Finns 40-50% Y-DNA I

[ButlerKing]

This clearly proves that Finns Y-DNA were originally like Swedes, Norwegian and Danish who are also mainly haplogroup I which is typical of Scandivanian indo-european Y-DNA. They have either moderate frequencies N to 0% of N. Danish and Finns have similar mtDNA only the Y-DNA is different partially


Haplogroup I

A notable exception is Finland, where frequency in West Finns is up to 40%, and in certain provinces like Satakunta more than 50%.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/HG_I1_europa.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Also let's forget other Y-DNA in Finns. Y-DNA N in Finns seems to decrease significantly the more west you go

[1stLightHorse]

Yes but what's your point BK?

[ButlerKing]

Yes but what's your point BK?


It clearly proves that they weren't originally Uralic

[Caismeachd]

Or they were and Swedes migrated there. I doubt it was the other way around. Swedes have always been the aggressors.

[ButlerKing]

Or they were and Swedes migrated there. I doubt it was the other way around. Swedes have always been the aggressors.

Even in eastern Finland there is +30% Y-DNA I

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~villandra/McKinstry/I2b1/haplogroupI1.gif

[Artek]

Have you ever studied I1 branches, it's TMRCA, spread patterns and aDNA in Sweden? Because you obviously know nothing.



It clearly proves that they weren't originally Uralic
First, it proves nothing. Those branches are distinct from most of the Swedish and Norwegian branches and even more distinct from continental ones.

What's more, this I1 population isn't accompanied by any reasonable amount of R1a and/or R1b which would strongly favor indo-european origins.
So they probably spoke some kind of a hunter-gatherer language, something uralic can't be excluded and is plausible.

Secondly, I1 is probably a neolithic in origins as we speak about the general timeframe in Europe that time.

This is proven by latest aDNA research in which they've found mostly I2 and old forms of I ancestral to I1 but not I1.(And with Ken Nordtvedt's calculations).
So it seems logical that some "I" that was pushed north by a farmers or survived in a pocket, have fathered I1 son and this son fathered other sons.
They've rebuilt a population, before the Chalcolithic or slightly later some of this population has reached Finland where it mingled with N1c forest hunters.

Then, in Chalcolthic, Scandinavia was invaded by a Corded Ware people that were rather rich in R1a-Z282 (with other haplogroups possible) and they could've coexisted.

[Harkonnen]

Y-DNA I seems to correlate with the farmer admixture found in West Finns contra East Finns.

Notice also that Saami have around 50% I1, and they have a lot more East Eurasian admixtures contra East Finns.

This suggest that East Finns with their highest North Euro component are the best representative for Uralics, or at least for proto Finns.

[ButlerKing]

Y-DNA I seems to correlate with the farmer admixture found in West Finns contra East Finns.

Notice also that Saami have around 50% I1, and they have a lot more East Eurasian admixtures contra East Finns.

This suggest that East Finns with their highest North Euro component are the best representative for Uralics, or at least for proto Finns.

Yes. Saami weren't originally Uralic either. On average have either 8% Mongoloid, other 16% Mongoloid, one study even shows 27% Mongoloid.

Saami from norway, sweden have the least Mongoloid where as the ones in Finland and Siberia have much higher

[ButlerKing]

Have you ever studied I1 branches, it's TMRCA, spread patterns and aDNA in Sweden? Because you obviously know nothing.

I don't care what branch. The only thing that matters is that they are Y-DNA I not related with N. It means nothing to me what patterns of aDNA in Sweden.

First, it proves nothing. Those branches are distinct from most of the Swedish and Norwegian branches and even more distinct from continental ones.


What's more, this I1 population isn't accompanied by any reasonable amount of R1a and/or R1b which would strongly favor indo-european origins.
So they probably spoke some kind of a hunter-gatherer language, something uralic can't be excluded and is plausible.

Secondly, I1 is probably a neolithic in origins as we speak about the general timeframe in Europe that time.

This is proven by latest aDNA research in which they've found mostly I2 and old forms of I ancestral to I1 but not I1.(And with Ken Nordtvedt's calculations).
So it seems logical that some "I" that was pushed north by a farmers or survived in a pocket, have fathered I1 son and this son fathered other sons.
They've rebuilt a population, before the Chalcolithic or slightly later some of this population has reached Finland where it mingled with N1c forest hunters.

Then, in Chalcolthic, Scandinavia was invaded by a Corded Ware people that were rather rich in R1a-Z282 (with other haplogroups possible) and they could've coexisted.

So what you're trying to say.


That the Finland, Sweden, Danish, Norwegians who all live in scandinavia, and all happen to have high frequencies of haplogroup I1a, ( even similar mtDNA ) happens to be different? How convenient all of a sudden.


You haven't proven nothing yet. N haplogroup didn't originate from Scandinavia and that's for sure

[Insuperable]

Have you ever studied I1 branches, it's TMRCA, spread patterns and aDNA in Sweden? Because you obviously know nothing.

He obviously doesn't. Typical Butlerking's thread and reasoning. Based on few data he read or saw thinks he understands everything and comes up with stupid conclusions.

[ButlerKing]

He obviously doesn't. Typical Butlerking's thread and reasoning. Based on few data he read or saw thinks he understands everything and comes up with stupid conclusions.

Oh what does it matter?

What difference does it make? is it going to change the fact Finns have 40-50% Y-DNA I.

Try to refute me instead of all these spinning around. I could care less what haplogroup I they have. Uralic people are Y-DNA N not I

[Insuperable]

Oh what does it matter?

What difference does it make? is it going to change the fact Finns have 40-50% Y-DNA I.

Try to refute me instead of all these spinning around. I could care less what haplogroup I they have. Uralic people are Y-DNA N not I

:laugh:

[Harkonnen]

I found it interesting that I1 does not seem to correlate at all with nort european component. NE peaks in Baltics and East Finland with low I1. I suspect I1s were farmer slaves of the Vikings.

[ButlerKing]

:laugh:

You know I have a point. It doesn't matter if Finns have I1a or I2a, but I1a is obviously more likely because they are all Scandinavians

Haplogroup I1 is the dominant marker
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I1.gif

[ButlerKing]

I found it interesting that I1 does not seem to correlate at all with nort european component. NE peaks in Baltics and East Finland with low I1. I suspect I1s were farmer slaves of the Vikings.

How does it not when it peaks in all Scandivania? I2a is found only in smaller frequencies

[Insuperable]

You know I have a point. It doesn't matter if Finns have I1a or I2a, but I1a is obviously more likely because they are all Scandinavians

Haplogroup I1 is the dominant marker
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I1.gif

Ok professor

[Harkonnen]

How does it not when it peaks in all Scandivania? I2a is found only in smaller frequencies

Finland doesn't have much I1 really, only in southwest and they have obvious wog admixture, though not as much as Scandinavians, but then again, they don't have as much I1 either contra Danes fex.

[Artek]

Ok professor
He probably mistook a letters, since N1c has about 60% in Finland, not I1 :icon_lol:

[ButlerKing]

Finland doesn't have much I1 really, only in southwest and they have obvious wog admixture, though not as much as Scandinavians, but then again, they don't have as much I1 either contra Danes fex.

You sure?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M253

Finland (west) 230 - 40 - Lappalainen et al 2008
Finland (east) 306 - 19

[Artek]

Finland doesn't have much I1 really, only in southwest and they have obvious wog admixture, though not as much as Scandinavians, but then again, they don't have as much I1 either contra Danes fex.
OK, let's agree that he speaks abount Finland proper. Not a Tavast, Savo, etc. ;D Then he may be right.

[ButlerKing]

Yes don't be mistaken.

Haplogroup I-M253 ( I1a ) peaks 40% in west Finland and 19% in East Finland

I-M227 (I2a) reaches 0% but I once saw 1.5% to 1.8% I2a in Finns. It's higher in smaller frequencies in denmark of all scandivanians

[ButlerKing]

OK, let's agree that he speaks abount Finland proper. Not a Tavast, Savo, etc. ;D Then he may be right.


Umm the study already shows west Finland have 40% I1a and East finland 19%

[Artek]

Umm the study already shows west Finland have 40% I1a and East finland 19%
Right. It still doesn't prove an indo-european origins of this.

[ButlerKing]

Right. It still doesn't prove an indo-european origins of this.

What do you mean it doesn't prove? it certainly proves a scandivanian origin at least... not like N which came from central/East Siberia.

[Anglojew]

Or they were and Swedes migrated there. I doubt it was the other way around. Swedes have always been the aggressors.

Yeah makes sense

[Harkonnen]

Yeah makes sense

Seriously now. The Finnish I1 is different to that of Swedes, is it impossible for it to come from Swedes.

[ButlerKing]

Seriously now. The Finnish I1 is different to that of Swedes, is it impossible for it to come from Swedes.

So what does that means than? I hope someone is not trying to prove I1a in Finland have a non-scandivanian origin but have something to do with Finno-ugric people

What's more ? R1a polish are different to Russians?

[Harkonnen]

So what does that means than? I hope someone is not trying to prove I1a have a non-scandivanian origin but have something to do with Finno-ugric people

What's more ? R1a polish are different to Russians?

Dude, let this be the fucking last time you quote me. I have no interest to have a discussion with simpletons.

[ButlerKing]

Dude, let this be the fucking last time you quote me. I have no interest to have a discussion with simpletons.

You couldn't prove anything to disprove. You claimed Finland don't have much I1a and I proven you so wrong, so that means you're the simpleton.

[ButlerKing]

He probably mistook a letters, since N1c has about 60% in Finland, not I1 :icon_lol:

And 29% I1a :) including every smaller Y-DNA in percentages that takes up 11% of Finland Y-DNA. Finland is 61% in East but in west is far more less than that

[Hweinlant]

Right. It still doesn't prove an indo-european origins of this.

I1* is about 2kya old in Finland so it's certainly not Indo-European (more like proto-Germanic in age). Oldest expansion ages for Finnish N1c1* lineages are of similar age. Both I1* and N1c1* expanded in/to Finland roughly 2000 years ago. The people who carried them were obviously proto-Finns, regardless to which of the two haplogroups they belonged. Pretty much all modern Finns are their paternal descendants.

