Study : Spaniards not darker than other europeans

[Ibericus]

Study says :

"Southern Europeans (measures taken from Spaniards) show a skin pigmentation in parts of the body not exposed to the sun similar to that of Northern Europeans and, in some cases, even lighter."
http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/chem...color_2000.pdf

Also :
"All samples are composed of indigenous populations, and readings are taken on areas of the body not exposed to the sun. Higher values indicate lighter skin, and lower values darker skin."

Country and population or area

Observed reflectance at 685 nm

EUROPE

Netherlands
67•37
Germany (Mainz)
66•90
United Kingdom (Northern)
66•10
Spain (Basques)
65•70
United Kingdom (Wales) 65•00
Ireland (Rossmore)
64•75
Spain (Leon)
64•66
Belgium
63•14
United Kingdom (London) 62•30

WEST ASIA

Iraq/Syria (Kurds)
61•12
Turkey
59•15
Israel
58•20
Lebanon
58•20
Jordan
53•00
Saudi Arabia
52•50

NORTH AFRICA

Algeria (Aures)
58•05
Tunisia
56•30
Morrocco
54•85
Libya (Tripoli)
54•40
Libya (Fezzan) 44•00

SOUTH ASIA

India (Northern)
53•26
Pakistan
52•30
India (Southern)
46•70

EAST ASIA

China (Southern)
59•17
Vietnam
55•90
Japan (Northern)
54•90
Philippines (Manila)
54•10
Cambodia
54•00
Japan (Southwest)
53•55
Nepal (Eastern)
50•42

AUSTRO-MELANESIA

Papua New Guinea
35•30
Australia (Darwin)
19•30

AMERICAS

Greenland (Southern)
55•70
Peru (Nunoa)
47•70
Peru (Maranon)
43•05

SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA

South Africa (Hottentot)
46•80
Botswana (San)
42•40
Zaire
33•20
Kenya
32•40
Ethiopia
31•70
Tanzania (Sandewe)
28•90
Namibia
25•55
Cameroon (Fali)
21•50
Mozambique (Chopi)
19•45

[Nina Jablonski and George Chaplin. "The Evolution of Human Skin Coloration". J Hum Evol, 2000; pp. 74-75]
http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/chem...color_2000.pdf

[Tabiti]

"Southern Europeans (measures taken from Spaniards) show a skin pigmentation in parts of the body not exposed to the sun similar to that of Northern Europeans and, in some cases, even lighter."
Yes, but the tendency to tan easily and heavily and keep that tan even in winter is "Southern trait". To prove that statement they must investigate skins of Southern Europeans, who have been living in Northern countries for years. Even without tan the skin tone differs - Northern Europeans appear to be more pinkish, while more Southern untanned ones have "wax" skin (personal observations).

[Amapola]

Oh.. no...
Not that pls, Iberia!
You don't know what you are doing to yourself and "myself" by posting such things :D

As I said in the other forum, I don't think we are lighter than Northern Europeans, it's obvious... but It's also true that many Southern Europeans (when sun-unexposed) have a lighter skin than many would like to believe, not being very different from them. :mmmm:

I am touching wood for that thread not to attract John here :lol00002:

[Amapola]

Yes, but the tendency to tan easily and heavily and keep that tan even in winter is "Southern trait". To prove that statement they must investigate skins of Southern Europeans, who have been living in Northern countries for years. Even without tan the skin tone differs - Northern Europeans appear to be more pinkish, while more Southern untanned ones have "wax" skin (personal observations).
Investigate skins of Southern Europeans that live in the North o Europe or in the north of the peninsula or simple bodily parts that are rarely sun-exposed, which I think the study already took into consideration.

And who cares!? spending so many hours under the sun we should have a type of skin that tans well for practical reasons, so the difference of skin colour of Southerners between different seasons can be astonishing.

[Tabiti]

but It's also true that many Southern Europeans (when sun-unexposed) have a lighter skin than many would like to believe, not being very different from them.
I just call that color "depigmented". Kind of my case, for example. But in any case skins in Northern and Southern Europe are different, nothing surprising.
I don't know why many Southern Europeans on such boards appear to be somehow ashamed of their ability to tan easily. It's a normal body reaction, kind of vital protection. It's linked with environment, not any non-European ancestry as some like to claim.

[Monolith]

Is it really that important to you?

[Ibericus]

No, it's not important for me, it is just a Study :coffee: that kinda breaks the stereotype of spaniards being darker. I've lived in France, and I don't see any difference between spaniards and French..

[Amapola]

unexposed skin vs unexposed skin, probably you are right, not a big significant difference; other than that, Spaniards are darker than most French.

[Murphy]

that kinda breaks the stereotype of spaniards being darker.

You have dashed my dreams of finding an exotic and dark Morish princess now, my friend :(!

Regards,
The Papist.

[Stefan]

Pigmentation is an individual trait that has different prevalences in different countries based on both Environmental and Genetic factors(which in the long term are environmental). There are some Northern Europeans darker than some Southern Europeans, though the probability of you finding one is much lower than that of finding a darker Southern European. All you really can do is generalize as there are many factors.

[Matritensis]

I don't know,but I'm definitely darker than 99% of Finns! :p
Or maybe it's only that Finns are lighter than most Europeans(which is true...at least when you take into account the colour of the hair)

[Comte Arnau]

I've been mentioning that study for a long time now, mainly because it's the only serious study I've read about pigmentation, away from the simplistic personal observations of many authors. It is a real pity that only samples from northern Spain were taken, and that there are no samples from other Southern countries.

And it was also wise to do it in parts that are less exposed to the sun. The difference of tone between winter and summer is quite evident in the south, but I agree with Tabiti that, even if the unexposed skin may be light both in the north and the south, most in the north have a pink shade while in the south it is rather a wax shade.

[Grumpy Cat]

They needed a study to figure this out?

All they have to do is look.

[Wulfhere]

It honestly doesn't matter - no amount of scientific "proof" will remove the fact that Spaniards look greasy and swarthy.

[Beorn]

Sorry Wulfhere, but for the love of all that is English can you please stop saying this shit?

[poiuytrewq0987]

It honestly doesn't matter - no amount of scientific "proof" will remove the fact that Spaniards look greasy and swarthy.

Go fuck off.

[Wulfhere]

Sorry Wulfhere, but for the love of all that is English can you please stop saying this shit?

Sometimes the truth hurts.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Sometimes the truth hurts.

Not quite, there are plenty of light-skinned, haired, eyed Spaniards just as there are plenty of dark-looking Spaniards. You're wrong to generalize them.

[Wulfhere]

Not quite, there are plenty of light-skinned, haired, eyed Spaniards just as there are plenty of dark-looking Spaniards. You're wrong to generalize them.

I'm not just talking about the skin tone, but the general look of them. Would you let your daughter marry a negro? Well I wouldn't let mine marry a Spaniard or a southern European of any sort.

[Beorn]

Sometimes the truth hurts.

When it is the truth, aye, but this is just xenobhobic nonsense which does more damage to the flag you fly than the person.

If Spaniards are greasy and swarthy then count me in as one.

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww185/BeornWulfWer/111.jpg?t=1266626537

[Wulfhere]

When it is the truth, aye, but this is just xenobhobic nonsense which does more damage to the flag you fly than the person.

If Spaniards are greasy and swarthy then count me in as one.

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww185/BeornWulfWer/111.jpg?t=1266626537

Okay, as you wish, you can be one. Since you're from Wessex, and a therefore a Saxon, you're pretty swarthy anyway.

[Comte Arnau]

Would you let your daughter marry a negro? Well I wouldn't let mine marry a Spaniard or a southern European of any sort.

Logical. Bullfighters terrify John Bulls.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Okay, as you wish, you can be one. Since you're from Wessex, and a therefore a Saxon, you're pretty swarthy anyway.

Wulfhere = Hitler 2.0

Oh my god, did you see that black-haired Briton?? Go get him and lynch that motherfucker!

[Beorn]

Okay, as you wish, you can be one. Since you're from Wessex, and a therefore a Saxon, you're pretty swarthy anyway.

I couldn't care less for whether I am Anglo-Saxon, Celt, Briton, Viking, etc...

I am English.


Logical. Bullfighters terrify John Bulls.

Don't lower yourself to it. :)

[Falkata]

I'm not just talking about the skin tone, but the general look of them. Would you let your daughter marry a negro? Well I wouldn't let mine marry a Spaniard or a southern European of any sort.

Do you have a daughter? I´m surprised ...

[poiuytrewq0987]

Do you have a daughter? I´m surprised ...

Probably procreated with his sister since she wasn't a virgin and didn't wanna break the virginity of her daughters of fry.

[Grumpy Cat]

Do you have a daughter? I´m surprised ...

LOL.

It begs to be asked: does she do deep knee bends?

[Kadu]

Do you have a daughter? I´m surprised ...



Daughter as in Daughters of Frya certainly.

[Henry]

http://rosalieee.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/skincolormap.jpg

[Guapo]

So eskimos and swedes have the same pigmentation.

[Henry]

So eskimos and swedes have the same pigmentation.

Dont you know how to read a map? The light blue shade is "no data". Most of Sweden is in white

[Guapo]

Don't you know where swedes and eskimos live? eskimos live in the white part too.

[Henry]

Don't you know where swedes and eskimos live? eskimos live in the white part too.

Why are you trying to find faults with the map? Is there something on there you dont like and thats why your trying to discredit it?

[Guapo]

Australia is not that dark. The majority are whites :mad:

[Falkata]

Henry, aren´t u an english native speaker? Then you can read in your map "Geographic distribution of enviromental factors influencing human skin"
It´s a map who reflect the hours of sun,basically. Just take a look at Australia...

[Henry]

Henry, aren´t u an english native speaker? Then you can read in your map "Geographic distribution of enviromental factors influencing human skin"
It´s a map who reflect the hours of sun,basically. Just take a look at Australia...

