Stefan's Y-Haplogroup

[Stefan_Dusan]

So I took this ftDNA, got back the first 12 markers, still waiting on the remanding 37 (which will come in several weeks). It's predicting I'm I-M170 based on this data.

http://s11.postimg.org/oceny12tv/ft_DNA.png

This is LITERALLY the oldest variant of I, it's the FIRST variant of I to emerge in Europe and the ONLY such one. From Wikipedia:


Y-DNA Haplogroup I-M170 is predominantly a European haplogroup and it is considered as the only native European Haplogroup

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M170

It predates I1 (I-M253) and of course the one most common in the Balkans (I-M423).

I allowed the Serbian geneticist to gain access to my data, his response:


For any definite grouping we must wait for all 37 markers. It must be said that 12 markers exact match could be false. For example, I have two exact matches on 12, but they are not matches at all for me on 25, 37 or 67.
They are not even close to me. And with my cousin (10 steps from me on direct male line), for example, I have three differences. And my father in law has about 100 exact matches in 12 markers, but none is close to him in 37. And all of them are thousands of years from him till first direct common ancestor.
In few days we shall know more.
And I must say that your I-2 branch is very misterious, and rare of course. You are first Serb to be in it. I know there
Its closer in time origin might be somewhere near Caucasus, but further in time it is certainly Europe, as are all I-s.

There is even albanian guy I2c guy. You have three differences to him, but, who knows!

E14951 Selmani Albania I-M170 15 24 15 10 14-14 11 13 12 13 11 30 17 8-8 11 11 24 15 20 32 11-15-15-15 10 10 19-21 15 13 16 18 34-36 12 10

What the fuck, what the fuck, what the fuck is going on!

[HellLander87]

Wait till you get the rest of the markers,see what further snps your matches have and check for those snps too.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Wait till you get the rest of the markers,see what further snps your matches have and check for those snps too.

What I am confused about namely (besides there is no other Serbs with this, which would be impossible) is wikipedia mentions it's origin is in Europe but then the Serbian geneticist says it's in the Kavkaz and further, this is said by the same Wikipedia page:


I-M170[edit]
The composite subclade I-M170 contains individuals directly descended from the earliest members of Haplogroup I, bearing none of the subsequent mutations which identify the remaining named subclades.

Several haplogroup I*-M170 individuals who do not fall in known subclades, with some of the greatest Y-STR diversity, have significantly been found among the populations of Turkey (8/741), Adygea (2/138), and Iraq (1/176),even though as a whole Haplogroup I-M170 occurs at only very low frequencies among modern populations of the Middle East and Caucasus. This is consistent with the belief that the haplogroup first appeared in that region. Overall, the highest frequencies of Haplogroup I*-M170 appear to be found among the Andalusians (3/103), French (4/179), Slovenians (2/55), Tabassarans (1/30)[32] and the Saami (1/35). [1] The greatest figure so far for I* was among the Laks in Dagestan, at a rate of (3/21).[32]

Do they consider the Kavkaz Europe?!?!?!

[Black Wolf]

You seem to have taken just a Y-STR marker test and no SNP tests. It predicts you as basic I with STR tests based on your STR markers. I am sure if you take some SNP tests you will come out as being I2a or something like that.

[Minesweeper]

Wait to see the final results. But look from the bright side, you have the coolest haplogroup around. It doesn't matter what variant is it. :D

[Stefan_Dusan]

You seem to have taken just a Y-STR marker test and no SNP tests. It predicts you as basic I with STR tests based on your STR markers. I am sure if you take some SNP tests you will come out as being I2a or something like that.

I'm definitely not I2a, the Serbian guy checked that on my 23andMe, and ruled that out. This is why he begged me to do an FtDNA test.

[Black Wolf]

I'm definitely not I2a, the Serbian guy checked that on my 23andMe, and ruled that out. This is why he begged me to do an FtDNA test.

Wow your haplogroup is rare among Serbs then...Most Serbs are I2a1 or something like that aren't they?

[HellLander87]

For example based on str ftdna had me only as E1b1b.Only after I took an snp test I had E-v13 or e1b1b1a2 at my results.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Wow your haplogroup is rare among Serbs then...Most Serbs are I2a1 or something like that aren't they?

The Serbian geneticist thinks I will become I2c but so far I allude all I2a or I2b or I2c. But I'm definitely neither I2a or I2b, I2c is so rare that there is still shot there.

[HellLander87]

If you are I2c read this
I2c (L596, L597) probably originated around the Rhine region during the Mesolithic period. I2c* can be divided in four groups: A, AB, B and C.
Group A is geographically limited to Switzerland, Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden, Poland, Britain and Ireland.
Group AB has been found in north-west Iran, around the Caucasus (Armenia and Georgia), in Turkey and in France.
Group B is found at low frequencies in West Asia (Turkey, Georgia, North Ossetia, Armenia, Azerbaijian and north-west Iran), in Southeast Europe (Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, Crete), in Balto-Slavic countries (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic), as well as in Germany, Austria, Italy, Spain and Britain.
Group C has a similar distribution to group A but has also been found in France, Italy and Norway.
Groups A and C seem to have expanded respectively during the Celtic Bronze and Iron ages, alongside R1b-S116/P312.
Additionally, the subclade I2c1 (L1251) has recently been identified. It is found mostly in Germany and England and in their periphery (Ireland, Norway, France, Italy, Poland). This subclade is thought to be approximately 6000 years old, which places it in the Late Neolithic period. It may be associated with hunter-gatherers from Germany who adopted agriculture after coming into contact with Near-Eastern farmers from the Linear Pottery (LBK) culture".

[Stefan_Dusan]

We will have to wait!

According to the Serbian geneticist I match some of the B groups so far, L596 L597 with 1 separation, but not exact match.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Update:


Hello,

Stefane, you misunderstood that. You are both M170 (haplogroup I) and its sublclade I2c, whichever marker of mutation it be. I is emerged in Europe, but part of its subgroup moved to Caucacus. We shall probably see soon more clearly is your subbranch from Caucasus or not, when you got all 37 markers.

I think not a single Serb from Kosovo has been tested. Dont worry, time will bring some, and we shall know more some day of your patenal lines ancestry.

[Artek]

Everything points at a Caucasus(or near of it), basing on a modern haplotypes.
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/maps/341/ - the oldest branch
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/maps/347/ - other branches
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/maps/348/
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/maps/349/

[Stefan_Dusan]

Everything points at a Caucasus(or near of it), basing on a modern haplotypes.
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/maps/341/ - the oldest branch

That's my branch, I guess that Albanian video about Serbs originating from Caucasus was true afterall :laugh:

[HellLander87]

That's my branch, I guess that Albanian video about Serbs originating from Caucasus was true afterall :laugh:
You are probably descended from elite true Serbians.;)

[Anglojew]

Serb Iranic origin?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Migrations_serbes_avant_1000.png

[Stefan_Dusan]

Serb Iranic origin?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Migrations_serbes_avant_1000.png

All my male cousins from my paternal side are embracing this. One even commented he always wanted to see Kavkaz mountains and now knows why :laugh:

Don't forget when I first joined, the Bosnians and Albanians were accusing me of being a Chechen :laugh:

[alexkid]

Serb Iranic origin?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Migrations_serbes_avant_1000.png

i thought that was croat

[Stefan_Dusan]

i thought that was croat

Croats and Serbs were originally brother tribes, the same people. It was our ethnogensis in the Balkans (since we ruled over different Balkan people) that we separated as we absorbed some blood and culture from the various Balkan people we ruled.

[alexkid]

Croats and Serbs were originally brother tribes, the same people. It was our ethnogensis in the Balkans (since we ruled over different Balkan people) that we separated as we absorbed some blood and culture from the various Balkan people we ruled.

that would explain the serbo-croat language then

[Anglojew]

All my male cousins from my paternal side are embracing this. One even commented he always wanted to see Kavkaz mountains and now knows why :laugh:

Don't forget when I first joined, the Bosnians and Albanians were accusing me of being a Chechen :laugh:

You're probably a Sarmatian (which makes you my Scythian kin);

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/Maps/Achaemenid_and_Iranic_Peoples_in_the_Ancient_World .PNG

[Anglojew]

i thought that was croat

Both tribes moved from Iran. Probably allied.

[Stefan_Dusan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1SvRh8tzXg

Check out the guy who posted the video: "IllyrianWarrior20" is he related to our Illyrian Warrior or are Albanians just not very creative when names :laugh:

[Black Wolf]

Some groups of the Caucasus do have I2 present among them but Chechens are not one of them. Chechens are majority J2a-M67. Dargins seems to have quite a bit of I2 though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus

[Stefan_Dusan]

Some groups of the Caucasus do have I2 present among them but Chechens are not one of them. Chechens are majority J2a-M67. Dargins seems to have quite a bit of I2 though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus

On ftDNA, it seems Georgians have I2c in some small quantities, I also heard Dagestani Laz people? But I need to wait for 37 markers.

The Chechen thing is a joke as iNigga and CrystalMethLady both accused me of being Chechen.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Anyways, in all groups, it seems I2c is very rare when its present. Its probably one of those very very very old haplogroups who began dying out for the mergence of new ones. There is no population that has I2c in any abundance which is why it's origin is mysterious and hard to study.

[HellLander87]

There is also a chance that albanians came from caucasus and you have an albanian lineage.;)

[Stefan_Dusan]

There is also a chance that albanians came from caucasus and you have an albanian lineage.;)

Don't make me commit suicide xD

[albosomething]

who's the chechen now ? hahahah jk

[Stefan_Dusan]

The story of I people, the true Europeans :)



Ancient DNA is gradually resolving the mysteries of Y-DNA Haplogroup I (L41). Its modern distribution was puzzling. On the one hand it seemed ancient in Europe. It rarely appears outside the boundaries of Europe and European colonies. So it was not a good candidate for arrival with farmers from the Near East. Nor did it seem the prime candidate for spread with the Indo-Europeans, since they travelled both west into Europe and east into the Indian Subcontinent. So the natural conclusion was that haplogroup I had been stalking around Europe since the Stone Age. It is estimated to be some 25,000 years old.1 That is not old enough to have arrived with the very first Homo sapiens in Europe 45,000 years ago, but it could have arisen from an IJ father in Europe before the Ice Age made northern Europe uninhabitable around 20,000 years ago. The lineages which led to I1 and I2 split so early that their bearers could have taken shelter in different Ice Age refugia.

We now have Y-DNA from five northern Europeans around 6000 BC, before farmers arrived there, and it all falls into haplogroup I. There are two examples of haplogroup I* from Sweden. The other three samples, two from Sweden and the other from Luxembourg, were I2.2

On the other hand the pattern of I subclades in present-day European men look relatively recent. We see regional bunching, typical of relatively recent arrivals. What are we to make of these contradictions? The haplogroup may date deep into the distant European past, but it seems that most of the hunters and foragers who carried it have no direct descendants in the male line today.



In a hunter-gatherer economy, the population is usually maintained at replacement level, where that community remains within a particular territory. Women space births by weaning late. Population levels need to be low, as each hunting band needs to roam a large territory. The human population dropped dramatically world-wide during the last glacial maximum. Within Europe it fell to the point where we would today classify it as an endangered species.

Then the population expanded during the Mesolithic as people gradually reclaimed the territory that had been lost to the climate downturn. Once it had expanded enough to fill the territory at the low hunter-gatherer level, we would expect it to be stable until farming made higher levels possible. Haplogroup I1 does not show any star-burst of subclades at that time, so we can presume that people carrying it were in no hurry to take up farming. However we do see bursts of new lineages in I2 at c. 8,000 years ago = 6000 BC, as farming reached the Balkans. It appears that some I2 men were willing and able to adopt agriculture.

