Cro-Magnon I or R1b ?

[Third]

According Eupedia Cro-Magnon man was actually I, and R1 arrived much later, about 2000 years ago with western Indoeuropean peoples. So, celtic, italic, germanic and latin correspond to them. But I cannot find the scientific sources supporting this theory.

R1= Indoeuropeans.

I= Cro-Magnon man, so Scandinavians and balkanians are the least indoeuropeans?

http://www.targetmap.com/ThumbnailsReports/8145_THUMB_IPAD.jpg
.

[blogen]

According Eupedia Cro-Magnon man was actually I, and R1 arrived much later, about 2000 years ago with western Indoeuropean peoples. So, celtic, italic, germanic and latin correspond to them. But I cannot find the scientific sources supporting this theory.

We have very few mesolithic European Y-DNA:

Loschbour, 6220-5990 BC
I2a1b* - (L178+, M423+, P37.2+, L460+, M438+, L68+, P38+, M170+, M359.2-, L161.1-, L621-)

Motala, 6000 BC
Motala 2: I* - (P38+ , U179+ , L41+, M253-, L37-)
Motala 3: I2 - (L68+, M258+, U179+, L181-, L417-)
Motala 9: I* - (P38+, P40-)
Motala 12: I2a1b* - L178+, M423+, P37.2+, L460+, L68+, M170+, M258+, U179+, M359.2-, L621-)

La Braña. 5,000 BC
C1a2 - (M130, M216, P255, P260, V183, V199, V232, V20)

And yes, the haplogroup R1 is a Middle-Eastern haplogroup and arrived into Europe with the neolithic newcomers. Except in Eastern Europe/Central Asia, where maybe was a mesolithic migration too.


R1= Indoeuropeans.
I= Cro-Magnon man, so Scandinavians and balkanians are the least indoeuropeans?

It's more complicated, but basically yes.

[Linebacker]

CM is alot stronger in the Balkans than Scandinavia.

[Dombra]

I is über mensch cro magnid inded :D

[blogen]

CM is alot stronger in the Balkans than Scandinavia.

The Balkan I2 was presumably a Near Eastern origin haplogroup from the Anatolian-Caucasian LGM refugium and arrived into the Balkan with the neolithic farmers.

[Linebacker]

The Balkan I2 was presumably a Near Eastern origin haplogroup from the Anatolian-Caucasian LGM refugium and arrived into the Balkan with the neolithic farmers.

By just looking at the Cro-magnon's reconstructionhttp://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/seperated-at-birth.jpg you can see how the facial features match with most balkanites.

[Insuperable]

By just looking at the Cro-magnon's reconstructionhttp://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/seperated-at-birth.jpg you can see how the facial features match with most balkanites.

There are other Cro-magnon reconstructions, no need for cherry picking. If Mesolithic Europeans were just a continuation of Paleolithic Europeans Agassi or you would have a little in common with them since genetically we know to whom they would be the closest to.

[Linebacker]

There are other Cro-magnon reconstructions, no need for cherry picking. If Mesolithic Europeans were just a continuation of Paleolithic Europeans Agassi or you would have a little in common with them since genetically we know to whom they would be the closest to.

Post some other reconstructions.

[blogen]

By just looking at the Cro-magnon's reconstructionhttp://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/seperated-at-birth.jpg you can see how the facial features match with most balkanites.

No.

[Insuperable]

Post some other reconstructions.

Type Cro-magnon reconstructions on google and look for pics. As I have said what does it matter when Balkan people genetically have little in common with Mesolithic Europeans (with peaks in NW Balkans up to 30%), not to mention with Cro-magnons?

[Fakirbakir]

"Cro-Magnon I or R1b?"


Quite a lot of Bashkirs are R1b, therefore, R1b's story is more complicated than we think.

[Linebacker]

Type Cro-magnon reconstructions on google and look for pics. As I have said what does it matter when Balkan people genetically have little in common with Mesolithic Europeans (with peaks in NW Balkans up to 30%), not to mention with Cro-magnons?

All reconstructions are similar to the one I posted.Dark,short and wide faces with broad cheekbones and jaw.

There was one Cro-magnon,diverse phenotypes did not exist back then.You can't expect me to find some reconstruction that looks different.

