New DNA from Iron age Thrace

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/05/ancient-dna-from-balkans-iron-age-thrace.html



A new paper in PLoS Genetics presents new data from two Iron Age Thracian individuals and puts the Sardinian-ness of Oetzi in new context. The authors write:

The results of the analyses including additional ancient genomes provide mounting evidence that the Iceman's genetic affinity with Sardinians reflects an ancestry component that was widespread in Europe during the Neolithic. Despite their different geographic origins, both the Swedish farmer gok4 and the Thracian P192-1 closely resemble the Iceman in their relationship with Sardinians, making it unlikely that all three individuals were recent migrants from Sardinia. Furthermore, P192-1 is an Iron Age individual from well after the arrival of the first farmers in Southeastern Europe (more than 2,000 years after the Iceman and gok4), perhaps indicating genetic continuity with the early farmers in this region. The only non-HG individual not following this pattern is K8 from Bulgaria. Interestingly, this individual was excavated from an aristocratic inhumation burial containing rich grave goods, indicating a high social standing, as opposed to the other individual, who was found in a pit [15]. However, the DNA damage pattern of this individual does not appear to be typical of ancient samples (Table S4 in [15]), indicating a potentially higher level of modern DNA contamination. On the other hand, the Swedish and the Iberian hunter-gatherers show congruent patterns of relatedness to the modern populations of Northern Europe, which is consistent with the previous results using those samples.

Also of interest, given previous suggestions that the Iceman had more Neandertal ancestry than modern Europeans:

However, all D-tests involving another non-African population do not significantly deviate from zero, suggesting that the Iceman genome contains levels of archaic ancestry that are comparable to that of other non-African populations.

A model of European history is seen on the left. Some details are probably incorrect (e.g., Sardinian Neolithic probably followed the Cardial/Mediterranean route rather the one shown in C). There are no good ancient DNA from Cardial Neolithic farmers, so the fact that Sardinians are similar to the Iron Age Bulgarian, the Stuttgart LBK German, and the Swedish TRB farmers may mean that the Mediterranean/Cardial farmers were related to the ones that went into Europe following the inland route from the Balkans.

In any case, the fact that there are now data from Bulgaria is great, because it means that southern Europe is not hopeless for ancient DNA preservation and hopefully more is on its way.

Genome sequencing of the 5,300-year-old mummy of the Tyrolean Iceman, found in 1991 on a glacier near the border of Italy and Austria, has yielded new insights into his origin and relationship to modern European populations. A key finding of that study was an apparent recent common ancestry with individuals from Sardinia, based largely on the Y chromosome haplogroup and common autosomal SNP variation. Here, we compiled and analyzed genomic datasets from both modern and ancient Europeans, including genome sequence data from over 400 Sardinians and two ancient Thracians from Bulgaria, to investigate this result in greater detail and determine its implications for the genetic structure of Neolithic Europe. Using whole-genome sequencing data, we confirm that the Iceman is, indeed, most closely related to Sardinians. Furthermore, we show that this relationship extends to other individuals from cultural contexts associated with the spread of agriculture during the Neolithic transition, in contrast to individuals from a hunter-gatherer context. We hypothesize that this genetic affinity of ancient samples from different parts of Europe with Sardinians represents a common genetic component that was geographically widespread across Europe during the Neolithic, likely related to migrations and population expansions associated with the spread of agriculture.

[Xanthias]

Swedes related to spaniards and Sardinians :laugh:

[cally]

Interesting. So they were a Mediterranean group? I'm sure they had more East Med components than modern Sardinians?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Interesting. So they were a Mediterranean group? I'm sure they had more East Med components than modern Sardinians?

Basically they call this component mediterranean that seems preserved most in sardinia today. Seems like it was a widespread farmer component all around europe.

They show farming coming by land from middle east but we know that didn't happen. It may not have even come from middle east. Sardinians and basque are both high in the component, and in r1b y-dna.

[Alessio]

Interesting

[Kastrioti1443]

So ,what could Have been Thracians physically in terms of phenotypes?

[Insuperable]

Interesting. So they were a Mediterranean group? I'm sure they had more East Med components than modern Sardinians?

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?125013-Finally-it-is-officially-settled&p=2625878#post2625878

[Prisoner Of Ice]

So ,what could Have been Thracians physically in terms of phenotypes?

If he's similar to Oetzi, then sort of a short guy with dark eyes and light skin (but probably not NW european in lightness).

[cally]

Basically they call this component mediterranean that seems preserved most in sardinia today. Seems like it was a widespread farmer component all around europe.

They show farming coming by land from middle east but we know that didn't happen. It may not have even come from middle east. Sardinians and basque are both high in the component, and in r1b y-dna.

Thats cool! I seem to score the highest amount of this component than anyone on the forum when I'm running gedmatch calculators. Also on ftdna I have the highest North Mediterranean score.
So ancient Balkan people had more Mediterranean and less west Asian and East European genetic components than they do now?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Thats cool! I seem to score the highest amount of this component than everyone on the forum when I'm running gedmatch calculators. Also on ftdna I have the highest North Mediterranean score.
So ancient Balkan people had more Mediterranean and less west Asian and East European genetic components than they do now?