So my inclination is to look for the ancestors of today's I-men in successful hunter-gatherer cultures, which had a good chance of leaving descendants. In the days when all mankind lived by hunting and gathering, all could be considered equally successful if they managed to survive in competition with other predators. This might include other human hunting bands, but fellow humans were not initially the main competition. Man had to be clever enough to out-do lions and bears and not end up at the wrong end of the food chain. Once farming entered the picture, hunters were in direct competition with people who could outbreed them and inexorably take over the territory. Successful hunting cultures at that point were few and far between. Characteristically they occupied a highly fruitful hunting or fishing niche, that could scarcely be bettered at that stage by turning it over to farming. People in such a niche could hold off any incoming farmers who thought otherwise, and choose to adopt whatever seemed useful from farming neighbours at their own pace.


I2c (L596, L597) is a relatively recent discovery, accounting for some of those previously labelled I2*. The group within it labelled (A) in Family Tree DNA I2* Haplogroup Project results is particularly interesting for its distribution around the Black Sea, including Armenia. It seems likely that the I2* in Armenians reported in one paper18 is actually I2c. Several Indo-European languages seem to have arisen on the western shores of the Black Sea, but eventually spread into Anatolia. Armenian made a further move from central Anatolia to Armenia.

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/haplogroupi.shtml

[Stefan_Dusan]

Diversity of I2c, despite claims it originated in the Kavkaz, it seems to be concentrated in western Germany and eastern England where the greatest diversity is

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/2339/diversityi2cj.png

[Stefan_Dusan]

^^ Actually read that better, this map was generated by an individual collecting his sources, it's not a 'scientific' map.


My major sources and their results:
Primary distribution data from I2*, new ISOGG I2b and I2c Haplogroup Project
6% in Crete per King et al 2008
4% in Kazbegi per Wells et al 2001, 0% among other Georgians
9% among Georgians per 23andMe
0% among Georgians per Litvinov et al 2010
0% among Georgians per Battaglia et al 2008
4% among Armenians per Wells et al 2001
4% among Armenians per Armenian DNA Project
non-trace levels among Emmentalers per The Swiss Anabaptist DNA Project
non-trace levels among Clan Wallace per Wallace-WALLIS Y-DNA Project

More notes:


Well I suppose I should say that it has the potential to tell a lot of stories. It may be the best subclade for tracing certain European backmigrations into Asia. It has a couple of interesting apparent expansions in Western Europe, namely within the Brythonic area of Scotland and into the Emmental in Switzerland. It had a major expansion on Crete. How all these happened could be quite interesting to investigate.

Even more:


Well most of the data points in Asia I had to work with were from ethnic Armenians, and I'm not sure how they got it. Another note is that most of the Eastern Europeans with I2c are ethnic Jews.

[Stefan_Dusan]

More on this haplogroup:


Nordtvedt places the cluster that extends eastward as being quite a lot younger than I2c as a whole, something like 2000-2500 years old, so I'd call it a backmigration, but not an exceptionally old one. Any ideas? It seems that they were seafaring and got integrated a little into some Balkan cultures (but not Albanians, at least none found so far), Greeks and Cretans especially, Caucasians like Armenians and Georgians, and Eastern European Jews. And the origin (although not necessarily the beginning of the seafaring expansion) seems to be in or around Germany. Who fits all that is beyond me. It's probably the result of multiple migrations of different groups who all had it as a minority clade, and so it doesn't reflect a particular group well. I should also note that we need more diversity data for Greek and Balkan I2c, it may be only apparently low in diversity due to the lack of STR data from those regions in particular.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Venetians spread it to Balkans?


Wow, I would have never guessed the Venetians, but that map alone basically convinces me of their importance, at least for the Balkan and Greek carriers. Probably the only reason we haven't found any I2c in modern Venice yet is due to a lack of samples, but it would make sense, because we're getting closer to the center of diversity of I2c with Venice.

Some more theories:


As for the I2c in the Caucasus/Anatolia I strongly believe that they came with Phrigians/Meskhi from Balkans about 3000+ years ago. Historical sources verify that 2800 years ago they entered the territory of modern Georgia and established their capital city at Mtskheta (in Georgian the name means 'belonging to Meskhi). In Anatolia their main city was Mazaka (same Meskhi root) later Cesaria of Byzantium.
As for many I2c among modern ethnic Armenians, mostly they are from the historic Meskhi territories which were changing hands between Georgian, Armenian, Iranian and later Turkish realms.

Some more:


1) Cluster A. It has a couple little expansions in the formerly Brythonic area of Scotland and the Emmental in Switzerland (that's mine and haithabu's), and very thinly spread elsewhere in Western Europe. It could be a Beaker relic that got incorporated into both certain Celtic and Germanic cultures, although Nordtvedt keeps changing its TMRCA estimate, so I'm not confident.

(2) Cluster C. It seems more solidly Germanic than A, although it doesn't seem to have really expanded anywhere, remaining a tiny minority everywhere.

(3) European Cluster B. This is the bit that haithabu is proposing has close ties to the Venetian Republic, although it has a little bit outside that area. We're also not certain that all the I2c in, say, the Balkans is Cluster B, but that's the operating assumption at the moment.

(4) Asian Cluster B. Most prevalent in Armenians, at least that's what studies have shown so far, but also has an interesting presence in Georgians (like you Kardu) and Balkarians. I still don't feel confident in any explanation but suspect that this is the result of something different than (3).

(5) Jewish Cluster B. So far entirely Eastern European Jews AFAIK. How this happened I don't know, but they are the youngest subcluster, so we have to look recent, possibly as an offshoot of (3) or (4). This is that big splotch on both maps north of the Black Sea.

[Stefan_Dusan]

A lot of Georgian noble families seem to be of I2c :


I'm becoming convinced that the nobility connection of Caucasian I2c-B is real. But is it just coincidence that Caucasian nobility have a rare European-origin haplogroup? Or does that pattern match something expected?

Here's another question: do the noble Georgian I2c and/or noble Armenian I2c cluster closely together? If so, the nobility connection is probably best explained by coincidence, and doesn't give us clues as to the origin of Caucasian I2c. If not, and they are diverse enough to connect at or near the MRCA of the cluster, then the nobility connection will likely actually explain the origin.

[safinator]

You should just wait to see what cluster you fall in and you'll resolve the mystery.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Anyways I might not be I2c and I guess I don't know which branch of I2c I am (if I'm I2c) I found this history interesting


The History of I2c

I2c is a subclade of Haplogroup I, the only surviving Y-DNA haplogroup that can be said with high confidence to have been in Europe since the Paleolithic. By around the beginning of the Neolithic in Europe, I2c had bottlenecked into three major branches, all of which did not expand until significantly later, remaining minority clades in populations near the Rhine.

The first to expand was the "C" branch. Although perhaps the least common nowadays, it diversified within Western Europe nearly 4000 years ago, probably around the Middle Rhine, from which it became a minority clade in some tribes, mostly Celtic and maybe some Germanic. It is still a trace haplogroup everywhere it is found.

The "A" branch waited another 1000 years or so, but followed a similar pattern to "C." Having a strong affinity to I2a2b, it was apparently a tiny trace minority clade within Urnfield Culture before having some minor success in expanding with the Iron Age Celts. Minor expansions on the Brythonic area of Scotland and the Emmental in Switzerland made it perhaps surpass "C" in numbers.

Both "A" and "C" are dwarfed in numbers by "B." Although it expanded late, around the same time as "A," and shares a Western center of diversity, probably not too far from the Rhine, most of the expansion of "B" happened in Eastern Europe and Asia. Some minor gene flow had some "B" carriers end up in Southeastern Europe as a small minority, where some stayed and others, as part of the Phrygian/Mushki migrations, ended up in Anatolia. Those who remained in Southeastern Europe remained a small minority, and maybe even bottlenecked further, before finding some minor success within the Venetian Republic, especially in Crete, and also later with a Jewish family who expanded significantly Northward. Those who moved onto Anatolia became even luckier, as "B" found itself into the local nobility, expanding accordingly and becoming perhaps the most common I subclade in Asia.

The B branch is the one found in Caucasian populations.

[Drawing-slim]

All my male cousins from my paternal side are embracing this. One even commented he always wanted to see Kavkaz mountains and now knows why :laugh:

Don't forget when I first joined, the Bosnians and Albanians were accusing me of being a Chechen :laugh:

I would be very very proud to be genetically Chechen. I've repeatedly said this.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I would be very very proud to be genetically Chechen. I've repeatedly said this.

I think Chechens are primarily J2a something, Jaxman has embraced his Chechen paternal haplogroup :D

As to I2c, if I am, some sources say it originated in western German and spread to Caucasus, some sources say it originated in Caucasus and spread to Europe, it's all mind fuck.

[Drawing-slim]

So if I take this FTDNA rest would I expect to have any different results from the I2a2b that I already got on 23andme??

[Stefan_Dusan]

So if I take this FTDNA rest would I expect to have any different results from the I2a2b that I already got on 23andme??

Probably not, 23andMe had me as I2 probably because I2c is such recent discovery, 23andMe didn't run tests against it. However, you will find more specific matches on your Y-DNA, so you can see who your real male progenitor was. 23andMe focus on autosomal, but we from the Balkans only care about our one, paternal line xD

[Drawing-slim]

I think Chechens are primarily J2a something, Jaxman has embraced his Chechen paternal haplogroup :D

As to I2c, if I am, some sources say it originated in western German and spread to Caucasus, some sources say it originated in Caucasus and spread to Europe, it's all mind fuck.
If it originated in Europe and spread there, you being from Kosovo it just means that you're Albanian descend from Alexander the Great's soldiers that went there with him. There's no other explanation.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Like I said bro, you are megalithic farmer stock, not newcomer.

[Stefan_Dusan]

If it originated in Europe and spread there, you being from Kosovo it just means that you're Albanian descend from Alexander the Great's soldiers that went there with him. There's no other explanation.

It seems from all my readings that I2c, the oldest branch of I, only survived in very isolated places. On Crete, it's above 5% which may sound low, but for I2c is notably high. In the Caucasus it survives only in isolated mountain valleys, of which all of the Georgian nobility seem to be derived. In Western Europe, it seems to only survive in the Scottish alps, the western facing side, safe from Viking invasions. It seems the men who preserved this old haplogroup did by living in isolated mountains or islands.

Which brings to mine, we say came to Kosovo by 1292 from the mountains of Albania. We would have been isolated group to preserve one of Europe's oldest haplogroup. Or so I tell myself :laugh:

Maybe I need to donate sperm and make sure I reintroduce I2c to the world. It could be my promotional, like some say attractive medicine doctor, I say rarest and oldest and most original European haplogroup :cool:

[Stefan_Dusan]

So this is starting to become a blog, but I literally got chilled from excitement reading this:

Distribution of I2c:


My major sources and their results:
Primary distribution data from I2*, new ISOGG I2b and I2c Haplogroup Project
6% in Crete per King et al 2008
4% in Kazbegi per Wells et al 2001, 0% among other Georgians
9% among Georgians per 23andMe
0% among Georgians per Litvinov et al 2010
0% among Georgians per Battaglia et al 2008
4% among Armenians per Wells et al 2001
4% among Armenians per Armenian DNA Project
non-trace levels among Emmentalers per The Swiss Anabaptist DNA Project
non-trace levels among Clan Wallace per Wallace-WALLIS Y-DNA Project

So besides nobility of Armenian and Georgian families, and Cretan farmers it's found in the Emmentalers (Swiss Mountaineers) and the Wallace Clan (Scottish Mountaineers). It can be said with undoubted confidence that I2c is the haplogroup of the mountains, being found in the Caucasus Alps, Swiss Alps, Scottish Alps, and now Dinaric Alps

In me is piece of history from ancient European days only preserved in the mountains.