So what does that tell you about Spaniards? If Iberia has the most intense solar radiation in Europe wouldnt it make sense that thats where the darkest people in Europe would evolve to be in?

http://www.propertyinvesting.net/cgi-script/csNews/image_upload/specialreports_2edb.solar-map-europe.jpg

[Falkata]

So what does that tell you about Spaniards? If Iberia has the most intense solar radiation in Europe wouldnt it make sense that thats where the darkest people in Europe would evolve to be in?



No , it doesnt make sense.

[Henry]

No , it doesnt make sense.

Just look at the soloar radiation map i posted and realize what part of Europe is the darkest shaded and ask yourself is it just a coincidence

[SilverFish]

This map doesn't make any sense AT ALL. Take a look at the tydal subrace in Wales! They came from freaking Norway for God's sake and they still look brown.

[Falkata]

Just look at the soloar radiation map i posted and realize what part of Europe is the darkest shaded and ask yourself is it just a coincidence

We are not plants Henry, during thousands of years humans were moving and migrating. As you can see in your map, I´m from the less sunny place of Iberia, the northwest, and the difference with other sunnier places if we talk about unexposed skin, is probably minimal or unexistant. The same applies for any other country, there are always regions with better or worse weather and it doesnt mean that people are "whiter" than their fellow countrymen. Just check Australia again, or the Canary islands, those people should be blacks according with your way of thinking.
Anyway, following your logic I´m "whiter" than you. Napoli gets way more sunlight than Galicia, so next time try to not make an autowned ;)

[poiuytrewq0987]

Sunlight does not dictate genes, the only thing sunlight can do is tan humans and that requires humans to stay out for a long period. There are tons of Sicilians and Spaniards who are just fair-skinned as northerners such as Britons or Germans. Pink-tone skin may not be as common in southern areas of Europe but there's barely any difference between "pink-skinned" and regular white skin unless you're one of those Irish people.

[Comte Arnau]

Using a map about photovoltaic solar electricity potential as a proof of ethnic skintone. The oscar for originality goes to...

[Henry]

Using a map about photovoltaic solar electricity potential as a proof of ethnic skintone. The oscar for originality goes to...

What proof do you want? I used history and talked about the moors, jews and phoenicians in Iberia. I used science and talked about how Iberia has the most intense solar radiation in Europe. I used quotes from anthropologists who clearly said Iberians are the most mediterranean people in Europe. I used geography and talked about how mainland Iberia is isolated at the corner of southwestern Europe right next to North Africa. I used examples of famous Spaniards to show you how dark and mediterranean they are. (They werent cherrypicked either because I dont choose who becomes famous). If this was a court then this case would be won by me because theres more evidence in my favor than for your side

[Comte Arnau]

What proof do you want? I used history and talked about the moors, jews and phoenicians in Iberia. I used science and talked about how Iberia has the most intense solar radiation in Europe. I used quotes from anthropologists who clearly said Iberians are the most mediterranean people in Europe. I used geography and talked about how mainland Iberia is isolated at the corner of southwestern Europe right next to North Africa. I used examples of famous Spaniards to show you how dark and mediterranean they are. (They werent cherrypicked either because I dont choose who becomes famous). If this was a court then this case would be won by me because theres more evidence in my favor than for your side

It's not about quantity, but about quality. My only proof would be more valid than all of your "proofs" simply because of one thing: the study is about skintone, which is what the case in court was about. Not about Moors camping 800 years in the Pyrenees or the beaches in Spain being oh so sunny.

Apart from the fact that any of your proofs could be quickly invalidated by the worst lawyer in town.

[Henry]

It's not about quantity, but about quality. My only proof would be more valid than all of your "proofs" simply because of one thing: the study is about skintone, which is what the case in court was about. Not about Moors camping 800 years in the Pyrenees or the beaches in Spain being oh so sunny.

Apart from the fact that any of your proofs could be quickly invalidated by the worst lawyer in town.

No, you'd be charged with perjury and tampering with evidence

[Falkata]

Henry? You have some connection with him?

http://einsteinio.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/henry.jpg

[Henry]

No, this is similar to what i look like

http://seat42f.com/images/stories/tvshows/Journeyman/kevin-mckidd-journeyman.jpg

[Stefan]

Henry why do you care at all whether Iberians are dark? All of this posting about them, but why does it matter in "European Preservation"? If genetic relation says they are European, history says they are European, culture, religion, language says they are European, and racially they match with other Europeans then they are part of their nation within the historical unity of Europe. Being dark doesn't change that fact, especially when there is no correlation between skin pigmentation and racial purity or racial similarities. We are on a European Preservation board, not a "skin pigmentation lust" or " false racial purity" one. I feel I'm treading the same ground again, but with a different path, so I might as well just stop with this post.

P.S. Pigmentation doesn't make somebody European otherwise there are many of the Middle East who certainly fit in better than those who are "truly" closer from all perspectives including that of race, just because they have light skin, eyes or hair.

[Liffrea]

Lol I used to work with a girl whose folks came from the Punjab; she was “whiter” than most native Britons, certainly whiter than me.

[antonio]

What proof do you want? I used history and talked about the moors, jews and phoenicians in Iberia.

And what about Germanic and Celtic tribes that probably outnumbered (because they usually overcomed Mediterranean ones) them? Reasons to invade Iberian Peninsula along the centuries they have plenty: gold, silver, stain...better climate conditions than their homelands...Hispania it was one of the most desirable Roman Empire destinies to invade when the time of Gothics collapsing Empire. These are historical facts? What about the descendants of all these people? Vanished in the air? Not on my family and many other people that I know.

[Ibericus]

No, this is similar to what i look like

http://seat42f.com/images/stories/tvshows/Journeyman/kevin-mckidd-journeyman.jpg

No, You are a MESTIZO troll. The man in the photo is the guy you would like to be. You don't fool me.

[Ibericus]

http://rosalieee.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/skincolormap.jpg

This map is crap and it's not about skin pigmentation.
Spaniards are not darker than Italians or French

I can also show you another map, but anyways all this pigmentation maps suck:
http://wapedia.mobi/thumb/644714660/en/max/470/360/Unlabeled_Renatto_Luschan_Skin_color_map.png?forma t=jpg,png,gif

[Ibericus]

It honestly doesn't matter - no amount of scientific "proof" will remove the fact that Spaniards look greasy and swarthy.

Your ass is greasy idiot.

[Ibericus]

well, im gonna show spanish crowds, and compare the skin with other europens.

Spaniards :

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/2701/noticiasfotonoticia2743.jpg

http://estaticos04.marca.com/imagenes/2009/10/26/mas_deportes/rugby/1256499617_0.jpg

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/9108/berritxarrakportadaab5.jpg

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/500/271555/Soziedad+Alkoholika.jpg

http://www.futbolbalear.es/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/espa%C3%B1a-sub-17.jpg

http://ecodiario.eleconomista.es/imag/efe/2009/01/23/1864292w.jpg

http://www.llandecubel.com/fotoportada.jpg

http://www.noelshack.com/up/aac/kiko_kako_oscar_luis-877a74e881.jpg


http://trstrs.netfirms.com/34.jpg


http://trstrs.netfirms.com/23.jpg


http://trstrs.netfirms.com/51.jpg


http://trstrs.netfirms.com/59.jpg


Southern Spaniards (Andalusians ) :

http://blogs.diariosur.es/blogfiles/rugby_en_malaga/infantileslos2equipos.jpg


http://www.waterpolosevilla.com/fotos/fotos2007/Selec-andaluza-infantil2006-07-22.jpg


FRENCH :

http://www.gala.fr/var/gal/storage/images/media/images/actu/photos_officiel/l_equipe_de_france_de_rugby/343537-1-fre-FR/l_equipe_de_france_de_rugby_reference.jpg

[Henry]

Iberia, French and Italians in general are more nordic and germanic than Spaniards are, accept it already. It doesnt really matter by how much the point is they are.

[Stefan]

Iberia, French and Italians in general are more nordic and germanic than Spaniards are, accept it already. It doesnt really matter by how much the point is they are.

Germanic =/= Nordic. Nordic< Germanic. Italians and French =/= Nordic.

Nordic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countries


The Nordic countries make up a region in Northern Europe and the North Atlantic which consists of Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden (all of which use a Nordic Cross flag) and their associated territories which include the Faroe Islands, Greenland, Svalbard and Åland. Scandinavia is sometimes used as a synonym for the Nordic countries,[1] although within the Nordic countries the terms are considered distinct.

[Matritensis]

French and Italians in general are more nordic and germanic than Spaniards are

French and Italians are exactly as "Germanic" as Spaniards.That is,not Germanic at all.You know why? because "Germanic" is a linguistic term,that's why.Please go on with your lecture.

[Ibericus]

Iberia, French and Italians in general are more nordic and germanic than Spaniards are, accept it already. It doesnt really matter by how much the point is they are.

Idiot this thread was not about nordics. This thread was about skin pigmentation.

And, do you have any prove for your claims ?

Why are you so obsessed with Spaniards ? Yes, I know the answer. You are just another south american mestizo with inferiority complex. That is why you need to say you are "Pure White" and you show a photo of a man you dream you could be like and say he looks like you. How sad and pathetic you are.

[Henry]

Why is it that anytime this subject is discussed anywhere online its usually only Spaniards that say Spaniards arent any darker and more mediterranean than French and Italians but yet theres barely any non-spaniards that come in and defend Spaniards? Just look at the people in this thread. Falkata, Iberia, and now Matritensis. Why hasnt a non-Spaniard stepped in and said no your wrong theres not much of a difference?

[Freomæg]

No, this is similar to what i look like

http://seat42f.com/images/stories/tvshows/Journeyman/kevin-mckidd-journeyman.jpg

Oh, crap. I'm glad you showed us how you look. I almost talked down to you then, not realising that you're a member of the master-race. Forgive me :(.

