Have more people died at the hands of Atheists, than believers?

[Crn Volk]

Communists and to a lesser degree Nazis, were/are Atheists. Therefore the millions who died at the hands of Soviet, Nazi, Polpot, North Korea, China etc. far exceed those killed by religious wars. What do you think?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Of course, though I don't think the numbers game is a good justification. That kind of retarded thinking that assumes correlation = causality is the most braindead thinking of all, and is generally wht leftist retards use to push their agenda. Like pointing to japanese gun laws and saying that's why japanese have few murders - except japanese americans have just as few.

[Methmatician]

Were they killed for being believers? No. False cause fallacy.

[Crn Volk]

Of course, though I don't think the numbers game is a good justification. That kind of retarded thinking that assumes correlation = causality is the most braindead thinking of all, and is generally wht leftist retards use to push their agenda. Like pointing to japanese gun laws and saying that's why japanese have few murders - except japanese americans have just as few.

Yes, but atheists like to point out the many deaths due to religions as a barometer of their badness

[Also]

Were they killed for being believers? No. False cause fallacy.

Actually, many were killed and persecuted for being believers in various communist states. Yet right now Christians are persectued in North Korea and also China:

"Christians Urged to Pray for 33 People Facing Execution in North Korea for Connection With Missionary

South Korean papers reported last week that Kim Jong Un has ordered the deaths of 33 people found to have received money for building 500 underground churches from South Korean missionary Kim Jung Wook. Engaging in secret religious activities is a crime punishable by arrest and even public execution in the Pacific nation."

- http://www.christianpost.com/news/christians-urged-to-pray-for-33-people-facing-execution-in-north-korea-for-connection-with-missionary-115919/

Under the Khmer Rouge communist government in Cambodia:
"All religion was banned by the Khmer Rouge. Any people seen taking part in religious rituals or services would be executed. Several Buddhists, Muslims, and Christians were killed for exercising their beliefs"
"Ethnic Vietnamese, ethnic Chinese, ethnic Thai, and other minorities in the Eastern Highlands, Cambodian Christians (most of whom were Catholic, and the Catholic Church in general), Muslims, and the Buddhist monks. The Roman Catholic cathedral of Phnom Penh was razed. The Khmer Rouge forced Muslims to eat pork, which they regard as forbidden (ḥarām). Many of those who refused were killed. Christian clergy and Muslim imams were executed. One former Khmer Rouge Commander, Comrade Duch, converted to Evangelical Christianity in the years after the regime fell."
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge

[Also]

Yes, but atheists like to point out the many deaths due to religions as a barometer of their badness

Religion is nowhere being a primary cause of homicide and when weighting things we should consider the good things religion brings like the long historic of charity and funding schools, universities, hospitals, orphanages etc... And wheter they admit it or not atheists have killed plenty of people in the past simply for being religious too. I've made a thread once related to that if you might want to check: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?122329-Religious-wars-vs-Atheist-wars

[Methmatician]

Actually, many were killed and persecuted for being believers in various communist states. Yet right now Christians are persectued in North Korea and also China:
So what's the actual death toll?

[Longbowman]

I don't know for absolute numbers, but probably proportionately, yes.

[Also]

So what's the actual death toll?

Counting communist regimes alone 85 million ~ 100 million.

USSR -- 20 million

China -- 65 million

Vietnam -- 1 million

North Korea -- 2 million

Cambodia -- 2 million

Eastern Europe -- 1 million

Latin America -- 150,000

Africa -- 1.7 million

Afghanistan -- 1.5 million

Communist movements, parties not in power -- 10,000

In total, this is not far short of 100 million deaths at the hands of a single ideology.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/4230/so_how_many_did_communism_kill

[Methmatician]

In total, this is not far short of 100 million deaths at the hands of a single ideology.
Communism is not a religion :picard1:


http://www.thecommentator.com/article/4230/so_how_many_did_communism_kill
This counts the number of people killed under communist regimes. People were killed for various reasons. I'm looking for a number on how many were killed simply for having religious beliefs and nothing else.