[ButlerKing]

I1* is about 2kya old in Finland so it's certainly not Indo-European (more like proto-Germanic in age). Oldest expansion ages for Finnish N1c1* lineages are of similar age. Both I1* and N1c1* expanded in/to Finland roughly 2000 years ago. The people who carried them were obviously proto-Finns, regardless to which of the two haplogroups they belonged. Pretty much all modern Finns are their paternal descendants.

This means proto-Finns were a mixture of Uralic and Germanic

[Smaug]

West Finland only has this frequency of Haplogroup I because of the Swedes who live there. Most of the country is Mongolic-influenced.

[ButlerKing]

I1* is about 2kya old in Finland so it's certainly not Indo-European (more like proto-Germanic in age). Oldest expansion ages for Finnish N1c1* lineages are of similar age. Both I1* and N1c1* expanded in/to Finland roughly 2000 years ago. The people who carried them were obviously proto-Finns, regardless to which of the two haplogroups they belonged. Pretty much all modern Finns are their paternal descendants.



But strangely enough the language of Germans and most Scandinavians are part of Indo-European except for the Finns language

[Hweinlant]

Or they were and Swedes migrated there. I doubt it was the other way around. Swedes have always been the aggressors.

Finland and Sweden were once one country for 600 years (1200-1800). Quite obviously people moved around the country but the main direction of internal emigration was always from Finland to Sweden. Reason for this is pretty easy. Stockholm was the capital city and capital cities always attract people. Another main reason is that Finland was always the poorer younger brother of the pairing. People move from poorer regions to wealthier regions. Medieval Stockholm was something like 1/3 Finnish. Migration waves like "Forest Finns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Finns)" lured tens of thousands of Finns to Sweden etc. There is "Swedish I1" in Finland but the bulk of I1* Finland is typical only for Finns, it's not Swedish in origin but very much Finnish. Finnish type I1* btw exists in Sweden too.

[Artek]

This means proto-Finns were a mixture of Uralic and Germanic
Nope. I1 wasn't initially Germanic in any sense, realise that. Germanic = R1b-U106 + some Corded Ware populations. Are you a troll or are you just dim?
Hopeless man, unsubscribed.

[ButlerKing]

West Finland only has this frequency of Haplogroup I because of the Swedes who live there. Most of the country is Mongolic-influenced.

so what about east Finland with 19% - 30% Haplogroup I1a?

[ButlerKing]

Nope. I1 wasn't initially Germanic in any sense, realise that. Germanic = R1b-U106 + some Corded Ware populations. Are you a troll or are you just dim?
Hopeless man, unsubscribed.

I'm talking about north Germanic you freaking moron.

Get straight to the freaking point already. What the hell are you trying to disprove?

[Hweinlant]

This means proto-Finns were a mixture of Uralic and Germanic

You are mixing linguistic stages and time frames. Uralic existed in same time frame as Indo-European. Correct counter part for Germanic is Finnic. I think it's reasonable to assume that proto-Finns were indeed some sort of Finnic+Germanic muts.

[ButlerKing]

Germanic

We all know that I1a peak highest and most dominant in the North Germanic languages. NOWHERE ELSE (except Finland Uralic and Denmark who are west Germanic)

That means I1a was dominant in the carriers of North Germanic.

I didn't mean Germans Germanic because it's obvious they are R1b

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Germanic_dialects_ca._AD_1.png

[ButlerKing]

You are mixing linguistic stages and time frames. Uralic existed in same time frame as Indo-European. Correct counter part for Germanic is Finnic. I think it's reasonable to assume that proto-Finns were indeed some sort of Finnic+Germanic muts.

I1a is clearly a strong marker in the North Germanic people. I don't see any language group with such high frequencies except the areas that are close or next to them

[Hweinlant]

But strangely enough the language of Germans and most Scandinavians are part of Indo-European except for the Finns language

What's so strange about that ? The I1* in Finland has always spoken in Finnic, regardless what their original tongue millenias go was.

[Hweinlant]

Denmark who are west Germanic


Danes are North Germanic, just like Swedes and Norwegians.

[ButlerKing]

What's so strange about that ? The I1* in Finland has always spoken in Finnic, regardless what their original tongue millenias go was.

It clearly means the N had replaced I1 languages because they are the only exception in Scandinavia that speak different languages next to their neighbors.

[ButlerKing]

Danes are North Germanic, just like Swedes and Norwegians.

Yes, you're right and Iceland too. They all have high I1a.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Nordiska_språk.PNG

[Hweinlant]

It clearly means the N had replaced I1 languages because they are the only exception in Scandinavia that speak languages next to their neighbours.

I1* is not limited to Scandinavia, it exists through out Northern Europe, from British isles to Urals at east.

[ButlerKing]

I1* is not limited to Scandinavia, it exists through out Northern Europe, from British isles to Urals at east.

Yes but that can be thanked to the Vikings who were from England to Russia. Vikings were everywhere in Europe. The Urals have only small percentages off this

[Hweinlant]

Yes but that can be thanked to the Vikings who were from England to Siberia. Vikings were everywhere in Europe. The Urals have only small percentages off this

You have 0 evidence for that claim. North Russia has consistently figures above 10%.

[sgc2009]

Yes but that can be thanked to the Vikings who were from England to Siberia. Vikings were everywhere in Europe. The Urals have only small percentages off this

Umm, no. They belong to other subclades than Scandinavians, even Scandinavian I1 isn't homogenous.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/I1-tree.gif

[ButlerKing]

Umm, no. They belong to other subclades than Scandinavians, even Scandinavian I1 isn't homogenous.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/I1-tree.gif

What does it matters what subclades it belong to :picard2: They all share the I1a family, okay even I1a in Danish have some different I1a subclades to Norwegians.

[Harkonnen]

You are mixing linguistic stages and time frames. Uralic existed in same time frame as Indo-European. Correct counter part for Germanic is Finnic. I think it's reasonable to assume that proto-Finns were indeed some sort of Finnic+Germanic muts.

But then for the sake of clarity I think it's good to emphasize that you can not derive Finns from a mix of a any kind of modern Germanic and Finnic populations, so Ancient Finnic+Ancient Germanic (or proto).. mutts.

[Hweinlant]

But then for the sake of clarity I think it's good to emphasize that you can not derive Finns from a mix of a any kind of modern Germanic and Finnic populations, so Ancient Finnic+Ancient Germanic (or proto).. mutts.

Yeah, absolutely. (Ancient Finnics + Ancient Germanics) + 2000 years of history = Modern Finns.

[Black Wolf]

This clearly proves that Finns Y-DNA were originally like Swedes, Norwegian and Danish who are also mainly haplogroup I which is typical of Scandivanian indo-european Y-DNA. They have either moderate frequencies N to 0% of N. Danish and Finns have similar mtDNA only the Y-DNA is different partially


Haplogroup I

A notable exception is Finland, where frequency in West Finns is up to 40%, and in certain provinces like Satakunta more than 50%.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/HG_I1_europa.jpg

Moderate frequencies of N to 0%? There are no areas in Finland where Y-DNA N is 0%. On the whole around 60% of Finns are part of haplogroup N1c1. Yes I1 is the most common in parts of West Finland but N1c1 always comes in second there. In East Finland N1c1 easily dominates the Y-DNA pool.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_N1c_Y-DNA.shtml

[ButlerKing]

It's fair to say modern Finns are mixture of western Uralic ( 19 - 38% Mongoloid ) with 100% Caucasoid Germanic.


It's true Finns today have a total of 6 - 12% Mongoloid admixture. If a pure Mongoloid male mix with one Germanic women that children becomes 50%, and his hybrid child mix with another than that's 25% Mongoloid, one or two more that makes them only 12.5% to 19% Mongoloid which is close to modern day Finns.

FINNS DNA

Western Uralic males 60% haplogroup N ( can also possibly be as low like 29% )

http://mrted57.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/1076153676877.jpeg

North Germanic speaker men haplogroup I, R1a, R1b (40-60%) and women 100%

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.161143!/img/httpImage/image.jpg
http://static.berkutschi.com/berkutschi/images/news/000/007/110/thumb685croped/IMG_2751.JPG?1369204919

[ButlerKing]

Moderate frequencies of N to 0%? There are no areas in Finland where Y-DNA N is 0%. On the whole around 60% of Finns are part of haplogroup N1c1. Yes I1 is the most common in parts of West Finland but N1c1 always comes in second there. In East Finland N1c1 easily dominates the Y-DNA pool.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_N1c_Y-DNA.shtml

I was talking about Denmark when I mean't 0% and moderate to Sweden and Norwegians. If you look at their mtDNA their similar and even other portions of Y-DNA are similar but they lack N which is so dominant in Finns

[Black Wolf]

I was talking about Denmark when I mean't 0% and moderate to Sweden and Norwegians. If you look at their mtDNA their similar and even other portions of Y-DNA are similar but they lack N which is so dominant in Finns

Ahhh okay I see then. Ya when it comes to uniparental markers the only thing that makes Finns rather distinctive in Europe is high frequencies of Y-DNA N1c1.

[sgc2009]

What does it matters what subclades it belong to :picard2: They all share the I1a family, okay even I1a in Danish have some different I1a subclades to Norwegians.

Obviously you're incapable of comprehending simple logics, this refutes your claim that "Vikings" supposedly spread all I1 in Europe. btw Viking isn't an ethnicity, it's an occupation.

I1 is pre-Germanic. Haplogroup frequency is mostly determined by bottlenecks.

[ButlerKing]

Obviously you're incapable of comprehending simple logics, this refutes your claim that "Vikings" supposedly spread all I1 in Europe. btw Viking isn't an ethnicity, it's an occupation.

I1 is proto-Germanic. Haplogroup frequency is mostly determined by bottlenecks.

I never said Finns I1a was of Viking origin to begin with. As for in England, Ireland, Scotland I1a is clearly from Vikings since it was recorded they settled there as well as in Russia and east Europe

[Hweinlant]

It's fair to say modern Finns are mixture of western Uralic ( 19 - 38% Mongoloid ) with 100% Caucasoid Germanic.


