The South Tyrol identity crisis: to live in Italy, but feel Austrian

[Kazimiera]

The South Tyrol identity crisis: to live in Italy, but feel Austrian

In Bolzano, an Italian mountain town on the Austrian border, most residents want independence from Italy and a right to speak German

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Education/Pix/pictures/2014/5/22/1400755012562/village-in-the-mountains-011.jpg

The first time I visited Italy's quaint town of Bolzano I thought I had landed by accident on the other side of the Alps – across the Austrian border, in Innsbruck.

And not just because of the medieval pointed arches, frescoed wooden chalets and strudel-scented air. People here speak in German and have a hard time replying in Italian. When they do, their strong Teutonic accent takes you aback.

They're Italian citizens but simply don't feel Italian. Bolzano's local authorities estimate that German is spoken by 75% of the 510,000 inhabitants of the Alto Adige region. Locals, however, call it by its original name – South Tyrol – and many wish it were independent.

Eva Klotz is a co-founder of the separatist party Süd-Tiroler Freiheit (South Tyrolean Freedom). She carries a yellow card in her wallet that says "German is my mother tongue".

Klotz says: "There are acts of racism each single day. Despite Italian and German both being official languages, I often bump into police officers who don't know German. They point at the Italian flag stitched on their uniform and require I speak Italian simply because we're in Italy. They don't even know that I have the right to speak in my mother tongue so I show them this card. It drives me mad. I call this linguistic imperialism."

Klotz, who wears long Tyrolese braids and dresses in traditional costume, recently launched a survey for a referendum on South Tyrol's right to self-determination. "It was a huge success: 90% of the 61,000 voters are in favour. In the future this could either translate into full independence from Italy or re-annexation to Austria," she says.

"My dream is to reunite with Austria. I'm an Italian citizen but don't belong to the Italian culture, state nor language. I have a Tyrolese identity. In my cultural backpack there's Schiller."

Klotz says there is a glorification of fascism in the region. "This year over €2bn have been allocated to fund the restyle of fascist architecture and symbols in Bolzano. It's a disgrace."

A sculpture of Mussolini on horseback welcomes visitors at the entrance of the local Palace of Justice. Thirty-five miles south of Bolzano, in the town of Trento, a statue of Dante – the father of Italian language – holds his hand up against the Austro-Germanic domination.

South Tyrol lies at the feet of the Dolomites and was once part of the wider Austro-Hungarian empire. It was annexed by Italy in 1918 yet despite Mussolini's attempt to "Italianise" the area by forbidding German and pushing through Italian vocabulary and culture, locals have fought for their freedom even through terrorist attacks.

Here, Italian speakers are a minority. Citizens' ID cards are different from the rest of Italy's as they are green and written in Italian and German. The local flag is red and white with an imperial Austrian-style eagle in the middle. Epiphany Day – a traditional Italian Christmas festivity when children's stockings are filled with sweets and toys – celebrates the coming of the three wise men and not of the Befana witch on her broomstick.

"There's always been a serious identity issue," says Marco Brunazzo from the department of sociology and social research at Trento University. "Schools are divided according to mother tongue so kids grow up in separate worlds. This has led to integration problems among the different communities."

Valentino Liberto, head of Bolzano's Green Youth Movement, says: "Teenagers tend to hang out with school friends from their own ethnic group. Even sports clubs and squads are divided according to linguistic belonging."

But not everyone in South Tyrol wants to be independent. Liberto talks about his own feelings of identity: "I feel neither 'only' Italian or 'only' German but a little bit of both. I feel South Tyrolese. Luckily and differently from other people my age, I have both German and Italian friends and we like to go clubbing all together."

Many parents in the region make their children do the so-called "linguistic slalom", German middle school then Italian high school so they get to learn both languages.

The distribution of public jobs is based on a strict quota system that takes into account ethnic belonging according to the census. This means that if a school hires an Italian-speaking teacher, the next hire must be a German-speaker.

Green party councillor Brigitte Foppa says: "At the beginning this was meant to protect the German minority, but now having reached a balance it's quite out of date and there's a backlash. Italians feel penalised today. The two linguistic groups have grown apart and there's a lack of reciprocal understanding that leads to prejudices."

Foppa comes from what she calls a "mixed" family. "I had an Italian upbringing and my husband is from Florence. My kids, on the other hand, feel they belong to neither linguistic group."

Bolzano has Italy's highest GDP per capita, according to figures from Italy's National Statistics Office. Locals move around on bikes even when it rains and are proud of showing-off to the world Ötzi the Iceman, a mummy found in the glaciers close to Austria.

"Bolzano's just one of the many cases in Italy of language and identity clashes in border cities,"Brunazzo says. "Europe's state-building has been continuous over the last centuries but if borders can easily be changed identity cannot".


Source: http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/may/30/south-tyrol-live-in-italy-feel-austrian

[Rudel]

Klotz says: "There are acts of racism each single day. Despite Italian and German both being official languages, I often bump into police officers who don't know German. They point at the Italian flag stitched on their uniform and require I speak Italian simply because we're in Italy. They don't even know that I have the right to speak in my mother tongue so I show them this card. It drives me mad. I call this linguistic imperialism."

Reminds me of these lesbians who want to wave their tits in the open to protest against patriarchal imperialism.

[Styrian Mujo]

They are Austrian Germans and belong to Austria.

[Newport]

They're Austro-Bavarians, I believe they currently have a large degree of autonomy and self-governance but don't see what's the problem with allowing them to secede. They're not Italians.

[blogen]

What identity crisis? Their identity is strong, they are Germans.

[Rudel]

Honestly if Italy can't get a bunch of mountain dwellers to speak properly, I don't know what can save the bloody country.

[Graus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSFpDPnKWMU

[Shuffle]