:)

[Stefan_Dusan]

Crete also happens to be mountains:


Crete is mountainous, and its character is defined by a high mountain range crossing from west to east, formed by three different groups of mountains:

Not to mention an isolated Greek island in Mediterranean, with strong ancient character. I2c, the ancient haplogroup of the mountains!

[Stefan_Dusan]

So I actually got all my 37 markers, the Serbian geneticist is going with I2c but he can't place me in a branch. Furthermore, I matched 3 Armenians from Turkey in the first 12 markers I got back, with the subsequent 25 markers, I no longer match them anymore, never mind I don't match anyone. With 37 markers my haplogroup is just orbiting by itself in genetic space.


Hello, my friend.

I just saw you got all 37 markers. All three guys you matched with on 12 are now no more your matches, nor on 25 nor on 37. Is I told you might be. You are not close to them. And I see all three of them are Armenians,


Yes, it is normal you match completely with no one. It si normal even for much bigger HGs. And I2c is very rare, comparing with many others.

I am not sure which branch you are. You can se it here, on project I2c. Maybe you are indeed closest to Caucasian branch, but it is not 100% sure. You are not very close to those three Armenian guys from Turkey.
And branch names constantly change, I see even D and G subranches, so I am not sure it still stands division on ABC.

He went on and announced my results, as the first Serb with I2c, he cautioned and this is translated from Serbian:


His finding is very puzzling, not to be classified clearly and unambiguously in any subgroup.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I might be a new subgroup, discovered right here in Member on Apricity xD

My STR's:



DYS393 - 14
DYS390 - 24
DYS1 - 15
DYS391 - 10
DYS385 - 12-14
DYS426 - 11
DYS388 - 13
DYS439 - 11
DYS389I - 13
DYS392 - 11
DYS389II - 30
DYS458 - 19
DYS459 - 8-8
DYS455 - 11
DYS454 - 11
DYS447 - 24
DYS437 - 15
DYS448 - 20
DYS449 - 34
DYS464 - 11-14-16-16
DYS460 - 11
Y-GATA-H4 - 10
YCAII - 19-21
DYS456 - 14
DYS607 - 14
DYS576 - 17
DYS570 - 20
CDY - 33-38
DYS442 - 12
DYS438 - 10


While it's cool to be such a rare, ancient, and mysterious haplogroup at same time it would be cool to get a bunch of matches xD

[Artek]

Pretty cool to be a relic, eh? :). Maybe they will fund you an YFull

[Stefan_Dusan]

So I'm following the Serbians go back and forth on my result, this is one response, translated:


Really really strange results, but I think there is no doubt that it belongs to haplogroup I2c L596 or L597.

This haplogroup certainly falls into the category of "indigenous haplogroup" and certainly did not come with the Slavs. We find this in Iran, Armenia, Georgia, Turkey, the Balkans, the western Mediterranean, including the British Isles. Recalls this follows somewhat the distribution J2b M205. Just much much more rare. What a puzzle

Another one goes:


Haplogroup I2c is very rare and in it's highest percenteges on areas of this maps it doesn't go higher than 5% except on Crete where goes up to 10%, which would make sense, because it is possible that ancient Cretans (because of greek Mycenean conquest of Crete 1700 BC) were main carriers of this HaploGroup, it's was brought there by greeks, and that's more reliable theory to whom this I2c aplogroup belonged, means it's very possible that Mycenean greeks were it's carriers, just look where it spread itself.

This is also very exciting but disturbing at the same time. I'm a Serb who doesn't descend from Serbs at some point in history!?!?! Who were we maybe 2000 years ago? Were we in the Balkans? Carpathians? Greece? Caucasus?

The rarity of this haplogroup is as much frustrating as its rewarding. I can't have an ahah moment, but at the same time I swell with pride. The more I dig at my farther's lineage, the more mysterious it is. So old, it's left so few traces, so many missing pieces that every theory makes sense and doesn't at same time.

I still remember one ritual we have, when we slaughter lamb, we put the blood raw in rakija and drink. Besides being brutal ritual, I remembered it because as a kid i was disgusted by it, and one of my relatives, probably drunk, tries to boost my pride, and he points at the villages all around, and says none of them have this tradition. This is the tradition of your family, and it's an ancient tradition passed from uninterrupted lines of forefathers. I learned later this tradition later is very very anti Christian and one priest got into a fight with my father on our slava while witnessing it.

Do people from Caucasus, do Greeks, maybe Cretans, do something resemble this tradition!?!?!

[cally]

Congratulations :)

[Pjeter Pan]

So I'm following the Serbians go back and forth on my result, this is one response, translated:



Another one goes:



This is also very exciting but disturbing at the same time. I'm a Serb who doesn't descend from Serbs at some point in history!?!?! Who were we maybe 2000 years ago? Were we in the Balkans? Carpathians? Greece? Caucasus?

The rarity of this haplogroup is as much frustrating as its rewarding. I can't have an ahah moment, but at the same time I swell with pride. The more I dig at my farther's lineage, the more mysterious it is. So old, it's left so few traces, so many missing pieces that every theory makes sense and doesn't at same time.

I still remember one ritual we have, when we slaughter lamb, we put the blood raw in rakija and drink. Besides being brutal ritual, I remembered it because as a kid i was disgusted by it, and one of my relatives, probably drunk, tries to boost my pride, and he points at the villages all around, and says none of them have this tradition. This is the tradition of your family, and it's an ancient tradition passed from uninterrupted lines of forefathers. I learned later this tradition later is very very anti Christian and one priest got into a fight with my father on our slava while witnessing it.

Do people from Caucasus, do Greeks, maybe Cretans, do something resemble this tradition!?!?!
The Vietnamese take the heart of a snake, put it in a small class with liqour and drink it. Maybe your from there.

[StonyArabia]

You probably has Gothic ancestors.

[1stLightHorse]

You probably descend from some of the earliest modern human being that ever stepped foot into Europe.

The original cromagnon niggaz that started slaughtering and raping neanderthals. They entered Europe through the Balkans/Anatolia, so there would have to be some remnants today.

[Stefan_Dusan]

You probably has Gothic ancestors.

Ostrogths are believed to be either I2a or I1 people. I2c is not there marker, though maybe a Goth or two had it.

[Artek]

Ostrogths are believed to be either I2a or I1 people. I2c is not there marker, though maybe a Goth or two had it.
I bet Ostrogoths were quite mixed in those terms. And they weren't from Scandinavia. Gothic was more like an old-High German than like a Swedish or Danish.

[SkyBurn]

23andme gave me an I2 with a non-specific subhaplogroup, but I'm probably I2c or something. Congrats on your results, maybe we're related somewhere down the line! haha

[Stefan_Dusan]

23andme gave me an I2 with a non-specific subhaplogroup, but I'm probably I2c or something. Congrats on your results, maybe we're related somewhere down the line! haha

Actually Jews have it in some levels, the people on the project said this:


the sub-group entered Ashkenazi Jews from the Khazars, who themselves got it from Ossetians, who got it from Armenians...


However my STRs predate the Ashkenazi Jew ones and are closer to Armenians, however I took 67 marker to see what happens. Both me and you share one of the oldest European haplogroups ever discovered xD

[Vojnik]

I-P37^That's what I get in FTDNA. Not sure what to make of it though.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I-P37^That's what I get in FTDNA. Not sure what to make of it though.

This is subgroup of I-M438 which is I2a2b, which is what you show on 23andMe :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438

It's kinda funny we should trade haplogroups I need Serbian one :D

[Artek]

I-P37^That's what I get in FTDNA. Not sure what to make of it though.
I would recommend to test CTS5966 or CTS10936 which are both downstream of M423. But first, I would like to know a few of your matches.

[Vojnik]

This is subgroup of I-M438 which is I2a2b, which is what you show on 23andMe :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438

It's kinda funny we should trade haplogroups I need Serbian one :D

Maybe a blood transfusion will work. I take yours, you take mine. :D

[Vojnik]

I would recommend to test CTS5966 or CTS10936 which are both downstream of M423. But first, I would like to know a few of your matches.

I seem to get alot of matches with people from eastern Europe. Mostly Bosnia & Herzegovina and Ukraine, but also some from Poland and Romania.

[kuqezi]

Stefan, I2c since it is so old could have survived in the mountainous western Balkans since its a refuge area. That would make them part of the Illyrian composition. The problem is it could have came with anyone between then and the middle ages. Could also have been someone from afar that could have been from any number of different European or even Caucasian peoples that got stuck in our area in any part of that time frame. Your best hope is that some larger Serb or Albanian clan/brotherhood is discovered to carry the marker to give you a better chance tracking it back into history.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Stefan, I2c since it is so old could have survived in the mountainous western Balkans since its a refuge area. That would make them part of the Illyrian composition. The problem is it could have came with anyone between then and the middle ages. Could also have been someone from afar that could have been from any number of different European or even Caucasian peoples that got stuck in our area in any part of that time frame. Your best hope is that some larger Serb or Albanian clan/brotherhood is discovered to carry the marker to give you a better chance tracking it back into history.

There was a Montenegrin on 23andMe with simple "I2" as me, which is possible he is I2c as me. We are related too, but he never responded or shared with me. In additional there is a Croat from Split with "I2" and a Bulgarian with "I2", the Croat claims to paternally descend from people of Split while the Bulgarian is a Shopi but claims his male progenitor ultimately came from Austria-Hungarian empire. So who knows there.

On ftDNA there is an Albanian who I think is from Gruda who is I2c, but there is some distance between our STRs, mine appears to transcend his again in time. The problem is by legend my paternal progenitor came from some isolated area in northern Albania, and the people there are probably not so much tested.

[kuqezi]

There was a Montenegrin on 23andMe with simple "I2" as me, which is possible he is I2c as me. We are related too, but he never responded or shared with me. In additional there is a Croat from Split with "I2" and a Bulgarian with "I2", the Croat claims to paternally descend from people of Split while the Bulgarian is a Shopi but claims his male progenitor ultimately came from Austria-Hungarian empire. So who knows there.

On ftDNA there is an Albanian who I think is from Gruda who is I2c, but there is some distance between our STRs, mine appears to transcend his again in time. The problem is by legend my paternal progenitor came from some isolated area in northern Albania, and the people there are probably not so much tested.

When your family history says you come from the mountains to the West how do you know they didn't mean Drenica? And north Albania is southwest of your village, directly west is Montenegro.

[Stefan_Dusan]

When your family history says you come from the mountains to the West how do you know they didn't mean Drenica? And north Albania is southwest of your village, directly west is Montenegro.

Because I remember hearing when my father talked about our legend, he mentioned it was now in Albania. He would remark this in the sense that northern Albania used to be part of Serbian Empire. But he never mentioned a village, an area or anything like that. Or maybe I forgot it. But the official story is Milosh came as a mercenary during the initial conquests of Kosovo and was small lord, who moved several times before founding.

