Is a College Diploma really worth it?

[Stegura]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl_24uSPedM&feature=player_embedded

[Stegura]

This guy has a really good string of videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V11kQSg33TI

http://www.youtube.com/user/DontGoToCollege

[Tabiti]

Here it's worth for finding a job. However, all young people now have college diplomas, so it depends on the university. If you ask me, education is nothing these days, at least the affordable for middle class one.

[Imperivm]

Here it's worth for finding a job. However, all young people now have college diplomas, so it depends on the university. If you ask me, education is nothing these days, at least the affordable for middle class one.

I see you are from Bulgaria. In September I should be coming to your land to study at one of your university's (english speaking). What is your word on them? :thumb001:

[Cail]

It's a pass to earning more by working less.

[nisse]

Here most people go to uni because they've got no other ideas of what they can do after graduating high school (god forbid they should go into the work force/to college and end up with a "lowly" job of say a plumber :rolleyes:...nevermind that plumbers are in great demand, are very "useful" to society, and make a tonne)...Some don't finish uni, but even the ones that do, just end up with shitty administrative jobs for the most part (unless they get a professional degree)

[Loki]

Most good jobs have certain minimum educational background requirements. So yes, it is very valuable most of the time. It won't necessarily help you become rich, but without it life will be a lot harder, and you will have to work harder to prove yourself if you want to make career progress.

[Eldritch]

Here most people go to uni because they've got no other ideas of what they can do after graduating high school (god forbid they should go into the work force/to college and end up with a "lowly" job of say a plumber :rolleyes:...nevermind that plumbers are in great demand, are very "useful" to society, and make a tonne)...Some don't finish uni, but even the ones that do, just end up with shitty administrative jobs for the most part (unless they get a professional degree)

If I could have my time again I wouldn't even go to high school. Just elementary ---> trade school to become a plumber, carpenter, electrician, mechanic, whatever ---> then by the time I was 19 I'd be earning as much or more (and have much more job security) than humanities students who don't graduate till 26, 28 or 30. By that age I'd probably have my own small company with a few employees/apprentices set up and be, well, if not rolling in it, probably doing pretty well at least.

[Sol Invictus]

College is worth it. It opened up a whole window of opportunities for me. I've had the phone ringing off the hook from private security firms in the city wanting to interview me and have me work for them. Right now I'm working for one of one of the giants in the industry, enforcing property, traffic and city by-laws in downtown Toronto. I strike up tickets which earns revenue for the city I live in and give people a sense of security in amongst some of the roughest neighbourhoods. I just finished a 12 hour overnight and clearing 20 dollars an hour and I owe every bit of it to my education. :coffee:

[Rachel]

I have An AA and will have a BS at the end of 2012 and i am hoping that my college dipolma will mean something. However in America it's starting to be a way to hook new and innovative teachers into really shitty schools. By giving students money for their education while their in college they must then return the favor by working in a low income school district. So while one has job security for four to eight years.this option may not be the most convinent for teachers.

There are other programs that offer school money in exchange for work for a certian number of years. So if you really like your job great if not,then you just sold your soul to the devil for an education.

[Grey]

It's a pass to earning more by working less.

You say that like it's a bad thing. In general, although you do less manual labor, the work you are doing is more productive and requires more specialization, and therefore your job is more valuable. Any idiot can break his back for a living, which means they can easily be replaced and hence aren't that valuable. From the company's standpoint, I mean.

[SuuT]

...(god forbid they should go into the work force/to college and end up with a "lowly" job of say a plumber :rolleyes:...nevermind that plumbers are in great demand, are very "useful" to society, and make a tonne) ...

Most plumbers (who are in business for themselves) are millionaires after 5 years, too. They're no dummies. And they are their own boss!:thumb001: - Priceless.


A degree is absolutely worth the time and effort: There is a direct cause and effect relationship between someone's educational level and earnings, generally speaking. And specialised trade education (like Plumbers, craftsmen) make a mint as well.

I think the most important correlation, however, is that the more educated one is, the more they are - again, generally speaking - the master of their own destiny.:cool:


Go to school!;):)

[Cail]

You say that like it's a bad thing.
Actually, quite the opposite, lol. Why would it be bad to work less and earn more?

[Birka]

Many of my friends that are my age who did not go to college have a variety of physical problems today. Bad knees, shoulders and hips from years of repetitive physical labor. When you are in your 20's and 30's, you can work all day long and feel good. But when you start to hit 40's and 50's, all those joints start to ache.

My friend who was a painter can hardly move his shoulder. A machinist has lots of problems with his hands and wrists. A carpet layer has already had operations on his knees, and lots of physical therapy on his shoulders, and he in not yet 40.

With a college degree, you usually do not put in 3 or 4 decades of repetitive physical labor.

