Do Greeks have "Turkish" blood?

[wvwvw]

Don't dare to quote me, subhuman.

Give the guy a break, he is ashamed of being Turk, he just wanna feel what is like to belong to the civilized world

[Casandrinos]

I know this ain't the proper thread but can you guys give a quick classification for these turks?

http://s7.postimg.org/6qp36rqmj/image.jpg

Stop cherrypicking white turks

These guys are proud of being mongrels.

Avarage turk look like this

http://www.parks.it/parco.nebrodi/foto/Suino.nero-800.jpg

and shows slight turanid influence.

[gültekin]

Stop cherrypicking white turks

These guys are proud of being mongrels.

Avarage turk look like this

and shows slight turanid influence.
sikerim lan dalağını malaka
http://i.imgur.com/Nj5Biny.gif

[Danishmend]

History says whenever you fight in equal numbers you suck cock from everyone.


Yea when it suits you we were just a few nomads, when it doesn't you talk otherwise. The Seljuk Turks were outnumbered by Byzantines when they arrived in Anatolia yet they were able to win every battle they fought. That was the real cause of Crusades you schmuck, Byzantines alone were too sissy to deal with the Turks

[HellLander87]

Yea when it suits you we were just a few nomads, when it doesn't you talk otherwise. The Seljuk Turks were outnumbered by Byzantines when they arrived in Anatolia yet they were able to win every battle they fought. That was the real cause of Crusades you genius, Byzantines alone were too sissy to deal with the Turks
The thing is that you are descended from these anatolian looser subhumans for the most part rather than the slanted eyed horsearchers.

[wvwvw]

-I don't consider greece as an european country, don't take it personal balkans or even eastern europe is not european to me.

Lol hilarious. Turks took over one of the most advanced regions of the world and managed to bring it back to the stone ages Now they don't that region is European enough these gypsies :laugh:

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

Lol hilarious. Turks took over one of the most advanced regions of the world and managed to bring it back to the stone ages Now they don't that region is European enough these gypsies :laugh:

Blame the christians honey.

[Danishmend]

The thing is that you are descended from these anatolian looser subhumans for the most part rather than the slanted eyed horsearchers.

A mixture of both, btw how dare you call natives losers when overwhelming majority of your nation is descended from pre-indo european natives of what is now Greek peninsula

[gültekin]

The Germans say: "Griechen sind Türken, die sich für Italiener halten". So, Greeks are Turks who claim to be Italians. :P
:pound: http://gutezitate.com/zitate-bilder/zitat-griechen-sind-turken-die-sich-fur-italiener-halten-josef-joffe-183322.jpg

[HellLander87]

A mixture of both, btw how dare you call natives losers when overwhelming majority of your nation is descended from pre-indo european natives of what is now Greek peninsula
How did you called the native anatolians? sissies?:laugh:
You were right.They were sissies and they were your ancestors
Also I am surprised you didn't mention that all humans are ultimately from Africa, the neolithic and ice age migrations etc
And don't use the word dare when talking to me, animal.

[wvwvw]

:pound: http://gutezitate.com/zitate-bilder/zitat-griechen-sind-turken-die-sich-fur-italiener-halten-josef-joffe-183322.jpg

Projecting your complexes on Greeks makes you a laughing stock.

Turks that put Greek flags on their avatars and write Hellenic in their ancestry, use signature quotes that state Turks are Greek it's easy to see who are the complexed wanna bees.

[gültekin]

Projecting your complexes on Greeks makes you a laughing stock.

Turks that put Greek flags on their avatars and write Hellenic in their ancestry, use signature quotes that state Turks are Greek it's easy to see who are the complexed wanna bees.
uza http://i.imgur.com/Nj5Biny.gif

[Danishmend]

How did you called the native anatolians? sissies?:laugh:
You were right.They were sissies and they were your ancestors
Also I am surprised you didn't mention that all humans are ultimately from Africa, the neolithic and ice age migrations etc
They were descendants of Hittite chariot riders, Pryhgians, Galatians etc, and actually they cooperated with Seljuk Turks against the Byzantines, then they began to convert to Islam, and were absorbed by Turks through intermarriage.

Besides, you better stop throwing stones from a glass house, the language you speak today was imposed on your people by a small group of R1a carrying Indo-European horsemen. That is why instead of R1a, you have neolithic haplogroups such J and E dominating the Greece. On the other hand, the Turks were already a mixed people even before their arrival to Anatolia. And according to Byzantine chronicles they were as crowded as grasshoppers and when they arrived to Anatolia, Anatolia became a Turkmen sea and the subjects of Byzantium seemed like small islands in the middle of an ocean. This is an exaggeration of course but at least it puts an end to elite dominance theory which is very popular on anthroforas.




And don't use the word dare when talking to me, animal.

You are the ones who behave like animals. Look at yourself, you communicate like an ape, and probably beat your chest while typing. I feel like i'm talking to a primitive species. You went apeshit over the thing i said about Pontic Greeks. Yes, they are genetically native to Northeast Anatolia and do cluster with Georgians, Laz, Eastern Black Sea Turks etc; big fucking deal. Why can't you just respond like normal human beings?

[Petros Houhoulis]

Do you even read?


They use Kyrgyz (who are 70% east eurasian) samples to determine the so-called Central Asian admixture in Turkey. It's like using Baltic samples to determine "real Greek blood" in Greece since it is said that early Greek speakers (and all early Indo-European speakers in general) resembled modern Baltic peoples. Outdated pseudo-science

You are horribly discombobulated my friend. Let's clarify the relation between genes and languages:

Actually, we are quite certain that the original IndoEuropean speaking Greeks had R1a/R1b genes - because those genes exist in every place where an IndoEuropean language exists for millenia, from India and Iran to Iceland and Spain - and Greece has 11.5%+15.5%=27% of R1a+R1b haplotype genes nowadays. We are also quite certain that the original Altaic speaking Turks had C genes - because those genes exist in every place where an Altaic language is spoken, from Turkey and Kyrgyzstan to Korea and Japan - and Turkey has a mere ~3% of C haplotype genes...

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Nevertheless, there is little influence to modern (or even ancient!) Greek culture from the other European cultures which are IndoEuropean. On the contrary, the modern Turks are still fascinated by "Grey wolves" and maintain a Central Asian mentality (or simply genocidal stupidity) down to this day...

[Petros Houhoulis]

A mixture of both, btw how dare you call natives losers when overwhelming majority of your nation is descended from pre-indo european natives of what is now Greek peninsula

Well, even the losing side contributed significantly to the Greek vocabulary. For example the word thalassa (sea), nearly all the words for agriculture e.t.c. do not have an IndoEuropean origin. I very much doubt that the Turkish language has any Hittite or Lydian words in its' modern form...

...And of course with no haplogroup having a clear majority in Greece, there was bound to be some winners and some losers...

[Scholarios]

you talk too much, shut up your mouth, you little cunt :) i think, you must continue to beg money from european

Our system in Greece is broken and corrupt. But we seem to do quite well when we leave our own poison social system. What is Turks' excuse?

What a Waste; (http://www.economist.com/node/15641057)

Nearly one-third of Germany's Turks, the largest group of immigrants other than ethnic Germans, have no secondary-school diploma, and just 14% qualify to go to university. Some 16% are dependent on welfare, twice the share of native Germans.

[HellLander87]

blah,blah... then they began selling their ass to muhamad...blah,blah


Yup they were loosers.

[Graus]

Have we come to a point were a proud "mongrel nation" can determine, who is a proper European and who is not? Guess the camel with my notification got lost on the way...

[Graus]

In my humble German opinion Greeks are fellow Europeans, if it pleases our Turkish overlords of course...

[Linet]

Not "many", I've seen too many results and only those from Northeast Anatolia (including Pontus Greeks and Eastern Black Sea Turks) tend to come out as Armenians since there is no other reference population to separate them from Armenians

The thing is....the Pontics that didnt get islamised :hail:, didnt mix with Turks and the others around, those who got islamised, mixed and mixed and stayed there.....so...not legit http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/no/t2629.gif


They are culturally Greek but genetically they're only partially Greek. You also seem to forget that Cyprus is an Independent country much like Malta.

Θα σε καρυδώσω http://yoursmiles.org/ssmile/quarrel/s0640.gif


There is no such thing as "full-blooded" Pontic Greeks. The majority are hellenized Anatolians.

Oh yeah :rockon: ...i agree with you :nod: ...Let history go to hell :flyingdev! Lets follow the rule of "If i say it enough times it may change the time continuous and become reality" !!! http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/boum-schwati-oush-smiley.gif?1292867559


They seem to be genetically indigenous to the region

Of course they are :thumbs: .....because they are Greeks .....Even if we vanished from Pontus when you arrived there :fhhorse: ...we would still be there 2000 years when you are there barely 1000....but we didnt vanish....we were in Pontus for 3000 years... till you decided to do a nice genocide to remember you old tribal ways.


Still better than a Greek with Berberid headshape and afro hair texture

I don't claim them, i'm simply stating a fact. Greek speaking Pontians are genetically native to their ancestral region. Karamanlides on the other hand were christian Turks (with Turkish as their mother tongue)

Country=/=Government

Berberid headshape and to have crafted science http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/explanation-smiley.gif?1292867591 and everythign of value in this world http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/book-smiley.gif?1292867558 or dessert nomad http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/camel-smiley.gif?1292867563 that till 1929 couldnt write his name? What a great dilemma :fponder:
how on earth did we christinise Turks? :eusa_eh: ...They were Greeks and Raine has posted you before texts from that time....but its obvious you cant read :book2: and you spam the same things again and again :blah:....


You are dreaming. Where the hell did we connect ourselves with Greeks? How does stating the fact that Pontic Greeks are Hellenized locals make us Greek wannabes? On the contrary, people still use "yunan/rum tohumu (Greek seed)" as an insult, try to call a Turk "Greek" IRL, he will beat you to death. What makes your bankrupt country 1st world anyway?


You wouldnt like them to be Greeks...of course you wouldnt....you already have enought minorities and you are more than mixed already....
Well....our culture? :fdancing: ...ok i admit defeat :cry2: .....to say that to a Turk who has no idea what culture is, is stupid :pout: ...but i cant explain it better :noidea:

[gültekin]

get to the point, 're boring :bored:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89vkkysQ8f8

[Linet]

Some facts:

-Pontic greeks are genetically native to northeast Turkey.Autosomal results of pontic greeks are similar to hemshin,laz,georgian and turkish results from north-east turkey. G and L are the most popular HG's , not those slavic/semitic/african HG's.
-Greeks, especially from Asia Minor(pontics,karamanlis etc) have definitely Turkish blood. But i think Turks have more greek blood than vice versa (because assimilation/conversion/slavery).
-I don't consider greece as an european country, don't take it personal balkans or even eastern europe is not european to me.
-European union is just an economic union. I think countries like germany,france,uk,benelux,sweden should leave EU and create their own union.

-Pontics now there, are heavily mixed no matter if you overlook it http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/girl2-smiley.gif?1292867606....because since they became muslims, they had no problem to mix with muslims :love0034:
-Greeks that married Turks would become Turks :chicken: and their children would grow up as Turks, in case of rapes...well not every rape leads to pregnacy....and even in those cases most of the times they would kill the baby or would abort it before to even get born.
-Well, we defined Europe and Asia, we are the ones to say that Europe as a separate continent http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/earth-hug-smiley.gif?1292867587...so our game, our rules :cool: .....it still has the name we gave it, doesnt it? :chin:
-I think the same :high5


Lol hilarious. Turks took over one of the most advanced regions of the world and managed to bring it back to the stone ages Now they don't that region is European enough these gypsies :laugh:


I reposted because i loved it :love0020:

[Danishmend]

Linet, no matter how many times you repeat the argument that you, Pontic or Cypriot Greeks have no foreign admixture at all, it doesn't make that any less funny when it comes to genetic. Pontic Greeks, for example, are genetically much more closer to Laz people than to mainland Greeks. And Cypriots to Lebanese. There are some differences even between Northern and Southern Greeks.

[Linet]

Linet, no matter how many times you repeat the argument that you, Pontic or Cypriot Greeks have no foreign admixture at all, it doesn't make that any less funny when it comes to genetic. Pontic Greeks, for example, are genetically much more closer to Laz people than to mainland Greeks. And Cypriots to Lebanese. There are some differences even between Northern and Southern Greeks.

I'm not here to tame these rabid Greek dogs anyway, the more i spend my time here, the more i feel infected


There are no Pontic Greeks in Turkey any more...or to be precise, they were once :old....but those who were Islamised, they are mixing with Turks and everyone else around for the last 600 years :lovebire:...and those are the only ones that are still there and i would be happy if they are 1/5 Greeks after all this mixing...:tsk:

The Christian Pontic Greeks on the other hand, would not mix with Turks :stop: ....and if they did....
Do you really think the Turk would give his daughter to a Greek who at that time was slave and let her become Christian http://textemoticons.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/tumblr_inline_mmzqdufBrg1qz4rgp.gif?
Or maybe you think a Turk who wanted a Greek girl would become Christian and live happily ever after with her as a Greek https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQOpgXCVtSUZ88f8TSbABGLsYX3v9Z0w 3MPLdj0md56sQZR4NdiDg? Nope.....In both cases...the Greeks would be the ones to change :hail: and after that they would have to kiss the Greek community goodbye for obvious reasons....so we are going back to the Islamised Pontics again....

[Danishmend]

There are no Pontic Greeks in Turkey any more...or to be precise, they were once :old....but those who were Islamised, they are mixing with Turks and everyone else around for the last 600 years :lovebire:...and those are the only ones that are still there and i would be happy if they are 1/5 Greeks after all this mixing...:tsk:

The Christian Pontic Greeks on the other hand, would not mix with Turks :stop: ....and if they did....
Do you really think the Turk would give his daughter to a Greek who at that time was slave and let her become Christian http://textemoticons.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/tumblr_inline_mmzqdufBrg1qz4rgp.gif?
Or maybe you think a Turk who wanted a Greek girl would become Christian and live happily ever after with her as a Greek https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQOpgXCVtSUZ88f8TSbABGLsYX3v9Z0w 3MPLdj0md56sQZR4NdiDg? Nope.....In both cases...the Greeks would be the ones to change :hail: and after that they would have to kiss the Greek community goodbye for obvious reasons....so we are going back to the Islamised Pontics again....

A picture is worth a thousand words, Cypriot Greeks cluster separate from Mainlanders, and head toward Levantines (Druze, Samaritans etc). Unfortunately Pontus Greeks aren't included
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/Kadu_album/West_Central_Eurasia.png

[Deus-Et-Dominus-Natu]

Nazi idiots!!! go to hell :mad: :mad:

[Linet]

A picture is worth a thousand words, Cypriot Greeks cluster separate from Mainlanders, and head toward Levantines (Druze, Samaritans etc). Unfortunately Pontus Greeks aren't included
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/Kadu_album/West_Central_Eurasia.png

I thougth we are talking about Pontus Greeks.... :chin: ...Pontus Greeks are now included to Greeces general population :grouphug: and as you see they dont bring us closer to the Turks :fhhorse:

I dont care if Cypriot Greeks are black with green stripes http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/elloco-smiley.gif?1292867589, they are Greeks and anyone who says no http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/no/t2666.gif can hit his butt down, this fact still wont change http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/raccoon/bottle-raccoon-emoticon.gif?1302774067

[Aviator]

Nazi idiots!!! go to hell :mad: :mad:

Did you really just create a troll account to go around thumbing people down? You just joined and you've already given 23 thumbs down.

[Alphawolf]

[...]

Hello Hans, my recommendation: You should travel to Greece and greet a Greek with "Guten Tag". The answer could be: Ti "Guten Tag" re malaka? FIge na mi se gamisou Kolo germanara.

[Dianatomia]

They were descendants of Hittite chariot riders, Pryhgians, Galatians etc, and actually they cooperated with Seljuk Turks against the Byzantines, then they began to convert to Islam, and were absorbed by Turks through intermarriage.

Besides, you better stop throwing stones from a glass house, the language you speak today was imposed on your people by a small group of R1a carrying Indo-European horsemen. That is why instead of R1a, you have neolithic haplogroups such J and E dominating the Greece. On the other hand, the Turks were already a mixed people even before their arrival to Anatolia. And according to Byzantine chronicles they were as crowded as grasshoppers and when they arrived to Anatolia, Anatolia became a Turkmen sea and the subjects of Byzantium seemed like small islands in the middle of an ocean. This is an exaggeration of course but at least it puts an end to elite dominance theory which is very popular on anthroforas.



We don't really know who brought proto-hellenic to Greece. There are various conflicting hypotheses. Some say it's indigenous. Besides that, proto-hellenic heavily mixed with pre-Greek to create Achaean (ancient) Greek. For this reason it is not really a close relative to other indo-european languages. That said, who cares who brought the language. E-V13, J2 and R1* dominated in Greek peoples (which also had Pelasgian, Cycladic, Minoan elements) and have influenced world history beyond measure. The proto-hellenic element is just one of several ingredients in the soup which made the Greek people and culture. Without the other ingredients, the soup is tasteless.

[Dianatomia]

:pound: http://gutezitate.com/zitate-bilder/zitat-griechen-sind-turken-die-sich-fur-italiener-halten-josef-joffe-183322.jpg

You do realize that this is being put forward to insult the Greeks? No matter whether the author actually believes it or not (it could very well have been used as a provocation), much less that it is true. It is a form of denigrating the Greeks. The comparison to Turks is being used to denigrate or insult the Greeks. So beyond the claim, the hidden message is that Turks are some denigrated people by which others do not want to be compared to.

This is actually the worst thing one could post as a Turk.

If it would be the way around, I as a Greek would be heavily offended. In its current form I see it as trolling by an angry German.

[Casandrinos]

When Turks can't convince others that they are European, they try to distance Greeks and Balkanites from the rest of Europe claiming they have an influence upon us.

So do a lot of MENA's.

When they are told that they can't pass in Europe they start claiming Southern.Euros as being their 'lost brothers''

Although in the case of turks this is not an individual self hate disorder but an ethnic paranoia that is derived from the perception of their own nation as being superior. (meanwhile they live in slamhouses with 10 times worse living standards than any European :laugh:)

[Linet]

You do realize that this is being put forward to insult the Greeks? No matter whether the author actually believes it or not (it could very well have been used as a provocation), much less that it is true. It is a form of denigrating the Greeks. The comparison to Turks is being used to denigrate or insult the Greeks. So beyond the claim, the hidden message is that Turks are some denigrated people by which others do not want to be compared to.