However, different wings of my family say different things TBH. I remember mentioning what my father said, and the man (from another wing, several brothers removed from my grandfather) responded "he never heard that from his father", this wing claims to be from a village in northeast Kosovo who moved down but their point of reference is not 1292! And much later, so maybe the stories are compatible even on the surface if there is disagreement.

However, the official book compiled by a different wing (not sure exact relation to him, many generations here) of the family lists Milosh and his origins are listed as "Unknown".

This is primarily why I'm interested to track my father's haplogroup, to affirm or deny his legend.

[kuqezi]

Because I remember hearing when my father talked about our legend, he mentioned it was now in Albania. He would remark this in the sense that northern Albania used to be part of Serbian Empire. But he never mentioned a village, an area or anything like that. Or maybe I forgot it. But the official story is Milosh came as a mercenary during the initial conquests of Kosovo and was small lord, who moved several times before founding.

However, different wings of my family say different things TBH. I remember mentioning what my father said, and the man (from another wing, several brothers removed from my grandfather) responded "he never heard that from his father", this wing claims to be from a village in northeast Kosovo who moved down but their point of reference is not 1292! And much later, so maybe the stories are compatible even on the surface if there is disagreement.

However, the official book compiled by a different wing (not sure exact relation to him, many generations here) of the family lists Milosh and his origins are listed as "Unknown".

This is primarily why I'm interested to track my father's haplogroup, to affirm or deny his legend.

Where do you guys get that date 1292? Is there a record. I had a feeling your family story was a little arbitrary and now knowing there is a alternate story of coming from the northeast makes it seem all the more so. No offense.

I've read books about Albanians families in Kosovo that arbitrarily say that the family was known during the times of Scanderbeg as a patriotic family etc.. The fact that the name is Milosh makes me think its made up, as I would choose that name if I were a patriotic Serb making up a legend. If it were a name like Dabizhiv I'd be more inclined to believe it. How many generations back do you recall your male line with certainty by name?

[Stefan_Dusan]

Where do you guys get that date 1292? Is there a record. I had a feeling your family story was a little arbitrary and now knowing there is a alternate story of coming from the northeast makes it seem all the more so. No offense.

There is actually, it's a book. I discovered this last year, as my father nor his wing of the family up kept this book but a completely different wing of the family.

It's actually funny story, I was visiting some uncles, and on bus stop, some strange man I never met before comes up to me and asks for me by my exact name. It almost started me, and I thought I was in trouble with someone. But he gave me a business card. Later I met up with him, and his purpose was merely to fill out this book, he was asking about children and the wing of my family in USA. This is where I got 1292 from as it's recorded there, I remember asking him how he got this date and he smartly replied to me that he actually didn't get this number, he assumes his grandfather did somewhere from church records. Most of the names don't have dates at all except for this Milosh.

Anyways, I never met any grandparent because they all died before I was born. This is sad thing about my family, we die young. It's very not typical to make it much past 50 years of age. However, by memory recitation I can go to great- great-grandfather which doesn't get me past 1800s let alone 1292.

[kuqezi]

There is actually, it's a book. I discovered this last year, as my father nor his wing of the family up kept this book but a completely different wing of the family.

It's actually funny story, I was visiting some uncles, and on bus stop, some strange man I never met before comes up to me and asks for me by my exact name. It almost started me, and I thought I was in trouble with someone. But he gave me a business card. Later I met up with him, and his purpose was merely to fill out this book, he was asking about children and the wing of my family in USA. This is where I got 1292 from as it's recorded there, I remember asking him how he got this date and he smartly replied to me that he actually didn't get this number, he assumes his grandfather did somewhere from church records. Most of the names don't have dates at all except for this Milosh.

Anyways, I never met any grandparent because they all died before I was born. This is sad thing about my family, we die young. It's very not typical to make it much past 50 years of age. However, by memory recitation I can go to great- great-grandfather which doesn't get me past 1800s let alone 1292.

The author of that book should have made it a priority to find that church record. I don't see how his grandfather could have discovered it as a sheep raising villager back in the day. Most Kosovar Albanians including myself can trace can trace their line some generations more than their great-great grandfather.

[Stefan_Dusan]

The author of that book should have made it a priority to find that church record. I don't see how his grandfather could have discovered it as a sheep raising villager back in the day. Most Kosovar Albanians including myself can trace can trace their line some generations more than their great-great grandfather.

The book is a family record, I guess he trusts whoever handed it down to him.

So you can by memory recite past great-great-grandfather? That's very impressive. By trace, the book is good enough for me, as it shows names, children all the way to me. And those others wings can be traced back also through that book.

[kuqezi]

So you can by memory recite past great-great-grandfather? That's very impressive.

Yes three generations past that. Most Kosovo Albanians can do the same or more. If muslim the last name/generation in the line is usually a Catholic and is usually the one who came from northern Albania to Kosovo. Thats a part of our patriarchal culture. I'm surprised you can't go further back. I know Montenegrins are on par with Malsors and can go very back in their line.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Yes three generations past that. Most Kosovo Albanians can do the same or more. If muslim the last name/generation in the line is usually a Catholic and is usually the one who came from northern Albania to Kosovo. Thats a part of our patriarchal culture. I'm surprised you can't go further back. I know Montenegrins are on par with Malsors and can go very back in their line.

I can go to 1292, I just don't have the tree memorized past great-great-grandfather. I honestly don't know many people who can rattle off their great-grandfather without consulting their tree, Albanians or otherwise but I take your word for it.

[kuqezi]

I can go to 1292, I just don't have the tree memorized past great-great-grandfather. I honestly don't know many people who can rattle off their great-grandfather without consulting their tree, Albanians or otherwise but I take your word for it.

With Albanians nothing is written down, its all oral. I'm a young guy and in my generation its rare to know your genealogy since not many care nowadays, but with my father's generation its absolutely very common and it would be a shame not to know.

Serbs are lucky to have church records though.

[Stefan_Dusan]

With Albanians nothing is written down, its all oral. I'm a young guy and in my generation its rare to know your genealogy since not many care nowadays, but with my father's generation its absolutely very common and it would be a shame not to know.

Serbs are lucky to have church records though.

It was oral at some point as well before written down. As to the church record, I don't think I was clear, it was the establishment of my village. 1292 is not the birthdate of Milosh, but rather when he settled in Prugoc. This is when we begin to trace, there are no birthdates even listed for his sons and much of the tree until recent generations.

[Skerdilaid]

It was oral at some point as well before written down. As to the church record, I don't think I was clear, it was the establishment of my village. 1292 is not the birthdate of Milosh, but rather when he settled in Prugoc. This is when we begin to trace, there are no birthdates even listed for his sons and much of the tree until recent generations.

What's the make up of Prugofc ethnically?

[Stefan_Dusan]

What's the make up of Prugofc ethnically?

During my time, it was 50-50 Serb and Albanian as I remember. each side distant. Now there is a factory there or some big building and most buildings there are deserted. But there is still some Serbs, but most are Albanians. It's a shell of it's old self, not that it used to be majestic

[Skerdilaid]

During my time, it was 50-50 Serb and Albanian as I remember. each side distant. Now there is a factory there or some big building and most buildings there are deserted. But there is still some Serbs, but most are Albanians. It's a shell of it's old self, not that it used to be majestic

I have noticed around that area Albanian and Serbs look quite alike in phenotype, very strange.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I have noticed around that area Albanian and Serbs look quite alike in phenotype, very strange.

Well honestly until I begin reading these forums, it never occurred to me I was slav and you were an Albanian. I was a Serb, and you were Albanian. If this makes sense. But that we were racially different people, it did not occur to me until the USA.

[kuqezi]

I have noticed around that area Albanian and Serbs look quite alike in phenotype, very strange.

Would you say the Albs look more Serb or the Serbs more Alb?

[alb0zfinest]

Lol sker you and stefan have the oddest relationship. One minute you are wanting to fight each other in real life, the next you need to get a room, like what is this shit :D

[Stefan_Dusan]

Lol sker you and stefan have the oddest relationship. One minute you are wanting to fight each other in real life, the next you need to get a room, like what is this shit :D

I like Skerdi tbh, sometimes I get angry with him, but it's only political. As a person I like him. It would be nice if we weren't Serb or Albanian.

[alb0zfinest]

I like Skerdi tbh, sometimes I get angry with him, but it's only political. As a person I like him. It would be nice if we weren't Serb or Albanian.

I stopped reading after this :D

[Skerdilaid]

Would you say the Albs look more Serb or the Serbs more Alb?

To be honest Albos look more "Serb" and one thing is for sure that the Vlah element seems to be strong there. Once you reach Obilic and West then Albanians look standard, and same thing in the East too, once you hit Makovc.


Breznica is known to have magicians and falltor, some very strange folk. Maybe Stefan can tell us a bit about them.

[Skerdilaid]

Lol sker you and stefan have the oddest relationship. One minute you are wanting to fight each other in real life, the next you need to get a room, like what is this shit :D

Sup, you want to blow me?:D

[alb0zfinest]

Sup, you want to blow me?:D

No thanks, seems like you are busy with other men for now :D

[Skerdilaid]

No thanks, seems like you are busy with other men for now :D

There is always room for you brother, we can make a sandwich out of you:D

[Stefan_Dusan]

I have king sized bed, perfect for all 3 of us, are you ready AlbozFinest :cool:

[Stefan_Dusan]

Breznica is known to have magicians and falltor, some very strange folk. Maybe Stefan can tell us a bit about them.

Other than gypsy/ashkali people I don't know. However, my mother is SUPER superstitious. I remember when I brought a girlfriend back in high school, and I spilled salt, she angrily pick some up and tossed over my shoulder.

She will rest in home if she see black cat for at least one day.

And just many mind fucks living in west.

[Skerdilaid]

I have king sized bed, perfect for all 3 of us, are you ready AlbozFinest :cool:

I have an old school Albo "Oda" with cushions corner to corner, just saying.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I have an old school Albo "Oda" with cushions corner to corner, just saying.

True to my gypsy roots, I just have mattress on floor, makes it easy to move xD

I say we go back to your place, and break in AlbozFinest, at first sweetly and gently but then we can grow rough :D

[Skerdilaid]

Other than gypsy/ashkali people I don't know. However, my mother is SUPER superstitious. I remember when I brought a girlfriend back in high school, and I spilled salt, she angrily pick some up and tossed over my shoulder.

She will rest in home if she see black cat for at least one day.

And just many mind fucks living in west.

Have you been to Breznica?

[Stefan_Dusan]

Have you been to Breznica?

Never tbh, it's just some village northwest of mine. I have never had reason to be there. Or let me rephrase, if I was there, I don't remember

[kuqezi]

Have you been to Breznica?

I know that those people are gypsy-like the way they live with that kind of magic stuff. They are darker and more like gypsies from what I hear. Haven't seen for myself if the strangeness in looks is a different kind of asiatic or more gypsy.

[Skerdilaid]

I know that those people are gypsy-like the way they live with that kind of magic stuff. They are darker and more like gypsies from what I hear. Haven't seen for myself if the strangeness in looks is a different kind of asiatic or more gypsy.

I don't remember all the phenotypes now, because last time I was in that area was actually during the war, but they did strike me as strange and weird looking Serbs and Albanians. I have not seen much the Serbs except the ones from Devet Jugovic, my cousins car broke down in that village so I got to see quite a bit of them. I have been there only during summer, as my mother has an aunt married in Prugoc and one in Rimanisht, and in general very poor area. I also have been in Mazgit, and to be honest some Mahallas looked like Gypsies, now I am not sure if they were Gypsies as they were speaking Albanian.