[LightHouse89]

Communists and to a lesser degree Nazis, were/are Atheists. Therefore the millions who died at the hands of Soviet, Nazi, Polpot, North Korea, China etc. far exceed those killed by religious wars. What do you think?

yes.

[Also]

Communism is not a religion :picard1:

And who said it is?? It says ideology not religion. The point of this thread is to compared homicides done by religious people vs. those done by atheists.



This counts the number of people killed under communist regimes. People were killed for various reasons. I'm looking for a number on how many were killed simply for having religious beliefs and nothing else.

I don't know the exact number of those killed for their religious beliefs. But I don't think the intention of the author is to consider only people killed because they were religious but homicides done by atheists x religious.

[Vullkan]

A common criticism which atheists raise against religion is how violent religion and religious believers have been in the past. People have slaughtered each other in large numbers either because of differences in religious beliefs or because of other differences which are further justified and intensified through religious rhetoric. Either way, religion has a lot of blood on its hands. Can the same be said for atheists and atheism? Haven't atheists killed more people in the name of atheism than religious theists have killed in the name of their religion? No, because atheism isn't a philosophy or ideology.

[Vullkan]

How Many Have Been Killed by Communists in the Name of Atheism & Secularism?:

None, probably. How can that be? After all, millions and millions of people died in Russia and China under communist governments — and those governments were both secular and atheistic. So weren't all of those people killed because of atheism — even in the name of atheism and secularism? No, that conclusion does not follow. Atheism itself isn't a principle, cause, philosophy, or belief system which people fight, die, or kill for. Being killed by an atheist is no more being killed in the name of atheism than being killed by a tall person is being killed in the name of tallness. Communists Don't Kill in the Name of Atheism.

[Vullkan]

Hitler Was an Atheist Who Killed Millions in the Name of Atheism, Secularism:

A popular image of the Nazis is that they were fundamentally anti-Christian while devout Christians were anti-Nazi. The truth is that German Christians supported the Nazis because they believed that Adolf Hitler was a gift to the German people from God. Hitler frequently referenced God and Christianity both in public and private. The Nazi Party Program explicitly endorsed and promoted Christianity in the party platform. Millions of Christians in Germany not only enthusiastically supported and endorsed Hitler and the Nazis, but did so on the basis of common Christian beliefs and attitudes. Hitler Was Not an Atheist...

[Vullkan]

Isn't Atheism the Same as Communism? Doesn't Atheism Lead to Communism?:

A common complaint made by theists, typically those of the fundamentalist variety, is that atheism and/or humanism are essentially socialist or communist in nature. Thus, atheism and humanism should be rejected since socialism and communism are evil. Evidence indicates that bigotry and prejudice towards atheists in America is due in no small part to anti-communist activism by conservatives Christians in America, so this claimed connection has had serious consequences for American atheists. Atheism and Communism are Not the Same...

[Crn Volk]

A common criticism which atheists raise against religion is how violent religion and religious believers have been in the past. People have slaughtered each other in large numbers either because of differences in religious beliefs or because of other differences which are further justified and intensified through religious rhetoric. Either way, religion has a lot of blood on its hands. Can the same be said for atheists and atheism? Haven't atheists killed more people in the name of atheism than religious theists have killed in the name of their religion? No, because atheism isn't a philosophy or ideology.

Oh but it is. Perhaps Agnosticism is not a philosophy or ideology, but Atheism is and is a core plank in communism for example.

[Vullkan]

If People Fail to Believe in God, They Will Believe in Anything:

Many religious theists think that their God creates or otherwise provides a set of objective standards against which they can measure all their beliefs, attitudes, behaviors, etc. Without their god, they can't imagine how anyone could possibly differentiate true from false beliefs, moral from immoral behaviors, proper from improper attitudes. Atheists who don't believe in any gods are thus capable of believing and doing absolutely anything, having nothing at all to hold them back. Will Atheists Believe in Anything?

[Vullkan]

Oh but it is. Perhaps Agnosticism is not a philosophy or ideology, but Atheism is and is a core plank in communism for example.

Just because you say it does not mean its real .There is absolutely no correlation.

