23andme VS FTDNA y-DNA Test Results

[Maleficent]

I woke up this morning to find that I had received four emails from FTDNA stating that about half(I had ordered the Y-DNA67 + mtFullSequence, also mtFullSequence for myself) of my father's y-DNA test results are ready. Of course I'm excited. Now I received my father's 23andme results around late June 2013. According to 23andme, my father's paternal haplogroup is E1b1b1c1a, which should supposedly be E-M84 in shortform. So I login to my father's FTDNA account to find "Your predicted haplogroup is E-L117". Needless to say, I'm stunned. I understand 23andme is not completely accurate with haplogroup groupings, but I still expected to find E-M84 plus whatever deep clade cluster grouping. E-L117 is apparently another way of saying E-M35?! Apparently E-L117 was formerly known as E-M35.1 so presumably he is simply E1b1b1 in longform(ISOGG 2014 E). Under the 'Y-DNA Haplotree' though, this all seems to be under the 'Presumed Positive' color coding and not the 'Tested Positive' color coding. Possibly because this is not the full 67-marker result and I'm still awaiting more?! My father's ethno-religious background is 100% Palestinian-Christian. He was born in Jerusalem but his ancestry 75% from Birzeit and 25% from Ramallah since just his paternal grandmother was from Ramallah and the rest of his entire family from Birzeit. He also has a very large well-documented direct-paternal family tree going back at least 600 years in the exact same village(Birzeit). For reference, Birzeit is only 13 miles north of Jerusalem and even closer to Ramallah, and it's a traditionally and historically very Christian village. E-M84 is the subclade grandson/son of E-M123 and E-M34, all three of which are pretty well established as very Levantine and very Semitic subclades of E1b1b. I felt ecstatic and reassured to know that my paternal line was Ancient-Levantine for sure; but this new haplogroup assignment is not so much that specific, I don't think. So.....I'm sort of at a loss here until I receive the full exact 67-marker result in a few more weeks' time.

1. Do I really have a completely different haplogroup assignment on FTDNA than 23andme?

2. If yes to question 1, how common is this? (I'm fully aware I should have sort expected this considering FTDNA is well-known for being completely accurate with haplogroups, whereas 23andme not so much).

3. Will I know everything I need to know once the full 67-marker result is in?

4. Do I really need to purchase SNPs(for example I'm thinking of E-M123/E-M34/E-M84 for sure)? (I thought it wouldn't be necessary since I ordered such a large marker test).

That's all the major questions I can think of for now.

I consider myself more of an expert(amateur, of course) on this stuff than the average person, but at the same time I am not claiming to be a major expert by any means.

I'm especially looking for input from: E1b1b folks, Middle Eastern-Christian folks, any sort of Levantine folks(Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Druze, etc.), anyone who is an FTDNA or haplogroup expert.

Thank you so much for any help in advance.

BTW: If you recognize the exact same thread in the 23andme forum(I made the thread there first) please don't link it because I've got my real name in my account over there and all that jazz.

[Stormer99]

You can access your SNPs at 23andme. All you have to do is browse raw data.

[Yehiel]

In terms of haplogroups i would trust in FTDNA. If you go to the haplogroup tree mutation mapper in 23andme (ancestry tools) you can see your father haplogroup and if they missed any snp, if so that could explain the different subglade..

It is not common but ive seen this before.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