Closest non-Finnic (-lappic) linguistic relatives of Finns are Mordvinics (Erzyas and Moksas). They live in Eastern Europe. They don't look like Mongoloids at all. You have strange fixation with the mongoloids btw.

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5451/erzyagirl.jpg

[sgc2009]

I never said Finns I1a was of Viking origin to begin with. As for in England, Ireland, Scotland I1a is clearly from Vikings since it was recorded they settled there as well as in Russia and east Europe

Most I1 in UK is northwest European/West Germanic, likely of Anglo-Saxon origin.

[Luovatus]

As a true Finn I find this subject very fascinating, naturally!
And I´m not gonna start a fight over this, because I´m not an expert on this matter. But I just ran into this article in the net, which I hope will give some answers to those, who take this stuff seriously ...
It´s about the origins of Vikings in former Kvenland, todays FennoScandinavia (Finland+Scandivania).
I did not read it all, so I hope the article is a serious one!

http://originofislamofascism.blogspot.fi/2014/04/a-brief-history-and-pre-history-of.html

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qyurvzRjbEU/ULzkuuqzY4I/AAAAAAAAB4k/cfSSkgSL9X4/s400/Kvenland3.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Closest non-Finnic (-lappic) linguistic relatives of Finns are Mordvinics (Erzyas and Moksas). They live in Eastern Europe. They don't look like Mongoloids at all. You have strange fixation with the mongoloids btw.

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5451/erzyagirl.jpg

Linguistic relative doesn't represent genetic relative besides they too have some Mongoloid DNA. I didn't mean they need to look 100% Mongoloid

[ButlerKing]

Most I1 in UK is northwest European/West Germanic, likely of Anglo-Saxon origin.

At least a large portion of I1a, keep in my mind I never said all but it is stupid to think they left no impact since it is found in all places invaded by the ancient Germanic peoples and the Vikings.

In 2003 a paper was published by Christian Capelli and colleagues which supported, but modified, the conclusions of Weale and colleagues.[12] This paper, which sampled Great Britain and Ireland on a grid, found a smaller difference between Welsh and English samples, with a gradual decrease in Haplogroup I frequency moving westwards in southern Great Britain. The results suggested to the authors that Norwegian Vikings invaders had heavily influenced the northern area of the British Isles, but that both English and mainland Scottish samples all have German/Danish influence.

[Äijä]

Finland doesn't have much I1 really, only in southwest and they have obvious wog admixture, though not as much as Scandinavians, but then again, they don't have as much I1 either contra Danes fex.

I is common where most of the population has lived for the past 2000+ years, Finland Proper, Satakunta, Bothnias, Tavastia, Bircaland..:rolleyes2:

It is accompanied by "Baltic/Scandinavian/Varangian" N1c lines, that is the core areas of Finland, its population and its culture.

East Finns are a more recent addition to this tribe called Finns.

[Äijä]

Yeah makes sense

No it does not, it is not from Sweden, more like Denmark or North Germany.

It is a early Germanic migration at the same time with Finnic migration from Estonia.

Suebi confederation controlled all of the Baltic Sea in the Roman times, trade and defense pact, it included Germanic, Baltic Finnic and Baltic tribes.

[Äijä]

This means proto-Finns were a mixture of Uralic and Germanic

Yes! Someone figured it out!

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?120754-Genetic-Map-for-Western-Europe&p=2581208&viewfull=1#post2581208

[Äijä]

West Finland only has this frequency of Haplogroup I because of the Swedes who live there. Most of the country is Mongolic-influenced.

BS, should cut your head and take out the stomach.

[Äijä]

Yes but that can be thanked to the Vikings who were from England to Russia. Vikings were everywhere in Europe. The Urals have only small percentages off this

Yet the Finnish clades can be found where the Vikings settled, from Britain to Russia.

[Äijä]

It's fair to say modern Finns are mixture of western Uralic ( 19 - 38% Mongoloid ) with 100% Caucasoid Germanic.


It's true Finns today have a total of 6 - 12% Mongoloid admixture. If a pure Mongoloid male mix with one Germanic women that children becomes 50%, and his hybrid child mix with another than that's 25% Mongoloid, one or two more that makes them only 12.5% to 19% Mongoloid which is close to modern day Finns.

FINNS DNA

Western Uralic males 60% haplogroup N ( can also possibly be as low like 29% )

http://mrted57.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/1076153676877.jpeg

North Germanic speaker men haplogroup I, R1a, R1b (40-60%) and women 100%

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.161143!/img/httpImage/image.jpg
http://static.berkutschi.com/berkutschi/images/news/000/007/110/thumb685croped/IMG_2751.JPG?1369204919

Find a Mongoloid skull from Iron Age Finland and come back with your theory.

[Harkonnen]

I is common where most of the population has lived for the past 2000+ years, Finland Proper, Satakunta, Bothnias, Tavastia, Bircaland..:rolleyes2:

It is accompanied by "Baltic/Scandinavian/Varangian" N1c lines, that is the core areas of Finland, its population and its culture.

I wonder what it tells about yourself that you managed to cook up a reply to my obvious parody of the retarded autistic twats in this forum.


East Finns are a more recent addition to this tribe called Finns.


I can assure you that East Finns are an extremely pure Finnic/Finnish population. The only non-Finnish population East Finns show any kind of pull or affinity on PCAs, IBS, FST etc are the Saami. As East Finns lack the Volga affinity of the Saamis, this is then best to interpret so, that EF's have absorbed some pre-Finnic aboriginal Finnish genetic material.

[Äijä]

I wonder what it tells about yourself that you managed to cook up a reply to my obvious parody of the retarded autistic twats in this forum.



I can assure you that East Finns are an extremely pure Finnic/Finnish population. The only non-Finnish population East Finns show any kind of pull or affinity on PCAs, IBS, FST etc are the Saami. As East Finns lack the Volga affinity of the Saamis, this is then best to interpret so, that EF's have absorbed some pre-Finnic aboriginal Finnish genetic material.

Nothing obvious about your parody, you could be autistic yourself.

East Finns are pure Finnic population, no question, that was not the point.

Modern Finland is based on the language, culture and people of West Finns and they came to be trough a mix of Finnic and Germanic tribes in the Iron Age.

[Äijä]

Here we have the separation of East Finns from the "Original Finns".


http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/SNP-N-TREE.jpg

[Smaug]

BS, should cut your head and take out the stomach.

Come at me.

[Äijä]

Come at me.

Lol, joking but this mongol BS has to stop. Give proof or shut up, there has never been mongols here, nada.

[Smaug]

Lol, joking but this mongol BS has to stop. Give proof or shut up, there has never been mongols here, nada.

Of course I was joking too :D

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Yes. Saami weren't originally Uralic either. On average have either 8% Mongoloid, other 16% Mongoloid, one study even shows 27% Mongoloid.

Saami from norway, sweden have the least Mongoloid where as the ones in Finland and Siberia have much higher

So they converted to hunter gatherer lifestyle? How ludicrous.

[Äijä]

So they converted to hunter gatherer lifestyle? How ludicrous.


They started herding reindeer, they got it from different Siberian tribes moving West in the arctic, this was in historical times so it is documented.
This is also where the Sami got some recent Siberian genetic mix.

[ButlerKing]

Find a Mongoloid skull from Iron Age Finland and come back with your theory.

Mongoloid skull in Siberia yes.

[ButlerKing]

Lol, joking but this mongol BS has to stop. Give proof or shut up, there has never been mongols here, nada.


The oldest skulls of Uralic/Finno ugric in western Siberia were both Mongoloid and Mongoloid/Caucasoid.



Comb-ceramics (3500-2750) - Finno-Ugric peoples, who came from Siberia
http://i50.tinypic.com/317cvte.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/33ausnn.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/20zsh2b.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/zj80oi.jpg


The closest analogy to the skull early Finno-Ugric peoples are found in the burial Fofanova in the Baikal region (6th millennium BC)
http://i50.tinypic.com/2w40mm9.jpg

( Russian translation to English)

FACE OF ANTHROPOLOGY

There has been an act of invasion of the Finno-Ugric peoples of Eastern origin in the territory inhabited by Caucasians. Dnieper-Donets culture has developed Caucasians, after which it mingled with the Finno-Ugric tribes. This is confirmed by the data from the repository and Yasinovatka, which (like the Vasiljevka II) is the most ancient among the other cemeteries of the Dnieper-Donets culture. Moreover, it contains the burial of non-simultaneity and divide the period of 500 years (between A and B).

Since culture comb-ceramic spread anthropological type, bearing the features of a "relaxed Mongoloid." In the anthropological literature, it is named laponoidnogo. From the point of view of anthropologists, "there is every reason to believe that the origin of anthropological traits media cultures comb-ceramics associated with the eastern parts of Russia." In particular, male and female skulls from graves 19 and 20 (Sahtysh II), belonging to the comb-culture and dating con. 4th - early. 3rd millennium BC. e. have pronounced Mongoloid appearance - "brain structure of the skull, face and horizontal profile morphology of the nose in two sahtyshskih skulls undoubtedly confirm their membership of the Mongoloid race.

[ButlerKing]

Nothing obvious about your parody, you could be autistic yourself.

East Finns are pure Finnic population, no question, that was not the point.

Modern Finland is based on the language, culture and people of West Finns and they came to be trough a mix of Finnic and Germanic tribes in the Iron Age.



East Finns have 15-22% haplogroup I and 51-65% N.
West Finns have 40-56% haplogroup I and 29-39% N

However mtDNA is the same being 100% Caucasoid. Why is it the higher the N in Finns the higher the Mongoloid admixture?

East Finns on average have East Finns have 9.3%+ Mongoloid on average

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-admixture.gif

[ButlerKing]

Of course I was joking too :D

This guy is in-denial

Notice the genetic map says 60% East Eurasian Y-DNA in Finns?

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n10/images/ejhg2008101f1.jpg

[ButlerKing]

So they converted to hunter gatherer lifestyle? How ludicrous.


Quiet! These are supported by European and Russian geneticist and anthropologists

[Äijä]

Mongoloid skull in Siberia yes.

