Why There Are Still Atheists

[wvwvw]

Speaking Out
Why There Are Still Atheists
The heavens aren't the only proclaimers (and are sometimes silent).
Shawn Graves | posted 3/28/2011 10:59AM

A lot of ink has been spilled over whether God exists. Within this context, some theists like to point out that "God has made it plain" that he exists, that "God's invisible qualities … have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse" (Rom. 1:19-20). They urge us to remember that the "heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands" (Ps. 19:1). In a recent Christianity Today article, Jim Spiegel cites these passages and writes: "This naturally prompts the question: If the evidence for God is so abundant, then why are there atheists?"

Spiegel asserts that for many atheists, it's not "cool, rational inquiry" that led to their atheism. Rather, in many cases it's complex moral and psychological factors that produce atheism. For example, Spiegel points to research suggesting that some prominent atheists had broken, defective relationships with their fathers. Others live in perpetual disobedience and rebellion—resisting lifestyle changes required upon adopting theism. And still others confess that they just don't want there to be a God. Spiegel contends that immorality has cognitive consequences—it impedes one's ability to recognize that theism is true.

No doubt he's right. Surely some people accept atheism due in part to such powerful motivational factors. For some atheists, it's not merely a matter of evidence. Yet, as Spiegel grants, these motivational explanations don't hold for all atheists. Consider some of the personal essays found in Philosophers Without Gods: Meditations on Atheism and the Secular Life, edited by Louise Antony. Some testify that their move from theism to atheism came at tremendous personal cost and required significant, and painful, existential reorientation. A few even express a deep longing for Christian spirituality. Apparently, these philosophers had plenty of strong psychological motivation to retain or embrace theism. Yet they didn't. Their atheism really did seem to be a matter of evidence and argument.

It's certainly not always a matter of evidence and argument for us theists. We have our own powerful moral and psychological causes of theistic belief. Many desperately want God to exist in order to give meaning and purpose to the universe and to their own lives. Others want God to exist so that order and justice are ultimately restored, so that the wicked get what's coming to them in the end. Still others deeply yearn to be reunited with loved ones in heaven, and belief in God allows them to think that will happen. This is hardly theistic belief resulting from "cool, rational inquiry."

Much more disturbingly, some people are powerfully motivated to retain their theistic convictions because those convictions seem to provide them with a theoretical framework or justification for oppressing other people groups, taking another group's lands, or advancing their own sinister social agendas. (Examples abound. Consider nineteenth century U.S. slavery and Manifest Destiny in addition to some contemporary white supremacist ideologies.) Theism provides them with power. As Cambridge philosopher Simon Blackburn puts it, theism allows some "to throw bigger and better tantrums … to ventilate and amplify emotions of fear, self-righteousness, vengefulness, bitterness, hatred, and self-hatred." According to the apostle Paul, some atheists "suppress the truth by their wickedness" (Rom. 1:18). Unfortunately, some theists seem to affirm the truth for their wickedness.

It's understandable why some people, like Spiegel, read that "the heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands" and subsequently wonder why there are any atheists at all. But reflecting on that passage prompts me to ask a different question: Why should we think that the heavens and the skies are the only ones declaring and proclaiming? We theists declare and proclaim as well. But our proclamations about God—on significant matters like what God is like, what God is doing in the world, and what we ought to do—are often incompatible and unhelpful. Obviously, serious religious disagreement abounds. It's reasonable to suppose that such trenchant disagreement dramatically alters the evidential situation for atheists. And we don't proclaim merely with our mouths. Our lives make declarations and proclamations as well. Plenty of us behave in such a way as to give the world some reason for thinking that God does not exist (at least, not the sort of God we affirm). Maybe the heavens and the skies make plain the existence of God, but we certainly don't.