I don't see where you are going with your arguments,but considering your nordicist reputation I think I have a hunch.

[Artek]

The Balkan I2 was presumably a Near Eastern origin haplogroup from the Anatolian-Caucasian LGM refugium and arrived into the Balkan with the neolithic farmers.
Someone haven't read a thesis of Lazaridis. Y-DNA from european mesolithic hunters-gatheres is ancestral to the Balkan I2 in most cases.


CM is alot stronger in the Balkans than Scandinavia.
Nope. Even Central Euros are stronger in CM than Balkans. They have more of a hunter-gatherer genetics.

[Insuperable]

All reconstructions are similar to the one I posted.Dark,short and wide faces with broad cheekbones and jaw.

There was one Cro-magnon,diverse phenotypes did not exist back then.You can't expect me to find some reconstruction that looks different.

I don't see where you are going with your arguments,but considering your nordicist reputation I think I have a hunch.

As I have implied, who the fuck gives a shit about reconstructions.

[Linebacker]

As I have implied, who the fuck gives a shit about reconstructions.

Yes you are 100% correct,fuck reconstructions,who gives a flying shit how the Cro-magnon really looked like,let's just imagine him how he best fits our false views.

You are a living genius walking the planet.Its an honor to have you.

[gold_fenix]

"Cro-Magnon I or R1b?"


Quite a lot of Bashkirs are R1b, therefore, R1b's story is more complicated than we think.


Yes the history is R1b really is very complex , it has various contradictions and a extrange distribution

[Hochmeister]

"Cro-Magnon I or R1b?"


Quite a lot of Bashkirs are R1b, therefore, R1b's story is more complicated than we think.

According to the Bashkir historians these R1b came from West Europe.

[Insuperable]

Yes you are 100% correct,fuck reconstructions,who gives a flying shit how the Cro-magnon really looked like,let's just imagine him how he best fits our false views.

You are a living genius walking the planet.Its an honor to have you.

The only genius here is you. You idolize CMs because you think you look like them because of some reconstructions and I am telling you that if there is any physical similarity, you and other Balkan people have little in common with Mesolithic Europeans genetically (meaning not the same people) unlike some other Europeans not to mention with Paleolithic (CM) people. Is this going to get into your head or should I write it one more time?

[Linebacker]

The only genius here is you. You idolize CMs because you think you look like them because of some reconstructions and I am telling you that if there is any physical similarity, you and other Balkan people have little in common with Mesolithic Europeans genetically (meaning not the same people) unlike some other Europeans not to mention with Paleolithic (CM) people. Is this going to get into your head or should I write it one more time?

So how do you know Balkanites have little relation with CM?Did you write the genetic code of Europe and know it like your two hands?

Your arguments are retarded.The Balkans are home to some of the most CM and robust people.But of course that is completely false according to you,we got our broad faces from some other alien robust gene,we have absolutely no connection with Mesolithic/Paleolithic Europeans.

We just dropped from the fucking sky.

[Caismeachd]

I never thought about thisthis. If cromagnon maternal DNA is U5 what is the paternal version? Does mtdna mutate at a slower rate than ydna?

[Virtuous]

Neither.

and as far as I know either I or the derivatives of it only came to be through meso-neolithic intermixing.

[Gaston]

Y dna R (R1b, R1a, R2 etc) is now just a small sub-branch of y-dna K, and particularly of K2b2:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xIyCVSPSm3I/U5LqVD5nawI/AAAAAAAACsM/TEjs1OTRu7k/s1600/Karafet-Y-DNA-K-tree-annotated.png

Based on the age of R and even just K2b2 plus the brother clades' distribution (Southeast Asia), it's highly unlikely Cro-Magnon was R, or any sub-branch of K for that matter (unless the original Out-of-Africa happened much earlier of course).


My guesses are C, F and later (mesolithic) I.

[Artek]

So how do you know Balkanites have little relation with CM?Did you write the genetic code of Europe and know it like your two hands?
Any tested mesolithic hunter-gatherer was far from what is called Balkans and outside modern genetic pool but the closest to Finns and Northern Europeans in general.


