Kurdistan: INDEPENDENCE

[Rojava]

Turkey has officially declared it's support for an independent Kurdistan

http://rudaw.net/sorani/kurdistan/1306201420

Translation at: ekurd.net/mismas/articles/misc2014/6/turkey5043.htm



ANKARA,— The Kurds of Iraq have the right to decide the future of their land, said Huseyin Celik, a spokesman for Turkey’s ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) on Friday.

“The Kurds of Iraq can decide for themselves the name and type of the entity they are living in,” Celik told Rudaw in an interview.

The AKP is the party of Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan under whom Ankara and Erbil have built strong economic and diplomatic relations.

In case Iraq gets partitioned, said Celik, “the Kurds, like any other nation, will have the right to decide their fate.”

Celik believes that Iraq is already headed towards partition thanks to “Maliki’s sectarian policies.”

In the past several days fighters of the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) have occupied most of Iraq’s Sunni areas in the center of the country.

They have declared war on Nouri al-Maliki’s Shiite government whom they accuse of persecuting the Sunni population.

“Turkey has been supporting the Kurdistan Region till now and will continue this support,” said Celik.


Turkey and Kurdistan have signed a 50-year energy deal and Kurdish oil is exported via a pipeline that connects the autonomous region to the port of Ceyhan on the Mediterranean.


Current areas under Kurdish control atm (actually even larger but these are majority Kurdish areas):
http://z5.ifrm.com/30192/69/0/p1196671/South_Kurdistan.png

[Hayalet]

Seems like the only people who can create a Kurdistan are the Turks. Ironic.

[Rojava]

Seems like the only people who can create a Kurdistan are the Turks. Ironic.

Create? It says nothing about Turks creating a Kurdistan. I find it ironic that Turks support an independent Kurdistan.

[Rojava]

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t1.0-9/10246658_629877383774564_2540851897811801427_n.jpg

[Peyrol]

Create? It says nothing about Turks creating a Kurdistan. I find it ironic that Turks support an independent Kurdistan.

They support iraqui kurds independence because they hope that this state would absorb a good amount of turkish kurds probabily.

[Alphawolf]

They support iraqui kurds independence because they hope that this state would absorb a good amount of turkish kurds probabily.

I support this.

[Rojava]

It might attract many Kurds in Turkey to move to an official Kurdistan, but this will just inspire our comrades in the North to fight even harder and that is also why all these years Turkey never supported the separation of Iraq until yesterday.

After all, 30 million people will not fit in an area the size of the Netherlands.

[Petros Houhoulis]

By the time the Turks shall hear the wake up call, Turkey itself shall be renamed to Kurdistan...

[Alphawolf]

By the time the Turks shall hear the wake up call, Turkey itself shall be renamed to Kurdistan...

Only after we have proclaimed the Caliphate in Greece.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP4DD2qaY5Q

[Petros Houhoulis]

Only after we have proclaimed the Caliphate in Greece.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP4DD2qaY5Q

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_h9hbo1UREh8/TUCENFdD25I/AAAAAAAABUg/24DERghFdVw/s1600/%25CE%259B.jpg

Come and get it!

Don't play dumb, you made a promise! Playing in the grass with the weed that you smoke is not an excuse!

http://et0.xhamster.com/t/320/6_b_566320.jpg

Crazy Muzzlim!!!

[legolasbozo]

They support iraqui kurds independence because they hope that this state would absorb a good amount of turkish kurds probabily.

Would you prefer to live in turkey, get benefits from it's passport, citizenship, mediterranean shores, istanbul, one of the most advanced muslim country in all aspects or leave it for new-born independent state stucked in middle east with enemies around it? Otherwise i support independent kurdistan include kurdish overpopulated turkey's border cities. Even iraqi kurdistan would declare its independence without transportation of oil via turkey its worthless.

Edit: in iraqi kurdistan even many people would prefer to join Turkey because of its status in middle east and ties with europe.

[Peyrol]

Would you prefer to live in turkey, get benefits from it's passport, citizenship, tourism, istanbul, one of the most advanced muslim country in all aspects or leave it for new-born independent state stucked in middle east with enemies around it? Otherwise i support independent kurdistan include kurdish overpopulated turkey's border cities. Even iraqi kurdistan would declare its independence without transportation of oil via turkey its worthless.

Edit: in iraqi kurdistan even many people would prefer to join Turkey because of its status in middle east and ties with europe.

Do turkish kurds have facilitations as ''minorities'' ?

Btw the indepentend Kurdistan made in north Iraq will collapse in 12 months maximum. I can imagine all the local warlords trying to reach the maximum power.

[SardiniaAtlantis]

I support this.

Will never happen. Kurds are too attached to the idea of their entire homeland. They would not give up in their hearts, nor minds the parts of Kurdistan that lie in Turkey, Iran and elsewhere nor should they.

[gültekin]

what a ironic fun, the people who hate Erdoğans government, are happy with what he says


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHTH3PDQeBE
u faggots need more lesson. much more.
crying and begging create nothing

[Rojava]

Would you prefer to live in turkey, get benefits from it's passport, citizenship, mediterranean shores, istanbul, one of the most advanced muslim country in all aspects or leave it for new-born independent state stucked in middle east with enemies around it? Otherwise i support independent kurdistan include kurdish overpopulated turkey's border cities. Even iraqi kurdistan would declare its independence without transportation of oil via turkey its worthless.

Edit: in iraqi kurdistan even many people would prefer to join Turkey because of its status in middle east and ties with europe.

You have no idea how Southern Kurdistan is:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmW1AX9QzmM

I am so proud of how much Kurdistan has developed in such a short time.

Our Kurdish comrades in the North don't consider it as Turkey but as Kurdistan. Go to Diyarbekir/Amed, you will see for yourself. There is nothing even remotely Turkish about it. Everyone speaks Kurdish, they sell Kurdistan t shirts, they listen to Kurdish PKK music. And Turkish flags? The biggest I saw was one of those flags you put on a car window, and guess where that was? Next to a police station! The police travel in armored vehicles too. Local politicians refer to the region as "Northern Kurdistan". The mayor himself told me "Welcome to the capital of Kurdistan". He's a nice man.

We don't believe in these fake borders. Kurdistan now has Kirkuk and Northern Mosul and even has the biggest gas reserves in the world. Since the world is getting less reliant on Russian gas, Kurdish economy will prosper even more.

And let's not forget, Turkey's economy will prosper too.

I do not understand why many Turks oppose an independent Kurdistan that would include Kirkuk since it would benefit them too.

[Rojava]

this is mean WAR! not like syria or Iraq, we are cruel .

I support the kurdish emigration

Just go fuck yourself you wannabe fake Anatolian.

[Rojava]

Do turkish kurds have facilitations as ''minorities'' ?

Btw the indepentend Kurdistan made in north Iraq will collapse in 12 months maximum. I can imagine all the local warlords trying to reach the maximum power.

What makes you say that? It's one of the safest places in the whole Middle East. It has good security, and it's economy prospers. And now that we have Kirkuk, we do not need to rely on 17% government budget. There are no "local warlords", it is safely controlled by the Peshmerga who have some of the most high tech equipment in the world.

Even ISIS wants to make a deal with us because they know they would never win against us. We are much better organized than the Iraqi army, we are better trained and have more experience in combat too.

[legolasbozo]

Do turkish kurds have facilitations as ''minorities'' ?

Btw the indepentend Kurdistan made in north Iraq will collapse in 12 months maximum. I can imagine all the local warlords trying to reach the maximum power.

Turkey oppressed, tortured, and even killed independent kurdistan supporter kurds (and maybe include innocent ones as well) till end of 90's, but since then too much things have changed. Let me give you an example a few months ago there was a demonstration, they stoned a bus and driver passed out, he crushed a boy and the boy has died, demonstraters attacked bus driver and lynched him. The government didnt made any accusation and just closed the case just because of ridiculous "peace process" even last week they shooted a sergeant from his leg but nothing has happened. Can you imagine it? İra shooting a cop and not any trial or any interrogation. Today the situation is like that, i harrassed my son, beat him and now i bought him a porsche 911 to gain his heart again. This is ridiculous, the deep state militas and other responsibles should be in jail but two wrong cant make one right.

[legolasbozo]

What makes you say that? It's one of the safest places in the whole Middle East. It has good security, and it's economy prospers. And now that we have Kirkuk, we do not need to rely on 17% government budget. There are no "local warlords", it is safely controlled by the Peshmerga who have some of the most high tech equipment in the world.

Even ISIS wants to make a deal with us because they know they would never win against us. We are much better organized than the Iraqi army, we are better trained and have more experience in combat too.

Sorrry but just one week ago, iraq kurdistan was a prosperous and hopeful state for future and now its fighting with isis. That's what i'm talking about, you think that after independence everything would be served in a golden plate, but its not like that in middle east. This is what has happened turkey for years, west made a flame war kurds againt turkey to dynamite turkey's stability (thanks to suport(!) our ultra fanatic secularists politics) and we just tried to deal with all those problems. This is what happens and now you confronted it.

[wvwvw]

Do turkish kurds have facilitations as ''minorities'' ?

Btw the indepentend Kurdistan made in north Iraq will collapse in 12 months maximum. I can imagine all the local warlords trying to reach the maximum power.

Kurdistan has been autonomous for the many years now.

"Iraq's Kurds have done well since 2003, running their own affairs while being given a fixed percentage of the country's overall oil revenue. But with full control of Kirkuk - and the vast oil deposits beneath it - they could earn more on their own, eliminating the incentive to remain part of a failing Iraq."

[wvwvw]

What makes you say that? It's one of the safest places in the whole Middle East. It has good security, and it's economy prospers. And now that we have Kirkuk, we do not need to rely on 17% government budget. There are no "local warlords", it is safely controlled by the Peshmerga who have some of the most high tech equipment in the world.

Even ISIS wants to make a deal with us because they know they would never win against us. We are much better organized than the Iraqi army, we are better trained and have more experience in combat too.

It's very secure if you ignore the daily (suicide?) bombings every day :lol:

[Rojava]

It's very secure if you ignore the daily (suicide?) bombings every day :lol:

In Kurdistan? Rarely happens. Thanks to a well trained security force.

[Rojava]

Sorrry but just one week ago, iraq kurdistan was a prosperous and hopeful state for future and now its fighting with isis. That's what i'm talking about, you think that after independence everything would be served in a golden plate, but its not like that in middle east. This is what has happened turkey for years, west made a flame war kurds againt turkey to dynamite turkey's stability (thanks to suport(!) our ultra fanatic secularists politics) and we just tried to deal with all those problems. This is what happens and now you confronted it.

Why are people making it such a big deal? We are not the Iraqi army. Our territory has doubled because of the failures of Iraq. And ISIS has made an offer to Kurds. They will let us keep our territories we have won, if we don't get involved in Baghdad. And why should we not accept it? This is beneficial to Kurdistan.

I'm really amazed at how little people know about Kurdistan and the current situation.

[gültekin]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqG3ZCzCQAIlaSA.jpg
There is something that no one expected. whait and watch.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqH5mg-CMAAo7II.jpg:large
Horses don't die when the dogs want to
Tanrı Türk'ü korusun

[Petros Houhoulis]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqG3ZCzCQAIlaSA.jpg
There is something that no one expected. whait and watch.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqH5mg-CMAAo7II.jpg:large
Horses don't die when the dogs want to
Tanrı Türk'ü korusun

http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_34916


""Kurds do not divide Turkey but Invade Today half of the Kurds are living in western cities such as Ankara, İzmir, Bursa,İzmit,Adana,Antalya, Mersin, Konya, Manisa, Aydın,Samsun. Even in Thracian and Blacksea region, the Kurdish population has been rapidly spreading. Such that, more Kurds have been living in the other parts of Turkey than the place that the Kurdists call Kurdistan. Furthermore Kurds have been obtaining the most important positions where they live, and have been rapidly rising economically, socially and culturally. Besides Kurdish population have a growth rate that is incomparable to the Turkish population.

According to the calculations, in 20-25 years Kurdish population will exceed the Turkish population. In this respect conscious and planned actions have been being carried out, the Kurdish population-growth has been being consciously encouraged. While this is done, in the cities such as Tokat, Amasya, Afyon Kastamonu, Sinop, Çankırı, Zonguldak,Samsun, Ordu, Sakarya, Giresun, Trabzon, Gümüşhane, Çorum, Edirne, Uşak,Kırıkkale, Bartın, Karabük where Turks are the majority, under the name of “family planning” the Turkish population-growth is tried to be restrained.

Turkish population-growth has stopped and it even shows a tendency to decrease. However, the family planning works in the Southeast have been failed because of the Kurdists that make the region population conscious in this respect. What’s more, by the AKP government’s coming to power the family planning in the Southeastern region has been ceased and the programme of distributing money per child has been started. In other words even more increase of Kurdish population has been intended. For Kurdish families, having many children has got to the point of a conscious movement.

According to the claim of Haftalık magazine;
In Turkey, Turkish population growth ceased 10 years ago, and for 5 years it has entered into a decreasing phase. The number of Turks decrease by 0.8% each year while Kurds increase at least by 3% each year. It is said that the population growth in Turkey is a Kurdish product. While agreeing this claim, I also think that the increase of arabs and gipsies should not be ignored.

One of the important declarations that reveals the aim of the Kurdistanization of Turkey belongs to the assassinated famous Kurdist journalist Musa Anter. Musa Anter by saying “İstanbul is the biggest Kurdish city.” “We are not so stupid to wish the division of Turkey and give up on İstanbul, Ankara and İzmir.” has very simply and bravely gave voice to the main goal that Kurds have in their mind. And maybe because of this and such declarations he made, for revealing the hidden aims he has been assassinated by PKK thinking that he harms Kurdism.

Today many holding companies of Turkey are owned by Kurds. Many giant corporations such as Toprak Holding and Ceylan Holding are owned by Kurds. Apart from this, Kurds dominate the business branches that bring hot money with a 75% share. Kurds have come to a dominating position in commerce in every region and city, it should not be very difficult to estimate that Kurdish riches support Kurdism, but do this in a very skilful and sneaky way.

The donations that make the Kurdish singers that earn large sums of money to Kurdist organizations are not a secret. The cultural storm that is blown in the media by the Kurdish origined singers who take part for free in the organizations that are organized by DEHAP (a pro-Kurdish political party) municipalities is based on the politics of the Kurdization of the cultural and artistic climate of Turkey. The Turkish culture which is tried to be captured by the Kurdish songs or the musical products with a Kurdish accent and the TV series that are produced in the frames of the Kurdish cultural identity faces degeneration and assimilation.

In politics, as well, a Kurdization has been experienced in its true meaning. At least half of the deputies and ministries in the Grand National Assembly of Turkey are Kurdish origined. Not only the Southeast deputies but also an important portion of the Central and Western Anatolia deputies are Kurdish origined. In this point, it should be recalled that Mesut Barzani said “I have seventy five men in the Grand National Assembly of Turkey.” If Barzani has seventy five men then Talabani must have at least that much of men as well. And think about the number of the deputies that are Apo (Abdullah Öcalan, the founding leader of PKK) supporters.

The Kurdish origined deputies would not hesitate to do what is required by their fundamental identity when the appropriate political and social atmosphere forms (they already do it sneakily). In order to give you an idea about it, let us remind you the voting that took place in the near past. The political attitudes of the East and Southeast deputies that upon the wishes of Barzani and Talabani rejected as a whole the offer of the USA to the Turkish army to carry out a joint operation to northern Irak are known.

In order to demonstrate the power of Kurds in politics, we should, as well, recall that the former Minister of Foreign Affairs, Abdullah Gül boasted by more than half of the AKP deputies being Kurdish origined. Anyway, Abdullah Gül himself is not a Turk either. His family moved to Kayseri from Siirt in the past.

The statement of Baykal (leader of the Republican People’s Party, CHP) is tragic but true. He states in a statement he made to Takvim newspaper:
“Kurds can have the most beautiful yalı (a seaside house in Istanbul) and the most beautiful girls of Istanbul. Our everything is common. For this reason Kurds would not want a separation either.”
Tragic but a true determination. Let’s figure it out it. Except a couple of idiot Kurds, no Kurd wants separation. Their intention is not to divide or to get divided but to get the resources and the cities of Turkey. In the meanwhile, they will, of course, consider it a gain if they can obtain an autonomy in the cities that they will get the majority in the Eastern and Southeastern Anatolia. As some shallow minded people believe, the name of the real danger is not the “separatist Kurds”, but the “invasive Kurds”."

If you expand towards more Kurdish lands, you'll become a majority Kurdish state much earlier... Why don't you try?

[Hayalet]

According to the calculations, in 20-25 years Kurdish population will exceed the Turkish population.
Explain how 12-15 million will exceed 55-60 million in 20-25 years please, thanks.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Explain how 12-15 million will exceed 55-60 million in 20-25 years please, thanks.

Well, if the actual number is already 20 million, but you are hiding them since they live away from Kurdistan, you get your answer...

Actually, My personal estimate is two generations, not one, and at some point I had found a source on the internet which was by far more accurate than the above, pointing to that outcome. I think that it was posted by AngloJew. I'll try to find it again...

[Sidi Atlas]

Iraq's Kurdistan should indeed be preparing independence. There is no future if they stay in Iraq.

[Alphawolf]

The actual Kurdish population varies between 6 and 12 million in Turkey.

[Hayalet]

Well, if the actual number is already 20 million,
Not by a long shot. The only way to come up with such a figure is to assume that all eastern Anatolians are Kurdish, which they aren't. 2/3 at most.

[The Lawspeaker]

It's about time. I think the Turks should prefer a well-organised, stable (and relatively friendly) neighbour (Kurdistan) over a bunch of religious fanatics (Iran) or a state in perpetual war. (Syria/Iraq/Lebanon)

[Petros Houhoulis]

Not by a long shot. The only way to come up with such a figure is to assume that all eastern Anatolians are Kurdish, which they aren't. 2/3 at most.

They are taking Western Anatolia while you are sleeping... But you don't take notice, do you?

[Hayalet]

They are taking Western Anatolia while you are sleeping... But you don't take notice, do you?
Everybody knows that more Kurds live in Istanbul than any other city (~2 million). But as large as a minority it is, they are only 15% of the population there and it is a far cry from a takeover.

[Alphawolf]

They are taking Western Anatolia while you are sleeping... But you don't take notice, do you?

I prefer the Pakistani demographic weapon in Greece.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xs1T83Vn-8

The Turks and Kurds have lived together for over thousand years and have grown together to form one unit. Can it be said by the Greeks and Pakistanis that too?

[The Lawspeaker]

I prefer the Pakistani demographic weapon in Greece.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xs1T83Vn-8

The Turks and Kurds have lived together for over thousand years and have grown together to form one unit. Can it be said by the Greeks and Pakistanis that too?
No one can live together with Paki's. Not even Paki's.

[Petros Houhoulis]

The actual Kurdish population varies between 6 and 12 million in Turkey.