Pondering Romans 1 and Psalm 19 prompts me to ask another question: Shouldn't we take seriously biblical portrayals of divine silence and hiddenness, too? L'Abri founder and Christian apologist Francis Schaeffer didn't get it exactly right—God is there, but sometimes he is silent. The Psalms are replete with references to divine silence and hiddenness. (See, for example, Psalm 10:1; 22:1-2; 30:7; 44:23-24; and 88:13-14.) The prophet Isaiah puts it bluntly: "Truly you are a God who has been hiding himself, the God and Savior of Israel" (45:15). Saint Anselm, the eleventh century archbishop of Canterbury, asks, "Why did he shut us away from the light, and cover us over with darkness?" Mother Teresa knew this darkness all too well, and it apparently prompted her at some points to doubt the existence of God. In a letter to a friend, she writes, "Jesus has a very special love for you. As for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great that I look and do not see, listen and do not hear." What seems obvious here is that God's existence is not obvious, even to some devout followers. As the seventeenth century French mathematician and philosopher Blaise Pascal writes, "As God is hidden, any religion that does not say that God is hidden is not true . … What can be seen on earth points to neither the total absence nor the obvious presence of divinity, but to the presence of a hidden God." Perhaps some atheists happen to be people particularly impressed by the dreadful silence of God—and unimpressed by the noisy, idle chatter expressed by far too many theists.

The apostle Peter exhorts us to "be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have" (1 Pet. 3:15). And so we should give an answer, making sure to "do this with gentleness and respect," as Peter urges. Unfortunately, gentleness and respect in conversations about the existence of God are hard to come by these days. However, they'd occur far more frequently if we were humble. We should acknowledge that we have our own powerful non-rational motivations for belief. We ought to confess that our religious proclamations haven't been as clear and compelling as the heavens and the skies in proclaiming "the glory of God and the work of his hands," that our lives haven't "made it plain" that God exists. We need to grant that our God is a God who sometimes hides and is silent. Finally, we need to concede that all of this does make a genuine evidential difference for plenty of atheists. Maybe that helps to explain why there are atheists.

Shawn Graves is assistant professor of Philosophy at Cedarville University.

"Speaking Out" is Christianity Today's guest opinion column and (unlike an editorial) does not necessarily represent the opinion of the publication.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/marchweb-only/whytherearestillatheists.html?start=1

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Most atheists are pedophiles or other scum who hate god because they feel god hates them because of their flaws. I say that in all seriousness, but wth the caveat that simple disbelief is not the same as atheists who constantly rail against god.

[LightHouse89]

God is a social construct.

[Also]

The primary factor seems to be the desire of God's inexistence that some people have. For several reasons.

The second seems to be due to erroneous philosophical self-contradictory beliefs who influenced a lot of people like scientism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism) and logical positivism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_positivism) whom for many have an appeal of being rigid logic at first but fail under deeper analysis.

[random]

Most atheists are pedophiles or other scum who hate god because they feel god hates them because of their flaws. I say that in all seriousness, but wth the caveat that simple disbelief is not the same as atheists who constantly rail against god.

Indeed, most catholic priests are secretly atheist.

[King Oskar]

I just don't believe in a magical man. Coincidentally, I am a pedophile. Hide yo childrens!

[Also]

Indeed, most catholic priests are secretly atheist.

Very lame answer: Priests Commit No More Abuse Than Other Males (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?118898-Priests-Commit-No-More-Abuse-Than-Other-Males)

Anyway saying most atheist are pedophiles or other scum is not equivalent to saying most pedophiles or other scum are atheists, which is your implicit assumption. Most swedish are blond but most blonds are not swedish, so a random swedish man is likely to be blond but a random blond is not likely to be swedish.

[King Oskar]

What is quite funny, actually, is the fact that I can recall a Mr. Siegel just before going into high school, he was in the local newspaper, in trouble for sexual harassment. Maybe he added the p for "pedophile" in his name and turned to religion to become a better man in God's eyes. Still hasn't switched out the shit in his brains for something more conducive to rational thought. Shame.

His statement that immortality is part-and-parcel with a lack of a belief in a deity.. Are there are real, valid scientific/social documented studies on this? Where he himself can prove this vague bullshit claim? I wonder what percentage of the criminal population is made up of those brought up in religious house holds, or how many people serving long-term sentences become born-again-christians or whatever you want to call them..

My lack of belief is not even influenced by my emotions, as I have no emotional investment in religion, I don't really define myself or my life in religious terms (or lack thereof).. I also fail to see any evidence ever given that isn't just "well, look around you, look at everything, it's obviously all God's work, you just refuse to believe!" when that isn't actually giving any rational evidence.. It's just bullying me into blindly joining what I see as a cult of personality and nothing more.

Ironically, even just casually discussing this subject with a good friend from Texas, he ended up getting a bit butt hurt over it when he basically prodded ME for my own stance on the general subject, and I innocently impressed upon him that religion to ME is just a set of fables containing valuable lessons to be learned for one's personal growth.