Your arguments are retarded.The Balkans are home to some of the most CM and robust people.But of course that is completely false according to you,we got our broad faces from some other alien robust gene,we have absolutely no connection with Mesolithic/Paleolithic Europeans.
I don't count Dinarid-Alpine or other Dinaroid[influenced types as CM. They may be robust and have broad faces with browridges but that's not all.

[Äijä]

Y dna R (R1b, R1a, R2 etc) is now just a small sub-branch of y-dna K, and particularly of K2b2:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xIyCVSPSm3I/U5LqVD5nawI/AAAAAAAACsM/TEjs1OTRu7k/s1600/Karafet-Y-DNA-K-tree-annotated.png

Based on the age of R and even just K2b2 plus the brother clades' distribution (Southeast Asia), it's highly unlikely Cro-Magnon was R, or any sub-branch of K for that matter (unless the original Out-of-Africa happened much earlier of course).


My guesses are C, F and later (mesolithic) I.

http://mashable.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/crying-waterfalls.gif

[Harkonnen]

http://mashable.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/crying-waterfalls.gif

These latest findings seem to move the origin of N from Southeast Asia more firmly to the northern parts of mainland East Asia. On the other hand our R cousins look to have it's deep origins among the negrito populations of Southeast Asia, so at least still not mongoloid. Pheeww..

[Cern]

According Eupedia Cro-Magnon man was actually I, and R1 arrived much later, about 2000 years ago with western Indoeuropean peoples. So, celtic, italic, germanic and latin correspond to them. But I cannot find the scientific sources supporting this theory.

R1= Indoeuropeans.

I= Cro-Magnon man, so Scandinavians and balkanians are the least indoeuropeans?


I-ydna basically eurocentric, R1 found anywhere in the world. Probably I oldest and original in Europe.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA).PNG

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KJ4I12P8zY4/Un5XvLUgTBI/AAAAAAAAAmY/XVM52TlQzi4/s1600/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA).PNG

[Artek]

I think that some part of R1a and R1b may be mesolithic in Europe but that's just a pure speculation. Let's wait for a mesolithic genomes from Russian Steppe and a Genetiker's analysis of those. R1a in Pasiegos from Cantabria is interesting, seems to be of an old age. No-one has examined it closer, sadly.

[mexico]

We have very few mesolithic European Y-DNA:

Loschbour, 6220-5990 BC
I2a1b* - (L178+, M423+, P37.2+, L460+, M438+, L68+, P38+, M170+, M359.2-, L161.1-, L621-)

Motala, 6000 BC
Motala 2: I* - (P38+ , U179+ , L41+, M253-, L37-)
Motala 3: I2 - (L68+, M258+, U179+, L181-, L417-)
Motala 9: I* - (P38+, P40-)
Motala 12: I2a1b* - L178+, M423+, P37.2+, L460+, L68+, M170+, M258+, U179+, M359.2-, L621-)

La Braña. 5,000 BC
C1a2 - (M130, M216, P255, P260, V183, V199, V232, V20)

And yes, the haplogroup R1 is a Middle-Eastern haplogroup and arrived into Europe with the neolithic newcomers. Except in Eastern Europe/Central Asia, where maybe was a mesolithic migration too.



It's more complicated, but basically yes.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10344770_1556599501233885_2763957396842730963_n.jp g?oh=26514c08376151b2e30af4fbfe68e031&oe=54145AEF&__gda__=1410976191_ed51bd6ee4ad8196087ea5c17fd62aa 6

Ahamm and what about it?

[random]

By just looking at the Cro-magnon's reconstructionhttp://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/seperated-at-birth.jpg you can see how the facial features match with most balkanites.

That guy is Iranian and Armenian.

[Linebacker]

That guy is Iranian and Armenian.

Well however he looks thats what the Cro-magnon looked like.This reconstruction and many others that look similar are not made by some random guy.

They were made by professionals,in anthropology labs.Thats the fact the scientific community gives us.

[Black Wolf]

Type Cro-magnon reconstructions on google and look for pics. As I have said what does it matter when Balkan people genetically have little in common with Mesolithic Europeans (with peaks in NW Balkans up to 30%), not to mention with Cro-magnons?

That is why I always have a little laugh when so many Albos and other Balkanites here think they are Cro-Magnons lol. They are one of the most EEF (Early European Farmer) type peoples in Europe genetically.