What sort of weed do you smoke, and makes you so oblivious to the truth?

http://et0.xhamster.com/t/320/6_b_566320.jpg

http://www.jinsa.org/fellowship-program/david-p-goldman/demographic-sources-turkeys-foreign-policy-crisis



The Demographic Sources of Turkey's Foreign Policy Crisis


October 25, 2012
By David P. Goldman
JINSA Fellow (http://www.jinsa.org/fellows/david-goldman/all#.UImcGYXah8Q)
Syria's two million Kurds have become a wild card in the country's crisis, after the Assad regime encouraged Kurdish autonomy as a ploy against its Sunni opposition in the ongoing civil war. The importance of the small Syrian Kurdish zone extends far beyond its possible role as a base for PKK guerillas to attack Turkish security forces. The new self-assertion of Syria's Kurdish minority forces a long-term problem onto the short-term regional agenda: the inexorable shift of the population balance in Anatolia towards the fast-growing Kurdish population at the expense of Turkish-speakers, whose fertility has fallen to Western European levels.
Turkey's demographic time bomb has gone largely uncommented in the Western press, but it has the undivided attention of the Turkish media. The thesis that the Kurdish question may not be soluble within Anatolia over the medium term has gained wide credence among Turkish analysts. It helps to explain why Turkey appears paralyzed in the face of the Syrian conflict.
In a matter of months, Turkish foreign policy has devolved from Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu's celebrated "zero problems" policy to severe problems on every border and beyond. If Turkey's foreign policy travails stem from inexorable long-term trends rather than short-term mistakes, as some Turkish analysts argue, conventional wisdom about Turkey's status as a pillar of the Western alliance deserves reexamination. If Turkey is fighting a rearguard battle against an inevitable Kurdish ascendancy, American policy should seek to ensure that the emerging Kurdish nationality remains supportive of Western goals. Because of the Turkish-Syrian conflict, there is competition for Kurdish sympathies.
http://jinsa.org/files/images/Kurdish_settlement_map.jpgAreas of large Kurdish population in red
The Assad regime has presented Turkey with a piece of poisoned bait by withdrawing the Syrian army from majority-Kurdish areas abutting the Turkish border. The result is a de facto autonomous Kurdish zone that acts as a buffer with Turkey. Assad evidently hopes that Kurdish ambitions will make it virtually impossible for Turkey to intervene in Syria's civil war.
The Los Angeles Times (http://articles.latimes.com/2012/oct/05/world/la-fg-syria-kurds-20121006) reported Oct. 5 from the northern Syria town of Afrin that "conflict seems far away from Kurdish towns like this agricultural hub...While battles rage in Aleppo, just 40 miles to the southeast, markets here are lively and, in the evenings, men at animated eateries sip arak, the clear, anise-flavored liquor that turns cloudy when mixed with ice and water. Assad's stretched forces gradually withdrew, culminating in a near-total pullout in July that occurred with barely a shot being fired, Kurdish leaders say...Nearby, rebel-held Arab cities like Azzaz and Al Bab have become doleful and depopulated battlegrounds, rubble-strewn ghost towns where remaining residents dart for cover when fighter jets buzz overhead."
Josh Wood wrote in AI-Monitor Oct. 4 (http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2012/al-monitor/syria-kurds-derek-protest.html), "As did the 28 million other Kurds in Iraq, Turkey and Iran, Syria's Kurds endured decades of marginalization and subjugation under unfriendly governments. Now autonomy is on the minds of many here. With the state gone, they are organizing for self-governance - from garbage collection to town councils and armed forces - as they lay tentative claim to some areas. "Always the Kurdish people were soldiers for others, so we decided to be soldiers for ourselves, for the Kurdish people only," said Saleh Mohammed, the leader of the most powerful Kurdish party in Syria, the Democratic Union Party (PYD)."
Turkey is most unlikely to make good on its threats to intervene in the Syrian civil war, in part because it would provoke responses from the Shi'ite world, as Emre Akoz warned in Sabah Oct. 11 (http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/security/01/10/turkeys-dreams-of-entering-damascus-could-lead-to-nightmares.html?utm_source=&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=4761), not to mention from Russia. More to the point, Turkish armed forces entering Syria would have to contend with the newly confident Syrian Kurds, whom the Assad regime has left unmolested, widening the Kurdish conflict. That is the last thing that the Erdoğan government wants to do.
Russia evidently believes that the aspirations of the Syrian Kurds might enhance Moscow's influence in the region. On Oct. 10, the Voice of Russia quoted Abdel-Hamid Darwish (http://english.ruvr.ru/2012_10_10/Syria-is-descending-into-darkness-General-Secretary-of-the-Syrian-Kurdish-Party/) of the Kurdish National Movement in Syria saying that if Syrian-Turkish conflict "does break out, it would push to catastrophe all of the Middle East and the scale of that catastrophe is unpredictable." In effect, the Russian official media incited the Kurds to admonish Turkey.
Turkey meanwhile is making conciliatory gestures to Kurdish leaders. On the eve of the ruling AKP's general conference, Prime Minister Erdoğan announced (http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/politics/2012/10/kurdish-syria-turkey-pkk-ocalan.html) that the imprisoned Kurdish Workers' Party (PKK) leader Abdullah Ocalan would be released from solitary confinement and allowed family visits. Massoud Barzani, the leader of Iraq's Kurdish autonomous region, was given a place of honor as a guest at the AKP conference. The Turkish Weekly of Oct. 1 (http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/142860/massoud-barzani-attends-ak-party-congress-in-ankara-.html) quoted Barzani saying, "We are ready to try our best in order to help Erdoğan stop the bloodshed. Whatever necessary will be done and we are ready to do it. We do think that peace is the only way to understand each other accurately."
Turkey is hoping that Barzani will mediate between Turkey and the Syrian Kurds, according to the website Timeturk (http://www.timeturk.com/tr/2012/09/21/kurt-sorununun-cozumu-ve-akp-nin-yeni-yol-haritasi.html). It also hoped that another prominent guest at the AKP conference, Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi, would help get the Syrian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood to cooperate with Turkish mediation efforts. Turkey's efforts to date, though, have failed to find support (http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/politics/2012/10/khaled-shantout-interview.html?utm_source=&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=4741) among Syria's divided rebels.
That leaves Turkey long on rhetoric and short on action, paralyzed in the face of a security threat that, in the medium term, could make the present boundaries of the Turkish state unsustainable. As Ümit Özdag observed in PressTurk on Oct. 10 (http://www.pressturk.com/guncel/haber/102133/umit-ozdag-demografik-silah.html), the imprisoned Ocalan argued as back in 1989 that the Kurds would gradually overpower Turks in the Anatolian peninsula through sheer demographics. That is precisely what Kurdish leaders have in mind today, Özdag argued. "In 2011," he reports, "a group of representatives from Iraqi Kurdistan met with a think-tank in Ankara. They said, 'We are going to make Anatolia Kurdish in 100 years, the way that you made Anatolia Turkish a thousand years ago.
It is questionable whether the Kurds have a master plan for the demographic conquest of Anatolia, but Turkish paranoia about the Kurdish population time bomb has a basis in fact. A 2008 study in Population Policy Review concluded:
Fertility levels of Turks and Kurds are significantly different. At current fertility rates, Turkish-speaking women will give birth to an average of 1.88 children during their reproductive years. The corresponding figure is 4.07 children for Kurdish women. Kurdish women will have almost 2 children more than Turkish women...Results show that despite intensive internal migration movements in the last 50 years, strong demographic differentials exist between Turkish and Kurdish-speaking populations, and that the convergence of the two groups does not appear to be a process under way. Turks and Kurds do indeed appear to be actors of different demographic regimes, at different stages of demographic and health transition processes.

The decline of Turkish fertility, along with rapidly falling fertility in all Muslim countries that display high literary rates, is a stealth phenomenon that only recently has drawn widespread attention. I review the data in my book How Civilizations Die and why Islam is Dying, Too (Regnery 2011). More recently, Nicholas Eberstadt and Poorvah Shah reviewed the data in a study in Policy Review (http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/118261). Muslim demographics have important strategic implications for a number of countries. Turkey's situation, though, is unique in the extreme differences between Turkish-speaking and Kurdish-speaking fertility in Anatolia.
Prime Minister Erdoğan has made the revival of Turkey's flagging birth rate a major political issue. Zaman reported during last year's election campaign that he
... lashed out at his chief rival party for promoting birth control for years, reiterating his call for at least three children. Erdoğan, who has long claimed that for a healthy and vibrant society people must have at least three children, said the Western societies are now collapsing because of aging and urged his supporters in a campaign rally in Ankara on Monday not to 'trap into this game.' They [the opposition CHP] have inspired this nation with birth control for having aging population on the world stage," Erdoğan told at the rally, adding that if population continues to increase at this level, Turkey will be among aging nations by 2038.

Erdoğan is focused on a critical weakness that Western analysts for the most part have overlooked. Within one generation, at current rates, half of Turkey's military-age population will be born in households where Kurdish is the first language. The Turkish government's hope of integrating the Kurds under the broader Islamic tent have failed, and the new ambitions of Syria's Kurds expose the underlying weakness of Turkey's strategic position and the likely effectiveness of its diplomacy.
It also calls into question the presumption that Turkey is America's critical ally in the region. If Turkey is likely to be the loser on demographic grounds, American planners need to consider alternatives to reliance on Ankara for regional policy. If a Kurdish state is inevitable for demographic and other reasons, America may do best to place an early bet on the winner.
[I] Ismet Koc, Attila Hancioglu and Alanur Cavlin, "Demographic Differentials and Demographic Integration of Turkish and KurdishPopulations in Turkey," in Population Research and Policy Review, Volume 27, Number 4, pp. 447-457.
David P. Goldman, JINSA Fellow (http://www.jinsa.org/fellows/david-goldman/all#.UImcGYXah8Q), writes the "Spengler" column for Asia Times Online and the "Spengler" blog at PJ Media. He is also a columnist at Tablet, and contributes frequently to numerous other publications. [I]For more information on the JINSA Fellowship program, click here (http://www.jinsa.org/about-jinsas-visiting-fellows). For more information on the JINSA Fellowship program, click here (http://www.jinsa.org/about-jinsas-visiting-fellows).

http://www.ibtimes.com/kurdish-majority-turkey-within-one-generation-705466



A Kurdish Majority In Turkey Within One Generation?

ANALYSIS
By Palash Ghosh (http://www.ibtimes.com/reporters/palash-ghosh)@Gooch700 (http://www.twitter.com/Gooch700)
on May 06 2012 1:32 PM



http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/v2_article_large/public/2012/05/06/271083-kurds-in-southeastern-turkey.jpg


Kurds in southeastern Turkey. Reuters

Turkey is emerging as an economic superpower in the Eastern Mediterranean and Middle East with greater influence in regional politics. Promoting itself as a “model Muslim democracy,” and widely admired by other Middle Eastern nations, Turkey now faces a novel problem that Europe has long contended with: a falling birth rate.
Since the 1990s, Turkey’s fertility rate has steadily declined, due to, among other factors, rising household incomes, expanded access to higher education for women and increased birth control practices.“

The use of birth-control methods has increased in Turkey a lot, but that is not the only reason for the decline in population,” an obstetrician named Ka?an Kocatepe told Hürriyet Daily News, a Turkish newspaper.
“Many women want to have a successful career. That’s why the maternity age has increased, as women have started giving birth to their first child in their 30s.”
Indeed, Dr. ?smet Koç, a demographer at Hacettepe University in Ankara, warned that Turkey's fertility rate is now below 2.1, the replacement level, which suggests the population will eventually decline.
The fertility level in more prosperous western Turkey is now about 1.5 -- roughly the same as in western Europe.
The number of children produced by the average Turkish woman has plunged to two from three over just the past two decades, coincident with Turkey's rise as an economic power.
But there is a wrinkle to this whole phenomenon.
The Kurdish community of Turkey, which currently represents at least 15 percent of the population and dominates the southeastern region, has such a high birth rate, that some observers – most prominently Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan -- believe Kurds could become a majority in Turkey within two generations.
The proposed scenario is somewhat similar to the Palestinian situation in Israel, where Arabs could become the dominant ethnic group in the 'Jewish State' within 30 years or so; or the southwestern United States, where Hispanics and Mexican-Americans are likely to become the majority within a few decades.
According to Turkish government statistics, the average Kurdish woman in Turkey gives birth to about four children, more than double the rate for other Turkish mothers.
Thus, Turkey is facing a demographic time-bomb – Kurds, who tend to be concentrated in the country's impoverished southeast and are generally poorer and less educated, could conceivably outnumber Turks within about 30 years should present patterns persist.
Erdogan seems to be certain this will happen.
If we continue the existing trend, [the year] 2038 will mark disaster for us, Erdogan warned in May 2010.
The prime minister, who has repeatedly called on Turkish couples to have three children and even suggested financially rewarding such fecundity, once declared: “Our population is getting older. Right now we are proud of our young population, but if we don’t pull these numbers up, Turkey will be in a difficult position by 2038.”
Some Turkish academics scoff at Erdogan's solutions as unrealistic.
Cem Behar, an economics professor at Istanbul’s Bo?azici University, told the Hürriyet Daily News & Economic Review: “It’s clear that Turkey is going to face a decline in the growth rate of its population. Yet you cannot address such an issue by telling people to have more children.”
Behar added: “There is no family policy in Turkey. And I don’t think anyone is going to have more children just because [Erdo?an] told them to do so. If the government really wants to promote having more children, it needs to prepare the necessary conditions for it, such as lowering taxes for those families or strengthening pre-school education.”
A rapidly rising Kurdish population would pose sharp problems and challenges for the Turkish state and society.
Kurds have long faced discrimination, deprivation, even state-sponsored violence, throughout their long and epic residence in Turkey. As such, many Kurds seek a separate homeland, or at the least, autonomous self-rule in the southeast.
Kurds represent a dominant and highly contentious theme in Turkish politics.
For many years, it was, in fact, illegal for Kurds to speak their own language, use Kurdish names, play Kurdish music, etc. – part of a comprehensive attempt by Ankara to wipe out the separate ethnic identity of the Kurds. Indeed, some Turks regarded Kurds simply as 'Mountain Turks.'
The Kurdish Workers Party (PKK), a Marxist militant movement which Turkey, the European Union and the U.S. brand as a terrorist group, has fought for a separatist nation for decades. The PKK's periodic conflicts with the Turkish military have cost tens of thousands of lives on both sides – seemingly with no resolution in sight.
Of course, many, perhaps most, Kurds in Turkey do not support the PKK and seek to assimilate with mainstream Turkish society – while retaining their distinct Kurdish culture, language and customs.
Now, with the Kurds having more babies than the Turks, will Kurds really become a majority in a country where they have long suffered abuse and deprivation? And if that were to happen, how would that affect the Kurds' status in Turkey?
International Business Times spoke with an expert on Turkey and demographics to explore this topic.
Dr. Tino Sanandaji is a PhD in Public Policy at the University of Chicago who does research on demographic change and its link to policy.
IB TIMES: Is the overall fertility rate in Turkey declining because the country is becoming wealthier, household incomes are rising and more women are using birth control methods?
SANANDAJI: Yes, sooner or later this happens in all industrialized countries -- parents prefer to have fewer children and invest more time and resources on them rather than having a large family.
IB TIMES: The birth rate for Kurds is more than double that of Turks. Is this due to the fact that Kurds are generally poorer and less educated?
SANANDAJI: Poorer, less educated and more rural. However, other factors should not be ruled out since low-income Kurdish women also have higher birth rates than low-income Turkish women.
IB TIMES: Prime Minister Erdogan warned that Kurds could become a majority in Turkey by 2038. Is this a realistic prediction?
SANANDAJI: No, that is impossible. Demographic change is a slow process even when birth rates differ sharply, because so many generations are already born and will be around for decades.
In the 1930s, the Kurds constituted about 9 percent of the population of Turkey, and though they had higher birth rates than the Turks it still took until the 1990s until they reached the 18 percent level.
Since it takes a long time, underlying forces can change in the meanwhile. Therefore, we should be careful about extrapolating current trends into the future. Nor can demographic trends be dismissed using the equally silly argument that since demographic predictions were sometimes wrong in the past, all predictions are always wrong in the future. Plenty of predictions turned out to be accurate.
This is a sensitive topic to some. When people read that the population share of their “tribe” is shrinking there is often a primal psychological response of fear, anger or denial, and wide exaggerations in both directions.
IB TIMES: In the event Kurds become a majority in Turkey, will that render the Kurdish nationalist and separatist movements irrelevant and moot?
SANANDAJI: If history is any guide, that development would raise tensions with the Kurdish separatist movement, because they will be more likely to win a democratic or military struggle once they are the majority population.
IB TIMES: If the Kurds are becoming more assimilated, why is this even a problem? If the Ankara government does not even classify Kurds as a separate ethnic group, why would they even care about their higher birth rates?
SANANDAJI: If Kurds are slowly assimilating but growing their population share rapidly, the net effect might still be more voters with an ethnic Kurdish identity. Once Kurds realize time is working on their side, they might become less willing to abandon their national identity, anticipating that if they hold on long enough their sheer numbers will change the balance of power.
If the rate of assimilation into a national Turkish identity is sufficiently rapid, Turkey will not necessarily break apart. But Turkey will likely be a different country in many other ways if Kurds become the majority.
IB TIMES: What, if anything, is the Turkish government doing to prevent these demographic trends?
SANANDAJI: One choice is to try to stabilize the Turkish birth rate, though no country I am aware of has successfully done this in modern times.
A second alternative for the government is to convince the Kurds in Turkey to accept the Turkish national identity, making the population issue less important.
Another option is to lower the Kurdish birth rate by promoting economic development, education and women’s' health in Kurdish areas.
But if current trends continue for generations, Turks might eventually reach a point when they must reluctantly decide between keeping a smaller Turkish nation state or risk becoming the minority population in a Kurdish-majority Turkey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds_in_Turkey#Demographics


Most Kurds live in Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey), where their numbers are estimated at 14,000,000 people by the CIA world factbook (18% of population).[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds_in_Turkey#cite_note-31) A report commissioned by the National Security Council (Turkey) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Council_%28Turkey%29) in 2000 puts the number at 12,600,000 people, or 15.7% of the population. [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds_in_Turkey#cite_note-Milliyet-1) One Western source estimates that up to 25% of the Turkish population is Kurdish (approximately 18-19 million people).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds_in_Turkey#cite_note-Mackey-2) Kurdish nationalists put the figure at 20,000,000[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds_in_Turkey#cite_note-32) to 25,000,000.[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds_in_Turkey#cite_note-ekurd-33) All of the above figures are for the number of people who identify as Kurds, not the number who speak a Kurdish language, but include both Kurds and Zazas.[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds_in_Turkey#cite_note-34) Estimates based on native languages place the Kurdish population at 6% to 23%; Ibrahim Sirkeci (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_Sirkeci) claims the closest figure should be above 17.8%, taking into account political context and the potential biases in responses recorded in surveys and censuses.[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds_in_Turkey#cite_note-35) The population growth rate of Kurds in the 1970s was given as 3.27%.[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds_in_Turkey#cite_note-36) According to two studies (2006 and 2008) study by KONDA, people who self-identify as Kurdish or Zaza and/or speaks Kurmanji or Zazaki as a mother tongue correspond to 13.4% of the population. Based on higher birth rates among Kurdish people, and using 2000 Census results, KONDA suggested that this figure rises to 15.7% when children are included, at the end of 2007.[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds_in_Turkey#cite_note-KONDA-37)
Today, Kurdish populations remain highest in the traditionally Kurdish-majority regions of southeastern Turkey, corresponding with Turkish Kurdistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Kurdistan), as well as the more developed and industrialised northwestern provinces due to significant migration in the late 1980s. There are also Kurds in the Central Anatolia Region (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Anatolia_Region,_Turkey), concentrated to the west of Lake Tuz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Tuz) (Haymana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymana), Cihanbeyli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cihanbeyli), Kulu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulu,_Konya), Yunak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yunak)) and also scattered in districts like Alaca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaca), Çiçekdağı (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87i%C3%A7ekda%C4%9F%C4%B1), Yerköy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yerk%C3%B6y), Emirdağ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirda%C4%9F), and Zile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zile), as well as in significant to high numbers of the northeast, most importantly the large presence in Kars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kars) and surrounding provinces of the South Caucasus wherein many Kurdish villages scatter across the borders into Armenia and Georgia.
Since the immigration to the big cities in the west of Turkey, interethnic marriage has become more common. A recent study estimates that there are 2,708,000 marriages between Turks and Kurds/Zaza.[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds_in_Turkey#cite_note-38)

[Petros Houhoulis]

I prefer the Pakistani demographic weapon in Greece.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xs1T83Vn-8

The Turks and Kurds have lived together for over thousand years and have grown together to form one unit. Can it be said by the Greeks and Pakistanis that too?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Pakistani



<tbody>
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Flag_of_Saudi_Arabia.svg/23px-Flag_of_Saudi_Arabia.svg.png Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)
1,500,000+


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Flag_of_the_United_Arab_Emirates.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_United_Arab_Emirates.svg.png United Arab Emirates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_Emirates)
1,200,000+


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)
1,100,100+


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)
363,699


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cf/Flag_of_Canada.svg/23px-Flag_of_Canada.svg.png Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada)
155,310


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Flag_of_Kuwait.svg/23px-Flag_of_Kuwait.svg.png Kuwait (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuwait)
100,000


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Flag_of_Oman.svg/23px-Flag_of_Oman.svg.png Oman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oman)
85,000


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Flag_of_Qatar.svg/23px-Flag_of_Qatar.svg.png Qatar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar)
83,000


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Flag_of_Greece.svg/23px-Flag_of_Greece.svg.png Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece)
80,000


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France)
60,000


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Flag_of_Malaysia.svg/23px-Flag_of_Malaysia.svg.png Malaysia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia)
56,000


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany)
49,000


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9a/Flag_of_Spain.svg/23px-Flag_of_Spain.svg.png Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain)
47,000


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Flag_of_Bahrain.svg/23px-Flag_of_Bahrain.svg.png Bahrain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahrain)
45,000


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Flag_of_Norway.svg/21px-Flag_of_Norway.svg.png Norway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway)
39,134


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b9/Flag_of_Australia.svg/23px-Flag_of_Australia.svg.png Australia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia)
31,277


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Flag_of_Libya.svg/23px-Flag_of_Libya.svg.png Libya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya)
30,000


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Flag_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China.svg.png China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China)
27,000


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Flag_of_Denmark.svg/20px-Flag_of_Denmark.svg.png Denmark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark)
21,642


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg/23px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png Netherlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands)
19,408

</tbody>


Actually, the 3/4 of all Pakistanis in Greece are males. The vast majority have no Greek passports, and probably they won't get any.