Maybe I worded it a bit more casually, but you get the idea, I wasn't offensive about it. He didn't exactly have a hissy fit, he's a cool guy, but he WAS a bit offended even though he knew I wasn't trying to offend or insult him.. It was like a natural reaction, whereas I wouldn't have taken it personally if the roles were reversed. Seems religious folks are more prone to acting out/reacting in an emotionally biased manner rather than approaching life with a calm neutral rationality like myself and the company I tend to keep.

[Also]

I also fail to see any evidence ever given that isn't just "well, look around you, look at everything, it's obviously all God's work, you just refuse to believe!" when that isn't actually giving any rational evidence.. It's just bullying me into blindly joining what I see as a cult of personality and nothing more.


That is actually a compelling argument although it took me time to realize that. Anyway, there is a series of classical arguments for theism that goes much beyond that, look up for them.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

God is a social construct.

Yes, just like race and IQ and criminality.

[Loki]

The article certainly does not apply to me. I became an atheist due to cool, rational inquiry / logical reasoning.


Most atheists are pedophiles or other scum who hate god because they feel god hates them because of their flaws. I say that in all seriousness, but wth the caveat that simple disbelief is not the same as atheists who constantly rail against god.

What the ... ???

[Methmatician]

I became an atheist because I read a Quran.

[King Oskar]

That is actually a compelling argument although it took me time to realize that. Anyway, there is a series of classical arguments for theism that goes much beyond that, look up for them.

I don't believe that it really is. Obviously some THING created all of this. Some force. I can't say "natural" as opposed to "super natural", because even what we perceive as "beyond" the natural world is existing within in.

It just doesn't have to be a sentient force, nor does it have to even be human. There is simply no concrete evidence that isn't man-made to support any of these beliefs.

It can't be rationalized by a rational human mind because the pictures painted are of a self-aware humanoid being, existing outside of time and space for all eternity, having created everything randomly for no reason at some point in the eternal vastness of timelessness and spacelessness. Is this not incomprehensible to a mortal man who is, much like everything else in existence, bound by time and space?

I think that life itself and existence is one big mind fuck, but maybe that's just me. I think that the most intelligent kind of person is one who knows that they don't have all of the answers. Probably not even half of the answers they're looking for. It doesn't matter, our beliefs will never really be tested for validity, when you're dead, either you end up in front of the pearly gates, or you'll have never existed, in the blink of an eye.

I reckon Religion's got to be one of the most archaic (yet ingenious) mind control tactics snowballed into some universal lie that people have actually come to believe. And it's done us some good, and some bad. I don't hate religion. I actually do have some emotional attachment to Catholicism, though I'm a non-practicing Catholic at best.

[Vullkan]

God is supposed to be omnipotent. If He is omnipotent, then He can create a rock so big that He can't pick it up. If He cannot make a rock like this, then He is not omnipotent. If He can make a rock so big He can't pick it up, then He isn't omnipotent either. Either way demonstrates that God cannot do something. Therefore God is not omnipotent. Therefore God does not exist.

I just proved that god does not exist now will you be my pussycat raine :thumb001:

[Prisoner Of Ice]

God is supposed to be omnipotent. If He is omnipotent, then He can create a rock so big that He can't pick it up. If He cannot make a rock like this, then He is not omnipotent. If He can make a rock so big He can't pick it up, then He isn't omnipotent either. Either way demonstrates that God cannot do something. Therefore God is not omnipotent. Therefore God does not exist.

I just proved that god does not exist now will you be my pussycat raine :thumb001:

Can god make a troll so good he would be fooled? lolol

[Vullkan]

top atheist countries in europe are sweeden france ,norway,netherlands ,denmark,finland .these countries enjoy the highest standart of living and democracy.
Atheist beilive in science and are not a religion its the absence of religion .Science is the salvation and survival of humanity,religion cant cure diseases ,cant feed the poor,cant make us happy and prosperous,Everything in the world works by mathematics,If God has send us a book that book is mathematics and is not written in a paper it is written in our mind.
Thats why people reached the same conclusions in mathematics during history although they never met with each other,in math people searcht the truth in religion people search a prison to the mind.

Religion is cancer to humanity.