[I've Her Son]

Eastern and central Europeans look nothing like the ice age European hunters. They are, in fact, as far removed from Cro Magnon as it gets.

Cro Magnons had low-vaulted, elongated, massive crania. Their faces were frequently long -- as much two standards above the eastern European average as I'm about to show you. They had elongated, enormous ape like jaws, high orbits, wider faces. They had a plethora of features that eastern Europeans do not.

Eastern/central Europeans have extremely short cranial vaults that are tall and not as broad as middle and upper paleolithic Caucasoids. alanites look Mongoloid in this respect. The eastern European face is narrower, shorter, less pneumonized and projecting. Their jaws do not extend beyond their ohpryon, being tucked well behind the forehead. Their jaws are delicately constructed, mal-shapen and frequently house narrow, imapcted or missing teeth because of it -- something you will never find on a Neanderthal or Cro Magnon.

The closest living representatives of Cro Magnon/Neanderthal are Arikara Indians, Eskimos, polynesians and Northwestern European males both genetically and morphologically speaking.

No one knows the haplogroups of upper paleolithic/mesolithic Europeans or their skin color, which is irrelevant. Most Neanderthals and most arctic people have dark skin/dark eyes. Snowglare.

Cro Magnons were just old-fashioned Neanderthals anyway -- they descended directly from them and were not a hybrid species or recent immigrants. It's one thing to look at shitty play-dough reconstructions and another to actually look at the metric data and to-scale comparisons of skulls. Furthermore, the skull upon which most Cro Magnon reconstructions are based (Les Eyzies #1 - the so-called "Old Man of Cro Magnon) was found at a level that was recently re-dated to 500 A.D. That skull may in fact be a man who lived in medieval times -- still looks nothing like an eastern European.

Cro Magnon skull compared to (outline) of an eastern European skull
http://i59.tinypic.com/30rslcl.jpg

www.researchgate.net/publication/5608801_Variability_of_the_Upper_Palaeolithic_skul ls_from_Predmost_near_Prerov_(Czech_Republic)_cran iometric_comparison_with_recent_human_standards/file/9c96052b22bf138ca5.pdf

The oldest Borreby skull is no older than 10,000 years old, looks nothing like a Cro Magnon and was found in Denmark, long after the ice melted and far away from Cro Magnon territory (southwestern France).

The oldest Dinaric skull is no older than the early iron age. They are as far removed from Cro Magnon and Neanderthal as it gets.

Oldest Alpine skulls are 5,000-8,000 years old.

None of these three races have anything to do with Neanderthal, Cro Magnon or any ice age group.
They are new and pristine mutations of east Africans who appeared after the ice melted.

[Vukodav]

could be interesting to the topic. 58% of Serbs carrie pre-Neolithic y-dna.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22310393/

btw, I think you guys are all biased in some way.

[I've Her Son]

Again, pre-neolithic DNA (aside from Neanderthals) has never been uncovered. As that article reads, the lineages are only BELIEVED to be pre-Neolithic. There's no real proof. The number of pre-neolithic (and indeed even most neolithic) skeletons which have yielded DNA is basically zero. The Serbian "pre-Neolithic" DNA could very well be iron age Mongoloid DNA which I suspect it will turn out to be given the morphological continuity between Mongs and Slavs.

[Vukodav]

it is I2, I1 and R1a. hardly Mongoloid.
but in any case, modern phenos have nothing to do with y-dna.

[I've Her Son]

Haplogroup I-M253 arose from haplogroup I-M170, which appears ancient in Europe. The haplogroup was previously thought to have originated 15,000 years old in Iberia, but is now estimated to have originated between 4,000 - 5,000 years ago. It is suggested that it initially dispersed from Denmark.

Keep up with the times. Genetics is forever changing because most genetics research is bullshit carried about by charlatans.These haplogroups are now associated with Mongoloid DNA -- Northern Europeans are now shown to be over 10% east Asian on the whole. And yes Y-DNA does affect phenotype.

[Vukodav]

Haplogroup I-M253 arose from haplogroup I-M170, which appears ancient in Europe. The haplogroup was previously thought to have originated 15,000 years old in Iberia, but is now estimated to have originated between 4,000 - 5,000 years ago. It is suggested that it initially dispersed from Denmark.