This is actually the worst thing one could post as a Turk.

If it would be the way around, I as a Greek would be heavily offended. In its current form I see it as trolling by an angry German.

Actually i found this phrase :chin:, is just a random guy who said it, a publiser :book2:.....so what? Is not what Germans say :nono:....PLUS yes is actually offensive for the Turks :chicken: rather than us since he tries to diminish us by comparing us to them :lol:

[Sikeliot]

Pontians are genetically closer to Armenians, Georgians, northeastern Turks, etc. than to Greeks, but that doesn't make them less Greek since that's how they identify. And it doesn't make them "Turks" either since they were Hellenized way before Turks even set foot in Anatolia.


Some Pontic results, and then a Cretan for comparison, so we can see the difference, as the difference with mainland Greeks is even bigger. For island Greeks on 23andme they score Italian > Balkan > Middle Eastern, and are similar in ratio and proportion to Sicilians except with slightly less Middle Eastern and more Balkan. Mainland Greeks are largely Balkan.

http://i62.tinypic.com/xn6z9h.jpg

Another Cretan:

http://i62.tinypic.com/ifx729.jpg



OK, now the Pontians. See the difference? The first one is only half, so multiply his MENA by 2.

http://i57.tinypic.com/21mgu3q.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/w7ork0.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/16av6f5.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/33cao06.jpg

[Graus]

Hello Hans, my recommendation: You should travel to Greece and greet a Greek with "Guten Tag". The answer could be: Ti "Guten Tag" re malaka? FIge na mi se gamisou Kolo germanara.

Funny Ali, I actually have been to Greece recently and didnt got one negative comment. Despite of the tense situation the Greeks mentained manners and friendliness, traits you Anatolian peasants never possed to begin with.

[Sikeliot]

Linet, those ARE Pontic Greeks. I can send you a list of their names, they all end in -idis :)

[Linet]

The Pontic Greeks are into the general population of Greece :grouphug: , not a separate group. The Pontic-muslim Greeks, who are left behind, still many have Greek names....but they are mixed with the Islamic populations :love0034:.

[Sikeliot]

The Pontic Greeks are into the general population of Greece :grouphug: , not a separate group. The Pontic-muslim Greeks, who are left behind, still have Greek names....but they are mixed with the Islamic populations.

Then why does every Greek I share with who has even one Pontian grandparent have an inflated MENA score? I can show you another.

[Linet]

Then why does every Greek I share with who has even one Pontian grandparent have an inflated MENA score? I can show you another.

First you have to explain me what MENA is :chin:

[Sikeliot]

First you have to explain me what MENA is :chin:

Anatolia/Caucasus/Levant/etc. Basically just compare even a half Pontic person to a Cretan Greek and you'll see that they have double/triple the Middle Eastern.

[gültekin]

Funny Ali, I actually have been to Greece recently and didnt got one negative comment. Despite of the tense situation the Greeks mentained manners and friendliness, traits you Anatolian peasants never possed to begin with.
http://i.imgur.com/Nj5Biny.gif

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ7qP7DaAY4

[Linet]

Anatolia/Caucasus/Levant/etc. Basically just compare even a half Pontic person to a Cretan Greek and you'll see that they have double/triple the Middle Eastern.

Greeks have been tribal http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/survivor-smiley.gif?1292867683 since ancient times-Aeolians,Dorians,Ionians,Arcadians etc-people who already had minor differences. Those people also colonised the whole mediterranean sea http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Transports/ship-022.gif.
I care that Pontics have Greek blood :rose:, a minor admixing is what happened to all of the Greeks anyway. But is minor and didnt change the main element and nationality :sunny: .
If Sicilians have 15% local sicilian-Norman, the Epirotans have 15% Illyrian and Ionians/Pontics have 20% middle Eastern blood...sorry but it doesnt make them less Greeks since those are element that got into our blood stream since ancient times :old

[Sikeliot]

Sicilians are somewhere between Greeks and Cypriots generally, which makes sense for a population that is largely descended from Greeks and other similar peoples (Italics, Elymians, etc.) with moderate Phoenician and Norman input. Pontians don't seem to be Greek in ancestry at all except for the 10% or so of them that comes up European.

When you consider that Cretans, one of the most genetically West Asian group of Greeks, come up only 15% Middle Eastern (even though it's higher on other calculators), Pontians scoring 80-90% IS significant.

[wvwvw]

Linet, those ARE Pontic Greeks. I can send you a list of their names, they all end in -idis :)

Surnames that end in -idis are not necessarily of Pontic ancestry. They are widespread in Cyprus too. More than half of the surnames in Cyprus end in -idis.

Show us a seperate category for Pontic Greeks on dodecad or shut up. I have already exposed the turkish troll on 23andme posing as a pontic Greek woman

[Linet]

Surnames that end in -idis are not necessarily of Pontic ancestry. They are widespread in Cyprus too. More than half of the surnames in Cyprus end in -idis.

Show us a seperate category for Pontic Greeks on dodecad or shut up. I have already exposed the turkish troll on 23andme posing as a pontic Greek woman

True....but i want to kill you :flynch:

[Linet]

Sicilians are somewhere between Greeks and Cypriots generally, which makes sense for a population that is largely descended from Greeks and other similar peoples (Italics, Elymians, etc.) with moderate Phoenician and Norman input. Pontians don't seem to be Greek in ancestry at all except for the 10% or so of them that comes up European.

When you consider that Cretans, one of the most genetically West Asian group of Greeks, come up only 15% Middle Eastern (even though it's higher on other calculators), Pontians scoring 80-90% IS significant.

Then all Greeks should be closer to the Anatolians.... Greece accepted a population of over 1mil people, when itself had less than 6mil. :chin:

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

True....but i want to kill you :flynch:

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTRuFIMzujsJfrZElOFc7jhjzBFivNhT JxFbWl9l5Ql2yzqwRGbUA

[Linet]

Sorry, i just checked and take it back....Greece accepted 1mil people when Greece itself had a population of 4mil. So we talk about the 1/4 of our population..... :grouphug:
Guess....if those people were Anatolians, then where every Greek should be in your charts :chin:?

[Linet]

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTRuFIMzujsJfrZElOFc7jhjzBFivNhT JxFbWl9l5Ql2yzqwRGbUA


If i catch her.... http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/evil-smile-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862503
I will drink her blood with a straw http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/bled2-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862492

[Linet]

This is a chart of how much of the population was from Minor-Asia and Pontus in some Greek cities after 1922 destruction.
The capital of Crete had 35% of its population to be from Pontus/Minor Asia. :rose:

http://www.delfini1922.gr/1922_24/image030.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Surnames that end in -idis are not necessarily of Pontic ancestry. They are widespread in Cyprus too. More than half of the surnames in Cyprus end in -idis.

It says right on their profile that their families came from what's now northern Turkey.

[Linet]

As you can see in a city the Pontians became the 70% of the whole population.

[Linet]

So? :blink:
And i tell you the demographics. Greece got 1/4 raise of its population by people from Asia Minor. That would bring i believe the entire Greece close to the Anatolians :fdancing: .....since we arent.....

[Casandrinos]

So? :blink:
And i tell you the demographics. Greece got 1/4 raise of its population by people from Asia Minor. That would bring i believe the entire Greece close to the Anatolians :fdancing: .....since we arent.....


We're talking about Pontians here who are 10% minority themselves inside Asia Minor Greeks.

The map is cool .

However I expected cities like Kilkis, Kozani ,Grevena to have at least 50% and are not even there.

[Linet]

We're talking about Pontians here who are 10% minority themselves inside Asia Minor Greeks.

The map is cool .

However I expected cities like Kilkis, Kozani ,Grevena to have at least 50% and are not even there.

Me too :chin:
But the numbers are go big (i mean 1/4 of the population in rise) that Greece had to send huge numbers of people in every city and village all around the country.

[Linet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osdoxE8aiww

[Casandrinos]

As for the Pontians

I dont get what's the big deal

Except from the fact that there is no serious research on them yet

DNA doesn't determine ancestry

Someone with 3000 years Greek ancestry and Georgian-like DNA has been proven Greek enough to my book

Better give a more scientific approach to this subject

So we won't mourn any cyber-casualties :icon_lol:

[Linet]

As for the Pontians

I dont get what's the big deal

Except from the fact that there is no serious research on them yet

DNA doesn't determine ancestry

Someone with 3000 years Greek ancestry and Georgian-like DNA has been proven Greek enough to my book

Better give a more scientific approach to this subject

So we won't mourn any cyber-casualties :icon_lol:

DNA does determine ancestry :baby2000:
But, i totally agree with the rest :thumbs:

[Casandrinos]

DNA does determine ancestry :baby2000:
But, i totally agree with the rest :thumbs:


If you consider Kasidiaris Greek

Who looks very atypical (and Morocan).

Then you can't use DNA to determine peoples ethnicity.

Because i know and you know that he will get as much MENA as those odd samples.

[Linet]

His look is phenotype, not DNA :nono:
....I never talked about looks... :eyes

[Casandrinos]

His look is phenotype, not DNA :nono:
....I never talked about looks... :eyes

Looks do correlate with phenotypes though.

You can't look Greek without having the right genes.:cool:

[Sikeliot]

Pontians being genetically Georgian doesn't mean they're not ethnically Greek, it just means they are not genetically Greek.

[Linet]

Pontians being genetically Georgian doesn't mean they're not ethnically Greek, it just means they are not genetically Greek.

Nobody talks about Pontians now and they are genetically Greek :sunny: . In case its prooved otherwise we will notify you first...http://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/metiers/facteur07b.gif

[Casandrinos]

Pontians being genetically Georgian doesn't mean they're not ethnically Greek, it just means they are not genetically Greek.

Correct

But we don't know that for sure

4 samples are very few

[Casandrinos]

Anyway it's time to go now

Gonna get my syringe

To open holes in every atypical Pontian i see in the street. :lol:

[Sikeliot]

There is an old Pontian couple in my town, from the Caucasus and they have Russian names and look kind of North Caucasian.

[Linet]

There is an old Pontian couple in my town, from the Caucasus and they have Russian names and look kind of North Caucasian.

A tip, not every Pontian is Greek :nono:....there are also the Rossopontians as we call them, as well as Turks that now consider themselves Pontians although they are newcomers :fhhorse: etc etc etc
The people you talk about, i am 90% sure they are Rossopontians :icon_ask:

[Danishmend]

When Turks can't convince others that they are European, they try to distance Greeks and Balkanites from the rest of Europe claiming they have an influence upon us.

So do a lot of MENA's.

When they are told that they can't pass in Europe they start claiming Southern.Euros as being their 'lost brothers''

I've never seen a Turk trying to convince others that he is European, claiming Greeks as his lost brothers. Your post is based on nothing but wishful thinking, dreams and lies. We have our own unique culture, dna and language that make us different than our neighboring countries. I know that you Greeks care too much about what others (especially the rest of Europe) think of you, but thanks God we don't suffer from such complexes.

And yes, whether you like it or not, we do have an influence on you (genetic influence is negligible though) since you were ruled by Turks for hundreds of years. But it doesn't make you Turks of course, nor does it make you our lost brothers. You were just our subjects

[Dianatomia]

Pontians are genetically closer to Armenians, Georgians, northeastern Turks, etc. than to Greeks, but that doesn't make them less Greek since that's how they identify. And it doesn't make them "Turks" either since they were Hellenized way before Turks even set foot in Anatolia.


Some Pontic results, and then a Cretan for comparison, so we can see the difference, as the difference with mainland Greeks is even bigger. For island Greeks on 23andme they score Italian > Balkan > Middle Eastern, and are similar in ratio and proportion to Sicilians except with slightly less Middle Eastern and more Balkan. Mainland Greeks are largely Balkan.

http://i62.tinypic.com/xn6z9h.jpg

Another Cretan:

http://i62.tinypic.com/ifx729.jpg



OK, now the Pontians. See the difference? The first one is only half, so multiply his MENA by 2.

http://i57.tinypic.com/21mgu3q.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/w7ork0.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/16av6f5.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/33cao06.jpg

This methodology is not scientific at all. I.e. Cypriots could have 75% similar DNA to mainland Greeks, but because the other 25% is different they fall in a whole different category.

The only way you can estimate the ancestry is by analyzing subclades. I.e. Georgians could have 27% J2 and Greeks 20%, but the Greeks have different subclades than the Georgians. I.e. much more J2a or J2b. Yet if i.e. Pontian Greeks have 27% J2, a lot of it could be from the Greeks, but that would not show up on the charts. Instead the charts will assign Pontians to a group which has more J2, like Georgians. They would incidentally score less Balkanic who have less J2, even though Pontians may have a lot of J2 which stems from the Balkans.

As there is no research for Pontian Greeks, we can not know their ancestry. However, given the fact that half the population in Greek Macedonia consists of Pontian Greeks and there have been several researches in northern Greece in general, we do have a clue as to the ancestry of Pontian Greeks. Georgians and Armenians have almost no E-V13, plenty of G (30% in Georgians) and lots of J1. Well, North Greece scores normal E-V13 levels for Greek standards (20%), lower levels of G than that of Central Greece (4.5% vs 6 %) and even J1 (2.5 %) is below Greek average (3%). If we are to assume that Pontians are indigenous Caucasus the numbers just don't add up.

And why compare Cretans with Pontians?

[Sikeliot]

I consider and am open to the possibility that the above scores are not representative, but at the same time I am just providing the data I have.

Even Dienekes once said that the Pontian cluster, if he made one in a certain run would be close to the Georgian/Armenian/NE Turks with 5% more North Euro. I will find it if I can, where he said this.

Cretans are close to southern Italians and are one of the more West Asian influenced groups of Greeks, even more so than other islanders, which is why I compared them.

[cally]

From what I can see on 23andme, Turks/ottomans didn't leave any DNA behind in the Balkans but the opposite happened: they absorbed a lot of Balkan blood.

[Linet]

I consider and am open to the possibility that the above scores are not representative, but at the same time I am just providing the data I have.

Cretans are close to southern Italians and are one of the more West Asian influenced groups of Greeks, even more so than other islanders, which is why I compared them.


And why you ignore the demographics? :eusa_eh:
You just love spamming the same thing? http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/forum/t1247.gif

[wvwvw]

From what I can see on 23andme, Turks/ottomans didn't leave any DNA behind in the Balkans but the opposite happened: they absorbed a lot of Balkan blood.

Their 'Balkan' blood is minor compared to the Iranian, Syrian, Kurdish, Armenian, Mongol, Arab and Levantine blood they have absorbed. jenissaries weren't allowed to reproduce and died without offsprings.

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

Athens was a village few centuries ago.. and it was inhabited by arnavites. Saloniki was never hellenic it was a jewish/turkish city until 1913. On the other hand some places in asia minor/anatolia had significant greek population (Bursa,Karaman, Trabzon, samsun, ordu, giresun etc). Its pathetic you don't accept pontics as real greeks while italians, albanians even slavs are greeks just because they have more european dna, lol.

And i thought greeks didn't like the catholics(1204) much, now its changing? Because there was a greek member who was very proud of the frankish genetic contribution to greece(probably rapes), since its european its good :D

[Linet]

Athens was a village few centuries ago.. and it was inhabited by arnavites. Saloniki was never hellenic it was a jewish/turkish city until 1913. On the other hand some places in asia minor/anatolia had significant greek population (Bursa,Karaman, Trabzon, samsun, ordu, giresun etc). Its pathetic you don't accept pontics as real greeks while italians, albanians even slavs are greeks just because they have more european dna, lol.

And i thought greeks didn't like the catholics(1204) much, now its changing? Because there was a greek member who was very proud of the frankish genetic contribution to greece(probably rapes), since its european its good :D

On serious level....Turks were more civilised than Franks, Venetians and other Europeans. In general they wouldnt do monstrocities http://yoursmiles.org/ssmile/quarrel/s0640.gif if they didnt have a purpose in their minds. Europeans could do it just because you passed from the wrong side of the street.

...if you are trying to light an Albano-Greek war http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/busted-smiley.gif?1292867562.....you failed http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/no-points-smiley.gif?1292867644.

For the rest...some history reading :book2: will be enlighting for you :lightbul:, i guarandie :wink



We dont accept Pontics as real Greeks? :shocked: ......They are real Greeks http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/group-hug2-smiley.gif?1292867610....who on earth said the opposite :eusa_eh:? Did you care to read the previous conversations :confused2:?

[HellLander87]

I've never seen a Turk trying to convince others that he is European, claiming Greeks as his lost brothers. Your post is based on nothing but wishful thinking, dreams and lies. We have our own unique culture, dna and language that make us different than our neighboring countries. I know that you Greeks care too much about what others (especially the rest of Europe) think of you, but thanks God we don't suffer from such complexes.

And yes, whether you like it or not, we do have an influence on you (genetic influence is negligible though) since you were ruled by Turks for hundreds of years. But it doesn't make you Turks of course, nor does it make you our lost brothers. You were just our subjects

STFU rum tohumu

[Linet]

STFU rum tohomu

τι σημαίνει αυτό; :icon_ask:;

[HellLander87]

τι σημαίνει αυτό; :icon_ask:;
quote from danishmend

On the contrary, people still use "yunan/rum tohumu (Greek seed)" as an insult, try to call a Turk "Greek" IRL, he will beat you to death.
;)

[Danishmend]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhGWTGwAcRg

[wvwvw]

On serious level....Turks were more civilised than Franks, Venetians and other Europeans. In general they wouldnt do monstrocities http://yoursmiles.org/ssmile/quarrel/s0640.gif if they didnt have a purpose in their minds. Europeans could do it just because you passed from the wrong side of the street.

...if you are trying to light an Albano-Greek war http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/busted-smiley.gif?1292867562.....you failed http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/no-points-smiley.gif?1292867644.

For the rest...some history reading :book2: will be enlighting for you :lightbul:, i guarandie :wink



We dont accept Pontics as real Greeks? :shocked: ......They are real Greeks http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/group-hug2-smiley.gif?1292867610....who on earth said the opposite :eusa_eh:? Did you care to read the previous conversations :confused2:?