[Vullkan]

Myth:
Are all atheists just communists? Does atheism cause communism?

Response:
A common complaint made by theists, typically those of the fundamentalist variety, is that atheism and/or humanism are essentially socialist or communist in nature. Thus, atheism and humanism should be rejected since socialism and communism are evil. Evidence indicates that bigotry and prejudice towards atheists in America is due in no small part to anti-communist activism by conservatives Christians in America, so this claimed connection has had serious consequences for American atheists.

Perhaps the first thing we should note is the automatic and almost unconscious assumption made on the part of such Christians that their religion is somehow equivalent with capitalism. Any observer of America's Christians Right will not be the least bit surprised by this because conservative Christianity and right-wing politics have become almost synonymous.

Many Christians today act as if certain pre-specified political and economic positions are necessary in order to be a "good Christian." No longer are faith in Jesus and God sufficient; instead, one must also have faith in market capitalism and small government. Since so many of these Christians carry the attitude that anyone who disagrees with them on any one point must disagree with them in everything, it isn't surprising that some assume that an atheist or humanist must be a communist. This isn't helped by the fact that Communism in the Twentieth Century has been almost entirely atheistic in nature

Communism is not, however, inherently atheistic. It is possible to hold communist or socialist economic views while being a theist and it isn't at all uncommon to be an atheist while staunchly defending capitalism — a combination often found among Objectivists and Libertarians, for example. Their existence alone demonstrates, without question, that atheism and communism are not the same thing.

But while the original myth has been refuted, it is interesting to look and see if perhaps the Christians who made it have gotten things backwards. Perhaps it is Christianity which is inherently communistic? After all, there is nothing in the gospels which even so much as suggests a divine preference for capitalism. On the contrary, quite a bit of what Jesus said directly supports many of the emotional foundations of socialism and even communism. He specifically said that that people should give all they could to the poor and that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." More: What Does the Bible Say About Communism & Socialism?

Most recently, we have seen the development of Liberation Theology in Latin America which encourages people to actually practice what Jesus preached: "what you do to the least of my brethren, you do to me." According to Liberation Theology, the Christian Gospel demands "a preferential option for the poor," and that therefore the church should be involved in the struggle for economic and political justice around the world, but particularly in the Third World.

The origins of this movement dates to the Second Vatican Council (1962—65) and the Second Latin American Bishops Conference, held in Medellin, Colombia (1968). It has brought poor people together in comunidades de base, or Christian-based communities, to study the Bible and to fight for social justice. Many Catholic leaders have criticized it for improperly supporting violent revolutions.

Social justice and minimum standards of living become not simply a concern for the individual involved, but for the whole community. It is hardly surprising to see such economic policies developing in a Christian context, since Jesus' ministry was aimed primarily at the poor underclass of society, not the exploitative rich.

Liberation theologians argue that Christian belief and practice ranges along a continuous scale between two forms, one at each end. The opposition of these two poles is quite relevant to this topic. At one end of this scale is the kind of Christianity which in effect serves the establishment — including both political and economic masters — and this kind teaches that reward will be a better life in a life to come. This is the type of Christianity which tends to be very common today and which is, unsurprisingly, typical of those who attack atheism and communism in one breath.

[Crn Volk]

Myth:
Are all atheists just communists? Does atheism cause communism?

Response:
A common complaint made by theists, typically those of the fundamentalist variety, is that atheism and/or humanism are essentially socialist or communist in nature. Thus, atheism and humanism should be rejected since socialism and communism are evil. Evidence indicates that bigotry and prejudice towards atheists in America is due in no small part to anti-communist activism by conservatives Christians in America, so this claimed connection has had serious consequences for American atheists.

Perhaps the first thing we should note is the automatic and almost unconscious assumption made on the part of such Christians that their religion is somehow equivalent with capitalism. Any observer of America's Christians Right will not be the least bit surprised by this because conservative Christianity and right-wing politics have become almost synonymous.