Keep up with the times. Genetics is forever changing because most genetics research is bullshit carried about by charlatans.These haplogroups are now associated with Mongoloid DNA -- Northern Europeans are now shown to be over 10% east Asian on the whole. And yes Y-DNA does affect phenotype.

nope, you are being biased and drowned in the sea of useless info, trying to use some of them for your agenda.
pheno usualy shows your huge part of genetic admixture. y-dna is realy small part.

[I've Her Son]

LOL, no, Slavs are just insecure about the fact that their feminine fucking "cultures" have been getting raped by outsiders for thousands of years, and that they are Africans, not Europeans.

[Raven_]

Just take a look at AUTOPORTRAITS of Cro-Magnons from Dolni Vestovice:


http://donsmaps.com/clickphotos/headbrugar3.jpg

http://donsmaps.com/clickphotos/headbrugar2.jpg

http://donsmaps.com/clickphotos/headbrugar4.jpg


Here is a reconstruction by Cicero Moraes:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Cro-Magnon_man_-_steps_of_forensic_facial_reconstruction.jpg/799px-Cro-Magnon_man_-_steps_of_forensic_facial_reconstruction.jpg

Looks somewhat like Swedish mesolithic woman:

http://i.imgur.com/vxu0j.jpg

notice prominent ramus and cheekbones in all depictions.

http://www.itusozluk.com/image/ramus_145997.jpg

[Zmey Gorynych]

Eastern and central Europeans look nothing like the ice age European hunters. They are, in fact, as far removed from Cro Magnon as it gets
Some of the closest examples in this forum to what CM is about are from Eastern Europe. Western Europeans are generally more gracile than easterners (longer faces, slimmer bodies etc, etc, etc) ... just my 2 cents on the subject.

[I've Her Son]

Raven,

The sculpture you posted has been unveiled as a fraud. What century are you living in?

http://donsmaps.com/dolnivenus.html

The "reconstruction" of the skull you posted (Les Eyzies #1) has been re-dated to 500 AD, a medieval skull. It is not a Cro Magnon.

This is what Europeans looked like in the upper paleolithic (36,000 year old Saint Cesaire skull)

http://antropogenez.ru/uploads/pics/7_SenSezar.jpg

[I've Her Son]

Some of the closest examples in this forum to what CM is about are from Eastern Europe. Western Europeans are generally more gracile than easterners (longer faces, slimmer bodies etc, etc, etc) ... just my 2 cents on the subject.

Why don't you read this paper?

http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...22bf138ca5.pdf

http://i59.tinypic.com/30rslcl.jpg

1.) Cro Magnons had long faces. Predmosti 3 has an upper facial height of 78mm, which is two standard deviations longer than the modern Eastern European mean (67mm). Chancelade was 77mm. Skhul IV was 79mm. Zhoukoudian 101 was 78mm. Neanderthals were 82-95mm. Long face = original Caucasoid.

2.) Northern Europeans have wider and longer faces than Eastern Europeans. Eastern European faces are small in every dimension. See the metric data of Coon's TROE. It is available for free on the internet.

3.) Northern Europeans are more laterally built and weigh more than Slavs. The most massive people in the world are from Scandinavia (more northern = more massive. Law of nature).

4.) Eastern Europeans are the furthest removed from Cro Magnons and Neanderthals (who resemble eachother) in terms of cranial vault metrics, shape, and cephalic index, and have basically absent brow ridges, narrow, exceedingly delicate jaws, fucked up teeth that have shifted so far in to the back of their mandibles that they all have impacted dentition, flat faces, no prognathism -etc. They recall east-Asian Mongoloids, for Christ's sake. They look nothing like Cro Magnons, their skull types were totally absent from the paleolithic and mesolithic (and even neolithic) fossil record. Eastern Europeans have absolutely nothing to do with Cro Magnons. Just let it go.

[Zmey Gorynych]

1.) Cro Magnons had long faces. Predmosti 3 has an upper facial height of 78mm, which is two standard deviations longer than the modern Eastern European mean (67mm). Chancelade was 77mm. Skhul IV was 79mm. Zhoukoudian 101 was 78mm. Neanderthals were 82-95mm. Long face = original Caucasoid.
In absolute dimensions a CM's face is long (often longer than that of so called leptoprosopic types like nordid) but in relation to its width it is short (mesoprosopic). I happen to be an eastern european with an upper facial height of 79 mm I don't know where from do you come up with that 67mm figure !?


