Germans Stick to the Ethnic Definition More Than Any Other European Nation

[Zyklop]

"Germans Stick to the Ethnic Definition More Than Any Other European Nation"

Germany's real problem isn't "honor" killers or skinheads. Instead, what keeps this increasingly diverse nation from gaining a strong sense of social cohesion is its self-made confusion over what it means to be German in the first place, Gregory Rodriguez (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.newamerica.net/index.cfm?pg=Publications&SecID=30&contactID=62) writes in a great article in the Los Angeles Times (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-rodriguez28may28,1,490043.column?coll=la-util-op-ed&ctrack=1&cset=true).
He quotes Barbara John, professor of European anthropology at Humboldt University in Berlin, who says: "We stick to the ethnic definition probably more than any other European nation." He writes:
Indeed, long before Germany's terrible experiment with ethnic supremacy during the Nazi years, Germans had a narrow view of themselves as a people. Unlike, say, the French, who acknowledge that their culture and language derive from the Romans and that they are akin to other Latin peoples, the Germans see themselves as unique.
What he (and many others as well) wonder about: Have the Germans learned from the nazi-period and World war II?:
Even after World War II, when West Germans did everything in their power to rid their culture of chauvinism and racism, they left intact a citizenship law that was based on blood kinship rather than on place of birth. That meant that the children of Turkish guest workers, born in Germany, were not automatic citizens, yet an ethnic German from Romania whose family had never resided in contemporary Germany was.
(...)
It wasn't until 2000 that a more open citizenship law took effect. In arguing for a territory-based notion of citizenship, then-Interior Minister Otto Schily proclaimed that Germany needed to rise above "the destructive principle of ethnocracy."
Six years on, Germans are only beginning to differentiate between their ethnic and civic identities. Ethnic Germans still tend to look on non-ethnic Germans as auslander, or foreigners. Even the media, when they acknowledge minorities as German citizens, use tortured phrases, describing someone as a "Turk who carries a German passport," for example. Not surprisingly, such marginalization has negative consequences.
Rodriguez believes that the shaping of Germany's future identity lies in popular culture. He mentions a popular sitcom "Turkish for Beginners," and Turkish-German novelist Feridun Zaimoglu who says:
"The truth is you can't talk anymore of a foreign population and a native population, as if they were enemies. As I understand myself, I am a German," Zaimoglu says. "I love my country, but I don't make a Wagner opera out of it. I don't try to define what it means to be German. I just live it."

>> read the whole article in the Los Angeles Times (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-rodriguez28may28,1,490043.column?coll=la-util-op-ed&ctrack=1&cset=true)
http://www.antropologi.info/blog/ant...hnic_definitio (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.antropologi.info/blog/anthropology/2006/we_germans_stick_to_the_ethnic_definitio)

[Arne]

And a swine will always be a swine and never be a sheep whatever it rankles.
Foreigners can never be native.
The Problem is not on our Side.
Immigrants divide themselve from our Culture and they don´t feel anything for this Country.
They mocking and bashing Germans in Schools,steal and don´t feel any sense of guilt.

[The Khagan]

And a swine will always be a swine and never be a sheep whatever it rankles.
Foreigners can never be native.
The Problem is not on our Side.
Immigrants divide themselve from our Culture and they don´t feel anything for this Country.
They mocking and bashing Germans in Schools,steal and don´t feel any sense of guilt.

Sounds like a bit of a negative feedback loop, don't you think? The way the immigrants behave seems very reactionary.

Being completely objective, and some speculation based on my experience with minorities in the US.

It seems that the German volksgeist has always been one of exclusiveness in regards to any foreigner, so ethnic minorities would never fully have a chance to assimilate to German society because of that exclusiveness and thus react in a negative way and that results in that behavior. Has nothing to do with their nature as a people, just circumstances.

Exclusiveness isn't a bad thing, it's a peoples right to be able to keep their ethnicity intact.

[Jarl]

Gregory Rodriguez writes in a great article in the Los Angeles Times.

...???

[Brännvin]

From the Mexifornia!

[Arne]

Sounds like a bit of a negative feedback loop, don't you think? The way the immigrants behave seems very reactionary.

Being completely objective, and some speculation based on my experience with minorities in the US.

It seems that the German volksgeist has always been one of exclusiveness in regards to any foreigner, so ethnic minorities would never fully have a chance to assimilate to German society because of that exclusiveness and thus react in a negative way and that results in that behavior. Has nothing to do with their nature as a people, just circumstances.

Exclusiveness isn't a bad thing, it's a peoples right to be able to keep their ethnicity intact.
They don´t assimilate and don´t feel the need to.
You are not in with immigrants and know about the Problems.
The Americans have the same problems. :D
Don´t they judge against Islam ?
They are a ´lil bit biased in my opinion.
We have more than enough minarets even if we don´t need them.

[Svanhild]

It seems that the German volksgeist has always been one of exclusiveness in regards to any foreigner, so ethnic minorities would never fully have a chance to assimilate to German society because of that exclusiveness.
And that's the only proper mindset.

[Wulfhere]

Perhaps one of the reasons the Germans have always been so touchy about it is that they're a mixture of quite different types - North Sea, Central European, and others.

[Arne]

Perhaps one of the reasons the Germans have always been so touchy about it is that they're a mixture of quite different types - North Sea, Central European, and others.
But still less than in Spain.
The Germans wouldn´t be so if the Allies hadn´t invaded our fertile Land of Culture.
Must be also the Reason why so many infiltrated this Country.