Well, that's based on one guy, but it seems europe as a whole had a higher mediterranean component at the time.

There's a suggestion that the farmers spread this component, and then later hunter gatherers assimilated into the farmers or in some cases wiped them out. Especially at a certain time when the farming weather was not good.

But there could be some contamination, for all we know.

[Insuperable]

Basically they call this component mediterranean that seems preserved most in sardinia today. Seems like it was a widespread farmer component all around europe.

They show farming coming by land from middle east but we know that didn't happen. It may not have even come from middle east. Sardinians and basque are both high in the component, and in r1b y-dna.

There is not much R1b in Sardinia compared to other parts ofg Europe. Haplogroups associated with farming are E and G. The reason why Sardinians and Basques don't have them much in abundance is subject to effects like founder effect.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

[Kastrioti1443]

So Thracians looked like gypsies?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

There is not much R1b in Sardinia compared to other parts ofg Europe. Haplogroups associated with farming are E and G. The reason why Sardinians and Basques don't have them much in abundance is subject to effects like founder effect.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

Not the eupedia loon again. Well, there's not much evidence for E as farmer haplogroup and lots against it.

There's no G whatsoever in basque territory either and they are high in this component so this is out. G is later farmers, the most ancient neolithic sames are all I2a.

[d3cimat3d]

I guess that means ancient Thracians, Illyrians and Dacians looked like 2med4u.
Interestingly Albanians have unusually high Atlantic-Mediterranean component:
http://i57.tinypic.com/29d8dv6.jpg

The problem is Sardinians are complete opposite of non-Tosk Albanians when it comes to stature:


Sardinians are shorter than people in the rest of Europe and tend to live longer. Within Sardinia, there is a group of 14 municipalities that exhibit higher longevity compared to the rest of the island. In addition, as height declines among these municipalities, longevity increases with the shortest municipaliity, Villagrande Strisaili, having the greatest longevity.

http://www.shortsupport.org/Research/Papers/Sardinia.html

But I guess stature is sexually selected so it can change over a few generations.

[Insuperable]

Not the eupedia loon again. Well, there's not much evidence for E as farmer haplogroup and lots against it.

There's no G whatsoever in basque territory either and they are high in this component so this is out. G is later farmers, the most ancient neolithic sames are all I2a.

Oetzi was G for example and an example of eartly neolithic farmers. Evidence? Whatever evidence someone shows to you, you will always go against it. Since that is what you are.:)

Maybe I lack some info and don't know that ancient neolithic farmers were all I2a. Can you please provide some info?:)

However I2a samples afaik belonged to mesolithic Europeans so don't be a dumbass and show me those samples.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Oetzi was G for example and an example of eartly neolithic farmers. Evidence? Whatever evidence someone shows to you, you will always go against it. Since that is what you are.:)

Maybe I lack some info and don't know that ancient neolithic samples were all I2a. Can you please provide some info?:)

However I2a samples afaik belonged to mesolithic Europeans so don't be a dumbass and show me those samples.

Not G, E. There's just 1-2 E1b samples and they are not very early in time.

All megalithic sites have I2a, those are the earliest farming sites.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/ancient-y-chromosome-studies.html

This has basically all y-dna studies.

[Insuperable]

Not G, E. There's just 1-2 E1b samples and they are not very early in time.

All megalithic sites have I2a, those are the earliest farming sites.

Okay. Show me some links which show that farmers belonged to I2a?

[Sikeliot]

This is likely true for ancient Greeks too, who probably had more of a Sardinian (i.e. "Med") like composition with less East Euro and less Near Eastern than today.

[Insuperable]

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/ancient-y-chromosome-studies.html

This has basically all y-dna studies.

So are you blind or what?

[Kastrioti1443]

I guess that means ancient Thracians, Illyrians and Dacians looked like 2med4u.
Interestingly Albanians have unusually high Atlantic-Mediterranean component:
http://i57.tinypic.com/29d8dv6.jpg

The problem is Sardinians are complete opposite of non-Tosk Albanians when it comes to stature:



http://www.shortsupport.org/Research/Papers/Sardinia.html

But I guess stature is sexually selected so it can change over a few generations.

Don't think so. Btw the sexual selection can influence, but still can not change the average height of a nation drastically.

[HellLander87]

Don't think so. Btw the sexual selection can influence, but still can not change the average height of a nation drastically.
Living on milk for 3000 years can.

[d3cimat3d]

Don't think so. Btw the sexual selection can influence, but still can not change the average height of a nation drastically.

Why not? Tall males get most of the sex, short males get left out, repeat x50 generations = taller people. How else do you explain Gheg vs. Tosk differences in stature even though they are brothers genetically?

[HellLander87]

Why not? Tall males get most of the sex, short males get left out, repeat x50 generations = taller people. How else do you explain Gheg vs. Tosk differences in stature even though they are brothers genetically?
Tosks are probably ,mixed with vlachs, greeks ashkalis etc.In reality they are like two different nations.;)

[Kastrioti1443]

Why not? Tall males get most of the sex, short males get left out, repeat x50 generations = taller people. How else do you explain Gheg vs. Tosk differences in stature even though they are brothers genetically?