[Stegura]

By posting these videos, I don't mean to rant against college or anything. However, I do think they make alot of valid points.

College is worth it if you're pursuing a profession like Medicine to be become a Nurse, Doctor, or a Physician, etc. College is worth it if you pursue a degree in Education in order to become a Teacher or a Professor. College is worth it if you're studying Law. College is worth it if you're studying Computers in order to get in IT Certification. College is worth it if you get into a good Business school. Basically, College is worth it if your degree will get you a License or a Certification that will open the door to a profitable and rewarding career.

However, College isn't worth it if you graduate with a Liberal Arts Degree (History, Media Studies, Social Work, Biology, English, etc.). Such degrees just don't give you any marketable skills for the real world job market. A Liberal Arts Degree doesn't prepare you for anything, it doesn't qualify you for anything, and it doesn't certify you for anything.

I graduated back in 2007 with a Degree in Social Sciences (a mixture of History, Geography, and Political Science), and I'm sad to say that it's essentially worthless. Likewise, I have quite a few friends who graduated with Liberal Arts Degree's and they're also struggling to find REAL JOBS. By real jobs I mean salaried work, Monday-Friday 9am-5pm work in an office with benefits. Basically, 2-3 years after receiving their Liberal Arts Degree they're still living at home with their parents and doing the same jobs they did straight out of High School. Many of them are also still pretty deep in Credit Card Debt from the Student Loans they took out to pay for College. The few people I knew who got well paying and satisfying jobs with a Liberal Arts Degree often had connections and knew the right people.

Sad to say, I'm in a similar situation. However, I was lucky that my parents paid for all of my college education.

I've noticed that people in my situation often pursue three different paths at this point.

1. They've likely been working at a Restaurant or in retail for 2-3 years after college. They stay that path, put in lots of hours and eventually work their way up to Supervisor, Assistant Manager, and then to General Manager.

2. Some are sick of their dead end jobs and are attracted to the benefits and job security that the Military provides. Their Liberal Arts will atleast get them the rack of E-4 or potentially even an Officer. Some stay in for 4 years learn a skill/trade and then get out, others make a career out of it.

3. After 2-3 years of working dead end jobs, they return to School. Only this time they attend a Trade/Vocational school or an Apprenticeship program where they can work, learn, and earn at the same time. Such schools are often loaded with people in their mid to late 20's, with many of their students actually being former college graduates.

After I graduated in 2007. I held out for awhile attending job fairs and sending out resumes. Unfortunately, I never had any luck. I spent about 6 months holding out for that one rewarding full-time job, but it never came. It just seems that today a Liberal Arts Degree is often looked at the same way a High School Diploma is.

So after two years of waiting tables, doing telemarketing, and doing Landscaping work. I'm looking to pursue option #3 which I listed above. I'll be turning 26 in February and I really need to start doing something worthwhile with my life.

Right now I'm looking to get into a good Work/Apprenticeship program in the Fall.

[SwordoftheVistula]

It's a pass to earning more by working less.

That was true in the past, when not as many people had degrees, but now that everyone has one, this is no longer true.


Here most people go to uni because they've got no other ideas of what they can do after graduating high school (god forbid they should go into the work force/to college and end up with a "lowly" job of say a plumber :rolleyes:...nevermind that plumbers are in great demand, are very "useful" to society, and make a tonne)

Yeah, that's a problem with society, is it misleads people away from jobs like plumber and tells people they won't be successful unless they go to college, when in reality this is not true. All through growing up I always heard from teachers, family, and society in general that going to college was the way to be successful, and had the general impression that plumbers, carpenters, truck drivers, crane operators, mechanics, etc all made little more than minimum wage and generally lived impoverished lives.


College is worth it if you pursue a degree in Education in order to become a Teacher or a Professor. College is worth it if you're studying Law. College is worth it if you're studying Computers in order to get in IT Certification. College is worth it if you get into a good Business school

This is no longer true, as these jobs were hit hard by the recent stock market crash. Many people who have been doing these jobs for a long time are still making very good money, but others have been laid off, and there is essentially no opportunity for new people in these fields since the layoffs caused by the recession created a large poor of experienced workers desperate for jobs.

Elementary/Secondary teachers: I saw a report recently that all fields are flooded, except for math teachers which are still in demand. Adding to the problem is so many people laid off in other fields now wanting to be teachers, and many of the random humanities students also try to go into teaching after graduation. Also with the real estate crash/recession local property taxes are done and most school districts are having to make budget cuts.

Law: Hit very hard by recession. May bounce back if/when recession ends, but is becoming increasingly saturated.

IT: Huge opportunities in late 90s, the damage was done more by the outsourcing in the early-mid 00s, though there are still a lot of high paying jobs in this area, and graduates with certifications can still usually get decent paying jobs. Problems come if you are older IT workers, due to rapidly changing technology I have known many older IT workers (40s or so) who have a very hard time finding jobs after getting laid off, even before the recent crash/recession.