2.) Northern Europeans have wider and longer faces than Eastern Europeans. Eastern European faces are small in every dimension. See the metric data of Coon's TROE. It is available for free on the internet
TROE is your source !? Really !? Well then that explains a lot.


3.) Northern Europeans are more laterally built and weigh more than Slavs. The most massive people in the world are from Scandinavia (more northern = more massive. Law of nature).
4.) Eastern Europeans are the furthest removed from Cro Magnons and Neanderthals (who resemble eachother) in terms of cranial vault metrics, shape, and cephalic index, and have basically absent brow ridges, narrow jaws, fucked up teeth that have shifted so far in to the back of their mandibles that they all have impacted dentition, flat faces, no prognathism -etc. They look nothing like Cro Magnons, their skull types were totally absent from the paleolithic and mesolithic (and even neolithic) fossil record. Eastern Europeans have absolutely nothing to do with Cro Magnons. Just let it go.
Cro-Magnons have no proghnatism just massive jaws with very long chins as for the rest of your drivel - total bullshit. Please do us all a favor and kill yourself you gracile, weak, limp dick.

[I've Her Son]

You are a shining example of why all Slavs should be gassed.



In absolute dimensions a CM's face is long (often longer than that of so called leptoprosopic types like nordid) but in relation to its width it is short (mesoprosopic). I happen to be an eastern european with an upper facial height of 79 mm I don't know where from do you come up with that 67mm figure !?

Read the paper I posted, moron. It gives the measurements for Slavs and Cro Magnons. Your face isn't 79mm long.

Average upper facial height of Nordics is 77mm, so about identical with Cro Magnons, which makes sense since they are metrically close to the Cro Magnons and are believed to have descended from them (Corded Ware).

Cro Magnons had RELATIVELY NARROW FACES (leptoprosopic).

Predmosti total facial height: 132mm.
Predmosti bizygomatic breadth: 144mm.

132 x 100 / 144 = 91 facial index.

https://www.nespos.org/download/attachments/55377922/29_Skull+with+mandible+(P3),+anterior+view.jpg




Cro-Magnons have no proghnatism just massive jaws with very long chins as for the rest of your drivel - total bullshit. Please do us all a favor and kill yourself you gracile, weak, limp dick.

Just look at the photos in the article, moron. Cro Magnon mouths project a good 5 or 10mm in front of the Slavtards. They're more prognathic than many Neanderthals. Slavs have all got childlike jaws.

You are so desperate to be a Cro Magnon it his hilarious. Just be secure about your Slav (Mongolo-Negroid) heritage.

[Zmey Gorynych]

You are a shining example of why all Slavs should be gassed.Read the paper I posted, moron. It gives the measurements for Slavs and Cro Magnons. Your face isn't 79mm long.

Cunt, do you you know what upper facial height is !? Here's a picture to help you understand. Now you know better than me how long or short my face is !? :lol:

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRMTxAhrcqR2YcEpjUqm1RvNIbzm1lr_ FreHqog77dCs6K2cHov




Cro Magnons had RELATIVELY NARROW FACES (leptoprosopic).

Predmosti total facial height: 132mm.
Predmosti bizygomatic breadth: 144mm.

132 x 100 / 144 = 100 = 91 facial index.

https://www.nespos.org/download/attachments/55377922/29_Skull+with+mandible+(P3),+anterior+view.jpg
Just look at the photos in the article, moron. Cro Magnon mouths project a good 5 or 10mm in front of the Slavtards. They're more prognathic than many Neanderthals. Slavs have all got childlike jaws..
The examples you posted and mentioned are not CM's but robust archaic gracile skulls.
132 by 144 is nothing exceptional really. CM's are mesoprosopic (their faces are both very long and very wide) This is a CM skull, little gracile cunt.

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/4381/oberkassel1.jpg

[I've Her Son]

Cunt, do you you know what upper facial height is !? Here's a picture to help you understand. Now you know better than me how long or short my face is !? :lol:

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRMTxAhrcqR2YcEpjUqm1RvNIbzm1lr_ FreHqog77dCs6K2cHov




The examples you posted and mentioned are not CM's but robust archaic gracile skulls.
132 by 144 is nothing exceptional really. CM's are mesoprosopic (their faces are bot very long and very wide) This is a CM skull, little gracile cunt.