I woke up this morning to find that I had received four emails from FTDNA stating that about half(I had ordered the Y-DNA67 + mtFullSequence, also mtFullSequence for myself) of my father's y-DNA test results are ready. Of course I'm excited. Now I received my father's 23andme results around late June 2013. According to 23andme, my father's paternal haplogroup is E1b1b1c1a, which should supposedly be E-M84 in shortform. So I login to my father's FTDNA account to find "Your predicted haplogroup is E-L117". Needless to say, I'm stunned. I understand 23andme is not completely accurate with haplogroup groupings, but I still expected to find E-M84 plus whatever deep clade cluster grouping. E-L117 is apparently another way of E-M35?! Apparently E-L117 was formerly known as E-M35.1 so presumably he is simply E1b1b1 in longform(ISOGG 2014 E). Under the 'Y-DNA Haplotree' though, this all seems to be under the 'Presumed Positive' color coding and not the 'Tested Positive' color coding. Possibly because this is not the full 67-marker result and I'm still awaiting more?! My father's ethno-religious background is 100% Palestinian-Christian. He was born in Jerusalem but his ancestry 75% from Birzeit and 25% from Ramallah since just his paternal grandmother was from Ramallah and the rest of his entire family from Birzeit. He also has a very large well-documented direct-paternal family tree going back at least 600 years in the exact same village(Birzeit). For reference, Birzeit is only 13 miles north of Jerusalem and even closer to Ramallah, and it's a traditionally and historically very Christian village. E-M84 is the subclade grandson/son of E-M123 and E-M34, all three of which are pretty well established as very Levantine and very Semitic subclades of E1b1b. I felt ecstatic and reassured to know that my paternal line was Ancient-Levantine for sure; but this new haplogroup assignment is not so much that specific, I don't think. So.....I'm sort of at a loss here until I receive the full exact 67-marker result in a few more weeks' time.

1. Do I really have a completely different haplogroup assignment on FTDNA than 23andme?

2. If yes to question 1, how common is this? (I'm fully aware I should have sort expected this considering FTDNA is well-known for being completely accurate with haplogroups, whereas 23andme not so much).

3. Will I know everything I need to know once the full 67-marker result is in?

4. Do I really need to purchase SNPs? (I thought it wouldn't be necessary since I ordered such a large marker test).

That's all the major questions I can think of for now.

I consider myself more of an expert(amateur, of course) on this stuff than the average person, but at the same time I am not claiming to be a major expert by any means.

I'm especially looking for input from: E1b1b folks, Middle Eastern-Christian folks, any sort of Levantine folks(Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Druze, etc.), anyone who is an FTDNA or haplogroup expert.

Thank you so much for any help in advance.

BTW: If you recognize the exact same thread in the 23andme forum(I made the thread there first) please don't link it because I've got my real name in my account over there and all that jazz.

I dont know the E-haplogroups but if your 23 and me result is a sublade of your FTDNA haplo its likely accurate. Meaning you should try Y SNP marker for your 23 and me haplogroup. You wrote alot.

Yes if you want deeper Y-subclade results you will have to do more Y marker tests with FTDNA

23and me predicted me for j2b2 which is correct,
without SNP testing I am J-m172 (FTDNA)
but narrowed down, j2b, than j2b2, than j-L283 which is my final FTDNA Y subclade as if this moment

If you want you can try to skip the markers. Look for Y Haplogroup predictor to try to get whats most likely your haplogroup. Its what I did for testing J2b and found I might next likely which was j2b2 which eventually turned out correct anyways

[Maleficent]

You can access your SNPs at 23andme. All you have to do is browse raw data.
I'm specifically referring to the FTDNA SNPs, they are extra and you have to purchase them separately. The 23andme ones are not fully developed and also difficult to interpret.

In terms of haplogroups i would trust in FTDNA. If you go to the haplogroup tree mutation mapper in 23andme (ancestry tools) you can see your father haplogroup and if they missed any snp, if so that could explain the different subglade..

It is not common but ive seen this before.
I'm aware of that tool, that's how I figured out I'm an E-M84 in the first place. But now I'm second-guessing it all.....

[HellLander87]

ftdna usually states your snp assgnment after testing for a particular snp. Individual snp test costs 39$.But there is no need too imo.Your father is m84+.Judging by his haplotype you may order if you want an snp that descends from m84 if there are any.

[Maleficent]

I dont know the E-haplogroups but if your 23 and me result is a sublade of your FTDNA haplo its likely accurate. Meaning you should try Y SNP marker for your 23 and me haplogroup. You wrote alot.