I was talking more about the appearance of 2med4u... Maybe now in modern europe, but the marriages between albos were done by rules, not by meeting whores in the clubs, ghegs used to live in tribes less than 70 years ago, so this natural selection is baseless about albanians at least.

Tosks differ in genetics, a lot of them have strong vlachic or aromanian influence, the more vlach influence they have, shorter they become.

[d3cimat3d]

Tosks differ in genetics, a lot of them have strong vlachic or aromanian influence, the more vlach influence they have, shorter they become.

So you're saying Gheg women had no free choice on which mate they could pick? Arranged marriages?

[Kastrioti1443]

So you're saying Gheg women had no free choice on which mate they could pick? Arranged marriages?

Marriages were arranged, yes. The approval of the father was needed, and then the approval of brothers. Till 1940s, there were no unmarred women after the age 21, especially among ghegs. This was even stronger among catholics and still is.

[Skerdilaid]

Why not? Tall males get most of the sex, short males get left out, repeat x50 generations = taller people. How else do you explain Gheg vs. Tosk differences in stature even though they are brothers genetically?
That is not how our society functioned though. Some of the toughest bastards in our history were actually short in stature, and when it came breeding, Clan leaders and the elderly on the family arranged such matters.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

So are you blind or what?

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/12/europeans-neolithic-farmers-mesolithic.html

http://thesesups.ups-tlse.fr/1392/

Are you mentally retarded? Here are the I2a. I already said there's plenty of G, but it's at later sites, iron age. Farming started at least 9k years ago.

There's only some e1b in some places where it's a big minority.

I2a is a minority on other sites I did not link to either, but since it's minority there I don't put much stock in it.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I can't seem to find any mention of y-dna :(

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Something related:



It's also interesting to note that two of the Iron Age Bulgarians are reported as belonging to mtDNA haplogroups U3b and HV, respectively. Both of these haplogroups are generally accepted to be of Near Eastern origin. They're rare in Europe today (usually <2%), but relatively more common in Bulgaria than most other European countries. This suggests some genetic continuity in Bulgaria from at least the Iron Age to the present. Indeed, U3 has been reported from early Neolithic samples from Germany and Ukraine, which means that the ancient Bulgarian U3 lineage need not have arrived in Europe from the Near East during the metal ages.

[Insuperable]

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/12/europeans-neolithic-farmers-mesolithic.html

http://thesesups.ups-tlse.fr/1392/

Are you mentally retarded? Here are the I2a. I already said there's plenty of G, but it's at later sites, iron age. Farming started at least 9k years ago.

There's only some e1b in some places where it's a big minority.

I2a is a minority on other sites I did not link to either, but since it's minority there I don't put much stock in it.


You claim:

the most ancient neolithic sames are all I2a.

So yes, I very much understood that you are trying to say how the earliest neolithic sites were all I2a, while in later neolithic sites we can see a lot of G2a with residual I2a here and there.

In order to prove that you tell us how there's plenty of G, but how it's at later site, IRON FREAKING AGE and than you provide the following link:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/ancient-y-chromosome-studies.html

From that link you copy the following link:
http://thesesups.ups-tlse.fr/1392/
Neolithic Megalithic France from la Pierre Fritte [2 I2a1]

Now here is where you are wrong:

1. There is only data from that 1 neolithic site [2 I2a2], not many as you claim. If I am wrong please provide info!
2. La Pierre Fritte Neolithic Megalithic France site dates from 5000 years ago (regarding the link you provided)
3. G2a and EV-13 from Neolithic Spain dates to 7000 years ago
4. Oetzi a 5300 year old farmer from South Tyrol who was genetically the closest thing to early neolithic farmer belonged to G2a
5. From neolithic Treilles site dating also something like 5000 years out of 22 samples, 20 belonged to G2a and 2 belonged to I2a indicating either a mixing between HG and invading EEF or it was a part of EEF who were partially HG themselves.
6. The single neolithic sample from a 7500 year-old Linearbandkeramik (LBK) site in Stuttgart, Germany, belonged to mtDNA haplogroup T2 (no Y-dna since it was a female) whose mtdna is in correlation with other neolithic G2a farmers and was a relative of Oetzi
7. Neolithic farmer from Sweden (found 100km from a Megalithic site) dating also something like 5000 years was autosomally similar to Oetzi, but a bit more northern than him was also a relative of Otzi and other neolithic farmers from a Treilles site
8. In any case that is way before the Iron Age in Europe which started ~3000 years ago.

So who is retarded?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

You claim:


So yes, I very much understood that you are trying to say how the earliest neolithic sites were all I2a, while in later neolithic sites we can see a lot of G2a with residual I2a here and there.