Well, first one has to know that Bozen (Bolzano) is the town with the least german-speaking community in South-Tyrol, about 75 % of the today inhabitants speak italian, which has different reasons and is the opposite of the rest of the country. Second you have to know that South-Tyrol isn't part of Italy just since 1920 and has been given to Italy through the Saint-Germain-Treaty out of strategical reasons, the population was never asked. In the 20s and 30s the south-tyroleans suffered a lot under italian fascism and in the end Hitler and Mussolini tried to resettle them to Germany, which wasn't done because of WWII. The Hitler-Mussolini-treaty brought major tensions into the south-tyrolean community, families were about to break, every family had to make an option, often the father wanted to opt for the resettlement in Germany and the mother or the grandfather not etc. it's still a trauma for the older generation. After the war many hoped that South-Tyrol could become austrian again, because Italy was on the losing side like Germany but the allieds decided otherwise. South-Tyrol just got some autonomy-rights which weren't taken too serious by the central government in Rome. So in the beginning 60s some young men committed some bomb attentats, this lead to tensions between Austria and Italy, Austria as protecting state of the South-Tyroleans brought the case to the UN after that the regulations of the autonomy were followed more accurately by the italian authorities and South-Tyrol today has rather good regulations, the south-tyrolean autonomy gives them more rights than any austrian Bundesland has. Many South-Tyroleans know that pretty good. Most of them speak italian pretty well and their economy is rather oriented to the italian market less to the german or austrian one, but young South-Tyroleans have open doors from Sicily to the danish border, in the times of an open Europe they can study either in Florence or in Cologne, which isn't that simple for North-Tyroleans, because those normally don't have the necessary knowledge of the italian language they just learn english at school and begin later to learn foreign languages than south-tyrolean children. So yes, everything has two sides, I don't know if the majority of the south-tyroleans would like to become part of the austrian Bundesland (province) Tyrol, they're culturally the same but they look at more than 80 years of separate history and South-Tyrol would have less rights than it has today, even if it would become an own Bundesland. The border is open, people are free to move around and if we should really want to bring up new borders? Additionally one has to say that alpine South-Tyrolean culture isn't that far away from alpine italian culture in Trentino (the former Welschtirol) and Friaul (Friuli) from what is seen as the main italian culture it is away however.

Btw schools are mostly separate there, there are german schools and italian ones, so teachers normally don't have to be bilingual, but if they are they get a higher wage. In the rest of the provincial authorities however there are strict regulations to reassure bilingualtiy of the employees, in the authorities of the central state, police was mentioned, like the railway or the post, it can happen that people are monolingual (italian).

[Styrian Mujo]

Honestly if Italy can't get a bunch of mountain dwellers to speak properly, I don't know what can save the bloody country.
Rudel you are crazier than me with your anti-Germanic agenda. I am starting to hate Latin-speaking Europeans even more just because of you.

[Rudel]

Rudel you are crazier than me with your anti-Germanic agenda. I am starting to hate Latin-speaking Europeans even more just because of you.
I don't have an anti-Germanic agenda, though I do have an anti-German one. Which is unrelated to the subject, since we're talking about Italy.

[Austo]

i think there should be a election.
And unification with Austria.

[Peyrol]

Well, who want them?

Nobody, they only cost us €€€ for their ''autonomie''...if they want to join Austra, they're welcome to leave. :laugh:

But with their birthrates and the maghrebi immigration, up to 2050 there wouldn't be any single boarisch tyroler left.

[Peyrol]

ADo you want back the whole North-East?

Many of them are quite nostalgic about your rule, as you can hear/red here :asd:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdVbroXe27E

[noricum]

It's important to remember that South Tiroleans and Italians in South Tirol are not this mentaly homogenous blocks they are often portraid as, mostly by people with an obvious agenda- there are zealots on both sides. I have met ethnic Italians who, without speaking a word of German identify as Tiroleans, South Tiroleans who identify themself as ethiic German Italians, Austrians, German or just about every thinkable and unthinkable combiation thereof. In my opinion elections of a sovereignity of south Tirol would not change anything of the status quo, it might not be perfect but a compromise most people can live with quite well.

@Peyrol

"Boarischer Tiroler" is received by Tiroleans like "English Scott" by Scotts! (Although it might by much more justified in a ethno/historical point of view though.)

[Arty]

My Opinion ist that south-Tyrolians who feels Austrian, take the best of it. When they come to Austria (Most of them to Study or being treated in Austrian (North-Tyrol f.e. Innsbruck) They say that they are from South-Tyrol. When the are in rest part of the world, they say (most of them) that they are from Italy.

[Smaug]

Alto Adige is Italian and will always be.

[Peyrol]

@Peyrol

"Boarischer Tiroler" is received by Tiroleans like "English Scott" by Scotts! (Although it might by much more justified in a ethno/historical point of view though.)


I know this, and that's why i used this word. Tyrolers are just part of the great boarisch continuum, not some kind of indigenous germanic ethnicity.


Btw, the interesting fact is that they are just germanized furlans, rhaeto-romanic people.

Rhaeto-romance languages (Furlan, ladin, romanisch) were much more geographically spreaded than nowadays

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Rhaeto-Romance_languages_now_and_1200_years_ago..png

[HamburgPunk]

there is no crisis, south tyroleans stay where they are

[Ulla]

They're Austro-Bavarians, I believe they currently have a large degree of autonomy and self-governance but don't see what's the problem with allowing them to secede. They're not Italians.

Italians or not, South Tyroleans receive a lot of money from the Italian government and they enjoy considerable autonomy, autonomy that neither Austria or Germany will never guarantee them. Italy is one of the few countries in Europe to fully recognize the rights of historical linguistic minorities.

Despite their proclamations of independence, South Tyroleans are not doing anything concrete to leave Italy, because the situation is perfect for them and have many advantages in being between Italy and Austria.

They are aware: better for them to be the extreme north of Italy with their autonomy than the south of the German-speaking world without their autonomy.

[Ulla]

My Opinion ist that south-Tyrolians who feels Austrian, take the best of it. When they come to Austria (Most of them to Study or being treated in Austrian (North-Tyrol f.e. Innsbruck) They say that they are from South-Tyrol. When the are in rest part of the world, they say (most of them) that they are from Italy.

As matter of fact, they don't really want to be under Austria state.

[Borna]

Tyrol is historical German land. Terms "Austrian" is nothing but regional division, not national!
Tyrolers are German!

[LightHouse89]

Honestly if Italy can't get a bunch of mountain dwellers to speak properly, I don't know what can save the bloody country.

Seems German barbarian pride is more popular than flamboyant Latin :p

[Ulla]

Tyrol is historical German land. Terms "Austrian" is nothing but regional division, not national!
Tyrolers are German!

Another Slavic servant of the German cause.

Do I remember you what's the meaning of Slav? :)

[LightHouse89]

It's important to remember that South Tiroleans and Italians in South Tirol are not this mentaly homogenous blocks they are often portraid as, mostly by people with an obvious agenda- there are zealots on both sides. I have met ethnic Italians who, without speaking a word of German identify as Tiroleans, South Tiroleans who identify themself as ethiic German Italians, Austrians, German or just about every thinkable and unthinkable combiation thereof. In my opinion elections of a sovereignity of south Tirol would not change anything of the status quo, it might not be perfect but a compromise most people can live with quite well.

@Peyrol

"Boarischer Tiroler" is received by Tiroleans like "English Scott" by Scotts! (Although it might by much more justified in a ethno/historical point of view though.)

There is such thing as English scots they are called Lowland Scots and are very pro British and anti Scottish Independence. Also the Northern Irish are really of Anglo-Saxon origin.

[LightHouse89]

Tyrol is historical German land. Terms "Austrian" is nothing but regional division, not national!
Tyrolers are German!

If they want it agreed they should be annexed to Austria.