Business: Flooded, a huge number of people now have degrees in this field, plus the recent crash/recession hit this area hard, and in addition the ongoing downsizing & outsourcing.


Nursing and other medical areas are still in huge demand and look to be for some time, also hard sciences and engineering.

[SuuT]

Anyone in pursuit of a degree in the Social Sciences/Humanities that wasn't told that they would require post-graduate education to survive in the world job market in that field was done a huge disservice by their college advisor. But in my experience, advisors attempt to beat this into the heads of students from freshman year on - and they just don't listen. They graduate, and subsequently forget that they 'were told so'.

In most of the Western world, a business degree has been essentially worthless since the mid-90's (due to market saturation); however, even now, a baccalaureate of Business can expect to make at least $1,000,000 more dollars over the course of their working life that they otherwise would have.

I'm not sure where S.O.V. is getting his information about Law; but Intellectual property Law, Contract Law, Health Law, Environmental Law and Personal Injury Law have never been bigger. Although I can see where an argument against pursuing General Practise could be made.

[Rachel]

My B.A. will be in social science with a concentration in teaching and a minor in business. So far from the posts above it seems that i have my bases covered. However i always have a nice comfy job with the government should i want to forgo looking for jobs right out of college. So i am very happy that i am set with a job at least currently. However it does seem worthless to me, to put in all this time and effort , do all the work of teachers and then throw it away for some comfy goverment job. I am just not sure yet what is going to happen.


However on another nots, it should be noted that networking in todays job market is essentially the most important tool anyone has in obtaining a job.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Anyone in pursuit of a degree in the Social Sciences/Humanities that wasn't told that they would require post-graduate education to survive in the world job market in that field was done a huge disservice by their college advisor. But in my experience, advisors attempt to beat this into the heads of students from freshman year on - and they just don't listen. They graduate, and subsequently forget that they 'were told so'.

If so, that's just one lonely voice in the wilderness, that students talk to maybe once or twice a quarter/semester. In my observation, students who go into Social Sciences/Humanities have already made their minds up well before they even begin applying for colleges. At least, that they are going to college directly after high school in the first place, having had this drummed into heads as an expectation all through childhood by parents, teachers, and society in general; then they go into a Social Sciences/Humanities subject because it's a subject they enjoy and/or it is easy. The concept of finding a job occurs to these people at the time of graduation, give or take a few months.


In most of the Western world, a business degree has been essentially worthless since the mid-90's (due to market saturation); however, even now, a baccalaureate of Business can expect to make at least $1,000,000 more dollars over the course of their working life that they otherwise would have.

Well if they are making "at least $1,000,000 more dollars over the course of their working life that they otherwise would have" then it's not "essentially worthless"? Or are you agreeing with journalist in the initial story that these people would have had the higher income even if they had been locked in a closet instead of going to college? Or that those who got their degrees prior to the mid-90's "can expect to make at least $1,000,000 more dollars over the course of their working life that they otherwise would have" but that it's essentially worthless for those who got their degrees after the mid-90s (this latter statement is the one closest to the truth in my opinion)


I'm not sure where S.O.V. is getting his information about Law; but Intellectual property Law, Contract Law, Health Law, Environmental Law and Personal Injury Law have never been bigger.

There's still money to be made in those areas, but not for new/recent entrants. In regards to IP specifically, even the US patent office is not hiring last I heard, and one of my profs who ran one of the larger firms in the area had to have layoffs for the first time in his career. Almost none of the people I graduated with have found full time legal employment. At the place I work now, there are 2 people with law degrees working for $7.50/hr. Paralegals I think are not in quite as bad shape since many firms are shifting work to them that they might otherwise have hired actual lawyers for in the past, but one of my friends is about to get laid off from his paralegal job too.

Some media articles:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/12/business/12law.html

You know things are bad when even lawyers are getting laid off.

In downturns of years past, law firms exploited corporate failures and bitter, protracted lawsuits to keep busy and keep billing. But in this still-unfolding crisis, the embittered and the bankrupt have been relatively slow to appear, at least in court.

Law firms in turn are feeling the strain. Thelen and Heller Ehrman, two firms whose deep San Francisco roots extend back decades, have collapsed outright, in part because of the business slowdown. Each firm left several hundred lawyers out in the cold. Many others, including Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal and Katten Muchin Rosenman, two Chicago firms ranked among the nation’s hundred most profitable by American Lawyer magazine, and the international giant Clifford Chance have jettisoned dozens of associates.

Still others, like Powell Goldstein, a firm based in Atlanta with more than 200 lawyers, are merging with larger rivals in deals that may be bids for stability. Over all, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported on Friday that the legal services industry lost more than 1,000 jobs in October.

