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Unome
06-17-2014, 06:20 AM
This thread is inspired by Raine's (Atlantic_Islander?) recent posting: here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?130194-Teacher-30-told-the-mole-on-his-back-was-nothing-to-worry-about-is-dying-from-more-than-50-tumours).

Raine, pay attention, this is how a proper thread should be written instead of copy+paste, copy+paste, copy+paste, using your own ideas/thoughts/words instead of others…



HOW THE TRUE PHILOSOPHER PRACTICES FOR DEATH (FROM THE PHAEDO)

SOCRATES: Never mind him, said Socrates. Now for you, my jury. I want to explain to you how it seems to me natural that a man who has really devoted his life to philosophy should be cheerful in the face of death, and confident of finding the greatest blessing in the next world when his life is finished. I will try to make clear to you, Simmias and Cebes, how this can be so.

Ordinary people seem not to realize that those who really apply themselves in the right way to philosophy are directly and of their own accord preparing themselves for dying and death. If this is true, and they have actually been looking forward to death all their lives, it would of course be absurd to be troubled when the thing comes for which they have so long been preparing and looking forward.


SIMMIAS: Simmias laughed and said, Upon my word, Socrates, you have made me laugh, though I was not at all in the mood for it. I am sure that if they heard what you said, most people would think--and our fellow countrymen would heartily agree--that it was a very good hit at the philosophers to say that they are half dead already, and that they, the normal people, are quite aware that death would serve the philosophers right.


SOCRATES: And they would be quite correct, Simmias--except in thinking that they are 'quite aware.' They are not at all aware in what sense true philosophers are half dead, or in what sense they deserve death, or what sort of death they deserve. But let us dismiss them and talk among ourselves. Do we believe that there is such a thing as death?

SIMMIAS: Most certainly, said Simmias, taking up the role of answering.

SOCRATES: Is it simply the release of the soul from the body? Is death nothing more or less than this, the separate condition of the body by itself when it is released from the soul, and the separate condition by itself of the soul when released from the body? Is death anything else than this?

SIMMIAS: No, just that.

SOCRATES: Well then, my boy, see whether you agree with me. I fancy that this will help us to find out the answer to our problem. Do you think that it is right for a philosopher to concern himself with the so-called pleasures connected with food and drink?

SIMMIAS: Certainly not, Socrates, said Simmias.

SOCRATES: What about sexual pleasures?

SIMMIAS: No, not at all.

SOCRATES: And what about the other attentions that we pay to our bodies? Do you think that a philosopher attaches any importance to them? I mean things like providing himself with smart clothes and shoes and other bodily ornaments; do you think that he values them or despises them--in so far as there is no real necessity for him to go in for that sort of thing?

SIMMIAS: I think the true philosopher despises them, he said.

SOCRATES: Then it is your opinion in general that a man of this kind is not concerned with the body, but keeps his attention directed as much as he can away from it and toward the soul?

SIMMIAS: Yes, it is.

SOCRATES: So it is clear first of all in the case of physical pleasures that the philosopher frees his soul from association with the body, so far as is possible, to a greater extent than other men?

SIMMIAS: It seems so.

SOCRATES: And most people think, do they not, Simmias, that a man who finds no pleasure and takes no part in these things does not deserve to live, and that anyone who thinks nothing of physical pleasures has one foot in the grave?

SIMMIAS: That is perfectly true (Phaedo 63e-65a).
http://www.mesacc.edu/~davpy35701/text/plato-true-phi-er.html


Plato (channeling 'Socrates') famously wrote that a Philosopher prepares his whole life for death. This claim makes perfect sense in conjunction with another famous quote from Plato, "The unexamined life is not worth living." These two claims, taken together, could and would lead potential thinkers onto many deep insights concerning reality, life, death, and any spiritual notion of an "afterlife". However there is some immediate, practical worth to glean here.

Consider Raine's most recent copy+paste article, a man missed being diagnosed with Cancer. So instead of prevention and treatment, he developed the case of most severe cancer that leads to a guaranteed death sentence. And this idea of a death sentence is most apt and relevant to philosophy. Because… for a "common man", or woman, these people neither think of nor consider death in daily life and activities. There are many reasons behind this truth (which will save for another day). People generally avoid thinking of death; because seriously thinking about it leads to emotions of fear and other 'negativity'. People generally keep these "negative" thoughts & feelings to themselves. And such things are not talked about in publik.