Many Christians today act as if certain pre-specified political and economic positions are necessary in order to be a "good Christian." No longer are faith in Jesus and God sufficient; instead, one must also have faith in market capitalism and small government. Since so many of these Christians carry the attitude that anyone who disagrees with them on any one point must disagree with them in everything, it isn't surprising that some assume that an atheist or humanist must be a communist. This isn't helped by the fact that Communism in the Twentieth Century has been almost entirely atheistic in nature

Communism is not, however, inherently atheistic. It is possible to hold communist or socialist economic views while being a theist and it isn't at all uncommon to be an atheist while staunchly defending capitalism — a combination often found among Objectivists and Libertarians, for example. Their existence alone demonstrates, without question, that atheism and communism are not the same thing.

But while the original myth has been refuted, it is interesting to look and see if perhaps the Christians who made it have gotten things backwards. Perhaps it is Christianity which is inherently communistic? After all, there is nothing in the gospels which even so much as suggests a divine preference for capitalism. On the contrary, quite a bit of what Jesus said directly supports many of the emotional foundations of socialism and even communism. He specifically said that that people should give all they could to the poor and that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." More: What Does the Bible Say About Communism & Socialism?

Most recently, we have seen the development of Liberation Theology in Latin America which encourages people to actually practice what Jesus preached: "what you do to the least of my brethren, you do to me." According to Liberation Theology, the Christian Gospel demands "a preferential option for the poor," and that therefore the church should be involved in the struggle for economic and political justice around the world, but particularly in the Third World.

The origins of this movement dates to the Second Vatican Council (1962—65) and the Second Latin American Bishops Conference, held in Medellin, Colombia (1968). It has brought poor people together in comunidades de base, or Christian-based communities, to study the Bible and to fight for social justice. Many Catholic leaders have criticized it for improperly supporting violent revolutions.

Social justice and minimum standards of living become not simply a concern for the individual involved, but for the whole community. It is hardly surprising to see such economic policies developing in a Christian context, since Jesus' ministry was aimed primarily at the poor underclass of society, not the exploitative rich.

Liberation theologians argue that Christian belief and practice ranges along a continuous scale between two forms, one at each end. The opposition of these two poles is quite relevant to this topic. At one end of this scale is the kind of Christianity which in effect serves the establishment — including both political and economic masters — and this kind teaches that reward will be a better life in a life to come. This is the type of Christianity which tends to be very common today and which is, unsurprisingly, typical of those who attack atheism and communism in one breath.

commie

[Vullkan]

Christianity has the same beliefs as communism.

[Also]

A common criticism which atheists raise against religion is how violent religion and religious believers have been in the past. People have slaughtered each other in large numbers either because of differences in religious beliefs or because of other differences which are further justified and intensified through religious rhetoric. Either way, religion has a lot of blood on its hands. Can the same be said for atheists and atheism? Haven't atheists killed more people in the name of atheism than religious theists have killed in the name of their religion? No, because atheism isn't a philosophy or ideology.

Atheism is a philosophical position about the existence of God: http://www.iep.utm.edu/atheism/


Being killed by an atheist is no more being killed in the name of atheism than being killed by a tall person is being killed in the name of tallness. Communists Don't Kill in the Name of Atheism.

Untrue. First of all being tall is merely a physical characteristic, atheism involves adopting a position and is an ideology, so the things are of a completely different nature. Atheism by itself doesn't make people kill in the name of atheism but when incorporated with other ideologies like communism this is what happened. They were killed in the name of communism, and that (communism) involves atheism.

Communists killed with the specific purpose of spreading atheism and to violently reprehend religious people.


http://youtu.be/GRxgBG-YnPQ

Anyway the question the OP posed is if atheist killed more than religious people, regardless of the reason for it. The answer is yes.

[Methmatician]

The point of this thread is to compared homicides done by religious people vs. those done by atheists.
Again false causation fallacy. And communism does not cause people to become atheists and kill the faithful.

I don't know the exact number of those killed for their religious beliefs. But I don't think the intention of the author is to consider only people killed because they were religious but homicides done by atheists x religious.
So what's the point of this thread other than trying to justify the crimes of the religious?

[Crn Volk]

Again false causation fallacy. And communism does not cause people to become atheists and kill the faithful.



Are you sure about this?