This is not how it is supposed to work; businesses are supposed to need lawyers in good times and bad alike.

A wave of big company litigation — those suits that pit armies of associates against each other — has also not materialized. A recent survey by one big firm, Fulbright & Jaworski, found fewer large companies reporting new lawsuits against them this year. Although executives may desperately want to sue one another over recent losses, they may not know how big those losses are or want to know how big they are. In any event, cash is precious in this downturn, and litigation is both costly and risky.


http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/biglaw_laid_off_more_than_12000_people_in_2009_the _worst_year_ever/

Last year was the worst year ever for layoffs at large law firms, but there is one bright spot in the statistics: The pace is slowing.

According to the blog LawShucks, 12,196 people were laid off at 138 large law firms tracked last year. In all, 4,633 lawyers and 7,563 staffers lost their jobs.

[Óttar]

I think it has to do with whether you are in the middle class or better. If you are poor and you want a Master's or Ph.D., go for it. Otherwise, focus on practical certifications.

[Hrimskegg]

And soon everyone will be getting Masters degrees... I wish the world would stop ruining academia.

[Svanhild]

I study a rather worthless bachelor degree course, the new BA degree of Social Works/Arts. My motivation behind it is not to earn a lot of money later because studying social sciences is the falsest way to go if you want to become rich and famous. :wink Almost all bricklayers or tilers with basic school education earn a higher net salary than certified social pedagogues. It's my idealism that motivates me to wrestle trough the concentrated study. Unfortunately, the sector of certified social pedagogues is soaked with leftwingers and liberals who indoctrinate our youngsters with weak ideas of multiculturalism and guilt. To cut the matter short, I want to set a contra-part with my work later. Plenty people underestimate the importance of the social sector for the well-being of a nation.

In Germany, the new Master and Bachelor degrees have an awfully bad reputation. They were created in the wake of of the Bologna process to bring all academic degrees in Europe into line. The process brought inconsistencies, continual exams and massive discontentment to the students and professors.

[Óttar]

massive discontentment to the students and professors.
When I was in Berlin, people were protesting the Americanisation of the European University system. Personally I like the European system because the professor is there for support, but it's ultimately up to the student to read and know his stuff before the exam rolls around. I think though that a happy medium should be established, so that the student can develop their writing skills.

[Stegura]

Nursing and other medical areas are still in huge demand and look to be for some time, also hard sciences and engineering.

Where I live the healthcare industry is booming. Williamsburg, VA. has a reputation for being an affluent retirement community. New Nursing homes and Living Assistance communities are being built in and around the area on a yearly basis.

In addition to looking at Work Apprentice programs I'm also getting more interested in possibly getting into Nursing.

A few local community colleges/vocational schools offer 18 month LPN Certification programs for a very low cost.

LPN's start off at $16-18 per hour or $32,000-$35,000. After a few years if it goes well you can always go back to school for one year and work your way up to an RN position. You get great benefits and you have very high job security.

[Grumpy Cat]

Depends what you take. But if I could have done it all over again, I would have not went to university and just went to community college. Community college prepares you for the workforce, all I gained from university was student loan debt.

[Stegura]

, all I gained from university was student loan debt.

American Universities are a Service Industry. You pay to get an experience, You go to get away from your parents. You go to College for the freedom. You go to college to find out what it's like live on your own. You go to College to be exposed to different people. In High School you only communicate with people who grew up within a few miles of your hometown. In College, you meet people from all over your home state, from other states, and even from other countries. You go to college in order go to parties and get shitfaced drunk. You go to College to travel, to go on road trips and visit old friends at other Universities. You go to college in order to engage yourself in countless Madden/NCAA Football and Halo/Goldeneye/First Person Shooter video game tournaments. You go to College to tailgate and support you Universities Football and Basketball teams. (Community Colleges obviously don't have FBS OR FCS Athletic Programs).

I guess I was one of the lucky ones who had well-off parents who were willing to give me a free ride and pay for everything.

I just picked an easy major and goofed off. I'd stay up until the wee hours of the night and get up in the early afternoon. Since I had an easy major I could skip half of my classes and still make the Deans List most semesters.

Sure it was a fun time. Lots of parties! Housing was free! Food was free! Books and supplies were free!!

But the more I look back at my four years of college, I've come to realize that it was more like an expensive daycare center then an institute of higher learning.

[SwordoftheVistula]

I think it has to do with whether you are in the middle class or better. If you are poor and you want a Master's or Ph.D., go for it. Otherwise, focus on practical certifications.

Wouldn't it be the reverse-for the reasons Stegura described? The upper middle class and better can get the degree, but it's a bad idea for the moderate to lower income to get in debt for it?


the European system because the professor is there for support, but it's ultimately up to the student to read and know his stuff before the exam rolls around.