They are already a nuisance of course, but Greece is tough on them. They do realize that they are not in their country...

[Alphawolf]

No one can live together with Paki's. Not even Paki's.

I have no clue. All i know is, Pakistanis have with Afghans and Nigerians the largest birth rate in the world. So, the Greeks should make rather worried about Greece, which has a population of 9 million. In addition, still, the emigration of ethnic Greeks come to that. The birth rate of Greeks is soon lower than the mortality rate in Greece.

[Hithaeglir]

I prefer the Pakistani demographic weapon in Greece.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xs1T83Vn-8

The Turks and Kurds have lived together for over thousand years and have grown together to form one unit. Can it be said by the Greeks and Pakistanis that too?

:puke:

[The Lawspeaker]

I have no clue. All i know is, Pakistanis have with Afghans and Nigerians the largest birth rate in the world. So, the Greeks should make rather worried about Greece, which has a population of 9 million. In addition, still, the emigration of ethnic Greeks come to that. The birth rate is soon lower than the mortality rate in Greece.

I know, right. Once the infection is there the best thing one can do is start deporting and decontaminating.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I have no clue. All i know is, Pakistanis have with Afghans and Nigerians the largest birth rate in the world. So, the Greeks should make rather worried about Greece, which has a population of 9 million. In addition, still, the emigration of ethnic Greeks come to that. The birth rate of Greeks is soon lower than the mortality rate in Greece.

Actually Greece is in a much better shape than Turkey. It has 11 million people, not 9, and the ethnic Greeks are 10 million. Furthermore, the Greeks can assimilate everybody, and since the vast majority of foreign ethnic groups in Greece are splintered, none can really dominate over the others instead of assimilating to the Greek culture. The result is that even those Pakistani immigrants who flee Greece keep speaking Greek to each other!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtkiQ4_koFc

We only have to deal with Islam, but man, you don't know Greece: It was created by killing and expelling Muslims, during the 19th and early 20th century...

[Rojava]

Kurds "from Turkey" number about 20 million:

DIYARBAKIR, Turkey's Kurdish region,— The Turkish Statistical Institute (TurkStat) recently published the birth records of Kurdish citizens in Turkey.

According to these records, there are 22,691,824 Kurds in Turkey, mostly born in Kurdish cities in the southeast of the country. Therefore, out of Turkey’s 74.7 million citizens, more than 30 percent are Kurds. These records only include people who have been registered at official government institutions.

After the founding of the Turkish Republic, the first census was carried out in 1927. According to that census, the Turkish population was 13,464,564. At that time, Serhat was the most populous Kurdish city with 38,000 residents. The second most populous city was Dilok.

Official census records show that the Kurdish population in 1927 was 2,323,359. This number increased to 3,850,723 in 1950, to 5,147,680 in 1960 and to 10,505,672 in 1990.

According to TurkStat, the number of Kurds in Kurdish cities of Turkey in 2000 was 12,751,808; in 2012, this number increased to 14,733,894.

There are 8,902 Kurdish villages, 108 towns and 275 districts, according to TurkStat.

In the 2000 census, only residents of Kurdish cities were taken into account. From 1990 to 1997, under the pretext of security measures, around 4,000 Kurdish villages were evacuated and destroyed. The villagers left for other Turkish towns, and thus were not taken into account in this census.



Rohat Alakom, a researcher and writer, said that there are 102 Kurdish villages in Ankara, 75 in Konya, 44 in Kirsehir, 17 in Aksaray, 41 in Yozgat-Tokat-Amasya, 23 in Kaysari and 26 in Cankiri and Kizilirmak. There are around 313 Kurdish villages in central Anatolia.

Additionally, a large number of Anatolian Kurds have fled to European countries. There are no official records of the number of the Kurds in central Anatolia, but it is estimated to be no less than 1 million people.

Kurdish researcher and historian Jalili Jalil has presented an important document related to the Gozanogullari that shows a 1888 message from Suleyman Beg, a Gozanogullari member, directed to the Russian ambassador in which he presented himself as a Kurd.

TurkStat also published the number of the migrants. The largest number of migrants appears to be those who left Mardin for Izmir. There are also many Adana migrants in Urfa, and Arzrum migrants in Bursa.

The real number of Kurds cannot be determined with these statistics, but can give an idea of the actual figures.

Not all those who were born in Kurdish cities are Kurds. There are many other ethnicities who live in Kurdish regions but have been counted as Kurds due to their place of birth.

But, taking 22.7 million as the number of Kurds and adding the 1 million who live in central Anatolia and other regions, then subtracting the number of citizens of other ethnicities who live in the Kurdish regions, leads to an acceptable figure of around 20 million.

Turkstat has published the census records of 81 provinces of Turkey. They include the place of birth and the number of the citizens.

The most populated cities of Turkey are Istanbul, Konya, Urfa, Diyarbakir and Izmir, consecutively. The least populated cities are Yalova, Bayburt and Bilecik. The least populated Kurdish cities are Kilis and Jolemerg.

By Mashallah Dakak, Rudaw

[legolasbozo]

Kurds in turkey is over 20 million? Kurds should be delusional, even they count people living in central anatolia for more than 100 years as "kurd." From my mother's father side i'm one of them and trust me i dont feel any affinity to kurdish culture or ethnicity. Even my grandfathers grandfather born and raised in central anatolia and they count those people as kurd. How muxh proportion of arvanites feel albanian? İ think this is your answer.

[Kiyant]

Kurds in turkey is over 20 million? Kurds should be delusional, even they count people living in central anatolia for more than 100 years as "kurd." From my mother's father side i'm one of them and trust me i dont feel any affinity to kurdish culture or ethnicity. Even my grandfathers grandfather born and raised in central anatolia and they count those people as kurd. How muxh proportion of arvanites feel albanian? İ think this is your answer.

They even say Ardahan is majority kurdish or "Kurdish territory" eventhough only 15% are Kurdish

[Rojava]

Butthurt Turks...

I see race is an issue then? Why can't Kurds not live in Central Anatolians and identify as Kurds? Most Kurds migrated further west less than 40 years ago, and not 100 years ago like legolasbozo was trying to point out.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Kurds in turkey is over 20 million? Kurds should be delusional, even they count people living in central anatolia for more than 100 years as "kurd." From my mother's father side i'm one of them and trust me i dont feel any affinity to kurdish culture or ethnicity. Even my grandfathers grandfather born and raised in central anatolia and they count those people as kurd. How muxh proportion of arvanites feel albanian? İ think this is your answer.

Well, the Albanians are not about to overrun Greece anytime soon. If anything, many of them have fled back to Albania because of the financial crisis, and since they speak Greek now, they scared the shit out of the Albanians!

In contrast, once the Kurds begin taking over, many with partial Kurdish origins shall start switching to Kurds for financial reasons alone. This is basically the difference between Greece and Turkey: Greece has no compact immigrant population threatening us, but Turkey has a very strong indigenous minority, never mind the Syrians and others who will turn you upside down - because you screwed up Syria after all, ever since you built the Ataturk Dam, remember???

[Anglojew]

Wow big news!

[Petros Houhoulis]

They even say Ardahan is majority kurdish or "Kurdish territory" eventhough only 15% are Kurdish

What the fuck do you know? You live in Germany after all... Go back to Turkey before the Kurds take over!

[wvwvw]

Kurds Face Historic Opportunity in Iraq Chaos

Forces from Iraq’s semi-autonomous Kurdish area to the north on Thursday seized control of Kirkuk, which they claim as their historical capital.

The move may inflame separatist sentiment among Kurds who form large minorities in adjoining areas of Turkey, Syria and Iran. That would likely make it far more difficult for Kurdish leaders to cede Kirkuk and its large oil deposits to the government in Baghdad – that is, if it survives the ISIL onslaught, said Wladimir van Wilgenburg, an expert on Iraq’s Kurds and columnist for the US-based Al Monitor website.

“It will mean that the Iraqi state has lost Kirkuk forever,” he said.

Ethnically and linguistically distinct from Iraq’s primarily Arab communities of Shiites and Sunnis, Kurds form close to 20 per cent of the country’s population of more than 32 million people.

The Kurds’ long-standing desire for independence has been fuelled by a history of repression, particularly in Iraq, where they have faced military assaults and chemical weapons attacks under the former dictator Saddam Hussein that rights groups have called acts of genocide. Under a policy of Arabisation, Saddam drove scores of Kurds from their homes in such strategic areas as Kirkuk.

The semi-autonomous Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) became a federal entity after the 2003 US invasion that deposed Saddam, with its seat in Erbil and authority over a mountainous homeland with an estimated 45 billion barrels of oil. But its remit does not officially include Kirkuk, which is the capital of the Kirkuk governorate that has an oilfield with about 10 billion barrels of proven reserves.

“If things unfold with the disintegration and partitioning of Iraq, you can bet that the Kurds will do their best to make Kirkuk part of their homeland,” said Labib Kamhawi, an independent political analyst in Amman.

With Iraq’s future territorial integrity increasingly in question, Hilal Khashan, professor of political science at the American University in Beirut, said the Kurd’s seizure of the city augurs more ambitious steps.

“This is a prelude to declaring statehood.”

Read more: http://www.thenational.ae/world/iraq/a-historic-opportunity-for-kurds-in-iraq-chaos#ixzz34ia1lfuO

[Kiyant]

What the fuck do you know? You live in Germany after all... Go back to Turkey before the Kurds take over!

Im not from Turkey you idiot :picard1:

[legolasbozo]

Butthurt Turks...

I see race is an issue then? Why can't Kurds not live in Central Anatolians and identify as Kurds? Most Kurds migrated further west less than 40 years ago, and not 100 years ago like legolasbozo was trying to point out.

H hahhahahaahahaha this is the most stupidest comment ever about central anatolian "kurds". Ankara (Haymana), konya (cihanbeyli and kulu) are the most "kurdish populated areas of central anatolia. You can see few bdp supporters from those areas on youtube because not everybody is assimilated that's for sure. And check last election results till the last village, see with your own eyes who won. And check "central anatolian kurds" on google, even you pankurdish websites would tell you when kurds fleed to central anatolia. Milli clan are located kulu and cihanbeyli, kocgiri clans located around haymana. Even the most famous mafia in ankara known as "kürd ahmet", he is from haymana restrict. Go ask him what he think about pkk, probably you would get a bullet on your forehead.

Edit: by the way you are talking about economic imigrancy to the western anatolia as referring "40 years ago" both are different cases. And i can assure you after 2-3 generations many of them would be integrated and assimilated very well. Go and check what's bdp vote in izmir, muğla, aydın etc.

[gültekin]

http://www.turkishclass.com/forumTitle_34916
If you expand towards more Kurdish lands, you'll become a majority Kurdish state much earlier... Why don't you try?
who told you that we towards more "Kurdish" land, ,is that what you understood u moron? ask this your kurdish boyfriend. I bet he will scream like a puppy dog.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqH5mg-CMAAo7II.jpg:large


Actually Greece is in a much better shape than Turkey. It has 11 million people, not 9, and the ethnic Greeks are 10 million. Furthermore, the Greeks can assimilate everybody, and since the vast majority of foreign ethnic groups in Greece are splintered, none can really dominate over the others instead of assimilating to the Greek culture. The result is that even those Pakistani immigrants who flee Greece keep speaking Greek to each other! ..

The Provisional Government of Western Thrace- Garbi Trakya Hükûmet-i Muvakkatesi, Greek: Προσωρινή Κυβέρνηση Δυτικής Θράκης, Prosorini Kyvernisi Dytikis Thrakis), later renamed to Independent Government of Western Thrace - Garbi Trakya Hükûmet-i Müstakilesi, Greek: Αυτόνομη Κυβέρνηση Δυτικής Θράκης, Avtonomi Kyvernisi Dytikis Thrakis), was a small, short-lived unrecognized republic established in Western Thrace from August 31 to October 25, 1913. It encompassed the area surrounded by the rivers Maritsa (Evros) in the east, Mesta (Nestos) in the west, the Rhodope Mountains in the north and the Aegean Sea in the south. Its total territory was c. 8.600 km². The population of the state was 500.000, of which 50% (250.000) were Greeks and the rest were Turks, Pomaks, Gypsies, Armenians, Jews and few Bulgarians.

This administration was created during the Second Balkan War by a joint rebellion of Turks, Greeks and Pomaks against the withdrawing Bulgarian forces who had recently annexed the region. It survived for 3 months, between two Balkan treaties: the May 1913 Treaty of London and the August 1913 Treaty of Bucharest that ended the Second Balkan War.

It was founded as a provisional state, in order to avoid Bulgarian rule. However, before 26 October, the area was captured by Bulgaria, according to the terms of the Treaty of Constantinople (1913), after the agreement with Ottoman Empire, and since Greece wasn't able to help.The area remained a part of Bulgaria until 1919 when it was taken under French protectorate. It was finally annexed by Greece in 1920 and has been part of that country ever since, except for the Bulgarian occupation between 1941-1944. Its capital was Gümülcine, now Komotini, in Greece.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/Ethnographic-map-Thrace-1912.jpg/800px-Ethnographic-map-Thrace-1912.jpg

Turkish Minority of Western Thrace

There are nearly 150,000 ethnic Turks living in Western Thrace in the north-eastern region of Greece. This community constitutes the Turkish Minority of Western Thrace whose status is established by the Lausanne Peace Treaty of 1923. The obligations assumed by Greece under "Section III" of this Treaty which deal with the protection of minorities, include the following basic rights and liberties:

Full and complete protection of life and liberty without distinction of birth, nationality, language, race or religion,

Free exercise of any creed, religion or belief,

Full freedom of movement,

The same civil and political rights as other Greek citizens,

Admission to public employment and offices,

The free use of any language in private relations, in commerce, religion, in the press or in publications of any kind or at public meetings,

The full protection of its religious foundations,

Equal rights to establish, manage and control at their own expense, any charitable, religious and social institutions, any schools and other establishments for instruction and education, with the right to use their own language and to exercise their own religion freely therein,

To take into regard for the Turkish Minority, in so far as this concerns family law or personal status, measures permitting the settlement of these questions in accordance with the customs of the Minority,

To grant all facilities and authorization to the pious foundations (Wakfs) and the religious and charitable institutions of the Minority.

Furthermore, these rights conferred to the Minority are recognized as fundamental laws by Greece. No law, no regulation, nor official action should conflict or interfere with these stipulations, nor should any law, regulation, nor official action prevail over them.

Thus, according to the Lausanne Peace Treaty, Greece is under the obligation to extend to the Turkish Minority in Western Thrace the same treatment and security as to other citizens of Greece.

What has happened in practice is very different. Ever since the signing of Treaty, except during the period between the l930's and the early l950's, there have been persistent and massive violations of human rights in Western Thrace. For years, the Greek authorities did not comply with obligations under Lausanne and other international treaties to which Greece is a party. Furthermore, the policies of the Greek authorities are contrary to the principles and values that have inspired the European Union, the principles of the Helsinki Final Act and the Paris Charter as well as other OSCE documents and declarations on the questions of minorities and even to the Constitution of the Greek State.

In breach of its international obligations and its own constitution, Greece has been pursuing discriminatory policies against the Turkish Minority in many aspect of their lives.

The ongoing repression they face in the field of education and religion particularly affects the lives of the Minority members. The members of the Minority lack the opportunity to educate their children properly. School buildings are in bad condition and it is not allowed to construct new school buildings. Qualified teachers are scarce. Only a limited number of students are admitted to Minority schools.

Currently, the educational standards of the Turkish Minority schools continue to remain lower than the average, mainly due to the excessive interference of the authorities. Although more details are available in the relevant section of this web site, it can be stated here that both the number and quality of the minority schools remain unsatisfactory due to the practice of the Greek administration. The requests of the Minority to open new schools have not been responded by the Greek authorities who, instead, recently introduced the practice of elective Turkish classes in Greek high schools. Obviously, this policy of elective Turkish classes cannot replace the right to minority education. Moreover, Greece unilaterally decided to reduce the number of Turkish teachers teaching at the Minority schools in Western Thrace. As another striking example of discriminatory Greek policies, although nine-year primary education is compulsory in Greece, this rule is not applicable to the children of the Turkish Minority. Their compulsory primary education is limited to six years.

The members of the Turkish Minority do not enjoy full freedom of religion. Because the religious institutions such as the office of the "Mufti" (the religious leader of the Turkish - Muslim Minority) and pious foundations "wakfs" are of fundamental importance to the existence of the Minority as a community, they are primary targets for the Greek authorities. They use all possible means to prevent the Minority to elect its Mufti and the trustees of its wakfs. By two presidential decrees dated December 25, 1990 and January 3, 1991, the Greek authorities have taken over the authority to nominate and appoint the Mufti and the trustees of the Wakfs.

Greece also attempted in the past to prosecute and jail the elected Muftis. Greece doesn’t still recognize the elected Muftis of the Turkish Minority, even though the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights (five in total) state that Greece violates the European Human Rights Convention in the context of religious freedom.

The unjustifiable interference in the religious affairs of the Minority by the Greek authorities may take various forms. In this respect, the Greek Government, in line with the Law adopted on 8 February 2007, is prepared to give cadres to 240 Imams who will be elected by a Council composed of Greek Government representatives. This policy is strongly objected by the Minority.

Two plain objectives of these oppressive Greek policies are to assimilate and in cases where not possible, to expel members of the Minority which they regard as a threat to the integrity of Greece. Accordingly, the members of the Minority are forced to emigrate from the region, and even to leave the country.

To some extent Greek authorities are successful in this policy. Despite the high population growth rate of the Minority, the Turkish population in the Western Thrace still remains at the same level as in the 1920s. Today, there should have been at least 800.000 Turks in the region instead of the current 150.000.

One instrument of the Greek authorities to reach their aim of reducing in numbers the Turkish population was article 19 of the Greek Citizenship Code, which stated that "a person of non-Greek ethic origin leaving Greece without the intention of returning may be declared as having lost Greek nationality...." This article, which was based on blatantly racial premises, was abused as a weapon to deprive the ethnic Turks of their citizenship. Over the years, thousands of members of the Minority lost their citizenship due to expulsion under this article. Today, despite the abrogation of Article 19 by the Greek Parliament, the suffering of the thousands of stateless minority members still persists for the abrogation is not retroactive according to the terms of the new legislation.

Another form of repression practiced by Greek authorities is the denial of ethnic identity of the Minority. The Greek government denies the existence of the Turkish Minority within its borders. The Turkish Minority is considered as a religious minority rather than an ethnic or a national one. But, the Minority members regard themselves as "Turks" and demand the right to be called "Turkish". The Greek authorities prohibit the use of the word "Turkish". The minority associations like the "Turkish Teachers Association", "Komotini Turkish Youth Association" were closed down for using the word "Turkish" in their titles and signboards. The Greek courts outlawed the use of the word "Turkish" and in 1988 the Greek High Court affirmed a 1986 decision of the Court of Appeals in this regard with the argument that the use of the word "Turkish" to describe Greek Moslems was endangering public order.