What a dumb thing to say. Overall, Franks, Venetians etc benefited us a great deal. Crete and the Ionian islands prospered under Venetian rule. That period produced countless intellectuals and artists like El Greco.

Turks were newcomers and Byzantines naively assumed they'd be better than Franks and Latins. But they proved to be infinitely worse Wherever they went civilization disappeared from view and massacre after massacre was the norm throughout the Turkish rule.

If we had converted to catholicism, we would probably be able to attract help from other catholics and we'd probably have escaped four of the darkest centuries of our history. So don't blame the latins, blame the Orthodox Church for wanting us to remain Orthodox. What the Orthodox church did was unforgivable and despicable.

[Linet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhGWTGwAcRg

And hello from Cyprus :rose:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51M98y6GDdA

[LightHouse89]

Raine because I know you will thumb me down I will say yes Greeks have some relation to Turks....however western Turks not eastern. Greeks still look European.

[Danishmend]

And hello from Cyprus :rose:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51M98y6GDdA



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFtLNa3kOss

[Linet]

Raine because I know you will thumb me down I will say yes Greeks have some relation to Turks....however western Turks not eastern. Greeks still look European.

http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/pink-mouse/cockroach-killer-pink-mouse-emoticon.gif?1292950505

[wvwvw]

%88 greek have Anatolian gene :D

There are no Anatolian genes retard. Just different ethnic groups that inhabited the region. Western Anatolia genes, Thracian, Galatian etc had been absorbed into the Greek and Bulgarian pool already before BC. You have none of these 'genes'.

Your genes are Irano-Kurdish, Armenian,Syro-Arab, Egyptian, Mongoll with minor Pontic Greek blood that has completely been diluted into the far greater eastern anatolian turkomongolian blood.

[LightHouse89]

http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/pink-mouse/cockroach-killer-pink-mouse-emoticon.gif?1292950505

I am the annoying bug and she cannot get me hahahaha.

[Danishmend]

Raine is too hotheaded for a female

[wvwvw]

Saloniki was never hellenic it was a jewish/turkish city until 1913.

Turkomongoloid* gypsy, Greeks have always been the majority in Thessaloniki. There are countless historical documents that prove that. The only time we were significantly reduced in numbers were when you indiscriminatey massacred half the Greek population of the city.

*In this case literally judging by your dna results

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

edit

[HellLander87]

Turkomongoloid*
pff the turko part is redundant.mongoloid would suffice..

[Linet]

PONTİAKS ARE GENETİCALLY AND CULTURALLY ANATOLİAN :D

Hey raine Why you are so angry?? You jealous our beautiful country and culture.

You mean of our country ? yes...our country is beautifull :rose:....and you are foreigners here.

Γιατί εσείς είστε ξένοι κι όσα βάγια αν κρατάτε
τούτη η γη δεν πουλιέται δεν της γίνεστε φίλοι
η πατρίδα είναι μάνα έχει μνήμη θυμάται
απ' τον άγιο της κόρφο ποια βυζάξανε χείλη
κι η γλυκειά μας η χώρα ήταν είναι θα μένει
για τα τέκνα της μάνα μα για σας πάντα ξένη

Λογαριάσατε λάθος με το νου σας εμπόροι
δε μτριέται πατρίδα λευτεριά με τον πήχη
κι αν μικρός είναι ο τόπος και το θέλει και μπορεί
τον ασήκωτο βράχο να τον φάει με το νύχι
Τούτη η δίψα δε σβήνει τούτη η μάχη δε παύει
χίλια χρόνια αν περάσουν δεν πεθαίνουμε σκλάβοι

[Linet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxROd0UYDck

Για μένα αυτό το τραγούδι δεν μιλά μόνο για την Κύπρο, αλλά για όλες τις χαμένες μας πατρίδες.

[wvwvw]

Άσε ρε Λινέτ και σύ, ότι θυμάσαι χαίρεσαι :D

[HellLander87]

Linet den eisai ellinida?Kypria eisai?;)

[Linet]

Άσε ρε Λινέτ και σύ, ότι θυμάσαι χαίρεσαι :D

Απαντάω στον άλλο που σου λέει αν ζηλεύεις την χώρα του....
Ποια χώρα του; Η πατρίδα είναι μάνα μας....δεν μετριέται με τη δύναμη...απλά την κατέκτησαν....

[Smeagol]

No, it's the other way around, Turks have Greek blood.

[Linet]

Linet den eisai ellinida?Kypria eisai?;)

Σοβαρά, αυτό σε παρακαλώ ούτε για πλάκα. Ελληνίδα 100%

[Danishmend]

No, it's the other way around, Turks have Greek blood.
Roman/Rum inhabitants of Anatolia = / = Greeks

[Linet]

Rum = Greek :rose:
Romiosini=Ρωμιοσύνη=Hellenism ...google it.... :wink

[Alphawolf]

pff the turko part is redundant.mongoloid would suffice..

Skase makedonia ine tourkiki ramoto :P

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

Rum (in ottoman empire) means orthodox christian.. bulgars, macedonians even turkish christians were rum according to ottomans..

[Linet]

what is ramoto? food type? :hungry: ?

[wvwvw]

Roman/Rum inhabitants of Anatolia = / = Greeks

Romios =/= Rum Turktard

[Linet]

Rum (in ottoman empire) means orthodox christian.. bulgars, macedonians even turkish christians were rum according to ottomans..

Maybe, but in the Byzantine empire Rum=Greek. Pontics were Rums=Greeks, the others were Serbians, Bulgarians etc...but Rums=Greeks.

[Danishmend]

Romios =/= Rum Turktard

Rum/Urum means "Roman" in Turkish, the term was also used by Seljuk Turks to describe Anatolia, i don't care what it means in your language

[Linet]

The Greeks (Greek: Έλληνες) have been identified by many ethnonyms. The most common native ethnonym is "Hellen" (Ἕλλην), pl. "Hellenes" (Ἕλληνες); the name "Greeks" (Latin: "Graeci") was used by the Ancient Romans and gradually entered the European languages through its use in Latin. The mythological patriarch Hellen is the named progenitor of the Greek peoples; his descendants the Aeolians, Dorians, Achaeans and Ionians correspond to the main Greek tribes and to the main dialects spoken in Greece and Asia Minor (Anatolia). Among his descendants are also mentioned the Graeci and the Makedones.

By Late Antiquity (c. 3rd–7th century CE), the Greeks referred to themselves as Graikoi (Γραικοί, "Greeks") and Rhomaioi/Romioi (Greek: Ῥωμαῖοι/Greek: Ρωμιοί, "Romans") the latter of which was used since virtually all Greeks were Roman citizens after 212 CE. The term "Hellene" became applied to the followers of the polytheistic ("pagan") religion after the establishment of Christianity by Theodosius I.

Romans or Rhomaioi (Ῥωμαῖοι), Romioi (Ρωμιοί), Romios (Ρωμιός) is the name by which the Greeks were known in the Middle Ages and during Ottoman rule.

[Linet]

A d i dont care what it means today to you....During the Othoman times, Rum=Greek....gege? :loco:

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

Maybe, but in the Byzantine empire Rum=Greek. Pontics were Rums=Greeks, the others were Serbians, Bulgarians etc...but Rums=Greeks.


Pontos was very cosmpolite, still those people from pontos/northeast turkey have identical dna. I have seen many results from pontus. They all score similar. I mean georgians,pontic greeks,laz,hemshin,turk(from northeastern turkey) score +/- identical(laz and georgians score little bit more caucasian). It's not because you greeks in greece have intermixed with albanians,venetians,slavs you are now authentic greeks. Maybe you have more euro dna but you are not more greek or pontus was never greek,so you have to decide..

[Linet]

Pontos was very cosmpolite, still those people from pontos/northeast turkey have identical dna. I have seen many results from pontus. They all score similar. I mean georgians,pontic greeks,laz,hemshin,turk(from northeastern turkey) score +/- identical(laz and georgians score little bit more caucasian). It's not because you greeks in greece have intermixed with albanians,venetians,slavs you are now authentic greeks. Maybe you have more euro dna but you are not more greek or pontus was never greek,so you have to decide..

There are no more pure Greek :vikingship: Pontians left in Turkey :nono:
Pontic Greeks are Greeks as much as any Greek :hug2: and are now in Greece :sunny:
....i made a post the other day where i said why...Except if you believe that a Turk in the Ottoman times would become Greek in order to marry :lovebire: a Greek girl and she wouldnt be the one to join the Turkish side....or that a Turk would give his daugher to a Greek...unless he was maybe muslim ....and then again in this case the guy would join the Turkish side....
I really dont care about any Euro dna :stop: .....i am Greek, i care abut Greek dna....:rose:

[wvwvw]

Pontos was very cosmpolite, still those people from pontos/northeast turkey have identical dna. I have seen many results from pontus. They all score similar. I mean georgians,pontic greeks,laz,hemshin,turk(from northeastern turkey) score +/- identical(laz and georgians score little bit more caucasian). It's not because you greeks in greece have intermixed with albanians,venetians,slavs you are now authentic greeks. Maybe you have more euro dna but you are not more greek or pontus was never greek,so you have to decide..

Lol what results have you seen? Of pontics from Abhkasia, Kazachstan, Armenia and Crimea? All those people are recent immigrants from the former Soviet union and have very little to do with Pontic Greeks.

I have never met a Greek who identify as Pontic Greek. If you meet a Greek that calls himself Pontic Is probably from the former Soviet Union and most of them ćome to Greece illegally with false papers and passports.

Show me a dodecad category for Pontic Greeks, peer to peer studies not some random results of unindentified persons.

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

@raine
We have pontic greek results from trabzon, samsun, ordu and giresun. But only the results from trabzon and ordu are relevant because their all four grandparents are from pontus(no mixing with other greeks).

What kazachstan, even pontic greeks from georgia/batumi(once an ottoman territory, ataturk sold it) are not included in our database.

If you believe you believe me, you dont go fuck yourself.

[wvwvw]

Pontos was very cosmpolite, still those people from pontos/northeast turkey have identical dna. I have seen many results from pontus. They all score similar. I mean georgians,pontic greeks,laz,hemshin,turk(from northeastern turkey) score +/- identical(laz and georgians score little bit more caucasian). It's not because you greeks in greece have intermixed with albanians,venetians,slavs you are now authentic greeks. Maybe you have more euro dna but you are not more greek or pontus was never greek,so you have to decide..

Pontus always have been majority Greek

The Turkish name of the city is Trabzon. It is historically known as Trebizond, Trapezund, Tribisonde and Trapezus. In Latin, Trabzon was called Trapezus, which is the latinization of the Ancient Greek Τραπεζοῦς (Trapezous), the first name of the city. (τράπεζα meant "table" in Ancient Greek; note the table on the coin in the figure.) Both in Pontic Greek and Modern Greek, it is called Τραπεζούντα (Trapezounda)

The city was founded as Τραπεζοῦς (Trapezous) by Milesian traders (756 BC). It was one of a number (about ten) of Milesian emporia or trading colonies along the shores of the Black Sea. Others include Sinope, Abydos and Cyzicus (in the Dardanelles). Early banking (money-changing) activity is suggested occurring in the city according to a silver drachma coin from Trapezus in the British Museum, London.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e9/Trapezus.png
A silver Greek drachma Trapezus coin from the 4th century BC

Trebizond's trade partners included the Mossynoeci. When Xenophon and the Ten Thousand mercenaries were fighting their way out of Persia, the first Greek city they reached was Trebizond (Xenophon, Anabasis, 5.5.10). The city and the local Mossynoeci had become estranged from the Mossynoecian capital, to the point of civil war. Xenophon's force resolved this in the rebels' favor, and so in Trebizond's interest.
The city was added to the kingdom of Pontus by Mithridates VI Eupator and it became home port for the Pontic fleet.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Trabzon_walls.JPG
Walls of Trabzon

When the kingdom was annexed to the Roman province of Galatia in 64–65, the fleet passed to new commanders, becoming the Classis Pontica. Trebizond gained importance under Roman rule in the 1st century for its access to roads leading over the Zigana Pass to the Armenian frontier or the upper Euphrates valley. New roads were constructed from Persia and Mesopotamia under the rule of Vespasian, and Hadrian commissioned improvements to give the city a more structured harbor. A mithraeum now serves as a crypt for the church of Panaghia Theoskepastos in nearby Kizlara, east of the citadel and south of the modern harbor. The city was pillaged by the Goths in 258, and, although it was afterwards re-built, Trebizond did not recover until the trade route regained importance in the 8th to 10th centuries; 10th-century Muslim authors note that Trebizond was frequented by Muslim merchants, as the main source transshipping Byzantine silks into eastern Muslim countries.In Byzantine times, the city was the capital of the theme of Chaldia. It was also ruled by Danishmendids between 1080 and 1098.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Byzantine_Greek_Soldiers_Alexander_Manuscript_Thes saly.JPG
A fourteenth-century miniature Greek manuscript depicting Byzantine Greek soldiers from the Empire of Trebizond.

After the Fourth Crusade in 1204, a Byzantine successor state was founded there with support of Queen Tamar of Georgia, the Empire of Trebizond, which ruled part of the Black Sea coast from Trebizond until 1461, when its ruler, David, surrendered to Mehmed II, ruler of the Ottoman Empire. Following this takeover, Mehmed sent many Turkish settlers into the area, but the old ethnic Laz, Armenian, and Greek communities remained. During the late Ottoman period, the city had a great Christian influence in terms of culture, and a wealthy merchant class who created several Western consulates.

Ottoman era

The city became part of the Ottoman Empire after 1461.During Bayezid II's reign, his son, Prince Selim was the sancakbeyi of Trabzon, and his son Suleiman I of the Ottoman Empire was born in Trabzon in 1495. Trabzon became the capital of the Vilayet of Trebizond, that was a vilayet of the north-eastern part of the Ottoman Empire. According to the Ottoman defter, the population of the city in 1523 was a total of 1,473 adult males. Of the total population, 85% was Christian, 1,252 adult males, 13% of the total population was Armenian, 197 adult males and 15% of the total population was Muslim, 221 adult males.
During Ottoman era, Local Chepni and Laz beys were appointed as beylerbey. It is recorded that even some Bosniak beys appointed by Sublime Porte ruled Trabzon as beylerbey. During Ottoman campaign in Europe (16th-17th century), "beylerbeylik" of Trabzon had always sent troops.

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

There are no more pure Greek :vikingship: Pontians left in Turkey :nono:
Pontic Greeks are Greeks as much as any Greek :hug2: and are now in Greece :sunny:
....i made a post the other day where i said why...Except if you believe that a Turk in the Ottoman times would become Greek in order to marry :lovebire: a Greek girl and she wouldnt be the one to join the Turkish side....or that a Turk would give his daugher to a Greek...unless he was maybe muslim ....and then again in this case the guy would join the Turkish side....
I really dont care about any Euro dna :stop: .....i am Greek, i care abut Greek dna....:rose:

no, there are few things you don't know. but nevermind, you believe in whatyou want to believe. I respect that.

[Linet]

We have pontic greek results from trabzon, samsun, ordu and giresun. But only the results from trabzon and ordu are relevant because their all four grandparents are from pontus(no mixing with other greeks).

What kazachstan, even pontic greeks from georgia/batumi(once an ottoman territory, ataturk sold it) are not included in our database.

If you believe you believe me, you dont go fuck yourself.

So you are talking about Pontics of Turkey :fhhorse:? If those people arent Orthodox :fpope:, then no matter if they have Greek roots :sunny:, they are mixed with other Islamic people since the religion barrier wasnt there.
Why the vile language? :icon_neutral:?

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

Why the vile language? :icon_neutral:?

it was meant for raine.

[Linet]

no, there are few things you don't know. but nevermind, you believe in whatyou want to believe. I respect that.

We have a conversation :gossip:
If there are things i dont know :icon_ask:...just tell me :icon_whisper:

[Linet]

it was meant for raine.

She is a girl http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/girls/m0402.gif, men are supposed to be polite to girls even if its not always mutual :eyes

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

We have a conversation :gossip:
If there are things i dont know :icon_ask:...just tell me :icon_whisper:

maybe later

[wvwvw]

So you are talking about Pontics of Turkey :fhhorse:? If those people arent Orthodox :fpope:, then no matter if they have Greek roots :sunny:, they are mixed with other Islamic people since the religion barrier wasnt there.
Why the vile language? :icon_neutral:?

Fact is there is o such thing as Pontic Greek today. There are no Greeks that still identify as Pontic -after 100 years- other than recent immigrants from the former Soviet Union and most of those people aren't even Greeks. Some have only one grandfather Greek but they "buy" false Greek passports to emigrate to Greece. Many among them are pure Georgians and Armenians, other are mixed.

[Linet]

Καληνύχτα http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/sleep/t2211.gif to both Greece :vikingship: and Turkey http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/hourse2-smiley.gif?1292867620 (and everyone else :wave: )


http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/star-plucker-smiley.gif?1292867680

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

Καληνύχτα http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/sleep/t2211.gif to both Greece :vikingship: and Turkey http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/hourse2-smiley.gif?1292867620 (and everyone else :wave: )


http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/star-plucker-smiley.gif?1292867680

http://img05.blogcu.com/v2/images/big/p/r/i/princesssinem/princesssinem_1345384496197.gif

[Linet]

I can give you insider info about this subject, if i trust you. I know even you greeks dont have full-blood pontic/karamanlides results :)

Your persuation starts tommorow http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/crazy-monkey/crazy-monkey-emoticon-205.gif?1292792432

for now....ΚΑΛΗΝΥΧΤΑΑΑΑΑ http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/crazy-monkey/crazy-monkey-emoticon-050.gif?1292792391

[wvwvw]

This is how Turks from Pontos look today:



About Trabzon these days

Hazara community in Trabzon celebrated Nevruz last week.

http://i.imgur.com/b8622JJ.png
http://i.imgur.com/h6sEpQL.png

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

This is how Turks from Pontos look today:

çiktigin deligi sikiyim

watch these videos



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjLwDn5uZw0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZCsYWRu4bI

[wvwvw]

çiktigin deligi sikiyim

watch these videos

No I won't. I'm not interested in watching any retarded Turkish video.

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

She is a girl http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/girls/m0402.gif, men are supposed to be polite to girls even if its not always mutual :eyes

True, but i don't consider raine as a girl. she's more like a googlebot.