How is that different from the American system? No mandatory attendence, assignments, and class participation there?

[Groenewolf]

I do not know if it is really worth it. On one side while getting it you are trained in certain skills that are good, but on the other hand you are bound to political/philosophical world view of your professors and can become handicapped by it.

That being said, I study culture sciences. More for my own interest then to make a buck with it.:coffee:

[Radojica]

I had that opportunity to work since i was 8 years old. I was working at one dirty open market next to Romanians,Bulgarians and Chinese. I was working at one Danube port carrying 50kg bags and smuggling cigarrettes all before i turned 16. The worst thing that made me be a good boy and which made me to decide that i will go to university was that open market which was the worst period in my life. Madre realized that and started to scare me if i dont go to school nd fax she will personally find me my own spot at that market. Of course,when i saw where and how i can end up if i stay with elementary school only i started to study like crazy :lol:! Madre is the law :thumbs

[Liffrea]

It’s simply about why you want to study in the first place, what do we value an education for? Is it of worth in itself or just another edge in a competitive market place?

I studied archaeology at Leicester University for three years, a professional field archaeologist in the UK earns around £14K a year….to be honest you can probably earn nearly as much as a full time shelf stacker at your local supermarket….which is another thing I personally know many people my age who are graduates and who are now shelf stacking or working on check outs, including a medical graduate. When I worked at Rolls Royce I was on £25K a year, and that job required no qualifications…..you want money? Don’t study archaeology, unless you want to go into lecturing.

In the UK the government has a target of 50% university educated, which is bizarre, there are no job prospects for the vast majority of graduates, I read a study not long back that found nearly two thirds of UK graduates were working in jobs which did not require any form of higher qualification, and the numbers, like me, out of work for one reason or another isn’t insubstantial either. When I went to university in 1999 the Labour government had just scrapped tuition fees and introduced student loans, we now owe the government! A master stroke on their part.

For me it was worth it, the pursuit of wealth has never been a concern for me, I actually have savings out of my dole cheque, that’s how little I actually spend, I don’t regret studying archaeology, I knew the job prospects beyond voluntary work were pretty poor and the financial rewards woeful, but I love the subject and value knowledge for itself, it set me on a path to study, which I still have, I study all sorts of things that, materially and financially are worth nothing, unless I wish to teach, which I have neither the patience nor inclination to do, not in the UK anyway. I hasten to add I have nothing against those who study purely for financial gain, good look to them I hope they get what they want, I’m not some sort of anti-materialist, anti-wealth type, just stating why I study and what it means to me.

[Sigrid]

It has to also be said that college is not for everyone, either. Some people just can't hack it. We, in society, do need occupations that don't require a degree/diploma, like the food service industry. There will also always be a need for janitors and housekeepers. There will always be people in these industries. Just because one person has an advanced degree doesn't make them a better or more worthwhile person than the person who does not. I just wanted to throw that out there.

[SwordoftheVistula]

It’s simply about why you want to study in the first place, what do we value an education for? Is it of worth in itself or just another edge in a competitive market place?

I don't know about archeology, but in many subjects such as history, economics, political science-basically all the social sciences-you can learn much better on your own, especially now with the internet, but even before the internet by going to the local library and reading books. Art and music of course as well, the only thing I can think of where you can't learn as well on your own is things where you actually need a labratory to work in, and it is cost prohibitive for many people to build their own laboratory.


In the UK the government has a target of 50% university educated, which is bizarre, there are no job prospects for the vast majority of graduates, I read a study not long back that found nearly two thirds of UK graduates were working in jobs which did not require any form of higher qualification, and the numbers, like me, out of work for one reason or another isn’t insubstantial either. When I went to university in 1999 the Labour government had just scrapped tuition fees and introduced student loans, we now owe the government! A master stroke on their part.

Similar happenings here. Basically creating a modern day serf class, indentured to the government or government backed banks for the 'cost of education' which is 'needed to get a decent job'




It has to also be said that college is not for everyone, either. Some people just can't hack it. We, in society, do need occupations that don't require a degree/diploma, like the food service industry. There will also always be a need for janitors and housekeepers. There will always be people in these industries.

Very true, and this I think is a major long term problem for society. People that otherwise would have gone into food service, construction, landscaping, housekeeping, home health care, farm work, food processing, manufacturing, etc go to college instead, and then when the graduate they find themselves scrabbling for low paying customer service and office jobs while weighed down by a mountain of debt. Meanwhile, all those other industries are 'unable to find anyone' and 'have to import foreign workers' to do those jobs.

[SuuT]

If so, that's just one lonely voice in the wilderness, that students talk to maybe once or twice a quarter/semester.

This is very dependent on which university we might discuss: Educators, themselves, often make a distinction between institutions that are in the business of educating - and Educators (although one would hardly be able to tell the difference in university marketing campaigns).