Skin colour (and hair/eye colour for that matter) is merely one factor among many that makes someone ethnically 'this' or 'that'. For example, Middle-Easterners and Orientals may often have skin as light as a European but their bone structure, propensity for certain genetic traits (diseases, immunities etc), bloodline, culture, language and mindset all collide to establish their ethnic identity. The way I see it, a 5 foot tall dinaricised blonde German is not necessarily more nordic than a 7 foot tall, dark-featured Spaniard. Preservationists put a disproportionate amount of stock in pigmentation.

[Pallantides]

1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of Scandinavia or its peoples, languages, or cultures.


A native or inhabitant of Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, or Finland.


A short swarthy Scandinavian is more Nordic than the tallest and blondest southern European...or anyone outside Scandinavia for that matter, unless a person dosen't genetically cluster and show affinity
with other Scandinavians on DNA tests...one is really not Nordic in my opinion.


I don't even understand why everyone has this huge desire to be Nordic and always have to prove their Nordicness...

[Henry]

A short swarthy Scandinavian is more Nordic than the tallest and blondest southern European...or anyone outside Scandinavia for that matter, unless a person dosen't genetically cluster and show affinity
with other Scandinavians on DNA tests...one is really not Nordic in my opinion.


I don't even understand why everyone has this huge desire to be Nordic and always have to prove their Nordicness...

Would you consider this Italian nordic?

http://www.slosport.org/images/novice/2008/0809nogvesnapredstavitev/nog_Vesna_predstavitev_57.jpg

[Pallantides]

Would you consider this Italian nordic?

http://www.slosport.org/images/novice/2008/0809nogvesnapredstavitev/nog_Vesna_predstavitev_57.jpg

No, maybe he has distant Nordic/Norse ancestors but he is not Nordic or native to any of the Scandinavian countries.

these are Nordic people:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12320&page=4

[Henry]

No, maybe he has distant Nordic/Norse ancestors but he is not Nordic or native to any of the Scandinavian countries.

these are Nordic people:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12320&page=4

He doesnt look distant from Nordics at all. If he's not nordic then what is he? And if language is one of the factors to being nordic then how are people from Finland nordic? They dont even have a similar language to you

[Pallantides]

He doesnt look distant from Nordics at all. If he's not nordic then what is he?

Yeah gosh if he took a DNA test I guess he would definitly cluster with Scandinavians and not other Italians.
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/5795/big3.png

Fitting the 'Nordid' phenotype don't make you more Northern European, Scandinavian, Norse or Nordic.

[Psychonaut]

Iberia, French and Italians in general are more nordic and germanic than Spaniards are, accept it already.

Whoa there, highspeed...

Iberians are more Nordic than Spaniards? You been sniffing the retard glue today?

[Stefan]

Whoa there, highspeed...

Iberians are more Nordic than Spaniards? You been sniffing the retard glue today?

I think he was talking about the member. I thought the same thing at first too though. :D

[Psychonaut]

I think he was talking about the member. I thought the same thing at first too though. :D

I see; that's a possibility. Although, it's difficult to tell what, if anything at all, some of these native English speakers who chronically use bad grammar and punctuation are trying to say.

[Henry]

Whoa there, highspeed...

Iberians are more Nordic than Spaniards? You been sniffing the retard glue today?

No, swarthy Spaniard. Pay attention. I was talking about the user "Iberia" on here. If i was talking about Iberians then i would have added an NS to the end of Iberia wouldnt I?

[Ibericus]

No, swarthy Spaniard.
Dude, what is your problem ? Maybe we can help you

[Ibericus]

Yeah gosh if he took a DNA test I guess he would definitly cluster with Scandinavians and not other Italians.
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/5795/big3.png

Fitting the 'Nordid' phenotype don't make you more Northern European, Scandinavian, Norse or Nordic.

There is no way in the DNA to tell if someone is nordic or not.

[Henry]

Dude, what is your problem ? Maybe we can help you

Why dont you want Spaniards to be referred to as swarthy?

[Psychonaut]

No, swarthy Spaniard.

I see you have been sniffing the glue today! :thumb001:


If i was talking about Iberians then i would have added an NS to the end of Iberia wouldnt I?

I don't really know if you would've. With just this one sentence you've twice failed to capitalize the pronoun "I," failed to use an apostrophe in "wouldn't," used the wrong form of the verb "to be" in the first clause of your sentence, and neglected to use a comma after "Iberia." Were I you, I'd be a bit more concerned about the presentation of my words than the pigmentation of Spaniards.

[Ibericus]

A short swarthy Scandinavian is more Nordic than the tallest and blondest southern European...or anyone outside Scandinavia for that matter, unless a person dosen't genetically cluster and show affinity
with other Scandinavians on DNA tests...one is really not Nordic in my opinion.


I don't even understand why everyone has this huge desire to be Nordic and always have to prove their Nordicness...

So you are saying there are no nordic people in the USA or Canada because they are not scandinavian. Anyways, this thread was not about nordic people, it was about skin pigmentation. Do not deviate threads.

[Stefan]

So you are saying there are no nordic people in the USA or Canada because they are not scandinavian. Anyways, this thread was not about nordic people, it was about skin pigmentation. Do not deviate threads.

There are Scandinavian-Americans. I would say they aren't Nordic in the geopolitical sense, but some Americans are Nordid in the phenotypical sense.

[Kadu]

There is no way in the DNA to tell if someone is nordic or not.


If an individual belongs to a genetic cluster shared only by people hailing from Nordic countries, which is what it happens in the picture posted by Pallantides above, then you can consider that person Nordic, Nordic as in belonging to the Northern European genepool, therefore genetically Nordic.

[Pallantides]

There is no way in the DNA to tell if someone is nordic or not.

Nordic people:
http://kristinelowe.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/10/30/svensken_norsken_dansken1.jpg

[Ibericus]

If an individual belongs to a genetic cluster shared only by people hailing from Nordic countries, which is what it happens in the picture posted by Pallantides above, then you can consider that person Nordic, Nordic as in belonging to the Northern European genepool, therefore genetically Nordic.

This is not true. The genetic clusters cannot be done in a individual basis. They can only be done once you have a large sample population size.

[Henry]

This is the 2nd search result i got when i googled Spaniard in google images. Look how swarthy and mediterranean he looks

http://www.topnews.in/sports/files/flores.jpg

[Ibericus]

This is the 2nd search result i got when i googled Spaniard in google images. Look how swarthy and mediterranean he looks

http://www.topnews.in/sports/files/flores.jpg

Nice try, but Flores is part Gypsy.
He is the nephew of the gypsy singer Lola Flores.

And what is your point ? Do you have any prove that spanairds are darker than , French or Swiss or Italians ? We are still waiting. I have shown a scientific study. You have shown nothing.

[Kadu]

This is not true. The genetic clusters cannot be done in a individual basis. They can only be done with a large sample population size.


Not when we are dealing with autosomal clusters, just see Pallantides autosomal results posted here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12177)


http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/8950/europe1.jpg


You can see where he stands on the Euro plot. He clusters with other Northern Europeans, namely Scandinavians therefore he's Nordic.

[Ibericus]

Not when we are dealing with autosomal clusters, just see Pallantides autosomal results posted here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12177)


http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/8950/europe1.jpg


You can see where he stands on the Euro plot. He clusters with other Northern Europeans, namely Scandinavians therefore he's Nordic.

well, I have seen also other plots like this :

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/420/priceplotsm4.png

[Henry]

Nice try, but Flores is part Gypsy.

And what is your point ? Do you have any prove that spanairds are darker than , French or Swiss or Italians ? We are still waiting. I have shown a scientific study. You have shown nothing.

What scientific study? I dont see anything. And its pretty obvious they are clearly darker and more mediterranean. I already explained why. And what do you have to say about this quote from an anthropologist. He didnt say this about any other people in Europe

""Despite the complex political history of Spain, the living population is basically and almost wholly Mediterranean." ""

[Stefan]

You can't be more "Mediterranean". You are either born near the Mediterranean or you're not.

Edit: It is in the same boat as Nordic by the way.

[Kadu]

well, I have seen also other plots like this :

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/420/priceplotsm4.png

Yes, it's pretty much the same, Pallantides would cluster(or at least that group would be the closest to him) with Swedish in that one.

[Pallantides]

Not when we are dealing with autosomal clusters, just see Pallantides autosomal results posted here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12177)


http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/8950/europe1.jpg


You can see where he stands on the Euro plot. He clusters with other Northern Europeans, namely Scandinavians therefore he's Nordic.
:)

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/8131/256sk.jpg(everyone close to me on this plot are other Norwegians.)

I just found the perfect PCA at deCODEme for distinguishing between North/Northwest European ancestry vs. South/Southeast European and West Asian. This is the classic intra-West Eurasian cline identified by most studies on European genetics.

Go to Europe 2-5-6. All the people further to the right are more North/Northwest European, while those to the left are more South/Southeast European and West Asian.

[Ibericus]

What scientific study? I dont see anything.
The opening post of this thread.



And its pretty obvious they are clearly darker and more mediterranean. I already explained why.

Prove ? Sources ?

Saying they are darker is not a prove. Showing pictures of gypsies is not a prove neither.


And what do you have to say about this quote from an anthropologist. He didnt say this about any other people in Europe

""Despite the complex political history of Spain, the living population is basically and almost wholly Mediterranean." ""
First of all, being mediterranean doesnt mean being darker. It is not a prove of anything. And what is the source of this ?
Because Spaniards genetically are not typically mediterranean, they are closer to Atlantic countries, not mediterraneans. Spain has little to do with other meditarranean counries like Italy or Greece, genetically speaking. Spain is much closer to France, than to Italy for example.