[kuqezi]

I don't remember all the phenotypes now, because last time I was in that area was actually during the war, but they did strike me as strange and weird looking Serbs and Albanians. I have not seen much the Serbs except the ones from Devet Jugovic, my cousins car broke down in that village so I got to see quite a bit of them. I have been there only during summer, as my mother has an aunt married in Prugoc and one in Rimanisht, and in general very poor area. I also have been in Mazgit, and to be honest some Mahallas looked like Gypsies, now I am not sure if they were Gypsies as they were speaking Albanian.

My cousin's wife is from Mazgit and at least they look typically Albanian and are not Gypsy-like in behavior or anything. My family though doesn't have a high opinion of plain dwelling Albs. They say they didn't have anything to live on since they were bad farmers so they made their living a lot from stupid things like stealing etc.

[Skerdilaid]

My cousin's wife is from Mazgit and at least they look typically Albanian and are not Gypsy-like in behavior or anything. My family though doesn't have a high opinion of plain dwelling Albs. They say they didn't have anything to live on since they were bad farmers so they made their living a lot from stupid things like stealing etc.

Those villages actually have been re-populated with people from villages Hade and Ballaqevc since 70s and up, because they got dislocated by the TermoElectrana. Their land got taken away so they can mine, and quite a bit of them relocated in Mazgit, Prugovc and the surrounding villages, and the difference is quite visible. The new comers are more Albo in phenotype, plus their neighborhood look much better then the original folk of those villages.

In Drenica, we have a lot of jokes about these folks from these plains:D And, they can't stand us from Drenica.

[kuqezi]

Those villages actually have been re-populated with people from villages Hade and Ballaqevc since 70s and up, because they got dislocated by the TermoElectrana. Their land got taken away so they can mine, and quite a bit of them relocated in Mazgit, Prugovc and the surrounding villages, and the difference is quite visible. The new comers are more Albo in phenotype, plus their neighborhood look much better then the original folk of those villages.

Most likely they are new comers then. Do you guys also say though that Serbs don't keep their areas in good condition? I've noticed that they say si te shkijet when an Albs home compound isn't kept well.


In Drenica, we have a lot of jokes about these folks from these plains:D And, they can't stand us from Drenica.

I would very much like to hear some of those joke. :D

[Stefan_Dusan]

I have not seen much the Serbs except the ones from Devet Jugovic, my cousins car broke down in that village so I got to see quite a bit of them.

Bardhosh was primarily an Albanian area when I was a child, Serbs start west as you enter Obilic field from Jugovica.

Anyways, my area was poor principally for two reasons, we did not participate with Ottomans, and we did not farm. We were in fact reliant on the Serbs in Obilic field often, but to which they get their protection. Speak to the Serb families of the Obilic about the Progovci/Progoni and they glow actually. This is what surprised me on my last visit.

Anyways, I keep telling this story but it's relevant. Back in time, concerning what I think is great-great-great-grandfather (later of 1700s), one of my male members converted to Islam and took a Muslim bride from a rich family. As was custom then, she came with huge dowry in the form of the nicest china from in fact china. Plates and silverware probably altogether worth more than this man ever had in his life, let alone to now eat off of. The story of how he got to marry this rich Muslim woman was that he became a distinguished mercenary for the Turks. Anyways, this was great shame on my family. So my great-great-great-grandfather (I personally forgot this exactly as its a story told to me as a kid by my father, too bad he didn't write it down) and some of his brothers stormed into the wedding on horseback. On that wedding day they had laid out all that china in display of the wealthy. Both the disgraced, the bride and her family watched in horror as these men on horseback destroyed their wedding, all their china (my great-great-great-grandfather jumped on the table with the china on his horse, and stomped them to pieces). This started a family feud, the disgraced became an Albanian family and settled elsewhere in Kosovo. There is a chance this Muslim bride was raped by my great-great-great-grandfather as well as supreme insult to the shamed, so he had no choice.

But anyways, the above shows things, Ottoman authority was weak thing in my area, and we had a tradition of horses which is both rare for Albanians and Serbs in Kosovo.

The closest village to mine is Besinje, it's an Albanian village from the name Besi, but it comes from Serbian word Besan (Furious) because back when the people there were Serbs from another clan. Supposedly their progenitor was such hothead, he was kicked out of his original village and settled there. If you bring this up to the Besi they will laugh at you and say they were always Albanian. But what is interesting is ask them who were the progovci in neighboring village and their relation with them ;)

[LightHouse89]

i wouldnt mind getting a DNA test done.....although my heritage I think would be very predictable.... judging from family tree webs and looking at the locations of ancestors and where they came from in Europe.

[Stefan_Dusan]

One thing about horses, until recently we raised beautiful horses. During WW2, my grandfather was in the cavalry, and he was on the Serbs who foolishly charged German tanks on horses. There is a picture of him on a horse, posing with his sword and rifle, I should have taken this picture, next time I go.

I posted him displaying a huge trophy after WW2. I don't know why this trophy, but probably for bravery, there is a saying that on horseback, he was never scared as bullets flew by him, he never flinched.

Our horses are thing of legend, as I said most to no Albanians or Serbs raise horses. This allowed my family to be very successful militarily. And we did a bit of raiding because we could escape with great speed. So we made our lives by stealing.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Arianiti,

You hilarious son of a gypsy's whore,

You first ignore me so I can't respond to you on your wall or PM. Now you go to my thread, you must have lifted the ignore for this. Once a coward, always a coward. But can't expect anything from a whore's son.

[Arianiti]

Arianiti,

You hilarious son of a gypsy's whore,

You first ignore me so I can't respond to you on your wall or PM. Now you go to my thread, you must have lifted the ignore for this. Once a coward, always a coward. But can't expect anything from a whore's son.

So you are from Prugovc you piece of shit. A colonizer. No need to ignore one son of the whore. You speak bad of albos and now flirt with them. Hypocrite. Did you cry to mods to delete my posts on your wall piece of shit.

Coward of one shit?


P.S Tell me, at what year did your colonizer familyt moved to Prugovc as I have some distant family there.

.

[Stefan_Dusan]

So you are from Prugovc you piece of shit. A colonizer. No need to ignore one son of the whore. You speak bad of albos and now flirt with them. Hypocrite. Did you cry to mods to delete my posts on your wall piece of shit.

Coward of one shit?


P.S Tell me, at what year did your colonizer familyt moved to Prugovc as I have some distant family there.

.

You have distant family in Pruogvac, tell me their names right now :D

No I deleted them, since you were a coward and ignored me preventing me to respond to you.

[Arianiti]

You have distant family in Pruogvac, tell me their names right now :D


If you mean Prugovc near Prishtina, so yes I do. Why do you need their names ? Careful boy as they are son of the bitches ;)

[Stefan_Dusan]

If you mean Prugovc near Prishtina, so yes I do. Why do you need their names ? Careful boy as they are son of the bitches ;)

Are you calling your own family sons of bitches :D

[Skerdilaid]

Arianit is from Breznica;)

[Arianiti]

Are you calling your own family sons of bitches :D

That was only rhetoric ;)

[Arianiti]

Arianit is from Breznica;)

You know too much, careful as that might be dangerous.

[Skerdilaid]

Bardhosh was primarily an Albanian area when I was a child, Serbs start west as you enter Obilic field from Jugovica.

Anyways, my area was poor principally for two reasons, we did not participate with Ottomans, and we did not farm. We were in fact reliant on the Serbs in Obilic field often, but to which they get their protection. Speak to the Serb families of the Obilic about the Progovci/Progoni and they glow actually. This is what surprised me on my last visit.

Anyways, I keep telling this story but it's relevant. Back in time, concerning what I think is great-great-great-grandfather (later of 1700s), one of my male members converted to Islam and took a Muslim bride from a rich family. As was custom then, she came with huge dowry in the form of the nicest china from in fact china. Plates and silverware probably altogether worth more than this man ever had in his life, let alone to now eat off of. The story of how he got to marry this rich Muslim woman was that he became a distinguished mercenary for the Turks. Anyways, this was great shame on my family. So my great-great-great-grandfather (I personally forgot this exactly as its a story told to me as a kid by my father, too bad he didn't write it down) and some of his brothers stormed into the wedding on horseback. On that wedding day they had laid out all that china in display of the wealthy. Both the disgraced, the bride and her family watched in horror as these men on horseback destroyed their wedding, all their china (my great-great-great-grandfather jumped on the table with the china on his horse, and stomped them to pieces). This started a family feud, the disgraced became an Albanian family and settled elsewhere in Kosovo. There is a chance this Muslim bride was raped by my great-great-great-grandfather as well as supreme insult to the shamed, so he had no choice.

But anyways, the above shows things, Ottoman authority was weak thing in my area, and we had a tradition of horses which is both rare for Albanians and Serbs in Kosovo.

The closest village to mine is Besinje, it's an Albanian village from the name Besi, but it comes from Serbian word Besan (Furious) because back when the people there were Serbs from another clan. Supposedly their progenitor was such hothead, he was kicked out of his original village and settled there. If you bring this up to the Besi they will laugh at you and say they were always Albanian. But what is interesting is ask them who were the progovci in neighboring village and their relation with them ;)

Stefan, the only people that were allowed by Ottomans to raise horses in that region were in fact the Çerkez, so this fact now makes me more suspicious of your roots:D They have a strong tradition of horse breeding in that region, and Azem Bejta attacked them many times for their horses.


Besi can't be Serbian!

[Stefan_Dusan]

Stefan, the only people that were allowed by Ottomans to raise horses in that region were in fact the Çerkez, so this fact now makes me more suspicious of your roots:D They have a strong tradition of horse breeding in that region, and Azem Bejta attacked them many times for their horses.


Besi can't be Serbian!

I know you would respond this way which why I include juicy bit, too bad I'm 100% European on 23andMe though I2c is found in Kavkaz with Georgians, Armenians and Ossetians…… ;)

But seriously, all the old Serb nobility had a history of raising horses. It was Stefan Lazarevic who for example broke Timurlane (one of the greatest Mongol conquerors) with his Serbian horse cavalry. And the Hungarian cavalry used Serbian hussars


Another premise is offered by Byzantinist scholars, who argue the term originated in Roman military practice, and the cursarii (singular cursarius)Through Byzantine Army operations in the Balkans in the 10th and 11th centuries when Chosarioi/Chonsarioi were recruited with especially Serbs

Having a horse was as having a gun, all forbidden for Christians but all the warrior Serbs had them. Well for horses only my family because we are different than other Serbs, much more stubborn and more warrior in nature.

[Stefan_Dusan]

More stories about my family, because I swell with pride sharing our history:

My great-grandfather was lazy man. His father was always trying to get him to work, but he felt it beneath him, so his grandfather once gave him money to bribe doctor to say he was sick and not able to work.

Before WW1, my great-grandfather got into many feuds. And killed many men. Supposedly he had a gambling problem. One man he owed money to, he deliberately provoked quarrel by insulting his mother. The man, a manly man, couldn't let this go unanswered and took swung at my great-grandfather who took out pistol and shot him. And then said to authorities he was provoked. This was during the conquests of Kosovo, the Bulgarian front, he was in the army and basically untouchable.

He also during army days had problem with authority. Supposedly during early stages of WW1 he snuck out to visit a mistress of him (he had several as he was tall and very blonde with fierce blue eyes). Upon return to his supervising commander saw him, got angry and ordered him to clean all military laterines. He angry at such indignation "accidentally" shot and killed this supervising commander. He was sent to trial but never made it, as his father had connections. He was however sent to defend Beograd against Germans where he met his brave fate, and his blood now fertilizes the soil of Beograd showing our sacrifice!