In order to prove that you tell us how there's plenty of G, but how it's at later site, IRON FREAKING AGE and than you provide the following link:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/ancient-y-chromosome-studies.html

From that link you copy the following link:
http://thesesups.ups-tlse.fr/1392/
Neolithic Megalithic France from la Pierre Fritte [2 I2a1]

Now here is where you are wrong:

1. There is only data from that 1 neolithic site [2 I2a2], not many as you claim. If I am wrong please provide info!
2. La Pierre Fritte Neolithic Megalithic France site dates from 5000 years ago (regarding the link you provided)
3. G2a and EV-13 from Neolithic Spain dates to 7000 years ago
4. Oetzi a 5300 year old farmer from South Tyrol who was genetically the closest thing to early neolithic farmer belonged to G2a
5. From neolithic Treilles site dating also something like 5000 years out of 22 samples, 20 belonged to G2a and 2 belonged to I2a indicating either a mixing between HG and invading EEF or it was a part of EEF who were partially HG themselves.
6. The single neolithic sample from a 7500 year-old Linearbandkeramik (LBK) site in Stuttgart, Germany, belonged to mtDNA haplogroup T2 (no Y-dna since it was a female) whose mtdna is in correlation with other neolithic G2a farmers and was a relative of Oetzi
7. Neolithic farmer from Sweden (found 100km from a Megalithic site) dating also something like 5000 years was autosomally similar to Oetzi, but a bit more northern than him was also a relative of Otzi and other neolithic farmers from a Treilles site
8. In any case that is way before the Iron Age in Europe which started ~3000 years ago.

So who is retarded?

First off there's 4 different links there that have I2a. There's also two more that have I2a which are too recent to be on the list. There's also both HG and farmers found with I2a, which I would expect if they actually invented farming.

Second we have something called ARCHAEOLOGY. So we know for example megalithic sites are a lot older, and seem to have continuous archaeological inhabitance and uniformity of remains. Meaning these are the same people as those who founded them, and so it does not matter that some of the dates are newer on the actual remains. The culture is older, end of story.

Third you go on ranting about G. WHY? I already said it's a neolithic farming clade, which is obvious.

Now we go to the E1B crap. Here is where it's ridiculous to call it a neolithic farming clade.

Why?

1. There's no site where it's the majority, we just have ONE with a bunch of G.
2. We also have C and N found in farming settlements as well and traces in modern day western europe (unlike e1b). So how is E1B a farmer clade if these are not? Being found at a farming site in small numbers doesn't mean there was ever a civilization where it was the major part.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/12/europeans-neolithic-farmers-mesolithic.html

Here's a bunch of I, including both farmers and HG, 8k+ years ago.

It's funny to me that if we see I in HG then later in farmers in more or less same area this is supposed to mean something other than that they learned or discovered farming.

Whoops I guess G is bronze age though, but the point still stands it obviously comes later.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Also, if I1 is supposed to be germanic, and germanics came from east and not north (as they claim themselves) why are we finding the germanic I1 clade this far back? Swarty monsters just make up whatever bullshit that suits their immediate agenda, doesn't have to make any sense or even have internal cohesion, no matter how much it conflicts itself it doesn't matter.

[Insuperable]

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/12/europeans-neolithic-farmers-mesolithic.html

Here's a bunch of I, including both farmers and HG, 8k+ years ago.

So, where do you see this I in farmers there?


First off there's 4 different links there that have I2a. There's also two more that have I2a which are too recent to be on the list. There's also both HG and farmers found with I2a, which I would expect if they actually invented farming.

And where exactly do you see this 4 links regarding neolithic farmers if you are having in mind that dodecad link?


Third you go on ranting about G. WHY? I already said it's a neolithic farming clade, which is obvious.

I have already written why.


Now we go to the E1B crap. Here is where it's ridiculous to call it a neolithic farming clade.

All authors attribute it to neolithic farmers since probably indirectly evidence points to it. Who knows what we can find tomorrow so don't hold yourself on one sample. I'd rather see what scientists have to say rather than what you have to say, no offence.


2. We also have C and N found in farming settlements as well and traces in modern day western europe (unlike e1b). So how is E1B a farmer clade if these are not? Being found at a farming site in small numbers doesn't mean there was ever a civilization where it was the major part.

Link regarding bolded part please? I am interested.

[Jackson]

Also, if I1 is supposed to be germanic, and germanics came from east and not north (as they claim themselves) why are we finding the germanic I1 clade this far back? Swarty monsters just make up whatever bullshit that suits their immediate agenda, doesn't have to make any sense or even have internal cohesion, no matter how much it conflicts itself it doesn't matter.

As far as i know I1 hasn't been found in any ancient remains from that period yet though?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

As far as i know I1 hasn't been found in any ancient remains from that period yet though?

I just linked to the study!

[Prisoner Of Ice]

So, where do you see this I in farmers there?



And where exactly do you see this 4 links regarding neolithic farmers if you are having in mind that dodecad link?



I have already written why.



All authors attribute it to neolithic farmers since probably indirectly evidence points to it. Who knows what we can find tomorrow so don't hold yourself on one sample. I'd rather see what scientists have to say rather than what you have to say, no offence.



Link regarding bolded part please? I am interested.

Go read all the studies, if you don't do that you don't know what you are talking about.

[Jackson]

I just linked to the study!

Link it again? There was nothing about I1 in the one you linked i don't think. (this one http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552 ?)

