is a significant Germanic component in Northern Italy which contributed to it's prosperity.

[Peyrol]

Americans? No sorry but most Americans don't care at all if there is Germanic influence in Italy or not. It is part of the Nordicist ideology in general to argue that there is a significant Germanic component in Northern Italy which contributed to it's prosperity.

Well, most americans W.N. are nordicits i think.

[Smeagol]

Well, most americans W.N. are nordicits i think.

Some are, but not all.