[Zyklop]

Perhaps one of the reasons the Germans have always been so touchy about it is that they're a mixture of quite different types - North Sea, Central European, and others.
Shouldn't that make the English even more touchy, being a mixture of Iberians, Celts, Romans, Anglo-Saxons and French?

[Wulfhere]

Shouldn't that make the English even more touchy, being a mixture of Iberians, Celts, Romans, Anglo-Saxons and French?

So why aren't we so touchy, then?

The Germans give ethnic nationalism a bad name.

[Arne]

So why aren't
The Germans give ethnic nationalism a bad name.
This must be a joke..
Nice Try.. ;)
But not in relation with the Brits. even not comparable with the slavery and inhumanity what they done.
They had way more colonies than the Germans ;)

[Óttar]

As I understand myself, I am a German," Zaimoglu says. "I love my country, but I don't make a Wagner opera out of it.
Maybe that's the problem. How can one ever hope to be a German if they don't feel an intense need to compose a Wagnerian Opera!? :D

[Wulfhere]

This must be a joke..
Nice Try.. ;)
But not in relation with the Brits. even not comparable with the slavery and inhumanity what they done.
They had way more colonies than the Germans ;)

The British Empire, like all empires, can be accused of such things. But at the same time it spread civilisation around the world. Germany has never done anything like that.

[Fortis in Arduis]

This must be a joke..
Nice Try.. ;)
But not in relation with the Brits. even not comparable with the slavery and inhumanity what they done.
They had way more colonies than the Germans ;)

Please desist from employing wrong capitalisations. :thumb001:

[Jarl]

even not comparable with the slavery and inhumanity what they done.


Speaking of inhumanity... did the Brits manufacture soap from humans or used gas chambers?

[Zyklop]

So why aren't we so touchy, then?
Probably for the same reasons you don't mind your country being ruined beyond repair. Germans may give ethnic nationalism a bad name but at least we will survive longer than you.

The British Empire, like all empires, can be accused of such things. But at the same time it spread civilisation around the world. And now you are getting the payback. Looks like a good deal.
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/10_02/immigDM0910_468x322.jpg

[Óttar]

@ Celti

Germans carried out genocide against the Namibians under the 2nd Reich in German Southwest Africa. It was called the Vernichtungsbefehl.

@ Wulfhere

The Germans never spread civilisation?

Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Goethe, Schiller, Schopenhauer, Kant, Hegel, Nietzsche, German Southwest Africa, industry, pharmacology, science, Germans built the Spanish Armada and developed mining for the Spaniards, the list of German contributions to humanity is endless.

[Arne]

Speaking of inhumanity... did the Brits manufacture soap from humans or used gas chambers?

Yes they do..

RbqhupbDlPM


@ Celti

Germans carried out genocide against the Namibians under the 2nd Reich in German Southwest Africa. It was called the Vernichtungsbefehl.


What about the genocide about the Germans done by the Allies and the Polluting of our Race ?
They stealed our Culture .

[Nationalitist]

So suddenly, in many such boards, "ethnic" means the same thing as "racial"? Strange evolution of meaning of some words.

[Grumpy Cat]

The Germans never spread civilisation?

Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Goethe, Schiller, Schopenhauer, Kant, Hegel, Nietzsche, German Southwest Africa, industry, pharmacology, science, Germans built the Spanish Armada and developed mining for the Spaniards, the list of German contributions to humanity is endless.

You forgot about the printing press.

[Murphy]

You forgot about the printing press.

And peanut butter.

Regards,
The Papist.

[Grumpy Cat]

And peanut butter.

Regards,
The Papist.


The Aztecs invented peanut butter (although American Blacks claim that invention).

[poiuytrewq0987]

The Aztecs invented peanut butter (although American Blacks claim that invention).

It's a recipe, not an invention.

[Grumpy Cat]

It's a recipe, not an invention.

Well whatever, Aztecs came up with that yummy recipe.

[Svanhild]

The Germans give ethnic nationalism a bad name.
Let me put it like this: At least we tried ethnic nationalism. England drowns with its civic nationalism and lax idea of citizenship. The former colonies of the worldwide empire eat the originator on its own territory.
I feel attachment to English-born people and I'm willed to condone the events of the world wars but backward enmity is manifest in people like Wulfhere.


The British Empire, like all empires, can be accused of such things. But at the same time it spread civilisation around the world. Germany has never done anything like that.
It's enough to spread civilisation among German languaged territories and adjacent countries. German culture and German science is more than successfull in this wise. German contributions to philosophy, technology, development and science are omnipresent and not worth discussing.


You forgot about the printing press.
And computers, cars, spacecrafts, helicopters...:embarrassed

[Wulfhere]

Let me put it like this: At least we tried ethnic nationalism. England drowns with its civic nationalism and lax idea of citizenship. The former colonies of the worldwide empire eat the originator on its own territory.
I feel attachment to English-born people and I'm willed to condone the events of the world wars but backward enmity is manifest in people like Wulfhere.


It's enough to spread civilisation among German languaged territories and adjacent countries. German culture and German science is more than successfull in this wise. German contributions to philosophy, technology, development and science are omnipresent and not worth discussing.


And computers, cars, spacecrafts, helicopters...:embarrassed

Zyklon B...

[Jarl]

Yes they do..

RbqhupbDlPM


What about the genocide about the Germans done by the Allies and the Polluting of our Race ?
They stealed our Culture .