Yes if you want deeper Y-subclade results you will have to do more Y marker tests with FTDNA

23and me predicted me for j2b2 which is correct,
without SNP testing I am J-m172 (FTDNA)
but narrowed down, j2b, than j2b2, than j-L283 which is my final FTDNA Y subclade as if this moment

If you want you can try to skip the markers. Look for Y Haplogroup predictor to try to get whats most likely your haplogroup. Its what I did for testing J2b and found I might next likely which was j2b2 which eventually turned out correct anywaysYes I believe the 23andme prediction is a subgroup of the FTDNA prediction:
See these screenshots, look carefully:
http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad102/FaerieQueene517/f7402921e2cebd573230e5dedbfd5f29_zps73cbbfa6.jpg

http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad102/FaerieQueene517/2530e79ae7e04e55935f2fc63c090706_zps4cecb9ff.jpg

http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad102/FaerieQueene517/2853bb2dabb3b4472ea8febc140f8978_zpsc776cc46.jpg


ftdna usually states your snp assgnment after testing for a particular snp. Individual snp test costs 39$.But there is no need too imo.Your father is m84+.Judging by his haplotype you may order if you want an snp that descends from m84 if there are any.
Okay, it's good to be reassured that he's definitely M84 at the minimum. According to this article, there are two major subclades of M84: M136 and M290(but they are supposedly very rare). Also looking at that article, there's five major clusters of M84 itself, which is my main reason in testing with FTDNA, so I can know for sure which cluster I am.
http://www.haplozone.net/wiki/index.php?title=E-M34#E1b1b1c1a_.28E-M84.29

[Longbowman]

Weird. But bear in mind not all E1b1b1c1as are the same. There are 5 subclades and people will have other mutations. What the sites give you is a 'best fit.' But someone already said, you can download the raw data and do independent checks :)

[random]

Don't worry, you're Ethiopian anyways.

[SardiniaAtlantis]

Weird. But bear in mind not all E1b1b1c1as are the same. There are 5 subclades and people will have other mutations. What the sites give you is a 'best fit.' But someone already said, you can download the raw data and do independent checks :)

I was about to point this out exactly!

[Isleño]

FTDNA is more accurate than 23andme regarding haplogroups, yes.

[StonyArabia]

E1b lineages can be confusing.

[curupira]

In terms of haplogroups i would trust in FTDNA.

Yep, on both yDNA and mtDNA FamilyTreeDNA is better. MyOrigins is catching up with 23andme on the autosomal too.

[Yehiel]

Yep, on both yDNA and mtDNA FamilyTreeDNA is better. MyOrigins is catching up with 23andme on the autosomal too.

my current MyOrigins is much more accurate than the new 23andme..

[Anglojew]

Congrats on your indigenousness to Israel/Palestine.


What is the paper about in simple words:
There are about 8% of Jewish male lines and some percent of Arabian male lines originated from a man called E1b1b1c1 and about 4% of Jewish male lines and some percent of Arabian male lines originated from another man called E1b1b1c1a. E1b1b1c1a was a descendant of E1b1b1c1. We wanted to check if the common ancestor of the Jews and the Arabs E1b1b1c1 or E1b1b1c1a was biblical Abraham. How did we study it? It is known that the descendants of Abraham are the Israelites, the Jewish priests — Cohens, the Arabs and the Seyyids. If Abraham was E1b1b1c1 or E1b1b1c1a, the calculated time to most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) of the Israelites', Cohens' and Arabian E1b1b1c1 or E1b1b1c1a lines would be about 4000 years before present (lifetime of biblical Abraham) and 1400 years before present for the Seyyids (lifetime of imam Ali). We calculated different times for the groups listed above, so Abraham could not be E1b1b1c1 or E1b1b1c1a.
Other conclusions of the paper:
- the ancestors of the Jews of E1b1b1c1 and E1b1b1c1a lines were included in Jewish community during the conquest of Canaan.
- the Jewish and Arabian E1b1b1c1a lines are close one to the other, their common ancestor lived 4080±1440 years ago, so, most probably, both are descendants of ancient Canaanites.