[ChocolateFace]

I guess that means ancient Thracians, Illyrians and Dacians looked like 2med4u.
Interestingly Albanians have unusually high Atlantic-Mediterranean component:
http://i57.tinypic.com/29d8dv6.jpg

The problem is Sardinians are complete opposite of non-Tosk Albanians when it comes to stature:



http://www.shortsupport.org/Research/Papers/Sardinia.html

But I guess stature is sexually selected so it can change over a few generations.

Interesting, I guess this is why there is a surprisingly high % of western looking Albos.


Why not? Tall males get most of the sex, short males get left out, repeat x50 generations = taller people. How else do you explain Gheg vs. Tosk differences in stature even though they are brothers genetically?

Yep this is totally correct.

[Insuperable]

I guess that means ancient Thracians, Illyrians and Dacians looked like 2med4u.

Quite possibly, but Dienekes says:

The Thracian only has ~1,000 SNPs in common with the HGDP, and the HGDP doesn't have any Bulgarians or other Balkan populations, so there is pretty much no evidence about relationships with modern Balkan populations and very little about relationships to other Europeans.

[safinator]

Apparently someone on eupedia posted the results of 4 Thracian samples, i will copy and paste them here.

1)P192-1 (Mtdna U3b) (Y-DNA H1b1)

P192-1
globe4

90.47% European
9.53% African
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% Asian

globe10

85.37% Atlantic_Baltic
10.34% Palaeo_African
4.29% West_Asian
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% Australasian
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Neo_African
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southern

globe13

45.10% Mediterranean
42.11% North_European
9.71% Palaeo_African
3.08% West_Asian
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% Arctic
0.00% Australasian
0.00% East_African
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southwest_Asian
0.00% West_African

K7b

75.63% Atlantic_Baltic
16.32% Southern
4.11% African
3.94% West_Asian
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian

K10a

48.93% Atlantic_Baltic
44.15% Mediterranean
6.91% Palaeoafrican
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Red_Sea
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian
0.00% Sub_Saharan
0.00% West_Asian

K12b

45.82% Caucasus
26.87% Atlantic_Med
21.68% North_European
2.36% Sub_Saharan
2.01% Northwest_African
1.26% Siberian
0.00% East_African
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Gedrosia
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian
0.00% Southwest_Asian

dv3

42.86% Mediterranean
19.81% West_European
19.50% West_Asian
9.70% East_European
7.77% Northeast_Asian
0.36% Northwest_African
0.00% East_African
0.00% Neo_African
0.00% Palaeo_African
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian
0.00% Southwest_Asian

MDLP World-22

32.35% Austronesian
27.04% Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic
17.80% North-East-European
15.94% Indo-Iranian
6.88% Samoedic
0.00% Arctic-Amerind
0.00% East-Siberean
0.00% East-South-Asian
0.00% Indian
0.00% Indo-Tibetan
0.00% Melanesian
0.00% Mesoamerican
0.00% Near_East
0.00% North-Amerind
0.00% North-European-Mesolithic
0.00% North-Siberean
0.00% Paleo-Siberian
0.00% Pygmy
0.00% South-African
0.00% South-America_Amerind
0.00% Sub-Saharian
0.00% West-Asian

Old World 26

15.97% Sardinian
14.70% Finnish
10.85% Palestinian
9.94% Dai
7.98% Yakut
7.27% Gujarati
7.14% Naxi
6.57% Yoruba
6.39% Kenya-Bantu
5.06% Mbuti-Pygmy
2.96% Archaic
1.90% Biaka-Pygmy
1.62% Kalash
0.95% She
0.50% Melanesian
0.16% Japanese
0.00% Basque
0.00% Bedouin
0.00% Brahui
0.00% Burusho
0.00% Druze
0.00% Lahu
0.00% Mandenka
0.00% Mozabite
0.00% Papuan
0.00% San

[safinator]

2) T2G2 (MtDNA HV)

T2G2
globe4

76.67% European
23.32% African
0.01% Amerindian
0.00% Asian

globe10

53.38% West_Asian
20.22% Atlantic_Baltic
17.12% Palaeo_African
9.28% Australasian
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Neo_African
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southern

globe13

51.47% West_Asian
15.94% North_European
11.78% Palaeo_African
8.80% East_African
7.12% Australasian
4.89% Arctic
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Mediterranean
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southwest_Asian
0.00% West_African

K7b

60.48% West_Asian
23.69% African
14.49% South_Asian
1.33% Atlantic_Baltic
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Siberian
0.00% Southern

K10a

35.95% West_Asian
15.13% Atlantic_Baltic
15.01% Palaeoafrican
14.33% South_Asian
13.64% Mediterranean
3.14% East_Asian
2.81% Sub_Saharan
0.00% Red_Sea
0.00% Siberian
0.00% Southeast_Asian

K12b

54.44% Gedrosia
19.46% Sub_Saharan
13.43% Atlantic_Med
11.30% South_Asian
1.34% Caucasus
0.03% East_Asian
0.00% East_African
0.00% North_European
0.00% Northwest_African
0.00% Siberian
0.00% Southeast_Asian
0.00% Southwest_Asian

dv3

51.27% West_Asian
33.26% West_European
7.63% Neo_African
6.95% Southeast_Asian
0.89% Palaeo_African
0.01% South_Asian
0.00% East_African
0.00% East_European
0.00% Mediterranean
0.00% Northeast_Asian
0.00% Northwest_African
0.00% Southwest_Asian