This was after some of the Germans brought us the civilisation:


http://i50.tinypic.com/2rekviu.jpg

http://www.thetorah.tv/library/ww2-jews-killed-4_files/image001.jpg

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/belson_3.jpg

http://bettman.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/josef-mengele-1935.jpg

http://iconicphotos.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/2wwbruskina2.jpg

http://blog.oregonlive.com/opinion_impact/2009/02/bergenbelsen.jpeg

gas chamber:

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/othercamps/images/majdanek%20Gas%20chambers%20rear%20view.jpg

with that peculiar sense of humour:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Auschwitz-Work_Set_Free.jpg

[Zyklop]

The British Empire, like all empires, can be accused of such things. But at the same time it spread civilisation around the world. Germany has never done anything like that.
How can you say that in a thread in which a Pole uses the previously unknown word "soap"?

[Jarl]

How can you say that in a thread in which a Pole uses the previously unknown word "soap"?

You might tell jokes and talk of Polish and Czech prostitutes, but you will not shrug it off and change history. These photographs speak for themselves, you "Kultur-trager"...

[Zyklop]

You might tell jokes and talk of Polish and Czech prostitutes, but you will not shrug it off and change history. These photographs speak for themselves, you "Kultur-trager"...Rest assured it is the first time I see such pictures. ;)

[Wulfhere]

Rest assured it is the first time I see such pictures. ;)

Isn't that what they said at Nuremburg?

[Daos]

This was after some of the Germans brought us the civilisation:


http://i50.tinypic.com/2rekviu.jpg

http://www.thetorah.tv/library/ww2-jews-killed-4_files/image001.jpg

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/belson_3.jpg

http://blog.oregonlive.com/opinion_impact/2009/02/bergenbelsen.jpeg

Are you saying the Germans intentionally infected the jewish inmates with Typhus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhus)?


gas chamber:

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/othercamps/images/majdanek%20Gas%20chambers%20rear%20view.jpg

Yes, used for the disinfection of clothing. What's your point?

[Jarl]

Isn't that what they said at Nuremburg?

Undoubtedly German input into European culture has been one of the greatest. Particularly in the more recent times. The short list of composers Ottar mentioned before shows one of the many virtues of this input. But it is not just the architecture, music and opera. Yet there is also the burden of war and crimes which is also great. Smaller nations never played a major role and never had such an impact on Europe - both positive and negative. And it does not mean they are inherently inferior.

It is disturbing whenever someone tries to depict their nations as superior culture-bearers completely ignoring and disregarding the past atrocities. Culture-bearers... de facto a master race. It really reminds me of this American war clip Asega posted. Some really do believe they are the master race. I hope they don't also believe this constitutes an excuse for the crimes that were commited.


Are you saying the Germans intentionally infected the jewish inmates with?

Yes, used for the disinfection of clothing. What's your point?

First of all it should be Jewish, not "jewish". Secondly... what are you trying to say?

That 10 million victims of Nazi genocide were all typhoid infections?

That gas chambers and Holocaust are an invention and propaganda of Allies and Jews?

That there were no death camps and these pictures of dead civillians are fake?

I am not sure what you meant by those two questions. If you want to say something then say it openly.

[Zyklop]

It is disturbing whenever someone tries to depict their nations as superior culture-bearers
It's interesting whenever someone posts something little positive about Germany, a Polak jumps in to remind everyone of German atrocities. :thumbs up

[Wulfhere]

Undoubtedly German input into European culture has been one of the greatest. Particularly in the more recent times. The short list of composers Ottar mentioned before shows one of the many virtues of this input. But it is not just the architecture, music and opera. Yet there is also the burden of war and crimes which is also great. Smaller nations never played a major role and never had such an impact on Europe - both positive and negative. And it does not mean they are inherently inferior.

It is disturbing whenever someone tries to depict their nations as superior culture-bearers completely ignoring and disregarding the past atrocities. Culture-bearers... de facto a master race. It really reminds me of this American war clip Asega posted. Some really do believe they are the master race. I hope they don't also believe this constitutes an excuse for the crimes that were commited.

I find most German Classical music as dull as dishwater, anyway, but it's all a matter of taste I suppose. The point, as you say, is if they're going to harp on about past contributions they must also mention past atrocities, of which the Germans have been singularly famous.

Talking of small nations contributing to the arts and sciences all out of proportion to their size, what about England?

[Daos]

First of all it should be Jewish. not "jewish". What are you trying to say? That 10 million victims of Nazi genocide were all typhoid? That gas chambers and Holocaust is an invention and propaganda of Allies and Jews???

I just told you what I saw in those pictures. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Jarl]

I just told you what I saw in those pictures. Nothing more, nothing less.

Well this is what you saw:


http://www.dac.neu.edu/holocaust/images/rear%20side%20of%20a%20gas%20chamber.jpg

and this is what it was:

Majdanek, (Lubin) Poland. The back side of a gas chamber. The furnace
on the right was used to generate carbon monoxide for gassing prisoners.

And not just in Majadanek but also in Auschwitz. Like here:

http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m3/jan2008/6/1/BFDCF0B1-BA53-7E93-1D29DD4289A82FF5.jpg

They were not "disinfecting" clothes in there.



It's interesting whenever someone posts something little positive about Germany, a Polak jumps in to remind everyone of German atrocities. :thumbs up

That is because we Poles, had a fair share and taste of your civilisational mission. And at every given opportunity people like you, some of whom might even be the descendants of the murderers, will not hesitate to slander and spit on the living children of the victims. Not even now. 65 years after the war.

Yet they are the first ones to brag about their civilisational superiority and at the same time the first ones to call the victims a "worthless nation" - just like their grandfathers did when they were executing thousands of "worthless" civilians years ago...exactly the same. Nothing has changed. You are a living testament to this fact.

[Wulfhere]

It's interesting whenever someone posts something little positive about Germany, a Polak jumps in to remind everyone of German atrocities. :thumbs up

Considering what Germany did to Poland, let's hope they keep doing it forever more, to prevent people like you trying to deny it.

[Daos]

http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m3/jan2008/6/1/BFDCF0B1-BA53-7E93-1D29DD4289A82FF5.jpg

They were not "disinfecting" clothes in there.

That is just like trying to prove a murder happened just by showing the room in which it took place without any further evidence, hence it is useless.

[Jarl]

That is just like trying to prove a murder happened just by showing the room in which it took place without any further evidence, hence it is useless.

Let me ask you a simple question. Do you dismiss the accounts of death camp prisoners and Holocaust survivors as lies? Do you dismiss the Nurmberg trials as an allied set up, Nazi testiomonies and trial protocols as forged?

[The Ripper]

I think it would be good for all to admit that terrible atrocities happened, but that they cannot be used for political means today, for example to cow Europeans into submission and self-denial.

[Zyklop]

Considering what Germany did to Poland, let's hope they keep doing it forever more, to prevent people like you trying to deny it.Since you mentioned Nuremberg above:
"... I shall not defend myself against accusers,
whom I deny the right to level charges. I shall
not argue about accusations dealing with things
that are internal German matters and therefore
are no business of outsiders.

"I shall not comment on remarks intended to sully
the honor of myself or German people as a whole.
I consider such aspersions of our opponents as
a badge of honor."
Conclusion Statement of Rudolf Heß at the Nuremberg trial. He didn't sound that lunatic back in the day to me.

[Jarl]

No remorse. No regrets. Not while exterminating scores of innocent people. Not at the trial. Badge of honour? A criminal's excuse. Those millions murdered by the regime he was a part of are his true badge.

[Daos]

Let me ask you a simple question.

Two questions actually.:p


Do you dismiss the accounts of death camp prisoners and Holocaust survivors as lies?

Yes, especially since many are self-contradictory. If I sue you now for killing my grandmother without having any proof, just my testimony, will I win?


Do you dismiss the Nurmberg trials as an allied set up, Nazi testiomonies and trial protocols as forged?

The atrocities committed by the Allies were simply ignored, so yes, the trials were subjective. As for the testimonials, I bet I could get you admit you're a homosexual paedophile under torture.;)

[Jäger]

The British Empire, like all empires, can be accused of such things. But at the same time it spread civilisation around the world. Germany has never done anything like that.

The point, as you say, is if they're going to harp on about past contributions they must also mention past atrocities, of which the Germans have been singularly famous.

It is disturbing whenever someone tries to depict their nations as superior culture-bearers completely ignoring and disregarding the past atrocities.
We value our achievements as things which brought advantage to our people, not to others.
In thus, we condemn our misbehaving in certain situations as failures which did not bring us an advantage, but we still recognize them, when they were inherently designed to do so, and thus were serving tools of our Volk.
As is the myth of the holocaust, a serving tool for the jewish people.

[Jarl]

Two questions actually.:p

Yes, especially since many are self-contradictory. If I sue you now for killing my grandmother without having any proof, just my testimony, will I win?

The atrocities committed by the Allies were simply ignored, so yes, the trials were subjective. As for the testimonials, I bet I could get you admit you're a homosexual paedophile under torture.;)

So... why do you think/believe that genocide survivors are liars "without any proof"? You think that they, THOUSANDS OF death camps victims, are all a part of anti-German conspiracy and all decided to make up Holocaust and genocide to claim the money? And Nurmberg testimonies were beaten out of the Nazis under tortures?


As is the myth of the holocaust, a serving tool for the jewish people.

You're not being serious? Are you???

[Daos]

So... why do you think/believe that genocide survivors are liars "without any proof"?

Yes. They have only to benefit from this.


You think that they, THOUSANDS OF death camps victims, are all a part of anti-German conspiracy and all decided to make up Holocaust and genocide to claim the money?

Thousands of victims? I thought not long ago you we're claiming 10 million(!) died... Hmm, how strange. No, I'm saying those couple of million dead jews are the result of Typhus epidemic coupled with the hunger suffered after the Allies bombed the supply lines. Don't get me wrong, the Germans did kill jews (sometimes with good reason, other times maybe not), but I am yet to see proof of them systematically killing jews, not to even mention gassing them.


And Nurmberg testimonies were beaten out of the Nazis under tortures?

Precisely.

[Jarl]

Thousands of victims? I thought not long ago you we're claiming 10 million(!) died... Hmm, how strange.

Read it carefully again. I was talking of those who survived the death camps and written down their account of the story, not about total victims of genocide.


No, I'm saying those couple of million dead jews are the result of Typhus epidemic coupled with the hunger suffered after the Allies bombed the supply lines. Don't get me wrong, the Germans did kill jews (sometimes with good reason, other times maybe not), but I am yet to see proof of them systematically killing jews, not to even mention gassing them.

So you:


1. By default assume the Germans were right and innocent. Their testimonies were forced by torture. Documents... forged(?).

2. By default assume it is the victims of Holocaust and death camps who are evil and lying. And it is them who need to provide you with "proof".

3. By default assume the Holocaust/death camp casualties were non-existent or due to diseases, while the tales/pictures of executions fabricated, made up.

4. You assume there was no extermination/Holocaust and it is the victims who need to provide proof. However, at the same time, you outright dismiss any existing proof as fabrication. Nazi documents, Nazi testimonies, photographs, and claims of thousands of survivors.... as conspiracy lies made to gain money.




Loads of assumptions to begin with... On what grounds are you making so many assumptions? Why are you, by default, siding with the Nazis??? It is because of your persona; opinions/beliefs?



Yes. They have only to benefit from this.

Precisely.

And what are your grounds for that belief, if I may ask? These assumptions I listed above?




those couple of million dead jews...the Germans did kill jews... sometimes with good reason

Why are you writing "jews" without capital letter? Murdering Jews for "good reason"? Could you elaborate on what constitutes a good reason in your eyes...

[Jäger]

You're not being serious? Are you???
Even though I think otherwise, most people here already attested me a lack of humor. :D

[Svanhild]

It is disturbing whenever someone tries to depict their nations as superior culture-bearers completely ignoring and disregarding the past atrocities.
You can't imagine how respectless and vexatious it is if you write positive and graceful about your country when some other individuals join the scene and want to draw attention with their continuous "But the wars! But the holocaust! But but but buuuuuuut! Bad bad Germans!" bellyaching. It seems that we Germans can't utter sympathy for our own nation without foreigners jumping in with alarmism and a wagging finger. We know what happened but we will not accept that anyone takes away our right to be proud of our forebears, our nation, our history and culture. It's insolent and completely obnoxious to think to boss us around like that. We're good as the cash cow but woe us if we express elation. You expound your partially biased pan-Polish theses in a brazen-faced way but you start crying and stomping like a little kid if a German calls a spade a spade with respect to our history.
But no chance. We Germans will not wear sackcloth and ashes forever. After 65 years, the time to do penance is over. Aye!


Culture-bearers... de facto a master race. It really reminds me of this American war clip Asega posted. Some really do believe they are the master race. I hope they don't also believe this constitutes an excuse for the crimes that were commited.
Excuse my french, but gibberish!? If a Polish expresses pride to be Polish in light of the history he is a good patriot. If a German expresses pride to be German in light of the history he implies to be a member of a master race? Alright alright. Bollocks to that!



And at every given opportunity people like you, some of whom might even be the descendants of the murderers, will not hesitate to slander and spit on the living children of the victims.
Who slanders whom? You're watering down the process of explusion of German people in German territories east of the Oder-Weichsel Linie persistently. Members of my own family were killed during their flight from Danzig by enraged Polish hands, property was taken away, stolen. You scorn my grandfathers beneath notice if you call all German soldiers in the east murderers and criminals. I'm a granddaughter of German soldiers, people you call murderers, and it's inacceptable that someone like you gives them bad names. Regardless of what they did or not did, they're my grandfathers and enjoy my full trust and sympathy in life and death. Germans have the full right to honor their history and feel pride like you do with respect to Poland.

Yet they are the first ones to brag about their civilisational superiority and at the same time the first ones to call the victims a "worthless nation" - just like their grandfathers did when they were executing thousands of "worthless" civilians years ago...
People like you are only satisfied if all Germans hold their tongues, feel no pride and do whatever external powers are telling them. Mere recipient of orders, working robots, the cash cow of Europe under disability. Let me put it to you this way: Forget it, there will always be proud German men like Zyklop, celti or Jäger and proud German women like me. Leave it or love it. :wink

[Jarl]

You can't imagine how respectless and vexatious it is if you write positive and gracefully about your country when some other individuals join the scene and want to draw attention with their continuous "But the wars! But the holocaust! But but but buuuuuuut! Bad bad Germans!" bellyaching. It seems that we Germans can't utter sympathy for our own nation without foreigners jumping in with alarmism and a wagging finger.

No, Svanhild. You are new to this forum/fora and you do not know some of the members as well as I do. This is a free forum opened for all debates. Not only on the merry, happy, pinky, easy subjects, but also on those less convenient. This is a mere continuation of various other disputes I had here with certain other members. Consequence of their attitude towards Nazis and WW II victims. It is not just me being "nasty".


We know what happened but we will not accept that anyone takes away our right to be proud of our forebears, nation, history and culture.

No. Apparently you DO NOT know what happened! And this is the issue.


It's insolent and completely obnoxious. We're good as the cash cow but woe us if he express elation. You expound your partially biased pan-Polish theses in a brazen-faced way but you start crying and stomping like a little kid if a German calls a spade a spade with respect to our history. But no chance. We Germans will not wear sackcloth and ashes forever. After 65 years, the time to do penance is over.

Penance is over. But this does not mean you can slander the victims, deny genocide and pour down shit on their descendants.



Who slanders whom?

I told you. You are new here. But it is not me who first called Germans "worthless nation" and impudently accused Poles of non-existent genocide, while omitting the whole chapter of 1939-1945.


You're watering down the process of explusion of German people in German territories east of the Oder-Weichsel Linie persistenly. Members of my own family during their flight from Danzig by enraged Polish hands, property was taken away. You scorn my grandfathers beneath notice if you call all German soldiers in the east murderers and criminals. I'm a granddaughter of German soldiers, people you call murderers, and it's inacceptable that someone like you gives them bad names. Regardless of what they did or not, they're my grandfathers and enjoy my full trust and sympathy in life and death. Germans have the full right to honor our history and feel pride like

I do not call all German soldiers murderers. And I do not play down Soviet and Polish Communist atrocities. I wrote on this in "Ethnicities on the verge of extinction", "Poles vs Germans" and few other threads.


Excuse my french, but gibberish. If a Polish expresses pride to be Polish in light of the history he is a good patriot. If a German expresses pride to be German in light of the history he implies to be a member of a master race? Alright alright. Bollocks to that!

No. It is not about German pride. It is about denying the Holocaust and millions of victims of Nazi genocide, which as I see some individuals here do. This is not "gibberish" and its not ballocks. It is very serious and I would like to see the reason behind their actions.


Forget it, there will always be proud German men like Zyklop or Jäger and proud German women like me. Leave it or love it.

You are trying to shed a different light on that issue. But it's got nothing to do with pride as I said above. Unless German pride equals dragging the Holocaust and WW II victims into mud and scorning them and their descendants, like your "proud" fellows here do.

[Wulfhere]

Since you mentioned Nuremberg above:
"... I shall not defend myself against accusers,
whom I deny the right to level charges. I shall
not argue about accusations dealing with things
that are internal German matters and therefore
are no business of outsiders.

"I shall not comment on remarks intended to sully
the honor of myself or German people as a whole.
I consider such aspersions of our opponents as
a badge of honor."
Conclusion Statement of Rudolf Heß at the Nuremberg trial. He didn't sound that lunatic back in the day to me.

Most of them tried to claim they knew nothing about it - dishonourable cowards. Rudolf HeB (sorry, Hess :)) was indeed a total nutcase, as proved by his action in flying to Scotland, his antics while under arrest in the UK, and his pathetic bobbing of the head at his trial. Goring couldn't stand him, and ridiculed him at every opportunity. If it was all an act on Hess's part to get off with a lighter sentence then it was cowardly and childish, and at the very least shows him to be congenitally stupid.

[Svanhild]

No, Svanhild. You are new to this forum/fora and you do not know some of the members as well as I do.
Am I Svanhild or am I "some other members"?


But this does not mean you can slander the victims, deny genocide and pour down shit on their descendants.
Again: Am I Svanhild or am I "some other members"? You're right that I'm a rookie here and that I don't know what someone said at a point in the past, but concerning the right to feel pride to be German I share the view of Zyklop and others.

I do not call all German soldiers murderers. And I do not play down Soviet and Polish Communist atrocities. I wrote on this in "Ethnicities on the verge of extinction", "Poles vs Germans" and few other threads.
You apologize for generalisations here and dish out elsewhere at the same time.

No. It is not about German pride. It is about denying the Holocaust and millions of victims of Nazi genocide, which as I see some individuals here do.
Again²: Am I Svanhild or "some individuals"?


You are trying to shed a different light on that issue. But it's got nothing to do with pride as I said above. Unless German pride equals dragging the Holocaust and WW II victims into mud and scorning them and their descendants, like your "proud" fellows here do.
German history is so much more than Holocaust and WW II victims.

[Wulfhere]

German history is so much more than Holocaust and WW II victims.

Not to most non-Germans it isn't. Rightly or wrongly, you're going to have to live with that forever. No matter how much you stomp your feet (jackbooted or otherwise) and scream, "Not fair!"

[Jarl]

Again: Am I Svanhild or am I "some other members"? You're right that I'm a rookie here and that I don't know what someone said at a point in the past, but concerning the right to feel pride to be German I share the view of Zyklop and others.

I know you are not Zyklop and co. but like I said it is not just a matter of pride. There is an issue here which is much deeper. And I am not trying to take your pride away from you. But, just as Ive written above, it occurs to me that at least to some Germans/Romanians here pride equals the right to slander the victims and deny the genocide...

This is the subject of the current discussion here. I am trying to find out what is the reason behind this denial and their inherent hatred and scorn towards the victims and their nations...

[Nationalitist]

The Germans give ethnic nationalism a bad name.

They didn't give it a bad name, they invented it. Unfortunately German nationalism influnced nationalisms of other nations, particularly Slavic ones. Pan-Slavism, Yugoslavism and other pagan-like [I]racist degradations of nationalisms of different Slavic nations are result of that influence.

No wonder that German National Socialists and Yugoslav Socialists both embraced this blood and soil type of nationalism which has it's roots in romanticism.

Ethnic nationalism is a product of modernity and has to be rejected. The very name itself is an oxymoron since nations evolved from ethnicities through ethnogenesis. Ethnicism and nationalism are two different things. The former tries to deconstruct national identities and is inherently racist and anti-Christian.

[Jarl]

Do not think that Germans were the first to invent racial/ethnic nationalism, however they were certainly one of the first European nations who implemented industrial genocide.


Btw. good to see you back here ;)

[Daos]

Read it carefully again. I was talking of those who survived the death camps and written down their account of the story, not about total victims of genocide.

Ah, I see...


That is to say, there were between 2.7 and 3.6 million "survivors" according to a specific definition of "survivor" (viz. the one cited above).

Source (http://www.historiography-project.com/misc/19970901survivors.html)


1. By default assume the Germans were right and innocent. Their testimonies were forced by torture. Documents... forged(?).

I did not say they were "innocent", I said they didn't systematically kill jews. And yes, the testimonials were obtained via torture.


2. By default assume it is the victims of Holocaust and death camps who are evil and lying. And it is them who need to provide you with "proof".

Not necessarily evil, but let's face it, the jews know how to make business. I'm not the only one that has a hard time trusting the jews - check various European folklore on that.;) And yes, they have to provide some kind of proof, otherwise their claims are null. I mean plenty fake "holocaust survivor" were exposed - here are just (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/7114) two (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1015376.html) examples.


3. By default assume the Holocaust/death camp casualties were non-existent or due to diseases, while the tales/pictures of executions fabricated, made up.

The tales are just that, tales. As for the pictures, well, show me a picture that proves the holocaust took place! No, not pictures with jews that have died of Typhus, like this little girl (Lizzie van Zyl):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/LizzieVanZyl.jpg/800px-LizzieVanZyl.jpg


4. You assume there was no extermination/Holocaust and it is the victims who need to provide proof. However, at the same time, you outright dismiss any existing proof as fabrication. Nazi documents, Nazi testimonies, photographs, and claims of thousands of survivors.... as conspiracy lies made to gain money.

You're repeating yourself. See above.


Loads of assumptions to begin with... On what grounds are you making so many assumptions? Why are you, by default, siding with the Nazis??? It is because of your persona; opinions/beliefs?

I'm not siding with anyone. In lack of proof, I refuse to believe those fairy tales... Unlike our governments that give them huge sums of money for "their suffering".


Why are you writing "jews" without capital letter?

Why not? Does it matter? I only write the name of European peoples letters with capital letters.


Murdering Jews for "good reason"? Could you elaborate on what constitutes a good reason in your eyes...

Well, there are many good reasons: collaborating with the communists or the resistance, stealing, etc.

[Jarl]

Well, there are many good reasons: collaborating with the communists or the resistance, stealing, etc.

The Jews which were sent to death camps were collaborating with the communists? All of them? How were they collaborating? Is this enough to keep them in concentration camps without trial and murder them? "Resistance"??? I don't quite understand. They had every right to defend themselves. "Stealing"... what stealing? Is stealing enough to imprison for life, send to a death camp or execute?


Why not? Does it matter? I only write the name of European peoples letters with capital letters.

It does matter. It shows your attitutde towards these people. For some reason you do not like the Jews. You deny Holocaust, accuse genocide survivors of lying and dismiss the Nazi documentation and testimonies of planned extermination. If concentration camps were pulled down youd probably deny their existence as well.


I'm not siding with anyone. In lack of proof, I refuse to believe those fairy tales... Unlike our governments that give them huge sums of money for "their suffering".

No. Either you are claiming what you've just claimed in two previous posts, or you are not.


If you are...


...then yes! You ARE siding with the Nazi regime because you ARE making the assumptions which I listed above. You are dismissing accounts of the victims and testimonies of the tried, while favouring arguments of the Nazis. You completely disregard German War Office documents of planned murder and mass execution of Jewish, Polish, Roma, Russian and other civilians, and the photographs taken at that time, per se. And you got no grounds for these assumptions. You de facto approach the whole debate with the pre-assumption that the Nazis were truthful and right and Allies/Jews were liars.


Now, I got no doubts that having no proof yourself you base these assumptions on your own emotive POV and beliefs.... so the question is -where does this POV which makes you deny WW II genocide stem from??? It pretty much is a (neo)Nazi POV.


But it is not surprising. After all Romanians collaborated with Nazis and murdered 280 000 - 380 000 Jews, like in the Iaşi pogrom:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ia%C5%9Fi_pogrom

Or in Odessa:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa_massacre

...where handy and eager Romanians worked hand in hand with Einsatzkommandos carrying out the genocide in a neighbourging country. It does not really cast a good light on Romania. You must have a tradition of genocide denial. After all its an uneasy subject.


Romanians were on the same side since November 1940:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_Antonescu#Antonescu_and_the_Holocaust

[Daos]

The Jews which were sent to death camps were collaborating with the communists? All of them? How were they collaborating? Is this enough to keep them in concentration camps without trial and murder them? "Resistance"??? I don't quite understand. They had every right to defend themselves. "Stealing"... what stealing? Is stealing enough to imprison for life, send to a death camp or execute?

Those so called "death camp" (too much horror literature in my opinion) never existed. There were however labour camps. I was talking about the jews actually killed (shot) by the Germans, not about all detainees. But sure, go ahead and make a drama.


For some reason you do not like the Jews. You deny Holocaust, accuse genocide survivors of lying and dismiss the Nazi documentation and testimonies of planned extermination. If concentration camps were pulled down youd probably deny their existence as well.

Did you know there are jews that "deny the holocaust"? Are those self-hating jews?


You are dismissing accounts of the victims and testimonies of the tried, while favouring arguments of the Nazis.

The "Nazis" never had a saying. They were trialled, sentenced and put to death.


You completely disregard German War Office documents of planned murder and mass execution of Jewish, Polish, Roma, Russian and other civilians, and the photographs taken at that time, per se.

A piece of paper is hardly relevant in a case like this. However photos would be great! Have you got any that dismiss my claims?


You de facto approach the whole debate with the pre-assumption that the Nazis were truthful and right and Allies/Jews were liars.

The Soviets have lied about Katyn, have they not? Why stop there?


But it is not surprising. After all Romanians collaborated with Nazis and murdered 280 000 - 380 000 Jews, like in the Iaşi pogrom:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ia%C5%9Fi_pogrom

Or in Odessa:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa_massacre

...where handy and eager Romanians worked hand in hand with Einsatzkommandos carrying out the genocide in a neighbourging country. It does not really cast a good light on Romania. You must have a tradition of genocide denial. After all its an uneasy subject.

So you would have nothing to object if the jews would massively occupy a portion of your land? (Actually, if I remember correctly, they did...) You're fine with that? Hurrah for the dilution of our cultures!:speechless-smiley-0

[The Ripper]

Not to most non-Germans it isn't. Rightly or wrongly, you're going to have to live with that forever. No matter how much you stomp your feet (jackbooted or otherwise) and scream, "Not fair!"

Its perplexing how you flaunt your ignorance as a positive trait. You are proud of not being able to speak other languages (as you said in the thread about French and the dominance of English), you are quite happy to admit that German history to you is reduced to WW II and the Holocaust, as if that's the way it should be. Is ignorance really something to be proud of, do you think?

I wonder, are you proud of being unable to tie your shoelaces too? What a strange attitude.

[Wulfhere]

Its perplexing how you flaunt your ignorance as a positive trait. You are proud of not being able to speak other languages (as you said in the thread about French and the dominance of English), you are quite happy to admit that German history to you is reduced to WW II and the Holocaust, as if that's the way it should be. Is ignorance really something to be proud of, do you think?

I wonder, are you proud of being unable to tie your shoelaces too? What a strange attitude.

Well, I didn't say my own knowledge of German history was limited to WW2 - merely that it is for most people. And who can blame them?

By the way, the reason I'm proud of the fact that I don't have to speak another language is because it proves how successful English has been.

[The Ripper]

English is a lingua franca regardless of your linguistic inability.

[Jarl]

Its perplexing how you flaunt your ignorance as a positive trait. You are proud of not being able to speak other languages (as you said in the thread about French and the dominance of English), you are quite happy to admit that German history to you is reduced to WW II and the Holocaust, as if that's the way it should be. Is ignorance really something to be proud of, do you think?

I wonder, are you proud of being unable to tie your shoelaces too? What a strange attitude.

I much prefer that kind of ignorance. It is much safer and benign than the ignorance which makes people ridicule genocide.


Talking of small nations contributing to the arts and sciences all out of proportion to their size, what about England?

Yes. Undoubtedly the success of the English is unpropotional to the size of their nation. I think its secret partly lies in the popularity of the Anglo-Saxon culture which absorbed other British and European colonial elements of the New World.

[Eldritch]

By the way, the reason I'm proud of the fact that I don't have to speak another language is because it proves how successful English has been.

If I may just butt into the debate for a moment: I find the idea that languages can be successful or unsuccessful on their own right to be extremely odd.

[Wulfhere]

English is a lingua franca regardless of your linguistic inability.

Correct. And it's my language, English, that became the lingua franca.

[Wulfhere]

I much prefer that kind of ignorance. It is much safer and benign than the ignorance which makes people ridicule genocide.



Yes. Undoubtedly the success of the English is unpropotional to the size of their nation. I think its secret partly lies in the popularity of the Anglo-Saxon culture which absorbed other British and European colonial elements of the New World.

Indeed. Anglo-Saxon culture is one of the great civilisation-bearers of world history.

[Wulfhere]

If I may just butt into the debate for a moment: I find the idea that languages can be successful or unsuccessful on their own right to be extremely odd.

Odd, but true.

[The Lawspeaker]

The tales are just that, tales. As for the pictures, well, show me a picture that proves the holocaust took place! No, not pictures with jews that have died of Typhus, like this little girl (Lizzie van Zyl):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/LizzieVanZyl.jpg/800px-LizzieVanZyl.jpg






Lizzie van Zyl died in a Holocaust that became known as the Boer Wars. A victim of Victorian imperialism. Which killed over 26.000 Boers in the concentration camps alone. I don't think that her image should be used when it comes to the Second World War though-- as the Boer Wars happened half a century before the outbreak of that World War.

[Loki]

The tales are just that, tales. As for the pictures, well, show me a picture that proves the holocaust took place! No, not pictures with jews that have died of Typhus, like this little girl (Lizzie van Zyl):


What Asega said. And it's very offensive to call that Boer girl a "jew". Besides, why do you decapitalise "jews"? This is not Stormfront.

[Groenewolf]

What Asega said. And it's very offensive to call that Boer girl a "jew". Besides, why do you decapitalise "jews"? This is not Stormfront.

I need to check my spelling-books, but decapitlised jew refers to those who adhere to the faith will capitlised it refers to a member of the ethnic group. At least according to Dutch rules. But I self capitalize for adherents of religious faiths. Even for the Mohammedans.

[Wulfhere]

I need to check my spelling-books, but decapitlised jew refers to those who adhere to the faith will capitlised it refers to a member of the ethnic group. At least according to Dutch rules. But I self capitalize for adherents of religious faiths. Even for the Mohammedans.

In English, all proper nouns (names), and all adjectives derived from proper nouns, are capitalised.

[Amapola]

There is no option but admitting that the outrages or crimes perpetrated by societies only differ from each-other in quantity (for having better destructive or coercive resources).

Let’s indeed treat everybody equally and perhaps let’s agree on the fact that the history of disgrace is – like Borges suggested- universal and nobody can escape from it.
Serafín Fanjul.

[Daos]

Lizzie van Zyl died in a Holocaust that became known as the Boer Wars. A victim of Victorian imperialism. Which killed over 26.000 Boers in the concentration camps alone. I don't think that her image should be used when it comes to the Second World War though-- as the Boer Wars happened half a century before the outbreak of that World War.

My point was that's how people afflicted by Typhus look like... By the pictures he posted, Jarl implied the people in those mass-graves were victims of the holocaust.


And it's very offensive to call that Boer girl a "jew".

I never said she was jewish.


Besides, why do you decapitalise "jews"? This is not Stormfront.

Is this truly a matter of interest? It is my choice. If that offends you, then pretend my knowledge of English is extremely limited and I don't know when to use capitAl leTters.


This is not Stormfront.

I wouldn't know, I've never been there.