[Comte Arnau]

Henry, here you have more definitive proof of Spanish swarthiness. Look what comes up when I googled Spanish football player:


http://copa-mundial-sudafrica-2010.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Marcos-Senna.jpg

[Wulfhere]

Spain has little to do with other meditarranean counries like Italy or Greece, genetically speaking.

You're right. Spaniards are much more greasy and swarthy than Italians or even Greeks. Why else would this subject keep popping up?

[Ibericus]

You're right. Spaniards are much more greasy and swarthy than Italians or even Greeks. Why else would this subject keep popping up?

OK stupid girl, who cares about your opinion ? You are repeating yourself.

[Wulfhere]

OK stupid girl, who cares about your opinion ?

You, obviously.

The fact is that the inclusion of Spaniards in the definition of "white" stretches it so far that we might as well include Arabs and Turks too.

[Stefan]

You, obviously.

The fact is that the inclusion of Spaniards in the definition of "white" stretches it so far that we might as well include Arabs and Turks too.

Except there is a historical and genetic relation between Spaniards and other Eurpeans, that isn't found among those groups. This is of course disregarding phenotypical similarity as well. Most Iberians look much more European than most Turks and especially Arabs would.

[Ibericus]

You, obviously.

The fact is that the inclusion of Spaniards in the definition of "white" stretches it so far that we might as well include Arabs and Turks too.

we are not talking about the white race here in this thread.
And what is your definition of white race anyways ?
Spaniards are genetically european. They cluster with other europeans. Arabs are turks do not.

[Wulfhere]

Except there is a historical and genetic relation between Spaniards and other Eurpeans, that isn't found among those groups. This is of course disregarding phenotypical similarity as well. Most Iberians look much more European than most turks and especially Arabs would.

But you're just quoting reports - exactly what the pro-multiculturalists do to prove we're all the same. Let me set this out straight - Spaniards look swarthy and greasy, and are not a race I would be happy to have my family have sexual congress with.

[Comte Arnau]

You, obviously.

The fact is that the inclusion of Spaniards in the definition of "white" stretches it so far that we might as well include Arabs and Turks too.

Sure, just as the inclusion of some northern and eastern countries should make us include Siberians and Central Asians.

[Stefan]

But you're just quoting reports - exactly what the pro-multiculturalists do to prove we're all the same. Let me set this out straight - Spaniards look swarthy and greasy, and are not a race I would be happy to have my family have sexual congress with.

Then that is your personal issue. Most definitely not the issue of the common person.

[Wulfhere]

we are not talking about the white race here in this thread.
And what is your definition of white race anyways ?
Spaniards are genetically european. They cluster with other europeans. Arabs are turks do not.

My definition of the white race would include Germanic, Celtic and (some) Slavonic peoples.

[Ibericus]

But you're just quoting reports - exactly what the pro-multiculturalists do to prove we're all the same. Let me set this out straight - Spaniards look swarthy and greasy, and are not a race I would be happy to have my family have sexual congress with.
Do you have any prove to all your claims, instead of repeating yourself.
Any spaniard could pass as a german in Germany.

[Stefan]

Any spaniard could pass as a german in Germany.

I'm not sure about that. Many would, yes, but not "any".

[Ibericus]

My definition of the white race would include Germanic, Celtic and (some) Slavonic peoples.

Spaniards are more Celtic than most european countries. SPaniards are basically Celtiberians.

[Wulfhere]

Do you have any prove to all your claims, instead of repeating yourself.
Any spaniard could pass as a german in Germany.

You really don't get it, do you? I don't need proof for a feeling, a gut reaction. A race recognises itself, and Spaniards just don't cut it, I'm afraid.

[Stefan]

You really don't get it, do you? I don't need proof for a feeling, a gut reaction. A race recognises itself, and Spaniards just don't cut it, I'm afraid.

Race is biological, not social. Ethnicity is social based on biological and cultural similarity. Ethnicities recognize themselves, races do not.

[Henry]

Then that is your personal issue. Most definitely not the issue of the common person.

But it is a common belief. I just met a German on Youtube who said that they consider French and Italians whiter and more similar to them then Spaniards. I havent seen many non-Spaniards who say that Spaniards are whiter than or as white as French and Italians

[Wulfhere]

Spaniards are more Celtic than most european countries. SPaniards are basically Celtiberians.

With quite a lot of Moorish, too. That's your problem. You sure as hell aren't Celts - you look nothing like the Irish or Welsh.

[Comte Arnau]

Strange definition. What is your criteria for being White ?
Spaniards are more Celtic than most european countries. SPaniards are basically Celtiberians.

Celtiberians were one of the Celtic peoples in Spain. It would be better to say that the majority were Celts and Iberians.

[Wulfhere]

Race is biological, not social. Ethnicity is social based on biological and cultural similarity. Ethnicities recognize themselves, races do not.

I assure you that races do recognise themselves.

[Ibericus]

You really don't get it, do you? I don't need proof for a feeling, a gut reaction. A race recognises itself, and Spaniards just don't cut it, I'm afraid.

Race is science, idiot.

[Stefan]

But it is a common belief. I just met a German on Youtube who said that they consider French and Italians whiter and more similar to them then Spaniards. I havent seen many non-Spaniards who say that Spaniards are whiter than or as white as French and Italians

Not on this forum it isn't, and if it were to be in some ways it would be conflicting with European preservation.

[Stefan]

I assure you that races do recognise themselves.

Science and Biology isn't subjective based off of people's opinions. A fact doesn't change because somebody wants it to. Therefore, by saying race recognizes itself, then you must discount race as a biological term, and that is ridiculous.

[Ibericus]

With quite a lot of Moorish, too. That's your problem. You sure as hell aren't Celts - you look nothing like the Irish or Welsh.

Quite a lot of moorish ? That is not true. The moorish blood is basically nonexistent.
And the Irish and Welsh have a lot of germanic in them, they are not just celt, but Celtic-Germanic mixed.

[Comte Arnau]

You really don't get it, do you? I don't need proof for a feeling, a gut reaction. A race recognises itself, and Spaniards just don't cut it, I'm afraid.

Why not try to find a more scientific proof for a reaction? Or is it that you just enjoy trolling by spitting your Hispanophobia? Quite sad, actually.

[Wulfhere]

Race is science, idiot.

Clearly it isn't just science. Otherwise no one would have such uncertainty about Spaniards.

[Stefan]

Clearly it isn't just science. Otherwise no one would have such uncertainty about Spaniards.

The uncertainty is based off of misinformation, and personal bias, not whether or not race is a scientific term.

[Ibericus]

Clearly it isn't just science. Otherwise no one would have such uncertainty about Spaniards.

Only trolls like you have uncertainty. It is pure ignorance. You obviously don't know a shit about spanish people.
Race is based on science.

[Wulfhere]

The uncertainty is based off of misinformation, and personal bias, not whether or not race is a scientific term.

This is just double standards. People don't need to be told what races they regard as kin and which they don't.

[Wulfhere]

Only trolls like you have uncertainty. It is pure ignorance. You obviously don't know a shit about spanish people.

I know just as much about Spaniards as I do about negroes or Pakis - i.e., as much as I need to.

[Stefan]

This is just double standards. People don't need to be told what races they regard as kin and which they don't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(biology)

"In biology, a race is any inbreeding group, including taxonomic subgroups such as subspecies, taxonomically subordinate to a species and superordinate to a subrace and marked by a pre-determined profile of latent factors of hereditary traits."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity

"An ethnic group is a group of humans whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or assumed.[1][2] This shared heritage may be based upon putative common ancestry, history, kinship, religion, language, shared territory, nationality or physical appearance. Members of an ethnic group are conscious of belonging to an ethnic group; moreover ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness."

[Henry]

Not on this forum it isn't, and if it were to be in some ways it would be conflicting with European preservation.

I know this is a European preservation forum which is why you need to accept that alot of people see Spaniards as a lost cause and people who arent and cant be as white as other Europeans because the majority of them arent as opposed to only some Italians or French or whatever people Spaniards wanna say are as dark or darker and more meditteranean than them

[Wulfhere]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(biology)

"In biology, a race is any inbreeding group, including taxonomic subgroups such as subspecies, taxonomically subordinate to a species and superordinate to a subrace and marked by a pre-determined profile of latent factors of hereditary traits."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity

"An ethnic group is a group of humans whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or assumed.[1][2] This shared heritage may be based upon putative common ancestry, history, kinship, religion, language, shared territory, nationality or physical appearance. Members of an ethnic group are conscious of belonging to an ethnic group; moreover ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness."

Didn't you read what I wrote? It's about feelings and gut reactions, not statistics or science.

[Ibericus]

I know just as much about Spaniards as I do about negroes or Pakis - i.e., as much as I need to.

Yes, because If you did know about spanish people you wouldnt say they are like Arabs or turks. This obviously comes from pure ignorance.

[Stefan]

I know this is a European preservation forum which is why you need to accept that alot of people see Spaniards as a lost cause and people who arent and cant be as white as other Europeans because the majority of them arent as opposed to only some Italians or French or whatever people Spaniards wanna say are as dark or darker and more meditteranean than them

And again, that is their own problem. Most people who put out the time to educate themselves, realize that Iberians, with the exception of some isolation, are not much different from other Europeans in terms of relation on the hereditary part. Whether they have white skin, or a "Mediterranean" look doesn't change this.

[Stefan]

Didn't you read what I wrote? It's about feelings and gut reactions, not statistics or science.

Then it isn't race. It is defined as ethnicity. Using a term wrongly doesn't change its meaning.

[Comte Arnau]

I know just as much about Spaniards as I do about negroes or Pakis - i.e., as much as I need to.


alot of people see Spaniards as a lost cause

One must admit the guys are funny. Mates at the nursery must laugh a lot.