However Cancer is different, along with many other medical diagnoses and symptoms. Some people are given that death sentence by a doctor. And people generally trust doctors in this without doubt or second-thought. If your doctor tells you that you will die… then you will die. And it is not until this death sentence is passed (could be passed by the gallows for a crime committed as well) that the commoner suddenly lights that fire of philosophical foresight and vision. You finally realize:

"I will die, and soon."

But this realization is all too familiar with the "philosophical" mindset as quoted above. Those who are deep thinkers, probably "far too serious", philosophers, etc. have already considered this fact and attempted to come to terms with it, if only barely. Yes it's true that all life will die; death balances life and vice-versa. That what lives, dies. And that what dies, lives again. These reflect biological, natural laws.

However the point of this message is as follows (TLDR version):

Most people do not encounter such a death sentence in life until death approaches very soon. Maybe your doctor passes the sentence. Or maybe a criminal judge passes the sentence. But it is most rare that you pass the sentence upon yourself first, far in advance. And you have not! Unless you are a philosopher… you have not truly accepted the idea that "I will die, and soon." Because if a large portion of the human population did accept this… then what would be the consequences? People would live as-if it were your final days. Because who knows when death approaches? Today could be your last… maybe you have 100 years remaining, maybe 100 seconds. Can you see Death coming?

To pass the sentence upon yourself, to truly understand and realize this, is the philosophical endeavor with a history of over MM years.

Because once you do pass the sentence upon yourself, as rare as it maybe, is to enter the philosophical arena of thinkers. You will die, as all life dies. But now you finally begin to understand it… is there an afterlife or not??? Do you receive some mystical, spiritual "second chance"? And how much time does an individual have? And what is the true worth and value of this limited time?

Do you value it? Did you ever even begin to think about it?

Siberian Cold Breeze
06-17-2014, 07:16 AM
Too much thinking ...

Mind is an offshoot of ego , Death is end of ego .
By thinking about death , we simply try to use mind which is made to keep you alive and alert , to overcome ego and fear. Paradoxical.
Death is a spontenous and natural . Nothing can teach you how to die or prepare you for death .Animals and small children die with no fear .As we grow , our minds and bodies get stronger we defend ourselves stronger against death but when body gets weaker it will be easier to give up .Therefore, fear or defence won't be that strong .

The more you think the more you will be afraid.Just leave it to your body , it knows how to deal when time has come..

Breedingvariety
06-17-2014, 07:44 AM
Too much thinking ...
That's exactly what most people say. But if there was too much thinking, wouldn't most people say too little thinking? I'm a contrarian to what most people say. Not because I'm negative party pooper. But because I've found most people are wrong. And when I'm non the wiser, I'll assume they are wrong again.

Mind is an offshoot of ego , Death is end of ego .
I don't know. Mindless people can be pretty egotistical.

Siberian Cold Breeze
06-17-2014, 09:06 AM
That's exactly what most people say. But if there was too much thinking, wouldn't most people say too little thinking? I'm a contrarian to what most people say. Not because I'm negative party pooper. But because I've found most people are wrong. And when I'm non the wiser, I'll assume they are wrong again.

I don't know. Mindless people can be pretty egotistical.

You are right

I don't know if people think about death.Yes ,we think ..We think when we are depressed .But can we think ourselves dead in real meaning..not a ghost watching above or going to a better place ?

I don't use ego in that meaning..
Mind protects our life ,but against death mind is defenseless .That creates the fear. When you are unconscious (mind is not there )you can't defend yourself.But you won't be afraid either.

Breedingvariety
06-17-2014, 02:19 PM
But can we think ourselves dead in real meaning..not a ghost watching above or going to a better place ?
I think we can think ourselves dead in two ways. Either with the mood of resignation from this world, what paradoxically feels like being more alive than ever. Or with most cold fanaticism, what also feels like being very alive. The former way relinquishes all secular power and embraces afterlife. The later way is how ultimate secular power is seized.

Strange, but not thinking about death makes us less alive.

Unome
06-17-2014, 05:36 PM
To think about and consider death, is also to inversely come to understand the value and worth of life.

This is the reason-why the "unexamined life is not worth living". Because its worth is contingent upon its value. And value is unknown until death takes life from the living.

Imagine you were immortal and could not die… then your actions in life would have no value, no worth. Because there is no risk, no waiting death, attached to them.

For example, stop breathing or stop drinking water… then you quickly realize the value of water and air.

Siberian Cold Breeze
06-17-2014, 05:48 PM
I wrote mostly for a person with a terminal illness.