In this context, the banning of the Turkish Minority associations; namely, the “Western Thrace Turkish Teacher’s Union”, the “Komotini Turkish Youth Association” and the “Turkish Union of Xanthi” has continued until today. Following the exhaustion of the internal remedies, the case concerning the banning of the Turkish Union of Xanthi was taken to the ECHR by the Minority. Also the efforts to establish the “Rodopi Turkish Woman Association” and the “Evros Prefecture Minority Youth Association” proved futile based on the same pretexts of the Greek authorities and these cases were also taken to the ECHR by the Minority.

Lastly, The European Court of Human Rights expressed its decision, in a press release dated 11 October 2007, regarding the “Evros Prefecture Minority Youth Association”, to which Greek authorities failed to give the necessary permission. The Court held unanimously that there had been a violation of Article 11 (freedom of assembly and association) of the European Convention on Human Rights. The decision became effective as of 11 January 2008.

The European Court of Human Rights also expressed its decision concerning the “Turkish Union of Xanthi” and the “Rodopi Turkish Women’s Association” on 27 March 2008.

The Court held unanimously that there had been a violation of Article 11 (freedom of assembly and association) of the European Convention on Human Rights in both aforementioned cases. The Court also held unanimously that there had been a violation of Article 6 & 1 (right to a fair hearing within a reasonable time) of the Convention. In the case of the “Turkish Union of Xanthi”, the Court awarded the said association 8000 Euros in respect of non-pecuniary damage.

These decisions once again prove the restrictions imposed by the Greek administration not only on the freedom of assembly and association but also on the right to express ethnic identity.

The destruction of the Ottoman/Turkish cultural heritage constitutes another grave violation of the rights of the Turkish Minority which also has a direct bearing on the future cultural existence of the Minority. Greek authorities refrain from undertaking restoration or repair works and the cultural heritage is left in destruction.

The members of the Turkish Minority live in the least developed region of not only Greece but also Europe. The socio-economic underdevelopment of the region where mostly Turks live is a direct consequence of the implemented economic and social policies. Minority members are not able to utilize the EU funds as it should be. The lack of qualified educational opportunities in the region aggravates the economic problems faced by the Minority. Moreover, it is of urgent importance that the Minority is provided with alternate means of employment and economic survival in the near future in the face of the envisaged cut in subventions provided by the EU to tobacco producers. This is so because the Turkish Minority has remained heavily depended on tobacco production for economic survival largely due to the restrictive and discriminatory economic policies of Greece towards the Minority.

Greece has announced in February 2007 that a quota of 0.5 % would be granted to the Turkish Minority in Western Thrace in the exams conducted for the recruitment of public servants. This is yet to be fulfilled.

Turkey has no intention of creating a Minority problem for Greece. Turkey only wants to see the Minority to enjoy its rights recognized by international treaties and to live in peace as equal Greek citizens.

We firmly believe that Greece, in line with its international obligations, should be urged to take measures in order to restore the rights and freedoms of the Turkish Minority in Western Thrace.

What is transpiring in Western Thrace is a clear violation of human rights. It is unacceptable and inconceivable that the members of a minority can be subject to such treatment in a country which is a member of the OSCE, Council of Europe and the European Union.

A detailed study of discriminatory treatment meted out to the Turkish Minority in Western Thrace is presented under several headings at the incoming pages.

[Rojava]

H hahhahahaahahaha this is the most stupidest comment ever about central anatolian "kurds". Ankara (Haymana), konya (cihanbeyli and kulu) are the most "kurdish populated areas of central anatolia. You can see few bdp supporters from those areas on youtube because not everybody is assimilated that's for sure. And check last election results till the last village, see with your own eyes who won. And check "central anatolian kurds" on google, even you pankurdish websites would tell you when kurds fleed to central anatolia. Milli clan are located kulu and cihanbeyli, kocgiri clans located around haymana. Even the most famous mafia in ankara known as "kürd ahmet", he is from haymana restrict. Go ask him what he think about pkk, probably you would get a bullet on your forehead.

Edit: by the way you are talking about economic imigrancy to the western anatolia as referring "40 years ago" both are different cases. And i can assure you after 2-3 generations many of them would be integrated and assimilated very well. Go and check what's bdp vote in izmir, muğla, aydın etc.

lol....

I was talking about ethnic Kurds in Turkey, not who supports BDP or PKK :lol: I didn't even say Central Anatolia was Kurdish, but everyone knows Kurdish clans are present there. Lol you must be on your period.

[The Lawspeaker]

lol....

I was talking about ethnic Kurds in Turkey, not who supports BDP or PKK :lol: I didn't even say Central Anatolia was Kurdish, but everyone knows Kurdish clans are present there. Lol you must be on your period.

Just a bad case of PMS.

[legolasbozo]

lol....

I was talking about ethnic Kurds in Turkey, not who supports BDP or PKK :lol: I didn't even say Central Anatolia was Kurdish, but everyone knows Kurdish clans are present there. Lol you must be on your period.


The thing is they reach 20 million as counting "central anatolian kurds" you understood?

[Petros Houhoulis]

Im not from Turkey you idiot :picard1:

Then why are you a supporter of the MHP's nuclear fascists? You are a Muzzie anyway, get the fuck out of Europe...

[gültekin]

Then why are you a supporter of the MHP's nuclear fascists? You are a Muzzie anyway, get the fuck out of Europe...
is europe happy with a unemployed beggar like u petrros , i don't think so.

[Rojava]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqH5mg-CMAAo7II.jpg:large

Without Peshmerga, Turkomans would have been massacred by ISIS:

http://i62.tinypic.com/2j64kmw.png

[The Lawspeaker]

is europe happy with a unemployed beggar like u petrros , i don't think so.

Let me give you an honest answer: rather him than you. :thumb001: When Greece recovers it will be a civilised European nation but Turkey will never be a civilised European nation.

[Rojava]

The thing is they reach 20 million as counting "central anatolian kurds" you understood?

Then what are they? Turks? If they did not identify themselves as Kurds, then they would not have been included in the number.

[The Lawspeaker]

You wanted your honest answer and you got it. Now don't get all upset, "gultekin". You will never be part of the European family because you aren't family.

[legolasbozo]

Then what are they? Turks? If they did not identify themselves as Kurds, then they would not have been included in the number.

They are a part of "Turkish nation" like creten, bosniak, pomak, lezgin, abhaz ethnics. With local anatolians, turkomans, türkmens we are a part of this nation. Even a kurd immigrated to izmir 30 years ago free to feel belong to this nation.

Edit: i misunderstood your post and yes, they add those people to the poll and reach that number.

[gültekin]

Let me give you an honest answer: rather him than you. :thumb001: When Greece recovers it will be a civilised European nation but Turkey will never be a civilised European nation.
you nd your boyfrend petrrros have been very good manners, swearing to girls and supporting each other.
you two fit exactly to your shithole countrys. yeah very civilized two happy swinefucker

[Petros Houhoulis]

who told you that we towards more "Kurdish" land, ,is that what you understood u moron? ask this your kurdish boyfriend. I bet he will scream like a puppy dog.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqH5mg-CMAAo7II.jpg:large



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/55/Ethnographic-map-Thrace-1912.jpg/800px-Ethnographic-map-Thrace-1912.jpg

Turkish Minority of Western Thrace

There are nearly 150,000 ethnic Turks living in Western Thrace in the north-eastern region of Greece. This community constitutes the Turkish Minority of Western Thrace whose status is established by the Lausanne Peace Treaty of 1923. The obligations assumed by Greece under "Section III" of this Treaty which deal with the protection of minorities, include the following basic rights and liberties:

Full and complete protection of life and liberty without distinction of birth, nationality, language, race or religion,

Free exercise of any creed, religion or belief,

Full freedom of movement,

The same civil and political rights as other Greek citizens,

Admission to public employment and offices,

The free use of any language in private relations, in commerce, religion, in the press or in publications of any kind or at public meetings,

The full protection of its religious foundations,

Equal rights to establish, manage and control at their own expense, any charitable, religious and social institutions, any schools and other establishments for instruction and education, with the right to use their own language and to exercise their own religion freely therein,

To take into regard for the Turkish Minority, in so far as this concerns family law or personal status, measures permitting the settlement of these questions in accordance with the customs of the Minority,

To grant all facilities and authorization to the pious foundations (Wakfs) and the religious and charitable institutions of the Minority.

Furthermore, these rights conferred to the Minority are recognized as fundamental laws by Greece. No law, no regulation, nor official action should conflict or interfere with these stipulations, nor should any law, regulation, nor official action prevail over them.

Thus, according to the Lausanne Peace Treaty, Greece is under the obligation to extend to the Turkish Minority in Western Thrace the same treatment and security as to other citizens of Greece.

What has happened in practice is very different. Ever since the signing of Treaty, except during the period between the l930's and the early l950's, there have been persistent and massive violations of human rights in Western Thrace. For years, the Greek authorities did not comply with obligations under Lausanne and other international treaties to which Greece is a party. Furthermore, the policies of the Greek authorities are contrary to the principles and values that have inspired the European Union, the principles of the Helsinki Final Act and the Paris Charter as well as other OSCE documents and declarations on the questions of minorities and even to the Constitution of the Greek State.

In breach of its international obligations and its own constitution, Greece has been pursuing discriminatory policies against the Turkish Minority in many aspect of their lives.

The ongoing repression they face in the field of education and religion particularly affects the lives of the Minority members. The members of the Minority lack the opportunity to educate their children properly. School buildings are in bad condition and it is not allowed to construct new school buildings. Qualified teachers are scarce. Only a limited number of students are admitted to Minority schools.

Currently, the educational standards of the Turkish Minority schools continue to remain lower than the average, mainly due to the excessive interference of the authorities. Although more details are available in the relevant section of this web site, it can be stated here that both the number and quality of the minority schools remain unsatisfactory due to the practice of the Greek administration. The requests of the Minority to open new schools have not been responded by the Greek authorities who, instead, recently introduced the practice of elective Turkish classes in Greek high schools. Obviously, this policy of elective Turkish classes cannot replace the right to minority education. Moreover, Greece unilaterally decided to reduce the number of Turkish teachers teaching at the Minority schools in Western Thrace. As another striking example of discriminatory Greek policies, although nine-year primary education is compulsory in Greece, this rule is not applicable to the children of the Turkish Minority. Their compulsory primary education is limited to six years.

The members of the Turkish Minority do not enjoy full freedom of religion. Because the religious institutions such as the office of the "Mufti" (the religious leader of the Turkish - Muslim Minority) and pious foundations "wakfs" are of fundamental importance to the existence of the Minority as a community, they are primary targets for the Greek authorities. They use all possible means to prevent the Minority to elect its Mufti and the trustees of its wakfs. By two presidential decrees dated December 25, 1990 and January 3, 1991, the Greek authorities have taken over the authority to nominate and appoint the Mufti and the trustees of the Wakfs.

Greece also attempted in the past to prosecute and jail the elected Muftis. Greece doesn’t still recognize the elected Muftis of the Turkish Minority, even though the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights (five in total) state that Greece violates the European Human Rights Convention in the context of religious freedom.

The unjustifiable interference in the religious affairs of the Minority by the Greek authorities may take various forms. In this respect, the Greek Government, in line with the Law adopted on 8 February 2007, is prepared to give cadres to 240 Imams who will be elected by a Council composed of Greek Government representatives. This policy is strongly objected by the Minority.

Two plain objectives of these oppressive Greek policies are to assimilate and in cases where not possible, to expel members of the Minority which they regard as a threat to the integrity of Greece. Accordingly, the members of the Minority are forced to emigrate from the region, and even to leave the country.

To some extent Greek authorities are successful in this policy. Despite the high population growth rate of the Minority, the Turkish population in the Western Thrace still remains at the same level as in the 1920s. Today, there should have been at least 800.000 Turks in the region instead of the current 150.000.

One instrument of the Greek authorities to reach their aim of reducing in numbers the Turkish population was article 19 of the Greek Citizenship Code, which stated that "a person of non-Greek ethic origin leaving Greece without the intention of returning may be declared as having lost Greek nationality...." This article, which was based on blatantly racial premises, was abused as a weapon to deprive the ethnic Turks of their citizenship. Over the years, thousands of members of the Minority lost their citizenship due to expulsion under this article. Today, despite the abrogation of Article 19 by the Greek Parliament, the suffering of the thousands of stateless minority members still persists for the abrogation is not retroactive according to the terms of the new legislation.

Another form of repression practiced by Greek authorities is the denial of ethnic identity of the Minority. The Greek government denies the existence of the Turkish Minority within its borders. The Turkish Minority is considered as a religious minority rather than an ethnic or a national one. But, the Minority members regard themselves as "Turks" and demand the right to be called "Turkish". The Greek authorities prohibit the use of the word "Turkish". The minority associations like the "Turkish Teachers Association", "Komotini Turkish Youth Association" were closed down for using the word "Turkish" in their titles and signboards. The Greek courts outlawed the use of the word "Turkish" and in 1988 the Greek High Court affirmed a 1986 decision of the Court of Appeals in this regard with the argument that the use of the word "Turkish" to describe Greek Moslems was endangering public order.

In this context, the banning of the Turkish Minority associations; namely, the “Western Thrace Turkish Teacher’s Union”, the “Komotini Turkish Youth Association” and the “Turkish Union of Xanthi” has continued until today. Following the exhaustion of the internal remedies, the case concerning the banning of the Turkish Union of Xanthi was taken to the ECHR by the Minority. Also the efforts to establish the “Rodopi Turkish Woman Association” and the “Evros Prefecture Minority Youth Association” proved futile based on the same pretexts of the Greek authorities and these cases were also taken to the ECHR by the Minority.

Lastly, The European Court of Human Rights expressed its decision, in a press release dated 11 October 2007, regarding the “Evros Prefecture Minority Youth Association”, to which Greek authorities failed to give the necessary permission. The Court held unanimously that there had been a violation of Article 11 (freedom of assembly and association) of the European Convention on Human Rights. The decision became effective as of 11 January 2008.

The European Court of Human Rights also expressed its decision concerning the “Turkish Union of Xanthi” and the “Rodopi Turkish Women’s Association” on 27 March 2008.

The Court held unanimously that there had been a violation of Article 11 (freedom of assembly and association) of the European Convention on Human Rights in both aforementioned cases. The Court also held unanimously that there had been a violation of Article 6 & 1 (right to a fair hearing within a reasonable time) of the Convention. In the case of the “Turkish Union of Xanthi”, the Court awarded the said association 8000 Euros in respect of non-pecuniary damage.

These decisions once again prove the restrictions imposed by the Greek administration not only on the freedom of assembly and association but also on the right to express ethnic identity.

The destruction of the Ottoman/Turkish cultural heritage constitutes another grave violation of the rights of the Turkish Minority which also has a direct bearing on the future cultural existence of the Minority. Greek authorities refrain from undertaking restoration or repair works and the cultural heritage is left in destruction.

The members of the Turkish Minority live in the least developed region of not only Greece but also Europe. The socio-economic underdevelopment of the region where mostly Turks live is a direct consequence of the implemented economic and social policies. Minority members are not able to utilize the EU funds as it should be. The lack of qualified educational opportunities in the region aggravates the economic problems faced by the Minority. Moreover, it is of urgent importance that the Minority is provided with alternate means of employment and economic survival in the near future in the face of the envisaged cut in subventions provided by the EU to tobacco producers. This is so because the Turkish Minority has remained heavily depended on tobacco production for economic survival largely due to the restrictive and discriminatory economic policies of Greece towards the Minority.

Greece has announced in February 2007 that a quota of 0.5 % would be granted to the Turkish Minority in Western Thrace in the exams conducted for the recruitment of public servants. This is yet to be fulfilled.

Turkey has no intention of creating a Minority problem for Greece. Turkey only wants to see the Minority to enjoy its rights recognized by international treaties and to live in peace as equal Greek citizens.

We firmly believe that Greece, in line with its international obligations, should be urged to take measures in order to restore the rights and freedoms of the Turkish Minority in Western Thrace.

What is transpiring in Western Thrace is a clear violation of human rights. It is unacceptable and inconceivable that the members of a minority can be subject to such treatment in a country which is a member of the OSCE, Council of Europe and the European Union.

A detailed study of discriminatory treatment meted out to the Turkish Minority in Western Thrace is presented under several headings at the incoming pages.

Basically, the minority is Muslim. Some 35% are Pomaks (speaking Bulgarian) and 15% Gypsies. The rest are morons like you.

Furthermore, all of the "oppression" that you cite is pure bullcrap. There is no massacres or anything against these people, unlike what the Turks have done all of their lifetimes. Especially this though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemvriana


The Istanbul pogrom, also known as the Istanbul riots or September events (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Σεπτεμβριανά Septemvriana, "Events of September"; Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language): 6–7 Eylül Olayları, "Events of September 6–7"), was organized mob (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angry_mob) attacks directed primarily at Istanbul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul)'s Greek minority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Turkey) on 6–7 September 1955. The pogrom was orchestrated by the Turkish government under Prime Minister Adnan Menderes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adnan_Menderes). The events were triggered by the false news that the Turkish consulate in Thessaloniki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaloniki), in northern Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece)—the house where Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk) had been born in 1881—had been bombed the day before.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemvriana#cite_note-guven1-4) A bomb planted by a Turkish usher at the consulate, who was later arrested and confessed, incited the events. The Turkish press, almost fully under Menderes' control, conveying the news in Turkey, was silent about the arrest and instead insinuated that Greeks had set off the bomb.
A Turkish mob, most of which had been trucked into the city in advance, assaulted Istanbul’s Greek community for nine hours. Although the mob did not explicitly call for Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks) to be killed, over a dozen people died during or after the attacks as a result of beatings and arson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arson). Armenians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians) were also harmed.
The pogrom greatly accelerated emigration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emigration) of ethnic Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_Greeks) from Turkey, and the Istanbul region in particular. The Greek population of Turkey declined from 119,822 persons in 1927,[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemvriana#cite_note-Tsilenis-5) to about 7,000 in 1978. In Istanbul alone, the Greek population decreased from 65,108 to 49,081 between 1955 and 1960.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemvriana#cite_note-Tsilenis-5) The 2008 figures released by the Turkish Foreign Ministry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Foreign_Affairs_%28Turkey%29) place the current number of Turkish citizens of Greek descent at 3,000–4,000;[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemvriana#cite_note-6) however, according to Human Rights Watch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Watch), the Greek population in Turkey was estimated at 2,500 in 2006.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemvriana#cite_note-HRW-7)
The Georgian community in Istanbul was also targeted. It is estimated that there were about 10,000 Catholic Georgian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Byzantine-Rite_Catholics) residents in Istanbul in 1955. Most of the Georgians emigrated to Australia, Canada, Europe and the United States following the pogrom. As of 1994, there were only about 200 Catholic Georgians and a handful of Jewish Georgian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_Jews) families left in Istanbul.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemvriana#cite_note-8) [9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemvriana#cite_note-mater-9)
Some see the attacks as a continuation of a process of Turkification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkification) that started with the decline of the Ottoman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_Ottoman_Empire),[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemvriana#cite_note-ergil-10)[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemvriana#cite_note-kuyucu-11)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemvriana#cite_note-holland-12) rather than being a contemporary, bilateral issue. To back this claim they adduce the fact that roughly 40% of the properties attacked belonged to other minorities.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemvriana#cite_note-guven1-4) Historian Alfred-Maurice de Zayas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred-Maurice_de_Zayas) has written that in his view, despite the small number of pogrom, the riots met the "intent to destroy in whole or in part" criterion of the Genocide Convention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention).[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemvriana#cite_note-alfredbkp-13)



As you can see, all of my claims are properly sourced, unlike the bullcrap you make out of your arse all of the time. What we are doing with Greek citizens is none of your business, especially when you shoot your own people at random ('rrrDOGan) you let them perish for all sort of silly reasons, out of gross negligence (mining and earthquake disasters) and so on...

[The Lawspeaker]

you nd your boyfrend petrrros have been very good manners, swearing to girls and supporting each other.
you two fit exactly to your shithole countrys. yeah very civilized two happy swinefucker

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/120/955/butthurt.jpg

[gültekin]

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/120/955/butthurt.jpg
http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/shut-the-fuck-up-you-swine.png

[Rojava]

They are a part of "Turkish nation" like creten, bosniak, pomak, lezgin, abhaz ethnics. With local anatolians, turkomans, türkmens we are a part of this nation. Even a kurd immigrated to izmir 30 years ago free to feel belong to this nation.