[Wulfhere]

Yes, because If you did know about spanish people you wouldnt say they are like Arabs or turks.

Or maybe if I took the time to learn about Arabs or Turks I might say they weren't that different to Spaniards. Frankly, I don't care. I'm not interested in the history or culture of non-white races, or only so far as it presents a problem to mine.

[Ibericus]

Didn't you read what I wrote? It's about feelings and gut reactions, not statistics or science.
Race is defined by science. Your feelings have nothing to do with the definition of race.

[Wulfhere]

Race is defined by science. Your feelings have nothing to do with the definition of race.

You only say that because it's to your advantage to do so.

[Ibericus]

Or maybe if I took the time to learn about Arabs or Turks I might say they weren't that different to Spaniards. Frankly, I don't care. I'm not interested in the history or culture of non-white races, or only so far as it presents a problem to mine.

So, you have never seen spanairds in your life, yet you say they are darker and greasier than greeks or italians ??

[Wulfhere]

So, you have never seen spanairds in your life, yet you say they are darker and greasier than greeks or italians ??

I've seen many Spaniards - and yes, they are.

[Ibericus]

You only say that because it's to your advantage to do so.

You said you consider Celts to be part of the white race. Yet, Spaniards are more Celt than most european countries. Nice try

[Ibericus]

I've seen many Spaniards - and yes, they are.

well, I can tell you they are not. I have lived in France, and I consider the french and spaniards to be basically the same. And I have been both in Greece and Italy and they are definately darker and different than Spanairds.

[Wulfhere]

You said you consider Celts to be part of the white race. Yet, Spaniards are more Celt than most european countries. Nice try

No, that's a crock of shit I'm afraid. Celts are Irish, or Welsh, or Highland Scots. Whatever Celtic strain may have existed in Spain has been swamped by later invasions, such as that of the Moors.

Spaniards aren't Celts! Accept this, and get over it.

[Ibericus]

No, that's a crock of shit I'm afraid. Celts are Irish, or Welsh, or Highland Scots. Whatever Celtic strain may have existed in Spain has been swamped by later invasions, such as that of the Moors.

Spaniards aren't Celts! Accept this, and get over it.

The moors ? A minority of 1% have swamped ? Yeah, sure .
And , yes , Spaniards are definately Celtiberian. Like it or not. You can't change history. Accept this, and get over it.

[Kadu]

You said you consider Celts to be part of the white race. Yet, Spaniards are more Celt than most european countries. Nice try

Please Iberia, spare us from your historical and linguistic inaccuracies, don't embarass us.

[Stefan]

well, I can tell you they are not. I have lived in France, and I consider the french and spaniards to be basically the same. And I have been both in Greece and Italy and they are definately darker and different than Spanairds.

While I notice your effort toward arguing against some people who plead self-ignorance and don't correct themselves, I do have to say that it is kind of hypocritical to say that many Italians and Greeks on the other hand are "darker". This is especially so when there isn't much evidence to back this up past personal relations, which of course could be deceiving. In the long run, this would just sprout a different argument, and hurt your discussion more than help it.

@Wulfere How about you start backing up your claims with proof, other than some superficial statements that could be made with 2 second glances at the wikipedia page on Spain. If there was significant Moorish admixture, Spaniards would cluster more with North Africans and Middle Easterners on genetic tests as a massive grouping than they do. Instead most cluster with other Europeans.

[Ibericus]

Please Iberia, spare us from your historical and linguistic inaccuracies, don't embarass us.

What is the part you don't agree with ? Spain had the highest celtic settlement saturation of all Europe. That is a historical fact.
And the moors were a minority of just 1% and they were later all expelled, and then we had the blood cleansning. Like it or not.

[Psychonaut]

I know this is a European preservation forum which is why you need to accept that alot of people see Spaniards as a lost cause and people who arent and cant be as white as other Europeans because the majority of them arent as opposed to only some Italians or French or whatever people Spaniards wanna say are as dark or darker and more meditteranean than them

Good Gods, man! This sentence is a lost cause! If you're actually an American, and not some Eurotroll, then our education system is far worse off than I feared.

[Grumpy Cat]

I think my father rolls over in his grave a bit every time some non-Nordic person spouts Nordicism.

[Kadu]

What is the part you don't agree with ? Spain had the highest celtic settlement saturation of all Europe. That is a historical fact.
And the moors were a minority of just 1% and they were later all expelled, and then we had the blood cleansning. Like it or not.

You clearly stated that we are, but we are not anymore. Only the Celtic speaking countries of the British isles and Brittany of course in Western France can be considered such in the present day.


You said you consider Celts to be part of the white race. Yet, Spaniards are more Celt than most european countries. Nice try

[Stefan]

What is the part you don't agree with ? Spain had the highest celtic settlement saturation of all Europe. That is a historical fact.
And the moors were a minority of just 1% and they were later all expelled, and then we had the blood cleansning. Like it or not.

There was Celtic settlement, of course, but I doubt it was the most of all of Europe. Gaul for example, was probably much more Celtic on average. Most of Europe has had its racial identity since before the expansion of Indo-European languages to this extent anyway, so I doubt these Ethno-Lingual groups matter much in a phenotypical discussion. Of course there is the matter of genetic lineage, which does have some relevance with Ethno-Lingual expansion.

[Ibericus]

You clearly stated that we are, but we are not anymore. Only the Celtic speaking countries of the British isles and Brittany of course in Western France can be considered such in the present day.

I was not talking about celt-speaking countries, but Celtic heritage.
Just because Spain or France speak latin languages doesn't mean they don't have as much celtic heritage than present celtic-speaking countries.

[Wulfhere]

I was not talking about celt-speaking countries, but Celtic heritage.
Just because Spain or France speak latin languages doesn't mean they don't have as much celtic heritage than present celtic-speaking countries.

Which is a completely meaningless thing to say, of course.

[Ibericus]

There was Celtic settlement, of course, but I doubt it was the most of all of Europe. Gaul for example, was probably much more Celtic on average. Most of Europe has had its racial identity since before the expansion of Indo-European languages to this extent anyway, so I doubt these Ethno-Lingual groups matter much in a phenotypical discussion. Of course there is the matter of genetic lineage, which does have some relevance with Ethno-Lingual expansion.

"Modern scholarship, however, has clearly proven that Celtic presence and influences were most substantial in Iberia (with perhaps the highest settlement saturation in Western Europe), particularly in the western and northern regions."

Alberto J. Lorrio, Gonzalo Ruiz Zapatero (2005). "The Celts in Iberia: An Overview". E-Keltoi: Journal of Interdisciplinary Celtic Studies 6: 167–254. http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol6/6_4/lorrio_zapatero_6_4.html.

[Ibericus]

Which is a completely meaningless thing to say, of course.
You just talk and talk, with no proofs, you are pure superficial talking. Saying "you are dark and arab and you are not white" doesn't prove anything. You are just embarassing yourself.
I don't think any sane person in this forum, apart from trolls and racial insecure believe that spaniards are like turks or arabs. You are just pure ignorance lady.

[Comte Arnau]

'White' for an American means Celto-Germanic, but really, who cares? This is about Europeans, afaik.

[Ibericus]

Im not sure Wulfhere and Henry are even White. They are probably south-american mestizos, resentful and jealous of spanairds. :D Their behaviour is not typical of europeans.

[Kadu]

I was not talking about celt-speaking countries, but Celtic heritage.
Just because Spain or France speak latin languages doesn't mean they don't have as much celtic heritage than present celtic-speaking countries.


Celtic heritage means crap if you don't have the language to pass it on. And the Celtic people of the Iron age didn't belong solely to one culture, Central European Celts had different customs and a different way of living from their Iberian and British isles cousins. And even between these two there were differences, though minor of course.
The Iberian Celts were unique as their cultural kernel predated the existence of Celtic languages and existed possibly since the end of Chalcolithic. The Celtic languages were incorporated without the complete replacement of the already existent Atlantic native cultures.

[Ibericus]

Celtic heritage means crap if you don't have the language to pass it on.

Wrong. The S-116 branch of R1b is proto-Celtic. The main branch found in western Europe coinciding with highest celtic saturations , from Hallstatt and the expansion, is the S-116 branch. " . Many subclades of R1b divide the various geographic groups of Celts. 2500 years ago, British and Irish Celts belonged mostly to the subclade R1b-L21. Celts from Iberia and south-west Gaul were R1b-M167, while the other Gauls, from central France to southern Germany to northern Italy, belonged to R1b-U152. Further subgroups exist for all these clades (see Origins of European haplogroups).

Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland, the Gaulish to France, the Iberian to Spain and Portugal, and the Alpine remained around Austria, Switzerland, southern Germany, Eastern France and Belgium. The Iberian and Gaulish groups mixed with I2b, I2a and E people, the Alpine with I2b and E, and the Brythonic just with I2b people. "


The Iberian genetic base is heavily Celtic. In fact, one of the most prestigious scientific journals in the world, The Oxford University Journal of Molecular Biology and Evolution, codifies the Western European genetic substratum as BASQUE / NORTHERN IBERIAN (Proto-Celtic), of which the Spanish, Portuguese, Irish, Cornish, Scottish and Welsh total more than 70% each and the Bretons and English about 60%. Iberia is nearly 3/4 Celtic, with the remainder being mainly Sub-Mediterranean (meaning with some Atlantic influences) and Mainstream Mediterranean. The majority of Iberians, particularly in the west, are heavily Paleo-Atlantid, Nordid Atlantid or Altlanto-Mediterranean. In brief, Iberians are predominantly Atlantic Celtic peoples.



And the Celtic people of the Iron age didn't belong solely to one culture, Central European Celts had different customs and a different way of living from their Iberian and British isles cousins. And even between these two there were differences, though minor of course.
The Iberian Celts were unique as their cultural kernel predated the existence of Celtic languages and existed possibly since the end of Chalcolithic. The Celtic languages were incorporated without the complete replacement of the already existent Atlantic native cultures
I know.