Finland is not in Siberia, good luck finding mongoloid skulls.

No different than finding them in Baltic.

[ButlerKing]

Finland is not in Siberia, good luck finding mongoloid skulls.

No different than finding them in Baltic.

I think you misunderstood me. I never said Finns are the result of pure Mongoloid men mating with caucasian women but rather the Y-DNA N was clearly originally Mongoloid but the ones who brought these N marker were already hybrized with Mongoloid by that time and they were properly closer to caucasian than mongoloid.

So I've been saying all these time.


Finns paternal Y-DNA partially originated from a mixture of west eurasian and East Eurasian where as mtDNA is 100% west eurasian however the Y-DNA brought to finns were hybrids aswell that is why despite high Y-DNA N they don't look that much different to their neighbors

[Äijä]

This guy is in-denial

Notice the genetic map says 60% East Eurasian Y-DNA in Finns?

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n10/images/ejhg2008101f1.jpg


Give some estimates of your claimed mongoloid admix in different points of the tree? Also for the Balts.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/SNP-N-TREE.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Give some estimates of your claimed mongoloid admix in different points of the tree? Also for the Balts.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/SNP-N-TREE.jpg

What does this tree prove? Mongoloid admixture in Finland was originaly 2000 BC. Too damn long ago. We are talking about the time when Finland was empty and very few

[Äijä]

What does this tree prove? Mongoloid admixture in Finland was originaly 2000 BC. Too damn long ago. We are talking about the time when Finland was empty and very few

Finnic came in Finland around 500 BC, at 2000 BC they where in the Volga with the Aryans.

[ButlerKing]

Finnic came in Finland around 500 BC, at 2000 BC they where in the Volga with the Aryans.

It was properly much longer than that long enough for Finnic to develop into their own genetic branch. All Finnic people today have substantial Mongoloid admixture that is true.

[Äijä]

It was properly much longer than that long enough for Finnic to develop into their own genetic branch. All Finnic people today have substantial Mongoloid admixture that is true.

Many Finnish N1c subclades are common with Scandinavians and Balts, you cant lumb them in one pile.
You have consider other sources for possible admix events.

[ButlerKing]

Many Finnish N1c subclades are common with Scandinavians and Balts, you cant lumb them in one pile.
You have consider other sources for possible admix events.

That's because your male ancestors expanded, they came directly from you so of course they have something in common.

[Äijä]

That's because your male ancestors expanded, they came directly from you so of course they have something in common.

They dont have only something in common, they are the actual Scandinavian and Baltic clades migrating to Finland, they are common.

So Finnish N1c is not simple, using your 60% East Eurasian statement is misleading to people reading it.
You have to think other options for the admix event and actually make sure what the component is and/or does it brake down to different sources itself.

Do you dispute the N1c being possible Indo European clade in Europe?

[ButlerKing]

They dont have only something in common, they are the actual Scandinavian and Baltic clades migrating to Finland, they are common.

So Finnish N1c is not simple, using your 60% East Eurasian statement is misleading to people reading it.
You have to think other options for the admix event and actually make sure what the component is and/or does it brake down to different sources itself.

Do you dispute the N1c being possible Indo European clade in Europe?

What the hell you claim that Baltic people who have only 30% haplogroup N (but also with predominant R1) migrated to Finland? if that so why you have only 7% R1?

[ButlerKing]

Estonians for example have 40% haplogroup R1 where as Finland have 7% R1

Estonians for example have 15% haplogroup I where as Finland have 29% I

Estonians for example have 34% haplogroup N where as Finland have 60% N

There is nothing in common between the Baltic Y-DNA and Finns except for haplogroup N which originated from Finns.

[Äijä]

What the hell you claim that Baltic people who have only 30% haplogroup N (but also with predominant R1) migrated to Finland? if that so why you have only 7% R1?

Do you know how the Finnish N1c breaks down to subclusters? That they dont all originate in Finland?

The main West Finnish cluster (East European Branch) came from Estonia, others from Baltic and Scandinavia ( Tawastian cluster, Scandinavian-Russian Branch, Rurikids and Para-Rurikids) that makes about half of the 60%, the other half is East Finnish.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/N%20Russia%20%20DNA%20Project,N%20Russia%20%20DNA% 20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults

[Äijä]

Estonians for example have 40% haplogroup R1 where as Finland have 7% R1

Estonians for example have 15% haplogroup I where as Finland have 29% I

Estonians for example have 34% haplogroup N where as Finland have 60% N

There is nothing in common between the Baltic Y-DNA and Finns except for haplogroup N which originated from Finns.

And Finns originate from? The just fell from a tree?

[ButlerKing]

Do you know how the Finnish N1c breaks down to subclusters? That they dont all originate in Finland?

The main West Finnish cluster (East European Branch) came from Estonia, others from Baltic and Scandinavia ( Tawastian cluster, Scandinavian-Russian Branch, Rurikids and Para-Rurikids) that makes about half of the 60%, the other half is East Finnish.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/N%20Russia%20%20DNA%20Project,N%20Russia%20%20DNA% 20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults

It doesn't matter what cluster it belongs to what matter is N is originally Mongoloid.

You may have your own seperate N1 clade due to mutation but you can't rid of the fact that you have 6 - 12 Mongoloid DNA in your autosomal and since you mtDNA is only 0.5% Mongoloid but 99.5% Caucasoid the only explanation is the the haplogroup N in your finns


Estonians have only 1-6% Mongoloid admixture at max and that tree of your doesn't suggest that haplogroup N in finland came from baltic

[ButlerKing]

And Finns originate from? The just fell from a tree?

Some Baltic people have only 1/3 to 1/2 the Y-DNA N that finns have

Where as in R1 in Finns are not even 1/4 of Estonians

[ButlerKing]

And Finns originate from? The just fell from a tree?

Other baltics are more like a mixture of Finno ugric and predominatelty Slav. It seems their mtDNA and part of their Y-DNA are closer to slavic people. R1a reaches from 32% to 38% compared with Russian and Ukranians 56 - 58% but you Finns have only few percent.

[Äijä]

Some Baltic people have only 1/3 to 1/2 the Y-DNA N that finns have

Where as in R1 in Finns are not even 1/4 of Estonians

You should look at Estonian history, they where genocided a bit.

[Äijä]

It doesn't matter what cluster it belongs to what matter is N is originally Mongoloid.

You may have your own seperate N1 clade due to mutation but you can't rid of the fact that you have 6 - 12 Mongoloid DNA in your autosomal and since you mtDNA is only 0.5% Mongoloid but 99.5% Caucasoid the only explanation is the the haplogroup N in your finns


Estonians have only 1-6% Mongoloid admixture at max and that tree of your doesn't suggest that haplogroup N in finland came from baltic

You have to say that as your theory is based on the N being a carrier ( only for Finns, lol) but Estonia is an area where the N spread to Finland.
You have some other routes for it?

[ButlerKing]

You have to say that as your theory is based on the N being a carrier ( only for Finns, lol) but Estonia is an area where the N spread to Finland.
You have some other routes for it?

Well if it was from Estonia than it can't be the same people related with modern Estonians.

Unless you're telling me that the N that spread from Estonia were predominatly generically like Slavs.

Estonians, Latvians all have much more than 41%+ haplogroup R1 and the mtDNA U is so high like the slavs so there is no way they are pure Finno-ugric

They only have 1/3 haplogroup N the rest 66% are all different

[Argang]

it was from Estonia than it can't be the same people related with modern Estonians

They only have 1/3 haplogroup N the rest 66% are all different

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Founder_effect.png

[Äijä]

Well if it was from Estonia than it can't be the same people related with modern Estonians.

Unless you're telling me that the N that spread from Estonia were predominatly generically like Slavs.

Estonians, Latvians all have much more than 41%+ haplogroup R1 and the mtDNA U is so high like the slavs

They only 1/3 haplogroup N the rest 66% are all different

Depends what part of Estonia, and yes they have had population replacements from those times, they have absorbed a lot of new DNA compared to Finns.

There is no other route, if you would know history and culture of the area we would not have have this discussion.

[ButlerKing]

R1b is 11-18% in Russians and some slav group but in some Baltic is also 6-8% R1b

[ButlerKing]

Depends what part of Estonia, and yes they have had population replacements from those times, they have absorbed a lot of new DNA compared to Finns.

There is no other route, if you would know history and culture of the area we would not have have this discussion.

It seems to suggest Estonians were neither Mongoloid or Caucasoid which may suggest they were a mix race group in the pass


Leiu Heapost. "A population genetic characterization of Estonians." Anthropologischer Anzeiger 58:2 (June 2000): pages 137-154. (mirror) In English and German. English version of the abstract:
This paper discusses the genetic characterization of Estonians on the basis of eight blood group systems, and the traits of PTC tasting and colour blindness in 40 Estonian population samples from various parts of the country. The allele frequencies for the total Estonian population and for the four most different regions are presented. The survey shows genetic heterogeneity within the Estonians; the greatest genetic differences were observed in West-East direction. The West-Islands, West, and North Estonia differ from the other regions (East, South-East, also South-West and Central Estonia--which form a compact cluster). The mean allele frequencies of the Estonians are comparable to those typical for populations from North and East Europe, but the allele frequencies of Estonians are characterized by tendencies in two opposite (western and eastern) directions, like in other Finno-Ugric populations and concerning other anthropological traits. Estonians reveal closest similarities to the nearest neighbouring populations, regardless of their language group. The genetic heterogeneity and antagonistic traits in Estonians seem to be traces of the original genetic structure of Finno-Ugric ancestor populations which were neither Mongoloid nor Caucasoid.