[kuqezi]

Bardhosh was primarily an Albanian area when I was a child, Serbs start west as you enter Obilic field from Jugovica.

Anyways, my area was poor principally for two reasons, we did not participate with Ottomans, and we did not farm. We were in fact reliant on the Serbs in Obilic field often, but to which they get their protection. Speak to the Serb families of the Obilic about the Progovci/Progoni and they glow actually. This is what surprised me on my last visit.

Anyways, I keep telling this story but it's relevant. Back in time, concerning what I think is great-great-great-grandfather (later of 1700s), one of my male members converted to Islam and took a Muslim bride from a rich family. As was custom then, she came with huge dowry in the form of the nicest china from in fact china. Plates and silverware probably altogether worth more than this man ever had in his life, let alone to now eat off of. The story of how he got to marry this rich Muslim woman was that he became a distinguished mercenary for the Turks. Anyways, this was great shame on my family. So my great-great-great-grandfather (I personally forgot this exactly as its a story told to me as a kid by my father, too bad he didn't write it down) and some of his brothers stormed into the wedding on horseback. On that wedding day they had laid out all that china in display of the wealthy. Both the disgraced, the bride and her family watched in horror as these men on horseback destroyed their wedding, all their china (my great-great-great-grandfather jumped on the table with the china on his horse, and stomped them to pieces). This started a family feud, the disgraced became an Albanian family and settled elsewhere in Kosovo. There is a chance this Muslim bride was raped by my great-great-great-grandfather as well as supreme insult to the shamed, so he had no choice.

But anyways, the above shows things, Ottoman authority was weak thing in my area, and we had a tradition of horses which is both rare for Albanians and Serbs in Kosovo.

The closest village to mine is Besinje, it's an Albanian village from the name Besi, but it comes from Serbian word Besan (Furious) because back when the people there were Serbs from another clan. Supposedly their progenitor was such hothead, he was kicked out of his original village and settled there. If you bring this up to the Besi they will laugh at you and say they were always Albanian. But what is interesting is ask them who were the progovci in neighboring village and their relation with them ;)

From what you and Skerdi are saying to me it seems your family had an agreement with local Ottomans in exchange for privileges (raise horses, act with impunity etc). Prugovc is not exactly isolated and relatively close to Prishtina. The Ottoman ruling families like the Gjinolli were at times particularly harsh to Serbs around there and many times whole villages were cleared out or sent somewhere else. It makes sense as your village is almost like a Serb island that when the Serbia took over whole colonist villages like Devet Jugovic were set up nearby.

[Stefan_Dusan]

From what you and Skerdi are saying to me it seems your family had an agreement with local Ottomans in exchange for privileges (raise horses, act with impunity etc). Prugovc is not exactly isolated and relatively close to Prishtina. The Ottoman ruling families like the Gjinolli were at times particularly harsh to Serbs around there and many times whole villages were cleared out or sent somewhere else. It makes sense as your village is almost like a Serb island that when the Serbia took over whole colonist villages like Devet Jugovic were set up nearby.

Well you have to remember that Prishtina was really a village at those times. Or maybe word is large town. Prishtina only became large at time of modern railways due to it's importance of communication and transportation.

Prishtina area also had some Catholic Albanians who were crushed by Ottomans and mercenaries and they fled to Serbia. At the time, the people who chased them were mongolic people on horseback and most Catholic Albanian warriors don't have tradition of horse were easily killed and rushed on the battle field.

This is part how we remain, being able to fight from horse like my family can is equivalent to knowing how to man fighter jet. Very expensive and time costly to teach how to someone ride and shoot from horse but in medieval times very effective.

[kuqezi]

Well you have to remember that Prishtina was really a village at those times. Or maybe word is large town. Prishtina only became large at time of modern railways due to it's importance of communication and transportation.

Prishtina area also had some Catholic Albanians who were crushed by Ottomans and mercenaries and they fled to Serbia. At the time, the people who chased them were mongolic people on horseback and most Catholic Albanian warriors don't have tradition of horse were easily killed and rushed on the battle field.

This is part how we remain, being able to fight from horse like my family can is equivalent to knowing how to man fighter jet. Very expensive and time costly to teach how to someone ride and shoot from horse but in medieval times very effective.

Prishtina was the largest town and center of the area and was majority Slavic muslim with steady Albanization going on mainly due to the Krasniqi tribe. Given the geography and what happened to that whole area your village should have absolutely been Slavicized and later Albanized, unless it had some kind of privileged status with the local Ottoman authority. I'm telling you there is no way your family could have flaunted horses and weapons without incurring the wrath of the powerful local strongmen families that dominated the area. You must have had very shrewd and clever ancestors if they were able to position themselves in such a way to remain Orthodox and still live the way they did.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Prishtina was the largest town and center of the area and was majority Slavic muslim with steady Albanization going on mainly due to the Krasniqi tribe. Given the geography and what happened to that whole area your village should have absolutely been Slavicized and later Albanized, unless it had some kind of privileged status with the local Ottoman authority. I'm telling you there is no way your family could have flaunted horses and weapons without incurring the wrath of the powerful local strongmen families that dominated the area. You must have had very shrewd and clever ancestors if they were able to position themselves in such a way to remain Orthodox and still live the way they did.

I gave you simpler answer, a lot of men were mercenaries and their value on horseback was absolutely crucial. A lot of these Albanian families that ruled patchwork of Kosovo had very primitive troops, and they fought each other (other Albanian feudal lords), if they would align against our family, we would through support to a rival family and that would be it.

But times were only tough us on 1800s supposedly, prior to this, the area was vastly different in makeup. Ottoman authorities were always locals who run the show, and these locals were responsible for raising armies and sending them to Ottomans. During 1800s a lot of my family fled to Serbia to assist in on the revolutions and we came back down later with the conquests. Our horse raising ended sometime with my grandfather. He rode horses in WW2, however my father never learned properly. I just rode a horse once when I was very small, obviously no military training from it.

[kuqezi]

I gave you simpler answer, a lot of men were mercenaries and their value on horseback was absolutely crucial. A lot of these Albanian families that ruled patchwork of Kosovo had very primitive troops, and they fought each other (other Albanian feudal lords), if they would align against our family, we would through support to a rival family and that would be it.

But times were only tough us on 1800s supposedly, prior to this, the area was vastly different in makeup. Ottoman authorities were always locals who run the show, and these locals were responsible for raising armies and sending them to Ottomans. During 1800s a lot of my family fled to Serbia to assist in on the revolutions and we came back down later with the conquests. Our horse raising ended sometime with my grandfather. He rode horses in WW2, however my father never learned properly. I just rode a horse once when I was very small, obviously no military training from it.

Ok that is possible. You just made it sound like you guys lived independently from the Ottomans. You guys paid tribute as mercenaries.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Ok that is possible. You just made it sound like you guys lived independently from the Ottomans. You guys paid tribute as mercenaries.

No, not all of this did for sure. However some wanting better life gradually did. Remember my story of the guy who married a Muslim woman? This was all tied to him being a mercenary.

It was this balance that allowed us from being completely being crushed, the difficulty of doing so, and on top of this wings of the family gradually becoming the Ottomans. The stubbornest of the family however remained.

[kuqezi]

No, not all of this did for sure. However some wanting better life gradually did. Remember my story of the guy who married a Muslim woman? This was all tied to him being a mercenary.

It was this balance that allowed us from being completely being crushed, the difficulty of doing so, and on top of this wings of the family gradually becoming the Ottomans. The stubbornest of the family however remained.

Basically you guys had something to offer the Muslims which is why you guys lasted so many centuries. Most Serbs survived in Kosovo by being complete bitches and living in compact areas enjoying the whorish protection of their church. Living a martial lifestyle and being a Serb didn't go hand in hand in Kosovo unless your putting out in someway or the other.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Basically you guys had something to offer the Muslims which is why you guys lasted so many centuries. Most Serbs survived in Kosovo by being complete bitches and living in compact areas enjoying the whorish protection of their church. Living a martial lifestyle and being a Serb didn't go hand in hand in Kosovo unless your putting out in someway or the other.

Only Serbs survived in Kosovo due to our stubborn nature. You won't find an Albanian surviving in surrounded by all Serbs, even in the case of Nish/Toplica you all fled to Kosovo. But in my area as I explained to you, there were few Albanians until 1800s and this was partly responsible due to what happened in Nish/Toplica.

[kuqezi]

Didn't have much to do with stubbornness. The least stubborn and warlike south slavs, the Bulgarians, survived in the closest proximity with the Turks. It had to due with accepting the status of a serf which in the Serbs case the average Serb serf had his lot improved with the coming of the Ottomans who made life easier on them than their former Serb lords did. No Albanian would want to live in surrounded by Serbs unless he is their lord. For Albanians honorable way of life was most important, religion not at all since we never had it ingrained in us. Only when religion became a tool of personal power did any Albanians take it up with any rigor.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Didn't have much to do with stubbornness. The least stubborn and warlike south slavs, the Bulgarians, survived in the closest proximity with the Turks. It had to due with accepting the status of a serf which in the Serbs case the average Serb serf had his lot improved with the coming of the Ottomans who made life easier on them than their former Serb lords did. No Albanian would want to live in surrounded by Serbs unless he is their lord. For Albanians honorable way of life was most important, religion not at all since we never had it ingrained in us. Only when religion became a tool of personal power did any Albanians take it up with any rigor.

Let's be honest, without Turks there would be no Albanians in Kosovo today, or very few. You were brought there to be security guards and petty feudal lords. Left to your own devices, you would not have the strength to beat the Serbs and enter the territory. And as we can see from Balkan War 1, Serbs have more than enough strength to do that to you.

The Serbs who were caught in Kosovo were given pressure to move. Some to Montenegro, some to Austrian and Hungarian kingdoms to act as border guards and highwayman. And in 1800s to Serbia itself, since it was independent. For the most part many Serbs did giving great pressure on Serbs who remained. Even the Obilic farmers are more stubborn than you can imagine, they proceed to try to continue their lifestyle despite all people badgering them. This is proven again in North Kosovo/North Mitrovica where Serbs resist despite tremendous pressure from Serbia and lower Kosovo along with NATO not to.

Albanians fled Nish/Toplica because Serbs applied pressure to them to leave. Albanians did the same in Kosovo to Serbs, but Serbs left in lower numbers.

[kuqezi]

Your version doesn't add up. There can't be more feudal lords and security guards than there are serfs, doesn't make sense.

Most Albanians were rural villagers, not lords or local police. Kosovo was the natural outlet for excess population from the northern Gheg highlands, as it was even for many highland Serbs. If you read Coon you will learn some more factors than you will read in history books dealing with Serb migrations and the Austrians. Highlander life promoted either people to be killed or to emigrate as resources where very scarce. Kosovo wasn't a refuge area it was a place highlanders could go and get their own piece of land and hold their own. Tribal ties facilitated a lot of this and most Albs leap frogged from multiple villages in Kosovo before they reached their final destination.

The real pressured class where the Catholics. Both Muslim and Orthodox were protected classes.

A major Serb settlement near Pej, Gorazhdec or Gorazhedevac was once on the verge of being wiped out/expelled by an Albanian lord. And we Albs say that for one fuck of the Beg we have left the Serbs of Gorazhdec. That is because he was about to wipe them out but they appeased him with their finest maiden.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Your version doesn't add up. There can't be more feudal lords and security guards than there are serfs, doesn't make sense.