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/4381/oberkassel1.jpg

LMFAO. The skulls I posted are all +20,000 years older than that Oberkassel skull (found in GERMANY, btw).

The Oberkassel skull is barely 10,000 years old. It's neolithic. It's not even a Cro Magnon (like you).

Robust archaic gracile skulls...
Can it get any better than this?

[Zmey Gorynych]

Robust archaic gracile skulls...
Can it get any better than this?
Slightly bigger than modern gracile skulls but having all the right proportions (CI, FI, etc). Is that clearer !?

[I've Her Son]

Slightly bigger than modern gracile skulls but having all the right proportions (CI, FI, etc). Is that clearer !?

Nobody knows what the hell you are talking about. Yourself included.

[Zmey Gorynych]

Nobody knows what the hell you are talking about. Yourself included.
and that's coming from a guy who says CM's were leptoprosopic !?


Cro-Magnons were robustly built and powerful. The body was generally heavy and solid with a strong musculature. The forehead was fairly straight rather than sloping like in Neanderthals, and with only slight browridges. The face was short and wide. The chin was prominent. The brain capacity was about 1,600 cubic centimetres (98 cu in), larger than the average for modern humans.[3] However, recent research suggests that the physical dimensions of so-called "Cro-Magnon" are not sufficiently different from modern humans to warrant a separate designation.[4][5]

In case you wonder it's from Encyclopedia Britannica but hey you know better right !? :lol:

and here's the "Old man of Crô-Magnon", Musée de l'Homme, Paris but again you have better examples :lol:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Cro-Magnon.jpg

[de Burgh II]

Nobody knows what the hell you are talking about. Yourself included.

Who the hell is this trollish retard? lol

[Raven_]

edit.

[Insuperable]

it is I2, I1 and R1a. hardly Mongoloid.
but in any case, modern phenos have nothing to do with y-dna.

Interesting that they think R1a is pre-neolithic. Based on what they think that, I wonder?

[I've Her Son]

and that's coming from a guy who says CM's were leptoprosopic !?



In case you wonder it's from Encyclopedia Britannica but hey you know better right !? :lol:

and here's the "Old man of Crô-Magnon", Musée de l'Homme, Paris but again you have better examples :lol:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Cro-Magnon.jpg

For the last time, that skull, Les Eyzies #1, has been redated to 500 AD (medieval times) and is thus not a Cro Magnon skull.

He was also missing all of his teeth and died of a facial fungal infection, but oh well, I guess you can pat yourself on the back on knowing that you look like a toothless medieval Frenchman who died with his face rotting off.

[I've Her Son]

Les Eyzies #1 is an anterirely different archeological site. The sculpture I posted is from Dolni Vestonice. The article you linked to does not even mention Les Eyzies.

Since you clearly have the attention span of a 4 year old child, let me help you:

1.) The sculpture you posted is a fake. Scroll down to the bottom of this article.

http://donsmaps.com/dolnivenus.html

Hell, I will copy and paste the text for you, you dumbfuck:


http://donsmaps.com/clickphotos/headbrugarsm4.jpg

This may be a portrait of the person with a protruding brow whose skull was found in Brno, Czechoslovakia, in 1891. Since these photographs were published in the National Geographic in October 1988, and Plains of Passage was published in 1990, Jean Auel could well have used it as the model for Brugar, the person of mixed spirits described in Plains of Passage as having lived at Dolni Vestonice.

Eight centimetre high male head carved of mammoth ivory dated at 26 000 years BP.

Note that the figure has very heavy brow ridges. The figure has been stated to have a beard, but this feature is not obvious from the photographs.

Note also that Paul Bahn writing in 'Journey through the Ice Age', says that the head may be a fake. His main argument seems to be lack of provenance (meaning that it was not found by a recognised and trusted archeologist, or with reliable witnesses to the discovery) and that the style is too modern. He also says that the Lady of Brassempouy (the ivory carving of Ayla) may be a fake.