MDLP World-22

Insufficient SNPs

Old World 26

18.90% Finnish
14.14% Kenya-Bantu
12.32% Yoruba
10.35% Gujarati
8.43% Yakut
7.03% Palestinian
6.90% Archaic
6.71% Mbuti-Pygmy
6.70% Dai
4.18% Naxi
2.72% Biaka-Pygmy
1.21% Kalash
0.18% Bedouin
0.17% San
0.04% She
0.00% Basque
0.00% Brahui
0.00% Burusho
0.00% Druze
0.00% Japanese
0.00% Lahu
0.00% Mandenka
0.00% Melanesian
0.00% Mozabite
0.00% Papuan
0.00% Sardinian

[safinator]

3) V2 (MtDNA H2e)

V2
globe4

58.89% European
20.61% Asian
11.91% African
8.59% Amerindian

globe10

43.70% Atlantic_Baltic
24.26% West_Asian
12.27% East_Asian
11.29% Neo_African
8.47% Australasian
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% Palaeo_African
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southern

globe13

39.58% North_European
27.22% West_Asian
12.61% West_African
12.60% East_Asian
7.56% Australasian
0.42% Arctic
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% East_African
0.00% Mediterranean
0.00% Palaeo_African
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southwest_Asian

K7b

44.14% West_Asian
28.34% Atlantic_Baltic
18.46% African
5.72% East_Asian
3.34% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southern

K10a

60.73% Atlantic_Baltic
16.10% Sub_Saharan
10.95% West_Asian
6.53% East_Asian
5.68% Southeast_Asian
0.01% Siberian
0.00% Mediterranean
0.00% Palaeoafrican
0.00% Red_Sea
0.00% South_Asian

K12b

44.15% North_European
20.14% Sub_Saharan
15.06% Gedrosia
9.62% Siberian
7.67% Caucasus
3.35% Southeast_Asian
0.01% East_Asian
0.00% Atlantic_Med
0.00% East_African
0.00% Northwest_African
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southwest_Asian

dv3

42.02% West_Asian
37.17% West_European
11.74% Neo_African
5.15% Southeast_Asian
3.93% East_European
0.00% East_African
0.00% Mediterranean
0.00% Northeast_Asian
0.00% Northwest_African
0.00% Palaeo_African
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southwest_Asian

MDLP World-22

46.09% North-East-European
22.90% Sub-Saharian
16.90% West-Asian
8.74% Mesoamerican
5.37% South-America_Amerind
0.00% Arctic-Amerind
0.00% Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic
0.00% Austronesian
0.00% East-Siberean
0.00% East-South-Asian
0.00% Indian
0.00% Indo-Iranian
0.00% Indo-Tibetan
0.00% Melanesian
0.00% Near_East
0.00% North-Amerind
0.00% North-European-Mesolithic
0.00% North-Siberean
0.00% Paleo-Siberian
0.00% Pygmy
0.00% Samoedic
0.00% South-African

Old World 26

23.45% Sardinian
19.42% Finnish
17.05% Gujarati
8.80% Yoruba
6.84% Basque
6.75% Yakut
6.35% She
5.73% Kenya-Bantu
3.36% Archaic
1.13% San
0.75% Melanesian
0.37% Bedouin
0.00% Biaka-Pygmy
0.00% Brahui
0.00% Burusho
0.00% Dai
0.00% Druze
0.00% Japanese
0.00% Kalash
0.00% Lahu
0.00% Mandenka
0.00% Mbuti-Pygmy
0.00% Mozabite
0.00% Naxi
0.00% Palestinian
0.00% Papuan

[safinator]

4) K8 (MtDNA U)

K8
globe4

97.86% European
1.65% Amerindian
0.49% African
0.00% Asian

globe10

46.81% West_Asian
36.90% Atlantic_Baltic
13.62% Southern
2.68% Palaeo_African
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% Australasian
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Neo_African
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian

globe13

39.15% West_Asian
36.95% Mediterranean
20.05% North_European
2.99% Palaeo_African
0.85% Southwest_Asian
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% Arctic
0.00% Australasian
0.00% East_African
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% West_African

K7b

46.44% Atlantic_Baltic
36.25% West_Asian
17.30% Southern
0.00% African
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian

K10a

47.35% Atlantic_Baltic
32.21% West_Asian
18.41% Mediterranean
2.02% Palaeoafrican
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Red_Sea
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian
0.00% Sub_Saharan

K12b

32.79% Atlantic_Med
29.27% Gedrosia
17.54% North_European
17.50% Caucasus
2.90% Northwest_African
0.00% East_African
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian
0.00% Southwest_Asian
0.00% Sub_Saharan

dv3

39.88% West_European
24.25% East_European
14.34% West_Asian
12.79% Mediterranean
5.86% South_Asian
2.87% Palaeo_African
0.01% Northwest_African
0.00% East_African
0.00% Neo_African
0.00% Northeast_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian
0.00% Southwest_Asian