[Alphawolf]

çiktigin deligi sikiyim



Arsizin götüne kazik cakmislar, tikirti nerden geliyo demis.

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

hahahahahha

[mourtsouflos]

Rum (in ottoman empire) means orthodox christian.. bulgars, macedonians even turkish christians were rum according to ottomans..

No, according to the Ottomans, Rum=Greek, Bulgar=Bulgarians, Ermeni=Armenians etc. Even Arvanites (Albanian-speaking Christians) were considered a distinct group. In any case, the name "Rum" had been used by the Arabs before the Ottomans and it meant "Greek" (Greek-speaking Byzantine) at least from the 9th century. For example:

"Ibn al-Faqish states that the inhabitants of bilad al-Rum are mostly Rum and Slavs while, according to Al-Masudi, many Rus (Russians) had joined the Rum as had the Armenians, the Bulgars (who are Slavs), the Saqaliba and the Pecheneg (who are Turks)."

So, according to the Arabs, only the Greeks were "Rum" - not the Slavs, Bulgarians, Armenians or other Christian groups that "had joined the Rum".

[wvwvw]

Rum (in ottoman empire) means orthodox christian.. bulgars, macedonians even turkish christians were rum according to ottomans..

LOL who cares how ignorant Turks called us. Turks were a highly unsofisticated people. True budalades. At one point a Turk called his sultanate, sultanate of Rum and gave himself the title Caesar. The whole world laughed at the time so he switched back to Caliph/Caliphate. He then created the Ottoman empire with two administrative divisions, that of the East (Anadolu) and that of the West (Rumeli). What is important is not how Turks called us but how we called ourselves. The world Romios (but also Graikos) had become synonymous with ethnic Greeks long before the arrival of Turks. No other people except the Greeks called themselves Romioi.

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

@mourtsouflos

I'm talking about ottoman turks here

That changed after reforms(19th century).. When we have conquested constantinople (i don't care istanbul or constantinople i actually like the original name more), we used greek patriarchs to keep rebels calm. Those greek speaking priests told bulgars,macedonians that they were greek and should speak greek. Bulgars and other realized after centuries they were not greek. You must hate turks for conquerring europe, we did many things for greekness, believe me.

[Danishmend]

No, according to the Ottomans, Rum=Greek, Bulgar=Bulgarians, Ermeni=Armenians etc. Even Arvanites (Albanian-speaking Christians) were considered a distinct group. In any case, the name "Rum" had been used by the Arabs before the Ottomans and it meant "Greek" (Greek-speaking Byzantine) at least from the 9th century. For example:

"Ibn al-Faqish states that the inhabitants of bilad al-Rum are mostly Rum and Slavs while, according to Al-Masudi, many Rus (Russians) had joined the Rum as had the Armenians, the Bulgars (who are Slavs), the Saqaliba and the Pecheneg (who are Turks)."

So, according to the Arabs, only the Greeks were "Rum" - not the Slavs, Bulgarians, Armenians or other Christian groups that "had joined the Rum".

"bilad-al Rum" = Roman lands
"Rum" = Roman

[wvwvw]

@mourtsouflos

I'm talking about ottoman turks here

That changed after reforms(19th century).. When we have conquested constantinople (i don't care istanbul or constantinople i actually like the original name more),

LOL again..either name is Greek. Do you even know what Istanbul means? Constantinople loomed so large in the consciousness of the Greeks of Asia minor, that they referred to it simply as "the polis" -- "the city." When Turks came to the area and asked "Where does this road lead?" they received as a reply "eis ten polin" -- "to the city." Say that greek phrase fast and in a Turkish accent and you get "Istanbul."

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

LOL who cares how ignorant Turks called us. Turks were a highly unsofisticated people. True budalades. At one point a Turk called his sultanate, sultanate of Rum and gave himself the title Caesar. The whole world laughed at the time so he switched back to Caliph/Caliphate. He then created the Ottoman empire with two administrative divisions, that of the East (Anadolu) and that of the West (Rumeli). What is important is not how Turks called us but how we called ourselves. The world Romios (but also Graikos) had become synonymous with ethnic Greeks long before the arrival of Turks. No other people except the Greeks called themselves Romioi.

Yeah, thats why the pope invited Mehmed the Conqueror to christianity.. Thats why germans invented "byzantine empire" so they were the only heirs of roman empire.

Ottomans never took caliphate, thats bullshit. We just used it as negotation card during treaty of kucuk kaynarca (as protectors of muslim tatars), we also tried to use it during wwI(djihad), but arabs didnt listen to it.

Listen, you or your people never called themself greek anyway not during east roman era. you were greek speaking romans. charlemagne wanted to steal the title of roman emperor, he used the term greek not to honorate your folk but to remember you were (once) and still are the slaves of latin romans.

I know what istanbul means. I also know ottomans used many other words to describe the city like dersaadet, payitaht etc

[wvwvw]

@mourtsouflos

I'm talking about ottoman turks here

That changed after reforms(19th century).. When we have conquested constantinople (i don't care istanbul or constantinople i actually like the original name more), we used greek patriarchs to keep rebels calm. Those greek speaking priests told bulgars,macedonians that they were greek and should speak greek. Bulgars and other realized after centuries they were not greek. You must hate turks for conquerring europe, we did many things for greekness, believe me.

Try again. Slavs had their own patriarchy at Orhid.

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

Ottomans always supported greek church against other movements, thats my point.

Btw, after serbs greeks(some of them islamized, but some not) have fought most for the turks. it'sa good thing :D

[wvwvw]

Listen, you or your people never called themself greek anyway not during east roman era. you were greek speaking romans. charlemagne wanted to steal the title of roman emperor, he used the term greek not to honorate your folk but to remember you were (once) and still are the slaves of latin romans.

I know what istanbul means. I also know ottomans used many other words to describe the city like dersaadet, payitaht etc

Slaves? right :lol: Is that why Romans said "captured greece captured her captor"? What was Roman about the Eastern Roman Empire, the religion? language? culture ? We have historical sources that show that Romans left Greece pretty much alone, and autonomous.

We were so much slaves that we called the Empire Basileia Grecorum.

The Byzantine empire was the ark of the ancient Greek knowledge, the empire had a Greek character, while the official language was the Greek from the 7th century AD.

The name Hellas and Graecia never stopped to be mentioned both in Byzantine and Western documents, While the theme of Hellas was founded at 687 AD.

For the eastern people the Eastern Roman empire was considered as a Greek empire. For the Armenians, Georgians and other people of the near and middle east the byzantines were called as yoni, Javan and yavani, which means Greeks.

In many islamic sources the Byzantine empire is also called Ighrigiyah and yunaniyun. In one passage of the history of Ibn Zabala which was written at 814 AD it is mentioned that the king of the Greeks sent to Αl-Walid help, for the reconstruction of Mohamed's mosque in Medina.

The Arab historian and Geographer Ali al-Mascuch reffering to the period of Emperor Romanus Lekapenus and his policy, he characterizes the empire as homeland of the Greeks and the emperor as king of the Greeks.

Al-Tabari calls the Byzantine emperor as lord of the Greeks.At the same period , the Arab geographer Shams ad Din, also known and as Mukaddasi, writes "we will exclude now the description of Tarsus city and its periphery because for now is at the hand of the Greeks".Tarsus was capured by Emperor Nikiphorus Phokas at 965 AD.

For Pope Gregory the great, Gregory of Tours, Isidore of Seville, Liutprand of Cremona, Paul the Deacon the chronicler of the lombards, wiliam of Tyre and many others the eastern Roman empire was Greek and all the western documents call the empire as Imperium Graecorum which means a Greek empire.

Leo the Mathematecian (790-870 AD) calls himself a Greek through one of poems with the title"To myself who is called Greek" And he describes himself as a modest person who doesnt desire fame or riches.

Already from the 11th century Anna Comnene ("The Alexiad") uses the name Greeks as a national identification for the people of the empire.
Anna Comnene "The Alexiad"

Nicetas Choniates insisted on using the name "Hellenes", he states that he cannot continue in writting history, which is one of the greatest inventions of Hellenism and he stressed out the outrages attacks of the "Latins" against the "Hellenes" in the Peloponessus.
Nicetas Choniates, "The Sack of Constantinople", 9 'Bonn, pp.806

Emperor John III Ducas Vatatzes (1192-1254 AD), wrote in a letter to Pope Gregory IX about the wisdom that "rains upon the Hellenic nation"and states that Constantine's heritage was passed on to the Hellenes, so he argued, and they alone were its inheritors and successors.
John Vatatzes, "Unpublished Letters of Emperor John Vatatzes", Athens I, pp.369--378, (1872)

Theodore II Lascaris (1222-1258), was eager to project the name of the Greeks with true nationalistic zeal. He made it a point that "the Hellenic race looms over all other languages" and that "every kind of philosophy and form of knowledge is a discovery of Hellenes... What do you, O Italian, have to display?"
Theodore Lascaris, "Christian Theology", 7,7 & 8

In the 14th cent AD Nikolaos Kavasilas calls Greeks the scholars of Thessaloniki, and the city as "house of Hellenism". Nicephorus Blemmydes referred to the Byzantine emperors as Hellenes. Theodore Alanias (in 1204) wrote in a letter to his brother that "the homeland may have been captured, but Hellas still exists within every wise man".
Nicephorus Blemmydes, "Pertial narration", 1, 4
Theodore Alanias, "PG 140, 414"

The neo-platonic philosopher George Gemistos Plethon (15th cent AD) stated "We are Hellenes by race and culture".
George Gemistus Plethon, "Paleologeia and Peloponessiaka", pp.247

The scholar, teacher, and translator, John Argyropoulos (15th cent AD) calls John VIII Palaiologos as a Greek king and addresses him as "Sun King of Hellas".
Makrides, Vasilios (2009). Hellenic Temples and Christian Churches: A Concise History of the Religious Cultures of Greece from Antiquity to the Present. New York, New York: New York University Press.

Two days before the fall of Consantinople the Emperor Constantine Paleologos calls the city as "The joy and hope of all Greeks".
Sphrantzes, George (1477). The Chronicle of the Fall.

[StonyArabia]

Rum was used by Arabs to refer to all Europeans. For example Crusaders were also called Rum by some sources well others refer to them as Farangi. In fact the latter is surname of some Lebanese that trace their roots to the Crusaders. That said Rum basically was used for Europeans.

[Scholarios]

Slaves? right :lol: Is that why Romans said "captured greece captured her captor"? What was Roman about the Eastern Roman Empire, the religion? language? culture ? We have historical sources that show that Romans left Greece pretty much alone, and autonomous.

We were so much slaves that we called the Empire Basileia Grecorum.



Well, we were called that. We didn't call ourselves it. That's for sure. For Christ's sake it's even hard to think of an "ethnically Greek" Byzantine Emperor. We were Vasileia Romaion.


The Arab historian and Geographer Ali al-Mascuch reffering to the period of Emperor Romanus Lekapenus and his policy, he characterizes the empire as homeland of the Greeks and the emperor as king of the Greeks.

LOL How many times I tell you- you can't just copy and paste rubbish from online forums. How the hell Al-Mascuch who lived in the 8th Century wrote about an Emperor in the 10th? Rubbish as usual.

Here is what descendants of Byzantines thought, common folk:

«Μια γριά Αντριώτισσα που ήξερε παλιές ιστορίες έλεγε πως οι γενιές των ανθρώπων ήταν τέσσερις. Πρώτα έζησαν οι Δράκοι, έπειτα οι αλλόπιστοι Έλληνες, ύστερα οι Βενετσιάνοι και ύστερα οι Τούρκοι.» (Άνδρος, 19ος αι.)

«Όταν θέλουν να μιλήσουν για κάτι που έγινε σε πολύ παλιά χρόνια, χρησιμοποιούν την έκφραση "από τον καιρό των Ελλήνων"». (Σφακιά, 19ος αι.)

Από διάλογο ενός περιηγητή με μια γριά εκκλησιάρισσα στην Τσαριτσάνη Τυρνάβου (19ος αι.):

«Τι, φώναξε, εσύ δεν πιστεύεις για τους Έλληνες πως έζησαν; Μα ήταν γίγαντες, τόσο ψηλοί, που όταν έπεφταν, δε μπορούσαν πια να σηκωθούν, γι' αυτό και χάθηκαν». Καθώς δεν έδειχνα να την πιστεύω, η γριά συνέχισε: «Αυτοί οι Έλληνες ήταν πιο παλιοί από τον Αδάμ. Στα χρόνια εκείνα ζούσαν και άνθρωποι τόσο μικροί, που όταν έπεφταν μέσα στο φαγητό τους, την πάθαιναν σαν τις μύγες, όταν πέφτουν μέσα σε λίγο γάλα. Έτσι χάθηκαν και αυτοί. Είτε το πιστεύεις είτε όχι, μια φορά όλα τούτα που σού λέω τα βρίσκεις στο Ευαγγέλιο!»

«Στα χρόνια τα παλιά ζούσαν στα μέρη αυτά άλλης λογής άνθρωποι, οι Έλληνες. Αυτοί έχτισαν το κάστρο μας. Τις μεγάλες βαριές πέτρς που βλέπεις εκεί τις κουβαλούσαν με τα χέρια τους. Οι Έλληνες δεν έμοιαζαν με τους σημερινούς ανθρώπους. Ήταν ψηλοί σαν τα κυπαρίσσια». (Θεσπρωτία, 20ος αι.)

«Οι Έλληνες χαθήκαν όλοι όταν κάποτ' έπεσε πείνα μεγάλη στη γη. Τότε καθένας τους έπαιρνε λίγες τροφές και έμπαινε στον τάφο του, για να βρεθεί θαμμένος, όταν οι τροφές του θα τελείωναν και θα πέθαινε». (Σφακιά, 20ος αι.)

«Παλιόν καιρό οι-γι-αθρώποι ήταν πολύ μεγάλοι. Μεγαλύτεροι απ' όλους ήταν οι Ελλένηδες. Αυτοί ήταν κακοί αθρώποι. Γι' αυτό ο Θεός έστειλε κάτι κουνούπια μεγάλα με μύτες σιδερένιες και τους κυνήγαγαν». (Ήπειρος)

[mourtsouflos]

"bilad-al Rum" = Roman lands
"Rum" = Roman

We know that "Rum" = Roman. Do you know that "Roman" = Greek from the 10th century and on? I repeat: the Ottomans also used the term to refer to the Greek-speaking population - not to other Christian groups.

[mourtsouflos]

Rum was used by Arabs to refer to all Europeans. For example Crusaders were also called Rum by some sources well others refer to them as Farangi. In fact the latter is surname of some Lebanese that trace their roots to the Crusaders. That said Rum basically was used for Europeans.

Here is how the Arabs initially confused the Franks with the "Rum" (Byzantine Greeks):

"Occasionally, and especially during the early period of the Crusades, the term al-Rum is used to refer to the Franks, reflecting the initial confusion of the Arab Muslim authors at this new Christian presence, especially since the Crusaders arrived along routes previously used by the Byzantine invaders … However, as time passed, the new term al-Ifranj was coined to refer to the Franks, in recognition of the emerging distinction between Byzantines and Crusaders. Indeed, it did not take long for a new image of the Ifranj, dissociated from that of the Byzantines, to emerge. Nevertheless, both terms, Ifranj and Rum, were sometimes used to designate Christians in general.”

("Byzantium Viewed by the Arabs", page 192)

[Queen B]

Lol what results have you seen? Of pontics from Abhkasia, Kazachstan, Armenia and Crimea? All those people are recent immigrants from the former Soviet union and have very little to do with Pontic Greeks.
I have never met a Greek who identify as Pontic Greek. If you meet a Greek that calls himself Pontic Is probably from the former Soviet Union and most of them ćome to Greece illegally with false papers and passports.

This.
I have several friends of Pontic ancestry, of which I learn after discussing where our grandparents are from. Noone said directly ''hey I'm Pontian'', even in cases where all 4 grandparents were Pontic. On the other hand I have met people who said they were Pontics, and they were 7 out of 10 ''Rossopontics'', and the rest Georgians.

Skase makedonia ine tourkiki ramoto :P
Where is the article? What is ramoto?

[HellLander87]

Xylo kai vrisimo stous tourkous.Ti katheste kai anoigete kouventa?;)

[Queen B]

Xylo kai vrisimo stous tourkous.Ti katheste kai anoigete kouventa?;)
Giati eimaste pio politismenoi apo autous?

[HellLander87]

Rum mean Anatolian. Anatolia; Diyar i Rum
welcome my friend sultan mahmut.

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

welcome my friend sultan mahmut.

King midas is a troll, he's probably armenian.

[HellLander87]

King midas is a troll, he's probably armenian.
The best turk at ta is a troll?wtf
;)

[Linet]

watch these videos

Nice videos http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/girl8-smiley.gif?1292867607


Arsizin götüne kazik cakmislar, tikirti nerden geliyo demis.

I have no clue what you say... but i have the strong urge to tell you to get lost http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smileys/kicked-out-smiley.gif?1292867628


@mourtsouflos

I'm talking about ottoman turks here

That changed after reforms(19th century).. When we have conquested constantinople (i don't care istanbul or constantinople i actually like the original name more), we used greek patriarchs to keep rebels calm. Those greek speaking priests told bulgars,macedonians that they were greek and should speak greek. Bulgars and other realized after centuries they were not greek. You must hate turks for conquerring europe, we did many things for greekness, believe me.

Thats so crazy :loco: that i am speechless http://yoursmiles.org/msmile/wonder/m1809.gif
...Bulgarians and Serbians had their own church since Byzantine times :fpope: ....and definately nobody considered them Greeks http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/no/t26146.gif


Yeah, thats why the pope invited Mehmed the Conqueror to christianity.. Thats why germans invented "byzantine empire" so they were the only heirs of roman empire.

Ottomans never took caliphate, thats bullshit. We just used it as negotation card during treaty of kucuk kaynarca (as protectors of muslim tatars), we also tried to use it during wwI(djihad), but arabs didnt listen to it.

Listen, you or your people never called themself greek anyway not during east roman era. you were greek speaking romans. charlemagne wanted to steal the title of roman emperor, he used the term greek not to honorate your folk but to remember you were (once) and still are the slaves of latin romans.