The reconstruction you posted, an artist's composite, is of a skull designated Les Eyzies #1, aka the so-called "Old Man of Cro Magnon", which was recently re-dated to 500 years after the death of Jesus Christ, and is thus a medieval French peasant, and not, in fact, a Cro Magnon. The entire basis of the "Cro Magnon" concept was essentially turned over on its back with this recent revelation.

[Raven_]

It is not fake. At least you can not claim it with certainity. I will quote something too:



Klima said, 'We have so many unique things from Dolni Vestonice and Brno -the 'marionette', the oldest fired clay figures, the 26 000 year old female head - it would not surprise me to find here the oldest male image.'

Back in Kansas, Ed Zeller and his associate Dr. Wakefield Dort, Jr., a Pleistocene geologist now had the carved hair piece to test. They placed it in the counting chamber of the alpha particle spectrometer for 72 hours. The final ratios of uranium to decay products suggested that the carved surface of the ivory may be about 26 000 years old.

The scientists envision this Ice Age scenario: Sometime after a mammoth died, someone carved a piece of its tusk. The carving became buried in sediment or sand, where it absorbed uranium, iron oxide, and fluoride from the groundwater. The calcium phosphate of the ivory absorbed the minerals, especially the uranium. At the same time, radioactive decay set in, leaving its by-products at levels that require thousands of years to build up to the present reading. If the head had been carved anytime in the past few centuries, the decay products on the surface would have been cut away. 'Even Madam Curie couldn't fake that effect.' Ed said. He and Dort have no doubt that the carving is ancient, but the precise age has yet to be confirmed.

[Zmey Gorynych]

For the last time, that skull, Les Eyzies #1, has been redated to 500 AD (medieval times) and is thus not a Cro Magnon skull.
Idiot, do you understand that the picture you posted is a neanderthal (homo neanderthalensis) a different species from Homo Sapiens which the Cro-Magnons were/are a part of !? The fact that neanderthals lived during the upper paleolithic doesn't make them CM.

Are you by any chance Melonhead !? Your idiotic theories are strikingly similar.

[I've Her Son]

Idiot, do you understand that the picture you posted is a neanderthal (homo neanderthalensis) a different species from Homo Sapiens which the Cro-Magnons were/are a part of !? The fact that neanderthals lived during the upper paleolithic doesn't make them CM.

Are you by any chance Melonhead !? Your idiotic theories are strikingly similar.

The "last" Neanderthals (Spy #1 and Spy #2 and Saint Cesaire #1) are morphologically and metrically almost identical to the "early" Cro Magnons (Predmosti #3, Dolni Vestonice #16). CM was just a continuation of Neanderthal evolution. Cro magnons looked like Neanderthals, used the same technology and tools, and lived essentially the same way -- BECAUSE THEY WERE OLD FASHIONED NEANDERTHALS.

Predmosti 3 compared to Saint Cesaire 1

http://i42.tinypic.com/sgo9c4.jpg

You should read Milford Wolpoff's material since you are clearly entirely ignorant of the subject.


The Brno sculptures do not resemble any other Upper Paleolithic carvings or figurines, and are fake. Upper Paleolithic carvings followed a very strict style and the Brno sculptures violate them in every way. They were produced with modern steel files -- which obviously weren't available 26,000 years ago.

[Artek]

Interesting that they think R1a is pre-neolithic. Based on what they think that, I wonder?

R1a(and R1b) may be pre-neolithic in some parts of Europe. Not as significant as "I" but probably with regional role like C-V20. Scientists will figure it out someday, I believe.

[Amud]

By just looking at the Cro-magnon's reconstructionhttp://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/seperated-at-birth.jpg you can see how the facial features match with most balkanites.

Maybe that's why people from the Balkans have an average IQ of ~93

[sonofthedutch]

most r1b is probably neolithic or post neolithic

[Germaniac]

I with minorities of C and maybe even F. R1b is posterior.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Eupedia just makes shit up, no need for 'facts'. No one knows what y-dna cromags were. Neanderthal with y-dna was sequenced a few years ago but STILL no results! I hate to get paranoid but the guy doing the study is not that neanderthal/euro friendly so I would not be shocked if it got suppressed.

My guess is that before farming there would be largely unrelated groups living separately from each other who had all different haplotypes, so there would not necessarily be one single haplotype.