[Borna]

Another Slavic servant of the German cause.

Do I remember you what's the meaning of Slave? :)

First of all, gypsy like you should not address me.
Second, theory of Slavs-Slave is debunked ages ago.

Croatia should give teaching to Tyroleans how to get rid of your pest!

[Ulla]

Seems German barbarian pride is more popular than flamboyant Latin :p

Until will not be completed the turkification of proud German barbarians. :)

[Ulla]

First of all, gypsy like you should not address me.
Second, theory of Slavs-Slave is debunked ages ago.

Croatia should give teaching to Tyroleans how to get rid of your pest!

LOL! The Slavic terror! Ahahahha.

[Ulla]

If they want it agreed they should be annexed to Austria.

They don't really want.

[Borna]

http://austrianfamilyhistory.org/images/map_austro-hungarian_empire_1914.gif

[Ulla]

...

Ehi Slavic, look at this. Austro-Hungarian Empire include also Patagonia and Siberia.

http://static.bbc.co.uk/earthscience/images/ic/640x360/surface_and_interior/supercontinent.jpg

[Austo]

As matter of fact, they don't really want to be under Austria state.

thats why so many of them moved to North tyrol.

[Ulla]

thats why so many of them moved to North tyrol.

Your statement means nothing, and it's not even true.

They usually went to Innsbruck for German-speaking University, but in 1997 It has been founded the Free University of Bozen-Bolzano, where lectures and seminars are held in German and Italian.

[Austo]

if you are trying to teach me about south tyrolean People, you are at the wrong adress, because i know People from south tyrol.
If there ever will be a election for this Kind of Thing, the decision will be absolutely clear.

[Ulla]

if you are trying to teach me about south tyrolean People, you are at the wrong adress, because i know People from south tyrol.
If there ever will be a election for this Kind of Thing, the decision will be absolutely clear.

Oh, sorry. Austo lives in Quebec but knows Tyrolean People. Wow. You really impress me. :picard1:

[Borna]

What is this gypsy speaking ?
Tyrolers want so much to live in Italy ?

Really ?

http://lana.suedtiroler-freiheit.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/S%C3%BCdtirol_ist_nicht_Italien.jpg

[Kiyant]

Gypsy because she disagrees with you?
Talk about not having any argument besides "GERMAN STRONK"

[Peyrol]

Gypsy because she disagrees with you?
Talk about not having any argument besides "GERMAN STRONK"

Maybe having kicked out some hapsburgic asses in 1859 and in 1915-1918 left many people butthurted.

[Wolf]

Honestly if Italy can't get a bunch of mountain dwellers to speak properly, I don't know what can save the bloody country.

At least, they are better off than their Alsatian relatives in France.



Alto Adige is Italian and will always be.

"Alto Adige"? Never heard of it.



Italians or not, South Tyroleans receive a lot of money from the Italian government and they enjoy considerable autonomy, autonomy that neither Austria or Germany will never guarantee them.

Not to mention the fact, that South Tyrol is the richest Italian region after Lombardy.

[Peyrol]

What is this gypsy speaking ?
Tyrolers want so much to live in Italy ?

Really ?

http://lana.suedtiroler-freiheit.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/S%C3%BCdtirol_ist_nicht_Italien.jpg

A croatian who call a french girl ''gypsy''...interesting.

[Peyrol]

Not to mention the fact, that South Tyrol is the richest Italian region after Lombardy.

The funny thing is that Lombardy send all their taxes to Rome, altoatesini keep 100% of the taxes to their land, plus many millions of € of statal funding because they're an ethnic minority.

[Borna]

A croatian who call a french girl ''gypsy''...interesting.

I mean it in pejorative therm, never seen her picture nor i care.
Italy will be torn apart, such country has no reasons to exist, economic and cultural gap between north and south is too big.

[Rudel]

At least, they are better of than their Alsatian relatives in France.
Alsatians are fine (there is some linguistic militantism, but nowhere as obnoxious as this), and not relatives.

Honestly if Germans want other peoples' shit, they should actually take up arms and try invading instead of whining about ethnic rights on TA.

[Wolf]

The funny thing is that Lombardy send all their taxes to Rome, altoatesini keep 100% of the taxes to their land, plus many millions of € of statal funding because they're an ethnic minority.

Nonetheless, South Tyrol is not a land of milk and honey and North Tyrol is still better off.



Alsatians are fine (there is some linguistic militantism, but nowhere as obnoxious as this), and not relatives.

I've got the impression you really believe this.



Honestly if Germans want other peoples' shit, they should actually take up arms and try invading instead of whining about ethnic rights on TA.

:rolleyes:

[Peyrol]

I mean it in pejorative therm, never seen her picture nor i care.
Italy will be torn apart, such country has no reasons to exist, economic and cultural gap between north and south is too big.

She maybe have used '''rude'' and hard words, but her concept is another...basically, into the italian state (yes i agree that a non-federal Italy is senseless...the situation of our internal statal organization is abslutely weird) sudtirolers are some kind of ''protect and chosen people'' because they're authonomous in all their decisions....into the Austrian state they will be nothing more than another lander.
In 2014, people use more economical reason than ethnonationalism, so...

[Peyrol]

Nonetheless, South Tyrol is not the land of milk and honey and North Tyrol is still better off.

Except San Marino and Monaco, in the whole southern Europe there isn't a ''land of milk and money''.

[Smaug]

"Alto Adige"? Never heard of it.


Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trentino-Alto_Adige/Südtirol

[Wolf]

Except San Marino and Monaco, in the whole southern Europe there isn't a ''land of milk and money''.

Northern Europe isn't a paradise, too.



Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trentino-Alto_Adige/Südtirol


During French control of the region, it was called officially Haut Adige (literally "High Adige", Italian: "Alto Adige"; German: "Hochetsch") in order to avoid any reference to the historical County of Tyrol.

[Peyrol]

Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trentino-Alto_Adige/Südtirol

It was a term created by venetian fascist during the first years of the '20s, when local venetic fascism tried (and partially reached) an italianization of the region, filling the land with calabrese, sicilian and even venetian colonists.

Btw, during hapsburgic rule of the whole Norteast, they did the same with Trentino (trentine people are just mountanhard venetians), using the name Welschtirol

[Ulla]

What is this gypsy speaking ?
Tyrolers want so much to live in Italy ?

Really

A Slavish-Croat pretending to be Germanic. You are obviously another self-hater.

The rest I don't trying anymore to explain to you, you are a complete waste of time.

[Ulla]

Except San Marino and Monaco, in the whole southern Europe there isn't a ''land of milk and money''.

Except some tax haven, for sure.

[Ulla]

A croatian who call a french girl ''gypsy''...interesting.

And pretends to be German.

Think that Freud and Jung would be excited by this textbook case of self-hater.