[Aviator]

Agnosticism is the only logical belief system. We don't know anything when it comes to the idea of a higher power. I neither reject nor accept the existence of a deity.

[King Oskar]

top atheist countries in europe are sweeden france ,norway,netherlands ,denmark,finland .these countries enjoy the highest standart of living and democracy.


Gotta love my ancestral home lands. I don't think that anyone can really talk shit about a place like Sweden or Norway, if anything nobody knows jack shit about them. They're the best kept secret ever that you wish you could share with everyone, basically. But lots of people are too stupid to care. Same with most really awesome, beautiful music and art and literature. Their loss, I suppose.

I know a fellow Norsk-Americansk whom had a conversation with me about religion. Brought up a question regarding myself as a religious person in conversation, and I was basically forced to politely let him know that I'm currently not practicing a religion. He doesn't treat me like a satanist or anything now, but his initial (subtle) reaction was quite funny to me. He was surely taken aback.

The irony, which I think I'd told him, was/is that Norway's probably as Atheistic as Sweden and that is an ongoing gradual theistic population shift. His fellow Scandinavians can't be all evil, can they.. They have some of if not THE lowest crime rates in the world.

[Also]

God is supposed to be omnipotent. If He is omnipotent, then He can create a rock so big that He can't pick it up. If He cannot make a rock like this, then He is not omnipotent. If He can make a rock so big He can't pick it up, then He isn't omnipotent either. Either way demonstrates that God cannot do something. Therefore God is not omnipotent. Therefore God does not exist.

I just proved that god does not exist now will you be my pussycat raine :thumb001:

Because God is omnipotent a rock that can't be picked is a senseless object, you can't assume both things. If there is an omnipotent being the notion of an unpickable rock is senseless, conversely if you assume there can be an unpickable rock then it is implicitly assumed there isn't an omnipotent being. All omnipotence paradoxes are just a matter of petitio principii (begging the question), to even assume that to talk about an unpickable rock makes sense you are already assuming there is no omnipotent being. And because this becomes a senseless object this is akin to asking "can God create a senseless object? Can God create a square circle or a square with twelve sides?".

When you start with a set of premisses and you reach a contradiction then at least one of your premisses must go, if you are using a single premisse then this one must go, but here you are assuming two premisses, the contradiction you reach simply means that the existence of an omnipotent being and an unpickable rock contradict each other, but it can just means that an unpickable rock can't exist not necessarily that God doesn't.

If you look at academic journals of philosophy of religion where people who are professionaly corcerned with arguments pro and against the existence of God writes the omnipotence paradox never comes up as a serious objection to God's existence. It's clear to them this is just very silly but it remains common in a popular level.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Most atheists are pedophiles or other scum who hate god because they feel god hates them because of their flaws. I say that in all seriousness, but wth the caveat that simple disbelief is not the same as atheists who constantly rail against god.

Not true, God is evil, but just because the people warship him doesn't mean they are evil. Just deceived.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Not true, God is evil, but just because the people warship him doesn't mean they are evil. Just deceived.

Sounds like islam.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Sounds like islam.


LOL its ok, I just found that comment funny. Peace be with you.

[MarkyMark]

top atheist countries in europe are sweeden france ,norway,netherlands ,denmark,finland .these countries enjoy the highest standart of living and democracy.
Atheist beilive in science and are not a religion its the absence of religion .Science is the salvation and survival of humanity,religion cant cure diseases ,cant feed the poor,cant make us happy and prosperous,Everything in the world works by mathematics,If God has send us a book that book is mathematics and is not written in a paper it is written in our mind.
Thats why people reached the same conclusions in mathematics during history although they never met with each other,in math people searcht the truth in religion people search a prison to the mind.

Religion is cancer to humanity.

Causation=/=Coorelation. Are there more atheists in those countries because of the standard of living? Or is the standard of living so high because they are more atheist?

Now, let me ask you this. Did Stalin or Mao ever believe in God?

[StonyArabia]

Causation=/=Coorelation. Are there more atheists in those countries because of the standard of living? Or is the standard of living so high because they are more atheist?

Now, let me ask you this. Did Stalin or Mao ever believe in God?

Stalin did, he was originally being trained as an Orthodox Priest before he joined Communism and the Bolsheviks.

