Classify singer

[nisse]

http://tabloid.pravda.com.ua/images/doc/1-5fd8e.jpg

http://i.focus.ua/img/a/5/0/25705.jpg

http://s1.glamurchik.tochka.net/img/articles/full/1/8/87481.jpg

http://e-motion.tochka.net/img/forall/ufw/IMG_8260.jpg

http://e-motion.tochka.net/img/g/478/49/2.jpg

[Guapo]

Dinaricized Paleo-Atlantid

[Agrippa]

Atlanto-Pontid with Alpinoid and Dinarid influences.

[Cail]

Atlanto-Pontid with Alpinoid and Dinarid influences.

What's that :confused:?

[Agrippa]

What's that :confused:?

Basically Atlantomediterranid and Pontid are very similar, by specialisation the same, like Skandonordid and Eastnordid. The individual differences are often minimal, yet there are genetic and regional ones which justify a differentiation.

For cases in which one can't distinguish between Atlantomediterranid and Pontid or simply the whole Nordmediterranid spectrum of both types being meant, I use Atlanto-Pontid. The more important and used term is obviously Atlantomediterranid, which one can use for both anyway, but then one could argue "whether person X is Atlantomediterranid or Pontid", which can't be said for every individual, even less so in the mixture, without knowing the regional background - obviously if he is from Bulgaria, one could just say Pontid, but I dont do unless absolutely sure.

So Atlanto-Pontid is like saying Nordid for both Skando- and Eastnordid.

[Bridie]

Basically Atlantomediterranid and Pontid are very similar, by specialisation the same, like Skandonordid and Eastnordid. The individual differences are often minimal, yet there are genetic and regional ones which justify a differentiation.

For cases in which one can't distinguish between Atlantomediterranid and Pontid or simply the whole Nordmediterranid spectrum of both types being meant, I use Atlanto-Pontid. The more important and used term is obviously Atlantomediterranid, which one can use for both anyway, but then one could argue "whether person X is Atlantomediterranid or Pontid", which can't be said for every individual, even less so in the mixture, without knowing the regional background - obviously if he is from Bulgaria, one could just say Pontid, but I dont do unless absolutely sure.

So Atlanto-Pontid is like saying Nordid for both Skando- and Eastnordid.That doesn't really make sense, since the Atlantic region and the Pontic region are on opposite sides of the European continent. A bit like classifying someone as Balto-Berid or saying that someone looks Greco-English. :D If one can't distinguish between a leptomorphic individual from Greece and one from England, then there is probably not much point in sub-racial classifications at all.

[Agrippa]

That doesn't really make sense, since the Atlantic region and the Pontic region are on opposite sides of the European continent. A bit like classifying someone as Balto-Berid or saying that someone looks Greco-English. :D If one can't distinguish between a leptomorphic individual from Greece and one from England, then there is probably not much point in sub-racial classifications at all.

Subraces are about types, about adaptations, specialised racial forms. The region is only insofar important, as it allows us to say that the type developed there or was at least capable of surviving.

I morphed Atlantomediterranid and Pontid males into a facial morph, which one can conveniently call "Atlanto-Pontid":

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3323&d=1259965267

More morphs here:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=147774&postcount=27

Obviously Pontid is closer to a British Atlantomediterranid than a Bruenn/Cromagnid type and actually being even closer to Nordid than the latter.

Racial relations can be best explained by interchangeable adaptive qualities. Point is, under the same circumstances which produced Atlantomediterranid, a Pontid would survive and vice versa, but not necessarily another racial type, no matter how close he lives.


Balto-Berid

Baltids are depigmented North Eastern Cromagnoids, adapted to the continental climate area mostly, forest dwellers in the colder, UV-low regions and simple farmers of the East, Berids are the remnants of the Southern Cromagnoid gatherers, reduced but still long headed, which were pushed back by the more progressive Neolithic Mediterranoid people which marched along the coasts both in the West (Atlantomediterranid) and East (Pontid).

Atlantomediterranid and (taller-robust) Pontid remains almost interchangeable, Baltid and Berid definitely not, because they are completely different European adaptations in some regards, even though they also show similarities.

Therefore the example was no good one.

Change it to f.e. Borreby and Westbaltid and you get closer, use Nordid for Skando- and Eastnordid and its the same.

After all Atlantomediterranid and Pontid are just subtypes of Mediterranid - of the more robust-taller Northern spectrum in Europe. In the end one can distinguish them on a collective base, but not necessarily an individual one.

[Neanderthal]

Alpinized Baskid.

[nisse]

Alpinized Baskid.

Baskid?

I'm actually quite surprised at these classifications, since I think the guy looks like me and I was classified as subnordid/baltid :ohwell:

[Neanderthal]

Baskid?

I'm actually quite surprised at these classifications, since I think the guy looks like me and I was classified as subnordid/baltid :ohwell:

Yes, he looks like a depigmented Diranized Med to me (AKA Baskid) with some Alpinid triats.
He isnt Nordid nor Baltid, hes an Aurignacoid, long narrow faced Med; His face only seem to be influenced by the Alpinid type on the grazilisation of his features and the robustness of his jaw.
I dont know where's he from, but he looks fairly Iberian to me.