[Stefan]

The Iberian Celts were unique as their cultural kernel predated the existence of Celtic languages and existed possibly since the end of Chalcolithic. The Celtic languages were incorporated without the complete replacement of the already existent Atlantic native cultures

These Atlantic cultures, including Iberians(Eastern Iberia) right? How much information do you have on them? Oh how I wish there was an Iberian jackpot found, and we gather a whole bunch of knowledge from it. :D

[Comte Arnau]

These Atlantic cultures, including Iberians(Eastern Iberia) right? How much information do you have on them? Oh how I wish there was an Iberian jackpot found, and we gather a whole bunch of knowledge from it. :D

Celts in eastern Iberia were either few or were pushed into the West/North by Iberian peoples (Iberian in the real ethnic sense of the world, not in peninsular).

[Stefan]

Celts in eastern Iberia were either few or were pushed into the West/North by Iberian peoples (Iberian in the real ethnic sense of the world, not in peninsular).

I know, that was who I was asking about. I was assuming that there was an earlier connection between Iberians and the peoples of Western Iberia, and that was the cultural influence he was talking about. :D

[Brynhild]

Unless Henry and Wulfhere can actually back up what they're prattling on about, I think it's fair to say that we should treat them this way:
http://www.qubetv.tv/photos/39052/trolls.jpg?1205469500

If the pair of them can't accept the fact that Spanish and other Mediterranean people are European, then they really have no concept at all of what constitutes European preservation.

[Osweo]

I know, that was who I was asking about. I was assuming that there was an earlier connection between Iberians and the peoples of Western Iberia, and that was the cultural influence he was talking about. :D

To put that another way, here's a question I have; What evidence is there for Iberian, or Iberian-like languages, in the areas of Spain that were Celtic, Celtiberian, or Lusitanian in the early historical period?

I glance at the old map, and the placenames seem largely Celtic in these areas... Am I not looking hard enough? :D

[Comte Arnau]

I know, that was who I was asking about. I was assuming that there was an earlier connection between Iberians and the peoples of Western Iberia, and that was the cultural influence he was talking about. :D

IMO, the only ones connected with Iberians could be the Basques, not as close relatives, but as members of the same family or (macro-)group.

Some defend though the link could be just a case of Sprachbund (convergence area).

[Stefan]

To put that another way, here's a question I have; What evidence is there for Iberian, or Iberian-like languages, in the areas of Spain that were Celtic, Celtiberian, or Lusitanian in the early historical period?

I glance at the old map, and the placenames seem largely Celtic in these areas... Am I not looking hard enough? :D

Well there probably was a linguistic change, but cultural traditions from the Atlantic peoples kept moving on down the line. That is what I gathered from Kadu's post. What I was asking was if this pre-Celtic Atlantic European group included Iberians(Eastern-Iberians) and whether or not they are a good basis for the existence of this group. If so, how much did he know about them. I find it very intriguing.

[Comte Arnau]

To put that another way, here's a question I have; What evidence is there for Iberian, or Iberian-like languages, in the areas of Spain that were Celtic, Celtiberian, or Lusitanian in the early historical period?

I glance at the old map, and the placenames seem largely Celtic in these areas... Am I not looking hard enough? :D

EDIT: Sorry, I misread it.

[Kadu]

Wrong. The S-116 branch of R1b is proto-Celtic. The main branch found in western Europe coinciding with highest celtic saturations , from Hallstatt and the expansion, is the S-116 branch. " . Many subclades of R1b divide the various geographic groups of Celts. 2500 years ago, British and Irish Celts belonged mostly to the subclade R1b-L21. Celts from Iberia and south-west Gaul were R1b-M167, while the other Gauls, from central France to southern Germany to northern Italy, belonged to R1b-U152. Further subgroups exist for all these clades (see Origins of European haplogroups).



Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland, the Gaulish to France, the Iberian to Spain and Portugal, and the Alpine remained around Austria, Switzerland, southern Germany, Eastern France and Belgium. The Iberian and Gaulish groups mixed with I2b, I2a and E people, the Alpine with I2b and E, and the Brythonic just with I2b people. "

And how do you know that, did you compare actual samples with samples found in skeletons* on Iron age graves?

*Which don't exist



The Iberian genetic base is heavily Celtic. In fact, one of the most prestigious scientific journals in the world, The Oxford University Journal of Molecular Biology and Evolution, codifies the Western European genetic substratum as BASQUE / NORTHERN IBERIAN (Proto-Celtic), of which the Spanish, Portuguese, Irish, Cornish, Scottish and Welsh total more than 70% each and the Bretons and English about 60%. Iberia is nearly 3/4 Celtic, with the remainder being mainly Sub-Mediterranean (meaning with some Atlantic influences) and Mainstream Mediterranean.

As in Atlantic Bronze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Bronze_Age), and yes we already know that most Western European males share the same R1b subclade. However the existence of such an high percentage of R1b doesn't comprove anyone's Celticity it just proves that most Western Europeans have a common male ancestor who carried the M-269 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#R1b1b2) mutation.



The majority of Iberians, particularly in the west, are heavily Paleo-Atlantid, Nordid Atlantid or Altlanto-Mediterranean. In brief, Iberians are predominantly Atlantic Celtic peoples.

Your opinion, AFAIK, no Anthropologist has ever claimed that, not Baker, Deniker, Coon, Sergi, Bañuelos, Eickstedt, Hooton or whomsoever.

[Ibericus]

And how do you know that, did you compare actual samples with samples found in skeletons* on Iron age graves?

*Which don't exist

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/967/s1162.png




As in Atlantic Bronze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Bronze_Age), and yes we already know that most Western European males share the same R1b subclade. However the existence of such an high percentage of R1b doesn't comprove anyone's Celticity it just proves that most Western Europeans have a common male ancestor who carried the M-269 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#R1b1b2) mutation.

I didn't say R1b equals Celticity. I said, the R-116 branch, which is proto-Celtic

[Kadu]

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/967/s1162.png

You have yet to correlate those migrational patterns and therefore mutations with samples from skeletons of the Iron age of the same regions as those samples otherwise you can't claim that those modern individuals carry an haplogroup of a male ancestor who spoke a Celtic language.






I didn't say R1b equals Celticity. I said, the R-116 branch, which is proto-Celtic

Proto-Celtic in our specific case relates to the Atlantic Bronze and it isn't equal to Celtic. Celtic as in the Hallstatt culture.

[The Ripper]

It honestly doesn't matter - no amount of scientific "proof" will remove the fact that Spaniards look greasy and swarthy.


In Origins of the British (2006), Stephen Oppenheimer states (pages 375 and 378):

By far the majority of male gene types in the British Isles derive from Iberia (Spain and Portugal), ranging from a low of 59% in Fakenham, Norfolk to highs of 96% in Llangefni, north Wales and 93% Castlerea, Ireland. On average only 30% of gene types in England derive from north-west Europe. Even without dating the earlier waves of north-west European immigration, this invalidates the Anglo-Saxon wipeout theory …

… 75-95% of British Isles (genetic) matches derive from Iberia … Ireland, coastal Wales, and central and west-coast Scotland are almost entirely made up from Iberian founders, while the rest of the non-English parts of the British Isles have similarly high rates. England has rather lower rates of Iberian types with marked heterogeneity, but no English sample has less than 58% of Iberian samples …


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_British_Isles#Y_and_mtDNA_h aplogroups

(Psychological Projection? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection))


Sometimes the truth hurts.

:thumbs up

[Ibericus]

Proto-Celtic in our specific case relates to the Atlantic Bronze and it isn't equal to Celtic. Celtic as in the Hallstatt culture.

The R-116 originated in the Hallstatt zone, were the proto-Celt indo-europeans were established. You can see it in the map. Also here :
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/1765/r1bsubclades2.png

[Wulfhere]

Some interesting photos below - both Argentine presidents, and as has already been stated, Argentines are "pure" Spaniards. The first one is a typical, greasy dago, and the second is darker than many Pakis I've met, and looks almost negro. Also see how black the hair of both of them is. And bear in mind that both of these, as presidents, are top of the range Argentines.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8a/203301_queen_and_menem_shake_hands300.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/CFK_y_Gordon_brown_.jpg

[Ibericus]

Some interesting photos below - both Argentine presidents, and as has already been stated, Argentines are "pure" Spaniards. The first one is a typical, greasy dago, and the second is darker than many Pakis I've met, and looks almost negro. Also see how black the hair of both of them is. And bear in mind that both of these, as presidents, are top of the range Argentines.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8a/203301_queen_and_menem_shake_hands300.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/CFK_y_Gordon_brown_.jpg

It's funny because the first one is Menem, of Syrian descend, and the second is of German descend. Kirschner.

[The Ripper]

The Queen's English, the Imperial measurements, Greenwich Median Time and now... The Queen's Skin Tone? Always setting standards for others with yourselves as the measuring stick. :D

[Wulfhere]

The Queen's English, the Imperial measurements, Greenwich Median Time and now... The Queen's Skin Tone? Always setting standards for others with yourselves as the measuring stick. :D

Absolutely. We do it because we can.

[Ibericus]

The Queen's English, the Imperial measurements, Greenwich Median Time and now... The Queen's Skin Tone? Always setting standards for others with yourselves as the measuring stick. :D
Carlos Menem, the man in the photo, his parents are Syrian.
And the woman is a German-Argentine.
SHe is not fooling us.