Generally speaking, though, I think the overall implication of what you are saying coupled with the described institutional bifurcation is accurate: Most people do attend a university that has a primary aim of making money; and thus, students are engaged by their advisor only to the extent that the advisor needs to engage so as to keep the machine in motion.

In my opinion, there should be an educational equivalent to the hippocratic oath, and the ethics of (E)ducating should be culturally infused - as it once, essentially, was.


Well if they are making "at least $1,000,000 more dollars over the course of their working life that they otherwise would have" then it's not "essentially worthless"? Or are you agreeing with journalist in the initial story that these people would have had the higher income even if they had been locked in a closet instead of going to college? Or that those who got their degrees prior to the mid-90's "can expect to make at least $1,000,000 more dollars over the course of their working life that they otherwise would have" but that it's essentially worthless for those who got their degrees after the mid-90s (this latter statement is the one closest to the truth in my opinion)

As I recall upon re-reading that post, I was thinking of many different things that certainly seem contradictory, so I might be more clear:

- First, the "essentially worthless" bit was a subjective judgement: Of course one million dollars has the worth it has - one million dollars. However, this is only accurate in itself, as these figures are always presented in today's dollars, and are made-up from statistical means garnered from data that existed up to the point of calculation. In other words, one million actual dollars (today's money) is not one million dollars in 40 years, 20 years, next year or even tomorrow. And (here is the subjective part), even if it were, I do not consider one million dollars over the course of an entire working life to be a good deal of money in a world where some are making one million dollars every 5 minutes.

- Second, Financial Planning is an artform; and very few can paint like Michelangelo: Most people will piss-away one million dollars made over the course of an entire working life as if it never existed; whereas the few are able to utilise the capitalist system with foresight, and turn that million dollars into actual dollars over the course of their working life - or better.

Fortunes have been made by people with fifty cents in their one pocket, and a superb idea in the other.

- Third, "worth" is not definitive "value": the degree to which one values not only money, but also their education, is not altered in any way, shape or form by the 'saturation' of educated individuals into the market place. However, the majority of today's students do feel entitled to something simply for having been educated... I would call this both a worthless as well as a valuless view of higher learning.

[Octothorpe]

I'm a teacher (have been for a couple of decades now), and I'd never tell a kid who dreams of college to forget it; however, I've told many of them what I believe is the truth: for most people, college is not worth it.

Oh, a two year degree from a community college is not a bad thing, but most who go to university simply don't belong there. I taught university before I taught high school, and half the students I met did not have either the intellectual firepower to truly benefit from a college education or lacked the work ethic to get the job done. At some state universities, the drop-out/failure rate of freshman approaches fifty percent!

Indeed, only the first year of my college education was memorable (it was a traditional year spent in the dorms), but the rest was haphazard as I could only attend when I could afford a semester's tuition. The off semester was spent working. Looking back, with what I have learned in the years since, I would not repeat the experiment. I would have spent my time and energy differently, and perhaps would be better off for it.

[Óttar]

How is that different from the American system? No mandatory attendence, assignments, and class participation there?
You listen to the lectures, but attendence is not mandatory. In the European system, there are no assigments only a single exam based on the readings.

[Hrimskegg]

You listen to the lectures, but attendence is not mandatory. In the European system, there are no assigments only a single exam based on the readings.

I want, I want that soooo bad.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by SwordoftheVistula
I don't know about archeology, but in many subjects such as history, economics, political science-basically all the social sciences-you can learn much better on your own, especially now with the internet, but even before the internet by going to the local library and reading books. Art and music of course as well, the only thing I can think of where you can't learn as well on your own is things where you actually need a labratory to work in, and it is cost prohibitive for many people to build their own laboratory.

Education is wasted on the young; at least that’s increasingly my opinion.

Personally I’ve probably learned more and been more committed to study in the eight years I have been out of official education that I did in the five years of non-compulsory education I had (largely because I didn’t know what else to do….so I went to university, admittedly my biggest failing has been no sense of goal, so I have pretty much ploughed what energy I have into reading and writing, whether much comes of that….shrugs).

As for archaeology, it’s a reasonably young subject in terms of structured learning, you can, probably, still learn enough just by voluntary work, but since it’s started to become more commercialised, most university companies (they are pretty much companies as well) look for qualifications, problem is there are about 4,000 professional archaeologists in the UK, and decreasing what with the economy as it is, so places are tight (I know no one who graduated with me who went into archaeology as a career).

[SuuT]

I'm a teacher (have been for a couple of decades now), and I'd never tell a kid who dreams of college to forget it; however, I've told many of them what I believe is the truth: for most people, college is not worth it.

You wouldn't have been able to teach, however, without being degreed. Moreover, one must truly be in love with, and pasionate about, teaching to do it - it's exceedingly difficult even then.