[ButlerKing]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Founder_effect.png

Yes it was a founder effect

[Äijä]

It seems to suggest Estonians were neither Mongoloid or Caucasoid which may suggest they were a mix race group in the pass


Leiu Heapost. "A population genetic characterization of Estonians." Anthropologischer Anzeiger 58:2 (June 2000): pages 137-154. (mirror) In English and German. English version of the abstract:
This paper discusses the genetic characterization of Estonians on the basis of eight blood group systems, and the traits of PTC tasting and colour blindness in 40 Estonian population samples from various parts of the country. The allele frequencies for the total Estonian population and for the four most different regions are presented. The survey shows genetic heterogeneity within the Estonians; the greatest genetic differences were observed in West-East direction. The West-Islands, West, and North Estonia differ from the other regions (East, South-East, also South-West and Central Estonia--which form a compact cluster). The mean allele frequencies of the Estonians are comparable to those typical for populations from North and East Europe, but the allele frequencies of Estonians are characterized by tendencies in two opposite (western and eastern) directions, like in other Finno-Ugric populations and concerning other anthropological traits. Estonians reveal closest similarities to the nearest neighbouring populations, regardless of their language group. The genetic heterogeneity and antagonistic traits in Estonians seem to be traces of the original genetic structure of Finno-Ugric ancestor populations which were neither Mongoloid nor Caucasoid.

In these areas there was similar Finnic-Germanic mix population like in West Finland, these are also points of migration to Finland.

[ButlerKing]

In these areas there was similar Finnic-Germanic mix population like in West Finland, these are also points of migration to Finland.

North Estonians seems to have higher Mongoloid admixture maybe they are somewhat closer to modern Finns from the east

[Äijä]

North Estonians seems to have higher Mongoloid admixture maybe they are somewhat closer to modern Finns from the east

It one of the oldest invasion routes in Europe, most pillaged and depopulated at times.
We need more ancient samples from there and modern more from West and the Islands.

[Luovatus]

Your "discussion" doesn´t seem to lead anywhere. For an average Finn like myself, that so called mongoloid admix to me seems to be so little, it has no meaning to me in my everyday life. But, it´s always a pleasure to read these "Finn-threads", thx

Greetings from Finland :)
http://kuvat.kaleva.fi/default/0ec39fb6-2a16-11e1-89c7-12314303c108/large-20100731-100731j311214i.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Your "discussion" doesn´t seem to lead anywhere. For an average Finn like myself, that so called mongoloid admix to me seems to be so little, it has no meaning to me in my everyday life. But, it´s always a pleasure to read these "Finn-threads", thx

Greetings from Finland :)
http://kuvat.kaleva.fi/default/0ec39fb6-2a16-11e1-89c7-12314303c108/large-20100731-100731j311214i.jpg


Is 9.3% Mongoloid that makes you about 1/10 Mongoloid

[Äijä]

I would look for the source in MtDNA and the previous population in Finland, cant prove it but that is a firm belief.

[Dasr]

this mongobullshit is hilarious

[Äijä]

this mongobullshit is hilarious

And it not even about mongloid admix for sure, the component could something totally different.
We dont know much about the paleo population of Fennoscandia from it could originate.

[Luovatus]

Sami (Lappoids) people were in Finland first as far as I remember from history books at school. Then came Finnish tribes and drove them up to the north where they live today in northern Lapland. So perhaps it comes from there...

[Äijä]

Sami (Lappoids) people were in Finland first as far as I remember from history books at school. Then came Finnish tribes and drove them up to the north where they live today in northern Lapland. So perhaps it comes from there...

It most likely comes from them but the Sami today are a creole people so they dont represent the paelo population either.

[ButlerKing]

And it not even about mongloid admix for sure, the component could something totally different.
We dont know much about the paleo population of Fennoscandia from it could originate.

No is definately sure it's Mongoloid. Is a northeast Asian component found in 100% in Yakuts and Ngannasans, 70% in Nenets



The average North European (sweden, Norway ) is 2% Northeast Asian

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4Uon3z-4xaI/UM_zkNvtR-I/AAAAAAAADCY/4nSn-vYZLFo/s400/WhoAmIpercents.tiff


In this study North Europeans is used to compare with Finns

The average Finns is 7% Northeast Asian

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qOVZjcVfQHU/UM_08vMw5wI/AAAAAAAADC4/ECbFEisKKY8/s400/Finnishref.tiff

[ButlerKing]

this mongobullshit is hilarious

Is nothing hilarious when it's backed up with genetic evidence. You can say that when there is no evidence.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-admixture.gif

Notice the genetic map says 60% East Eurasian Y-DNA in Finns?

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n10/images/ejhg2008101f1.jpg

[Äijä]

No is definately sure it's Mongoloid. Is a northeast Asian component found in 100% in Yakuts and Ngannasans, 70% in Nenets



The average North European (sweden, Norway ) is 2% Northeast Asian

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4Uon3z-4xaI/UM_zkNvtR-I/AAAAAAAADCY/4nSn-vYZLFo/s400/WhoAmIpercents.tiff


In this study North Europeans is used to compare with Finns

The average Finns is 7% Northeast Asian

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qOVZjcVfQHU/UM_08vMw5wI/AAAAAAAADC4/ECbFEisKKY8/s400/Finnishref.tiff

Who else has the same component? Do Native Americans have it?

I would still look the source from ancient Fennoscandia for the present population, someone has been living and farming there millenia before Finnic and Germanic migrations.

[ButlerKing]

Who else has the same component? Do Native Americans have it?

I would still look the source from ancient Fennoscandia for the present population, someone has been living and farming there millenia before Finnic and Germanic migrations.

All I know is all Siberian tribes but it reaches 100% in Eastern Siberian tribes.

[Äijä]

All I know is all Siberian tribes but it reaches 100% in Eastern Siberian tribes.

Well you should entertain the idea that something like them was in Fennocandia before the migrations, lack in Estonia should be a proof for that.

[ButlerKing]

Well you should entertain the idea that something like them was in Fennocandia before the migrations, lack in Estonia should be a proof for that.

It also reaches 16% in the Saami

[Dasr]

actually its obvious you can see that finns and samis are mongoloid just by looking at some of them

[Äijä]

It also reaches 16% in the Saami

Who would be the most mixed with the paleo population, most likely the first contact was by them, Sami as language separated before Finnic where in Finland.

Also many Finns where just recently Sami, they have been assimilated, there are historical documents about this.¨

This is partly political subject, hot even, for me it is only interest in history.

If you did not know this you might also now think its possible that Finns did not bring the component, it was allready here.

[Äijä]

actually its obvious you can see that finns and samis are mongoloid just by looking at some of them

And you look Finnish.

[ButlerKing]

Who would be the most mixed with the paleo population, most likely the first contact was by them, Sami as language separated before Finnic where in Finland.

Also many Finns where just recently Sami, they have been assimilated, there are historical documents about this.¨

This is partly political subject, hot even, for me it is only interest in history.

If you did not know this you might also now think its possible that Finns did not bring the component, it was allready here.

It doesn't matter how someone brought the component. I just want people to understand that haplogroup N was obviously a Siberian Mongoloid component which many Finns and Swedish denies. The higher the N the higher the Mongoloid admixture. Haplogroup N reaches 80-100% in Mongoloid population where caucasian DNA reach 0% where as European or western siberian population have from 6% to 30%+

[Äijä]

It doesn't matter how someone brought the component. I just want people to understand that haplogroup N was obviously a Siberian Mongoloid component which many Finns and Swedish denies. The higher the N the higher the Mongoloid admixture. Haplogroup N reaches 80-100% in Mongoloid population where caucasian reachest 0% where as European or western siberian population have from 6% to 30%+

But you dont take the time depth in consideration and different sources of N into Finland, the 60% number does not explain anything.
Wasnt some Siberian component found in all Europeans or do I remenber wrong?

MtDNA has to be looked at also, is U5 possible?

[ButlerKing]

But you dont take the time depth in consideration and different sources of N into Finland, the 60% number does not explain anything.
Wasnt some Siberian component found in all Europeans or do I remenber wrong?

MtDNA has to be looked at also, is U5 possible?

mtDNA U5 is a western eurasian lineage. All European populations with higher frequencies N have higher Mongoloid admixture isn't this obvious? with exception of Turkish but they do have 4% N + 1.6% C3 + 0.16% O3 + 1.9% Q including 7.92% eastern eurasian mtDNA.


Finns have 100% Caucasoid mtDNA and yet you can have 7% to 9.3% Mongoloid DNA in average so it must be haplogroup N

[Äijä]

mtDNA U5 is a western eurasian lineage. All European populations with higher frequencies have higher Mongoloid admixture isn't this obvious? with exception of Turkish but they do have 4% N + 1.6% C3 + 0.16% O3 + 1.9% Q including 7.92% eastern eurasian mtDNA.


Finns have 100% Caucasoid mtDNA and yet you can have 7% to 9.3% Mongoloid DNA in average so it must be haplogroup N

Hod do you know what different MtDNA carry if they are in a totally different region, the route of the N1c we know and it does not look as good as you think.

[Äijä]

This I have missed.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-mtDNA-map.png

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_mtdna_haplogroups.shtml#Mongoloid

Look at the concentration in Sweden, how did it get there? Was it there before the Iron Age?

[ButlerKing]

This I have missed.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-mtDNA-map.png

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_mtdna_haplogroups.shtml#Mongoloid

Look at the concentration in Sweden, how did it get there? Was it there before the Iron Age?


0.5 - 1% isn't much. I already said Finns have 0.5% Mongoloid mtDNA. This marker is mtDNA Z although some study was higher but only 1 percent more.


Saami have 5% Mongoloid mtDNA on average, the Saami in Finland and sweden.
Not just in Saami but it's 7% in western Uralic population

But still 5-7% Mongoloid mtDNA cannot make someone 8 - 36% Mongoloid

Malyarchuk said that other Slavs "Mongoloid component" was increased during the waves of migration from "steppe populations (Huns, Avars, Bulgars and Mongols)", especially the decay of the "Avar Khaganate".[88]

[ButlerKing]

This supports that migration of N was accompanied by smaller lineages of females of eastern eurasian.

[Äijä]

0.5 - 1% isn't much. I already said Finns have 0.5% Mongoloid mtDNA. This marker is Y-DNA N.



Saami have 5% Mongoloid mtDNA on average, the Saami in Finland and sweden.
Not just in Saami but it's 7% in western Uralic population

But still 5-7% Mongoloid mtDNA cannot make someone 8 - 36% Mongoloid

Malyarchuk said that other Slavs "Mongoloid component" was increased during the waves of migration from "steppe populations (Huns, Avars, Bulgars and Mongols)", especially the decay of the "Avar Khaganate".[88]

The map says 2,5-5% for most of Finland, some of those Saami areas are 15-25%! There is a 10-15% area in Sweden!