[Ibericus]

Steve Kerrigan, of England :

http://www.failproxy.info/browse.php?u=Oi8vaTExNi5waG90b2J1Y2tldC5jb20vYWxid W1zL28yMS9LYWR1X2FsYnVtL1N0ZXZlS2VycmlnYW4uanBn&b=13

Rowan Atkinson, England :

http://www.failproxy.info/browse.php?u=Oi8vd3d3LmNiYy5jYS9nZngvcGl4L2F0a2luc 29ucm93YW5fY3BfNDc1ODE3MC5qcGc%3D&b=13

Francisco Vega Suárez , of Spain :

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/5163/kikovega.jpg

[Lars]

[Nina Jablonski and George Chaplin. "The Evolution of Human Skin Coloration". J Hum Evol, 2000; pp. 74-75]
http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/chem...color_2000.pdf

Please fix the broken link.

[The Ripper]

Absolutely. We do it because we can.

Could, my dear Wulfhere, could.

Now those who desperately cling at the vestiges of Anglo-Saxon supremacy just come across as delusional an detached from the real world.

They have much in common with Russian Soviet-nostalgics and the basest form of neo-Nazis: the primitive bully-mentality reigns supreme.

[Ibericus]

Please fix the broken link.

here you go
http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/chem/faculty/leontis/chem447/PDF_files/Jablonski_skin_color_2000.pdf

[Freomæg]

With regards to the study on skin-tone: I wonder how much of a factor diet plays. It's well-known that, for example, excessive eating of carrots can result in orange skin. South and north European diets do differ a fair amount, and obviously certain fruits and vegetables are not available to both regions.

[Stefan]

With regards to the study on skin-tone: I wonder how much of a factor diet plays. It's well-known that, for example, excessive eating of carrots can result in orange skin. South and north European diets do differ a fair amount, and obviously certain fruits and vegetables are not available to both regions.

I think it might affect opacity, but are you talking about an individual basis or an evolutionary trait? If the first then we could test this by looking at a Southern European who has had the diet of a Northern Europe or vice versa.

[Lars]

You, obviously.

The fact is that the inclusion of Spaniards in the definition of "white" stretches it so far that we might as well include Arabs and Turks too.

Why use the term 'white' at all? I think the term is too all-embracing, tainted and vague to describe one's ethnicity.

[Wulfhere]

Could, my dear Wulfhere, could.

Now those who desperately cling at the vestiges of Anglo-Saxon supremacy just come across as delusional an detached from the real world.

They have much in common with Russian Soviet-nostalgics and the basest form of neo-Nazis: the primitive bully-mentality reigns supreme.

Lol.

[Murphy]

First, I can only hope that Spaniards are not too bothered about not being considered "white" by a bunch of racialist nutjobs from the Anglosphere. Spaniards are still European, I would argue much more so than us on the Isles.

Secondly, Wulfhere, I find my self saying this quite often now.. but you are a cunt. Honestly.. every thread you enter seems to just get ruined. I am sure you would fit in more at eNationalist or Stormfront.

Lastly, I always find those who consider themselves superior because they are Anglo-Saxon, to be amusing. It was the Normans and the Jews who built England, after all :D.

Regards,
The Papist.

[Freomæg]

I think it might affect opacity, but are you talking about an individual basis or an evolutionary trait? If the first then we could test this by looking at a Southern European who has had the diet of a Northern Europe or vice versa.
Just an on average basis, but not evolutionary - more cultural. For example, I think carrots and root vegetables are perhaps consumed on average more in Britain than in the mediterranean countries. This could account for why the study found that southern English (and Belgians) have a slightly darker unexposed skin tone than Spaniards. It's just a thought.

[Falkata]

Some interesting photos below - both Argentine presidents, and as has already been stated, Argentines are "pure" Spaniards.



I´ve said Argentina has a very important ammount of people of pure spaniard ancestry, specially from Galicia, never that the whole country was populated by spaniards... Read again instead of writting nosense
Italian ancestry is even bigger than the spanish one, and there are also middle easterns, germans, poles and of course, indians and mestizos.

[Ibericus]

I´ve said Argentina has a very important ammount of people of pure spaniard ancestry, specially from Galicia, never that the whole country was populated by spaniards... Read again instead of writting nosense
Italian ancestry is even bigger than the spanish one, and there are also middle easterns, germans, poles and of course, indians and mestizos.

Falkata, the man in the photo has Syrian parents. Why do they try so hard that they have to post pictures of non-spaniards and say they are spaniards ??
Gypsies, Syrians, germans...:(

[Wulfhere]

Okay, how about this man - is he Spanish? Looks like another typical greasy dago to me.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Juan_Carlos_da_Espanha.jpg

[Guapo]

Italian ancestry is even bigger than the spanish one.

For Argentina that is very true but they have all become like other Americans. Argentine first and foremost, then European.

[Ibericus]

Okay, how about this man - is he Spanish? Looks like another typical greasy dago to me.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Juan_Carlos_da_Espanha.jpg

Actually he has lot of germanic, french and other european ancestry. That is common in the european monarchies. He is a direct descendant of Frederick Louis of Mecklenburg-Schwerin , among others.

[Falkata]

Okay, how about this man - is he Spanish? Looks like another typical greasy dago to me.



If Juan Carlos is a greasy dago, then the majority of your countrymen are too.
Anyway,he has a mix of different european ancestries as most of the european kings. What a stupid example

[Wulfhere]

Actually he has lot of germanic, french and other european ancestry. That is common in the european monarchies. He is a direct descendant of Frederick Louis of Mecklenburg-Schwerin , among others.

Yes indeed, and so if he's a greasy dago - which he is - then pure-blood Spaniards are even more so.

[Wulfhere]

If Juan Carlos is a greasy dago, then the majority of your countrymen are too.

How so?

[Falkata]

How so?

http://fairtradelifestyle.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/gordon-brown1.jpg

Way more "greasy dago" than Juan Carlos I. I can be posting examples the whole day , but i have better things to do

[Ibericus]

Falkata, she probably likes Steve Kerrigan , of England : :D

http://www.failproxy.info/browse.php?u=Oi8vaTExNi5waG90b2J1Y2tldC5jb20vYWxid W1zL28yMS9LYWR1X2FsYnVtL1N0ZXZlS2VycmlnYW4uanBn&b=13

[Wulfhere]

http://fairtradelifestyle.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/gordon-brown1.jpg

Way more "greasy dago" than Juan Carlos I. I can be posting examples the whole day , but i have better things to do

Lol - he's Scottish you know, not English.

[Falkata]

Lol - he's Scottish you know, not English.

So scottish are greasy dagos then? :confused: Eveybody is a greasy dago except mercians?

The english ex-football player Michael Robinson. He comments the matches in Canal+ Spain

It´s the one in the left, with glasses. Notice the "big" difference with the other man, who is spanish :rolleyes:

http://www.formulatv.com/images/fgaleria/11900/11948_michael-robinson-y-carlos-martinez.jpg
http://tvlia.com/files/2009/08/michael_robinson_292x260.jpg

[Pallantides]

I think Scots have more Norse ancestry than the English.

[Wulfhere]

So scottish are greasy dagos then? :confused: Eveybody is a greasy dago except mercians?

The english ex-football player Michael Robinson. He comments the matches in Canal+ Spain

It´s the one in the left, with glasses. Notice the "big" difference with the other man, who is spanish :rolleyes:

http://www.formulatv.com/images/fgaleria/11900/11948_michael-robinson-y-carlos-martinez.jpg
http://tvlia.com/files/2009/08/michael_robinson_292x260.jpg

For every photo of a quite pale Spaniard it would be easy to find ten more of a really greasy, oily slimy Spaniard.

[Wulfhere]

I think Scots have more Norse ancestry than the English.

They do, but Gordon Brown as that sort of thickset look often found amongst Scottish people and most likely indicating Pictish descent.

[Falkata]

For every photo of a quite pale Spaniard it would be easy to find ten more of a really greasy, oily slimy Spaniard.

LoL my intention was to show you an english who is way darker than Juan Carlos I, not to show you a nordic-looking spaniard. In fact, that spaniard looks very average

[Wulfhere]

LoL my intention was to show you an english who is way darker than Juan Carlos I, not to show you a nordic-looking spaniard. In fact, that spaniard looks very average

But it's not just about skin tone - the oily, greasy countenance of Spaniards is derived from their facial features, too.

[Falkata]

But it's not just about skin tone - the oily, greasy countenance of Spaniards is derived from their facial features, too.

How facial features are greasy, oiled...¿? :confused: I dont know people like that in real life, i mean, just try to have a shower every day, have a healthy diet and make some sport and you dont gonna look in that way.

[Wulfhere]

How facial features are greasy, oiled...¿? :confused: I dont know people like that in real life, i mean, just try to have a shower every day, have a healthy diet and make some sport and you dont gonna look in that way.

I think we are now coming to the crux of the matter. I have never said that Spaniards are oily and greasy - I'm sure that at least some keep themselves clean. What I said is that they look oily and greasy - to an Anglo-Saxon eye at least - and this is connected with their facial features.

[Jägerstaffel]

This thread is awful.

[Pallantides]

This thread is lulz.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I think we are now coming to the crux of the matter. I have never said that Spaniards are oily and greasy - I'm sure that at least some keep themselves clean. What I said is that they look oily and greasy - to an Anglo-Saxon eye at least - and this is connected with their facial features.

Oh yeah? I think you're greasy and oily. Nasty Celtic-German mutt.

[Crux]

This thread is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI3mRJSu9DQ

[Wulfhere]

Oh yeah? I think you're greasy and oily. Nasty Celtic-German mutt.

You are welcome to your opinion.

[poiuytrewq0987]

You are welcome to your opinion.

Yes, your people consummate on "fish and chips" which is among one of the greasiest foods (and crappy too).

[Guapo]

"fish and chips" which is among one of the greasiest foods (and crappy too).

I disagree on the crappy too

[Ibericus]

What is a greasy and oily look ? :confused:

[poiuytrewq0987]

I disagree on the crappy too

The British don't know how to cook, unlike us Balkan people who cook excellent food.