MDLP World-22

75.04% Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic
9.27% Melanesian
9.00% West-Asian
6.68% South-African
0.02% North-East-European
0.00% Arctic-Amerind
0.00% Austronesian
0.00% East-Siberean
0.00% East-South-Asian
0.00% Indian
0.00% Indo-Iranian
0.00% Indo-Tibetan
0.00% Mesoamerican
0.00% Near_East
0.00% North-Amerind
0.00% North-European-Mesolithic
0.00% North-Siberean
0.00% Paleo-Siberian
0.00% Pygmy
0.00% Samoedic
0.00% South-America_Amerind
0.00% Sub-Saharian

Old World 26

35.08% Finnish
20.05% Yakut
17.38% Basque
10.37% Bedouin
6.09% Gujarati
4.40% Yoruba
3.70% Archaic
2.44% Mbuti-Pygmy
0.47% Naxi
0.01% Kalash
0.00% Biaka-Pygmy
0.00% Brahui
0.00% Burusho
0.00% Dai
0.00% Druze
0.00% Japanese
0.00% Kenya-Bantu
0.00% Lahu
0.00% Mandenka
0.00% Melanesian
0.00% Mozabite
0.00% Palestinian
0.00% Papuan
0.00% San
0.00% Sardinian
0.00% She

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Very weird results.

[Graham]

Do you know what modern population that is closest too? Will have to look it up.

[Guapo]

Do you know what modern population that is closest too? Will have to look it up.

Spaniards

[Faklon]

V2
globe4

58.89% European
20.61% Asian
11.91% African
8.59% Amerindian


Thracians were Mexicans.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dstluwm1Cjs

[Styrian Mujo]

So from what I understand they were more Mediterranean and North Euro and had less Near Eastern genetic influx than modern Balkan populations. Correct me if I'm wrong I only glanced the text.

[Graham]

Spaniards

Nice, I'll still give K12b a look and see who matches closest in numbers by deduction. Have the numbers now.

[Guapo]

So from what I understand they were more Mediterranean and North Euro and had less Near Eastern genetic influx than modern Balkan populations. Correct me if I'm wrong I only glanced the text.

At least the female lineage i suppose, haplogroup H and its subclades, it seems-similar to Basques or just early Cromagnons. Rest are still near easts like the J's etc

[Black Wolf]

Apparently someone on eupedia posted the results of 4 Thracian samples, i will copy and paste them here.

1)P192-1 (Mtdna U3b) (Y-DNA H1b1)

P192-1
globe4

90.47% European
9.53% African
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% Asian

globe10

85.37% Atlantic_Baltic
10.34% Palaeo_African
4.29% West_Asian
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% Australasian
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Neo_African
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southern

globe13

45.10% Mediterranean
42.11% North_European
9.71% Palaeo_African
3.08% West_Asian
0.00% Amerindian
0.00% Arctic
0.00% Australasian
0.00% East_African
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southwest_Asian
0.00% West_African

K7b

75.63% Atlantic_Baltic
16.32% Southern
4.11% African
3.94% West_Asian
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian

K10a

48.93% Atlantic_Baltic
44.15% Mediterranean
6.91% Palaeoafrican
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Red_Sea
0.00% Siberian
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian
0.00% Sub_Saharan
0.00% West_Asian

K12b

45.82% Caucasus
26.87% Atlantic_Med
21.68% North_European
2.36% Sub_Saharan
2.01% Northwest_African
1.26% Siberian
0.00% East_African
0.00% East_Asian
0.00% Gedrosia
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian
0.00% Southwest_Asian

dv3

42.86% Mediterranean
19.81% West_European
19.50% West_Asian
9.70% East_European
7.77% Northeast_Asian
0.36% Northwest_African
0.00% East_African
0.00% Neo_African
0.00% Palaeo_African
0.00% South_Asian
0.00% Southeast_Asian
0.00% Southwest_Asian

MDLP World-22

32.35% Austronesian
27.04% Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic
17.80% North-East-European
15.94% Indo-Iranian
6.88% Samoedic
0.00% Arctic-Amerind
0.00% East-Siberean
0.00% East-South-Asian
0.00% Indian
0.00% Indo-Tibetan
0.00% Melanesian
0.00% Mesoamerican
0.00% Near_East
0.00% North-Amerind
0.00% North-European-Mesolithic
0.00% North-Siberean
0.00% Paleo-Siberian
0.00% Pygmy
0.00% South-African
0.00% South-America_Amerind
0.00% Sub-Saharian
0.00% West-Asian

Old World 26

15.97% Sardinian
14.70% Finnish
10.85% Palestinian
9.94% Dai
7.98% Yakut
7.27% Gujarati
7.14% Naxi
6.57% Yoruba
6.39% Kenya-Bantu
5.06% Mbuti-Pygmy
2.96% Archaic
1.90% Biaka-Pygmy
1.62% Kalash
0.95% She
0.50% Melanesian
0.16% Japanese
0.00% Basque
0.00% Bedouin
0.00% Brahui
0.00% Burusho
0.00% Druze
0.00% Lahu
0.00% Mandenka
0.00% Mozabite
0.00% Papuan
0.00% San

Y-DNA H1b1? Really?