Most Albanians were rural villagers, not lords or local police. Kosovo was the natural outlet for excess population from the northern Gheg highlands, as it was even for many highland Serbs. If you read Coon you will learn some more factors than you will read in history books dealing with Serb migrations and the Austrians. Highlander life promoted either people to be killed or to emigrate as resources where very scarce. Kosovo wasn't a refuge area it was a place highlanders could go and get their own piece of land and hold their own. Tribal ties facilitated a lot of this and most Albs leap frogged from multiple villages in Kosovo before they reached their final destination.

The real pressured class where the Catholics. Both Muslim and Orthodox were protected classes.

A major Serb settlement near Pej, Gorazhdec or Gorazhedevac was once on the verge of being wiped out/expelled by an Albanian lord. And we Albs say that for one fuck of the Beg we have left the Serbs of Gorazhdec. That is because he was about to wipe them out but they appeased him with their finest maiden.

There is nothing to learn, you wouldn't exist in Kosovo territory now if it wasn't for Turks. It's as simple as that. This is why you're Muslim, it facilitated you coming down from the mountains and getting lands from the Ottomans. It's really the same principle that happened when Serbian government offered land to all Serbs who wanted to settled back in the 1920s. Only difference there is that Serbians actually acquired Kosovo back from the Turks (and the Albanian security guards and militias who defended it alongside Ottoman army) whereas Albanians didn't acquire Kosovo, Ottomans did that.

[kuqezi]

There is nothing to learn, you wouldn't exist in Kosovo territory now if it wasn't for Turks. It's as simple as that. This is why you're Muslim, it facilitated you coming down from the mountains and getting lands from the Ottomans. It's really the same principle that happened when Serbian government offered land to all Serbs who wanted to settled back in the 1920s. Only difference there is that Serbians actually acquired Kosovo back from the Turks (and the Albanian security guards and militias who defended it alongside Ottoman army) whereas Albanians didn't acquire Kosovo, Ottomans did that.

Go tell that to your mother's family that are from Montenegro.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Go tell that to your mother's family that are from Montenegro.

My mother's family moved from Plav to elsewhere in Kosovo in the beginning of the 15th century (1400s) when Kosovo was still Serbian. In general I don't see what Montenegrins have to do with this. They were pushed to the mountains from Metohija by the Turks, or from Bosnia to Herzegovina also by the Turks. They went to the mountains for sanctuary and so they could continue to live their lifestyles by keeping their religion.

Albanians on other hand switched their religions so Ottoman Turks would grant them land ownership rights. It's funny to me that both Albanians and Bosniaks like to play this, we were rulers and Serbians 'Serfs' when you were nothing but middlemen for a great empire. It was the Serbs who resisted, and it was our resistance that got us an independent state right away, or at least well before you guys. It was this independent state that allowed us to mature, and be able to conquer you guys without much pause. And then Albanian fate was never in how good you were at fighting, it didn't matter, because we won so quickly, but rather whether some greater power would intervene on your behalf. During the first balkan war, Italy and Austria-Hungary intervened on your behalf due to hatred for Serbs. During WW1 it was America. During WW2 it was a mixture of Germans and Italians. During 1999, it was NATO.

Even today, in Kosovo, you can find a lot of loyalty of the Albanians to Turks.

[kuqezi]

My mother's family moved from Plav to elsewhere in Kosovo in the beginning of the 15th century (1400s) when Kosovo was still Serbian. In general I don't see what Montenegrins have to do with this. They were pushed to the mountains from Metohija by the Turks, or from Bosnia to Herzegovina also by the Turks. They went to the mountains for sanctuary and so they could continue to live their lifestyles by keeping their religion.

Albanians on other hand switched their religions so Ottoman Turks would grant them land ownership rights. It's funny to me that both Albanians and Bosniaks like to play this, we were rulers and Serbians 'Serfs' when you were nothing but middlemen for a great empire. It was the Serbs who resisted, and it was our resistance that got us an independent state right away, or at least well before you guys. It was this independent state that allowed us to mature, and be able to conquer you guys without much pause. And then Albanian fate was never in how good you were at fighting, it didn't matter, because we won so quickly, but rather whether some greater power would intervene on your behalf. During the first balkan war, Italy and Austria-Hungary intervened on your behalf due to hatred for Serbs. During WW1 it was America. During WW2 it was a mixture of Germans and Italians. During 1999, it was NATO.

Even today, in Kosovo, you can find a lot of loyalty of the Albanians to Turks.

Many Montenegrins also found their way to Kosovo during Ottoman times.

Most Albs were rural and didn't have anything to do with Ottoman authority. Also they were not placed on their land. They got it themselves. Turkophile Albanians were city dwellers. Rural Albanians only had loyalty to their family/clan. Where they were strongest like in Dukagjin/Drenica they would have Bajraktars and such and so they could leverage their collective power with the Turks.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Many Montenegrins also found their way to Kosovo during Ottoman times.

Most Albs were rural and didn't have anything to do with Ottoman authority. Also they were not placed on their land. They got it themselves. Turkophile Albanians were city dwellers. Rural Albanians only had loyalty to their family/clan. Where they were strongest like in Dukagjin/Drenica they would have Bajraktars and such and so they could leverage their collective power with the Turks.

No they got it from Ottomans. Ottomans were notorious for re-arranging people. And wanted Kosovo to stay populated because there was money there obviously.

Several big historical events happened in Kosovo. One was when the Holy Roman Empire decided to get lands from the Ottomans, it solicited Charnojevic, to instigate a rebellion in Kosovo (he was the Patriarch of Pec) and he did. When the Holy Roman Empire got what it wanted, it offered Charnojevic and his Serbs to settle in Vojvodina and military frontier of Croatia. The Serbs there would have autonomy in exchange for living like military families. He accepted since when the Turk would return there would be reprisals, and him and about 30,000 families left. When the Turks returned, they began a policy of reprisal, and another wave of Serbs left. Maybe in total, at least 100,000 Serbs if not 200 or 300,000 Serbs. Kosovo was obviously depopulated in many areas, and Ottomans turned to mountains of Albania and offered the shepherds there land provided they convert to Islam. This happened basically in the early 1700s.

The second was the formation of an independent Serbia. After this, Serbs began trickling north, to freedom, gradually one by one. Depleting Kosovo even more. This came to a brutal head when the independent Serbian state managed to take Nish/Toplica from the Ottomans, the first to be punished were Albanian middle men who fled deeper into Kosovo. An estimated 100,000 of them fled and were settled all round by the Turks. These Albanians brought with them an especial hatred for everything Serbian and began reprisals against the Serbian population like never seen before since the uprising by Charnojevic. There was also additional pressure at this stage with many Christian uprisings elsewhere, in Bosnia, Herzegovina, Montenegro, Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia. This started a Christian-Muslim population exchange also deeply hurting Serbian position in Kosovo. This was 1800s, and by end of this, Serbs would be a meager 10-15% of the population. At the start of the 1800s, they were maybe 20-30% with other slavics in total being 50%.

Small hiccups was the first Balkan war up to WW2. Serbian colonization policy increased Serbs to between 30-40%, and Albanians between 60-70% (few non-Serb slavics assimilated into Serbian ethnos during this colonization). However, WW2 did a great part in reversing some of this as many 100,000 Serbs fled. After WW2, Tito came to power and did not allow those Serbs to return. The remanding Serbs gradually left to Serbia proper as employment opportunities and no discrimination, at this stage Serbs would fall back to 10-15%.

Then the 90s came, Miloshevic abolished autonomy, and even settled about 40,000 Croatian Serbs in Kosovo. During the war in 1999, about 1 million Albanians fled. For the first time in centuries, Kosovo was pretty much exclusively Serbian. However, when Miloshevic signed with NATO, and Serbian troops pulled out, most of those 1 million Albanians returned. Serbs began concentrating in north Mitrovica and north Kosovo for protection and so they can run the border between Serbia and Kosovo. Gradually numbers begin to dwindle as Serbs give up and head to Serbia.

But still Serb foothold is there, we definitely fought for our Kosovo, more than Albanians did for their Nish/Toplica where you basically abandoned it at moments notice. If NATO were for example to give up in 1999, Kosovo now would be 90+% Serbian. Your fate was in the hands of NATO.

[kuqezi]

No they got it from Ottomans. Ottomans were notorious for re-arranging people. And wanted Kosovo to stay populated because there was money there obviously.

Several big historical events happened in Kosovo. One was when the Holy Roman Empire decided to get lands from the Ottomans, it solicited Charnojevic, to instigate a rebellion in Kosovo (he was the Patriarch of Pec) and he did. When the Holy Roman Empire got what it wanted, it offered Charnojevic and his Serbs to settle in Vojvodina and military frontier of Croatia. The Serbs there would have autonomy in exchange for living like military families. He accepted since when the Turk would return there would be reprisals, and him and about 30,000 families left. When the Turks returned, they began a policy of reprisal, and another wave of Serbs left. Maybe in total, at least 100,000 Serbs if not 200 or 300,000 Serbs. Kosovo was obviously depopulated in many areas, and Ottomans turned to mountains of Albania and offered the shepherds there land provided they convert to Islam. This happened basically in the early 1700s.

The second was the formation of an independent Serbia. After this, Serbs began trickling north, to freedom, gradually one by one. Depleting Kosovo even more. This came to a brutal head when the independent Serbian state managed to take Nish/Toplica from the Ottomans, the first to be punished were Albanian middle men who fled deeper into Kosovo. An estimated 100,000 of them fled and were settled all round by the Turks. These Albanians brought with them an especial hatred for everything Serbian and began reprisals against the Serbian population like never seen before since the uprising by Charnojevic. There was also additional pressure at this stage with many Christian uprisings elsewhere, in Bosnia, Herzegovina, Montenegro, Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia. This started a Christian-Muslim population exchange also deeply hurting Serbian position in Kosovo. This was 1800s, and by end of this, Serbs would be a meager 10-15% of the population. At the start of the 1800s, they were maybe 20-30% with other slavics in total being 50%.

Small hiccups was the first Balkan war up to WW2. Serbian colonization policy increased Serbs to between 30-40%, and Albanians between 60-70% (few non-Serb slavics assimilated into Serbian ethnos during this colonization). However, WW2 did a great part in reversing some of this as many 100,000 Serbs fled. After WW2, Tito came to power and did not allow those Serbs to return. The remanding Serbs gradually left to Serbia proper as employment opportunities and no discrimination, at this stage Serbs would fall back to 10-15%.

Then the 90s came, Miloshevic abolished autonomy, and even settled about 40,000 Croatian Serbs in Kosovo. During the war in 1999, about 1 million Albanians fled. For the first time in centuries, Kosovo was pretty much exclusively Serbian. However, when Miloshevic signed with NATO, and Serbian troops pulled out, most of those 1 million Albanians returned. Serbs began concentrating in north Mitrovica and north Kosovo for protection and so they can run the border between Serbia and Kosovo. Gradually numbers begin to dwindle as Serbs give up and head to Serbia.

But still Serb foothold is there, we definitely fought for our Kosovo, more than Albanians did for their Nish/Toplica where you basically abandoned it at moments notice. If NATO were for example to give up in 1999, Kosovo now would be 90+% Serbian. Your fate was in the hands of NATO.

Most Albanians came as Catholics and many even stayed Catholic to the next Generation and still others all the way till today. That whole muslim Albanian settlement by Ottomans is pure Serbian propaganda. The fact that there are Catholics in Kosovo disproves that. As to the rest of your post its out side the scope of our debate so I'm not gonna debate you were you are off on all the small points. It would suffice for me to say that things are not all black and white with Serbs being anti Ottoman and Albanians pro, far from it.