I would be amongst the first to say the the continuous and seemingly never ending bar-lowering with respect to admittance criteria has to stop , and it needs to stop yesterday. However, I do not think anyone at 17, 18 or 19 years of age has the foggiest idea whether or not college is for them: I think they should try ("they" being most of the young people here, on this forum; and those like them).

[Octothorpe]

You wouldn't have been able to teach, however, without being degreed. Moreover, one must truly be in love with, and pasionate about, teaching to do it - it's exceedingly difficult even then.


Quite true: however, I taught long before being certified to teach, or even having the correct degree. Private schools, including the very tony prep school I taught at, do not require education degrees, and for some subjects, do not even require a full university degree. What counts is competence, and the ability to transfer one's competence to a youngster.

I took a second Master's to get certified to teach public school--stealing the taxpayer's money was just too damned tempting. :p However, as soon as I can arrange it, I'm headed back to the sanity and calm of a private institution.

And, of course, as I said, if I could do it all over again, I'd not be a teacher at all (despite being, in the opinion of my peers and students, a pretty spiffy teacher). I served in the military when I was young, and if I had any brains I'd have made it a career. I still miss it . . . :(

[Majar]

It is great to go to school if your ambition is to waste several years of your life learning how to be someone's employee. :loco:

[Grumpy Cat]

It is great to go to school if your ambition is to waste several years of your life learning how to be someone's employee. :loco:

Yeah. And employers know that you're up to the ears in student loan debt and hence need that job so they will treat you like shit. Essentially, you're a slave for 15 years after you graduate.

[Brynhild]

The moment my son found part-time work at our local supermarket, he decided that any furher education at school after year 10 wasn't for him, let alone university.

That said, he is about to start a cert. III in retail for a semester, as he wants to work in gaming retail. TAFE (technical and further education) courses provide a much more relaxed atmosphere compared to school and this course is on a part-time basis as well - it suits him to the ground.

When I left school at 15, it was only the more well-to-do kids who wanted to further their education and attend uni - more likely because they could bludge. I haven't needed a degree for the work I've always been able to do and get paid for. The blue collar industry always thrived and the irony is that it's still thriving.

I would like to complete my business studies at TAFE though, because in the current industry, employers scream for admin assistants who are competent in accounts payable/receivable. Whether that certificate would be worth a pinch of shit in the long run in terms of those prospects remains to be seen.

[SuuT]

Quite true: however, I taught long before being certified to teach, or even having the correct degree.

But you were degreed.


Private schools, including the very tony prep school I taught at, do not require education degrees,

But they do require a degree... :D:p:wink


...and for some subjects, do not even require a full university degree.

...or demonstrative accomplishment towards the pursuit of a degree (i.e., a certain number of completed credit hours and core work).


What counts is competence, and the ability to transfer one's competence to a youngster.

Which is initially measured by one's specialised training, which manifests itself in a degree.:D


I think we might be talking at cross purposes.

[Poltergeist]

These days it is necessary (evil?)

[Austin]

University is worth it really for two reasons where I live although I suspect this is true pretty much everywhere.

One being if you are going into a particular field and intend to actually do the work-load required to achieve success in that field. The notion that just because your a business and or medical student entails future success is certainly not the case, those fields are hard and many who attempt them dismally fail early on.

Two is to get a run-of-the-mill liberal arts degree with the knowledge that you have sufficient family hookups business wise or whatever the case may be that you can be in the clear opportunity wise, essentially having gone to college for the degree and less for the job skills part.

Honestly I am a liberal arts degree individual but am not going to have a hard time finding a job for various socioeconomic reasons, but even then I don't 100% buy into this notion that you must have a high degree or a stringent field in order to attain what you desire. I have always been under the impression university for most is largely not what decided whether they were a success or not.

My friend got a history degree. She walked into a med-tech business and was hired on the spot. It isn't all about specific fields, one just has to know where to go so to speak, having a degree won't help someone who has no motivation and ulterior knowledge to draw from. There are tens of thousands of jobs in the U.S. if you have a four year university degree, places that would otherwise turn someone away will hire you simply because of the degree, they don't necessarily care what it is for as long as you have it, then again one must know where to go so to speak, and I would agree most have no clue, thankfully (:

[Cato]

I've got one and I'm working at Walmart, so I'd have to say not really.

[Loddfafner]

Since when is employability and future net worth the measure of the value of an diploma? Actually, a diploma alone is not worth much unless it comes with an actual education. The basic abilities to write coherently and to glean information from texts no matter how dull should come with just about any major and should be of some value to employers. The perspective one gains on life from a liberal education should have some intrinsic value even if one does not find a good job.