Good for you, but these Anatolian Kurds identify themselves as Kurds and that's why they were included. If they supporters of the Turkish state or a "unified Turkey", that's a completely different issue. You can't change your ethnic group, but you can be a of a different nationality.

[Petros Houhoulis]

The thing is they reach 20 million as counting "central anatolian kurds" you understood?

Do these people maintain any trace of Kurdish culture or identity? Is it possible for them to swing back to Kurdishness? I'm not quite sure you can rule that out...

[The Lawspeaker]

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/shut-the-fuck-up-you-swine.png
You really shouldn't spend so much time in the Turkish bath, you know. You know what kind of reputation they have here ? As a place where flikkers get their arses sore. This explains why you're so butthurt all the time.

[Petros Houhoulis]

is Europe happy with a unemployed beggar like u Petrros , i don't think so.

I've never been a beggar all of my life shithead. Furthermore, when you write Europe, you should write it with a capital E, alright you little pisspoor bastard?

[legolasbozo]

Good for you, but these Anatolian Kurds identify themselves as Kurds and that's why they were included. If they supporters of the Turkish state or a "unified Turkey", that's a completely different issue. You can't change your ethnic group, but you can be a of a different nationality.

İf you would come turkey anytime, just tell me. We can visit central anatolian "kurdish villages" and you can see with your own eyes. İ m living among these people for god's sake and my family is one of them partly! The thing is turkish government do not count these people as kurds or they dont themselves as well, just pan-kurdish website and bdp/pkk count those people as kurd to portray kurdish population overestimate and for their own agenda.

[gültekin]

You really shouldn't spend so much time in the Turkish bath, you know. You know what kind of reputation they have here ? As a place where flikkers get their arses sore. This explains why you're so butthurt all the time.
and you should still take more marijuana u junkie.go to the reflective your brain . afterwards you can talk and bang with your boyfrend petrros further. have fun

[Petros Houhoulis]

They are a part of "Turkish nation" like creten, bosniak, pomak, lezgin, abhaz ethnics. With local anatolians, turkomans, türkmens we are a part of this nation. Even a kurd immigrated to izmir 30 years ago free to feel belong to this nation.

Edit: i misunderstood your post and yes, they add those people to the poll and reach that number.

Yeah, sure sure... The Pomaks being part of the Turkish nation... The question was about ethnii anyway, not nations. You have to understand the difference between the two, because some day you might be an ethnic Turk of a wider Kurdish nation...

[The Lawspeaker]

and you should still take more marijuana u junkie.go to the reflective your brain . afterwards you can talk and bang with your boyfrend petrros further. have fun

You are a sucker for punishment, are you ? Is that what you go the baths for ? A decent flogging by your boyfriends and some hardcore anal ? Geez. No wonder you're so butthurt. And then you want us to take you seriously ? Come on: piss off. :thumb001: Grow up first, will you.

[Hithaeglir]

Let me give you an honest answer: rather him than you. :thumb001: When Greece recovers it will be a civilised European nation but Turkey will never be a civilised European nation.

Just a random question.An economical crisis makes you uncivilised,and after recovering you get civilised again?I just don't understand the logic behind it.

[Rojava]

İf you would come turkey anytime, just tell me. We can visit central anatolian "kurdish villages" and you can see with your own eyes. İ m living among these people for god's sake and my family is one of them partly! The thing is turkish government do not count these people as kurds or they dont themselves as well, just pan-kurdish website and bdp/pkk count those people as kurd to portray kurdish population overestimate and for their own agenda.

The source is not pro PKK but I stand by my initial point, but it really doesn't make much of a difference. Either way the Kurdish population in Turkey numbers around the 20 million mark. That's about 15-20% of the population. So lets just agree to disagree? Because we are not gaining anything from this.

[The Lawspeaker]

Just a random question.An economical crisis makes you uncivilised,and after recovering you get civilised again?I just don't understand the logic behind it.
No no. A civilised European nation in being being just like us: functioning system of government, functioning welfare state etc. Now Greece is going through a rough phace. Doesn't make them any less European - just.. depressed. We were still European during the 1930s - but civilised ?

[gültekin]

I've never been a beggar all of my life shithead. Furthermore, when you write Europe, you should write it with a capital E, alright you little pisspoor bastard?
i talking with you . how much are you selling for your smelly ass u foolish beggar

[The Lawspeaker]

i talking with you . how much are you selling for your smelly ass u foolish beggar

He is not like you. Don't measure him to your standards. Because he is not butthurt like you. Maybe you're the one selling your arse ? So what kind of job do you do ? Schandknaap ?

[legolasbozo]

Do these people maintain any trace of Kurdish culture or identity? Is it possible for them to swing back to Kurdishness? I'm not quite sure you can rule that out...

There are pro-kurds among those people i give you that, bdp supporters etc. A.f.a.i.k in sweeden there are immigrants from konya kulu and cihanbeyli and mostly pkk supporter. Another case few of them portrsy themselves as kurd but not any affinity for pkk. But most of them are insaparerable from turkish identity.

[Hithaeglir]

No no. A civilised European nation in being being just like us: functioning system of government, functioning welfare state etc. Now Greece is going through a rough phace. Doesn't make them any less European - just.. depressed. We were still European during the 1930s - but civilised ?

Then the right word to describe what you said is an "organised/functional" state.Civilised is something different.

[The Lawspeaker]

Then the right word to describe what you said is an "organised/functional" state.Civilised is something different.

I think the word "beschaafd" (civilised) has a different meaning here. I wouldn't call Greece "civilised" at the moment. Depressed, fucked up ? Yes. Part of the family ? Definitely. Remember: we once were where you are now. It sure as hell wasn't fun. During the 1930s, after WW2 and during the 1980s. I wouldn't have called us civilised.

[gültekin]

He is not like you. Don't measure him to your standards. Because he is not butthurt like you. Maybe you're the one selling your arse ?
talk to microphon you moron. no one cares about you two fags., unemployment benefit eating parasites

[wvwvw]

Then the right word to describe what you said is an "organised/functional" state.Civilised is something different.

That is part of being civilized though

[The Lawspeaker]

talk to microphon you moron. no one cares about you two fags., unemployment benefit eating parasites

Yap. I think we've found a genuine schandknaap here.

[Petros Houhoulis]

i talking with you . how much are you selling for your smelly ass u foolish beggar

Μολών Λαβέ...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_h9hbo1UREh8/TUCENFdD25I/AAAAAAAABUg/24DERghFdVw/s1600/%25CE%259B.jpg

Come and get it!

You can find my address in the information box, under my avatar, but you won't be finding your penis if you come...

[Hithaeglir]

That is part of being civilized though

Being civilized has a deeper meaning,than just functioning politics and economy.

[Rojava]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Iraq_war_detailed_map

[Petros Houhoulis]

There are pro-kurds among those people i give you that, bdp supporters etc. A.f.a.i.k in sweeden there are immigrants from konya kulu and cihanbeyli and mostly pkk supporter. Another case few of them portrsy themselves as kurd but not any affinity for pkk. But most of them are insaparerable from turkish identity.

As long as the Turks prevail, they shall be hiding, but the question is what they will do if Turkey starts losing its' grasp upon the Kurds... It would be a gamble to predict their reaction at that point, because we already know that Turkey is receding. Take a look at Kemaliste who wants Turkey divided in three for example... Turkey could be held together by force, just like the Middle East. Once violence is not an option, or some other proves more violent than the Turkish state, it's gonna be game over...

[Hithaeglir]

I think the word "beschaafd" (civilised) has a different meaning here. I wouldn't call Greece "civilised" at the moment. Depressed, fucked up ? Yes. Part of the family ? Definitely. Remember: we once were where you are now. It sure as hell wasn't fun. During the 1930s, after WW2 and during the 1980s. I wouldn't have called us civilised.

I agree with depressed and fucked up.They describe the situation perfectly.I just thought that the word civilised/uncivilised didnt fit the current situation.

[The Lawspeaker]

Being civilized has a deeper meaning,than just functioning politics and economy.

Then what is your definition ?


Is this civilisation ?

http://www.geschiedenis24.nl/.imaging/stk/geschiedenis/zoom/media/geschiedenis/30-april-1980-3/original/30%20april%201980%203.jpg

http://onsverleden.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/staking-huisvuilophalers-1983.png?w=652

http://bartversteegfotograaf.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/831102staking1.jpg?w=774



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_yW9kBVSzpn8/TNbnhNEtaaI/AAAAAAAAABs/mUW_LC-vQPM/s1600/Vondelstraat+jaren+80.jpg

http://www.geschiedenis24.nl/.imaging/stk/geschiedenis/zoom/media/geschiedenis-import/andere-tijden/2010/November/44188698/original/44188698.jpeg

http://weblogs.nrc.nl/schinkel/files/2009/11/WerkloosheidB448.jpg


Would you call what we had during the 1980s "civilisation" ? I wouldn't.
☭Communist_Karker☭ (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?8373-%E2%98%ADCommunist_Karker%E2%98%AD)
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/statusicon/user-online.png zouden wij dit hier beschaving noemen ?

[Rojava]

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/10481174_756482644395411_8537156742744949957_n.jpg

If this is true then Barzani is expected to declare independence soon. I'm not sure if it is official though.

[gültekin]

Μολών Λαβέ...
Come and get it!
You can find my address in the information box, under my avatar, but you won't be finding your penis if you come...
you stupid fagot, i don't care our smelly ass i'm not a buttheard gay like you. do you have still a penis ? bad fore you ladyboy. I hope you can a lot of earn money if you sell yourself.

[The Lawspeaker]

So, We must Kill kurds like Saddam did! i support :)

And every time you send soldiers to do that they tend to end up dead ? What did that bring you ? Coffins.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I think the word "beschaafd" (civilised) has a different meaning here. I wouldn't call Greece "civilised" at the moment. Depressed, fucked up ? Yes. Part of the family ? Definitely. Remember: we once were where you are now. It sure as hell wasn't fun. During the 1930s, after WW2 and during the 1980s. I wouldn't have called us civilised.

I think that he can't grasp that the term civilized is not an exact translation of the word πολιτισμένος. You have a better grasp of the English language. Civilization precludes a properly organized state...

[Hithaeglir]

Then what is your definition ?


Is this civilisation ?

http://www.geschiedenis24.nl/.imaging/stk/geschiedenis/zoom/media/geschiedenis/30-april-1980-3/original/30%20april%201980%203.jpg

http://onsverleden.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/staking-huisvuilophalers-1983.png?w=652

http://bartversteegfotograaf.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/831102staking1.jpg?w=774



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_yW9kBVSzpn8/TNbnhNEtaaI/AAAAAAAAABs/mUW_LC-vQPM/s1600/Vondelstraat+jaren+80.jpg

http://www.geschiedenis24.nl/.imaging/stk/geschiedenis/zoom/media/geschiedenis-import/andere-tijden/2010/November/44188698/original/44188698.jpeg

http://weblogs.nrc.nl/schinkel/files/2009/11/WerkloosheidB448.jpg


Would you call what we had during the 1980s "civilisation" ? I wouldn't.
☭Communist_Karker☭ (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?8373-%E2%98%ADCommunist_Karker%E2%98%AD)
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/statusicon/user-online.png zouden wij dit hier beschaving noemen ?

It looks like a recession and people striking.I don't see anything "uncivilised".More like a bad moment in your history.

[The Lawspeaker]

I think that he can't grasp that the term civilized is not an exact translation of the word πολιτισμένος. You have a better grasp of the English language. Civilization precludes a properly organized state...
I think that the English and Dutch meaning of the word are basically much the same. Civilisation means: organisation, decent behaviour, social justice etc. Not just from citizens but also from business and the state. The rule of law.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Being civilized has a deeper meaning,than just functioning politics and economy.

The deeper meaning is a respect for the rule of law that permeates all levels of society. Either we like it or not, when the Greek people vote convicted criminals as mayors (Chronopoulos at Zaharo, Mpeos at Volos, e.t.c.) we have not grasped this essential component of civilization. We shouldn't fool ourselves!

[The Lawspeaker]

It looks like a recession and people striking.I don't see anything "uncivilised".More like a bad moment in your history.

A bad moment in our history ? More like 10 years of hell. A lost decade and a lost generation. The 1980s were our worst decade since WWII: strikes, riots (tanks in the streets of Amsterdam in 1980 and in Nijmegen in 1981 with anarchists running amuk), the national strikes of 1982 and 1983, the demonstrations against the placing of cruise missiles, the far-left advocating extra-parlementarian actions (even terrorism) against the state and against those who didn't do exactly what they wanted. 800.000 unemployed at a population of 14 million etc. If there is one word to cover that entire decade it would not just be fear but angst. Existential fear. Angst that only ended after the big release (UEFA Euro 1988) and particularly after the collapse of the Berlin Wall.

[SKYNET]

Panem et circenses (bread and circus)! Watch only in "A European Cultural Community".

[Hithaeglir]

I think that he can't grasp that the term civilized is not an exact translation of the word πολιτισμένος. You have a better grasp of the English language. Civilization precludes a properly organized state...

I didn't deny that the word includes the necessity of a properly organised state as well as a functioning economy.My main point was that it goes even beyond the social life and characterizes people's actions as private beings as well.Just that.

And maybe you are right,i was thinking of the greek word but i find it normal since when you learn a language,you tend to associate it with your native one.

[The Lawspeaker]

I didn't deny that the word includes the necessity of a properly organised state as well as a functioning economy.My main point was that it goes even beyond the social life and characterizes people's actions as private beings as well.Just that.

And maybe you are right,i was thinking of the greek word but i find it normal since when you learn a language,you tend to associate it with your native one.

That's just one aspect. It goes a little bit deeper than that. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civilization)


civ·i·li·za·tion [siv-uh-luh-zey-shuhhttp://static.sfdict.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://static.sfdict.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngn] Show IPA
noun 1. an advanced state of human society, in which (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/which) a high level of culture (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/culture), science, industry, and government has been reached.

2. those people or nations that have reached such a state.

3. any type of culture, society, etc., of a specific place, time, or group: Greek civilization.

4. the act or process of civilizing (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civilize) or being civilized (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civilize): Rome's civilization of barbaric tribes was admirable.

5. cultural refinement; refinement of thought and cultural appreciation: The letters of Madame de Sévigné reveal her wit (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wit) and civilization.

[gültekin]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqG3ZCzCQAIlaSA.jpg
There is something that no one expected. whait and watch.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqH5mg-CMAAo7II.jpg:large
Horses don't die when the dogs want to
Tanrı Türk'ü korusun
http://www.gultekinparlak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Irak-T%C3%BCrkleri-Susmayacakt%C4%B1r.jpg
http://www.bursadazaman.com.tr/resimler/20131207_578166.jpg

[StonyArabia]

Kurdistan is probably going to be used by Turkey to counter Iranian influence that's probably why there is support for it's independence. It will be Turkey's proxy state.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I agree with depressed and fucked up.They describe the situation perfectly.I just thought that the word civilised/uncivilised didnt fit the current situation.

Nobody used the term uncivilized. We are in the threshold, and contrary to the wishes of Golden Dawn, there's no civil war brewing. We are striving hard to keep their little lies contained in this very forum, and I think that we are succeeding purely because we are able to prove that we can hold the line against all neighboring ethnii and nations which are trying to breach our defenses, by utilizing nothing beyond the truth, and this is enough to carry the day. Hopefully we shall be able to do the same all over Greece, and I think that our efforts can have a positive outcome.

[Hithaeglir]

That's just one aspect. It goes a little bit deeper than that. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civilization)

Ok :lol: I already read this.
I'm tired of quoting XD I have to go back to my studying :rolleyes: Have a good afternoon people!

[The Lawspeaker]

Ok :lol: I already read this.
I'm tired of quoting XD I have to go back to my studying :rolleyes: Have a good afternoon people!

Enjoy ! :)

[Petros Houhoulis]

So, We must Kill kurds like Saddam did! i support :)

You cannot defeat free people!

I very much doubt you can match their females in combat!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRsw5s28jxY

[Alphawolf]

Kurdistan is probably going to be used by Turkey to counter Iranian influence that's probably why there is support for it's independence. It will be Turkey's proxy state.

That's how it is.




Resurgent Turkey Flexes Its Muscles Around Iraq

Erbil, the Kurdish capital in the north where Mr. Said lives, has become the nexus of Turkish politics and business, made possible by the sharp edge of military power.

About 15,000 Turks work in Erbil and other parts of the north, and Turkish companies, more than 700 of them, make up two-thirds of all foreign companies in the region. Travel requirements have been lifted, and the consulate in Erbil issues as many as 300 visas a day. A Turkish religious movement operates 19 schools in the region, educating 5,500 students, Arabs, Turkmens and Kurds mingling in a lingua franca of English.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/05/world/middleeast/05turkey.html?pagewanted=all

[gültekin]

You cannot defeat free people!

I very much doubt you can match their females in combat!

and afterwards when thes bitches are caught. chirping like a canary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtveYjWg96k

[StonyArabia]

^ I know for a fact that Turkey was opposed to let Kirkuk in Kurdish hands, which was originally a Turkmen city and considered the capital and heart of Turkmenali. Thus when the Kurds were able to get it, without Turkish interference and the support for an independent Kurdistan is in reality to form a proxy state and counter Iran, though it's influence is not strong as it once was.

[legolasbozo]

As long as the Turks prevail, they shall be hiding, but the question is what they will do if Turkey starts losing its' grasp upon the Kurds... It would be a gamble to predict their reaction at that point, because we already know that Turkey is receding. Take a look at Kemaliste who wants Turkey divided in three for example... Turkey could be held together by force, just like the Middle East. Once violence is not an option, or some other proves more violent than the Turkish state, it's gonna be game over...


İn turkey, thing is not work as you imagined. İ mean a person who has kurdish background but not any affinity to this ethnicity, then you cant count him as a kurd, because he doesnt have any potential to be a part of this "independent kurdistan" issue and more than half of those "kurds" are like that. İ assure you, even among pkk supporters they dont support independent kurdistan within türkish overpopulated cities, because if this happen, they know very well they would be confronted with "visa" and they would live in turkey as a foreign. Let put aside held demonstrations on the istanbul streets, they would take into custody for implausible reasons and deported to their homeland. Kemalist do not want confederation system in Turkey, they just not happy with current situation and after gülen operation to erdoğan, erdoğan doesnt make any noise for private life issues or alchool because he just want to exterminate gülen and its organization. So everything is just normal nowadays.

Edit: by the way i support independent kurdistan in iraq, they would be our satellite and win-win situation. They just can transport their oil via turkey Thus both could be richer additionally they can spend their money in eagen and mediterranean shore. İ bet greece would lift visas for kurdistan citizens to attract them, do they petros?

[Petros Houhoulis]

http://www.gultekinparlak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Irak-T%C3%BCrkleri-Susmayacakt%C4%B1r.jpg
http://www.bursadazaman.com.tr/resimler/20131207_578166.jpg

So you managed to assemble 9 Turkmen fighters? Not even 10?

[gültekin]

So you managed to assemble 9 Turkmen fighters? Not even 10?
wait and watch you foolish faggot. you have forgotten the lessons

[Petros Houhoulis]

Kurdistan is probably going to be used by Turkey to counter Iranian influence that's probably why there is support for it's independence. It will be Turkey's proxy state.

Kurdistan shall be Turkeys' proxy state until Turkey becomes Kurdistans' proxy state, if not just Kurdistan...

[Petros Houhoulis]

That's how it is.

I don't see Turkish soldiers in Iraq...

...Even the schools teach in English...

[legolasbozo]

Kurdistan shall be Turkeys' proxy state until Turkey becomes Kurdistans' proxy state, if not just Kurdistan...

ok man whatever flow your boat, i surrendered :)

[Furnace]

go

[Petros Houhoulis]

and afterwards when thes bitches are caught. chirping like a canary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtveYjWg96k

Despite your melodramatic bullshit, an entire Turkey cannot defeat the PKK...

Youtube is not education, with the exception of professionally made documentaries...

[gültekin]

I don't see Turkish soldiers in Iraq...