If these are wrong fine.
But if you just pass what I said about the paleo population of Fennoscandia without looking into it then you have an agenda to push.

[ButlerKing]

This I have missed.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-mtDNA-map.png

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_mtdna_haplogroups.shtml#Mongoloid

Look at the concentration in Sweden, how did it get there? Was it there before the Iron Age?


Other studies shows Turks from the east and central have 10% Eastern Eurasian mtDNA with Eastern Eurasian Y-DNA 7.7% ( surprisingly haplogroup Q was 5% and N was only 2.5% and C3 was only 1.2%)

However these admixtures would have been brought by hybrisized mix race Turks anyways. mtDNA M in this study shows Indian/South Asian.

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/4175/mtdnatur.png

[Äijä]

This supports that migration of N was accompanied by smaller lineages of females of eastern eurasian.

Look at Sweden and Norway, it points that they have it also, most likely the paleo population.
Or do you claim a Finnic migration to those areas, then we are writing new history.

[Äijä]

Pure Asian MtDNA in good numbers in Fennoscndia and you just insist on N1c that has been in Europe very long with together totally European clades.

[Äijä]

This should be looked at, what are the MtDNA haplogroups in Fennoscandia, do you have them?

[ButlerKing]

The map says 2,5-5% for most of Finland, some of those Saami areas are 15-25%! There is a 10-15% area in Sweden!

If these are wrong fine.
But if you just pass what I said about the paleo population of Fennoscandia without looking into it then you have an agenda to push.


You finns have only 0.5% Mongoloid mtDNA in most study.
You have read it the wrong is 10-15% in Saami from Finland

Is only 2.9% in Swedish Saami

Nenets have 75% haplgroup N but 54% western eurasian mtdna

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/NenetsY_DNA.gif

[ButlerKing]

Look at Sweden and Norway, it points that they have it also, most likely the paleo population.
Or do you claim a Finnic migration to those areas, then we are writing new history.

I think we need samples studies to see the admixture.

Because you see those map of east Asia DNA and Northeast Asian mtDNA was apparently made a member in Europedia. I just found out about this.


Some guys said " you did a great job with those maps" I think that means someone made them.

Mongoloid mtDNA in Finns is non-existant, Saami in this study is 5%.

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2007-03/1174412643.Ge.1.jpg

[Luovatus]

actually its obvious you can see that finns and samis are mongoloid just by looking at some of them

For a swede, you should know that Sami people live all over Fennoscandinavia, especially in Sweden !

[Äijä]

You finns have only 0.5% Mongoloid mtDNA in most study.
You have read it the wrong is 10-15% in Saami from Finland


mtDNA Swedish Saami

M 1%

D5 0%

Z 1%


mtDNA Norwegians Saami

M 2.9%

D5 2.9%

Z 0%


Nenets have 75% haplgroup N but 54% western eurasian mtdna

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/NenetsY_DNA.gif

Well the map says other, he must base it to some study. I repeat, pure Asian Mtdna in Fennoscandia, should ring a bell if you are interested in the component.
But it seems you just have a fixsation to N1c, you dont even understand how N1c has spread inside Europe, it cant be a single source for the component.

[ButlerKing]

This I have missed.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-mtDNA-map.png

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_mtdna_haplogroups.shtml#Mongoloid


What the hell? Mongoloid mtDNA in Egypt. Did some Chinese guy made this to prove Ancient Egyptians were Chinese?

http://image.sciencenet.cn/album/201204/18/002857l29stodlz96dmikd.jpg

[Äijä]

I think we need samples studies to see the admixture.

Because you see those map of east Asia DNA and Northeast Asian mtDNA was apparently made a member in Europedia. I just found out about this.


Some guys said " you did a great job with those maps" I think that means someone made them.

Mongoloid mtDNA in Finns is non-existant, Saami in this study is 5%.

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2007-03/1174412643.Ge.1.jpg

It also says 2005, is that the most recent?

[ButlerKing]

It also says 2005, is that the most recent?

Well is better than some Europedia made up map.

How the hell did Mongoloid mtDNA even ended up in Tunisia anyway, he properly mistook mtDNA M for Mongoloid but is also found high Gypsy population at 30% where they migrated everywhere in the world. mtDNA M is found 60-80% in South Asians and 100% in Adamanese and dravidian isolated group of South India.

[ButlerKing]

Well the map says other, he must base it to some study. I repeat, pure Asian Mtdna in Fennoscandia, should ring a bell if you are interested in the component.
But it seems you just have a fixsation to N1c, you dont even understand how N1c has spread inside Europe, it cant be a single source for the component.

This is absolute proof that haplogroup N was originally Mongoloid

Also let's look at autosomal DNA of Ngannasans who have 93% N and 7% C3 but on mtDNA they can also have 29% western eurasian maternal DNA


http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/NganasansY_DNA.gif

15 testes samples




10 samples are = 100% pure Mongoloid /Siberian


1 Sample = 100% Mongoloid with different Siberian admixture ( Tungid, Chucki, Paleo-siberian)


2 sample = a mixture of different Mongoloid Siberian groups with small Caucasoid admixture


2 Sample = a mixture of different Mongoloid siberian groups with 36% Caucasoid admixture.



Nganassan are pure Siberian Mongoloid, there is another study that gives them 5% R1a and 14% Caucasoid maternal DNA but that's it

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UOHFTxL-bOA/TNuv_CPi9dI/AAAAAAAAALg/lG2CsRO8cso/s400/Nganassan.jpg

[Äijä]

Well is better than some Europedia made up map.

How the hell did Mongoloid mtDNA even ended up in Tunisia anyway, he properly mistook mtDNA M for Mongoloid but is also found high Gypsy population at 30% where they migrated everywhere in the world. mtDNA M is found 60-80% in South Asians and 100% in Adamanese and dravidian isolated group of South India.

Email him?

Anyways your N1c fixation is funny, do you know when the Finnic-Baltic-Scandinavian branch broke from the ones you quote in Siberia? Almost 10.000 years!
I would find out about this Asian MtDNA before insisting on the N1c spreading an Siberian component in Europe.

[Äijä]

Well is better than some Europedia made up map.

How the hell did Mongoloid mtDNA even ended up in Tunisia anyway, he properly mistook mtDNA M for Mongoloid but is also found high Gypsy population at 30% where they migrated everywhere in the world. mtDNA M is found 60-80% in South Asians and 100% in Adamanese and dravidian isolated group of South India.

The Eupedia map includes mt-haplogroups A, B, C, D, E, F, G, M7, M8, Y and Z.

I would also like to know the ones found in Fennoscandia.

[ButlerKing]

Email him?

Anyways your N1c fixation is funny, do you know when the Finnic-Baltic-Scandinavian branch broke from the ones you quote in Siberia? Almost 10.000 years!
I would find out about this Asian MtDNA before insisting on the N1c spreading an Siberian component in Europe.

Actually I don't want to have this fixation but the thing is everytime I claim N1c is Mongoloid some finns and swedish would deny me.

Look at Yakuts autosomal DNA despite having 9.7% Western Eurasian mtDNA and 2.7% R1b, 2.7% R1a, 2.7% I

How can you in one study shows 0% western eurasian admixture when you have 9.7% western Eurasian mtDNA + 8.1% Western eurasian Y-DNA including if haplogroup N is western eurasian at 75-90%?



http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/SakhaY_DNA.gif


100% Northeast Asian

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/8499/yakut10.png

[ButlerKing]

The Eupedia map includes mt-haplogroups A, B, C, D, E, F, G, M7, M8, Y and Z.

I would also like to know the ones found in Fennoscandia.

I will try to ask him. I like to know how Mongoloid mtDNA ended in Tunisia and Egypt.

You know what's funny? back than some Chinese guy was claiming ancient egyptians was Chinese and now there is Mongoloid genetic evidence

[ButlerKing]

Not just Chinese but also the crazy dogs Koreans. I called these Mongoloid selfish and disgusting people.

There is no freaking Mongoloid genetic evidence in north Africa now with that map they are going to claim they are hiding evidence of Mongoloid origin in north Africa. There is Mongoloid evidence in the way statue looks and genetic evidence for it.

Trust me, I'll bet you those lunatics are going to use that map from now on. And Indians had been claiming egyptian back than. Not just them trust me.... I was in many south Asian Indian forums and they think egyptians were north Indians


http://cdn.highwinds.steamstatic.com/steam/subs/11092/header_586x192.jpg?t=1313426965
https://sites.google.com/site/greatkorea100/greatwar.JPG

[Äijä]

Actually I don't want to have this fixation but the thing is everytime I claim N1c is Mongoloid some finns and swedish would deny me.

Look at Yakuts autosomal DNA despite having 9.7% Western Eurasian mtDNA and 2.7% R1b, 2.7% R1a, 2.7% I

How can you in one study shows 0% western eurasian admixture when you have 9.7% western Eurasian mtDNA + 8.1% Western eurasian Y-DNA including if haplogroup N is western eurasian at 75-90%?



http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/SakhaY_DNA.gif


100% Northeast Asian

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/8499/yakut10.png

Because N1c is not Mongloid in Europe, it could have been a lot of things in Eurasia but when it migrated in Finland from Estonia in the Iron Age it was not Mongoloid.

Look at the time depth! It is impossible. But those MtDNA and the Sami mix give a possible hint about the previous population of Fennoscandia.

Finnic and Germanic people are late comers there.

There is the sea that you can get to Norway from Siberia, in the Kola peninsula or Perm I think they have traces of some Siberian boat people.

[Äijä]

Not just Chinese but also the crazy dogs Koreans. I called these Mongoloid selfish and disgusting people.

There is no freaking Mongoloid genetic evidence in north Africa now with that map they are going to claim they are hiding evidence of Mongoloid origin in north Africa. There is Mongoloid evidence in the way statue looks and genetic evidence for it.