[caviezel]

originally the province of Bozen was 96% german and 4% italian with italians being in Ortisei and Badia. dividing Ladins from Italians is like dividing Kashubians from Polish or Ruthenians from Ukrainians or Flemish from Dutch. more like from northern italians but for the purpose of this discussion I wouldn't go into further details to simplify things.
you just need to know they were labeled as italians under the Austrian Empire.

[LightHouse89]

A croatian who call a french girl ''gypsy''...interesting.

What is amazing about the French is that the Franks and Romans were their masters for a long time....Now despite the French thinking the Franks were trojans [a lie created by french people] they lived under German rule for a long time. They will never admit this but claim the other way around [typical frog arrogance]. The Majority of french people today are most likely a creole of gaulish and northern african...except Normans and Bretons... most of France is very woggish :p

[LightHouse89]

Until will not be completed the turkification of proud German barbarians. :)

The next time Germans-Germanics invade latin contries we shall save some spots in the gas chambers for them and make sure we wont forget to leave enough room. :cool: We will have plenty of room and plenty of trains to bring them there :p


Gauls are peasants...and I would be willing to bet your ancestors are peasants. Hmm.....lets see back to indentured servitude or gas chambers the Latin-Gaul's choice :thumb001:

[LightHouse89]

http://austrianfamilyhistory.org/images/map_austro-hungarian_empire_1914.gif

reform the Holy Roman Empire [excluding Moorish New Algeria ahem France]. :p

[noricum]

I know this, and that's why i used this word. Tyrolers are just part of the great boarisch continuum, not some kind of indigenous germanic ethnicity.

I agree, but when tey understand themself as a destinctive ethnicity one should respect that.


Btw, the interesting fact is that they are just germanized furlans, rhaeto-romanic people.

Noone disagrees with that. But as you say they where germanised as the rhaetians where romanised and some unkown population in the mist of history was rhaetianised etc....
Some Tiroleans might even use this in order to seperate themself from Bavarians to some degree.


Rhaeto-romance languages (Furlan, ladin, romanisch) were much more geographically spreaded than nowadays

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Rhaeto-Romance_languages_now_and_1200_years_ago..png

Just as you say: they where. Only 500m from my place in Kufstein, Tirol Bajuwarian Reihengräber dating no later than 530AD where found, and much of eastern Austria was Slavic by 620AD. Vulgar Latin was still used for some time, but how on earth could this map be used to claim land today when it doesn't reflect the ethnic makeup of today the slightest bit?

[Rudel]

What is amazing about the French is that the Franks and Romans were their masters for a long time....
Roman and Frank was what the French called themselves. It's like saying the Greeks were ruled by Helens and Romans :picard1:


Now despite the French thinking the Franks were trojans [a lie created by french people]
A legend originated in the pseudo-Frédégaire and probably typical of the VIIth/VIIIth century, tailored after Classical themes, but whatever.


they lived under German rule for a long time.
1940-1944 ?

Franks != German. The self-designation of German came around as a reaction to the Frankish administration collapsing in the East towards the end of the Carolingian dynasty.


Gauls are peasants...and I would be willing to bet your ancestors are peasants. Hmm.....lets see back to indentured servitude or gas chambers the Latin-Gaul's choice :thumb001:
Protip : if your ancestors weren't peasants, you're most likely Jewish.

[Austo]

Oh, sorry. Austo lives in Quebec but knows Tyrolean People. Wow. You really impress me. :picard1:

you do know that everybody can choose the flag he wants without actually being from there? :)

[Smaug]

Northern Europe isn't a paradise, too.

See. Now you've heard of it.

[Peyrol]

What is amazing about the French is that the Franks and Romans were their masters for a long time....Now despite the French thinking the Franks were trojans [a lie created by french people] they lived under German rule for a long time. They will never admit this but claim the other way around [typical frog arrogance]. The Majority of french people today are most likely a creole of gaulish and northern african...except Normans and Bretons... most of France is very woggish :p

Yeah that's true unfortunately...the city of my paternal grandfather now is more arab than Casablanca itself...

[Ulla]

Franks means "free man". The first Germanic tribes to establish good relations with the Romans (Gallo-Romans).
The result is the birth of France. Sorry, but the world would certainly be a rougher place without France.

According to Julius von Schlosser, the Franks were the Germanic people most intellectually gifted.

God bless the Franks. :)

[Peyrol]

I agree, but when tey understand themself as a destinctive ethnicity one should respect that.



Noone disagrees with that. But as you say they where germanised as the rhaetians where romanised and some unkown population in the mist of history was rhaetianised etc....
Some Tiroleans might even use this in order to seperate themself from Bavarians to some degree.



Just as you say: they where. Only 500m from my place in Kufstein, Tirol Bajuwarian Reihengräber dating no later than 530AD where found, and much of eastern Austria was Slavic by 620AD. Vulgar Latin was still used for some time, but how on earth could this map be used to claim land today when it doesn't reflect the ethnic makeup of today the slightest bit?

No no i'm not saying this...i'm only saying that some old claim that tyrolers are just descendents of bavarian or other austrian colonists is outdated and senseless...there was simply a cultural replacement.

[Ulla]

you do know that everybody can choose the flag he wants without actually being from there? :)

Really? :)

[Ulla]

What is amazing about the French is that the Franks and Romans were their masters for a long time....Now despite the French thinking the Franks were trojans [a lie created by french people] they lived under German rule for a long time. They will never admit this but claim the other way around [typical frog arrogance]. The Majority of french people today are most likely a creole of gaulish and northern african...except Normans and Bretons... most of France is very woggish :p

Are you really American from US?

[Rudel]

Yeah that's true unfortunately...
Nope. It's a pile of horse shit. I invite you to visit the country, and I'd even pay you a glass of rosé, before getting paranoid (though I know you already see Maghrebis everywhere).

[Peyrol]

Nope. It's a pile of horse shit. I invite you to visit the country, and I'd even pay you a glass of rosé, before getting paranoid (though I know you see Maghrebis everywhere).

Last time in Nice i felt like i was in Oran or Fez, sincerely. The area near the station was simply disgusting.

...ok, event Turin is filled with maghrebi, but not so filled.

[Ulla]

Nope. It's a pile of horse shit. I invite you to visit the country, and I'd even pay you a glass of rosé, before getting paranoid (though I know you already see Maghrebis everywhere).

I agree, it's a pile of horse shit.

[Rudel]

Last time in Nice i felt like i was in Oran or Fez, sincerely. The area near the station was simply disgusting.

...ok, event Turin is filled with maghrebi, but not so filled.
Some cities, especially on the coast, have an important share of immigrants. But claiming that the French are 'a creole of gaulish and northern african' is Stormfront level of stupidity. It's like claiming that the Germans are Turks because you've seen some neighbourhood of Hamburg.