...Even the schools teach in English...
no one is talking here about Turkish soldiers in Iraq you moron. you know you're an fully idiot, right?
http://www.kerkuk.net/eng/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqG3ZCzCQAIlaSA.jpg

[Alphawolf]

I don't see Turkish soldiers in Iraq...

...Even the schools teach in English...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieVi7uB4IaM


The age of weapons belongs to the past. The war will take place today at higher level. Ranging from economic dependence to linguistic assimilation. The Turks have shown in Greece, how to overthrow a state to bankruptcy by arms race.

[Alphawolf]

Despite your melodramatic bullshit, an entire Turkey cannot defeat the PKK...

Youtube is not education, with the exception of professionally made documentaries...

The PKK serves as a protective barrier for Turkish interests in Syria. If you saw the elections in Turkey, a good 95 percent of Kurds have chosen Pro Turkish parties.

[Petros Houhoulis]

İn turkey, thing is not work as you imagined. İ mean a person who has kurdish background but not any affinity to this ethnicity, then you cant count him as a kurd, because he doesnt have any potential to be a part of this "independent kurdistan" issue and more than half of those "kurds" are like that. İ assure you, even among pkk supporters they dont support independent kurdistan within türkish overpopulated cities, because if this happen, they know very well they would be confronted with "visa" and they would live in turkey as a foreign. Let put aside held demonstrations on the istanbul streets, they would take into custody for implausible reasons and deported to their homeland. Kemalist do not want confederation system in Turkey, they just not happy with current situation and after gülen operation to erdoğan, erdoğan doesnt make any noise for private life issues or alchool because he just want to exterminate gülen and its organization. So everything is just normal nowadays.

Edit: by the way i support independent kurdistan in iraq, they would be our satellite and win-win situation. They just can transport their oil via turkey Thus both could be richer additionally they can spend their money in eagen and mediterranean shore. İ bet greece would lift visas for kurdistan citizens to attract them, do they petros?

While the Kurds are fewer than the Kurds, you shall have the upper hand. Once the Kurds gain numerical superiority, the various minorities shall change tune and support a Kurdish state over a Turkish state. Turkey is far from homogeneous...

Officially the Kemalists don't want a confederation system, but many in the Aegean coast are shifting to that idea. It will take time until the new ideas overtake the calcified shell of what we call Kemalism, but as long as 'rrrDOGan reigns supreme, they shall be shifting very swiftly, until all of them start thinking like Kemaliste.

The Kurds indeed do not want an independent Kurdistan, because they plan to take over all of Turkey, and then they won't need any visas.

The E.U. won't grant free visas to the Kurds, unless if their oil turns them as much rich as the fellas in U.A.E. If they are only as rich as the Saudis, they won't get free visas...

[gültekin]

I do not wonder that some butthurt faggots defend the terrorists. that doesn't matter. dogs can barking anyway
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bpylyk_IMAA9Der.jpg

[Alphawolf]

Officially the Kemalists don't want a confederation system, but many in the Aegean coast are shifting to that idea. It will take time until the new ideas overtake the calcified shell of what we call Kemalism, but as long as 'rrrDOGan reigns supreme, they shall be shifting very swiftly, until all of them start thinking like Kemaliste.

The Kurds indeed do not want an independent Kurdistan, because they plan to take over all of Turkey, and then they won't need any visas.

The E.U. won't grant free visas to the Kurds, unless if their oil turns them as much rich as the fellas in U.A.E. If they are only as rich as the Saudis, they won't get free visas...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwjp0OcWWEE

[gültekin]

While the Kurds are fewer than the Kurds, you shall have the upper hand. Once the Kurds gain numerical superiority, the various minorities shall change tune and support a Kurdish state over a Turkish state. Turkey is far from homogeneous...

Officially the Kemalists don't want a confederation system, but many in the Aegean coast are shifting to that idea. It will take time until the new ideas overtake the calcified shell of what we call Kemalism, but as long as 'rrrDOGan reigns supreme, they shall be shifting very swiftly, until all of them start thinking like Kemaliste.

The Kurds indeed do not want an independent Kurdistan, because they plan to take over all of Turkey, and then they won't need any visas.

The E.U. won't grant free visas to the Kurds, unless if their oil turns them as much rich as the fellas in U.A.E. If they are only as rich as the Saudis, they won't get free visas...
hahahahaha malaka

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q6DFDXyKeA

[Petros Houhoulis]

ok man whatever flow your boat, i surrendered :)

Look, when the Ottoman state started up, it was the proxy state of the East Roman empire. Later the East Roman empire turned into the proxy state of the Ottoman empire, until the East Roman empire was no more. What I describe is not something unheard of in history...

[Petros Houhoulis]

wait and watch you foolish faggot. you have forgotten the lessons

The reason we are lashing out at you is that we have not forgotten the lessons. You don't get any lessons though: All of your navy and air force are in the Aegean right now, but the next target might be Ankara, instead of Reyhanli... Prepare for annihilation...

[gültekin]

The reason we are lashing out at you is that we have not forgotten the lessons. You don't get any lessons though: All of your navy and air force are in the Aegean right now, but the next target might be Ankara, instead of Reyhanli... Prepare for annihilation...
hahaha foolish faggots. read my sig
http://www.itusozluk.com/image/kibris-baris-harekati_306338.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDjaMDgGjDo

[Petros Houhoulis]

no one is talking here about Turkish soldiers in Iraq you moron. you know you're an fully idiot, right?
http://www.kerkuk.net/eng/

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqG3ZCzCQAIlaSA.jpg

Well, if you don't send troops in Iraq, the Kurds shall have a free hand in there...

[Petros Houhoulis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieVi7uB4IaM


The age of weapons belongs to the past. The war will take place today at higher level. Ranging from economic dependence to linguistic assimilation. The Turks have shown in Greece, how to overthrow a state to bankruptcy by arms race.

You didn't manage to create either a better economy than the Greek economy, nor to get an inch of Greek soil. Furthermore, the E.U. is transforming into a superstate, and you are being left outside. Once we manage to create a defence pact, and get rid of the Yankees and NATO, you are finished...

As for the linguistic assimilation, don't make me laugh. The Kurds retain their identity even without to maintain their language. They have suffered too much to forget...

[gültekin]

You didn't manage to create either a better economy than the Greek economy, nor to get an inch of Greek soil. Furthermore, the E.U. is transforming into a superstate, and you are being left outside. Once we manage to create a defence pact, and get rid of the Yankees and NATO, you are finished...

As for the linguistic assimilation, don't make me laugh. The Kurds retain their identity even without to maintain their language. They have suffered too much to forget...
http://s17.postimg.org/x1mzq5esv/erik.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q6DFDXyKeA

[Linet]

Gulte.... why you like putting a video which is actualy fake? :chin:
Thats your best shot? :eyes ...the end of your arguements? :eusa_eh:

[gültekin]

http://s29.postimg.org/6uowyiwl3/oranges_reach_bag_athens_1_n_300x224.jpg
A fruit and vegetable handout in Greece led to one man being trampled on Wednesday, calling attention to the desperate conditions in the crisis-hit country. Some 55 tons of produce was given away by farmers who were protesting high production costs.

The person was injured when he was pushed by a crowd trying to grab the goods and fell and hit his head.

The chaos was sparked when food stalls ran out of fruits and vegetables, prompting dozens of people to rush to a nearby truck.

It was an “every man for himself” situation as the Greeks shoved their way to the front of the truck, competing for the food that was left. The 55 tons of food was completely gone in under two hours.

A Reuters employee at the scene was hit on the head with cauliflower heads as he attempted to photograph the situation.Kostas Barkas, a lawmaker from the leftist Syriza party, told Reuters.

Other Greek lawmakers said the situation showed images

“of people on the brink of despair” and the sense of “sadness for a proud people who have ended up like this.”

It’s a reality that many Greek citizens find hard to comprehend.

“It’s difficult. I never imagined that I would end up here,” 65-year-old Panagiota Petropoulos said. “I can’t afford anything, not even at the fruit market. Everything is expensive, prices of everything are going up while our income is going down and there are no jobs,” she continued.

- See more at: http://www.thedailysheeple.com/man-trampled-as-hundreds-of-desperate-greeks-scuffle-for-food_022013#sthash.m0AM4MJt.dpuf

http://media.dunyabulteni.net/250x190/2013/04/19/yardim.jpg
Greece – The Crisis & Hunger
http://www.bubblews.com/assets/images/news/1290521276_1360333467.jpg
:horn::ftitanic:

You didn't manage to create either a better economy than the Greek economy, nor to get an inch of Greek soil.

[Kiyant]

This Thread cant be saved.............

[Alphawolf]

http://s29.postimg.org/6uowyiwl3/oranges_reach_bag_athens_1_n_300x224.jpg
A fruit and vegetable handout in Greece led to one man being trampled on Wednesday, calling attention to the desperate conditions in the crisis-hit country. Some 55 tons of produce was given away by farmers who were protesting high production costs.

The person was injured when he was pushed by a crowd trying to grab the goods and fell and hit his head.

The chaos was sparked when food stalls ran out of fruits and vegetables, prompting dozens of people to rush to a nearby truck.

It was an “every man for himself” situation as the Greeks shoved their way to the front of the truck, competing for the food that was left. The 55 tons of food was completely gone in under two hours.

A Reuters employee at the scene was hit on the head with cauliflower heads as he attempted to photograph the situation.Kostas Barkas, a lawmaker from the leftist Syriza party, told Reuters.

Other Greek lawmakers said the situation showed images

“of people on the brink of despair” and the sense of “sadness for a proud people who have ended up like this.”

It’s a reality that many Greek citizens find hard to comprehend.

“It’s difficult. I never imagined that I would end up here,” 65-year-old Panagiota Petropoulos said. “I can’t afford anything, not even at the fruit market. Everything is expensive, prices of everything are going up while our income is going down and there are no jobs,” she continued.

- See more at: http://www.thedailysheeple.com/man-trampled-as-hundreds-of-desperate-greeks-scuffle-for-food_022013#sthash.m0AM4MJt.dpuf

http://media.dunyabulteni.net/250x190/2013/04/19/yardim.jpg
Greece – The Crisis & Hunger
http://www.bubblews.com/assets/images/news/1290521276_1360333467.jpg
:horn::ftitanic:


Adamlarin acliktan agizlari kokuyor, ama havalarindan yanlarina varilamiyor. Cok ilginc bir durum. ;)

[Linet]

I wont deny that there are Greeks among them as well :hrm00000: but if i had to guess 1/10 would be Greek and the rest immigrants http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/062/5/c/homeless_emoticon_by_lilileap20-d78tsjw.gif

[wvwvw]

The quality of life in Greece still is much better than in gypsyland Turkey which is an endless slum

The best and worst country to live in:
Greece #27
Turkey #86
http://www.worst-city.com/The-best-and-worst-country-to-live-in-countries-to-avoid.htm

In the same site we learn that turkogypos have some of the worst slums in the world

on top of poverty, honor killings and child bride marriages, they also have problems with dog rapes

Stop the rape of poor defensless animals.
Turkish Dogs, Rape and Brutal Slaughter. Homeless pets have been left to the Mamak dumping ground by the municipalities
https://www.causes.com/campaigns/36216-stop-the-rape-of-poor-defensless-animals

Justice for the dog brutally raped and killed in Sincan Turkey
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Justice-for-the-dog-brutally-raped-and-killed-in-Sincan-Turkey/198793526807906

[Petros Houhoulis]

hahaha foolish faggots. read my sig
http://www.itusozluk.com/image/kibris-baris-harekati_306338.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDjaMDgGjDo

Well, Ciller couln't gain an inch of Greek soil, but she did manage to bring the Turkish state into bankruptcy... First the bankruptcy of "Istanbul Bankasi" which was owned by her husband costed the Turkish economy the 1% of the Turkish GDP, and her actions were the prelude of the Turkish financial crisis of 2001...

http://www.ipsnews.net/1996/04/turkey-politics-ciller-on-the-edge-the-government-too/


TURKEY-POLITICS: Ciller on the Edge, the Government Too By IPS Correspondents (http://www.ipsnews.net/author/ips-correspondents/) Reprint (http://www.ipsnews.net/reprinting-articles/) | | http://cdn.ipsnews.net/wp-content/themes/ipsnews/images/printer.png?fcebfb Print (http://www.ipsnews.net/1996/04/turkey-politics-ciller-on-the-edge-the-government-too/#) | Send by email
Nadire Mater
ISTANBUL, Apr 26 1996 (IPS) - Former prime minister Tansu Ciller’s carefully cultivated image as a fresh face in Turkey’s labyrinthian world of wheeler-dealer politics is being blemished by corruption and conflict of interest charges.

Not long ago a symbol of power capable of always having her own way, Ciller was this week fighting for her political survival. If she goes down, the government could also collapse. Another election would follow — and a repeat of the sequence of uncertainty and frantic deal-making that is the usual post- elections scenario.
This week, by a margin of 232-179, parliament voted to set up a commission to investigage corruption charges against Ciller. The motion was brought by pro-Islamic Welfare Party (RP). It alleged the former prime minister was involved in contract irregularities at Tedas, the state-owned electrocity company during her time in office from 1993-1995.
Thursday, after a long meeting, Ciller’s True Path party (DYP) decided to continue in the coalition cobbled together with the Motherland Party (ANAP of Mesut Yilmaz, who currently holds the rotating prime ministertership.
The deal was for Ciller to take over as prime minister in January 1997.
Ciller stressed in a statement Thursday her party would continue in the coalition “because we want to serve the people.” She accused the Motherland Party of wanting to form a new union with the Welfare Party (RP) “in order to prevent my turn as prime minister”.

Political experts say even if the Tedas files do not really incriminate Ciller, they could lead to the prosecution of other bureaucrats and badly tarnish the image Ciller, who is a relative newcomer to politics.
Many deputies from the Motherland Party apparently voted in favor of the investigation, thus undermining the credibility and vitality of the ruling coalition.
And Parliament is to vote on May 9 on another Welfare Party motion for an inquest into the privatization of the state shares in automotive concerns.
The allegation involves the Privatization Board — the state agency charged with privatization. When it opened a tender to sell state-owned shares of the car giant Tofas, Ciller, then prime minister, alleged asked for the sealed bids to be brought to her residence. She opened them and decided by herself on award of the contract, according to these charges.
Ciller, 52, entered politics in the 1991 October general elections after leaving her career as economics professor at Bosphoros University. She was named a state minister for economics. In June 1993 she became prime minister, a post she held until February 1996.
The daughter of a civil servant, Ciller married her husband Ozer, a shopkeeper’s son, when they were both high school students. Afterwards the Cillers studied in the United States. They lived a “poor but happy student-life in a small room and with not money enough even for a Coke”, Ciller said of those times.
But Ozer Ciller is now wealthy businnesman. He was general manager of a private Istanbul bank that went bankrupt in the 1980s. The circumstances of the bankruptcy are still being thrashed out in court actions brought against Ozer Ciller.
The Cillers have several pieces of real estate in the United States. During the last general election campaign in November 1995, negative publicity over this led Ciller to promise to donate her property to a foundation. This has not been done.
Ciller has also been forced to answer questions concerning property in Turkey. The Cillers own luxury villas both on the Boshporus in Istanbul and in Antalya by the Mediterranean coast.
Last year the media published reports about a farm in Kusadasi that officially belonged to Ciller’s assistant Suna Pelister, a retired worker with a modest monthly income of 120 U.S. dollars.
Some newspapers suggested Tansu and Ozer Ciller were the actual owners since Pelister’s wealth would not have been enough even for buying a small flat. More bitter columns were written over allegations that the private electric and water networks and roads to the farm were built by the state.
Recently the daily Hurriyet reported that Suna Pelister had sold the farm to the Ciller family for 150,000 doolars, considered a low price. The couple accepted that they bought the farm but said there was nothing wrong with the action.
Ciller said last week the corruption charges directed at political parties and their leaders were casting a shadow on Parliament and the country’s political regime. She called for legal arrangements which would empower independent courts to investigate such charges.
“Charges against politicians should be investigated by the Court of Appeals, and trials, if any, should be held at the same court,” she suggested. Welfare Party leader Necmettin Erbakan interpreted her suggestions as a political maneuver in order to avoid judiciary.
“Turkey has to find deep-rooted solution to clean it’s name and become a country where corruption and irregularities are odd events rather than a part of daily life,” says Ilnur Cevik of Ankara based, English language Turkish Daily News.
“Instead of strongly opposing parliamentary probes, Tansu Ciller is obliged to demand investigations be launch to clear her name. To vote open the investigation against Ciller provides us a ray of hope that there were some people in Parliament who feel strongly about Turkey’s reputation as a land of corruption,” Cevik believes.
Under Turkish law, a Parliamentary Commission established by 15 deputies will prepare a report on the claims against Ciller within two months. Then the assembly will decide whether or not to send the matter to the constitutional court.
If found guilty, the former prime minister could be jailed for one year or a year and a half.

[gültekin]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/23/us-greece-heating-idUSTRE7AM25S20111123
(Reuters) - Once a symbol of poverty, the lowly wood burning stove is making a comeback among cash-strapped Greeks horrified by the soaring costs of central heating as winter begins.
Even the wealthiest Greeks are turning to the kind of basic heating methods that most people haven't used in decades as an economic crisis deepens, taxes rise and temperatures drop.
Costas Mitsionis who sells wood-burning stoves at the central Athens Monastiraki market, rubs his hands with glee as he talks about the doubled demand for his product. His tiny shop is bursting at the seams with stoves in all colors and shapes precariously piled on top of one another almost to the ceiling.
"Business is up 100 percent," said Mitsionis, 42, constantly interrupted by phone calls from clients. "Everybody is flocking to buy, poor and rich alike -- this crisis has put the fear of God into everyone."
In a desperate move to plug its fiscal holes and meet its budget targets under an EU/IMF bailout, the government has hiked energy taxes, driving heating oil costs up to 40 percent higher.
In addition, a flurry of taxes due this fall, including a property levy slapped on electricity bills and a one-off "solidarity" income tax, means many cash-strapped families are facing hundreds or even thousands of euros in extra bills in the first months of winter.
This is when Greeks, most of whom live in apartment buildings, must pay to fill the diesel-fired boilers for the building's central heating. Many residents are declining to pay their share of the heating oil bill, forcing building managers to cancel or slash orders to a minimum.
"I have switched off the central heating and use nothing but the stove instead," said Theodora Doukiri, 39, a cleaning lady in Athens. Her husband was fired from his retail job a few months ago and the whole family depends on her wages of 1,000 euros a month to make ends meet.
"There's no way I could afford heating oil. Now I'm spending just 60 euros a month on wood and the house is like an oven," she added.
With many following her example, building managers are often putting central heating on for just 2-3 hours, usually in the evening, if at all. The rest of the day each family is left to fend for itself, using electric heaters, air conditioners or wood stoves to heat their immediate surroundings.
"People used to heat their houses but now they're just trying to warm their feet," said Mary Lardi, who runs a fuel supply service to residential customers. "We've been in business since 1974 and things have never been so bad."
BURNING ISSUE
It's hard to avoid talk of this latest national obsession, with one web site luring Internet surfers by offering heating oil coupons as prizes and a recent TV talk show interviewing Greeks in their 20s on how they manage to live in apartments without any heating.
For a lot of people, wood seems the most attractive alternative option for providing cheap heat.
Stoves that can warm 50 square metres of space are on sale for about 250 euros ($330). Some 1.5 tonnes of firewood, which can get an average household through three months of winter, costs about 260 euros, compared with about 1,000 euros for heating oil over the same period
"That's a good deal, even rich households in Athens's posh seaside suburbs have increased orders," said Tasos Mitropoulos, who runs a firewood business near Athens.
The government also added its own fuel to the wood-burning fire on Nov 8 when it lifted a ban on the household use of pellets, a type of wood fuel made from compacted sawdust.
Government officials in northern Greece say foresters are selling firewood at discount prices to help poor villagers in remote areas and imports from neighboring Bulgaria have soared.
But there is also a backlash on environment as increased wood consumption seems to be boosting illegal logging and pollution, officials and environmentalists said.
"Police recently arrested five illegal logging squads in just one swoop," said Costas Voliotis, who lives near Pelion, central Greece, one of the country's most richly forested mountains.
Three big cities in the country's colder north, Larisa, Volos and Thessaloniki, have also reported higher pollution levels this week and increased smog has been reported in some parts of Athens.
"We stopped hanging our laundry outside - it's getting dark from all the soot," said Vassilis Tozios, 36, an accountant who lives in the working class district of Kolonos.