Trust me, I'll bet you those lunatics are going to use that map from now on. And Indians had been claiming egyptian back than. Not just them trust me.... I was in many south Asian Indian forums and they think egyptians were north Indians


http://cdn.highwinds.steamstatic.com/steam/subs/11092/header_586x192.jpg?t=1313426965
https://sites.google.com/site/greatkorea100/greatwar.JPG

Well that does not really matter, serious science will always prevail.

[ButlerKing]

Because N1c is not Mongloid in Europe, it could have been a lot of things in Eurasia but when it migrated in Finland from Estonia in the Iron Age it was not Mongoloid.

Look at the time depth! It is impossible. But those MtDNA and the Sami mix give a possible hint about the previous population of Fennoscandia.

Finnic and Germanic people are late comers there.

There is the sea that you can get to Norway from Siberia, in the Kola peninsula or Perm I think they have traces of some Siberian boat people.

What do you mean N1c is not Mongoloid in Europe when those N1c are 100% Mongoloid in east siberians? Yes there is mtDNA evidence but this supports that male Y-DNA N carriers had genetic relations with females of eastern eurasian.

Y-DNA N in europe is of eastern eurasian male origin, that's a fact man. Finns have very little to non-existant 0.5% Mongoloid mtDNA

Besides it shows here saami have East Eurasian mtDNA

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n10/images/ejhg2008101f1.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Well that does not really matter, serious science will always prevail.

Yes but their argument is always like science is mostly controlled by western media and to promote eurocentrism

[Äijä]

What do you mean N1c is not Mongoloid in Europe when those N1c are 100% Mongoloid in east siberians? Yes there is mtDNA evidence but this supports that male Y-DNA N carriers had genetic relations with females of eastern eurasian.

Y-DNA N in europe is of eastern eurasian male origin, that's a fact man. Finns have very little to non-existant 0.5% Mongoloid mtDNA

Besides it shows here saami have East Eurasian mtDNA

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n10/images/ejhg2008101f1.jpg

It means that after 10.000 years European N1c clades cant be called Mongoloid, it is a fallacy in grand scale.

[ButlerKing]

It means that after 10.000 years European N1c clades cant be called Mongoloid, it is a fallacy in grand scale.

What do you mean can't be called Mongoloid? Eastern Eurasian = Mongoloid. Haplogroup N1c only migrated to Finland 2000 BC.

This study was from " European Journal of Human Genetics -"

That map had already shown you

There is 3 - 15% eastern Eurasian mtDNA and 45% haplogroup N eastern Eurasian Y-DNA

There is 0.5% to 2% eastern Eurasian mtDNA and 60% haplogroup N eastern Eurasian Y-DNA

[Äijä]

N1c is an Eurasian lineage, around 10.000 years the European line mixed in the Volga area with locals.
There is no way that it would carry much of any components other than European after that time period.
They also had serious botlle neck so it was not a massive migration, most likely related to trade or technology, something important as they multiplied.

[ButlerKing]

N1c is an Eurasian lineage, around 10.000 years the European line mixed in the Volga area with locals.
There is no way that it would carry much of any components other than European after that time period.
They also had serious botlle neck so it was not a massive migration, most likely related to trade or technology, something important as they multiplied.

I like you to prove to me how it was 10,000 years old European lineage when it originated from Siberia at that time?

[Äijä]

What do you mean can't be called Mongoloid? Eastern Eurasian = Mongoloid. Haplogroup N1c only migrated to Finland 2000 BC.

This study was from " European Journal of Human Genetics -"

That map had already shown you

There is 3 - 15% eastern Eurasian mtDNA and 45% haplogroup N eastern Eurasian Y-DNA

There is 0.5% to 2% eastern Eurasian mtDNA and 60% haplogroup N eastern Eurasian Y-DNA

It migrated to Finland at around 500 BC more likely, it has been in Europe for 10.000 years.

European Russia is Europe, the Finnic lived beside the Indo-Europeans in the same area around Volga.

Who lived in Fennoscandia at that time we dont know, it is under research.

[Äijä]

I like you to prove to me how it was 10,000 years old European lineage when it originated from Siberia at that time?

I said perivously around 10.000, no one knows for sure, the estimate in Europe is 8000, it does not change the basic calculus.

[ButlerKing]

It migrated to Finland at around 500 BC more likely, it has been in Europe for 10.000 years.

European Russia is Europe, the Finnic lived beside the Indo-Europeans in the same area around Volga.

Who lived in Fennoscandia at that time we dont know, it is under research.

If you include western Siberia as Europe. part of eastern europe had no european population during that time.

What are you trying to say that haplogroup N was indo-european? Carriers of N all speak Uralic languages or are you trying to say haplogroup N was originally Mongoloid but after 10,000 years of intermixing they had become a European marker?

[Äijä]

If you include western Siberia as Europe.

What are you trying to say that haplogroup N was indo-european? Carriers of N all speak Uralic languages or are you trying to say haplogroup N was originally Mongoloid but after 10,000 years of intermixing they had become a European marker?

Volga is not in Western Siberia.

Well the Baltic N1c looks more like an IE marker, it is different from the Finnic.

Baltic is heavily N1c, they dont speak Uralic but an archaic IE language.

[ButlerKing]

I said perivously around 10.000, no one knows for sure, the estimate in Europe is 8000, it does not change the basic calculus.

Well there is northeast Asian component in Finland on average 7%, other shows 9.3% and some samples were 12%. These are component that reachest 100% in east siberians and they have 80-100% N

Even if Saami had Mongoloid mtDNA there is no way that you fiins who have only 0.5% to 2.% Mongoloid mtDNA is responsible for more than 2% of such components that means others would have come from N1c.

[ButlerKing]

Volga is not in Western Siberia.

Well the Baltic N1c looks more like an IE marker, it is different from the Finnic.

Baltic is heavily N1c, they dont speak Uralic but an archaic IE language.

Baltic have 40-50% R1 for your info with 27 - 36% N1c

[ButlerKing]

Volga is not in Western Siberia.

Well the Baltic N1c looks more like an IE marker, it is different from the Finnic.

Baltic is heavily N1c, they dont speak Uralic but an archaic IE language.


Volga in Russia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Volga_in_Russia.svg

[Äijä]

Baltic have 40-50% R1 for your info with 27 - 36% N1c

And how much of the component?

[Äijä]

Volga in Russia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Volga_in_Russia.svg

Is that Siberia in your books? That is where the Finnic and Indo-Europeans originate anyways.

[ButlerKing]

And how much of the component?

Baltic people

32% - 38% R1a
6% - 8% R1b

This is more similar to Russian and Ukranians 55-60% R1a with 10-18% R1b

[ButlerKing]

Is that Siberia in your books? That is where the Finnic and Indo-Europeans originate anyways.

Yes is Siberia, the province next to them are inhabited by very Mongoloid looking people with very high Y-DNA N

[Äijä]

Yes is Siberia, the province next to them are inhabited by very Mongoloid looking people with very high Y-DNA N

Today, there was this thing called Mongol invasion.

You understand that Indo-Europeans also come for there originally?

It is not Siberia, Volga is the largest river in Europe.

[Äijä]

Baltic people

32% - 38% R1a
6% - 8% R1b

This is more similar to Russian and Ukranians 55-60% R1a with 10-18% R1b

I asked how much Siberian do they have?

[ButlerKing]

Today, there was this thing called Mongol invasion.

You understand that Indo-Europeans also come for there originally?

It is not Siberia, Volga is the largest river in Europe.

Well sorry, I really don't know because that was never a slav speaking area and besides most of the population look mixed with Mongoloid

[ButlerKing]

I asked how much Siberian do they have?

Oh I get it. They have 2 - 6% Siberian DNA.

[Äijä]

Well sorry, I really don't know because that was never a slav speaking area and besides most of the population look mixed with Mongoloid

With your argument IE folk where also Mongoloids.

[ButlerKing]

With your argument IE folk where also Mongoloids.

You're asking that it originated from Volga well other hyphothesis is around caucasus or southern russia close to Ukraine.

That Volga area today is not a caucasian area and haplogroup C3 is only few percent but haplogroup N1c is high

[Äijä]

You're asking that it originated from Volga well other hyphothesis is around caucasus or southern russia close to Ukraine.

That Volga area today is not a caucasian area and haplogroup C3 is only few percent but haplogroup N1c is high

:D

Seriously? Excluding the Tatars or mingling with them they are Caucasoids.

The linguists agree that the Uralics and Indo-Europeans are closely connected.

[ButlerKing]

:D

Seriously? Excluding the Tatars or mingling with them they are Caucasoids.

The linguists agree that the Uralics and Indo-Europeans are closely connected.

Well yeah, there is a big slavic population and even caucasus migrant.

No the linguist do not agree. If there is similarity is usually because they exchanged words, linguist claim Uralic are even closer to Turkic and that they share the same family but that's because they exchanged words and influenced eachother.

[Äijä]

Oh I get it. They have 2 - 6% Siberian DNA.

Could from the R1a also. :D

[ButlerKing]

Could from the R1a also. :D

It would seem the anthropology of Finnic and Urals are both different

http://i46.tinypic.com/d61ad.jpg

[Äijä]

It would seem the anthropology of Finnic and Urals are both different

http://i46.tinypic.com/d61ad.jpg

What is this, the Norse colum is pure fun.

[ButlerKing]

Could from the R1a also. :D

Let's not post Y-DNA, mtDNA, Autosomal map from Europedia. I didn't know they were created by one individual member in Europedia. I mean Mongoloid admixture in north Africa is insane.