[nisse]

I see. I don't really think his face is long :ohwell:

He's Ukrainian.

[Agrippa]

I see. I don't really think his face is long :ohwell:

He's Ukrainian.

Its shortened, presumably due to the Alpinoid part, but the Mediterranid and possibly slight Dinarid influence being clearly visible, even more so in profile, nasal and midfacial height too.

This picture you posted is a nice comparison with a pred. Osteuropid/Baltid individual:
http://e-motion.tochka.net/img/g/478/49/2.jpg

Its actually a quite good comparison of a basic (reduced-derivative) Cromagnoid vs. Aurignacoid morphology, at least in this picture. Frontally he looks more Alpinoid influenced than in this profile shot.

Since he's from the Ukraine, we can now clearly speak of Pontid if its about his Mediterranid/leptodolichomorphic component ;)

[DeusEx]

I see that you like "Друга ріка" (druga rika) pop - rock band.

[Bridie]

Therefore the example was no good one.
I think it served its purpose... to illustrate my point that you can't just mix up sub-racial types due to them both being leptomorphic, paedomorphic or robust UP types. To call someone a East/Western Mediterranid type seems contradictory. Just as calling someone a North/Southern UP type would be. North/Eastern or South/Western etc, fine, but I've yet to hear of an East/Western wind.... ;)

Point still remains, if one can't distinguish between Eastern and Western and Northern and Southern types, then there seems little point to sub-racial classifications within Europe at all.



Change it to f.e. Borreby and Westbaltid and you get closer, use Nordid for Skando- and Eastnordid and its the same.And why is it a more realistic comparison? Because those sub-racial types evolved in geographically close regions of Europe.



After all Atlantomediterranid and Pontid are just subtypes of Mediterranid -Yet one is Eastern and the other Western. According to genetic studies, the East-West cline in Europe is significant. If sub-racial characteristics don't reflect this, what is the point in sub-racial classification at all?

I know you said that the distinguishing factor is climatic and environmental adaptation, but let's face it, the Black Sea region and the Atlantic coast are dissimilar enough.

I can't help but wonder if you find it hard to distinguish between Atlantic and Pontic types due to having not spent much or any time at all on the Atlantic fringes...

[Guapo]

He's Ukrainian.

Descendant of the Yellow Horde? I thought he was a Brit.

[Agrippa]

Point still remains, if one can't distinguish between Eastern and Western and Northern and Southern types, then there seems little point to sub-racial classifications within Europe at all.

Point explained above. Its not about, at least for me, "fun guessing" of origin, which is largely irrelevant but can be done of course, but the study of human variation and adaptation.


And why is it a more realistic comparison? Because those sub-racial types evolved in geographically close regions of Europe.

No, because their ancestral type was close and their adaptation being largely the same. Whether its a Borreby/Cromagno-Alpinoid from Western Germany, Denmark or a Westbaltid from Estonia, they show basic similarities which being them close together. They are all brachycephalised, yet still robust, Cromagnoids.


Yet one is Eastern and the other Western. According to genetic studies, the East-West cline in Europe is significant. If sub-racial characteristics don't reflect this, what is the point in sub-racial classification at all?

Explained above, they represent evolutionary history, human variation, adaptation and specialisation. F.e. a Nordid from Britain, Sweden or Russia is more likely to survive the conditions of Nordisation than an Atlantomediterranid from Britain, a Borreby from Sweden or a Baltid from Russia. They have racial qualities, traits which distinguish them from others and those adaptations could happen in more than one region.

On the long run the neutral genetic variation might stay largely the same, whereas the racial qualities change drastically. So some regions of Eastern Europe might be still closer to Nordid-Pontid variation genetically, but racially they moved in a completely different direction, so that they are, by racial qualities, much further away from the Nordid-Pontid variation than Western Atlanto-Nordid forms.


I know you said that the distinguishing factor is climatic and environmental adaptation, but let's face it, the Black Sea region and the Atlantic coast are dissimilar enough.

First, they are not as dissimilar as f.e. the continental climate region with the Baltisation and secondly its not just about climate, but the way of life and selective regime working on a people. Different racial forms can live side by side, becoming completely different by racial qualities.

F.e. in Denmark Borreby and Nordid lived side by side, in the Balticum Nordoid and Osteuropid, but at the time this racial forms came up respectively, they lived in a completely different selective regime, namely in both cases herder-warrior vs. hunter-gatherer-fisher.

However, if you compare Bulgaria and Eastern Romania, the coastal line of the Black Sea with the West, they are not that different from the Atlanto-Nordid region.


I can't help but wonder if you find it hard to distinguish between Atlantic and Pontic types due to having not spent much or any time at all on the Atlantic fringes...