RomEoi = Romans, RomIoi=Greeks.... and you are right...you just confirm our point ....We were known as Romioi, that was our name :rose:....and that name was reffered to the Christians that were ethnically Greeks....Albanians, Serbians, Bulgarians had their own names....:blah:
The Eastern Roman empire transformed to a Greek empire :biggrin...and who said we hold any respect for the pope :dev ?



Ottomans always supported greek church against other movements, thats my point.

Btw, after serbs greeks(some of them islamized, but some not) have fought most for the turks. it'sa good thing :D

What do you mean? :eusa_eh:

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

Nice videos


What do you mean? :eusa_eh:

Serbs and greeks were loyal to ottoman empire until the ottomans weakened and russian expansion in balkan has started. Other people were loyal too, but those two people were most important (after turks ofcourse) and also have fought for ottomans. Serbs never backstabbed Bayezid during the battle of ankara, while even other turkish principalities chose timur's (other turkic ruler) side. There were important greek families who helped ottomans estabilishing its power(palaiologos). But much more important: those who conquested balkans were mainly greeks(evrenosogullari, mihalogullari), most of them became muslims but some older members of the family remained as christians . In the end, after years they all became muslims.

[HellLander87]

But much more important: those who conquested balkans were mainly greeks(evrenosogullari, mihalogullari), most of them became muslims but some older members of the family remained as christians . In the end, after years they all became muslims.
Most of them would have been Albanians.

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

Most of them would have been Albanians.

Could be, i think they were greek. In reality evrenosogullari(evrenos) were the most important non-turkic akincis (raiders), mihalogullari (michael) and malkacogullari (malkovic) followed them. But in turkish cinema/tv show there are lots of movies made about the malkacogullari (which were serbian in origin, but hardcore ottomans). I think there is a malkacoglu in that soap about suleiman the magnificent.

[HellLander87]

Could be, i think they were greek. In reality evrenosogullari(evrenos) were the most important non-turkic akincis (raiders), mihalogullari (michael) and malkacogullari (malkovic) followed them. But in turkish cinema/tv show there are lots of movies made about the malkacogullari (which were serbian in origin, but hardcore ottomans). I think there is a malkacoglu in that soap about suleiman the magnificent.
I searched a bit now.Evrenos family was the continuation of the Byzantine Ouranos family but anyway these were just some powerfull families.
At Balkans the landowners that got turkicized were mostly Albanians.

[Scholarios]

Many Greeks among Turkish pirates and Ottoman Navy- that's for sure.

Even Christian Greeks among Turkish Army at Gallipoli of course.

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

Many Greeks among Turkish pirates and Ottoman Navy- that's for sure.

Even Christian Greeks among Turkish Army at Gallipoli of course.

True, they are our immortal heroes.

[Linet]

Serbs and greeks were loyal to ottoman empire until the ottomans weakened and russian expansion in balkan has started. Other people were loyal too, but those two people were most important (after turks ofcourse) and also have fought for ottomans. Serbs never backstabbed Bayezid during the battle of ankara, while even other turkish principalities chose timur's (other turkic ruler) side. There were important greek families who helped ottomans estabilishing its power(palaiologos). But much more important: those who conquested balkans were mainly greeks(evrenosogullari, mihalogullari), most of them became muslims but some older members of the family remained as christians . In the end, after years they all became muslims.

Ok, i have to admit i have no idea of the facts and the people you are talking about http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/confused-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862495 so i cant have opinion or even reply http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/raccoon/wating-raccoon-emoticon.gif?1302774080.
But, arent those people traitors anyway? I mean you tell me at first they fougth against their own people http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/crazy-rabbit/kill-crazy-rabbit-emoticon.gif?1292793771 and later on became muslims.....http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/crazy-monkey/crazy-monkey-emoticon-048.gif?1292792391
Palaiologos? That i dont believe....Palaiologos died and fought till his last breath for the empire .

[HellLander87]

Many Greeks among Turkish pirates and Ottoman Navy- that's for sure.

Even Christian Greeks among Turkish Army at Gallipoli of course.
Many christians of all "nationalities" had to serve at the Ottoman army.They were known usually as Vojniks(slavic for warrior).
Edit:I mean at the "early" years of the ottoman empire.

[Linet]

So Ice are you going to tell me the facts you know about Pontians? :eyes

[Petros Houhoulis]

@mourtsouflos

I'm talking about ottoman turks here

That changed after reforms(19th century).. When we have conquested constantinople (i don't care istanbul or constantinople i actually like the original name more), we used greek patriarchs to keep rebels calm. Those greek speaking priests told bulgars,malakedonians that they were greek and should speak greek. Bulgars and other realized after centuries they were not greek. You must hate turks for conquerring europe, we did many things for greekness, believe me.

The problem with you stupid Turks is that you remain stupid Turks and have absolutely no idea about what you are writing.

The story is basically as follows: Neither the Ottoman nor the Roman empire were based upon etnicities, they were based upon religions. Neither tried to support a specific ethnicity against another except when they were collapsing.

The Ottomans actually tried to have a centralized administration of the Orthodox church, but Gennadios Scholarios rejected the "offer" and thus the Patriarchate of Nis and the archbishopic of Achrida (among others) retained their powers.

When the Russian-Ottoman wars threatened to bring down the Ottoman empire, the Sultans thought to weaken the pan-Slavic movement by granting all power to the Patriarch by eliminating the two ecclesiastic institutions mentioned above. This supposedly strengthened the Greek element because the patriarchate of Constantinople was more Greek-dominated, but not so much really. The most archbishops of the archbishopic of Achrida were still Greeks for example, as long as it lasted!

This didn't work either, because the strengthening of the Greek element resulted to the Greek revolution and the subsequent execution of Patriarch Gregory V, but it was pointless. The Ottoman empire was rotten to the core and it did never thrive in anything beyond war and... Gardening, after all...

You did much less for Greekness compared to what Greeks did for you. Your Ottoman troops could not pass into Europe because they had no navy. A Greek bastard brought you to the Balkans as mercenaries against the Serbs, and we have been regretting it ever since...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Pontos was very cosmpolite, still those people from pontos/northeast turkey have identical dna. I have seen many results from pontus. They all score similar. I mean georgians,pontic greeks,laz,hemshin,turk(from northeastern turkey) score +/- identical(laz and georgians score little bit more caucasian). It's not because you greeks in greece have intermixed with albanians,venetians,slavs you are now authentic greeks. Maybe you have more euro dna but you are not more greek or pontus was never greek,so you have to decide..

Pontus was half Greek for more than 2.000 years - and so was all of modern Turkey. Get used to it, the Ancient Greeks who lived in Turkey shall always be more famous than you Turks will ever be!

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

I searched a bit now.Evrenos family was the continuation of the Byzantine Ouranos family but anyway these were just some powerfull families.
At Balkans the landowners that got turkicized were mostly Albanians.

They were very powerful families. They practically conquested balkans and gave it to the ottomans.

Albanians were mostly janissaries, janissaries are a product of turkish education, their background doesn't matter.We were once mercenaries of arabs (memluks/caliphate). we knew how to apply this system. this was also a movement from ottomans against other turkic clans, there was a chandarli clan, richer and more powerful than ottoman empire,he was even more powerfull than the sultan who took istanbul.

Back to akincis , those 'raiders' are different. They are freeborn,noble men. You can't compare them with janissaries(sultans property). Janissaries had also powers like only sultan could decide about their lives, there were also some restrictions, janisarries were not allowed to have a beard. In islamic world beard was very very important, it was a sign of power/aristocracy. You have to remember, those akincis were mostly important during 14-15-16 and 17th century, when ottoman emprie was very powerful, maybe the most powerful empire in the world (15-16th century). You can imagine how rich, how many wives (islamic law says 4 noble women, unlimited slaves) and good life they had..Still they were raiders, very dangerous and brave lifestyle.

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

So Ice are you going to tell me the facts you know about Pontians? :eyes

What do you want to know. Pontians are genetically native to northeastern turkey. Before turks/east roman empire persians had great influence over pontics(satrapy), their genetic influence is limited though.

[Inti]

I can never tell apart Turks, Greeks and Albanians. They all are hairy and swarthy. The only Europeans are Slavs on the Balkans.

[HellLander87]

Europa je Grecia,cunts.

[Inti]

Europa je Grecia,cunts.

Plenty of blacks and north Africans are living in France. And France isn't Africa.

[HellLander87]

Plenty of blacks and north Africans are living in France. And France isn't Africa.
:picard1:I won't blame your black admixture for your idiocy.You were just unlucky.

[Inti]

:picard1:I won't blame your black admixture for your idiocy.You were just unlucky.

A typical reply from a middle easterner. ;)

[Linet]

What do you want to know. Pontians are genetically native to northeastern turkey. Before turks/east roman empire persians had great influence over pontics(satrapy), their genetic influence is limited though.

I thought you said you had facts http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/forum/t1252.gif ...what you say now is what Turks spam again and again anyway :blah:

[Mortimer]

i think they do and not only from turks but also from pre-turkish anatolian populations and from northafrica etc. greece is a crossroads in the meditteranean and continental europe, i think they also have germanic blood and slavic blood etc. the dorians have been nordid people who moved from northeurope to greece after the greek dark ages

[wvwvw]

i think they do and not only from turks but also from pre-turkish anatolian populations and from northafrica etc. greece is a crossroads in the meditteranean and continental europe, i think they also have germanic blood and slavic blood etc. the dorians have been nordid people who moved from northeurope to greece after the greek dark ages

How much Turkish blood do you have?

[wvwvw]

i think they do and not only from turks but also from pre-turkish anatolian populations and from northafrica etc. greece is a crossroads in the meditteranean and continental europe, i think they also have germanic blood and slavic blood etc. the dorians have been nordid people who moved from northeurope to greece after the greek dark ages

There's no evidence for such a thing

Dorus, the son of Hellen, wandered around Greece with a group of people.
He then settled in that place in central Greece which was named Dryopis and he later crossed in Peloponnese and his people became known as Dorians. Dryopis was hence renamed to Doris. Apollodorus mentions just that Dorus occupied the area of Doris and renamed its people to Dorians.

There was a small area in central Greece called Doris

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Ancient_Greek_Northern_regions.png

Greeks=Pelasgians= indigenous to Greece.

When Solon had gone to Egypt, the Egyptian priests told him about the terrible earthquakes in Greece and the disaster of the Greek nation which lived in Greece 9,000 years before that time and that the Athenian civilization and culture was much older than the Egyptian one.

According to this, the Greeks were indigenous, didn't come to Greece from northern Europe, all the tribes in Greece, the Pelasgians etc were greek and that after the sinkage of Aegeis , the some Greeks managed to survive on the top of the mountains of Aegeis which are the present islands of Aegean. Because of their necessity to communicate with the other Greeks they developed the navigation and they rebuilt the Aegean civilisation. Crete was the dominant, the Cretans and the other Greeks spread their culture around Mediterranean.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVvkNEy-9vw

One answer whether Greeks are indigenous or not, is giving Isocrates in Panegyricus.

"For we did not become dwellers in this land by driving others out of it, nor by finding it uninhabited, nor by coming together here a motley horde composed of many races; but we are of a lineage so noble and so pure that throughout our history we have continued in possession of the very land which gave us birth, since we are sprung from its very soil and are able to address our city by the very names which we apply to our nearest kin;"

http://www.bakeru.edu/faculty/jrichards/World%20Civ%20I/E-Source%2010-Isocrates.htm

Ancient Greeks considered the Pelasgians Greek and I really have difficulties understanding why we can't accept it? Why would anyone and especially people as strong-opinioned and proud of their heritage, not to mention purists and quite chauvinist at that, like the Greeks in antiquity claim an ancestry that's not theirs? It's not like today, when some ethnic groups need to facilitate claims on land or other benefits they had the land and nobody could drive them out. Why state, in the most profound and decisive way, that the Pelasgians (as in: the pre-Mycenaean inhabitants of Greece) are Greek. Certain city states, like the Athenians, claim direct ancestry from the Pelasgians and pride over the purity of the Pelasgic blood!

The first culture of we have written records from in the Greek area, is the Mycenaean. So, we just do not know if the previous cultures were Greek-speaking (whatever Greek was back then) or not. We just have nothing to base any sort of assumptions on this.

What we do have though is this: the archaeological findings. Those point out in the most decisive manner that there is no great, earthshaking discontinuity in the development of the culture in the Helladic area, at least not after the Mesolithic area. From 6.000 BC on we have a more or less consistent continuity, culminating in the Mycenaean culture and then we have a drawback (mostly we assume its a drawback because there is lack of adequate written sources) for 2-3 centuries, before the city-states picked up the rabble of the Palace culture and continue into what we've learned to be the Greek culture.

The archaeological evidence for this is extremely concise and decisive. The chance to have a mass-scale invasion (or "invasion") of Greek-speaking tribes in a non-Greek speaking land (as the migration theories suggest) are very, very slim in the times past Mesolithic.

The Doric migration has more recently been recognized as a shifting of population from parts of the Helladic area into other parts of the same land. The Dorian have not descended from somewhere far north, but as every piece of evidential material tells us, they were living among the Myceneans in the same timeframe. Probably, the "Doric invasion" should be more accurately described as "the Doric uprising". They did cause the fall of the palace culture by this uprise and established their supremacy at areas formerly Achaean (Peloponese, Crete, Doris).

There is clearly a very strong argument in favour of the cataclysm whatever that was. Cultures from all over the world have a tradition of a cataclysm and they are really not connected to each other (Greeks, Hebrew, Hopi Indians, Indians of India aboriginal cultures in the south-eastern Asia, south Africa and many, many more). Most scientists date the cataclysm to the period of the ice melting, 10.000 years ago. Thats pretty concise with Plato's (actually: the Egyptians) dating.

AUTOXTHONES ESMEN (we are autochthonous)... as they used to say

It is clear that the Hellenes considered the Pelasgians nothing but a part of the Hellinic 'race'. While many modern scholars tend to base their arguments on Herodotus' text that mentions a probable difference in language, they conveniently overlook the fact that in his book :
1 chap 58 he clearly mentions :

"But the Hellenic stock, it seems clear to me, has always had the same language since its beginning; yet being, when separated from the Pelasgians"

So the simple question to be asked is if they had no connection what so ever, why would he speak of separation?

A second question would be: why overlook this, that is a clear statement attributed as fact and instead base all argument on what he clearly states are mere speculations?

We could also look up Dionysus of Halikarnassos that tells us in his Roman Antiquities 1:17:

"for the Pelasgians, too, were a Greek nation originally from the Peloponnesus."

As to the Hellines believing they were autochthonous we have many such accounts in texts, some of many examples.

Aeschylus Hiketides (Suppliants)

For I am Pelasgus, offspring of Palaechthon, whom the earth brought forth, and lord of this land; and after me, their king, is rightly named the race of the Pelasgi, who harvest the land. Of all the region through which the pure. Strymon flows, on the side toward the setting sun, I am the lord. There lies within the limits of my rule the land of the Perrhaebi, the parts beyond Pindus close to the Paeonians, and the mountain ridge of Dodona; the edge of the watery sea borders my kingdom. I rule up to these boundaries.

Note Palaechthon paleo= old and cthonios =under/from the ground

Eurypides ION 589:

It is said that the famous Athenians are natives of the land, not a foreign race,

The exact word used is autochthonos

Which is why the Athenians as Thukydides tells us in 2:85:

"and fastening a knot of their hair with a tie of golden grasshoppers, a fashion which spread to their Ionian kindred, and long prevailed among the old men there."

The golden grasshopper or the cicada was worn by the Athenians as a symbol of their autochthonous origin even before the time of Solon because they considered the cicada's to have sprung from the earth just as their forefathers did

Dionysus of Halikarnassos in his Roman antiquities 1:17

"For they first lived in the neighbourhood of the Achaean Argos, as it is now called, being natives of the country,"

The word in the original text is 'autochthones", translated as "natives"

Greeks of classic times considered the Pelasgians of the same race not a barbarian tribe.

Some historians didn't consider the Acheans and Ionians, Greeks before the decipherment of the Linear B and they named Greeks only the Dorians.

Aeshyllus and Dionysius of Hallicarnasus considered Pelasgians as Greeks. First they resided in Thessalia and Epirus thus why Thessalia was named also as Pelasgiotis, just like Greece was called Pelasgia. Another name of Thessaly is Argos Pelasgikon. The island of Delos was also called Asteria and Pelasgia.

Strabo wrote that Dorians and Aeolians were of Pelasgian stock. Herodotus makes no distinction between Aeolians and Dorians but underlines that Aeolians are Pelasgians.

Dorians in general were considered to be Pelasgians and plus they were saying so by themselves.

Ionians used to reside to Peloponissos, where its known as Achaia and before the arrival of Danaos and Ksouthos they were called Pelasgians Aigialeis. They were renamed as Ionians from Ion, son of Ksouthos.

The Atheneans while the area known today as Modern Greece was under Pelasgians, they were Pelasgians called Kranaoi, and during the reign of Kekrops they were know as Kekropidae. Later during Erehtheus they were named Atheneans.

[wvwvw]

So there was clearly no Doric "invasion".

The definition of the word is: "Invasion is a military action consisting of troops entering a foreign land"

The land was by no means foreign to the Heraklides, so invasion is obviously the wrong term to be used. We are not talking about one of the other minor tribes trying to invade Peloponessos but the very people that claimed to be autochthons.

The Heraklides, were Dorian stock, but only they were the rightfull heirs to the throne, not all the Dorians, which is why we find only the Herklides being driven out of Achaia and later, only they being 'appointed' to the kingdoms..

Colin Renfrew suggested that the Greek language developed in the Aegean region over a long period of time beginning during the late neolithic era

http://www.webofstories.com/play/18221

[Petros Houhoulis]

Linet, no matter how many times you repeat the argument that you, Pontic or Cypriot Greeks have no foreign admixture at all, it doesn't make that any less funny when it comes to genetic. Pontic Greeks, for example, are genetically much more closer to Laz people than to mainland Greeks. And Cypriots to Lebanese. There are some differences even between Northern and Southern Greeks.

...And in the end of the day, modern Turks are only <13% Turkic, in terms of genetics...