[Pallantides]

What is a greasy and oily look ? :confused:

http://foodcourtlunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/mexican.jpg

[Ibericus]

http://foodcourtlunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/mexican.jpg

Nice. But these are not spaniards, nor europeans. They are Mestizos.
And they are not oily, they are sweated.

The list goes on : Gypsies, Syrians, germans, now mexicans.

[Pallantides]

Nice. But these are not spaniards, nor europeans. They are Mestizos.
And they are not oily, they are sweated.


I know they are Mexicans, you asked for oily and greasy people.

[Tabiti]

The British don't know how to cook, unlike us Balkan people who cook excellent food.
Good taste, maybe, depending on the house-wife cooking skills. However, many women (and men) can't cook. Most dishes are tasty, indeed, but as crappy as the mentioned above "fish and chips". I talk about the modern and popular Balkan, cuisine not the one villagers consumed for hundreds of years.
Anyway, I don't think that including national foods quality in international "fights" is reasonable argument.
People can't be "oily and greasy", chips is;)

[Henry]

I´ve said Argentina has a very important ammount of people of pure spaniard ancestry, specially from Galicia, never that the whole country was populated by spaniards... Read again instead of writting nosense
Italian ancestry is even bigger than the spanish one, and there are also middle easterns, germans, poles and of course, indians and mestizos.

The real reason so many Argentinians look white is because they're descendants of Italians, Germans, Polish or other Europeans whiter than Spaniards. Heres a typical Argentinian of Italian descent (Andres Nocioni) and you can see he looks whiter than an Argentinian of Spanish descent probably would

http://www.nba.com/media/nocioni_300_080105.jpg

[Ibericus]

The real reason so many Argentinians look white is because they're descendants of Italians, Germans, Polish or other Europeans whiter than Spaniards. Heres a typical Argentinian of Italian descent (Andres Nocioni) and you can see he looks whiter than an Argentinian of Spanish descent probably would

http://www.nba.com/media/nocioni_300_080105.jpg

Nice try, but Andres Nocioni is Italo-German-Spanish.

"Andrés was the second son of Pedro José Pilo Nocioni and Ángela Palmira Roux, both also born in Santa Fe"

[Henry]

Swarthy stubborn Spaniard, it doesnt say anything about him being German. Heres his profile http://hoopedia.nba.com/index.php?title=Andres_Nocioni

"He shares both Argentine and Italian citizenship."

[Ibericus]

Swarthy stubborn Spaniard, it doesnt say anything about him being German. Heres his profile http://hoopedia.nba.com/index.php?title=Andres_Nocioni

"He shares both Argentine and Italian citizenship."

Swarthy Mexican, you can't read. His mother is Ángela Palmira Roux.
ROUX is a german surname.

[Falkata]

The real reason so many Argentinians look white is because they're descendants of Italians, Germans, Polish or other Europeans whiter than Spaniards. Heres a typical Argentinian of Italian descent (Andres Nocioni) and you can see he looks whiter than an Argentinian of Spanish descent probably would



mmm sure. Btw,the other day i´ve watched the Champions League, Milan-MuD.
I could see Borriello, a guy from your city,Napoli. What do you think about him?

http://mika29.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/borriello.jpg

I think he is a very good striker and he deserves to go to the World Cup with the pure white Italy :embarrassed

[Henry]

mmm sure. Btw,the other day i´ve watched the Champions League, Milan-MuD.
I could see Borriello, a guy from your city,Napoli. What do you think about him?

http://mika29.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/borriello.jpg

I think he is a very good striker and he deserves to go to the World Cup with the pure white Italy :embarrassed

He's probably Greek descended. Theres nothing else to say. Whats your point swarthy Spaniard?

[Falkata]

He's probably Greek descended. Theres nothing else to say. Whats your point swarthy Spaniard?

He is more italian than you, you are just an immigrant in the US

[Ibericus]

You that are so obsessed with whiteness and blondism. Spain is about 20% blonde while Italy about 10-12%. Greece is even lower.

[Wulfhere]

Yes, your people consummate on "fish and chips" which is among one of the greasiest foods (and crappy too).

Haha - I assure you that we do not, in general, "consumate" on fish and chips!

[Ibericus]

He's probably Greek descended. Theres nothing else to say. Whats your point swarthy Spaniard?

What is your point non-white Mexican ?

[Henry]

You that are so obsessed with whiteness and blondism. Spain is about 20% blonde while Italy about 10-12%. Greece is even lower.

No, there was a list that lised the top 5 darkest haired and eyed people in Europe. Maybe you missed it. Here it is again.

1. Portugal
2. Spain
3. Greece
4. Bulgaria
5. Albania

[Ibericus]

No, there was a list that lised the top 5 darkest haired and eyed people in Europe. Maybe you missed it. Here it is again.

1. Portugal
2. Spain
3. Greece
4. Bulgaria
5. Albania

Sure...Source ?

[Ibericus]

"In Spain, as a whole, some 29 per cent of the male population has black hair, some 68 per cent dark brown, while traces of blondism are visible in 17 per cent. "

(Coon, 1939)

http://racialreality.110mb.com/spaniards.html

Here they talk about 25% :
http://antropologiaaragonesa.org/pdf...tropologia.pdf


Italy :

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/8340/blondismitaly.png

[Henry]

Iberia, we dont need you to make excuses. Theres a list about this now so you cant lie about it anymore. Anything else you have to say doesnt pertain to the list

[Ibericus]

Iberia, we dont need you to make excuses. Theres a list about this now so you cant lie about it anymore. Anything else you have to say doesnt pertain to the list

yes, that list that you invented in 5 seconds. Where is the source of that list ? :D

I give you sources and scientific studies, and you give me an invented list. Everybody here can see how stupid you are.

[Comte Arnau]

Invented lists are cool, but I prefer his maps of white, swarthy and "on the fence" countries. They have that naive Sesame Street touch that is so priceless.

[Henry]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4070/4390912153_8d689ff765.jpg

[Falkata]

This one is new! Is it the 2010 upgrade?? :D

[Bridie]

What is a greasy and oily look ? :confused:"Greasy and oily" are terms that some men use to describe other men who are more popular with the chicks than they are. ;) Their usage indicates feelings of jealousy and inadequacy.

[Stefan]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4070/4390912153_8d689ff765.jpg

That is awesome. You even make it seem like you put more work into it by putting a year. As if it took tons of research to do. :thumb001::D

[Henry]

That is awesome. You even make it seem like you put more work into it by putting a year. As if it took tons of research to do. :thumb001::D

I was thinking about selling it to National Geographic so they could add it in their next issue. What do you think i should i do? You said it looks proffessional and we all know its accurate, could you imagine it on a National Geographic magazine page?

[Kadu]

I was thinking about selling it to National Geographic so they could add it in their next issue. What do you think i should i do? You said it looks proffessional and we all know its accurate, could you imagine it on a National Geographic magazine page?

Just try to get Norway and Sweden in the right place and you'll be fine next time. ;)
Oh BTW, the "partial fence" stripes on Scandinavia are not concordant with the rest either.

[Bridie]

I was thinking about selling it to National Geographic so they could add it in their next issue. What do you think i should i do? You said it looks proffessional and we all know its accurate, could you imagine it on a National Geographic magazine page?I'm not sure that National Geographic has a comedy section...

[Jamt]

..hm

[Bridie]

I never get how Mexicans could out conquer European working-class in America.
By accepting sub-minimum wages. :p

[Comte Arnau]

I see he has incorporated a new category, "partial fence". Some new research, nice.

I guess the difference from dark southern Catalonia to partial-fence northern Catalonia has to be striking, regardless that both share the same Mediterranean shore. Next time I visit Perpignan I'll try not to forget my sunglasses.

[Pallantides]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4070/4390912153_8d689ff765.jpg
Northern Russia more white than Finland?
This map is a joke and must have been made by a mentally handicapped person.

[Comte Arnau]

this map is a joke.

Come on, don't tell him that, it's the result of one long year of hard research. He even visited every single country in Europe to conduct the study. Using Google Airways, of course.

[Zyklop]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4070/4390912153_8d689ff765.jpg
Free training:
http://www.purposegames.com/game/countries-europe-quiz

[Pallantides]

Come on, don't tell him that, it's the result of one long year of hard research. He even visited every single country in Europe to conduct the study. Using Google Airways, of course.

Lol he made it himself?
That is even more funny. :D

[Falkata]

Lol he made it himself?
That is even more funny. :D

Look where your country is located... :D

[Murphy]

It's getting a little tiring seeing Americans such as Henry deciding what is and what is not European.

[Pallantides]

Look where your country is located... :D

OMGF rofl I didn't notice at first...thats hilarious. :laugh2:





*edit*maybe that was a bit to harsh

[antonio]

Are fences expensive or what?
And the Finish, what have these good people against the Finish?

[Amapola]

Are fences expensive or what?
And the Finish, what have these good people against the Finish?

You mean John? :p

[antonio]

You mean John? :p

I mean mappers aka cartographs! :icon_lol:

[Pallantides]

I'm amazed that he got the Balkan countries right but not Scandinavia. :p

[Murphy]

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/4217/wtfsj.jpg

So much for the master race.

[Henry]

Are fences expensive or what?
And the Finish, what have these good people against the Finish?

But enough about Finland.How do you really feel about Spain being in red?

[Falkata]

He paints a map and now he asks us about how we feel about it? :confused:

http://pillateunlinux.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/caballo-loco.jpg

[Henry]

He paints a map and now he asks us about how we feel about it? :confused:

http://pillateunlinux.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/caballo-loco.jpg

What makes you think i did it?

[Falkata]

What makes you think i did it?

Because you´ve mistaken Norway for Sweden :D

[Murphy]

What makes you think i did it?

How does it feel Henry, knowing that those evil dark non-white Spaniards are more European then you?