Russia, Finland both have 6-7% East Eurasian DNA where as Chuvash have 18%



However other studies gives Chuvash from 25-27% Mongoloid on average

Chuvash
http://i46.tinypic.com/xoqsrq.png

50% are between 25% - 27% Mongoloid


2 samples: 27% Mongoloid
3 Samples: 26% Mongoloid
3 Samples: 25.5% Mongoloid
1 Sample: 25% Mongoloid

-----------

38.88% are between 21% Mongoloid to 24.8% Mongoloid

1 Sample: 24.8% Mongoloid
1 Sample: 24% Mongoloid
1 Sample: 23.5% Mongoloid
3 Sample: 22% Mongoloid
1 sample: 21% Mongoloid


-------------

5.55% are 6% Mongoloid

1 Sample: 6% Mongoloid


Some Chuvash do look more Mongoloid.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_85ACsZ2kALY/TBwBxDNmLEI/AAAAAAAAHDs/xZoiFnmui0E/s1600/1935+Chuvash+Girls.JPG
http://www.bumc.bu.edu/derm/files/2010/09/Andrey-sharov-251x300.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/cv/thumb/b/bc/Sespel.jpg/200px-Sespel.jpg
http://www.nndb.com/people/778/000051625/nikolayev_andriyan-smaller.jpg
http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/gallery/100712/GAL-10Jul12-5123/media/PHO-10Jul12-237530.jpg

[ButlerKing]

They have 9.1% Mongoloid mtDNA and 1.3 C3 but now look at their Y-DNA N, although other studies give them 18% Mongoloid mtDNA however Y-DNA is N2 and N3 which are eastern Eurasian is 42% in Chuvash




http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/ChuvashY_DNA.gif


Mongoloid autosomal Siberian is mostly 25% - 30% + in Chuvash in this study

9.1% to 18% Mongoloid mtDNA can not possibly make them 25-30% + Mongoloid besides 9.1% to 18% would only make them at best 4.2% to 9% Mongoloid at best the only explanation is N here is Mongoloid


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Azbx10jikuY/TZoqDAfXZvI/AAAAAAAAAC0/jzfoDacSMcg/s1600/chuvash.png

[ButlerKing]

If a caucasoid population have 18% Mongoloid mtDNA + 18% Mongoloid Y-DNA they would be 18% Mongoloid however if all you have is 18% Mongoloid than you will have to split it to only 9% Mongoloid.

[ButlerKing]

What is this, the Norse colum is pure fun.

I think it shows there is no pure mostly subrace today except for Jews and Basque. We are all a mixture of every European migrant here and there.

Real norse is only 10% alive, maybe in some cities or province is higher than 25%

[Peikko]

West Finland only has this frequency of Haplogroup I because of the Swedes who live there. Most of the country is Mongolic-influenced.
Actually I1 is higher among Finns, than Finland-Swedes. It's pretty interesting.


I is common where most of the population has lived for the past 2000+ years, Finland Proper, Satakunta, Bothnias, Tavastia, Bircaland..:rolleyes2:

It is accompanied by "Baltic/Scandinavian/Varangian" N1c lines, that is the core areas of Finland, its population and its culture.

East Finns are a more recent addition to this tribe called Finns.
Actually, the oldest Finns would be West Coast Finns. Tavastians are East Finns.


Estonians for example have 40% haplogroup R1 where as Finland have 7% R1

Estonians for example have 15% haplogroup I where as Finland have 29% I

Estonians for example have 34% haplogroup N where as Finland have 60% N

There is nothing in common between the Baltic Y-DNA and Finns except for haplogroup N which originated from Finns.
Estonia has come through some heavy influence from Russians, which is why they are so different from Finns.


actually its obvious you can see that finns and samis are mongoloid just by looking at some of them
Where do you suppose your looks come from, your Swedish or your Hungarian side?

[Äijä]

Actually, the oldest Finns would be West Coast Finns. Tavastians are East Finns.







Tavastians are basically all the West Finns, sure there are differences with maybe Bircaland being somewhat a frontier at that time but it is basically a 200x200km area where they all are inside.

They all spoke Tavastian dialects at the time, Satakunta has the most Germanic admix but they all are separate from East Finns.

[Äijä]

I think it shows there is no pure mostly subrace today except for Jews and Basque. We are all a mixture of every European migrant here and there.

Real norse is only 10% alive, maybe in some cities or province is higher than 25%

Well it shows Finnic are purest at least so it has to be accurate, lol.

[ButlerKing]

Well it shows Finnic are purest at least so it has to be accurate, lol.

Thracian, ( I think greeks, macedonian, Albanians ) are mostly pure too, Russians too.

Finnic phenotype properly evolved from a mixture of Urals and Germanic.

[Peikko]

Tavastians are basically all the West Finns, sure there are differences with maybe Bircaland being somewhat a frontier at that time but it is basically a 200x200km area where they all are inside.

They all spoke Tavastian dialects at the time, Satakunta has the most Germanic admix but they all are separate from East Finns.
I think that the original Finnics had some mongoloid admix, though. Like, there certainly is an element like that in Estonia:
http://valitsus.ee/UserFiles/valitsus/Image/RKListings/14463.jpg
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRQLr_oD05UrZkKOAtmaSDnldj7_GuCn DkQVvDDEP5-5151fjS8http://sport.etv.ee/failid/5597.jpg

[Äijä]

I think that the original Finnics had some mongoloid admix, though. Like, there certainly is an element like that in Estonia:
http://valitsus.ee/UserFiles/valitsus/Image/RKListings/14463.jpg
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRQLr_oD05UrZkKOAtmaSDnldj7_GuCn DkQVvDDEP5-5151fjS8http://sport.etv.ee/failid/5597.jpg

Possible but we should test those people before saying it is a fact, we know the history of Estonia..
I would do anything for Iron Age samples from Finland and Estonia.

[Luovatus]

I found more of (some) you here... Ooo, I just LOVE being a Finn :high5

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/37342-Saami-mongoloid-haplgroups-from-Finns-Sweden-Norway-(-mtDNA-Y-DNA-haplogroups)/page10

http://www.pienipaatospaivassa.fi/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/MiehetSaunassa_960x540px.jpg

[Peikko]

I found more of (some) you here... Ooo, I just LOVE being a Finn :high5

No homo.

[Luovatus]

No homo.

?

[Hweinlant]

Russia, Finland both have 6-7% East Eurasian DNA where as Chuvash have 18%

Here's a nice tool for you. Use it.

http://admixturemap.paintmychromosomes.com/

[Peikko]

?
Oh you're a girl, never mind :)

[scottch]

...

[FeederOfRavens]

Halotype I1 reaches over 40% in Eastern England as well, it's a pre Indo-European halogroup though not IE, it arrived from Scandinavia to England during the viking age. It's only found in a low precent of Irish men, around 5%.


Actually it reaches 20%.

[scottch]

Actually it reaches 20%.

20% on average throughout England. Reaches up to 40% in North East England couldnt find a map of North East but it's around 30% in Norfolk as well.

http://shissem.com/y-chromo.png


Map of halogroup I's Iberian origin and spread throughout Europe

http://www.stsci.edu/~marel/gifdir/Imigration.jpg

[FeederOfRavens]

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I1.gif

http://danel.us/resources/M423.gif

[Peikko]

What's more, this I1 population isn't accompanied by any reasonable amount of R1a and/or R1b which would strongly favor indo-european origins.
So they probably spoke some kind of a hunter-gatherer language, something uralic can't be excluded and is plausible.

You might want to rethink that.

An archaic (Northwest-)Indo-European language and a subsequently extinct Paleo-European language were likely spoken in what is now called Finland and Estonia, when the linguistic ancestors of the Finns and the Sami arrived in the eastern and northern Baltic Sea region from the Volga-Kama region probably at the beginning of the Bronze Age
https://helda.helsinki.fi/handle/10138/135714

[Guapo]

No surprise. I1-M253(true non-indo euros) should be considered a Scandinavian/Baltic haplogroup, not mainland celto-Germanic. Russians and Saami have more I1-M253 than Danes or Germans thanks to Swedish/Baltic Rus. Germans/Dutch/Belgians are mixed with more Celto-swarth R1b percentage and it shows, look at Van Persie and Van nistelrooy. R1a is predominant in Slavic Austria as well.


Notice also that Saami have around 50% I1

of course they do because it is Scandinavian in origin, not mainland celto-Germanic.

[Black Wolf]

No surprise. I1-M253(true non-indo euros) should be considered a Scandinavian/Baltic haplogroup, not mainland celto-Germanic. Russians and Saami have more I1-M253 than Danes or Germans thanks to Swedish/Baltic Rus. Germans/Dutch/Belgians are mixed with more Celto-swarth R1b percentage and it shows, look at Van Persie and Van nistelrooy. R1a is predominant in Slavic Austria as well.



of course they do because it is Scandinavian in origin, not mainland celto-Germanic.

We actually do not know where I1-M253 originated. It may have originated in Scandinavia but it could have just as easily originated in Eastern Europe. The Neolithic I1-M253 result from Hungary which was recently discovered may provide some clues. We need many more ancient samples first though before anything can be said for certain.

[Sawolainen]

mtDNA U5 is a western eurasian lineage. All European populations with higher frequencies N have higher Mongoloid admixture isn't this obvious? with exception of Turkish but they do have 4% N + 1.6% C3 + 0.16% O3 + 1.9% Q including 7.92% eastern eurasian mtDNA.


Finns have 100% Caucasoid mtDNA and yet you can have 7% to 9.3% Mongoloid DNA in average so it must be haplogroup N

You are a freakin' idiot. Lithuanians have 42% haplogroup N yet 0 East Asian/Siberian admixture. Why is that Einstein??

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdGhPS3pMaTZwUUhWbTd0S0hnVkM5M 3c#gid=0

[Peterski]

We actually do not know where I1-M253 originated.

Now we maybe know - it is quite probable, that in Hungary (there the oldest I1 so far has been found, in the LBKT culture):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Pottery_culture

[ButlerKing]

You are a freakin' idiot. Lithuanians have 42% haplogroup N yet 0 East Asian/Siberian admixture. Why is that Einstein??

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdGhPS3pMaTZwUUhWbTd0S0hnVkM5M 3c#gid=0

You wish you dumb idiot. And besides last time I checked Lithuanians had only 27% N1c1 and that is related with Finland.

No surprise though since Lithuianians dominant number is R1a 44.9% . They are mixture of Slavic and Finland people whoe 65% haplogroup N have only have 6-15% Mongoloid admixture

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Oa3bBts6e3M/Ur6VH_81tpI/AAAAAAAAAUI/JGoPs1UmWyA/s1600/Lazaridis2014_EDF3_K6.png