[Danishmend]

...And in the end of the day, modern Turks are only <13% Kyrgyz, in terms of genetics...

fixed

To obtain a more representative sampling from Central Asia, Kyrgyz samples (Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan) were genotyped and analysed.

[random]

The Kindgom of pontus had a lot of cultural & genetic Iranic influence + Caucasian influence. Mithridates VI of Pontus was of Greek & Persian ancestry.
Mithra is the Zoroastrian(Iranic) angelic divinity, Mithra was more important in Pontus than greek gods.

[Mortimer]

There's no evidence for such a thing



ok thats how i learnt it in school, that dorians came from northeurope, but thanks for new info.

[Petros Houhoulis]

fixed

Keep hallucinating. There was no Turkish people or language in modern Turkey until around a millenium ago. The original Turkish people lived in Central Asia, and no local people or culture were related to the Turkish until that time.

Do not delude yourself. The Anatolian people are not genetically Turkic...

[Petros Houhoulis]

The Kindgom of pontus had a lot of cultural & genetic Iranic influence + Caucasian influence. Mithridates VI of Pontus was of Greek & Persian ancestry.
Mithra is the Zoroastrian(Iranic) angelic divinity, Mithra was more important in Pontus than greek gods.

I second this.

[Petros Houhoulis]

ok thats how i learnt it in school, that dorians came from northeurope, but thanks for new info.

Do not believe her. The Dorians came from the North, perhaps even Ukraine...

[Annihilus]

Keep hallucinating. There was no Turkish people or language in modern Turkey until around a millenium ago. The original Turkish people lived in Central Asia, and no local people or culture were related to the Turkish until that time.

Do not delude yourself. The Anatolian people are not genetically Turkic...

You go in mud with this line of though. World is not static, being turkic is not either, it is dynamic.

[Danishmend]

Keep hallucinating. There was no Greek people or language in modern Greece until around a few thousand years ago. The original Indo-European people lived in Pontic-Caspian steppe, and no local people or culture were related to the Indo-European until that time.

Do not delude yourself. The Greek people are not genetically Indo-European...

fixed

[Petros Houhoulis]

You go in mud with this line of though. World is not static, being turkic is not either, it is dynamic.

He talks genetics to me, I reply with genetics to him. I never said that genetics matter so much though...

[Petros Houhoulis]

fixed

Oops, not really!

The Greek people invaded Greece around 4.000 years ago, they still constitute the 1/4 of the modern Greek population and they have incorporated pre-Greek elements in the Greek language.

The Turkic people invaded Turkey 1.000 years ago, they constitute only the 1/8 of the modern Turkish population and they have more Persian and Arabic than pre-Turkish elements in their language (if at all)

Of course, the major difference between the two is that the Greek culture has contributed the most compared to any other culture to the human race and civilization, while the Turks have contributed the most bloodshed and misery to the human race and civilization, and no real advancements to be proud of...

[Annihilus]

He talks genetics to me, I reply with genetics to him. I never said that genetics matter so much though...

Genetics? who was talking about genetics?

told you about the mud

[alb0zfinest]

I can never tell apart Turks, Greeks and Albanians. They all are hairy and swarthy. The only Europeans are Slavs on the Balkans.

Lol. Not only is what you said bs, but its quite ironic too since slavs were the invaders having been the last to come.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Genetics? who was talking about genetics?

told you about the mud

The thread title is "Do Greeks have "Turkish" blood?" Obviously it is a thread about genetics, not a thread about culture or identity...

[Inti]

Lol. Not only is what you said bs,

Really?


but its quite ironic too since slavs were the invaders having been the last to come.

Doesn't change my statement about only Europeans in the Balkans are Slavs. Europe was defined by Christianity, and Albos are not Christian. Greeks are genetically very distant from the rest of Europeans in comparison to Balkan Slavs. That makes Slavs to be the only Europeans on the Balkans. So , sheesh.

[Queen B]

Doesn't change my statement about only Europeans in the Balkans are Slavs. Europe was defined by Christianity, and Albos are not Christian. Greeks are genetically very distant from the rest of Europeans in comparison to Balkan Slavs. That makes Slavs to be the only Europeans on the Balkans. So , sheesh.
:bored:

[alb0zfinest]

Really?



Doesn't change my statement about only Europeans in the Balkans are Slavs. Europe was defined by Christianity, and Albos are not Christian. Greeks are genetically very distant from the rest of Europeans in comparison to Balkan Slavs. That makes Slavs to be the only Europeans on the Balkans. So , sheesh.

Yes, it seems to be so.

Europe is not defined by christianity. Europeans merely adopted christianity, Christianity is just as foreign to Europe as Islam. Adopting something from elsewhere,regardless of how long you've had it does not make it yours.

But lets say I go along with this very flawed claim, what about atheists from Britain for instance, are they not European? or Swedes who are 80%-90% atheist are they not European either?
You are also forgetting that christianity has had different amounts of influences on different european countries, for some it has been very minimal to the point where you can't really regard them as culturally Christian, for the culture of that country prior to christianity dominates.

But lets say hypothetically that every European country and every person in them except Albania is Christian, Albanians are extremely irreligious people. Islam has had practically no influence on Albanian culture, what has remained is the culture of Albanian tribes prior to Ottoman invasion. Now you can't really say they are culturally foreign to Europe, because their culture is not defined by Islam.

So what do you have left now? You can still say although islam hasn't had an impact on Albanian culture, Albanians still believe in a different god, now I can point out to the reality of the situation in Albania which is that people just believe in god, it isn't so much a particular one, they just say muslim, because their parents identified as such, but going back to my prior argument, you have Swedes that have no gods are they not European either because they don't worship Jesus either?

And then you also have Albanian catholics and Albanians who are orthodox, They are Christian and going by your claim they should be considered European right?
But what if I told you that these Albanian Christians don't define themselves based on their religion, rather they define themselves on their Albanian ethnicity, culture and traditions, so then what is the difference between a Christian Albanian and a Muslim one seeing that they care 10 times more about their ethnicity than their religion? pretty much nothing. So if you are going to consider the Christians as European you should for the muslim ones as well, and if you don't consider the christian ones as Europeans then you should consider the muslim ones as European either.

Also at one point before the ottoman invasion all Albanians were catholic, so they were European once, and now they aren't? :D
or during communism every Albanian was an atheist, so again at one point they are European going by your claim and then suddenly they are not? Lol.

[Trun]

The next one who says "Slavs are invaders on the Balkans" will have a "500 thumbs down" ultimate prize.

[Scholarios]

Really?



Doesn't change my statement about only Europeans in the Balkans are Slavs. Europe was defined by Christianity, and Albos are not Christian. Greeks are genetically very distant from the rest of Europeans in comparison to Balkan Slavs. That makes Slavs to be the only Europeans on the Balkans. So , sheesh.

That logic makes no sense. Greeks are distant compared to Slavs?

First of all, Greeks aren't so distant from Balkan Slavs. In fact, some are identical.

Second - and French are distant compared to Norwegians so does it mean French aren't Europeans?

This must be troll bait ... No one is that dumb.

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

The next one who says "Slavs are invaders on the Balkans" will have a "500 thumbs down" ultimate prize.

Bulgars are invaders, no?

[Inti]

Yes, it seems to be so.

Europe is not defined by christianity. Europeans merely adopted christianity, Christianity is just as foreign to Europe as Islam. Adopting something from elsewhere,regardless of how long you've had it does not make it yours.

Do you consider Turks European? Probably not. Ever questioned why Finns, Hungarians, Estonians — speakers of non IE language — are considered European , while Turks are not? Christianity defined Europe which most scholars agree up on. Basically, Albos are in the same boat with the Turks.

[Linet]

http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/relax1-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862517

[Hayalet]

i am Libyan
Fixed.

[Alphawolf]

i am Anatolian and i am not greek. My history is 10.000 years old, Greek are younger than us . i dont greeks because they massacred innocent Anatolians. if i find the videos i will send. The survivor telling how greek come and killed innocent Anatolians.

Anatolians arent greek! We Anatolians dont like kafir greeks

:D

[wvwvw]

i am Anatolian and i am not greek. My history is 10.000 years old, Greek are younger than us . i dont greeks because they massacred innocent Anatolians. if i find the videos i will send. The survivor telling how greek come and killed innocent Anatolians.

Anatolians arent greek! We Anatolians dont like kafir greeks

Of course an Iranogypsy like you is not Greek. Eastern Anatolia has always been traditionally inhabited by Iranid, Kurdish, Assyrid and Armenids.

Greek colonists and settlers had nothing to do with those races. Although they assimilated some Galatians (Gallo-Greci), Thracians and other tribes, they were never absorbed by others. Those tribes assimilated in the far greatest Greek pool, and by the time of the Romans they were already Hellenized, and remained so. Eastern Anatolia never become Hellenized, Armenians, Assyrians, Kurds, Iranians all retained their their language and culture, although at certain periods Greek was the international language, it was never forced on anyone. Everyone was free to speak their native language and keep culture.

Greeks never massacred any Anatolian you ahistorical ignorant fool. That's what your murderous race did. Like the British ambassador to Turkey said, it wasn't just a case of Muhammendism but a combination of a murderous race and Islam.

Don't pretend to have anything to do with Ancient Anatolians idiot. Hittites had gone extict already by 1500 BC. Thracians were non existant when Turks came, they were known as Bulgarians and ThracoGreeks.


My history is 10.000 years old, Greek are younger than us

Stop distorting history for your own benefit budala. Your history is hardly 1000 years old. An army of different ethnic groups have paraded in Anatolia from 10,000 BC. Some were completely annihilated and vanished (like the Hittites), others were absorbed by new invading newcomers. Your relation to ancient Anatolians is basically non-existant that is also why you have ZERO linguistic, folkoric, historical ties or anything that connects you to them. You speak Turkish and identify as Turkish and you are the offspring of some newcomer syro-iranid race.

Greeks on the other hand have tangible, linguistic, historical and folkoric ties that connects them to the same people that lived in the region 4000 years ago. Ancient Greeks were proud of their Pelasgic ancestry. They have tombs, monuments and documents that can actually show their connection to them and go as far back as the cataclysm of Deukalion, that is 9000 BC.

Not all Anatolia was Greek, but Greeks colonized certain areas and founded colonies there, that were complete functional countries with army and all, no different than in the modern sense of the word. There are no documents that show that Greeks ever ceased existing or vanishing or being absorbed into other populations as was the case with Hittites and other Anatolian ethnic groups.

Greeks were the dominant race the conqueror, so they never vanished. You have basically zero Greek ancestry, most of it is Iranian, Kurdish and Armenian. It is true that some Pontic Greeks were Islamized but compared to the far greater Turkish population their number is a drop in the ocean. Even gypsies are multiple times the number of Greeks that were assimilated in Turkey (some 3 million). There are historical documents where you can find which village where converted to Islam, and Ottoman records show that the number of Greeks that converted to Islam was in fact quite small.

[Arch Hades]

So is anyone going to post some scientific/genetic data to prove Greeks are Turkish/Ottoman admixted?
I've seen 40+ pages of opinions pulled out of peoples' rears and not much more.

[Linet]

You are dumb compared to us Anatolians.

face of eastern Anatolians
https://www.google.com.tr/search?biw=1360&bih=643&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=artuqids&oq=artuqids&gs_l=img.3...110277.112263.0.112353.8.8.0.0.0.0.20 4.983.0j5j1.6.0.staremoon...0...1.1.45.img..5.3.55 2.48S75LcB4Oc

As far as i understand you are pretty desperate http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/wait-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862524 to prove you are something more than Turk :fhhorse: eh?

[Danishmend]

Raine has serious issues

[Antimage]

I can never tell apart Turks, Greeks and Albanians. They all are hairy and swarthy. The only Europeans are Slavs on the Balkans.

wtf is this bullshit? europeans can't be swarthy? if u live in europe, you are european, it's that simple

[Arch Hades]

this thread sucks. true story

[Inti]

wtf is this bullshit? europeans can't be swarthy? if u live in europe, you are european, it's that simple

Feeling touchy? Lots of Africans and pakistani live in Europe for 3-4 generations, then they are European too.

[Antimage]

Feeling touchy? Lots of Africans and pakistani live in Europe for 3-4 generations, then they are European too.obviously i was talking about native europeans. plus the slavs on the balkans are very different the west slavs and east slavs. Macedonians and bulgarian very often overlap with greeks. Swarthy people also can be found among croatians,bosnians and serbs. I haven't yet seen enough slovenians so I can't judge them

swarthy doesn't mean non european. stop with the nordicist bullshit

[Inti]

obviously i was talking about native europeans. plus the slavs on the balkans are very different the west slavs and east slavs. Macedonians and bulgarian very often overlap with greeks. Swarthy people also can be found among croatians,bosnians and serbs. I haven't yet seen enough slovenians so I can't judge them

swarthy doesn't mean non european. stop with the nordicist bullshit

Greeks came from Anatolia and the Middle East. Slavs from the Balkans are not very different to western Slavs either. Macedonians and Bulgarians are not even remotely similar to Greeks. At best there's some overlap with northern Greeks.

[Scholarios]

Greeks came from Anatolia and the Middle East. Slavs from the Balkans are not very different to western Slavs either. Macedonians and Bulgarians are not even remotely similar to Greeks. At best there's some overlap with northern Greeks.

What a load of horse shit. Prove it. Don't keep coming here with fiery words trying to stir up trouble with Turks, Greeks, and other Europeans.

http://greek-dna-sub-saharan-myth.org/images/genetics/novembre-fig1a.png

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Hellenas1977/mtdna.jpg

Greek Ydna

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/greek-ydna.gif?w=500&h=500

[Inti]

What a load of horse shit. Prove it. Don't keep coming here with fiery words trying to stir up trouble with Turks, Greeks, and other Europeans.

http://greek-dna-sub-saharan-myth.org/images/genetics/novembre-fig1a.png




On aDNA you're twice closer to Turks than to central Europeans from Austria or Czech republic. Fives times closer to Turks than to Finns, Latvians, Swedes or Irish. On aDNA you are between Turks and Bulgarians. On Y-DNA G* (caucasus) 8.63% + E3b (African) +J*(Middle East) 27.16% = 51.85%

[Scholarios]

On aDNA you're twice closer to Turks than to central Europeans from Austria or Czech republic. Fives times closer to Turks than to Finns, Latvians, Swedes or Irish. On aDNA you are between Turks and Bulgarians. On Y-DNA G* (caucasus) 8.63% + E3b (African) +J*(Middle East) 27.16% = 51.85%

So what does it have to do with Balkan Slavs? Why even mention Czechs and Finns? who cares? Especially as we all know Western Turkey is significantly affected by Balkanians and Greeks ( just look at their ydna)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Turkey_Y_chromosome(in_20_haplogroups).png

And by almost every 23and me Greeks have between 22 and 55% more Eastern or Balkan European than Turks.

[Inti]

So what does it have to do with Balkan Slavs? Why even mention Czechs and Finns? who cares? Especially as we all know Western Turkey is significantly affected by Balkanians and Greeks ( just look at their ydna)

Balkan Slavs are only European on the Balkans, while Greeks are not. Czechs and Austrians are proxy population in the context, while Greeks are outliers. Greeks cluster better with Turkey and the middle eastern population than with majority of European population. Now, go figure.

Edit: 23andMe identify Greeks as Balkanians , French as northern European etc. Anyone who is similar to Greeks or French become Balkanian or northern European respectively. Such definitions are bollocks. In reality , you are similar to Turks on autosomal DNA . See the map you posted above.

[Earl]

Yes, because I'm Greek and Turkish. Btw Turks are just Hittite descendants apparently that were culturally assimilated. It's just a cruel fate of being conquered by others.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12753667

[Alphawolf]

Yes, because I'm Greek and Turkish. Btw Turks are just Hittite descendants apparently that were culturally assimilated.

King Midas sen misin?

[Tsubasa]

Turk existence in Anatolia did not start in 1071. Assimilation and forced conversion were never part of Turk policy in any period of history. Archives support this fact too considering Ottomans recorded every single event in detail. Thats why even centuries later, the cultures, religions and languages that existed under Turk rule were all protected and survived. The population in medieval Anatolia were not in millions. The most crowded city had around 8000 people at highest most of the time.

If the local population was already so dominant in terms of culture and demography, why did they surrender to a handful of "new comers" and forgot their identity right away? Thats how deluded and foolish your Turkification garbage is. The number of Janissaries was around 15.000 at highest even during Sultan Suleiman era which was the period when Ottoman Empire had it's largest borders. The main fighting force of Ottoman Army was always the Turk soldiers taken from Anatolia. Trying to explain the origins of a modern day population of a country with a small medieval fighting force only shows you are either brainwashed or illiterate. Besides that, majority of Janissaries were massacred in 1826 when Sultan Mahmud disbanded the Janissary Corps. The incident is called "Vaka-i Hayriye". The rape and kidnap fairy tales are nothing but day dreaming of mad Greek Orthodox priests and they educate their kids with such horror stories at schools even today.

Devshirme system was only limited within the palace and starting from Sultan Suleiman period, Turk children were allowed to attend to palace schools called Enderun where Janissaries and converts of the Devshirme system were educated. Until the end of Sultan Mehmed the Conquerer's period, Ottoman Grand Veziers were mostly from Turk families such as Çandaroğulları. The reason of Grand Veziers being from Devshirme converts in the following centuries was to secure the continuation of the Ottoman dynasty and to prevent inside conflicts. Because intermarriage between royal palace families always had a potential to cause dynastic struggle for the throne.

Greeks and Armenians never ruled Anatolia. They were always small minorities in the multi-ethnic Eastern Roman Empire. There was not a Greek or an Armenian empire which conquered and ruled the region for thousands of years. The only two historical nations in Asia Minor are Turks and Persians. There is also not an ethnicity such as Anatolian. Anatolia has been called Turkey since 12th century by the foreigners. It became Turkey because of Turk ethnicity, not the other way around. But Anatolia was never called Greece or Armenia.

What is Greek genes anyway? Does such thing exist? Greek is an identity that was built on Orthodoxy. Thats why Greeks claim "brotherhood" with Serbians and Russians whom they have no linguistic or ethnic similarities with. Thats why they try to "Hellenize" Gagauz Turks and Karamanlides with heavy propaganda due to their Orthodox belief. Because to be Greek, it is enough to be a baptized Orthodox Christian. Also, Turks never looked fully Asiatic at first place. That is why to say "Turks dont look Asiatic because of Greeks" is nothing but pure garbage and has nothing to do with historical facts. Only brainwashed and biased Greeks usually use such garbage as an argument.