[Methmatician]

Are you sure about this?
Yes. Can you prove it does?

[Also]

Again false causation fallacy. And communism does not cause people to become atheists and kill the faithful.

I couldn't event commit a fallacy there. In what you quoted I was simply stating the point of this topic not making a logic argument. That is the point of this thread.

And communism involves atheism. So communism makes people atheist. That's somewhat like saying Judaism doesn't cause people to believe in God.


So what's the point of this thread other than trying to justify the crimes of the religious?

To state that "the millions who died at the hands of Soviet, Nazi, Polpot, North Korea, China etc. far exceed those killed by religious wars.".

[Crn Volk]

Yes. Can you prove it does?


read here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist%E2%80%93Leninist_atheism


then here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union

begin to get the drift?

[Methmatician]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist%E2%80%93Leninist_atheism
Marxist-Leninism is a form of communism. It does not mean communism makes you an atheist. There are religious socialists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_socialism) after all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union
The Soviet Union is based on Marxist-Leninist ideology which endorsed sate atheism. Yugoslavia, also a socialist state, did not endorse state atheism.

[dude]

I think you are full of shit. Why don't you leave us alone. Then you wonder why we are pissed off.

[Methmatician]

I couldn't event commit a fallacy there. In what you quoted I was simply stating the point of this topic not making a logic argument. That is the point of this thread.
Wrong again. The point of this thread was to try and prove that communists kill more people than religious people because of their atheism, which is false. There is no logic being used here except pseudologic.

And communism involves atheism. So communism makes people atheist. That's somewhat like saying Judaism doesn't cause people to believe in God.
Tell it to the Christian socialists of Europe. And Judaism is a religion which involves a God. Communism is an ideology about the restructuring of society favouring the working class.

To state that "the millions who died at the hands of Soviet, Nazi, Polpot, North Korea, China etc. far exceed those killed by religious wars.".
Nope. See above.

[Also]

Wrong again. The point of this thread was to try and prove that communists kill more people than religious people because of their atheism, which is false. There is no logic being used here except pseudologic.

Tell it to the Christian socialists of Europe. And Judaism is a religion which involves a God. Communism is an ideology about the restructuring of society favouring the working class.

Nope. See above.

When did the OP stated that the reason atheists killed more people was because they were atheists? I haven't said that in this thread myself either. You came up with things with spill "fallacy" like you are making a big point when people weren't even explicitly making that causality connection which you are eager to refute.

The question in the tile is "Have more people died at the hands of Atheists, than believers?" and the answer is yes. Why was it so is a different question, even if it is true that their atheism had absolutely nothing to do with that then the answer is still 'yes' and to say it is so is not a fallacy. The first thing you post was "false cause fallacy" but no one had even mentioned anything about their atheism being the efficient cause of the mass murders. Personally I doubt it had nothing to do with it but I know it wasn't simply a matter of atheism.

Wheter it was or was not can be discussed but I am not going to discuss with you if atheist leaders are heavily overrepresented among mass murderers because it is obvious that they are.

And communism in its original form is clearly atheist. I didn't know there was such a thing such as a "Christian communist" movement but I guess people create weird and contradictory things. And of course all the leaders of the communist regimes we had were atheists themselves.

[Bughuul]

Communists and to a lesser degree Nazis, were/are Atheists. Therefore the millions who died at the hands of Soviet, Nazi, Polpot, North Korea, China etc. far exceed those killed by religious wars. What do you think?

1-Communists weren't necessary atheists. Atheist =/= Irreligious. Stalin used to be an Orthodox Christian. The Castro brothers are Deists. Mao was a Confucianist and so on...
2-Nazis were Christofascists, they sent atheists to the concentration camps and imposed Christian textbooks in the schools.
3-Pol Pot was a Buddhist. Buddhism doesn't worship any deity, but does believe that the soul can reach a deity like status.
4-The North Korean leaders have created their own cults, not a very atheistic thing to do...
5-Millions died in the Communist regimes, none of them was killed for not being an atheist.

Have a nice day.

[Cleitus]

Nazis arent atheist :picard1: