Most Slavic non-Slavic speaking ethnicity

[Rugevit]

Estonians and Moldovans, because

They are genetically similar to Slavs
They exhibit ethnopsychological similarities with Slavs being eastern European nations.
They absorbed many elements from Slavic cultures.

[Äijä]

Estonians and Moldovans, because

They are genetically similar to Slavs
They exhibit ethnopsychological similarities with Slavs being eastern European nations.
They absorbed many elements from Slavic cultures.

Total bulshit.

[Rugevit]

Total bulshit.

It's been proven already. The comparison is relative. If not them, then who? English, Germans, French, Italians or Swedes?

[Äijä]

It's been proven already. The comparison is relative. If not them, then who? English, Germans, French, Italians or Swedes?

Even Alabanians lol.

Latvians and Lithuanians for start but Russia is not the benchmark for Slavs in any case.

[Rugevit]

Even Alabanians lol.

Latvians and Lithuanians for start but Russia is not the benchmark for Slavs in any case.

Albanians are nothing like Slavs. Nor Latvians and Lithuanians. So, don't troll. Estonians are similar to Russian, and they are going to continue converging to the largest ethnicity in the region given Estonia has 30% of Russians and 70% Estonians who are already mixed.

[Sikeliot]

Lithuanians and Latvians.

[Peikko]

Maybe Lithuanians, but totally not Estonians.

[Rugevit]

Maybe Lithuanians, but totally not Estonians.

Moldovans more like central Slavs, while Estonians are like northern Slavs. Lithuanians are in the league of their own.

[Peikko]

Moldovans more like central Slavs, while Estonians are like northern Slavs. Lithuanians are in the league of their own.
What the hell is "Northern Slavs"? Estonians are mainly similar to Finns.

[Äijä]

Albanians are nothing like Slavs. Nor Latvians and Lithuanians. So, don't troll. Estonians are similar to Russian, and they are going to continue converging to the largest ethnicity in the region given Estonia has 30% of Russians and 70% Estonians who are already mixed.

You are the troll, you a talking from your ass. You dont even know the people you are talking about.

[Rugevit]

What the hell is "Northern Slavs"? Estonians are mainly similar to Finns.

Northern meaning closer to the northern pole. Simple, really. Estonians and Finns have linguistic ties.

[Rugevit]

You are the troll, you a talking from your ass. You dont even know the people you are talking about.

Lappy, please.

[armenianbodyhair]

what the actual fuck? troll.

[Äijä]

Northern meaning closer to the northern pole. Simple, really. Estonians and Finns have linguistic ties.

Lol, they are not ties, it was the same damn language until very recently.

[Äijä]

Lappy, please.

Turk, please.

[Yaroslav]

Hungarians by far.

[Rugevit]

Lol, they are not ties, it was the same damn language until very recently.

Irish and Danes speak the languages from the same linguistic family too. Irish switched to English recently, so did many Slavs switched to Estonian. It's a fact.

[Peikko]

Northern meaning closer to the northern pole. Simple, really. Estonians and Finns have linguistic ties.
There are no Slavs living close to the North pole. Vast majority of Russians live in Central / Southern Russia and most living in the Northern Russia have moved there quite recently. St.Petersburg was founded in the 1700s.

[Rugevit]

Hungarians by far.

so, why didn't you vote for Hungarians?

[Rugevit]

There are no Slavs living close to the North pole. Vast majority of Russians live in Central / Southern Russia and most living in the Northern Russia have moved there quite recently. St.Petersburg was founded in the 1700s.

Central and southern Russians are still closer to northern Pole than the majority of Slavs; hence, northern Slavs in comparison to other Slavs.

[Yaroslav]

so, why didn't you vote for Hungarians?

? I did.

[Peikko]

Central and southern Russians are still closer to northern Pole than the majority of Slavs; hence, northern Slavs in comparison to other Slavs.
Yeah and they still live South from Estonia and closer to Belarus and Ukraine, than Estonia. I don't get your logic. But on the other hand Albanians have I.Q. average of 80, so I guess I shouldn't expect too much.

[Äijä]

Irish and Danes speak the languages from the same linguistic family too. Irish switched to English recently, so did many Slavs switched to Estonian. It's a fact.

Danish and Swedish would be the right comparison to Estonia and Finland, they spoke old Norse, we spoke old Baltic Finnic.

And some Slavs switched to Finnish but even more Finnic switched to Slavic in Russia.:rolleyes:

[Rugevit]

Yeah and they still live South from Estonia and closer to Belarus and Ukraine, than Estonia. I don't get your logic. But on the other hand Albanians have I.Q. average of 80, so I guess I shouldn't expect too much.

Northern Slavs is a geographical description of Slavs. Northern Slavs , i.e. Russians, don't live closer to the north than Finns or Estonians, but they still live further north than any Slavic nation including Belarus and Ukraine. Your I.Q is even below 80 seeing you cannot add 1+1.

[Rugevit]

Danish and Swedish would be the right comparison to Estonia and Finland, they spoke old Norse, we spoke old Baltic Finnic.

And some Slavs switched to Finnish but even more Finnic switched to Slavic in Russia.:rolleyes:

Danes and Swedes are genetically similar, while Estonians and Finns are not. There are tonnes of studies in population genetics confirming this fact. Estonians eat Russian cuisine, while Finns don't. Estonians behave like the Russians too.

[Äijä]

Northern Slavs is a geographical description of Slavs. Northern Slavs , i.e. Russians, don't live closer to the north than Finns or Estonians, but they still live further north than any Slavic nation including Belarus and Ukraine. Your I.Q is even below 80 seeing you can add 1+1.

Russians are heavily mixed with Finnic, I repeat, Russia is not the benchmark for Slavs.

[Rugevit]

Russians are heavily mixed with Finnic, I repeat, Russia is not the benchmark for Slavs.

Bull shit. It's Estonians who are heavily mixed with Slavs.

[Peikko]

Northern Slavs is a geographical description of Slavs. Northern Slavs , i.e. Russians, don't live closer to the north than Finns or Estonians, but they still live further north than any Slavic nation including Belarus and Ukraine. Your I.Q is even below 80 seeing you can add 1+1.
http://www.mapsofworld.com/russia/maps/population-density-map.jpg

So now you're saying, that Northern Slavs is a geographical and not ethnic description? So why did you compare ethnic groups, then?

[Rugevit]

http://www.mapsofworld.com/russia/maps/population-density-map.jpg

So now you're saying, that Northern Slavs is a geographical and not ethnic description? So why did you compare ethnic groups, then?

I was saying it all along in this discussion, you slow twit.

[Peikko]

Albanians are nothing like Slavs. Nor Latvians and Lithuanians. So, don't troll. Estonians are similar to Russian, and they are going to continue converging to the largest ethnicity in the region given Estonia has 30% of Russians and 70% Estonians who are already mixed.
Albos are more similar to Turks, than to Slavs.

[Peikko]

I was saying it all along in this discussion, you slow twit.
So your argument is, that Estonians are ethnically similar to North Slavics? Wouldn't that then imply, that Estonians are ethnically similar to Ukrainians too, since Ukrainians and North Slavics are almost the same ethnicity?

[Äijä]

Danes and Swedes are genetically similar, while Estonians and Finns are not. There are tonnes of studies in population genetics confirming this fact. Estonians eat Russian cuisine, while Finns don't. Estonians behave like the Russians too.

Lol, what the hell do you know what Finns or Estonians eat? Estonian behavior is anti Russian if anything.

Those population genetics are BS in their sample size, location and usually dont take good account for drift and still Finland and Estonia are close.
Without Estonians there would be no Finns in this world, can the connection be any more clear.

[Sikeliot]

Albos are more similar to Turks, than to Slavs.

Albanians are the least "Slavic" in the Balkans, even less so than Greeks. I'd say they are the most native.

[Rugevit]

So your argument is, that Estonians are ethnically similar to North Slavics? Wouldn't that then imply, that Estonians are ethnically similar to Ukrainians too, since Ukrainians and North Slavics are almost the same ethnicity?

The comparison is relative. It would imply that Estonians are more similar to Ukrainians than to Germans or Danes, for example.

[Äijä]

Bull shit. It's Estonians who are heavily mixed with Slavs.

Even Russians admit this, you are a joke.

[Peikko]

Lol, what the hell do you know what Finns or Estonians eat? Estonian behavior is anti Russian if anything.

Those population genetics are BS in their sample size, location and usually dont take good account for drift and still Finland and Estonia are close.
Without Estonians there would be no Finns in this world, can the connection be any more clear.
Actually there would be the West coast Finns, who lived in Finland possibly some ~2000 years before Finnic languages.

[Aviator]

Definitely not Estonians. One of my good friends is from there, and he and his family look Germanic as hell.

[Rugevit]

Lol, what the hell do you know what Finns or Estonians eat? Estonian behavior is anti Russian if anything.

What do you know about Estonians? They behave like a typical social group from a post Soviet country.


Those population genetics are BS in their sample size, location and usually dont take good account for drift and still Finland and Estonia are close.
Without Estonians there would be no Finns in this world, can the connection be any more clear.

Samples are randomly selected to draw inferences about populations these samples represent with intervals of confidence. Don't write about things you have no clue.

[Peikko]

The comparison is relative. It would imply that Estonians are more similar to Ukrainians than to Germans or Danes, for example.
Possibly true. But I would argue, that Moldovians and Romanians are more similar to Ukrainians, than Estonians are. So your arguments really don't seem to follow any logic. It's the albo I.Q.80.

[Rugevit]

Possibly true. But I would argue, that Moldovians and Romanians are more similar to Ukrainians, than Estonians are. So your arguments really don't seem to follow any logic. It's the albo I.Q.80.

My arguments follow every bit of logic. It's you who are a little slow on the side of things.

[Äijä]

What do you know about Estonians? They behave like a typical social group from a post Soviet country.



Samples are randomly selected to draw inferences about populations these samples represent with intervals of confidence. Don't write about things you have no clue.

I think I know more about the culture and people of my own than you.

Like the samples from Kuusamo and other East Finnish samples that are totally different population than in West Finland, it does not matter how many random East Finns you sample they dont turn in to West Finns.

[Peikko]

I think I know more about the culture and people of my own than you.

Like the samples from Kuusamo and other East Finnish samples that are totally different population than in West Finland, it does not matter how many random East Finns you sample they dont turn in to West Finns.
Not to mention, that the Kuusamo sample comes from very small and isolated group in Lapland. Not very representative of Finland I think.

[Rugevit]

I think I know more about the culture and people of my own than you.

I would give you some credit for knowledge about reindeer herding. But not for similarities in cultures or genetic affinities between populations.


Like the samples from Kuusamo and other East Finnish samples that are totally different population than in West Finland, it does not matter how many random East Finns you sample they dont turn in to West Finns.

There is a sample from Helsinki too. Kuusamo also represent Finland. Besides, many Finns have put their DNA test results on anthro forums.

[Äijä]

Not to mention, that the Kuusamo sample comes from very small and isolated group in Lapland. Not very representative of Finland I think.

Those samples have no use in any study, maybe for some medical stuff but thats it.

[Peikko]

I would give you some credit for knowledge about reindeer herding. But not for similarities in cultures or genetic affinities between populations.

There is a sample from Helsinki too. Kuusamo also represent Finland. Besides, many Finns have put their DNA test results on anthro forums.
Actually problem of Helsinki is, that it's a melting pot of Finns from all parts of the country, so it's not representative of South Coast Finns.

[Rugevit]

Those samples have no use in any study, maybe for some medical stuff but thats it.

I've told you not write about things you have no clue.

[Äijä]

I would give you some credit for knowledge about reindeer herding. But not for similarities in cultures or genetic affinities between populations.



There is a sample from Helsinki too. Kuusamo also represent Finland. Besides, many Finns have put their DNA test results on anthro forums.

Helsinki is full of East Finns, it was a small town very recently, capital used to be Turku.
East Finns are not the majority in Finland to my knowledge, take samples from Turku, Rauma, Pori, Tampere etc.

[Harkonnen]

Those samples have no use in any study, maybe for some medical stuff but thats it.

Of course they are useful. I don't understand your point at all.

[Rugevit]

Actually problem of Helsinki is, that it's a melting pot of Finns from all parts of the country, so it's not representative of South Coast Finns.

It doesn't matter. If a large sample from Helsinki and Finnish individuals on anthroforums haven't shown genetic affinity to Estonians in comparison to Estonians' immediate neighbours, then the averages from Finnish regions won't show that affinity even if every single Finn was tested.

[Äijä]

I've told you not write about things you have no clue.

Do you knwo who the Kuusamo people are? They are mostly East Finns mixed with a lot of Sami.
Population 16.000, all decended from a starting population of 200-300 in the 18th century!

[Äijä]

Of course they are useful. I don't understand your point at all.

Well they sure as hell dont tell much about Finns in general, they are a curiosity.

[Dombra]

Lithuanians

[Harkonnen]

Well they sure as hell dont tell much about Finns in general, they are a curiosity.

That's why we have samples from all over Finland:) Are you saying North Swedes should not be represented in genetic studies because they are not many? Talk less, think more.

[Äijä]

That's why we have samples from all over Finland:) Are you saying North Swedes should not be represented in genetic studies because they are not many? Talk less, think more.

Lol, I am telling you people that did not come from Estonia cant match with Estonians!
If you think over sampling people with heavy Sami admix and leaving out samples that would be the most relevant to look at connections to Estonia is a way to conclude there is no connection to Estonia, you have to be stupid.

[Peikko]

Lol, I am telling you people that did not come from Estonia cant match with Estonians!
If you think over sampling people with heavy Sami admix and leaving out samples that would be the most relevant to look at connections to Estonia is a way to conclude there is no connection to Estonia, you have to be stupid.
Yeah, but the South West Finns don't exactly cluster with Estonians either. Estonia has just had other influences, so even though population moved through Estonia to Finland, it doesn't mean that the population in Estonia would be the same than in Finland.

[Äijä]

Yeah, but the South West Finns don't exactly cluster with Estonians either. Estonia has just had other influences, so even though population moved through Estonia to Finland, it doesn't mean that the population in Estonia would be the same than in Finland.

Well they are more mixed with Germanics but if you cant prove that they didnt came from Estonia I will openly apologize to Valtaves or who ever, that day is no yet.

[Harkonnen]

Well they are more mixed with Germanics but if you cant prove that they didnt came from Estonia I will openly apologize to Valtaves or who ever, that day is no yet.

Are you saying that those Germanics were East Finnish like genetically?

[SKYNET]

the Eastern bloc, mostly

[Äijä]

Are you saying that those Germanics were East Finnish like genetically?

There where Sami in SW Finland but most of that admix is more likely from later times, someone claiming only language moved from Estonia can thrive now.
When more samples come they should also openly come out and admit their error if proven wrong.
West Finns are a different population than East Finns, everyone has to agree to that even now.

[Harkonnen]

Ukko

Explain PCAs

http://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/finest.png

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/1298/russiangwafig3.png

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/5320/nelis2009pca.png

[Peikko]

Are you saying that those Germanics were East Finnish like genetically?
The mixing with the "Germanics" happened in Western Finland first and later with the Swedes. Estonians probably just mixed with Baltic and some Slavic tribes, so that's why they cluster closer with them, than with Finns.

This picture pretty much tells the whole story:
http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/5320/nelis2009pca.png

[Harkonnen]

There where Sami in SW Finland

Plausible. Could be one reason why Tavastians (Häme) and Saami share the same etymology for their ethnonyms. Both ethnonyms are derived from Germanic *sǣma, meaning dark. Or other possibility is that Baltic zeme, like I mentioned. Did you happen to know by the way the etymology for Karjala (Karelia)?

It comes either from Gothic xarja or Baltic harjis, both having roughly the same meaning, meaning warband, a group of warriors. This got me thinking about Harjavalta and it's etymology. It looks to me that Harjavalta was founded by group of Karelian warriors who established their rule over the West Finnish peasants :bored:

[Not a Cop]

The mixing with the "Germanics" happened in Western Finland first and later with the Swedes. Estonians probably just mixed with Baltic and some Slavic tribes, so that's why they cluster closer with them, than with Finns.


Estonians, Balts, Russians and Belarussians seem to have some common ancestors, but at that time they weren't Slavs, Balts or anything else yet

[Äijä]

Ukko

Explain PCAs

http://verenich.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/finest.png

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/1298/russiangwafig3.png

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/5320/nelis2009pca.png

That even with those samples from Finland and Estonia you can see them reaching to each other.
Most important in Estonia are the Western regions, under sampled like in Finland most likely, Kuusamo really stands out as the curiosity it is.

[Äijä]

Plausible. Could be one reason why Tavastians (Häme) and Saami share the same etymology for their ethnonyms. Both ethnonyms are derived from Germanic *sǣma, meaning dark. Or other possibility is that Baltic zeme, like I mentioned. Did you happen to know by the way the etymology for Karjala (Karelia)?

It comes either from Gothic xarja or Baltic harjis, both having roughly the same meaning, meaning warband, a group of warriors. This got me thinking about Harjavalta and it's etymology. It looks to me that Harjavalta was founded by group of Karelian warriors who established their rule over the West Finnish peasants :bored:

LOL.

East Finns include the Karelians that have a strong Tavastian admix, also Scandinavian, Veps etc, it was the Tavastians that expanded to the North shore of Ladoga, Sortavala area to Isthmus in the Viking Age.
Breaking down the Karelians would be nice to see, I would bet money they differ a lot from each other by regions.
Savonians are a new chapter, also would like to see North and South Savonians broken down, the South is an Tavastians expansion area also, North has a lot of Sami most likely.

[solaris]

umm... could someone just post dna studies... so that we can come to a conclusion.

[glass]

estonians and hungarians, moldavians are closer to roma-nian brothers, both have nothing common with slavic people

[Äijä]

umm... could someone just post dna studies... so that we can come to a conclusion.

LOl, that would be nice, we dont have enough data or good studies.

Finns have been found to have two major populations, West Finns and East Finns, they differ from each other more than most countries in Europe genetically.
We need to study them separate and gather more samples from both. The history is largely known, we know where to find representing samples, for some reason this is not done.
Same division is inside Estonia, same needs to be done.
We need to study the Sami admix in both Finnish populations.
We need to study the Germanic admix in Finns and Estonians, a likely ethnogenesis on the background.

[Rugevit]

LOl, that would be nice, we dont have enough data or good studies.

You continue writing about things you have no idea. You are not in a position to comment on the quality of scientific studies and data used in the studies. The management and preparation of data takes more effort and preparation than analysis of the data. No group of professional scientists would include a sample of data which will jeopardise their study. An adequate sample is collected ensuring all individuals come from a particular region. The regions of a country are often sampled proportionally. Then individuals that may be relative or distant relatives are removed from the samples etc etc.


In several studies Estonian sample represents the entire population of Estonia from all regions proportionally. There were 130 subjects in total incorporated in 2-3 scientific studies.

Estonia

The 1,090 Estonian samples were selected from 10,317 from the Estonian bio-bank (year 2005). Eighty samples (40 males and 40 females) were selected randomly, according to a place of birth from each of 13 Estonian counties (Harju, Ida-Viru, Jogeva, Jarva, Laane-viru, Polva, Parnu, Rapla, Saarema, Tartu, Valga, Viljandi, Voru) and 50 samples (25 males and 25 females) were selected from the combined Hiiuma and Laanema counties.


Finland

The Helsinki samples were collected as part of a larger local project to represent the general Finnish population. Both males and females are included and the selection was not based on any disease/diagnosis/trait. The Kuusamo samples represent the general population of in the Kuusamo region (a Finnish isolate on the north-eastern border of the country). The selected individuals have both parents born in Kuusamo. Both males and females were included and the selection was not based on any disease/diagnosis/trait.


Russia

The Russian samples were obtained from healthy donors from the Andreapol district of Tver region; all individuals were unrelated to each other and represent the native ethnic group of the region (i.e. they belonged to at least the third generation living in a particular geographic region).
In addition, scientists in one study combined samples from southern (Kursk), eastern (Murom), and northern (Mezen) regions of European Russia. Furthermore, a sample from HGDP (northern Volgda , southern Archangel ) project was included in the study too.

Relevant articles describing samples:

1. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0058552#s5
2. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0005472#s5



Here's MDS plot based on Fst indices. Clearly, Estonians show genetic affinity to Russian populations from central Russia.




http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/previews.figshare.com/980841/preview_980841.png

[Harkonnen]

Plausible. Could be one reason why Tavastians (Häme) and Saami share the same etymology for their ethnonyms. Both ethnonyms are derived from Germanic *sǣma, meaning dark. Or other possibility is that Baltic zeme, like I mentioned. Did you happen to know by the way the etymology for Karjala (Karelia)?

It comes either from Gothic xarja or Baltic harjis, both having roughly the same meaning, meaning warband, a group of warriors. This got me thinking about Harjavalta and it's etymology. It looks to me that Harjavalta was founded by group of Karelian warriors who established their rule over the West Finnish peasants :bored:

Some corrections. Xarja is actually proto-Germanic word. Harjis is a Gothic word.

Proto-Baltic: *kar-a-, *kar-ia- c., *kar-iā̃, *kar-jā̂ f., *kar-ja-s, *kar-ia-s m.
Meaning: war, troopsL

Lithuanian: kãra-s, kãria-s `Krieg'; kãrē, karià `Krieg', kãria-s, kãri-s `Heer', karī̃s `Krieger'

This is actually a interesting word. If we are to believe in the nostratic bullshit, this little baby

http://blenderartists.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=180712&d=1336070997

shares deep etymological roots with Karelians,

Proto-Japanese: *kàtà-
Meaning: enemy, opposite

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fie%2Fbaltet&text_number=+++262&root=config


LOL.

East Finns include the Karelians that have a strong Tavastian admix, also Scandinavian, Veps etc,

I've a feeling you're beating a dead horse here


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX-eGPMjMN4

[Äijä]

You continue writing about things you have no idea. You are not in a position to comment on the quality of scientific studies and data used in the studies. The management and preparation of data takes more effort and preparation than analysis of the data. No group of professional scientists would include a sample of data which will jeopardise their study. An adequate sample is collected ensuring all individuals come from a particular region. The regions of a country are often sampled proportionally. Then individuals that may be relative or distant relatives are removed from the samples etc etc.


In several studies Estonian sample represents the entire population of Estonia from all regions proportionally. There were 130 subjects in total incorporated in 2-3 scientific studies.

Estonia

The 1,090 Estonian samples were selected from 10,317 from the Estonian bio-bank (year 2005). Eighty samples (40 males and 40 females) were selected randomly, according to a place of birth from each of 13 Estonian counties (Harju, Ida-Viru, Jogeva, Jarva, Laane-viru, Polva, Parnu, Rapla, Saarema, Tartu, Valga, Viljandi, Voru) and 50 samples (25 males and 25 females) were selected from the combined Hiiuma and Laanema counties.


Finland

The Helsinki samples were collected as part of a larger local project to represent the general Finnish population. Both males and females are included and the selection was not based on any disease/diagnosis/trait. The Kuusamo samples represent the general population of in the Kuusamo region (a Finnish isolate on the north-eastern border of the country). The selected individuals have both parents born in Kuusamo. Both males and females were included and the selection was not based on any disease/diagnosis/trait.


Russia

The Russian samples were obtained from healthy donors from the Andreapol district of Tver region; all individuals were unrelated to each other and represent the native ethnic group of the region (i.e. they belonged to at least the third generation living in a particular geographic region).
In addition, scientists in one study combined samples from southern (Kursk), eastern (Murom), and northern (Mezen) regions of European Russia. Furthermore, a sample from HGDP (northern Volgda , southern Archangel ) project was included in the study too.

Relevant articles describing samples:

1. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0058552#s5
2. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0005472#s5



Here's MDS plot based on Fst indices. Clearly, Estonians show genetic affinity to Russian populations from central Russia.




http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/previews.figshare.com/980841/preview_980841.png

Idiot, where are the samples to represent general West Finnish population.
It is not a curiosity population but a very important at least if you want to know about closeness to Estonia.

[Äijä]

Some corrections. Xarja is actually proto-Germanic word. Harjis is a Gothic word.

Proto-Baltic: *kar-a-, *kar-ia- c., *kar-iā̃, *kar-jā̂ f., *kar-ja-s, *kar-ia-s m.
Meaning: war, troopsL

Lithuanian: kãra-s, kãria-s `Krieg'; kãrē, karià `Krieg', kãria-s, kãri-s `Heer', karī̃s `Krieger'

This is actually a interesting word. If we are to believe in the nostratic bullshit, this little baby

http://blenderartists.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=180712&d=1336070997

shares deep etymological roots with Karelians,

Proto-Japanese: *kàtà-
Meaning: enemy, opposite

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fie%2Fbaltet&text_number=+++262&root=config



I've a feeling you're beating a dead horse here


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX-eGPMjMN4

You know I am right, you just have an agenda.

[Austo]

a new question would be: who wants to be.

[Harkonnen]

Idiot, where are the samples to represent general West Finnish population.
It is not a curiosity population but a very important at least if you want to know about closeness to Estonia.

If you use google you can find some fst stuff-


------------------



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC_Xy_xUzx8

karjalaisten laulu


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvfwaw0f6YE

[Rugevit]

Idiot, where are the samples to represent general West Finnish population.
It is not a curiosity population but a very important at least if you want to know about closeness to Estonia.

Retard, Finland is not just western Finland. Helsinki sample was selected to represent general Finnish population. So was the Estonian sample with 130 subjects from all 13 counties.

[Harkonnen]

Retard, Helsinki sample was selected to represent general Finnish population. So was the Estonian sample with 130 subjects from all 13 counties.

He's right though, some West Finn populations are a bit closer to Estonians on fst distances, that is if I remember correctly these reslts I read years ago, I can't remember all this crap. Anyway fst is crap, it means shit. What I'd really like to see is some IBS comparison with Virulaiset.

[Rugevit]

He's right though, some West Finn populations are a bit closer to Estonians on fst distances, that is if I remember correctly these reslts I read years ago, I can't remember all this crap. Anyway fst is crap, it means shit. What I'd really like to see is some IBS comparison with Virulaiset.

The discussion is not about Finns. Estonians - 10 subjects from each Estonian province - show genetic affinity to central Russians on the MDS plot. I assume western Finns would pull more towards northern Swedish population. I remember seeing northern Swedish sample somewhere.

[Rugevit]

Western Finns are between eastern Sweden and eastern Finland according to the plot from Fennoscandia project. Estonians are with the rest of east Europeans. http://fennoscandia.blogspot.com/2012/08/scandinavians-western-europeans-with.html


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XD2VYPMlPoM/UCtou0Y3ZFI/AAAAAAAAAdU/FomfwxZdA_E/s1600/CCPCAD1-D3Dir.png

[Rugevit]

If Latvians beat Swiss tomorrow, which they can, Finns are out.

[Harkonnen]

Western Finns are between eastern Sweden and eastern Finland according to the plot from Fennoscandia project. Estonians are with the rest of east Europeans. http://fennoscandia.blogspot.com/2012/08/scandinavians-western-europeans-with.html


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XD2VYPMlPoM/UCtou0Y3ZFI/AAAAAAAAAdU/FomfwxZdA_E/s1600/CCPCAD1-D3Dir.png

That is one crap dimension you cherrypicked there.. Saamis clustering with Frenchies, yeah right.


If Latvians beat Swiss tomorrow, which they can, Finns are out.

No problem we can take it, there's always tomorrow.

[Peikko]

If Latvians beat Swiss tomorrow, which they can, Finns are out.
That's because no Finn wants to go play hockey in Belarus.

Anyway, to the original topic, Estonians are just Finns mixed with Russians. Mongoloid components are very visible:
http://valitsus.ee/UserFiles/valitsus/Image/RKListings/14463.jpg
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRQLr_oD05UrZkKOAtmaSDnldj7_GuCn DkQVvDDEP5-5151fjS8http://sport.etv.ee/failid/5597.jpg

[Rugevit]

That's because no Finn wants to go play hockey in Belarus.

Anyway, to the original topic, Estonians are just Finns mixed with Russians. Mongoloid components are very visible:



Estonians have less Siberian admixture than Finns.

[Peikko]

Estonians have less Siberian admixture than Finns.
Russians too. Doesn't change how you guys look like, Ilya Kovalchuk.

Nice phenotype :tongue
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/image.php?u=11374&dateline=1398261741

[Rugevit]

Russians too. Doesn't change how you guys look like, Ilya Kovalchuk.

Nice phenotype :tongue
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/image.php?u=11374&dateline=1398261741

Don't know how Kovalchuk look like. There are only few genes responsible for pigmentation, while genome wide comparison is done on hundreds of thousands of SNPs. Basically, Finns are lappies in disguise.

[Äijä]

Retard, Finland is not just western Finland. Helsinki sample was selected to represent general Finnish population. So was the Estonian sample with 130 subjects from all 13 counties.

Actually Finland is originally Western Finland, or just small part of it.
The population of it is close to 3 million but you can keep wanking your Kuusamo samples.

[Rugevit]

Actually Finland is originally Western Finland, or just small part of it.
The population of it is close to 3 million but you can keep wanking your Kuusamo samples.

It doesn't if the origin was in the west or east. There is Helsinki sample in the study representing the general Finnish population. But that beside the point.

130 Estonian individuals randomly selected from a sample of 10,317 representing all 13 Estonian counties exhibit genetic affinity to central Russians.

Estonia

The 1,090 Estonian samples were selected from 10,317 from the Estonian bio-bank (year 2005). Eighty samples (40 males and 40 females) were selected randomly, according to a place of birth from each of 13 Estonian counties (Harju, Ida-Viru, Jogeva, Jarva, Laane-viru, Polva, Parnu, Rapla, Saarema, Tartu, Valga, Viljandi, Voru) and 50 samples (25 males and 25 females) were selected from the combined Hiiuma and Laanema counties.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?126199-Most-Slavic-non-Slavic-speaking-ethnicity&p=2654891&viewfull=1#post2654891

http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/previews.figshare.com/980841/preview_980841.png

[Zmey Gorynych]

Moldovans more like central Slavs, while Estonians are like northern Slavs. Lithuanians are in the league of their own.
What's a central slav !?

[Vlach]

Moldovans and romanians as different options. :picard2:

[Trun]

Depends which Slavs. From Bulgarian perspective it's Romanians, Albanians and Greeks. From Czech perspective maybe it's Germans, Austrians and Hungarians. From Russian perspective maybe it's Balts and Christian Caucasians.

[Proto-Shaman]

Let's end this twistedmindoid Slavo-Hungarian myth...

"The occurrence of the Turkic types (Turanid, Pamirian, Anterior-Asian and Oriental-Mongoloid) in the modern Hungarians is assessed to 46.2%, that of the Finno-Ugrians (Uraloid, Lapponoid and approx. 55% of the East Baltic type) to 4.6%, while the Old Slavic (approx. 45% of the East-Baltic type and each 50% of the Nordoid and Cromagnoid types) and the German (approx. each 50% of the Nordoid and the Cromagnoid types) constitute 3.2% and 0.5%, respectively."

source: Endre Czeizel, Heide-G. Benkemann, H. Werner Goedde, Genetics of the Hungarian Population: Ethnic Aspects, Genetic Markers, Ecogenetics, and Disease Spectrum, Akadémiai Kiadó, 1991, p. 95. (http://books.google.de/books?id=s4ojAQAAIAAJ)

[Zmey Gorynych]

Depends which Slavs. From Bulgarian perspective it's Romanians, Albanians and Greeks. From Czech perspective maybe it's Germans, Austrians and Hungarians. From Russian perspective maybe it's Balts and Christian Caucasians.
Aren't slavs one meta-ethnicity, why the need to split the hair in 10 !? He's obviosly thinking of russians though. His options are sound but I don't get the exclusion of lithuanians and latvians. These 2 groups IMO are closer to slavs than hungarians and romanians.

My answer would be moldavians. They are genetically not as close as balts but culturally a lot closer, many morons still weep after Mother Russia. I would go as far as to say that moldavians are closer to russians than many other slavs (southern and western).

[Trun]

Arent's slavs one meta-ethnicity, why the need to split the hair in 10 !?

It's a meta ethnicity by language. Other than that, there are obvious differences.

[gültekin]

Filipinos

[Jusarius]

Estonians, Balts, Russians and Belarussians seem to have some common ancestors, but at that time they weren't Slavs, Balts or anything else yetThis. Itäs not that complicated but apparently too difficult for many to understand here. I'm just as bright when I claim that most Slavs are genetic Estonians.

[Jusarius]

LOL.