[Peyrol]

Some cities, especially on the coast, have an important share of immigrants. But claiming that the French are 'a creole of gaulish and northern african' is Sotmrfront level of stupidity. It's like claiming that the Germans are Turks because you've seen some neighbourhood of Hamburg.

I didn't quote this part, only the part about the maghrebi ethnic replacement of a good portion of the Midi.

[noricum]

No no i'm not saying this...i'm only saying that some old claim that tyrolers are just descendents of bavarian or other austrian colonists is outdated and senseless...there was simply a cultural replacement.

A cultural change brought in by Bavarian settlers and to a much smaller degree Alamannic settlers in Außerfern. They didn't settle everywhere in the same numbers and some areas remained romanic for quite some time while others where clearly Bajuvarian. But as a matter of fact Bajuvarian settlers came in and stayed, Tiroleans speak German for a reason.

[Shuffle]

A cultural change brought in by Bavarian settlers and to a much smaller degree Alamannic settlers in Außerfern. They didn't settle everywhere in the same numbers and some areas remained romanic for quite some time while others where clearly Bajuvarian. But as a matter of fact Bajuvarian settlers came in and stayed, Tiroleans speak German for a reason.

But romance languages once were spoken up to the Danube, even in the year 800 there were still living romance speaking people in Regensburg (Ratisbona), and the -zell and Walchenorte (places containing the particle -zell or Walch(en)) give proof of the existance of romance speaking people in this area, also in the Rhineland there were still romance speaking areas in the middle-ages, so bavarians south-germans what are they? Modern research tells us that they're kind of creole population, too. There were some migrating people from god knows where and there were the indigenous rhaeto-roman populations, which weren't replaced but just got admixed, there's a romance substrate in south-german dialects and even the upper-german vowel shifts may have some roots in romance-speaking populations becoming germanic-speaking (just suspections at the moment not finally proven). Also genetically South-Germans tend to cluster with french more than with north-germans, which cluster more with dutch and some northern-european people. In my eyes this points out that alpine populations have pretty much in common much more than they have not in common, whatever damn language they speak today!

[noricum]

@ Shuffle

The "Walchenorte" where inhabitated by culturally! romanised Celt or Rhaetians, depending on the area you look at. Romans also lived there either as merchants, military personnel or political administrator and to a very small degree they sure have mixed. But it wasn't thousands of Italic farmers coming up north to settle in a less hospitable land, why should they? Ex roman soldiers did though, as they where given farmland in annexed areas after having finished 25 years of military service, and they probably intermarried with local women. But they where of about any thinkable ethic origin, often Germanics at least in the late years of the roman empire. In 488AD Odoaker "evacuated" noricum which means those who understood themself as Romans, left the country while the romanised Celts remained at some places which later became known as "Walchenorte".

There sure was, and to a smaller degree is, a common substratum of Alpine dwellers in what is now Northern Italy, Western Austria, Southern Switherland and the Alpine regions of France. On the other hand modern genetics also shows us that the Alps are quite a genetic devide today. Also remember that of central europe in the broader sense has seen both Celtic and Germanic settlement, also actind as a sort of equalizer, just like a partly common or similar substratum.

Further more one should realise how stupid it is to understand ethnicities from early written history as idealised, absolutely homogenous, people. At the end of the day they are also just a result of a fusion of different ethnic groups in earlier times.

[Shuffle]

My point is that there was a population-continuum in the alpine regions not that Middle-Italians were massively settling there, they weren't but there wasn't an empty space populated by germanic tribes one day, this also didn't happen, there was some movement and certainly a language-change but there was also a population-continuum and since the same celtic populations settled in the whole alpine region and in France there's clustering from South-West Germans (including probably Western-Austrians), Swiss and French, North-Italians don't cluster that much, but one has to admit that the north-italian samples mostly don't come from the extreme north, the alpine regions I'd guess many of them would also come out in this cluster, and probably it's more some events in Italy that differs North-Italian from South-Germany and France, than events in France and Germany (some kind of West-Asian migration into Italy or something).

[Peyrol]

My point is that there was a population-continuum in the alpine regions not that Middle-Italians were massively settling there, they weren't but there wasn't an empty space populated by germanic tribes one day, this also didn't happen, there was some movement and certainly a language-change but there was also a population-continuum and since the same celtic populations settled in the whole alpine region and in France there's clustering from South-West Germans (including probably Western-Austrians), Swiss and French, North-Italians don't cluster that much, but one has to admit that the north-italian samples mostly don't come from the extreme north, the alpine regions I'd guess many of them would also come out in this cluster, and probably it's more some events in Italy that differs North-Italian from South-Germany and France, than events in France and Germany (some kind of West-Asian migration into Italy or something).

We are so ''far away'' from France and Germany than i (Peyrol) have recent (= not before 1800) bavarian and occitan/oil arpitàn ancestors...

Specifically, Piemont-Savoie was this for centuries


http://bornes.frontieres.free.fr/carte_duche_de_savoie/Savoie.gif

[wrongway]

South Tyrol = Austria.
Period

[Peyrol]

South Tyrol = Austria.
Period

That's would be a very great thing.
At least we haven't to pay a lot of moneys for their special ''finanziamenti per le minoranze etno-linguistiche storiche' (special funding).

[Ctwentysevenj]

I wonder if South Tyrolese would like to become an independent country, something Scotland will be voting later this year. With the South Tyrol, I suppose it has a well develop economy to support itself as an independent country. It would not be smallest country country in Europe. Excluding those micro countries like Monaco, San Marino, Andorra, and Liechtenstein , it more than twice the size of Luxembourg. Luxembourg is 2,586 Km2 and the South Tyrol is 7,400 km2.

[LightHouse89]

Some cities, especially on the coast, have an important share of immigrants. But claiming that the French are 'a creole of gaulish and northern african' is Stormfront level of stupidity. It's like claiming that the Germans are Turks because you've seen some neighbourhood of Hamburg.

What I find rather odd is the most conservative and gun hoe americans in my area are actually French Canadians..... just by voting patterns and observing the towns they are from is rather strange....not to mention I hear the French were the only westerners really oppose to homosexual marriage....causing riots and what not and protesting it...unlike UK or even most areas of America. But then again do the French have this liberal view of what is French to them? I mean by this their sense of nationalism that just anyone born there can be french or is this just a misconception I have? Actually on stormfront their is a french section or was.... no one is anti french...stormfront is more anti irish/albanian or bosnian more so than any other group of europeans.

I was being sarcastic but ever since news of those riots in france because of the arabs and north africans.....I am shocked the french allow such people to live in their country. But France does have that right wing party which is a good sign. Europe as a whole has been on the left for some time now....at least from our perspective here....which is not very hopeful. [sorry for sounding like an asshole before by the way.....I took my foolishness too far I dont actually hate french people....the language sounds funny but I do not hate any group of europeans really.]