[dude]

Most atheists are pedophiles or other scum who hate god because they feel god hates them because of their flaws. I say that in all seriousness, but wth the caveat that simple disbelief is not the same as atheists who constantly rail against god.
I wonder...were you dropped as a baby?

[Vullkan]

Atheism is not a religion is lack of religion ,people dont waste time thinking about mambo jambo instead think how to make their lives better.
Most of the religiuos countries in the world are underdeveloped and retarded thats a fact just go see all the data.
Religion is useless economically.it gives no profit it only takes profit.it pays no taxes.
Religion is a scam.

[Also]

top atheist countries in europe are sweeden france ,norway,netherlands ,denmark,finland .these countries enjoy the highest standart of living and democracy.
Atheist beilive in science and are not a religion its the absence of religion .Science is the salvation and survival of humanity,religion cant cure diseases ,cant feed the poor,cant make us happy and prosperous,Everything in the world works by mathematics,If God has send us a book that book is mathematics and is not written in a paper it is written in our mind.
Thats why people reached the same conclusions in mathematics during history although they never met with each other,in math people searcht the truth in religion people search a prison to the mind.

Religion is cancer to humanity.

You forgot Estonia who is about the most atheist european country. Don't cherrypick just because their standard is lower and because of their crime. There are also atheist countries outside of Europe with a not so good standard right? Like North Korea and Vietnam. And like Marky said correlation does not implies causation in the first place. And remember how many dozens of time more bloody atheist leaders have been when compared to non-atheist leaders on average.

Atheism has absolutely nothing to do with science in principle, it is just a position about God's existence. That's what defines someone as an atheist, not anything to do with science. It is funny how you easily believe in a rational intelligible universe whose phenomena can be mathematically described but yet believe there is no purpose or reason on that.

Besides you can't turn the consistency of mathematics into a point against religion, it is just an irrelevant point, mathematics is about the only thing that once something is well-stablished it won't change, even history is revised at times, even many scientific theories become superseded, sociology and philoshopy keep changing.

[Stefan]

Why are there still atheists (and why are we becoming more numerous?) Because we are allowed to use reason and share our rational ideas without being policed by theocracies (i.e Catholic Church, Caliphates.)

[Also]

I don't believe that it really is. Obviously some THING created all of this. Some force. I can't say "natural" as opposed to "super natural", because even what we perceive as "beyond" the natural world is existing within in.

It just doesn't have to be a sentient force, nor does it have to even be human. There is simply no concrete evidence that isn't man-made to support any of these beliefs.

It can't be rationalized by a rational human mind because the pictures painted are of a self-aware humanoid being, existing outside of time and space for all eternity, having created everything randomly for no reason at some point in the eternal vastness of timelessness and spacelessness. Is this not incomprehensible to a mortal man who is, much like everything else in existence, bound by time and space?

I think that life itself and existence is one big mind fuck, but maybe that's just me. I think that the most intelligent kind of person is one who knows that they don't have all of the answers. Probably not even half of the answers they're looking for. It doesn't matter, our beliefs will never really be tested for validity, when you're dead, either you end up in front of the pearly gates, or you'll have never existed, in the blink of an eye.

I reckon Religion's got to be one of the most archaic (yet ingenious) mind control tactics snowballed into some universal lie that people have actually come to believe. And it's done us some good, and some bad. I don't hate religion. I actually do have some emotional attachment to Catholicism, though I'm a non-practicing Catholic at best.

If you agree that something created all of this then you have two options, of which one must be true and the other false. Is this thing endowed with intelligence or is this thing not endowed with intelligence?

Anthony Flew who was an atheist philosopher for decades and belived in God by the end of his life said:

"But (I find it hard to write with restraint about this obscurantist refusal on the part of Dawkins) he makes no mention of Einstein’s most relevant report: namely, that the integrated complexity of the world of physics has led him to believe that there must be a Divine Intelligence behind it. (I myself think it obvious that if this argument is applicable to the world of physics then it must be hugely more powerful if it is applied to the immeasurably more complicated world of biology.)"

Our universe looks nothing like we would expect if the cause of it was not endowed with intelligence. If you walk by the margins of the sea in a desert beach, even if you believe no one has been there but you and you are the only person to have walked there, but ahead of you, you see a sand castle will you not believe someone made it? But a sand castle is just some pre-existing grains of sand reordained into a certain form. How can the universe being so rationaly ordained, with much more complex structures and fine-tuned to allow everything there is in it, including human life, be purely a byproduct of unintelligent blind forces?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I wonder...were you dropped as a baby?