[safinator]

Y-DNA H1b1? Really?

Yeah, very very strange since that is thought to be the marker of the Gipsys, maybe somo proto central asian stuff among among IE?

Who knows.

[Guapo]

Yeah, very very starnge since that is thought to be the marker of the Gipsys, maybe somo proto central asian stuff among among IE?

Who knows.

It's east european, H1b1 is even common in finland. Makes sense for the Thracian mt-dna. H1b = east europe. H1a = west europe. H = most common mt-dna in europe. My H11a1 is commonly found in Central Europe, notably Celtic in origin.


H1b is one of the most common branches of H1, averaging about 4% among Europeans today. It originated about 13,000 years ago, just as the Ice Age had was ending and temperate forests were expanding throughout central Europe. While H1b probably arose in southern France or Iberia, it is most frequent among eastern Europeans. Women carrying H1b journeyed eastward from France, passed north of the Italian Alps and entered present-day Slovakia. From there, H1b spread north throughout the region surrounding the Baltic Sea and the Volga-Ural area of Russia. Women carrying H1b also moved into southeastern Europe via Ukraine, the Balkans and the Caucasus Mountains.

[safinator]

It's east european, H1b1 is even common in finland. Makes sense for the Thracian mt-dna. H1b = east europe. H1a = west europe.

It's H1b Y-DNA line not the MtDna which is far more common in Europe.

[Guapo]

It's H1b Y-DNA line not the MtDna which is far more common in Europe.

fuck i gotta stop smoking pot, this is the second time i did this

[cally]

Ok these results don't even make sense...south asian?? african ?? east asian?? really?

[Guapo]

Ok this H1b y-dna seems to be southasian but probably came with neolithix farmers 8000 years ago

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Ok these results don't even make sense...south asian?? african ?? east asian?? really?

You can't think of them in terms of modern populations. It's not like they mixed with some asians and some africans, it's probably some common ancestry between these groups. As more groups like this are found we might have a better idea what the ancient groups that make up people today are.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Also, there's been a lot of selective sweeps of european genes since then. A lot of the "african" and "asian" genes may simply be genes everyone originally had, which now only remain in africa.

[cally]

Ok this H1b y-dna seems to be southasian but probably came with neolithix farmers 8000 years ago

mtDNA u3 in this sample is also found in Roma...maybe they are thracian?:cool:

From FTDNA:


mtDNA haplogroup U3 is present throughout Europe and Western Asia but is found at the highest frequencies in countries surrounding the Black Sea, especially in Bulgaria and the Caucusas. U3 is very rare in Western Europe (probably less than 0.5%) but is found at increasingly high levels to the east, especially in the Danube River basin and along the southeastern Mediterranean Sea. U3 is also found at very high frequencies among some Roma populations and in some parts of the Near East (e.g. Jordan and Syria). U3 appears to be a fairly ancient haplogroup (probably at least 35,000 to 45,000 years old)

[Kale]

You can't think of them in terms of modern populations. It's not like they mixed with some asians and some africans, it's probably some common ancestry between these groups. As more groups like this are found we might have a better idea what the ancient groups that make up people today are.

I get what you're saying here...it's an important message for people to consider about ancient samples. But IRON AGE? We have older specimens which don't display any of this weird shit. What I'm guessing is they got a very low amount of SNPs. In fact, in one example the guy posted, it says for globe-22 "not enough SNPs". That is much more known to make weird shit pop up on calculators. So before we start trying to figure out if there's any method to the madness here, is there an SNP count available on those specimens?

[Hevo]

Looks like U3 is also fairly common in Southern Belarus/North Ukraine.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U3-map.png

[BasicallyNone]

results are really weird ... Amerindien ?

[Insuperable]

I am confused for several reasons. I thought there were two samples instead of four. One sample was apparently Sardinian like and from the other one they were unable to extract much material because of contaminated and damaged dna there of and I am guessing it is the one where it says 'not enough SNP's'. It seems there is not enough genetic material from all four of them.

[Stats_Spreadsheets]

So from what I understand they were more Mediterranean and North Euro and had less Near Eastern genetic influx than modern Balkan populations. Correct me if I'm wrong I only glanced the text.

The 192 sample has quite a bit south west asian but the K8 one does not. It has a lot more west asian and mediteranean instead. So near eastern levels should have been similar more or less.

192 scores more closely to mediterannean on dv3 and K8 is 40% west euro, 25% east euro and 15% med. Could be due to contamination. In globe13 and K12 they look very similar to what a modern balkan mix would look genetically but that could also be due to the contamination that was reported.

The huge rise in Gedrosia is very weird. It is around 5% in south europe and 8% in north europe nowadays and can only be found in high levels like the ancient thracian samples in west asia and iran. But there seems to be continuity in y and mt dna in bulgaria and if the thracians were made up of north european shifted hunter gatherer types, neolithic farmers and west asian and pontic steppe shifted indoeuropean invaders then that could explain something like this. But the samples are also very few and some behave very weirdly in the calculators probably because of not enough testable material.