[LightHouse89]

Yeah that's true unfortunately...the city of my paternal grandfather now is more arab than Casablanca itself...

True. My dad observed this when he went to france two summers ago....he was like I was in the middle east not europe. Alot of americans think europeans are insane for allowing that...at least they have the power to stop it..here we are turning increasinly multiracial....it is so bad there is zero meaning behind American....its not even a real ethnicity or nationality anymore. I have a laugh when some white nationalist in america tells me it means anything ebcause in 2014 anyone can be american.....since they changed the racial laws it ruined this country and that is well known here. I just think it is absolutely insane for europeans to do the same thing.

[Ulla]

I wonder if South Tyrolese would like to become an independent country, something Scotland will be voting later this year. With the South Tyrol, I suppose it has a well develop economy to support itself as an independent country. It would not be smallest country country in Europe. Excluding those micro countries like Monaco, San Marino, Andorra, and Liechtenstein , it more than twice the size of Luxembourg. Luxembourg is 2,586 Km2 and the South Tyrol is 7,400 km2.

If South Tyroleans really wanted it, they would have already done so. Italy has many flaws, but it is one of the few European countries that recognize linguistic minorities. And South Tyrol enjoys considerable autonomy and receives a lot of money from Italian state. Their political party is part of the coalition government at this time. I guess they prefer to be the extreme North of Italy than a Southern region of Austria. Moreover, no one forbids them from having cultural and trade relations with Austria. Personally I like very much South Tyrol.

[LightHouse89]

Are you really American from US?

Yes. I am just being sarcastic....and some what of an ass on purpose. I am not serious that Africans are native to Gaul :p However I just find the left in france to be as insane as the left is in America. Their anti-Nationalist views are very disturbing, here the meaning American is about as meaningless as the word christian. All you have to do to be American is walk across the border here and then your an American [after you claim asylum]. Its so bad here it has caused 'white flight', I read an article many upper class people here are basically leaving America to Europe [mostly older white people], because America is most places turning into a third world country. Maybe we will be the lamb of slaughter of the west with multiculturalism.

It is not working here just to let you know. I dont want to leave or live like a peasant in Europe so I would never leave but many are because they refuse to live with third world people who have zero values and do not respect our traditions here. Since the election of this monkey from the Congo here alot has been undone here and ruined so there is not much hope for America and its future I am affraid. I just think it is insane that many European countries want to follow down our path.....the rise of the right wing over there to me is a sign of hope. But here there is not much of any to look forward to.

[LightHouse89]

If South Tyroleans really wanted it, they would have already done so. Italy has many flaws, but it is one of the few European countries that recognize linguistic minorities. And South Tyrol enjoys considerable autonomy and receives a lot of money from Italian state. Their political party is part of the coalition government at this time. I guess they prefer to be the extreme North of Italy than a Southern region of Austria. Moreover, no one forbids them from having cultural and trade relations with Austria. Personally I like very much South Tyrol.

I dont think it would be wise for them economically to be by themselves....if they wish to be apart of Austria fine....if they wish to remain with Italy fine... how could they survive on their own? What resources do they have? Alaska would be a richer country if it breaks away because of their oil and other resources like gold hahaha.

[Fear Fiain]

Their identity is strong, they are Germans.

that's the crisis. EU can't have that, Isreal won't allow it.

[Ulla]

I dont think it would be wise for them economically to be by themselves....if they wish to be apart of Austria fine....if they wish to remain with Italy fine... how could they survive on their own? What resources do they have? Alaska would be a richer country if it breaks away because of their oil and other resources like gold hahaha.

South Tyroleans, or Altoatesini, are very wyse people. Ten years ago they founded a trilingual German-Italian-English public university in Bolzano/Bozen. So they aren't anymore forced to go to Innsbruck (Austria) to attend a German-speaking university.

Italy had a weak economic growth in the last years, but Northern Italy is still one of the richest macroregion of Europe. And South Tyroleans are perfectly placed in one of the richest European economic corridors.

http://jaymans.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/gross_domestic_product_gdp_per_inhabitant_in_purch asing_power_standard_pps_by_nuts_2-filled1.png

[Peyrol]

I dont think it would be wise for them economically to be by themselves....if they wish to be apart of Austria fine....if they wish to remain with Italy fine... how could they survive on their own? What resources do they have? Alaska would be a richer country if it breaks away because of their oil and other resources like gold hahaha.

Mh.....sudtiroler exportations? Apples, honey and apfelkuchen....as independent country, they will collapse in one week.

[LightHouse89]

South Tyroleans, or Altoatesini, are very wyse people. Ten years ago they founded a trilingual German-Italian-English public university in Bolzano/Bozen. So they aren't anymore forced to go to Innsbruck (Austria) to attend a German-speaking university.

Italy had a weak economic growth in the last years, but Northern Italy is still one of the richest macroregion of Europe. And South Tyroleans are perfectly placed in one of the richest European economic corridors.

http://jaymans.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/gross_domestic_product_gdp_per_inhabitant_in_purch asing_power_standard_pps_by_nuts_2-filled1.png

Here the only way we could survive alone is with what resources we have at our disposal....without resources we would be useless. Alaska and Texas could be their own countries because of their rich amount of resources, oil, shale, natural gas, coal etc...... Its probably much different in most of europe. But here without those resources, you would have zero foreign investment or people interested in being apart of your economy which would not allow us to be independent really.

Maybe Tyrol is just in the right place with economic growth and they do not need to be apart of greater Italy? I wonder how scotland would do on their own?

[LightHouse89]

Mh.....sudtiroler exportations? Apples, honey and apfelkuchen....as independent country, they will collapse in one week.

Hmm that is why I think the way I think about it. Resources you need to survive without many problems [doesnt mean your soceity would be rich though], but if my area of the country broke away I most certainly make it a tax haven for rich people....to get foreign rich people to invest and save in our banks.... that is one way of attracting people like flies and then try to get them to buy more from you and maybe own stuff.... it would just strike me as a more rational way of getting a better economy. Here we export lobsters all over the place. The last dictator of North Korea was getting private lobester shipments from Boston hahahaha.

[Peyrol]

Hmm that is why I think the way I think about it. Resources you need to survive without many problems [doesnt mean your soceity would be rich though], but if my area of the country broke away I most certainly make it a tax haven for rich people....to get foreign rich people to invest and save in our banks.... that is one way of attracting people like flies and then try to get them to buy more from you and maybe own stuff.... it would just strike me as a more rational way of getting a better economy. Here we export lobsters all over the place. The last dictator of North Korea was getting private lobester shipments from Boston hahahaha.

Vermont was already an independent state prior the annexation by the Continental Congress, right?

[LightHouse89]

Vermont was already an independent state prior the annexation by the Continental Congress, right?