http://myfamilytree.livejournal.com/71106.html

Keep in mind the use of the term "Arab/Arabian" above is linguistic. In reality you're Levantine not Arabian. You're a member of the Bani Isra'il

[Maleficent]

Congrats on your indigenousness to Israel/Palestine.



http://myfamilytree.livejournal.com/71106.html

Keep in mind the use of the term "Arab/Arabian" above is linguistic. In reality you're Levantine not Arabian. You're a member of the Bani Isra'il

Well hahaha, I already knew all of this information, dude. xD

:)

[Anglojew]

Well hahaha, I already knew all of this information, dude. xD

:)

Fair enough. I wonder if your ancestors were literally Jewish, or pre-Jewish Israelites, or common Canaanite ancestors of both Palestinians and Jews?

[Maleficent]

Fair enough. I wonder if your ancestors were literally Jewish, or pre-Jewish Israelites, or common Canaanite ancestors of both Palestinians and Jews?

Hmm, I really thought about it, and the best answer I can come up with is that not even Jews themselves will be able to properly answer this question about themselves. Considering there's not really any proper human historical documentation from 25,000 years ago(for example).

The thing is, all we really know is with DNA testing and Semitic haplogroups, there's only two divisions and that's it: Jewish and Arab. If you know you're of Semitic lineage and you get yourself involved in DNA testing, at the end of the day you're either a Jew or an Arab and that's all there is to it. Be merry and be happy.

[Anglojew]

Hmm, I really thought about it, and the best answer I can come up with is that not even Jews themselves will be able to properly answer this question about themselves. Considering there's not really any proper human historical documentation from 25,000 years ago(for example).

The thing is, all we really know is with DNA testing and Semitic haplogroups, there's only two divisions and that's it: Jewish and Arab. If you know you're of Semitic lineage and you get yourself involved in DNA testing, at the end of the day you're either a Jew or an Arab and that's all there is to it. Be merry and be happy.

The common ancestor is much more recent though (4080BP±1440). I think you're probably genetically an Arabised Jew/Israelite like most Palestinians.

[Maleficent]

The common ancestor is much more recent though (4080BP±1440). I think you're probably genetically an Arabised Jew/Israelite like most Palestinians.

Well I can't accept that anyway because that insinuates that Palestinian Christians and Muslims are the same and I'm not changing my belief that the Christians and Muslims are completely different ethnicities and histories.

[Artek]

FTDNA is more accurate, especially after the new haplotree was introduced and bugfixed. They gonna update this new haplotree this year!

[Anglojew]

Well I can't accept that anyway because that insinuates that Palestinian Christians and Muslims are the same and I'm not changing my belief that the Christians and Muslims are completely different ethnicities and histories.

Some Muslim clans are basically Kurds or Arabians.

Many Muslim clans are Samaritan though.

Probably Muslim clans are more Arabian admixed and Christians more Levantine.

[Yehiel]

Fair enough. I wonder if your ancestors were literally Jewish, or pre-Jewish Israelites, or common Canaanite ancestors of both Palestinians and Jews?

We are not canaanite... we mixed with them and thats why Jews have so many other middle eastern haplogroups.. I believe the only haplogroups that can confirm most likely Israelite since the beginning is J1 or j2.. especially if your last name is Cohen or your Jewish..

[Hubal]

^that's still a debate, could be either E or J1 but definitely not J2

[Yehiel]

^that's still a debate, could be either E or J1 but definitely not J2

j-p58 is the most common haplogroup among Cohenim at 46% which is j1 the second most common one was j2.. Cohenim are descendents from Aaron... so i would take them as the best representation of the ancient Israelite haplogroups..

[Maleficent]

Hmm, guys, I thought it was well established that J2 isn't as Semitic as previously thought.

[Yehiel]

Hmm, guys, I thought it was well established that J2 isn't as Semitic as previously thought.

It is a mystery which haplogroup it is but i would guess based on the information i know now to be j1..