Greece ordered 100 thousand stove from Turkey.
http://www.bubblews.com/assets/images/news/1290521276_1360333467.jpg
https://translate.google.com.tr/translate?sl=tr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=tr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hurriyet.com.tr%2Fekonomi%2F218 03425.asp&edit-text=&act=url

[Petros Houhoulis]

http://s17.postimg.org/x1mzq5esv/erik.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q6DFDXyKeA

You don't seem to quit your bad habits, do you?

http://et0.xhamster.com/t/320/6_b_566320.jpg

Anyway, as I said, the Greek GDP/capita (PPP) is way better than the Turkish GDP/capita (PPP)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita


International Monetary Fund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Monetary_Fund) (2013)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita#cite _note-3)


<tbody>
42

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Flag_of_Greece.svg/23px-Flag_of_Greece.svg.png Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece)
24,012

</tbody>

<tbody>
67

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Flag_of_Turkey.svg/23px-Flag_of_Turkey.svg.png Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey)
15,353

</tbody>

World Bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Bank) (2011–2012)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita#cite _note-4)


<tbody>
38

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Flag_of_Greece.svg/23px-Flag_of_Greece.svg.png Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece)
26,041
2012

</tbody>


<tbody>
56

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Flag_of_Turkey.svg/23px-Flag_of_Turkey.svg.png Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey)
18,551
2012

</tbody>

Central Intelligence Agency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Intelligence_Agency) (1993–2013)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita#cite _note-5)


<tbody>
47

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Flag_of_Greece.svg/23px-Flag_of_Greece.svg.png Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece)
23,600
2013 <small>est</small>

</tbody>


<tbody>
71

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Flag_of_Turkey.svg/23px-Flag_of_Turkey.svg.png Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey)
15,300
2013 <small>est.</small>

</tbody>


Keep masturbating with pictures, the reality is evidently different from what you dream...

[Petros Houhoulis]

This Thread cant be saved.............

With the morons you have, Turkey can't be saved...

[gültekin]

Greece support terrorists

http://s15.postimg.org/ilousjhnf/image.jpg
http://www.ozguncel.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/bebek-katili-ev-hapsi-b%C3%BClent-ar%C4%B1n%C3%A7.jpg
http://www.netkeyfim.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/ocalan-yakalanma.jpg

[gültekin]

http://s29.postimg.org/6uowyiwl3/oranges_reach_bag_athens_1_n_300x224.jpg
A fruit and vegetable handout in Greece led to one man being trampled on Wednesday, calling attention to the desperate conditions in the crisis-hit country. Some 55 tons of produce was given away by farmers who were protesting high production costs.

The person was injured when he was pushed by a crowd trying to grab the goods and fell and hit his head.

The chaos was sparked when food stalls ran out of fruits and vegetables, prompting dozens of people to rush to a nearby truck.

It was an “every man for himself” situation as the Greeks shoved their way to the front of the truck, competing for the food that was left. The 55 tons of food was completely gone in under two hours.

A Reuters employee at the scene was hit on the head with cauliflower heads as he attempted to photograph the situation.Kostas Barkas, a lawmaker from the leftist Syriza party, told Reuters.

Other Greek lawmakers said the situation showed images

“of people on the brink of despair” and the sense of “sadness for a proud people who have ended up like this.”

It’s a reality that many Greek citizens find hard to comprehend.

“It’s difficult. I never imagined that I would end up here,” 65-year-old Panagiota Petropoulos said. “I can’t afford anything, not even at the fruit market. Everything is expensive, prices of everything are going up while our income is going down and there are no jobs,” she continued.

- See more at: http://www.thedailysheeple.com/man-trampled-as-hundreds-of-desperate-greeks-scuffle-for-food_022013#sthash.m0AM4MJt.dpuf

http://media.dunyabulteni.net/250x190/2013/04/19/yardim.jpg
Greece – The Crisis & Hunger
http://www.bubblews.com/assets/images/news/1290521276_1360333467.jpg
:horn::ftitanic:
this hungry dogs support the terrorist in camp Lavrion
http://www.turquie-news.com/english/the-dhkp-c-terrorist-organization,10221.html
http://www.turquie-news.com/local/cache-vignettes/L614xH310/arton10221-7ce86.jpg

Not counting Lavrion, the DHKP-C has two additional camps in Greece : Kinesa and Dileysi. Militants are receiving explosives and armed training at these camps situated along the Aegean coast.

With the increasing number of attacks over the past six months staged by the Revolutionary People’s Liberation Front (DHKP-C), Istanbul’s Counterterrorism Unit has prepared an intelligence report on the organization’s restructuring.

The report contains all archival information on the Lavrion Camp in Greece, located just 199 kilometers from Athens and known for sending terrorists to Turkey. The camp, where far-left Dev-Sol organization and PKK militants have received armed and explosives training, became one of the PKK’s most important headquarters in Europe in the 1990’s.

Changing strategy following the arrest of PKK leader, the organization abandoned the camp. Lavrion proceeded to become a central gathering point for illegal migrants trying to access Europe through Turkey. In 2008, the camp hosted DHKP-C and PKK militants. However, due to strife between militants from the PKK and DHKP-C, the camp was divided into blocks.

AN ISLAND-VIEW CAMP

According to the report there are two additional camps infiltrated by the DHKP-C in Greece, namely the Kinesa and Dileysi camps. Training in sabotage, armed combat and explosives are provided at these camps.

Militants, who have no previous records tying them to the organization and have no search warrants out on their name, are able to access the camps by entering through the İpsala Border Gate.
Militants who do have a record and/or are wanted are forced to use the same route as migrant smugglers by reaching the camps on boat from the Maritsa River. Kinesa is just one hour’s distance from Athens.

The organization has set up cells in the form of single-story four bedrooms, one living room homes with gardens situated on the shore of the Aegean Sea. To the left of their cell house are single-story homes resided by Greek families.

Dileysi is located in the town of Oropo. It is just 250 meters from the coast. The camp has a three-story building and three-bedroom and one living room cell homes. The weapons used in the camp are hidden in plastic barrels and buried next to the plum tree in the garden. Halkida is visible from the camp’s sea view.

The report states that DHKP-C leader Hüseyin Fevzi Tekin has been transferring militants from Latakia and Damascus and placing them in their camps in Greece, due to the conflict in Syria,. The DHKP-C does continue to use Syria as a point of transit as well as for logistical support. Meanwhile, the report also writes that members in Romania and Bulgaria have also been collecting funds for the organization.

[Petros Houhoulis]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/23/us-greece-heating-idUSTRE7AM25S20111123
(Reuters) - Once a symbol of poverty, the lowly wood burning stove is making a comeback among cash-strapped Greeks horrified by the soaring costs of central heating as winter begins.
Even the wealthiest Greeks are turning to the kind of basic heating methods that most people haven't used in decades as an economic crisis deepens, taxes rise and temperatures drop.
Costas Mitsionis who sells wood-burning stoves at the central Athens Monastiraki market, rubs his hands with glee as he talks about the doubled demand for his product. His tiny shop is bursting at the seams with stoves in all colors and shapes precariously piled on top of one another almost to the ceiling.
"Business is up 100 percent," said Mitsionis, 42, constantly interrupted by phone calls from clients. "Everybody is flocking to buy, poor and rich alike -- this crisis has put the fear of God into everyone."
In a desperate move to plug its fiscal holes and meet its budget targets under an EU/IMF bailout, the government has hiked energy taxes, driving heating oil costs up to 40 percent higher.
In addition, a flurry of taxes due this fall, including a property levy slapped on electricity bills and a one-off "solidarity" income tax, means many cash-strapped families are facing hundreds or even thousands of euros in extra bills in the first months of winter.
This is when Greeks, most of whom live in apartment buildings, must pay to fill the diesel-fired boilers for the building's central heating. Many residents are declining to pay their share of the heating oil bill, forcing building managers to cancel or slash orders to a minimum.
"I have switched off the central heating and use nothing but the stove instead," said Theodora Doukiri, 39, a cleaning lady in Athens. Her husband was fired from his retail job a few months ago and the whole family depends on her wages of 1,000 euros a month to make ends meet.
"There's no way I could afford heating oil. Now I'm spending just 60 euros a month on wood and the house is like an oven," she added.
With many following her example, building managers are often putting central heating on for just 2-3 hours, usually in the evening, if at all. The rest of the day each family is left to fend for itself, using electric heaters, air conditioners or wood stoves to heat their immediate surroundings.
"People used to heat their houses but now they're just trying to warm their feet," said Mary Lardi, who runs a fuel supply service to residential customers. "We've been in business since 1974 and things have never been so bad."
BURNING ISSUE
It's hard to avoid talk of this latest national obsession, with one web site luring Internet surfers by offering heating oil coupons as prizes and a recent TV talk show interviewing Greeks in their 20s on how they manage to live in apartments without any heating.
For a lot of people, wood seems the most attractive alternative option for providing cheap heat.
Stoves that can warm 50 square metres of space are on sale for about 250 euros ($330). Some 1.5 tonnes of firewood, which can get an average household through three months of winter, costs about 260 euros, compared with about 1,000 euros for heating oil over the same period
"That's a good deal, even rich households in Athens's posh seaside suburbs have increased orders," said Tasos Mitropoulos, who runs a firewood business near Athens.
The government also added its own fuel to the wood-burning fire on Nov 8 when it lifted a ban on the household use of pellets, a type of wood fuel made from compacted sawdust.
Government officials in northern Greece say foresters are selling firewood at discount prices to help poor villagers in remote areas and imports from neighboring Bulgaria have soared.
But there is also a backlash on environment as increased wood consumption seems to be boosting illegal logging and pollution, officials and environmentalists said.
"Police recently arrested five illegal logging squads in just one swoop," said Costas Voliotis, who lives near Pelion, central Greece, one of the country's most richly forested mountains.
Three big cities in the country's colder north, Larisa, Volos and Thessaloniki, have also reported higher pollution levels this week and increased smog has been reported in some parts of Athens.
"We stopped hanging our laundry outside - it's getting dark from all the soot," said Vassilis Tozios, 36, an accountant who lives in the working class district of Kolonos.

Greece ordered 100 thousand stove from Turkey.
http://www.bubblews.com/assets/images/news/1290521276_1360333467.jpg
https://translate.google.com.tr/translate?sl=tr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=tr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hurriyet.com.tr%2Fekonomi%2F218 03425.asp&edit-text=&act=url

In contrast everybody uses stoves in Turkey... And this is why you make them in the first place. Are you proud that the Greeks have started using stoves again like the Turks or what you moron?

[Petros Houhoulis]

Greece support terrorists

http://s15.postimg.org/ilousjhnf/image.jpg
http://www.ozguncel.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/bebek-katili-ev-hapsi-b%C3%BClent-ar%C4%B1n%C3%A7.jpg
http://www.netkeyfim.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/ocalan-yakalanma.jpg

First of all, the passport belongs to the Republic of Cyprus, and they are damned right to support your enemies, since you invaded Cyprus, you still occupy the 37% of the island and you still don't recognize it as a state...

[Petros Houhoulis]

this hungry dogs support the terrorist in camp Lavrion
http://www.turquie-news.com/english/the-dhkp-c-terrorist-organization,10221.html
http://www.turquie-news.com/local/cache-vignettes/L614xH310/arton10221-7ce86.jpg

Not counting Lavrion, the DHKP-C has two additional camps in Greece : Kinesa and Dileysi. Militants are receiving explosives and armed training at these camps situated along the Aegean coast.

With the increasing number of attacks over the past six months staged by the Revolutionary People’s Liberation Front (DHKP-C), Istanbul’s Counterterrorism Unit has prepared an intelligence report on the organization’s restructuring.

The report contains all archival information on the Lavrion Camp in Greece, located just 199 kilometers from Athens and known for sending terrorists to Turkey. The camp, where far-left Dev-Sol organization and PKK militants have received armed and explosives training, became one of the PKK’s most important headquarters in Europe in the 1990’s.

Changing strategy following the arrest of PKK leader, the organization abandoned the camp. Lavrion proceeded to become a central gathering point for illegal migrants trying to access Europe through Turkey. In 2008, the camp hosted DHKP-C and PKK militants. However, due to strife between militants from the PKK and DHKP-C, the camp was divided into blocks.

AN ISLAND-VIEW CAMP

According to the report there are two additional camps infiltrated by the DHKP-C in Greece, namely the Kinesa and Dileysi camps. Training in sabotage, armed combat and explosives are provided at these camps.

Militants, who have no previous records tying them to the organization and have no search warrants out on their name, are able to access the camps by entering through the İpsala Border Gate.
Militants who do have a record and/or are wanted are forced to use the same route as migrant smugglers by reaching the camps on boat from the Maritsa River. Kinesa is just one hour’s distance from Athens.

The organization has set up cells in the form of single-story four bedrooms, one living room homes with gardens situated on the shore of the Aegean Sea. To the left of their cell house are single-story homes resided by Greek families.

Dileysi is located in the town of Oropo. It is just 250 meters from the coast. The camp has a three-story building and three-bedroom and one living room cell homes. The weapons used in the camp are hidden in plastic barrels and buried next to the plum tree in the garden. Halkida is visible from the camp’s sea view.

The report states that DHKP-C leader Hüseyin Fevzi Tekin has been transferring militants from Latakia and Damascus and placing them in their camps in Greece, due to the conflict in Syria,. The DHKP-C does continue to use Syria as a point of transit as well as for logistical support. Meanwhile, the report also writes that members in Romania and Bulgaria have also been collecting funds for the organization.

There is no "Terrorist camp" in Lavrion or anywhere else in Greece. A couple of Kurdish flags prove nothing. You just make things out of your arse as usual...

[gültekin]

There is no "Terrorist camp" in Lavrion or anywhere else in Greece. A couple of Kurdish flags prove nothing. You just make things out of your arse as usual...
SFU u liar faggot

http://content.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,20031,00.html
Bloodshed at Israel's Berlin consulate has highlighted speculation over whether israel's intelligence service, the Mossad, helped catch Abdullah Ocalan. Even if Israel had no hand in Turkey's capture of the rebel Kurd, his followers are now acting on that speculation. The Berlin drama followed reports on German television -- attributed to unnamed "Western intelligence sources" -- that Israeli intelligence may have played a role in snagging Ocalan.

The Israeli government late Tuesday strongly denied any involvement. "It was strange to see them actually issuing a denial on the basis of speculative reports," says TIME Jerusalem bureau chief Lisa Beyer. "But it was clearly a good idea given what happened in Berlin." Turkey on Wednesday boasted that its commandos had netted Ocalan in an "undercover operation," loaded him blindfolded onto a private jet and flown him to an island prison off Turkey. The claim of a covert operation certainly bears up in light of the conflicting accounts, by Greece and Kenya, of Ocalan's capture. Greece says it had given Ocalan temporary refuge at its diplomatic compound in Kenya, hoping to secure him sanctuary in a neighboring African country. Greek foreign minister Theodoros Pangalos said Tuesday Ocalan was "tricked into handing himself over" to Kenyan authorities on Monday, and had left the embassy compound with Kenyan officials. "He chose, despite our advice, to go with the Kenyan authorities to the airport," Pangalos said, ostensibly to fly to Amsterdam. Greece believes he was captured by the Turks en route.

The Kenyans were furious at the insinuation that they'd sold out Ocalan, especially since they are wary of being drawn into any international conflict after last year's devastating bomb attack on the U.S. embassy in Nairobi. Dr. Bonaya Godana, Kenya's foreign minister, said his government didn't know Ocalan was even in the country and ordered his removal as soon as it found out. Insisting that Kenyan security personnel would not have violated the diplomatic immunity of the compound, Dr. Godana claimed the Greeks had escorted Ocalan to the airport and flown him out of the country.

The discrepancy between those two accounts leaves ample room for a covert operation. Eyewitness accounts cited by Kenya's Daily Nation newspaper, the Associated Press and Ocalan's German attorneys suggest that Ocalan was lured or dragged out of the embassy compound by men who were -- or were at least believed to be -- Kenyan security officials.

The speculation over Ocalan's capture is not so much over whether there was a covert operation, but over who may have been involved. Greece on Tuesday hinted that Washington may have helped the Turks find Ocalan. The U.S. had certainly supported Turkey's efforts to extradite the fugitive and charge him with terrorism -- and Turkey's growing unhappiness about being used as a base for operations against Iraq would give Washington an incentive to help out. While White House spokesman Joe Lockhart on Tuesday welcomed news of the Kurd rebel's capture, he denied the U.S. had any "direct involvement in Ocalan's handover to Turkey."

[Petros Houhoulis]

SFU u liar faggot

http://content.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,20031,00.html
Bloodshed at Israel's Berlin consulate has highlighted speculation over whether israel's intelligence service, the Mossad, helped catch Abdullah Ocalan. Even if Israel had no hand in Turkey's capture of the rebel Kurd, his followers are now acting on that speculation. The Berlin drama followed reports on German television -- attributed to unnamed "Western intelligence sources" -- that Israeli intelligence may have played a role in snagging Ocalan.

The Israeli government late Tuesday strongly denied any involvement. "It was strange to see them actually issuing a denial on the basis of speculative reports," says TIME Jerusalem bureau chief Lisa Beyer. "But it was clearly a good idea given what happened in Berlin." Turkey on Wednesday boasted that its commandos had netted Ocalan in an "undercover operation," loaded him blindfolded onto a private jet and flown him to an island prison off Turkey. The claim of a covert operation certainly bears up in light of the conflicting accounts, by Greece and Kenya, of Ocalan's capture. Greece says it had given Ocalan temporary refuge at its diplomatic compound in Kenya, hoping to secure him sanctuary in a neighboring African country. Greek foreign minister Theodoros Pangalos said Tuesday Ocalan was "tricked into handing himself over" to Kenyan authorities on Monday, and had left the embassy compound with Kenyan officials. "He chose, despite our advice, to go with the Kenyan authorities to the airport," Pangalos said, ostensibly to fly to Amsterdam. Greece believes he was captured by the Turks en route.

The Kenyans were furious at the insinuation that they'd sold out Ocalan, especially since they are wary of being drawn into any international conflict after last year's devastating bomb attack on the U.S. embassy in Nairobi. Dr. Bonaya Godana, Kenya's foreign minister, said his government didn't know Ocalan was even in the country and ordered his removal as soon as it found out. Insisting that Kenyan security personnel would not have violated the diplomatic immunity of the compound, Dr. Godana claimed the Greeks had escorted Ocalan to the airport and flown him out of the country.

The discrepancy between those two accounts leaves ample room for a covert operation. Eyewitness accounts cited by Kenya's Daily Nation newspaper, the Associated Press and Ocalan's German attorneys suggest that Ocalan was lured or dragged out of the embassy compound by men who were -- or were at least believed to be -- Kenyan security officials.

The speculation over Ocalan's capture is not so much over whether there was a covert operation, but over who may have been involved. Greece on Tuesday hinted that Washington may have helped the Turks find Ocalan. The U.S. had certainly supported Turkey's efforts to extradite the fugitive and charge him with terrorism -- and Turkey's growing unhappiness about being used as a base for operations against Iraq would give Washington an incentive to help out. While White House spokesman Joe Lockhart on Tuesday welcomed news of the Kurd rebel's capture, he denied the U.S. had any "direct involvement in Ocalan's handover to Turkey."

Sorry to bother you again, but your facts don't add up to each other. If Greece hosted a Kurdish "terrorist camp" anywhere, then why did it send Ocalan to the Greek embassy in Kenya instead of letting him live amongst his "fellow terrorists" in the "Terrorist camp at Lavrion"?