The differences are largely reduced to "national faces" and minor traits. These can be recognised, yet the regional Atlantomediterranid and Pontid variation being oftentimes greater than the one between these two Mediterranid forms and overall they are just basically the same adaptation.

The greatest differences come from the fact that Pontid is more often mixed with other variants, whereas there exist more pure examples of Atlantomediterranid. So the main differentiation being the admixture pattern, f.e. the Eastern Alpinoid influence in the guy above.

But the whole issue is something for this thread:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11365

[Bridie]

Point explained above. Its not about, at least for me, "fun guessing" of origin, which is largely irrelevant but can be done of course, but the study of human variation and adaptation.



No, because their ancestral type was close and their adaptation being largely the same. Whether its a Borreby/Cromagno-Alpinoid from Western Germany, Denmark or a Westbaltid from Estonia, they show basic similarities which being them close together. They are all brachycephalised, yet still robust, Cromagnoids.



Explained above, they represent evolutionary history, human variation, adaptation and specialisation. F.e. a Nordid from Britain, Sweden or Russia is more likely to survive the conditions of Nordisation than an Atlantomediterranid from Britain, a Borreby from Sweden or a Baltid from Russia. They have racial qualities, traits which distinguish them from others and those adaptations could happen in more than one region.

On the long run the neutral genetic variation might stay largely the same, whereas the racial qualities change drastically. So some regions of Eastern Europe might be still closer to Nordid-Pontid variation genetically, but racially they moved in a completely different direction, so that they are, by racial qualities, much further away from the Nordid-Pontid variation than Western Atlanto-Nordid forms.



First, they are not as dissimilar as f.e. the continental climate region with the Baltisation and secondly its not just about climate, but the way of life and selective regime working on a people. Different racial forms can live side by side, becoming completely different by racial qualities.

F.e. in Denmark Borreby and Nordid lived side by side, in the Balticum Nordoid and Osteuropid, but at the time this racial forms came up respectively, they lived in a completely different selective regime, namely in both cases herder-warrior vs. hunter-gatherer-fisher.

However, if you compare Bulgaria and Eastern Romania, the coastal line of the Black Sea with the West, they are not that different from the Atlanto-Nordid region.



The differences are largely reduced to "national faces" and minor traits. These can be recognised, yet the regional Atlantomediterranid and Pontid variation being oftentimes greater than the one between these two Mediterranid forms and overall they are just basically the same adaptation.

The greatest differences come from the fact that Pontid is more often mixed with other variants, whereas there exist more pure examples of Atlantomediterranid. So the main differentiation being the admixture pattern, f.e. the Eastern Alpinoid influence in the guy above.

But the whole issue is something for this thread:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11365So basically you're trying to say that all darker, taller, leptomorhpic individuals within Europe are pretty much the same from a biological perspective. It would be useful to come up with a new classification system, if one is needed at all.

Calling someone from Greece, for example, an Atlantid or someone from Ireland a Pontid would be misleading.

[Agrippa]

So basically you're trying to say that all darker, taller, leptomorhpic individuals within Europe are pretty much the same from a biological perspective.

Point is, they have more traits in common than just being tall, darker and leptomorphic, which would be true for Dinarids too by the way...


Calling someone from Greece, for example, an Atlantid or someone from Ireland a Pontid would be misleading.

Exactly, thats why I use for such cases "Atlanto-Pontid" rather than distinguishing between variants which can't be always properly distinguished on an individual base, same goes for "Atlanto-Nordid" or "Cromagno-Alpinoid" in all cases which are unclear, intermediate or both. :thumb001:

As for the Atlantomediterranid - Pontid spectrum, its clearest if you look at Northern Italy, Croatia and Montenegro - this is really the intermediate area and any kind of borderline between Atlantomediterranid and Pontid would be somewhat artificial, with Atlantomediterranid being the per se accepted term for all taller, larger scaled, more robust Mediterranid variants in most of the anthropological literature I might add.

F.e. if looking at prehistoric skeletons, you can't distinguish always between Nordid and Mediterranid, between Atlantomediterranid and Pontid not at all.

The main difference being the regional-genetic background.

But to name differences some authors mentioned of Pontids/Eastern European Mediterranids in comparison to "classic Atlantomediterranid" from the West: On average more gracile, higher skulled (LHI), sometimes broader jaws relative to the facial breadth and minimal frontal, somewhat shorter, especially those closer to the Caucasus and Greece more hairy.

Yet obviously you find the very same in the Western Mediterranid variation too, its primarily about frequency.

[National_Nord]

Mediterranean

[Curtis24]

Point still remains, if one can't distinguish between Eastern and Western and Northern and Southern types, then there seems little point to sub-racial classifications within Europe at all.

No, because subrace is not strictly geographical.

The truth is, I see a lot of the same "no-race" impulse in European genetic nationalists - they want to pretend that because they are all the same race or subrace, it ignores the gaping social inequalities and ethnic divisions within their borders...

[Rouxinol]

Screams Pontid. Somewhere around the Black Sea.