Ofcourse I am aware that if we live our lives with no perception of our mortality ,we would guarantee unsatisfaction and greed ..
If we pretend death will never come , life would be meaningless..I agree .

This is just too complicated ,for example mostly religions use concept of death as a control tool and (except buddhism ) they underline pain ,suffering and punisment ..basicly they manupulate our natural fear of death ,carry it to another level.

I mostly admire Zen masters approach ..No rewards , no punishments , no contemplation... Dogs die peacefully ..Why can't we?

Breedingvariety
06-17-2014, 06:09 PM
This is jusy too complicated ,for example mostly religions use concept of death as a control tool and (except buddhism ) they underline pain ,suffering and punisment ..basicly they manupulate our natural fear of death ,carry it to another level.
I think organised religions just like politics manipulate peoples stupidity mostly. They scare people by making them think death is unnatural state of being, when really life we live is unnatural state of being, IMO.

I just don't see how awareness of our mortality can be a negative phenomena.

Unome
06-17-2014, 06:12 PM
Siberian,

I've seen humans and animals who feared death horrifically. Some animals die peacefully, some in horror. Some lifeforms don't see it coming, others do. Sometimes a person can prepare, sometimes not. Sometimes people think about it, other times not once throughout a whole lifetime.

There are countless reactions to both life & death, either positive or negative.

Breedingvariety
06-17-2014, 06:26 PM
I've seen humans and animals who feared death horrifically. Some animals die peacefully, some in horror. Some lifeforms don't see it coming, others do. Sometimes a person can prepare, sometimes not. Sometimes people think about it, other times not once throughout a whole lifetime.

There are countless reactions to both life & death, either positive or negative.
IMO, the small criticism to Buddhism is its over simplicity and lack of definitions. That's why it's not 100% philosophical, even when it is 100% wise.

Siberian Cold Breeze
06-17-2014, 06:34 PM
I think organised religions just like politics manipulate peoples stupidity mostly. They scare people by making them think death is unnatural state of being, when really life we live is unnatural state of being, IMO.

I just don't see how awareness of our mortality can be a negative phenomena.

No I didn't say aweraness of mortality is negative.Sorry ,I fail explaining it in English . Awereness is positive ofcourse as I told ,agreed you before.

We can't accept the fact when we die it is over , like leaves fallen,we fall , new ones green up , fallen ones rot ,feed the living ones.This circle goes on .
Life and death are same thing, circling .

Being human we think we are special.Death teaches a good lesson that we are no different than other beings . Our human minds are not ready to stomach this .Are we aware of this?

Breedingvariety
06-17-2014, 06:49 PM
Being human we think we are special.Death teaches a good lesson that we are no different than other beings . Our human minds are not ready to stomach this .Are we aware of this?
In one sense we aren't different from other beings. On the other hand, we as humans are highest consciousness on earth.

Siberian Cold Breeze
06-17-2014, 06:59 PM
IMO, the small criticism to Buddhism is its over simplicity and lack of definitions. That's why it's not 100% philosophical, even when it is 100% wise.
That's what I mean by overthinking.I don't think we can overcome it by extremely complicated intellectual philosophies.

Zen Buddism is different than traditional buddism , it is found of sudden enlightenment by paradoxes .
It is more an approach and practise , a method, way of living than a philosophy . But I don't think I can explain it in English .I recommend D.T Suzuki and koans .


In one sense we aren't different from other beings. On the other hand, we as humans are highest consciousness on earth.

I don't agree. We are not highest .There is no such ladder.

Breedingvariety
06-17-2014, 07:05 PM
That's what I mean by overthinking.I don't think we can overcome it by extremely complicated intellectual philosophies.

Zen Buddism is different than traditional buddism , it is found of sudden enlightenment by paradoxes .
It is more an approach and practise , a method, way of living than a philosophy . But I don't think I can explain it in English .I recommend D.T Suzuki and koans .
Zen Buddhism focuses on silence, doesn't it?

I don't agree. We are not highest .There is no such ladder.
Would you say insects life and human life is of equal value and of equal suffering?

Siberian Cold Breeze
06-17-2014, 07:21 PM
Zen Buddhism focuses on silence, doesn't it?

Rather focuses on constant awereness . But also it is a nonlineer in thinking and wholistic in approach , similar to gestalt but it is a disipline and life style .

Later edit : Zen underlines inner experience and therefore cannot put into words Different than western intellectual thinking and logic.


Would you say insects life and human life is of equal value and of equal suffering?


I have never been an insect .
In the eyes of nature we are in a circle , there are no ladders .These type of hierarchies are in our minds only.