Well, because Greece only gave asylum to Ocalan, and in fact, it was not the only country to do so:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocalan#Capture_and_trial


Until 1998, Öcalan was based in Syria. As the situation deteriorated in Turkey, the Turkish government openly threatened Syria over its support for the PKK.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] As a result, the Syrian government forced Öcalan to leave the country, but did not turn him over to the Turkish authorities. Öcalan went to Russia first and from there moved to various countries, including Italy and Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece). In 1998 the Turkish government requested the extradition of Öcalan from Italy. He was at that time defended by Britta Böhler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britta_B%C3%B6hler), a high-profile German attorney who argued that he fought a legitimate struggle against the oppression of ethnic Kurds.
He was captured in Kenya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya) on 15 February 1999, while being transferred from the Greek embassy to Jomo Kenyata international airport Nairobi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nairobi), in an operation by the Millî İstihbarat Teşkilâtı (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Organization_%28Turkey%29) with debatable help of CIA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA) or Mossad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad).[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocalan#cite_note-Thomas-44)[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocalan#cite_note-nytimes-capture-45) George Costoulas, the Greek consul who protected him, said that his life was in danger after the operation.[45] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocalan#cite_note-46)
Speaking to Can Dündar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can_D%C3%BCndar) on NTV Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTV_Turkey), the Deputy Undersecretary of the Turkish National Intelligence Organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Organization_%28Turkey%29), Cevat Öneş, said that Öcalan impeded American aspirations of establishing a separate Kurdish state. The Americans transferred him to the Turkish authorities, who flew him back to Turkey for trial.[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocalan#cite_note-47) His capture led thousands of Kurds to protest at Greek and Israeli embassies around the world. Kurds living in Germany have been threatened with deportation if they continue to hold demonstrations in support of Öcalan. The warning came after three Kurds were killed and 16 injured while storming the Israeli Consulate in Berlin.[47] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocalan#cite_note-PROTESTS-48)[48] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocalan#cite_note-PROTESTS-ATHENS-49) During the flight from Kenya to Turkey, a video recorded by Millî İstihbarat Teşkilâtı (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill%C3%AE_%C4%B0stihbarat_Te%C5%9Fkil%C3%A2t%C4%B 1) officers. Öcalan stated that his mother is of Turkish origin and that he was ready to serve the people of Turkey in any way.[49] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocalan#cite_note-video-50)



Why don't you accuse Italy or Russia of "terrorism", since both hosted Ocalan for a while?

Basically, Greece was obliged to grant asylum to Ocalan because of international law. Ocalan was wanted for terrorism in Turkey, which still had the death penalty in effect. It was illegal to hand over a person wanted and threatened by execution to any country.

Furthermore, what really happened was that the Greeks transferred him to the Yankees, who in turn transferred him to the Turks, who in turn promised to withdraw the death penalty as an option, as it happened indeed. None of this is proof that Greece allowed the training of any terrorists in its' soil, and Ocalan was not exactly a fighter either...

[Petros Houhoulis]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Hel7JcwbSBQ/TYTWgx1n47I/AAAAAAAADJ8/AbB9eB0aZ9k/s1600/turkey-UN-Kurdistan-maps.map.JPG

[Hayalet]

Kurds "from Turkey" number about 20 million:

The most populated cities of Turkey are Istanbul, Konya, Urfa, Diyarbakir and Izmir, consecutively.

By Mashallah Dakak, Rudaw
Your source is just clueless.



1. Istanbul 14,160,467
2. Ankara 5,045,083
3. İzmir 4,061,074
4. Bursa 2,740,970
5. Antalya 2,158,265
6. Adana 2,149,260
7. Konya 2,079,225
8. Gaziantep 1,844,438
9. Şanlıurfa 1,801,980
10. Mersin 1,705,774
11. Kocaeli 1,676,202
12. Diyarbakır 1,607,437

Needless to say, only Diyarbakır is predominantly Kurdish (12th most populous province in Turkey) out of these.

[wvwvw]

Turkey occupies Kurdish land. Kurds should take Turkey to the International Court of Hague for crimes commited against them:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnyutEoRzLs&sns=em

NY Times: Turkey’s Human Rights Hypocrisy
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/20/opinion/turkeys-human-rights-hypocrisy.html?_r=0

WAR CRIMES AGAINST KURDS IN TURKEY STILL GO UNPUNISHED
http://kurdishrights.org/2013/09/05/war-crimes-against-kurds-in-turkey-still-go-unpunished/

Stop Turkey from using chemical weapons against Kurds
Petition published by ROJ on Nov 05, 2011
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-turkey-of-using-chemical-weapons.html

The Turkish state was carrying out a major terrorist war against the Kurdish population: tens of thousands of people killed, thousands of towns and villages destroyed, probably millions of refugees, torture, every kind of atrocity you can think of.

In March 2011, Orhan Pamuk, a leading Turkish writer, Nobel Prize winner, was fined for his statement in a Swiss newspaper that “We have killed 30,000 Kurds and 1 million Armenians.” Hardly any discussion of Turkey can take place without mention of at least the Kurds, and sometimes of the Armenians.

http://tqadry.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/mb-kurdish-flag.jpg

[Hayalet]

Turkey occupies Kurdish land.
But if it hadn't, could you have tried to embarrass Turks in your signature?


More than 500,000 child brides married in Turkey in the last decade: A recent research has shown that 1 in 3 marriages in Turkey was a child marriage

On January 12, a 14-year-old girl was found dead in Turkey’s southeastern province of Siirt, few days after she had her second birth. The girl was married in a religious ceremony to a man upon the consent of their families. She gave birth to her first child when she was just 12.

Polygamy widespread in Turkey, study shows

Polygamy is particularly common in the Kurdish south-east, where second wives are married in religious or cultural ceremonies and thus have little legal protection, the study claims.
Think about it. :chin:

[Petros Houhoulis]

But if it hadn't, could you have tried to embarrass Turks in your signature?


Think about it. :chin:

Well, it is your mistake to insist upon controlling Kurdistan, and honestly, the PKK does more to improve womens' rights in Turkey than the Turkish government itself:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRsw5s28jxY

Sooner or later the same indoctrination into womens' rights shall take place elsewhere:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txD2gUWpHu8

Meanwhile in Turkey, Sultan Mad Dog does his best to turn Turkey into an Islamist state with little rights for women.

Think about it. :chin:

[Casandrinos]

Whatever their goal is it's just another failed attempt to avoid durkeys upcoming end.

When the real estate bubble burst on their faces like cum all the problems will become realities

And there will be no coming back :(

[Rojava]

Your source is just clueless.



Needless to say, only Diyarbakır is predominantly Kurdish (12th most populous province in Turkey) out of these.

It was talking about Kurdish population in the cities, not the actual complete population of the city.

[Rojava]

But if it hadn't, could you have tried to embarrass Turks in your signature?


Think about it. :chin:

And why do you think that this occurs? Obviously because of little or no education. Blame your government. And also because of Islam. Child brides and 2+ wives are against Kurdish culture. Treatment of women as slaves is against Kurdish culture. Traditionally women would have to be some of the most important members of a Kurdish clan (like their leader). Come to think of it, we are traditionally very similar to ancient Celts, such as Boudica, when it comes to women (e.g equality). I do not view anything slightly Islamic as Kurdish culture. It is nothing but a plague.

Besides, these people are people that vote AKP and other Islamist like parties like Huda Par.

[alanr]

Ok lets make something clear. First of all, Turkey does NOT support Kurdistan, the AKP and Erdogen do. Without local Kurdish support there is no saying if Erdogen will stay in power or not. Look, eventually the PKK and Erdogen will come to some sort of agreement, but it will be a slow process and will only happen once Erdogen secures the presidency and changes the very fabric of Turkey. The issue is that you can not change the fabric of the fascist Turkish state over night as the population of Turkey has been exposed to decades of brainwashing, and you can not undo it over night, the same goes with PKK supporters, they are not yet ready for a settlement, and for now the "clashes" between Erdogen and the PKK will continue until Erdogen is president and the public is ready for change.

Needless to say, Southern Kurdistan has secured all of the so called "disputed" regions and has taken over ex American military base "K1" in Kirkuk as well as the air base (With helicopters) in Kirkuk. So we we have recovered enough heavy American weaponry to create another mechanized division.

As for those that think Kurdistan is not safe. You clearly have some defeciencies. Kurdistan is as safe as it gets. We don't even need to send the army to battle ISIS, because they are not a conventional army, but an insurgency group. We have sent the special forces to hunt them down, and they have done just that. Once the special forces freed the cities from ISIS, we sent the "worst" Kurdish battalions to simply protect the city as a "police" force. The best Kurdish divisions are still in their barracks.

These are the special forces.

http://z5.ifrm.com/30192/69/0/p1196428/wPVLQbw.jpg

http://z5.ifrm.com/30192/69/0/p1196489/poi.jpg

http://z5.ifrm.com/30192/69/0/p1196486/uh.jpg

http://z5.ifrm.com/30192/69/0/p1196515/image.jpg

And here is a video of them in action.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_iITwAxmfQ

As for Kurdistan becoming a "Proxy state" that is complete and utter bullshit, for various reasons. Turkey and Iran BOTH want to be parters in Kurdistan, which gives US a choice, not the other around. The geo-political fabric of the ME has changed and we're rising, evidently. Turkey needs us just as much as we need them, and recently we have made energy agreements with Jordan, and once a "sunni" state is carved out of Iraq, we will have the option to use Jordanian trade routes.

As for the Turkish music video made in Slemani, if you look closely you will see that KURDISH CULTURE is introduced to you in Turkish, which was made to bring Turkoman closer to us, and doesn't mean that Turkish culture is overtaking Kurdish culture or anything as such.

I told you before, this is our century. We have been wrongfully oppressed by everyone, and it's our turn to shine.

[SardiniaAtlantis]

BIJI KURDISTAN!

[Azamat]

Create? It says nothing about Turks creating a Kurdistan. I find it ironic that Turks support an independent Kurdistan.Hayalet passes up no opportunity to direct some half-assed remarks at Kurds, I suggest you ignore him.

[StonyArabia]

Yes Kurdistan should become independent, this will be one of the first development in the Middle East, since all other groups will finally get their states. Kurdistan you are the key to freedom of the Middle East for all other groups.

[Azamat]

Kurds and Celts!!What a similarity :))


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krcT_jzM27s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiU-n_lWAio

AMAZİNG!! THEY ALMOST SAME!!!!Yes almost the same, oh Kurds want to be white so badly, oh we are so wannabe.

[Rojava]

Yes almost the same, oh Kurds want to be white so badly, oh we are so wannabe.

:lol: I went on comparing Boudica the Queen of the Iceni tribe with Kurdish women, and I guess he got so many wrong ideas in his head.

[Azamat]

And why do you think that this occurs? Obviously because of little or no education. Blame your government. And also because of Islam. Child brides and 2+ wives are against Kurdish culture.And no such practices were common among Kurds when they still practiced their traditional semi-nomadic lifestyle. It points to the influence of Islamic institutions associated with sedentarism: mosques and madrasas, solidified in Anatolia by the very Turks so desperate to be regarded as modern and "progressive" themselves.

http://i.imgur.com/mMaWea7.jpg (http://imgur.com/mMaWea7)

http://www.kurdipedia.org/books/74841.pdf

The Kurdish culture of history was relatively egalitarian indeed, but it seems to have become polluted by Islamic influence in the present day. I know what I'd do to clean house.

http://www.thedailysheeple.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/nazi-execution.jpg

[Kiyant]

And no such practices were common among Kurds when they still practiced their traditional semi-nomadic lifestyle. It points to the influence of Islamic institutions associated with sedentarism: mosques and madrasas, solidified in Anatolia by the very Turks so desperate to be regarded as modern and "progressive" themselves.

http://i.imgur.com/mMaWea7.jpg (http://imgur.com/mMaWea7)

http://www.kurdipedia.org/books/74841.pdf

And still Kurds are the ones who do it mostly in Turkey so i dont see what you want to say.

[Azamat]

And still Kurds are the ones who do it mostly in Turkey so i dont see what you want to say.It means, that much of the backwardry among Kurds today was introduced from outside and can in part be attributed to Turks and the Ottoman Empire.

[Kiyant]

It means, that much of the backwardry among Kurds today was introduced from outside and can in part be attributed to Turks and the Ottoman Empire.

Well while most Turks stopped doing that Kurds still do it so you cant complain about it

[Cleitus]

I would support a independent Kurdistan, if all Kurds leave Europe.

[Azamat]

Well while most Turks stopped doing that Kurds still do it so you cant complain about itWe can shift the blame as much as we see fit. Let us control our own affairs and we will eliminate the backwardness with far greater efficiency than Ataturk ever dreamed of.

[Kiyant]

We can complain as much as we see fit. Let us control our own affairs and we will eliminate the backwardness with far greater efficiency than Ataturk ever dreamed of.

Nope you can have Iraq f you want but Turkey is undividable

[Azamat]

I would support a independent Kurdistan, if all Kurds leave Europe.Give them weapons training and all of them will.

[Azamat]

Nope you can have Iraq f you want but Turkey is undividableYour belief in Turkey's "indivisibility" is like that of a religious fanatic.

[Kiyant]

Your belief in Turkey's "indivisibility" is like that of a religious fanatic.

Not really

[Petros Houhoulis]

Hayalet passes up no opportunity to direct some half-assed remarks at Kurds, I suggest you ignore him.

What remarks? The resident censorship machine of the Apricity has wiped out his half-arsed delusions. He was getting himself into an embarrassing situation, apparently...

[Petros Houhoulis]

And still Kurds are the ones who do it mostly in Turkey so i dont see what you want to say.

He wants to say that the Turks introduced that shit, together with Islam. I can testify to that as well. What is becoming apparent so far is that Islam is full of shit, even for Sultan Mad Dog himself who is pleading to the U.S. of A. not to bomb the genocidal savages (and allies of Turkey) in Iraq because this war has turned into a Shia-Sunni war of Muzzies, according to him...

...and while he is trying to superimpose himself as the "sane voice of Islam", the Europeans would be glad to support an Atheist PKK against a shitty Muzzie Turkey, in the hope that all of the shitty changes that took place after the arrival of the Turkish Muzzies in "Anatolia" a millenium ago, can be finally undone...

That's what I want to say, and also to remind you once again to pack your baggages for your final departure from Europe...

[Kiyant]

He wants to say that the Turks introduced that shit, together with Islam. I can testify to that as well. What is becoming apparent so far is that Islam is full of shit, even for Sultan Mad Dog himself who is pleading to the U.S. of A. not to bomb the genocidal savages (and allies of Turkey) in Iraq because this war has turned into a Shia-Sunni war of Muzzies, according to him...

...and while he is trying to superimpose himself as the "sane voice of Islam", the Europeans would be glad to support an Atheist PKK against a shitty Muzzie Turkey, in the hope that all of the shitty changes that took place after the arrival of the Turkish Muzzies in "Anatolia" a millenium ago, can be finally undone...

That's what I want to say, and also to remind you once again to pack your baggages for your final departure from Europe...

Kurds were muslims way before the Turks became muslim you idiot :picard1:
Also the rest of your post just reeks of your (overly familiar) idiocracy

[Petros Houhoulis]

Kurds were muslims way before the Turks became muslim you idiot :picard1:
Also the rest of your post just reeks of your (overly familiar) idiocracy

Not the ones in modern day Turkey. Islam arrived in "Anatolia" with the Turks. The Kurds were not Muslims while under Roman rule, and the Arabs failed to penetrate the region.

Kurds outside of modern Turkey were indeed Islamized by Arabs, but I blame you for your own Kurds, not the Kurds outside of Turkey. Can you grasp that?

[Azamat]

Kurds were muslims way before the Turks became muslim you idiot :picard1:Ignoramus strikes again.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb400/IzarbatG/ScreenHunter_3062May140012_zpsf3b4e9ea.jpg

http://www.perspectivescanada.org/Portals/perspectives/Integrative%20Project%20-%20Kurds.pdf

[Rojava]

Ignoramus strikes again.

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb400/IzarbatG/ScreenHunter_3062May140012_zpsf3b4e9ea.jpg

http://www.perspectivescanada.org/Portals/perspectives/Integrative%20Project%20-%20Kurds.pdf

And now the time has come for the Kurds to turn away from this Arab religion.

[Kiyant]

And now the time has come for the Kurds to turn away from this Arab religion.

Most Kurds in Turkey are religious so good luck with that

[Dzihadovic]

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_h9hbo1UREh8/TUCENFdD25I/AAAAAAAABUg/24DERghFdVw/s1600/%25CE%259B.jpg

Come and get it!

Crazy Muzzlim!!!

I wouldn't advise using a spear and shield against rifles.

[Azamat]

Most Kurds in Turkey are religious so good luck with thatAs per my initial recommendation.

http://www.thedailysheeple.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/nazi-execution.jpg

[Hayalet]

According to a 2014 survey, 42% of Turkish Kurds vote for AKP (same as national average), while 39% vote for BDP/HDP.

[Rojava]

According to a 2014 survey, 42% of Turkish Kurds vote for AKP (same as national average), while 39% vote for BDP/HDP.

Which survey?

[Rojava]

There is no kurds in Anatolia that time. they are minority zagrosian invaders


Kurdistan is not part of traditional Anatolia, so I don't give a shit:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/AnatolieLimits.jpg

And referring to your map, you said it yourself: invaders do not count as natives. So, by showing support for those Turkic clans you are Turkic and not Anatolian.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I wouldn't advise using a spear and shield against rifles.

When did you Bosniaks learn to use rifles?

[Yaroslav]

An Israeli puppet state that could threaten to Balkanize Iran and Turkey... no thank you. Erdogan must crush the Kurds with an iron hand.

[wvwvw]

:cool:

http://www.mrconservative.com/files/2014/03/2014.03.25-mrconservative-5331c867664e9.gif

[Azmar]

This thread reminds me of why I rarely visit this forum. It's just nastiness and personal attacks. A lot of "Fuck you, faggot" and crude photos and videos and nationalist bullshit. I don't know what the average age is here, I would say 15. I think it's just a general atmosphere due to very relaxed moderation that draws otherwise normal people into this kind of pettiness, but then why do they stick around? There aren't any real discussions of anything on most threads. It's all flaming. There are some people that I would like to discuss these issues with and I wish they would just ignore the others and not take the bait.

I think I might be the only member here who is currently in Iraqi Kurdistan. We're currently undergoing a fuel shortage due to Daash and the export of oil that we don't have but other than that, things are very safe here and not too much changed.

I don't think that an independent Kurdistan will lead to a large exodus of Kurds from Turkey. There's really nothing stopping the KRG from granting permanent residence to Kurds from Turkey right now if they wished to do so. It's not difficult to apply for a one year iqamah if you have a job. There are a lot of people from Turkey working here since there are a lot of Turkish companies, not all are Kurds either. I haven't met any of them planning to stay here indefinitely or anything like that. I doubt an independent Kurdistan would change that. Immigration of large numbers of Kurds from Turkey or the unlikely union with North Kurdistan would really change the political situation with the KDP and PUK and I don't think they would find that desirable either. Anyway, that's just my hypothesis on the speculative situation.

Kurdistan is very safe, aside from Kirkuk, and I think it's actually safer than most western countries. Some people have suggested it's not and it will be over-run by warlords but the political structure is already in place and it operates largely independently already.

Kirkuk has only recently come under KRG control, apart from the road between Hewler and Slemani and perhaps a few other sections, like I think Kalar is technically part of the governorate even though it's not that close. There are ethnic and religious divisions in Kirkuk so I think the problems will continue there for the time being.

I hope Kurdistan can find a way to be inclusive of minorities such as Turkmen, Arabs, Ashuri and Yezidi but that will continue to be a problem in Kirkuk, as well as the Sunni Shia issue. Most Ashuri are just trying to get out of Iraq and Yezidi are already pretty much included in Kurdistan and nationalist Kurds sometimes claim that the Yezidi religion was the original Kurdish religion although I don't really see any evidence of that. It does give them some cache among Kurds. A taxi driver last night thought I was Yezidi because he smelled whisky on me.

[Azmar]

Actually from looking at the news today it doesn't seem like Israel and Turkey are officially supporting the independence of Kurdistan but it doesn't look like they're completely opposed to it either.

[Rojava]

Referendum has been prepared. Voting will take place within months. BIJI KURDISTAN!

[DarkSecret]

Actually from looking at the news today it doesn't seem like Israel and Turkey are officially supporting the independence of Kurdistan but it doesn't look like they're completely opposed to it either.

What are you doing in Iraq? Training PKK members?

[PlanA]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/03/iraq-kurdish-president-barzani-proposes-independence-referendum