One more fact to sum things up. For the Ottomans, Christians pay more tax than muslim Albanian trouble making clansmen. Albanians became Muslim in order to use the system to their advantage, Ottomans didn't gain much from us infact they only got a bunch of headaches, we screwed them in that deal.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Most Albanians came as Catholics and many even stayed Catholic to the next Generation and still others all the way till today. That whole muslim Albanian settlement by Ottomans is pure Serbian propaganda. The fact that there are Catholics in Kosovo disproves that. As to the rest of your post its out side the scope of our debate so I'm not gonna debate you were you are off on all the small points. It would suffice for me to say that things are not all black and white with Serbs being anti Ottoman and Albanians pro, far from it.

One more fact to sum things up. For the Ottomans, Christians pay more tax than muslim Albanian trouble making clansmen. Albanians became Muslim in order to use the system to their advantage, Ottomans didn't gain much from us infact they only got a bunch of headaches, we screwed them in that deal.

It doesn't disprove anything I say. 95% of Kosovo Albanians are Muslims. The exception proves the rule here ;)

All your heroes from Kosovo during Ottoman times were in the service of Turks at one point or the other. Most notable was Isa Boletini, who was a Bey and made many trips to Istanbul. He rebelled only when pressured by Serbs to rebel and then he was very reluctant.

The fact of the matter is when Serbs invaded Kosovo in 1912, it was Albanians fighting side by side Turks. Even to this Turkey is one of your greatest supporters, Kosovo is an example. Turkey played a prominent role in getting Kosovo its independence from Serbia. Thaci even said gushed over some Turk PM, and in Kosovo there are plenty of evidence of Turk-Albanian joint diplomacy. Turkey prefers you to Serbs and there is a reason for this. Out of all Balkanites, Turks dislike Serbs the most.

[Stefan_Dusan]

One other point, Catholic Albanians are the legacy of pre-1700s Kosovo. The Albanians who came down in the 1700s and later were overwhelming Muslim. It's funny to note that those Catholic Albanians who fled Turkish reprisals fled with Serbs. They didn't go back to northern Albania. There are now some villages in Vojvodina that are there legacy but they consider themselves Croats, because they intermarried with Slavs but kept their Catholic faith.

[kuqezi]

It doesn't disprove anything I say. 95% of Kosovo Albanians are Muslims. The exception proves the rule here ;)

All your heroes from Kosovo during Ottoman times were in the service of Turks at one point or the other. Most notable was Isa Boletini, who was a Bey and made many trips to Istanbul. He rebelled only when pressured by Serbs to rebel and then he was very reluctant.

The fact of the matter is when Serbs invaded Kosovo in 1912, it was Albanians fighting side by side Turks. Even to this Turkey is one of your greatest supporters, Kosovo is an example. Turkey played a prominent role in getting Kosovo its independence from Serbia. Thaci even said gushed over some Turk PM, and in Kosovo there are plenty of evidence of Turk-Albanian joint diplomacy. Turkey prefers you to Serbs and there is a reason for this. Out of all Balkanites, Turks dislike Serbs the most.

^Verbal diarrhea right there.

Your routine is getting tired man. I told you Turkophile Albs in Kosovo are city dwellers that had links with their civilization. Real Albs very much dislike Turks. Kosovo relations with Turkey today, just like in the past, is basically both sides milking the other for all they are worth. I for one dislike Turks as a group and usually as individuals too more than any other Balkan group. Any commonalities we have with them today are from the backwardness that they left us is no more and usually less than our Balkan neighbors. Torlak Serbs, Macedonians, and obviously Greeks are all more Turk-like than us in culture.

Turks have always hated us more than Turks, that is very evident. They complain of Arnauts (hard headed) as savage to this day and use the word as an insult and more than once has a Sultan ordered for our complete extermination. Serbs were very cushy with them by comparison, basically bedfellows with the church.

[Stefan_Dusan]

^Verbal diarrhea right there.

Your routine is getting tired man. I told you Turkophile Albs in Kosovo are city dwellers that had links with their civilization. Real Albs very much dislike Turks. Kosovo relations with Turkey today is basically both sides milking the other for all they are worth. I for one dislike Turks as a group and usually as individuals too more than any other Balkan group. Any commonalities we have with them today are from the backwardness that they left us is no more and usually less than our Balkan neighbors. Torlak Serbs, Macedonians, and obviously Greeks are all more Turk-like than us in culture.

You can't deny what I say. Anyways the verbal diarrhea is yours, this is a thread about my haplogroup. Not you trying to prove to me 100x that Albanians were fierce and independent. You have to understand I don't believe it because I grew up around you. So just drop this, let this thread fall back to my haplogroup and not this bullshit over again.

I suggest you go to Albanian thread, and repeat this. There you will get a bunch of people saying 'Yes' and patting you on the back.

[Skerdilaid]

One other point, Catholic Albanians are the legacy of pre-1700s Kosovo. The Albanians who came down in the 1700s and later were overwhelming Muslim. It's funny to note that those Catholic Albanians who fled Turkish reprisals fled with Serbs. They didn't go back to northern Albania. There are now some villages in Vojvodina that are there legacy but they consider themselves Croats, because they intermarried with Slavs but kept their Catholic faith.

The Albanian that are in Vojvodina are Kelmendi Clan, and they migrated after their wars with Ottomans in 1700s. I know you Serbs claim this as the "Great Migration", but in fact it was mostly Albanains that migrated with the Archbishop of Peja, and to this day they remain Catholic.

So this has nothing to do with Albanian in Kosova and their religion. Most Albanian that migrated to Kosova actually came as Catholics, and not as Muslims, they only adopted Muslim names later on.

[Stefan_Dusan]

The Albanian that are in Vojvodina are Kelmendi Clan, and they migrated after their wars with Ottomans in 1700s. I know you Serbs claim this as the "Great Migration", but in fact it was mostly Albanains that migrated with the Archbishop of Peja, and to this day they remain Catholic.

So this has nothing to do with Albanian in Kosova and their religion. Most Albanian that migrated to Kosova actually came as Catholics, and not as Muslims, they only adopted Muslim names later on.

lol not you and your crack pot theories xD

The great migration is recorded, and unfortunately for you its not Serbian historians doing the recording but Austrian and Hungarian ones as those were the lands appropriated.

The Albanians and Catholics in general, are drop in the bucket and the few families are recorded including the villages they settled.

If you want to discuss crackpot theories take them off my thread and go to Albanian thread ;)

[Skerdilaid]

lol not you and your crack pot theories xD

The great migration is recorded, and unfortunately for you its not Serbian historians doing the recording but Austrian and Hungarian ones as those were the lands appropriated.

The Albanians and Catholics in general, are drop in the bucket and the few families are recorded including the villages they settled.

If you want to discuss crackpot theories take them off my thread and go to Albanian thread ;)

You are spewing bullshit that Serb historians preach, they can only pass in toilets! Go read some real history before you debate such topics.

[Stefan_Dusan]

You are spewing bullshit that Serb historians preach, they can only pass in toilets! Go read some real history before you debate such topics.

I do remember when you spread your intelligence to the Hungarian members they also laughed at you. Like I said, you have to fight Hungarian and Austrian demographers.

[kuqezi]

You can't deny what I say. Anyways the verbal diarrhea is yours, this is a thread about my haplogroup. Not you trying to prove to me 100x that Albanians were fierce and independent. You have to understand I don't believe it because I grew up around you. So just drop this, let this thread fall back to my haplogroup and not this bullshit over again.

I suggest you go to Albanian thread, and repeat this. There you will get a bunch of people saying 'Yes' and patting you on the back.

We were talking about your family and their status and got off topic from there with your denial of their Ottoman connections with their status. And your interactions in Kosovo with Albanians which was mainly going to the store to by bread from them and playing with their kids in the neighborhood doesn't have much to do with our conversation.

[Stefan_Dusan]

We were talking about your family and their status and got off topic from there with your denial of their Ottoman connections with their status. And your interactions in Kosovo with Albanians which was mainly going to the store to by bread from them and playing with their kids in the neighborhood doesn't have much to do with our conversation.

You keep forgetting I was in a war my friend. I was just going to type a long post with some stories but I decided against it. In general I prefer to only talk with Skerdi here since he was also in war. I don't feel you can understand me.

[kuqezi]

You were a little shit-stained kid, not a fighter. My family fought to, and in Koshare so that makes me as qualified as you if not more to talk about the war. Anyways I much prefer reading your real anecdotes than debating you about history in which you have taken the mainstream Serbian line.

[Stefan_Dusan]

My family fought to, and in Koshare so that makes me as qualified as you if not more to talk about the war.

lol? How?

[kuqezi]

lol? How?

Both mine and your family fought.. Mine in a major battle. You were a little kid that had to be protected and didn't even fully comprehend what was happening at the time. Same thing as me when I was watching the news in America.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Both mine and your family fought.. Mine in a major battle. You were a little kid that had to be protected and didn't even fully comprehend what was happening at the time. Same thing as me when I was watching the news in America.

Look here, because all my immediate family was in Kosovo, all my male relatives fought including my father. In Koshare, as paramilitries, as police, as special forces, as militias. I even shared a family story from Koshare on this forum but I don't feel like sharing it with you now since you're relative was some distant cousin whereas mine, I grew up with played.

[kuqezi]

Look here, because all my immediate family was in Kosovo, all my male relatives fought including my father. In Koshare, as paramilitries, as police, as special forces, as militias. I even shared a family story from Koshare on this forum but I don't feel like sharing it with you now since you're relative was some distant cousin whereas mine, I grew up with played.

In Koshare were two of my father's brothers. The point is we both learned about the war through talking to family and other ways after we were old enough to understand. I have cousins that saw bad shit there as kids and today they know jack shit about the war because they don't give a shit.

[bersantselmani]

Hi to all
I am Bersant Selmani albanian from Prishtina Kosove
Haplogroup I2C
Morina Tribe from Junik, coming from Mirdita Albania

[Drawing-slim]

Hi to all
I am Bersant Selmani albanian from Prishtina Kosove
Haplogroup I2C
Morina Tribe from Junik, coming from Mirdita Albania
Is stefan dusan in your relaitve list by any chance? I think he goes with same name on 23andme.

[LerinCovek]

Old thread here, but resurrecting it.

I'm I2c (I-L596). I assume I'm posting in the correct thread?

Ancestry is from Florina, Greece. Balkan mountain folk. We can trace the family as far back as the 1820s in that region, and prior to that there is no records, but I suspect the paternal line has been there for several centuries and at least to the 15th Century.

It appears that I have Slavic ancestry, Macedonian-Slavic, Aegean Macedonian, Greek Slavophone, call it what you like.

Although most relatives that stayed in that region are mainly Hellenized now.

[Vojnik]

Old thread here, but resurrecting it.

I'm I2c (I-L596). I assume I'm posting in the correct thread?

Ancestry is from Florina, Greece. Balkan mountain folk. We can trace the family as far back as the 1820s in that region, and prior to that there is no records, but I suspect the paternal line has been there for several centuries and at least to the 15th Century.

It appears that I have Slavic ancestry, Macedonian-Slavic, Aegean Macedonian, Greek Slavophone, call it what you like.

Although most relatives that stayed in that region are mainly Hellenized now.

You have a similar story to myself. I can trace my paternal side within the Lerin region to that time too.

I suggest you make your own thread.