Nope, it's the truth. Nobody goes to speeches about atheism and about how bad religion is unless they have something wrong with them. Every pedo out there is either a star wars or star trek fan as well, especially star trek. Wonder why? Well, it's easy to figure out when star trek 'philosophy' is basically absolute lack of moral judgement on people. Of course that appeals to pedos, just like they are all atheists (the overexaggerated ones in the church, are also obviously not really christians either).

[dude]

Nope, it's the truth. Nobody goes to speeches about atheism and about how bad religion is unless they have something wrong with them. Every pedo out there is either a star wars or star trek fan as well, especially star trek. Wonder why? Well, it's easy to figure out when star trek 'philosophy' is basically absolute lack of moral judgement on people. Of course that appeals to pedos, just like they are all atheists (the overexaggerated ones in the church, are also obviously not really christians either).
Does this mean the catholic priests that abused children were Atheists too? What about the child sex abuses reported from Protestant churches? Or it just simply shows that your theories are just mere uneducated opinion driven by typical religious blindness?
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2007/06/18/80877.htm

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Does this mean the catholic priests that abused children were Atheists too? What about the child sex abuses reported from Protestant churches?

Obviously. Do you think someone is a christian if they molest little kids? Obviously it's not that they are a devout person who just happens to be a pedophile. They are a sick scumbag who realizes that being in the clergy is a great cover for their twisted inclinations. Again and again it's shown that there are fewer per capita among priests than the general population, and also that (like with most accusations of pedo crap) most of them are false anyway. But people still latch onto it, especially BBC. Of course it turns out BBC is more full of pedos than anyone they report on, and atheists.

Like I said not all people who disbelieve in god are pedos (that's being agnostic not atheist), but you don't become someone who talks about it all day unless something is massively wrong with you. Much like someone who talks about NOTHING but jews their whole day, every day.



Or it just simply shows that your theories are just mere uneducated opinion driven by typical religious blindness?
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2007/06/18/80877.htm

Here we go again. 145 IQ, math and CS degrees, been programming C++ since it was invented, and C and Assembly before that. I even know some fag languages like java and perl pretty well.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Also, I really object to citing retarded news sources as education. More like propaganda. There is little oversight to news, and tons of political bias no matter what the source.

It's not that I failed to consume the propaganda, I just reject its validity. Everyone should take everything they read with a grain of salt.

[Smaug]

Causation=/=Coorelation. Are there more atheists in those countries because of the standard of living? Or is the standard of living so high because they are more atheist?

Now, let me ask you this. Did Stalin or Mao ever believe in God?

Hitler did.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Hitler did.

Yes he was a devout catholic, that's why he sent all the catholics to death camps.

[Vullkan]

north korea thinks kim is their god .China has their party as their god.I fail to see religion helpful for a country development.
Religion has been cause of millions of death .Religion cant solve any problem that it faces today.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

There's no country without religion, it's just a free for all like the world is turning into now. See how that is working out.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

One of the biggest problems of Roman empire was the upper classes refusing to marry and staying bachelors forever. Sound familiar to some atheist womanizers out there?

[wvwvw]

Not true, God is evil, but just because the people warship him doesn't mean they are evil. Just deceived.


Sounds like islam.

According to the Quran, "Allah is the best of deceivers" (3:54; 8:30).

By contrast, the Bible claims that Satan is the father of lies (John 8:44).

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

According to the Quran, "Allah is the best of deceivers" (3:54; 8:30).

By contrast, the Bible claims that Satan is the father of lies (John 8:44).

According to the book of satan, God is evil too. How do I know the book of Satan is lying? You know satanic warshippers believe he is actually a good guy right? He doesn't actually kill anyone either. He decieves them in which god than gives him his fate. He was like a spy for god to see if they are bent on treason or lose faith.

[Hithaeglir]

Because some people are more intelligent than others.

[wvwvw]

Allah is also whimsical:

“Allah leads astray whom he pleases and guides whom he pleases" 14:4).

It makes no sense to believe that God acts whimsically. It makes no sense that he guide one person and refuse to guide another person. Men can accept the divine guidance or reject it but the guidance should be there for anyone at anytime. The choice is always with the man and not with God.