East Finns include the Karelians that have a strong Tavastian admix, also Scandinavian, Veps etc, it was the Tavastians that expanded to the North shore of Ladoga, Sortavala area to Isthmus in the Viking Age.
Breaking down the Karelians would be nice to see, I would bet money they differ a lot from each other by regions.
Savonians are a new chapter, also would like to see North and South Savonians broken down, the South is an Tavastians expansion area also, North has a lot of Sami most likely.Actually historical evidence shows that Tavastian influence is higher in Northern Savonia and South Savonia is more Savo-Karelian.

[Rugevit]

This. Itäs not that complicated but apparently too difficult for many to understand here. I'm just as bright when I claim that most Slavs are genetic Estonians.

I will quote Hweliant from forumbiodiversity

----------------------

There has been 4 major demographic catastrophes at Estonia. I'll just introduce you to 2 as they are quite enough:

Polish–Swedish War (1600–1629):
Post-war population 60,000-70,000



The Next 60-70 years, however, witnessed rapid groth, aided by the influx of numerous immigrants (in particular, Finns, Russians, Latvians and Lithuanians),
who were gradually assimilated by the Estonian. The toal population reached 325.000-350.000 (Otto Liiv) or 350.000-400.00 (Palli) by the mid-1690s.

Estonia and the Estonians
- Toivo U. Raun, 2001.

So population of Estonia went from 70K -> 350K in 2 generations!

Then the shit hit the fan again:

Pre Great Northern War Estonia: 350K-400K

Lots of war and misery, Russian barbarism and murder.

Post Great Northern War Estonia: 170K (highest possible estimation of remaining Estonians by Heldur Palli).

After GNW:



Systematic pillaging by Russian forces at the time of the Northern War, and the 1710–1711 plague epidemic, caused a huge demographic catastrophe. Historians remain divided on the numerical estimates, but on balance it is thought that after the Northern War there were no more than 150 000–170 000 Estonians left. The early 18th-century post-war crisis marked the lowest ebb in the Estonian population during the last thousand years. But due to a high natural population growth and partly also to immigration, the number of Estonians began to rise rapidly. In 1725, the Estonian population was 220 000, in 1750 it was 335 000, and in 1765, 400 000. Thus the population level of the Swedish time, before the Great Famine, was restored.

http://www.estonica.org/en/History/1...ial_structure/



So the Northern War Decimated Estonians were allready VERY heteregenous collection of their neighbouring populations and the locals. Then came the GNW which eliminated half of them.
Right after the war new waves of immigrants came in from neighbouring regions (Finland, Russia, Latvia), mixing with old, decimated heterogenous bunch. In less than 4 decades the population doubled.
The low FST is because of this and also the reason why Estonians have very low FST with their neighbours, who are all partially their root populations. Estonians certainly are not "proto-Finnics" you wish them to be. We are.

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/31423-Finnish-proto-Indo-European-autosomal-component-split-mod/page18?p=819288#post819288

[SKYNET]

Estonians and Moldovans, because they are former citizens of USSR.

[Äijä]

I will quote Hweliant from forumbiodiversity

----------------------

There has been 4 major demographic catastrophes at Estonia. I'll just introduce you to 2 as they are quite enough:

Polish–Swedish War (1600–1629):
Post-war population 60,000-70,000




Estonia and the Estonians
- Toivo U. Raun, 2001.

So population of Estonia went from 70K -> 350K in 2 generations!

Then the shit hit the fan again:

Pre Great Northern War Estonia: 350K-400K

Lots of war and misery, Russian barbarism and murder.

Post Great Northern War Estonia: 170K (highest possible estimation of remaining Estonians by Heldur Palli).

After GNW:




So the Northern War Decimated Estonians were allready VERY heteregenous collection of their neighbouring populations and the locals. Then came the GNW which eliminated half of them.
Right after the war new waves of immigrants came in from neighbouring regions (Finland, Russia, Latvia), mixing with old, decimated heterogenous bunch. In less than 4 decades the population doubled.
The low FST is because of this and also the reason why Estonians have very low FST with their neighbours, who are all partially their root populations. Estonians certainly are not "proto-Finnics" you wish them to be. We are.

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/31423-Finnish-proto-Indo-European-autosomal-component-split-mod/page18?p=819288#post819288

This would fit the fact that Estonians have the same proportion of N1c and I1 as the Finns if you assume most of the R1a and some others are part of these population movements in the historical times.

I would really like to see what are the Estonian subclades for those.

[Rugevit]

The answer to the question is all mentioned ethnicities are similar to Slavs depending on a group of Slavs we compare Romanians, Hungarians, Moldovans and Estonians.

[Prism]

Hungarians by far, they have more Slavic R1a than South Slavs even. Every Hungarian i've seen/met in my life so far ( in real life and on this forum ) looked West Slavic.
Basically they are Slavs who don't speak a Slavic language haha.

[Plague Doctor]

Hungarians