[Earl]

Turk existence in Anatolia did not start in 1071. Assimilation and forced conversion were never part of Turk policy in any period of history. Archives support this fact too considering Ottomans recorded every single event in detail. Thats why even centuries later, the cultures, religions and languages that existed in Turk empires were all protected and survived. The population in medieval Anatolia were not in millions. The most crowded city had around 8000 people at highest most of the time.

If the local population was already so dominant in terms of culture and population, why did they surrender to a handful of "new comers" and forgot their identity right away? Thats how deluded and foolish your Turkification garbage is. The number of Janissaries was around 15.000 at highest even during Sultan Suleiman era which was the period when Ottoman Empire had it's largest borders. The main fighting force of Ottoman Turk army was always the Turk soldiers taken from Anatolia. Trying to explain the origins of a modern day population of a country only shows your are brainwashed or illiterate. Besides that, majority of Janissaries were massacred in 1826 when Sultan Mahmud disbanded the Janissary Corps. The incident is called "Vaka-i Hayriye".

Devshirme system was only limited within the palace and starting from Sultan Suleiman period, Turk children were allowed to attend to palace schools called Enderun where Janissaries and converts of the Devshirme system were educated. Until the end of Sultan Mehmed the Conquerer's period, Ottoman Grand Veziers were mostly from Turk families such as Çandaroğulları. The reason of Grand Veziers being from Devshirme converts in the following centuries was to secure the continuation of the Ottoman dynasty and to prevent inside conflicts. Because intermarriage between royal palace families always had a potential to cause dynastic struggle for the throne.

Greeks and Armenians never ruled Anatolia. They were always small minorities in the multi-ethnic Eastern Roman Empire. There was not a Greek or an Armenian empire which conquered and ruled the region for thousands of years. The only two historical nations in Asia Minor are Turks and Persians. There is also not an ethnicity such as Anatolian. Anatolia has been called Turkey since 12th century by the foreigners. It became Turkey because of Turk ethnicity, not the other way around. But Anatolia was never called Greece or Armenia.

What is Greek genes anyway? Does such thing exist? Greek is an identity that was built on Orthodoxy. Thats why Greeks claim brotherhood fairy tales with Serbians and Russians whom they have no linguistic or ethnic similarities with. Thats why they try to "Hellenize" Gagauz Turks and Karamanlides with heavy propaganda due to their Orthodox belief. Because to be Greek, it is enough to be a baptized Orthodox. Also, Turks never looked fully Asiatic at first place. That is why to say "Turks dont look Asiatic because of Greeks" is nothing but pure garbage and has nothing to do with historical facts. Only brainwashed Greeks would use such garbage as arguments.

They did genetic studies http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12753667. Being native inhabitants of your/our country should make you proud.

[Tsubasa]

DNA testing proves nothing and it has a political agenda behind it. DNA testing can only give an opinion about the origins of a single individual if you have a personal interest in such matters. They take samples from 100 people, then publish and declare the results as the "DNA structure" of a country with almost 80 million population.

[Earl]

DNA testing proves nothing and it has a political agenda behind it. DNA testing can only give an opinion about the origins of a single individual if you have a personal interest in such matters. They take samples from 100 people, then publish and declare the results as the "DNA structure" of a country with almost 80 million population.

I really don't know why your strongy opposed to this but heres another study http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1399-0039.2002.600201.x/abstract;jsessionid=6FD9AEAA85EEBB76E571EEBF0CE510 B0.f04t04 these sites are really good research publishing sites by the way. I use them for my scientific studies.

[Alphawolf]

I really don't know why your strongy opposed to this but heres another study http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1399-0039.2002.600201.x/abstract;jsessionid=6FD9AEAA85EEBB76E571EEBF0CE510 B0.f04t04 these sites are really good research publishing sites by the way. I use them for my scientific studies.

Trust only genetic analyzes, if you do it by yourself. The experimenter will effectively determine the outcome. Using genetic tests you can pretty much "support" any hypothesis that you want to throw in the world. You just need to choose the genetic markers carefully select the saliva samples according to certain criteria, and you can already "prove" your theory genetically.

[Earl]

Trust only genetic analyzes, if you do it by yourself. The experimenter will effectively determine the outcome. Using genetic tests you can pretty much "support" any hypothesis that you want to throw in the world. You just need to choose the genetic markers carefully select the saliva samples according to certain criteria, and you can already "prove" your theory genetically.

Do you have any education in science my friend? I've worked with many scientific instruments and I can tell you there are very accurate genetic mapping machines linked to computers. Plus, the author of this article has many articles published under his belt, he's a professor.

As I said, why are you denying something without even researching further into it? I don't understand what you have to lose if you accept such a thing, let alone saying its probable. If this is about Ataturk, he would have respected further inquiry.

EDIT: You don't even need to accept it you could say "I'll research more into it".

Here's another http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11526236
And another
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18161848

Question- How many professor can be wrong? By your thinking apparently a lot...

[Alphawolf]

Do you have any education in science my friend? I've worked with many scientific instruments and I can tell you there are very accurate genetic test machines linked to computers. Plus the author of this article has so many articles published under his belt, he's a professor.

As I said, why are you denying something without even researching further into it? I don't understand what you have to lose if you accept such a thing. If this is about Ataturk, he would have respected further inquiry.

EDIT: You don't even need to accept it you could say "I'll research more into it".

Here's another http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11526236

Yes, i have an education in science. I had Biology-LK at the Gymnasium :P As i said before, you must be careful in mtDNA analyzes. Your resolution is just high enough for hiking trace geographically, but not being able to state unequivocally whether sexual relations before 1000, 1050 or 100,000 years ago took place. (Unless the geneticist has a time machine, to ask our ancestors to saliva samples). Here, then, the historian comes and submitted the geneticist a hypothesis.

But what you certainly can not say is that Turks are Hittites, Greeks, Africans, Arabs or whatever. Turks are Turks. When one examines their DNA you will find only similarities with other peoples (of course not only with Turkic peoples) of sexual contacts (love, rape, forced, emergency, whatever has moved individual destinies). Turks have a common ancestor with other Turkic peoples. In my opinion, none of these stories and no genetic analysis allowed an identity crisis or even a racial and cultural war or trigger a nation split.

Restrict the history of a population only to the last 3000 years and known to us only because politically orient is a mistake. There is no real reason for the year 1500 to emphasize more strongly before our time as the year 35000 BC In all these years, populations have hated and loved, fought and mixed. In addition, no gene force the single individual which he identify and what culture he is to maintain.

[Tsubasa]

* Did the Greeks constitute a race apart from the Albanians, the Slavs and the Vlachs? High school students were told that other ethnicities such as the Slavs, the Albanians and the Vlachs having been, Hellenized within the years in terms of morals and customs, are now being fully assimilated into the Greeks.
(Greece In The 20th Century, Theodore A. Couloumbis, Theodore Kariots, Fotini Bellou, Page 24)

* Constantinople and all continental Greece were ruled and occupied by the Romans for centuries, and during many subsequent centuries, invaded and colonized by the Slavs. The Crusades and the Latin conquest brought a large influx of Western Europeans, commonly called as Franks and in later times, extensive Albanian settlements were established in Greek districts. Clearly, the modern Greek must be of very mixed blood.
(Turkey In Europe, Sir Charles Elliot, Page 267)

* I have already said it, and I will repeat it, that not even 1/5 of the present population of Greece, can with justice, be called Greeks. The remainder are Slavonians, Albanians and Turks, with a slight infusion of Venetian blood.
(Travels In Greece and Russia, Bayard Tailor, 1872, Page 262)

* It should be stressed, however, that the Greeks as an ethnic community during 1840's, included many Grecophone, Hellenized Vlachs, Serbians and Orthodox Albanians.
(Greece and The Balkan Identities, Perceptions and Cultural Encounters Since The Enlightenment, Dimitris Tziovas, Page 6)

* Anatolian Greek identity is a concept based on religion. It is not directly a nation. Greeks managed to come together because of the Orthodox Church. There is not a Greek identity in terms of a nation in Anatolia.
(Sir William Ramsay)

[Earl]

Yes, i have an education in science. I had Biology-LK at the Gymnasium :P As i said before, you must be careful in mtDNA analyzes. Your resolution is just high enough for hiking trace geographically, but not being able to state unequivocally whether sexual relations before 1000, 1050 or 100,000 years ago took place. (Unless the geneticist has a time machine, to ask our ancestors to saliva samples). Here, then, the historian comes and submitted the geneticist a hypothesis.

But what you certainly can not say is that Turks are Hittites, Greeks, Africans, Arabs or whatever. Turks are Turks. When one examines their DNA you will find only similarities with other peoples (of course not only with Turkic peoples) of sexual contacts (love, rape, forced, emergency, whatever has moved individual destinies). Turks have a common ancestor with other Turkic peoples. In my opinion, none of these stories and no genetic analysis allowed an identity crisis or even a racial and cultural war or trigger a nation split.

Restrict the history of a population only to the last 3000 years and known to us only because politically orient is a mistake. There is no real reason for the year 1500 to emphasize more strongly before our time as the year 35000 BC In all these years, populations have hated and loved, fought and mixed. In addition, no gene writes the single individual before which he identify and what culture he is to maintain.

Well, since Turks aren't related to Mongols, or are related very slightly. This would mean that Turks have to be something else...
Also, your true these tests didn't test Turks with Anatolians of 5,000BC. These genetic tests tested Turks versus different Mongolian tribes. Results of these tests showed very little relation, small enough to say a good majority of Turks aren't descended from mongols.

[Tsubasa]

Well, since Turks aren't related to Mongols, or are related very slightly. This would mean that Turks have to be something else...
Also, your true these tests didn't test Turks with Anatolians of 5,000BC. These genetic tests tested Turks versus different Mongolian tribes.

Learn better history and demography first. Turk and Mongol are two distant members of the Turkic ethnic branch. They interacted often through history, that doesnt mean they are the same people. Ghengis Khan made the capital of his empire as Otüken for example because he considered himself as the continuation of the Huns.

[Earl]

* Did the Greeks constitute a race apart from the Albanians, the Slavs and the Vlachs? High school students were told that other ethnicities such as the Slavs, the Albanians and the Vlachs having been, Hellenized within the years in terms of morals and customs, are now being fully assimilated into the Greeks.
(Greece In The 20th Century, Theodore A. Couloumbis, Theodore Kariots, Fotini Bellou, Page 24)

* Constantinople and all continental Greece were ruled and occupied by the Romans for centuries, and during many subsequent centuries, invaded and colonized by the Slavs. The Crusades and the Latin conquest brought a large influx of Western Europeans, commonly called as Franks and in later times, extensive Albanian settlements were established in Greek districts. Clearly, the modern Greek must be of very mixed blood.
(Turkey In Europe, Sir Charles Elliot, Page 267)

* I have already said it, and I will repeat it, that not even 1/5 of the present population of Greece, can with justice, be called Greeks. The remainder are Slavonians, Albanians and Turks, with a slight infusion of Venetian blood.
(Travels In Greece and Russia, Bayard Tailor, 1872, Page 262)

* It should be stressed, however, that the Greeks as an ethnic community during 1840's, included many Grecophone, Hellenized Vlachs, Serbians and Orthodox Albanians.
(Greece and The Balkan Identities, Perceptions and Cultural Encounters Since The Enlightenment, Dimitris Tziovas, Page 6)

* Anatolian Greek identity is a concept based on religion. It is not directly a nation. Greeks managed to come together because of the Orthodox Church. There is not a Greek identity in terms of a nation in Anatolia.
(Sir William Ramsay)

* I have already said it, and I will repeat it, that not even 1/5 of the present population of Greece, can with justice, be called Greeks. The remainder are Slavonians, Albanians and Turks, with a slight infusion of Venetian blood.
(Travels In Greece and Russia, Bayard Tailor, 1872, Page 262)

Reason why my ethnicity is Italian, Greek, Albanian, and Turkish.

[Alphawolf]

Well, since Turks aren't related to Mongols, or are related very slightly. This would mean that Turks have to be something else...
Also, your true these tests didn't test Turks with Anatolians of 5,000BC. These genetic tests tested Turks versus different Mongolian tribes. Which showed very little relation.

A German professor for Turkology:

»Die Ethnogenese der Türken liegt bis heute im Dunkeln, vieles ist unsicher und kann nur mit Vorsicht und unter Schwierigkeiten rekonstruiert werden. […] Ebenso unklar ist es, ob die erste Urheimat der Türken mit dem Altai, mit Südsibirien und der Trans-Baikal-Region oder mit dem transkaspischen Gebiet identifiziert werden soll, von wo sie während des 1. Jahrtausends v. Chr. die von iranischen Völkern bewohnte Mongolei zu besiedeln begannen (Golden 1992:16; Golden 1992:125). « (Römer, Claudia. Von den Hunnen zu den Türken – dunkle Vorgeschichte, in: Zentralasien. 13. bis 20. Jahrhundert. Geschichte und Gesellschaft, Wien 2006, S. 61)

[HellLander87]

* I have already said it, and I will repeat it, that not even 1/5 of the present population of Greece, can with justice, be called Greeks. The remainder are Slavonians, Albanians and Turks, with a slight infusion of Venetian blood.
(Travels In Greece and Russia, Bayard Tailor, 1872, Page 262)

Reason why my ethnicity is Italian, Greek, Albanian, and Turkish.
:rotfl:
You( earl and tsubastard) are both Pecheneg.Carry on the monologue.

[Alphawolf]

:rotfl:
You( earl and tsubastard) are both Pecheneg.Carry on the monologue.

Who is Pecheneg?

[HellLander87]

Who is Pecheneg?
danishmend

[Tsubasa]

:rotfl:
You( earl and tsubastard) are both Pecheneg.Carry on the monologue.

Can not handle the facts? The possibility of me being Pecheneg is much higher and realistic than you being the direct descendant of Aristotle and Plato Lol.

[Trun]

Can not handle the facts? The possibility of me being Pecheneg is much higher and realistic than you being the direct descendant of Aristotle and Plato Lol.

Aren't you tired? Oghuz_Khan, Danishmend, now Tsubasa. At least take a break and come after several months when people are less suspecting you.

[Earl]

A German professor for Turkology:

»Die Ethnogenese der Türken liegt bis heute im Dunkeln, vieles ist unsicher und kann nur mit Vorsicht und unter Schwierigkeiten rekonstruiert werden. […] Ebenso unklar ist es, ob die erste Urheimat der Türken mit dem Altai, mit Südsibirien und der Trans-Baikal-Region oder mit dem transkaspischen Gebiet identifiziert werden soll, von wo sie während des 1. Jahrtausends v. Chr. die von iranischen Völkern bewohnte Mongolei zu besiedeln begannen (Golden 1992:16; Golden 1992:125). « (Römer, Claudia. Von den Hunnen zu den Türken – dunkle Vorgeschichte, in: Zentralasien. 13. bis 20. Jahrhundert. Geschichte und Gesellschaft, Wien 2006, S. 61)

Provider: John Wiley & Sons, Ltd

TY - JOUR
AU - Machulla, H.K.G.
AU - Batnasan, D.
AU - Steinborn, F.
AU - Uyar, F.A.
AU - Saruhan-Direskeneli, G.
AU - Oguz, F.S.
AU - Carin, M.N.
AU - Dorak, M.T.
TI - Genetic affinities among Mongol ethnic groups and their relationship to Turks
JO - Tissue Antigens
VL - 61
IS - 4
PB - Munksgaard International Publishers
SN - 1399-0039
UR - http://dx.doi.org/10.1034/j.1399-0039.2003.00043.x
DO - 10.1034/j.1399-0039.2003.00043.x
SP - 292
EP - 299
KW - Altaic language group
KW - anthropology
KW - ethnic groups
KW - genetic distance
KW - HLA polymorphism
KW - Mongolia
KW - population genetics
PY - 2003

The central Asian country Mongolia is home to more than 20 tribes and ethnic groups, some of which are related to neighboring Turkic populations. The main Mongolian people, Khalkha, live in central and eastern Mongolia while the Tsaatan minority lives in the north of the country. The Oold minority is from the western Altai mountain region and live in close proximity with Turkic people. We have typed the HLA-A, -B, -Cw, -DRB1 and -DQB1 loci by PCR-SSP in these three Mongolian populations as well as a sample of the German population. To examine their genetic relationships, a sample of the Turkish population already typed at the HLA-A, -B and -DRB1 loci were used. Altogether five populations were analyzed: Khalkha (n = 100), Tsaatan (n = 72), Oold (n = 52), German (n = 260) and (Anatolian) Turkish (n = 498). Nei's unbiased genetic identity (GI) and genetic distance (GD) were estimated from genotypes using PopGene v1.31, and dendrograms were constructed using phylip. The results suggested a close relationship of the Khalkha to the Tsaatan. The Turks and Germans were equally distant to all three Mongolian populations. These results confirmed the lack of strong genetic relationship between the Mongols and the Turks despite the close relationship of their languages (Altaic group) and shared historical neighborhood. This study has provided useful population data for genetic and anthropologic studies bridging eastern and western populations.

[Tsubasa]

Greeks never massacred any Anatolian you ahistorical ignorant fool. That's what your murderous race did. Like the British ambassador to Turkey said, it wasn't just a case of Muhammendism but a combination of a murderous race and Islam.