It is clear that Muhammad had no clue of divine mysteries and his idea of God was that of a despot ruler. Someone like Saddam Hussein who would do as he pleased and would reward anyone beyond his merits and punish anyone as he willed and there was no authority above him to question him or stop him. It is said that Saddam used to jail and kill those who laughed at the jokes make about him. Isn't this how Muhammad envisioned his Allah? What Quran says will happen to those who ridicule Allah?

Muhammad’s brain was not evolved enough to understand beyond that. He had a primitive mind. God to him was just a whimsical despot given to ire and to pleasures – one who would be pleased if you worshipped him and offended if you ignored him. This man did not have any understanding of the spiritual realm. His paradise and hell are all physical places. His brain capacity was extremely limited. All he knew was physical pleasure and pains and with that he tried to manipulate his foolhardy ignorant followers. He was a man of little comprehension and no insight into hidden mysteries of life.

[wvwvw]

According to the book of satan, God is evil too. How do I know the book of Satan is lying? You know satanic warshippers believe he is actually a good guy right? He doesn't actually kill anyone either. He decieves them in which god than gives him his fate. He was like a spy for god to see if they are bent on treason or lose faith.

"By their fruit you'll recognize them". What are the fruits of Satanism?

[ProN00b]

top atheist countries in europe are sweeden france ,norway,netherlands ,denmark,finland .these countries enjoy the highest standart of living and democracy.
Atheist beilive in science and are not a religion its the absence of religion .Science is the salvation and survival of humanity,religion cant cure diseases ,cant feed the poor,cant make us happy and prosperous,Everything in the world works by mathematics,If God has send us a book that book is mathematics and is not written in a paper it is written in our mind.
Thats why people reached the same conclusions in mathematics during history although they never met with each other,in math people searcht the truth in religion people search a prison to the mind.

Religion is cancer to humanity.

You're my man!

[albosomething]

sometimes (and by sometimes I mean always ) its pointless discussing religion and personal beliefs.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

"By their fruit you'll recognize them". What are the fruits of Satanism?

I honestly didnt read or have. but Satanists describe Good as evil and Satan God

here is an example

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOEMh0pm6ZM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHe15w8-Oeo

just bumped into this may be interest. Never heard of such a thing

http://www.acts17-11.com/dialogs_morningstar.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/morning-star.html

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

bump

[wvwvw]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Sy2GwTuvFB0/UoDXHrrbb9I/AAAAAAAAPF0/KNGLHGVP9R8/s1600/atheist-kill.jpg

[Selurong]

God is supposed to be omnipotent. If He is omnipotent, then He can create a rock so big that He can't pick it up. If He cannot make a rock like this, then He is not omnipotent. If He can make a rock so big He can't pick it up, then He isn't omnipotent either. Either way demonstrates that God cannot do something. Therefore God is not omnipotent. Therefore God does not exist.

I just proved that god does not exist now will you be my pussycat raine

You are a load of bull, do you know that?

FYI: Mathematicians are the scientists who are most likely to believe in God.

Source: http://www.transformingteachers.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=193&Itemid=173


And please do tell me how progressive Atheism is, because Russia and China are Atheist-Communist societies and in between the people eating their own babies (Fetus soup in China) and people sent to die in the camps of Siberia (For their religion) because people are just soulless resources [Since atheism disavows the existence of souls].

Due to this, Russia and China has only succeeded in being a nuisance to the western world. If you are so happy with Atheism why don't we just ship you to North Korea, the country of the world with largest percentage of atheists in the total population. And let's see you extort the virtues of Atheism there.

I'm fucking tired of all the Christ-hating retards. We should just ship all the mentality retarded Atheists to North Korea so that they will extol the wonders of Atheism under Kim Jung-Il.

It's ok if you thumb me down, I am willing to die for the Christian truth. You Atheists aren't even willing to die for your atheism. What is there to reward you for your Atheism anyway? An endless abyss of material existence progressing further and further into entropy and obscurity.

Such is the bleak and disgusting world-view of your suicidal cosmology.

You can back to me when you grow a brain oh people who love to display their soullessness.

[King Oskar]

If you agree that something created all of this then you have two options, of which one must be true and the other false. Is this thing endowed with intelligence or is this thing not endowed with intelligence?