[Maleficent]

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/E1b1b-tree.gif

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/J1-tree.gif

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/J2-tree.gif

[Yehiel]

ive read e1b is most popular among the palestinian xians.. it also popular amongst Sefardi Jews.

[Smeagol]

j-p58 is the most common haplogroup among Cohenim at 46% which is j1 the second most common one was j2.. Cohenim are descendents from Aaron... so i would take them as the best representation of the ancient Israelite haplogroups..

Don't Jews with the last name Cohen have to marry other Cohens? I think Sacha Baron Cohen probably represents best what a pure ancient Israelite looks like.

[Yehiel]

Don't Jews with the last name Cohen have to marry other Cohens? I think Sacha Baron Cohen probably represents best what a pure ancient Israelite looks like.

Ive not heard of this, it could be true but to be honest i do not know...

Yes, i say this a lot. Have you ever noticed that Ashkenazi Jews with the last name Cohen are almost always darker and have more Middle Eastern vibe to them then non-Cohen Ashkenazim?

[Smeagol]

Ive not heard of this, it could be true but to be honest i do not know...

Yes, i say this a lot. Have you ever noticed that Ashkenazi Jews with the last name Cohen are almost always darker and have more Middle Eastern vibe to them then non-Cohen Ashkenazim?

That should be the case if they only marry other Cohens, but if they just married any other Ashkenazi for thousands of years, then they would look no different than the average I guess.

[Yehiel]

That should be the case if they only marry other Cohens, but if they just married any other Ashkenazi for thousands of years, then they would look no different than the average I guess.

i know they cannot marry converts, so that is probably the reason

[Smeagol]

i know they cannot marry converts, so that is probably the reason

Could be.

[Maleficent]

I have two updates:

1. Yesterday I received the rest of the 48-67 STR markers for the test(which seems like a waste at this point since I don't seem to have any paternal line matches at the 67 marker level).

2. I was told by a fellow E1b1b1c1a person on anthroscape to register over at Haplozone/Double~Helix and have my paternal line raw data from FTDNA examined over there so that I may be finally placed in a cluster. I registered last night and my account was confirmed this morning. It took less than an hour for the expert to place me in a cluster: E-M84-B or Cluster-B of E1b1b1c1a, which is a Jewish cluster.

This is the message I was given from the expert:

I did a manual upload of kit "blank" so you can start running some comparisons with our existing data if you like. But for the moment you won't have access to modify this record until we run the regular data update procedure, which we're currently doing about once a month, and we can validate email addresses, etc.

What I see now is that your record fits closely with what we currently know as cluster E-M84-B, which confirms your 23andMe results. Keep in mind, however, that we're currently getting a lot of new Geno 2.0 and Big Y data results with many new SNP variants which may further resolve this cluster into finer branches when we have a chance to sort out the latest tree topology. So, you'll have to keep an eye on future developments here.

[Longbowman]

I have two updates:

1. Yesterday I received the rest of the 48-67 STR markers for the test(which seems like a waste at this point since I don't seem to have any paternal line matches at the 67 marker level).

2. I was told by a fellow E1b1b1c1a person on anthroscape to register over at Haplozone/Double~Helix and have my paternal line raw data from FTDNA examined over there so that I may be finally placed in a cluster. I registered last night and my account was confirmed this morning. It took less than an hour for the expert to place me in a cluster: E-M84-B or Cluster-B of E1b1b1c1a, which is a Jewish cluster.

This is the message I was given from the expert:

I hadn't heard of this. I'll register and do the same :)

Perhaps we'll be from the same cluster?

[Stefan_Dusan]

I have two updates:

1. Yesterday I received the rest of the 48-67 STR markers for the test(which seems like a waste at this point since I don't seem to have any paternal line matches at the 67 marker level).

Even if you don't have any matches (and I'm a particular case of this as I have no matches after just 12 STRs) you can still compare your results and calculate approximate/estimated years to a common progenitor. The more STRs, the better this estimate is. Even at 37 STRs, it can be widely inaccurate.