* When it came to genocide and ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, it was in fact the Greek Army that led the way. The first example was the slaying of 32.000 unarmed Turks and Jews in Tripoli in 1821, and the ethnic cleansing of the entire Slavic speaking population of Kilkis in 1913.
(Asia Minor and The Ethnic Origins of The Refugees, The Greek Imperialist Policy of 1922 and The Asia Minor Catastrophe, Georgios Nakratzas)

* For three days, defenseless Turkish settlers were the victims of savagery and brutality. No exception was made about gender or age. Even women and children were tortured before getting killed. The scale of the massacre was so massive that the leader of Greek guerilla forces Kolokotrones said, "after I entered to town, my feet didnt touch the ground", regarding the corpses in Tripolitza. The murders seemed systematic and planned more than just an explosion of hate against the Ottoman Empire.
(Massacre of Turks, W. Allison Philips, British Historian)

[Earl]

Abstract: HLA genes allele distribution has been studied in Mediterranean and sub-Saharan populations. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, neighbour-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The population genetic relationships have been compared with the history of the classical populations living in the area. A revision of the historic postulates would have to be undertaken, particularly in the cases when genetics and history are overtly discordant. HLA genomics shows that: 1) Greeks share an important part of their genetic pool with sub-Saharan Africans (Ethiopians and west Africans) also supported by Chr 7 Markers. The gene flow from Black Africa to Greece may have occurred in Pharaonic times or when Saharan people emigrated after the present hyperarid conditions were established (5000 years B.C.). 2) Turks (Anatolians) do not significantly differ from other Mediterraneans, indicating that while the Asians Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance (language), it is not genetically detectable. 3) Kurds and Armenians are genetically very close to Turks and other Middle East populations. 4) There is no HLA genetic trace of the so called Aryan invasion, which has only been defined on doubtful linguistic bases. 5) Iberians, including Basques, are related to north-African Berbers. 6) Present-day Algerian and Moroccan urban and country people show an indistinguishable Berber HLA profile.

Arnaiz-Villena, A., Gomez-Casado, E. and Martinez-Laso, J. (2002), Population genetic relationships between Mediterranean populations determined by HLA allele distribution and a historic perspective. Tissue Antigens, 60: 111–121. doi: 10.1034/j.1399-0039.2002.600201.x

[Tsubasa]

Aren't you tired? Oghuz_Khan, Danishmend, now Tsubasa. At least take a break and come after several months when people are less suspecting you.

I am not Danishmend or Oghuz_Khan, Turk obsessed troll. I only had the nick Temucin before and I opened a thread, explained why I had to change it and added a note to my signature. Turk obsession made you become paranoid it seems.

[Trun]

I am not Danishmend or Oghuz_Khan Turk obsessed troll. I only had the nick Temucin before and I opened a thread, explained why I had to change it and added info to my signature. Turk obsession made you become paranoid it seems.

Wait a minute. From where do you know I have "Turk obsession"? You joined today and you seem to know my post history pretty well. Lqlqlq.

[Casandrinos]

This durk is coming back more and more retarded every time...

[Earl]

47894

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2001 Aug 28;98(18):10244-9.
The Eurasian heartland: a continental perspective on Y-chromosome diversity.
Wells RS1, Yuldasheva N, Ruzibakiev R, Underhill PA, Evseeva I, Blue-Smith J, Jin L, Su B, Pitchappan R, Shanmugalakshmi S, Balakrishnan K, Read M, Pearson NM, Zerjal T, Webster MT, Zholoshvili I, Jamarjashvili E, Gambarov S, Nikbin B, Dostiev A, Aknazarov O, Zalloua P, Tsoy I, Kitaev M, Mirrakhimov M, Chariev A, Bodmer WF.

[Tsubasa]

Wait a minute. From where do you know I have "Turk obsession"? You joined today and you seem to know my post history pretty well. Lqlqlq.

You must be writing similar garbage to every Turk that registers. Maybe I am a new member but I know how trolls like you behave in websites like this. Not to mention your ID card as a signature which screams your obsession.

[Earl]

Abstract
In the evolutionary history of modern humans, Anatolia acted as a bridge between the Caucasus, the Near East, and Europe. Because of its geographical location, Anatolia was subject to migrations from multiple different regions throughout time. The last, well-known migration was the movement of Turkic speaking, nomadic groups from Central Asia. They invaded Anatolia and then the language of the region was gradually replaced by the Turkic language. In the present study, insertion frequencies of 10 Alu loci (A25 = 0.07, APO = 0.96, TPA25 = 0.44, ACE = 0.37, B65 = 0.57, PV92 = 0.18, FXIIIB = 0.52, D1 = 0.40, HS4.32 = 0.66, and HS4.69 = 0.30) have been determined in the Anatolian population. Together with the data compiled from other databases, the similarity of the Anatolian population to that of the Balkans and Central Asia has been visualized by multidimensional scaling method. Analysis suggested that, genetically, Anatolia is more closely related with the Balkan populations than to the Central Asian populations. Central Asian contribution to Anatolia with respect to the Balkans was quantified with an admixture analysis. Furthermore, the association between the Central Asian contribution and the language replacement episode was examined by comparative analysis of the Central Asian contribution to Anatolia, Azerbaijan (another Turkic speaking country) and their neighbors. In the present study, the Central Asian contribution to Anatolia was estimated as 13%. This was the lowest value among the populations analyzed. This observation may be explained by Anatolia having the lowest migrant/resident ratio at the time of migrations.

Am J Phys Anthropol. 2008 May;136(1):11-8.
Alu insertion polymorphisms and an assessment of the genetic contribution of Central Asia to Anatolia with respect to the Balkans.
Berkman CC1, Dinc H, Sekeryapan C, Togan I.

[Earl]

Tissue Antigens. 2001 Apr;57(4):308-17.
HLA alleles and haplotypes in the Turkish population: relatedness to Kurds, Armenians and other Mediterraneans.
Arnaiz-Villena A1, Karin M, Bendikuze N, Gomez-Casado E, Moscoso J, Silvera C, Oguz FS, Sarper Diler A, De Pacho A, Allende L, Guillen J, Martinez Laso J.
Author information

Abstract
Turkish and Kurdish HLA profiles are studied for the first time. The comparative study of their allele frequencies, characteristic haplotypes, genetic distances with other Mediterraneans is complemented by neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. Turks, Kurds, Armenians, Iranians, Jews, Lebanese and other (Eastern and Western) Mediterranean groups seem to share a common ancestry: the older "Mediterranean" substratum. No sign of the postulated Indo-European (Aryan) invasion (1200 B.C.) is detected by our genetic analysis. It is concluded that this invasion, if occurred, had a relatively few invaders in comparison to the already settled populations, i.e. Anatolian Hittite and Hurrian groups (older than 2000 B.C.). These may have given rise to present-day Kurdish, Armenian and Turkish populations.

[Tsubasa]

47894

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2001 Aug 28;98(18):10244-9.
The Eurasian heartland: a continental perspective on Y-chromosome diversity.
Wells RS1, Yuldasheva N, Ruzibakiev R, Underhill PA, Evseeva I, Blue-Smith J, Jin L, Su B, Pitchappan R, Shanmugalakshmi S, Balakrishnan K, Read M, Pearson NM, Zerjal T, Webster MT, Zholoshvili I, Jamarjashvili E, Gambarov S, Nikbin B, Dostiev A, Aknazarov O, Zalloua P, Tsoy I, Kitaev M, Mirrakhimov M, Chariev A, Bodmer WF.

There is no such ethnicity as Anatolian. That is the invention of liberals and far-left/communist left-overs who are allergic to national values and identity.

[Earl]

Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia.
Cinnioğlu C1, King R, Kivisild T, Kalfoğlu E, Atasoy S, Cavalleri GL, Lillie AS, Roseman CC, Lin AA, Prince K, Oefner PJ, Shen P, Semino O, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA.
Author information

Abstract
Analysis of 89 biallelic polymorphisms in 523 Turkish Y chromosomes revealed 52 distinct haplotypes with considerable haplogroup substructure, as exemplified by their respective levels of accumulated diversity at ten short tandem repeat (STR) loci. The major components (haplogroups E3b, G, J, I, L, N, K2, and R1; 94.1%) are shared with European and neighboring Near Eastern populations and contrast with only a minor share of haplogroups related to Central Asian (C, Q and O; 3.4%), Indian (H, R2; 1.5%) and African (A, E3*, E3a; 1%) affinity. The expansion times for 20 haplogroup assemblages was estimated from associated STR diversity. This comprehensive characterization of Y-chromosome heritage addresses many multifaceted aspects of Anatolian prehistory, including: (1) the most frequent haplogroup, J, splits into two sub-clades, one of which (J2) shows decreasing variances with increasing latitude, compatible with a northward expansion; (2) haplogroups G1 and L show affinities with south Caucasus populations in their geographic distribution as well as STR motifs; (3) frequency of haplogroup I, which originated in Europe, declines with increasing longitude, indicating gene flow arriving from Europe; (4) conversely, haplogroup G2 radiates towards Europe; (5) haplogroup E3b3 displays a latitudinal correlation with decreasing frequency northward; (6) haplogroup R1b3 emanates from Turkey towards Southeast Europe and Caucasia and; (7) high resolution SNP analysis provides evidence of a detectable yet weak signal (<9%) of recent paternal gene flow from Central Asia. The variety of Turkish haplotypes is witness to Turkey being both an important source and recipient of gene flow.

[Hayalet]

Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia.
Cinnioğlu C1, King R, Kivisild T, Kalfoğlu E, Atasoy S, Cavalleri GL, Lillie AS, Roseman CC, Lin AA, Prince K, Oefner PJ, Shen P, Semino O, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA.
Author information

Abstract
Analysis of 89 biallelic polymorphisms in 523 Turkish Y chromosomes revealed 52 distinct haplotypes with considerable haplogroup substructure, as exemplified by their respective levels of accumulated diversity at ten short tandem repeat (STR) loci. The major components (haplogroups E3b, G, J, I, L, N, K2, and R1; 94.1%) are shared with European and neighboring Near Eastern populations and contrast with only a minor share of haplogroups related to Central Asian (C, Q and O; 3.4%), Indian (H, R2; 1.5%) and African (A, E3*, E3a; 1%) affinity. The expansion times for 20 haplogroup assemblages was estimated from associated STR diversity. This comprehensive characterization of Y-chromosome heritage addresses many multifaceted aspects of Anatolian prehistory, including: (1) the most frequent haplogroup, J, splits into two sub-clades, one of which (J2) shows decreasing variances with increasing latitude, compatible with a northward expansion; (2) haplogroups G1 and L show affinities with south Caucasus populations in their geographic distribution as well as STR motifs; (3) frequency of haplogroup I, which originated in Europe, declines with increasing longitude, indicating gene flow arriving from Europe; (4) conversely, haplogroup G2 radiates towards Europe; (5) haplogroup E3b3 displays a latitudinal correlation with decreasing frequency northward; (6) haplogroup R1b3 emanates from Turkey towards Southeast Europe and Caucasia and; (7) high resolution SNP analysis provides evidence of a detectable yet weak signal (<9%) of recent paternal gene flow from Central Asia. The variety of Turkish haplotypes is witness to Turkey being both an important source and recipient of gene flow.
You will find that most Central Asian Turkic groups (except Kazakhs) have predominantly "European" and "Near Eastern" Y-DNA haplogroups just like Anatolian Turks.

[Earl]

You will find that most Central Asian Turkic groups (except Kazakhs) have predominantly "European" and "Near Eastern" Y-DNA haplogroups just like Anatolian Turks.

Any links?

I found this but says the opposite what you say.

Hum Genet. 2004 Jan;114(2):127-48. Epub 2003 Oct 29.
Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia.
Cinnioğlu C1, King R, Kivisild T, Kalfoğlu E, Atasoy S, Cavalleri GL, Lillie AS, Roseman CC, Lin AA, Prince K, Oefner PJ, Shen P, Semino O, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA.
Author information

Abstract
Analysis of 89 biallelic polymorphisms in 523 Turkish Y chromosomes revealed 52 distinct haplotypes with considerable haplogroup substructure, as exemplified by their respective levels of accumulated diversity at ten short tandem repeat (STR) loci. The major components (haplogroups E3b, G, J, I, L, N, K2, and R1; 94.1%) are shared with European and neighboring Near Eastern populations and contrast with only a minor share of haplogroups related to Central Asian (C, Q and O; 3.4%), Indian (H, R2; 1.5%) and African (A, E3*, E3a; 1%) affinity. The expansion times for 20 haplogroup assemblages was estimated from associated STR diversity. This comprehensive characterization of Y-chromosome heritage addresses many multifaceted aspects of Anatolian prehistory, including: (1) the most frequent haplogroup, J, splits into two sub-clades, one of which (J2) shows decreasing variances with increasing latitude, compatible with a northward expansion; (2) haplogroups G1 and L show affinities with south Caucasus populations in their geographic distribution as well as STR motifs; (3) frequency of haplogroup I, which originated in Europe, declines with increasing longitude, indicating gene flow arriving from Europe; (4) conversely, haplogroup G2 radiates towards Europe; (5) haplogroup E3b3 displays a latitudinal correlation with decreasing frequency northward; (6) haplogroup R1b3 emanates from Turkey towards Southeast Europe and Caucasia and; (7) high resolution SNP analysis provides evidence of a detectable yet weak signal (<9%) of recent paternal gene flow from Central Asia. The variety of Turkish haplotypes is witness to Turkey being both an important source and recipient of gene flow.

J2=24% - J2 (M172)[5] Typical of west Mediterranean populations
R1b=14.7%[5] Widespread in western Eurasia, with distinct 'west Asian' and 'west European' lineages.
G=10.9%[5] - Typical of people from the Caucasus and to a lesser extent the Middle East.
E3b-M35=10.7%[5] (E3b1-M78 and E3b3-M123 accounting for all E representatives in the sample, besides a single E3b2-M81 chromosome). E-M78 occurs commonly, and is found in northern and eastern Africa, western Asia[20] Haplogroup E-M123 is found in both Africa and Eurasia.
J1=9%[5] - Typical amongst people from the Arabian Peninsula and Dagestan (ranging from 3% from Turks around Konya to 12% in Kurds).
R1a=6.9%[5] - Common in various Central Asian, Indian, and Eastern European populations.
I=5.3%[5] - Common in Balkans and eastern Europe, possibly representing a back-migration to Anatolia.
K=4.5%[5] - Typical of Asian populations and Caucasian populations.
L=4.2%[5] - Typical of Indian Subcontinent and Khorasan populations. Found sporadically in the Middle East and the Caucasus.
N=3.8%[5] - Typical of Uralic, Siberian and Altaic populations.
T=2.5%[5] - Typical of Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, Northeast African and South Asian populations
Q=1.9%[5] - Typical of Northern Altaic populations.

47895

[Hayalet]

Any links?


Y-DNA
R1b
R1a
I
E1b1b
J
N
L


Kyrgyz
1.9%
63.5%
1.9%
-
4.9%
2.4%
-


Turkmen
36.7%
6.7%
-
-
23.8%
9.5%
-


Uyghur
19.4%
22.6%
-
6.5%
25.8%
9.7%
-


Uzbek
9.8%
25.1%
2.2%
2.5%
21.4%
-
3%



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

[Alphawolf]

http://i.imgur.com/WYRXykR.jpg

[Tsubasa]

Eastern Anatolia has always been traditionally inhabited by Iranid, Kurdish, Assyrid and Armenids.

* Legendary leader of Turks, Alp Er Tunga, also mentioned as Kutadgu Bilig in Divan-ı Lügati Türk, as Afrasiyab in the Persian epic "Shahnameh" and also as the Khan of Sycthians. The headquarters of Alp Er Tunga was Caucasus in 700 BC, which is the region that Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan and Turkey are located in today. This region was the country of this Turk commander. Another important Turk tribe regarding the Eastern Anatolian history was Kipchaks that had a major empire in the region in 9th century. According to Georgian sources, Kipchaks settled in today's Caucasus, Eastern Anatolia and when Alexander The Great arrived to the region, he faced a great resistance, and these people were called Bun Turki-Kipchaks. In Kartel country, also known as Georgia, many ethnicities and tribes existed and more important, Kipchaks defended Georgia against Alexander and Persian invasion. There is a village called Kipcag and a monestary/church called Kipcak-a Vank in Gyumri town of Georgia today.

* Professor A. Erzen from University of Istanbul established the Historical and Archeological research center of Van region in 1967, as a department in the faculty of literature, made long and detailed researches in high valleys of Eastern Anatolia with Turkish and Western European professors. The results were published in the book named "Eastern Anatolia and Urartians" in 1984. The migrations to Eastern Anatolia from Central Asia started in the year 13.000 BC. The shapes on the rocks with visual value, the pictures, stamps and writings on the cave walls points out this date. The west, left the cross-roads between Asia, Anatolia and Mesapotamia with out a history to place the artifical states they created through politics. A picture found on a rock in baset mountain of Van, with writing elements that belong to the time period of 12.000-13.000. A tablet found between Van/Hakkari in Cilgiri, identified as belonging to the time period of 6000-7000 by Professor Muvaffak Uyanik, is a Proto-Turk stamp which is read as OQ, meaning someone from earth and without a sin.

[Linet]

Why?Why did i get in this thread again? http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/oh-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862514
Someone bring me relaxing pills.... http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/crazy-rabbit/bad-luck-crazy-rabbit-emoticon.gif?1292793763

Breath in...breath out....breat in...breath out....you will make it girl.... :levitate:

[wvwvw]

Why?Why did i get in this thread again? http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/oh-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862514


:stricken: :dunno:

[Earl]

Y-DNA
R1b
R1a
I
E1b1b
J
N
L


Kyrgyz
1.9%
63.5%
1.9%
-
4.9%
2.4%
-


Turkmen
36.7%
6.7%
-
-
23.8%
9.5%
-


Uyghur
19.4%
22.6%
-
6.5%
25.8%
9.7%
-


Uzbek
9.8%
25.1%
2.2%
2.5%
21.4%
-
3%



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

It's missing some Haplogroups says it right underneath it that-
This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it.

[Hayalet]

It's missing some Haplogroups says it right underneath it that-
This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it.
It doesn't matter. You can see absolute majorities (>50%) for all four ethnic groups.

[Sky earth]

Y-DNA
R1b
R1a
I
E1b1b
J
N
L


Kyrgyz
1.9%
63.5%
1.9%
-
4.9%
2.4%
-


Turkmen
36.7%
6.7%
-
-
23.8%
9.5%
-


Uyghur
19.4%
22.6%
-
6.5%
25.8%
9.7%
-


Uzbek
9.8%
25.1%
2.2%
2.5%
21.4%
-
3%



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

I thought that Turkmens were predominantly Q carriers but isn't that study of haplogroups in Turkmens from 2002?

[Annihilus]

Someone bring me relaxing pills.... http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/crazy-rabbit/bad-luck-crazy-rabbit-emoticon.gif?1292793763

Breath in...breath out....breat in...breath out....you will make it girl.... :levitate:

Congratulations!:)

boy or girl?