Anthony Flew who was an atheist philosopher for decades and belived in God by the end of his life said:

"But (I find it hard to write with restraint about this obscurantist refusal on the part of Dawkins) he makes no mention of Einstein’s most relevant report: namely, that the integrated complexity of the world of physics has led him to believe that there must be a Divine Intelligence behind it. (I myself think it obvious that if this argument is applicable to the world of physics then it must be hugely more powerful if it is applied to the immeasurably more complicated world of biology.)"

Our universe looks nothing like we would expect if the cause of it was not endowed with intelligence. If you walk by the margins of the sea in a desert beach, even if you believe no one has been there but you and you are the only person to have walked there, but ahead of you, you see a sand castle will you not believe someone made it? But a sand castle is just some pre-existing grains of sand reordained into a certain form. How can the universe being so rationaly ordained, with much more complex structures and fine-tuned to allow everything there is in it, including human life, be purely a byproduct of unintelligent blind forces?

Good point. I don't know, I'm a mere man, much like yourself. It has no relevance on my life.. I just believe that there is positivity and negativity and neutrality. Spread the kind of energy that YOU believe is right. Simple concept that we all agree upon for the most part, regardless of one's beliefs, no?

I do know that if I'm standing before the pearly gates when I close my eyes in THIS plane of existence for the last time, that my only "sin" will be not believing. At least I've never murdered or violated someone. Most likely, I'll just cease to exist. I enjoy my life in the mean time, for the beautiful and crazy thing that it is.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

You are a load of bull, do you know that?

FYI: Mathematicians are the scientists who are most likely to believe in God.

Source: http://www.transformingteachers.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=193&Itemid=173

Few people seem to realize this. Doctors, too.

The ones most likely to be atheists are liberal arts majors and sociologists. That should tell you who is more logical.

There's actually more people who believe in telepathy than jesus but atheists try to make it out like they are "educating". In their minds "educating" is politically nullifying any non leftists.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

top atheist countries in europe are sweeden france ,norway,netherlands ,denmark,finland .these countries enjoy the highest standart of living and democracy.
Atheist beilive in science and are not a religion its the absence of religion .Science is the salvation and survival of humanity,religion cant cure diseases ,cant feed the poor,cant make us happy and prosperous,Everything in the world works by mathematics,If God has send us a book that book is mathematics and is not written in a paper it is written in our mind.
Thats why people reached the same conclusions in mathematics during history although they never met with each other,in math people searcht the truth in religion people search a prison to the mind.

Religion is cancer to humanity.

Also top places importing african negroes and turks to replace them :lol: And atheist leftist shitbags are the ones who think it's a GOOD idea :lol:

Basically they are gullible, brainwashed sheep. The power of western might has let limp wristed manboys multiply beyond reason and now europe is paying the price.

[Svipdag]

To some atheists, who, BTW, cannot be swayed by any argument, the non-existence of God, which can NOT be proved, is an article of faith. Paradoxically, atheism requires at least as much faith as any religion. No atheist has ever DISproved the existence of God. Therefore, all atheists must perforce take the fundamental tenet of their belief on faith.

As an agnostic, I admit my ignorance., I can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. I cannot, therefore, justifiably make any dogmatic statements on either side of the question. I don't have enough faith to be an atheist, were I so inclined.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I think everyone should be a little doubtful. Mostly faith is there for yourself, if that makes any sense, especially when things are bad to keep you going.

[King Oskar]

I think everyone should be a little doubtful. Mostly faith is there for yourself, if that makes any sense, especially when things are bad to keep you going.

I don't disagree, but what's the point of vehemently attacking all atheists as a group? Isn't that the same thing as those atheists who deny the existence of a God because it suits their sinful lifestyle?

And haven't you read the threads people make in regards to the immigrant situation in those places? I could've sworn I've seen you respond to a few of them, in the threads list. People are not all welcoming them with open arms. Posters on this board would sooner claim it was due to political infiltration or something. The liberals aren't the ones opening the flood gates, but I'm sure they may in their misguided ways, defend and enable them.

I'm more like Svip. I don't think I've actually attacked anyone's beliefs in this thread, just defend my own stance when it was attacked. I think that there were a lot of ignorant remarks in Saludong's post, no offense, man. But just because someone believes we probably don't have "souls", doesn't de-value a human life. It's not one extreme or the other, that's a crazy black and white way of thinking.