Yes but the problem is they are so small they couldnt survive on their own and they isolated themselves. If you compare them lets say to the Confederacy they had more resources and potential interest from european powers and parts of asia. However in their end most european powers sided with the evil northern industrial states [which would later turn america into what it is today]... But Vermont was a very agricultural state, it has a small population but not much for resources to offer....now if all of new england broke away, it would have banks, exports now [most dairy stuff], apples [all across the USA they eat our macintosh apples], apple cider, lobersters, sea food, maritime shiping [alot of shipyards], tourism etc.....I know combined new engladn could survive but one lone state would be screwed because they do not have the resources to sustain themselves.

However states like Alaska and Texas alone could because of their natural resources like oil....which every one wants. Actually Alaska might break away from the Union in the future. The idea is very popular to them because they are tired of paying high taxes. The only reason the government is keeping it is for their military bases there [in case russia invades which most likely wont happen]. We have like two big air bases there and a large US Army base so it is a strategic place for us to be.

[Hithaeglir]

at least they have the power to stop it..here we are turning increasinly multiracial....

You are already multiracial and multiethnic.

[LightHouse89]

You are already multiracial and multiethnic.

who is? what are you a bird brain?

[Ulla]

Maybe Tyrol is just in the right place with economic growth and they do not need to be apart of greater Italy? I wonder how scotland would do on their own?

Maybe, or maybe not. In any case I'll respect their decisions, but honestly I don't see any signals that there will be something like that. The whole situation is much more nuanced. South Tyroleans have high standard of living, just as Northern Tyroleans (Austria) and Trentini (Italy). Why should they change? As an Italian I can go to Austria all the times I want. An Austrian can do the same.

[Hithaeglir]

who is? what are you a bird brain?

The USA.

[Ulla]

It's important to remember that South Tiroleans and Italians in South Tirol are not this mentaly homogenous blocks they are often portraid as, mostly by people with an obvious agenda- there are zealots on both sides. I have met ethnic Italians who, without speaking a word of German identify as Tiroleans, South Tiroleans who identify themself as ethiic German Italians, Austrians, German or just about every thinkable and unthinkable combiation thereof. In my opinion elections of a sovereignity of south Tirol would not change anything of the status quo, it might not be perfect but a compromise most people can live with quite well.

@Peyrol

"Boarischer Tiroler" is received by Tiroleans like "English Scott" by Scotts! (Although it might by much more justified in a ethno/historical point of view though.)

Great contribution from an Austrian. Thanks.

[Scandalf]

Hmm that is why I think the way I think about it. Resources you need to survive without many problems [doesnt mean your soceity would be rich though], but if my area of the country broke away I most certainly make it a tax haven for rich people....to get foreign rich people to invest and save in our banks.... that is one way of attracting people like flies and then try to get them to buy more from you and maybe own stuff.... it would just strike me as a more rational way of getting a better economy. Here we export lobsters all over the place. The last dictator of North Korea was getting private lobester shipments from Boston hahahaha.

Yummy! I used to live in Mass. I loved those lobsters!

[Shuffle]

Hmm that is why I think the way I think about it. Resources you need to survive without many problems [doesnt mean your soceity would be rich though], but if my area of the country broke away I most certainly make it a tax haven for rich people....to get foreign rich people to invest and save in our banks.... that is one way of attracting people like flies and then try to get them to buy more from you and maybe own stuff.... it would just strike me as a more rational way of getting a better economy. Here we export lobsters all over the place. The last dictator of North Korea was getting private lobester shipments from Boston hahahaha.


He knows not what he's talking about (ok most Italians like to talk without knowing what they're talking, they're famous for that, so yes... *lol*) South-Tyrol, like South-Germany, Austria and Switzerland has many small-and-medium-companies, especially in machinery, there are also some hidden champions there, and even if they'd split of Italy they'd probably still be part of the EU and smaller countries often did better in this frame, so it is no longer an economic advantage to be a part of a bigger-scale-economy, additionally there goes one of the main european traffic-routes through South-Tyrol, and the Brenner is one of the most important (if not the most important) alpine pass, this was one of the main reasons why Italy once occupied South-Tyrol, they certainly wouldn't die of hunger, they could still take some of the bavarian milk the Italians are importing from Bavaria to produce their italian cheeses, since they don't produce hardly any themselves! :-D

[Ulla]

He knows not what he's talking about (ok most Italians like to talk without knowing what they're talking, they're famous for that, so yes... *lol*) South-Tyrol, like South-Germany, Austria and Switzerland has many small-and-medium-companies, especially in machinery, there are also some hidden champions there, and even if they'd split of Italy they'd probably still be part of the EU and smaller countries often did better in this frame, so it is no longer an economic advantage to be a part of a bigger-scale-economy, additionally there goes one of the main european traffic-routes through South-Tyrol, and the Brenner is one of the most important (if not the most important) alpine pass, this was one of the main reasons why Italy once occupied South-Tyrol, they certainly wouldn't die of hunger, they could still take some of the bavarian milk the Italians are importing from Bavaria to produce their italian cheeses, since they don't produce hardly any themselves! :-D

Get a life, third Reich is over.

[Scandalf]

He knows not what he's talking about (ok most Italians like to talk without knowing what they're talking, they're famous for that, so yes... *lol*) South-Tyrol, like South-Germany, Austria and Switzerland has many small-and-medium-companies, especially in machinery, there are also some hidden champions there, and even if they'd split of Italy they'd probably still be part of the EU and smaller countries often did better in this frame, so it is no longer an economic advantage to be a part of a bigger-scale-economy, additionally there goes one of the main european traffic-routes through South-Tyrol, and the Brenner is one of the most important (if not the most important) alpine pass, this was one of the main reasons why Italy once occupied South-Tyrol, they certainly wouldn't die of hunger, they could still take some of the bavarian milk the Italians are importing from Bavaria to produce their italian cheeses, since they don't produce hardly any themselves! :-D

They produce milk thanks to EU retarded laws!

[Scandalf]

They produce milk thanks to EU retarded laws!

They DON'T produce milk thanks to EU retarded laws!

[Ulla]

They DON'T produce milk thanks to EU retarded laws!

From Bariloche in Argentina he controls the whole situation, you know. Next stage he will explain us how EU works.

[Scandalf]

From Bariloche in Argentina he controls the whole situation, you know. Next stage he will explain us how EU works.

Non ho mai capito la logica delle quote latte...