[Maleficent]

I hadn't heard of this. I'll register and do the same :)Have you done FTDNA? As far as I know it doesn't work with 23andme raw data. (I forgot which other companies it works with though).
Perhaps we'll be from the same cluster?Yeah, maybe. :p

[Longbowman]

Have you done FTDNA? As far as I know it doesn't work with 23andme raw data. (I forgot which other companies it works with though).Yeah, maybe. :p

I haven't done FTDNA, no. Curses.

[Maleficent]

Even if you don't have any matches (and I'm a particular case of this as I have no matches after just 12 STRs) you can still compare your results and calculate approximate/estimated years to a common progenitor. The more STRs, the better this estimate is. Even at 37 STRs, it can be widely inaccurate.

Very interesting, Stefan. Can you explain this further so I can fully understand?

[Stefan_Dusan]

Very interesting, Stefan. Can you explain this further so I can fully understand?

They have some crude formulas that based on the "mutation rate" and "average generation age" you can calculate the predictive time to a common ancestor. This is me making up numbers, but if the mutation rate is one mutation per 2 generations, in other words 0.5, and on 12 STR markers you guys have 1 mutation that separates you, then the average number of mutations is 1 (the one mutation that separates you) / 24 (your 12 + his 12) = 0.04167 mutations. You then divide by the mutation rate to get the number of generations, in this case 0.5, so 0.08333. Now if you estimate the average generation is 30 years, you find you are separated by 2.5 years with my made up numbers. 2.5 years is not significant so we would lead to conclusion to the people are related like brothers.

This is just a shorthand formula, each marker/loci has a calculated mutation rate, and you could do weighted averages over each loci to get a better approximation (see here for mutation rates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-STR)

Now here is where more markers come into play. When I ordered my 37STRs, I got my first 12 back. At this stage I matched 3 people (Armenians funny enough) exactly over those 12 STRs. So if we were to do the above formula, we could get 0 years. However, by the time I got my full 37 STRs, I widened to 7 mutations separating us, which makes the age between 1,000 to 3,000 years depending on which mutation rates you pick. So with this I ordered a 67 STR test, despite not matching anyone at 37, just to see if the gap between me and them widens (most probable scenario) or even decreases (not likely but possible). Still waiting on results. In all 111 markers gives you the best estimate if it interests you.

[randomguy1235]

Well I can't accept that anyway because that insinuates that Palestinian Christians and Muslims are the same and I'm not changing my belief that the Christians and Muslims are completely different ethnicities and histories.

Umm....What?

[Maleficent]

Umm....What?

Okay I take back using the word 'completely'.

[randomguy1235]

Okay I take back using the word 'completely'.

If you don't mind, could you elaborate? Why do you think we're different ethnicities?

[Maleficent]

If you don't mind, could you elaborate? Why do you think we're different ethnicities?

Aside from trolling or exaggerating, I honestly am still confused after all this time as to how two groups of people who only intermarried on very rare occasions(and was mainly taboo to do so) can be ethnically/genetically the exact same. I grew up with the impression that Palestinian Christian and Palestinian Muslim is the same nationality/culture whereas Palestinian Christian and Lebanese Christian is the same ethnicity/culture(and so on, and so forth with other such comparisons). I also don't get how it's fair Coptics are considered separate from Egyptians and Assyrians are considered separate from Iraqis.....these are Christian groups but Christianity was actually born in Palestine, so why not say the same for Palestine?! If I keep ranting this is gonna get too political but it all leads back to Israel only wanting the world to believe Jews are indigenous and no one else, along with too much pan-Arabism/Arab-nationalism in association with the Palestinian cause.