[Psychonaut]

Since when is employability and future net worth the measure of the value of an diploma? Actually, a diploma alone is not worth much unless it comes with an actual education. The basic abilities to write coherently and to glean information from texts no matter how dull should come with just about any major and should be of some value to employers. The perspective one gains on life from a liberal education should have some intrinsic value even if one does not find a good job.

I agree. The shift in higher education from comprehensive, classical liberal arts programs to hypercompartmentalized job training modules is quite troubling to me. Without a classically educated sector of the populace large enough to matter, what will become of appreciation of classical art, literature, music, philosophy, etc.? Will there be none left to even understand it—just legions of "qualified workers"?

[antonio]

I profoundly dislike what politicians are doing with Spanish universitary education. We used to be hard and difficult careers, specially in Science fields, soon to be substituted by a bad copy of American very debatable uses. Downgrading, overspecialization, curriculum selection, expensiveness, daily bureaucratization of was once upon a time a sucesion of brilliant performances on final exam days. And, as the cherry on the top, a renaming of titles coming some from Medieval times:

Diplomado/Ingeniero Técnico (3 years degree)
Licenciado/Ingeniero Superior (5 years)

to be substituted by a 4 years title called Graduado...yes, like the Dustin Hoffman role. Never used in Spain, but extensively in SouthAmerica. :mad:

It's clear that Spanish politicians, that bloody bastards, did not like old-fashioned Spanish university...I guess their usually pathetic performances have something to do with this dramatic changes. :coffee:

Ps. BTW English learning was almost absent from old curricula...to the incredible but nice point that I usually excel among my Computer Science peers. :D

[Bloodeagle]

After many years as a tradesman, earning large sums of money, I would have to agree that a college degree really is worth it.
College has given me a chance to open my horizons past the usually narrow and confining job site humor.
For humor is the coping mechanism employed by bored tradesmen.

My attention has shifted toward cracking the whip of management!:D

[antonio]

I dont get the point, but sounds insightful, dont ask me. Maybe i would be worth checking the meaning of "whip" to get a clue.

[Bloodeagle]

I dont get the point, but sounds insightful, dont ask me. Maybe i would be worth checking the meaning of "whip" to get a clue.
I mean that I like being the one who motivates the backsides of the men in the trenches, "The Superintendent".

[antonio]

It's great to be a charismatic leader, but usually takes a whole laboral living (and plenty of unrewarded sacrifices). I once upon a time dreamed to be one of them, but I stalled on being the buffon of the court, speaking loud the truth disguised on merry clothes...and not working too much. :cool:

Of course, in the private sector there would not be room for me. At public service they can affort some (poorly payed) luxury...at least till the whole country do not fall down. For then my salary will be accounting little more than a junkie subsidy.

[Óttar]

If you are poor and you want a Master's or Ph.D., go for it. Otherwise, focus on practical certifications.


Wouldn't it be the reverse-for the reasons Stegura described? The upper middle class and better can get the degree, but it's a bad idea for the moderate to lower income to get in debt for it?


I think what I meant with this statement was, if you're poor, don't settle for the B.A. bust your ass and get a terminal degree so you can make the big money as a professor or psychological counselor if you really, really want it. But usually, if you are working class, you're more likely to have working class values and a working class outlook on life, which means you will be more practically minded anyhow.

[SwordoftheVistula]

The basic abilities to write coherently and to glean information from texts no matter how dull should come with just about any major

You can get that without going to college. Based on discussions with people currently in undergrad, today it would actually inhibit that

[Absinthe]

I'm one of those people who end up wiping their asses with their Diploma but I wouldn't have it any other way.

The educational experience was priceless to me, and what I've learned can never be taken away from me. Even if I end up cleaning up toilets in Moldavia. :)

[RoyBatty]

A degree / qualification isn't the be-all and end-all but it doesn't hurt to have it. If you're a motivated person and have a clear idea of where you're going and what you're trying to achieve then you *may* be wasting your time at college / uni.

However, if you'd rather "play it safe", then sticking it out at college / uni is the better option.

A qualification won't guarantee you a job or good salary though. It also won't guarantee that you have a clue about the job you're doing or that you'll be able to "learn and adapt" to your role.

Still, it's probably a worthwhile experience if you have the means to realise it.

[CommonSense]

Nowadays it sure is. In public services and firms people with a university degree have more responsible jobs and higher salaries. Everyone wants a fancy diploma in their CV. It's the reason why so many here where I live finish shitty private colleges and plagiarize their theses.

[Kriptc06]

I'm currently getting a post graduation, lato sensu :) we shall see. I'm looking forward for my stricto sensu too

[safinator]

For the average person definitely yes!

[Iloko]

It looks good on a resume; but other than that true expertise can also be acquired through personal study during one's own free time at home and going to libraries IMO. :)

[itilvolga]

The employers want college diploma even from bellboys here so yeah, that’s definetely worth in Turkey otherwise you can’t be able to find a job