[Peyrol]

He knows not what he's talking about (ok most Italians like to talk without knowing what they're talking, they're famous for that, so yes... *lol*) South-Tyrol, like South-Germany, Austria and Switzerland has many small-and-medium-companies, especially in machinery, there are also some hidden champions there, and even if they'd split of Italy they'd probably still be part of the EU and smaller countries often did better in this frame, so it is no longer an economic advantage to be a part of a bigger-scale-economy, additionally there goes one of the main european traffic-routes through South-Tyrol, and the Brenner is one of the most important (if not the most important) alpine pass, this was one of the main reasons why Italy once occupied South-Tyrol, they certainly wouldn't die of hunger, they could still take some of the bavarian milk the Italians are importing from Bavaria to produce their italian cheeses, since they don't produce hardly any themselves! :-D


Said by someone who think that Europe is the one showed on Hollywood or on Stronzfront lol. :lol:

If you are an ethnic german i'm Mr. Bottomtooth. You must be some retarded nazi eastern european immigrant.

[Ulla]

Non ho mai capito la logica delle quote latte...

E figurati allora se l'ha capita uno che sta nelle pampas.

[Peyrol]

E figurati allora se l'ha capita uno che sta nelle pampas.

He isn't argentine, his IP is german.

[Ulla]

He isn't argentine, his IP is german.

Controlla meglio, secondo me è Bariloche.

[Peyrol]

Controlla meglio, secondo me è Bariloche.

No he isn't it's just a retarded guy who live in (1940) Austria.

[Corvus]

In Bolzano the majority speak Italian
in smaller towns and villages its a different story

anyway this article does only show a one dimensional side
ok there are seperatists but also a lot of people who feel 100% Italian
also I know that if anything, people want an own nation: South Tyrol or connection to Germany
only a small minortiy want to unite with Austria

[Peyrol]

In Bolzano the majority speak Italian
in smaller towns and villages its a different story

anyway this article does only show a one dimensional side
ok there are seperatists but also a lot of people who feel 100% Italian
also I know that if anything, people want an own nation: South Tyrol or connection to Germany
only a small minortiy want to unite with Austria

I think that your country, nowadays, have greater problem than an anachronistic annexation of 400,000 tyroler boarisch people (+150,000 italians and romanisch), don't you, Corvus?

[Corvus]

I think that your country, nowadays, have greater problem than an anachronistic annexation of 400,000 tyroler boarisch people (+150,000 italians and romanisch), don't you, Corvus?

Yes sure its not an issue in Austria, the status quo will remain.
There is no political incentive to reconnect South Tyrol.

As mentioned South Tyroleans in general don`t identify as Austrians.
Only a small minority which often catches the attention of the media

[Peyrol]

Anyway since our country is destined to a re-balkanization after 153 years, if you want you can take all our Northeast

there are still hapsburgic nostalgic there :lol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdVbroXe27E

[Peyrol]

Yes sure its not an issue in Austria, the status quo will remain.
There is no political incentive to reconnect South Tyrol.

As mentioned South Tyroleans in general don`t identify as Austrians.
Only a small minority which often catches the attention of the media

Yep that's the truth.

[Corvus]

Well, who want them?

Nobody, they only cost us €€€ for their ''autonomie''...if they want to join Austra, they're welcome to leave. :laugh:

But with their birthrates and the maghrebi immigration, up to 2050 there wouldn't be any single boarisch tyroler left.

Thats a good point, in Bolzano there is an unbelievable high rate of immigrants mostly from North Africa
Its about a 1/3 of the population
When shopping you can get the impression you are on a Moroccan bazar than an Alpine German market

[Ctwentysevenj]

Mh.....sudtiroler exportations? Apples, honey and apfelkuchen....as independent country, they will collapse in one week.

Iveco have one their largest truck factories in Bolzano. It is the Iveco military vehicle division based in Bolzano.

[Peyrol]

Iveco have one their largest truck factories in Bolzano. It is the Iveco military vehicle division based in Bolzano.

Yes but the Iveco is a piemontese company.

[Foxy]

They are a special status region, they are autonomous in 90% of decision and they have the bilinguism. So wtf do you want?
Italian government also pays a lot of money on them, those parassites. They can go back to Austria, if only Austria wanted them.

[Virtuous]

Kaz, you potentially started a Regional war.

[Corvus]

They are a special status region, they are autonomous in 90% of decision and they have the bilinguism. So wtf do you want?
Italian government also pays a lot of money on them, those parassites. They can go back to Austria, if only Austria wanted them.

I do not think parassites is a fitting term. Bear in mind that 80% of South Tyroleans are proud Italians.
They are also a very fragmented population regarding ethnicity and political orientation.

[Peyrol]

Kaz, you potentially started a Regional war.

It would be another disastrous germanic defeat, as in 1918

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vittorio_Veneto

[Wolf]

It would be another disastrous germanic defeat, as in 1918

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vittorio_Veneto

:picard1:

[Peyrol]

:picard1:

Yes it was a disastrous hapsburgic defeat by us, the final hit to the shaky austrian empire.


...ok, ''germanic'' wasn't a proper term for the event, but the meaning is the same.

[Zincite]

Alto Adige is Italian and will always be.

I think you meant Südtirol is Boarisch and will always be?


Alsatians are fine (there is some linguistic militantism, but nowhere as obnoxious as this), and not relatives.


You can't be serious.

[Shuffle]

Said by someone who think that Europe is the one showed on Hollywood or on Stronzfront lol. :lol:

If you are an ethnic german i'm Mr. Bottomtooth. You must be some retarded nazi eastern european immigrant.[/QUOT

Interresting, but you should go to your registrar's office and let your name change, accidentally I am as South-German as one can be, nothing not South-German, not even North-German traces back to the 17th century, not that I would really care, but you wanted to bet. I'd say I know Europe quite well, being a frequent traveller, so wrong again, but like I said, Italians like to talk just for talking something, we don't take you really serious but we still like you very, very much! :eek:

[QUOTE=Zincite;2768218]I think you meant Südtirol is Boarisch and will always be?



You can't be serious.

Ohhhh, gefährliches Parkett, Südtirol war bloß unter Napoleon mal boarisch und da warn's alles andere wie glücklich die Tiroler, so Andreas Hofer und so, ok unser Kine war auch ned wirklich nett zu ihnen, dafür hat man uns nach den napoleonischen Kriegen mit Franken bestraft! :cool:

[Peyrol]

Said by someone who think that Europe is the one showed on Hollywood or on Stronzfront lol. :lol:

If you are an ethnic german i'm Mr. Bottomtooth. You must be some retarded nazi eastern european immigrant.

Interresting, but you should go to your registrar's office and let your name change, accidentally I am as South-German as one can be, nothing not South-German, not even North-German traces back to the 17th century, not that I would really care, but you wanted to bet. I'd say I know Europe quite well, being a frequent traveller, so wrong again, but like I said, Italians like to talk just for talking something, we don't take you really serious but we still like you very, very much! :eek:

Well, i meet about 50 germans daily in real life for studies and about the same here on the net and you're the first i met with outdated pangermanist theories.
That's all, sooo strange...