[randomguy1235]

Aside from trolling or exaggerating, I honestly am still confused after all this time as to how two groups of people who only intermarried on very rare occasions(and was mainly taboo to do so) can be ethnically/genetically the exact same. I grew up with the impression that Palestinian Christian and Palestinian Muslim is the same nationality/culture whereas Palestinian Christian and Lebanese Christian is the same ethnicity/culture(and so on, and so forth with other such comparisons). I also don't get how it's fair Coptics are considered separate from Egyptians and Assyrians are considered separate from Iraqis.....these are Christian groups but Christianity was actually born in Palestine, so why not say the same for Palestine?! If I keep ranting this is gonna get too political but it all leads back to Israel only wanting the world to believe Jews are indigenous and no one else, along with too much pan-Arabism/Arab-nationalism in association with the Palestinian cause.
Fair enough. It is important to note, however, that only Assyrians genetically differ from a substantial amount of the Iraqi Arab populace (Iraqi Arabs who're descended from the Arabian tribes that immigrated to Iraq after its decimation at the hands of the Mongol horde in the mid 13th century). Egypt isn't an ethnically heterogeneous country to begin with, but Copts don't differ much at all from their Muslim counterparts besides culturally and politically. Conversely, Pali Christians only differ substantially from Gazan Muslims. West Bank Palestinian Muslims and Christians are a homogenous peoples.

[Yehiel]

Conversely, Pali Christians only differ substantially from Gazan Muslims. West Bank Palestinian Muslims and Christians are a homogenous peoples.

[Kamal900]

Aside from trolling or exaggerating, I honestly am still confused after all this time as to how two groups of people who only intermarried on very rare occasions(and was mainly taboo to do so) can be ethnically/genetically the exact same. I grew up with the impression that Palestinian Christian and Palestinian Muslim is the same nationality/culture whereas Palestinian Christian and Lebanese Christian is the same ethnicity/culture(and so on, and so forth with other such comparisons). I also don't get how it's fair Coptics are considered separate from Egyptians and Assyrians are considered separate from Iraqis.....these are Christian groups but Christianity was actually born in Palestine, so why not say the same for Palestine?! If I keep ranting this is gonna get too political but it all leads back to Israel only wanting the world to believe Jews are indigenous and no one else, along with too much pan-Arabism/Arab-nationalism in association with the Palestinian cause.

Can you please elaborate on what do you mean by ethnicities? There are Arab, Persian, Assyrian, Kurdish, Turkish, Luri and etc and all of them can belong to any religion, whether its Islam, Christianity, Zoroastrianism and etc. If a Palestinian christian became an atheist, what ethnicity that Palestinian belongs to then? Culture means a set of beliefs that a particular society belongs too, and i do agree on the fact that Christians and Muslims have different cultures and way of life, but not ethnicity. Copts are Egyptian muslims are BOTH egyptians, and they share the same heritage of their ancestors, and to claim that Christians are primarily descended from Phoenicians, and the muslims are purely Arabian then thats pure bullshit. Oh, and the reason why both christians and muslims rarely intermarry is because of their beliefs. In Islam, it is permissible to marry a christian or a jew maternally, not because of "racial" reasons. Religion is nothing but stupid myths, especially the abrahamic religion. If i tomorrow converted to the Maronite church will you see me as an "ethnic" christian?i

Visit this site of ex-christian and ex-muslim levantine atheists, they dont see the bullshit of religions.
https://www.facebook.com/AtheistSocietyLebanon

Oh, and btw, both the lebanese christians and muslims cluster with one another. The reason why they are a bit apart from each other in the PCA charts is because of admixture. Regardless, Pierre Zalloua dont agree on you're assessment that Christians are VERY different from muslims.
http://www.natureasia.com/en/nmiddleeast/article/10.1038/nmiddleeast.2013.46

Also, Palestinian muslims are also very close to Samaritans as shown in this chart:
http://s27.postimg.org/5p9cnwgfn/Globe13.jpg

[Myth]

I am descended from cohanim and I am j p58. The Samaritan kohen are e1b I believe but their last cohen I think died out back in 1400, most Samaritans are j1

[Myth]

Don't Jews with the last name Cohen have to marry other Cohens? I think Sacha Baron Cohen probably represents best what a pure ancient Israelite looks like.

Not in modern time no, Cohen's can't marry converts and also restrictions on marrying even someone born Jewish if say the father is not Jewish. They are strict who they can marry. Not all Cohen's are cohanim, some adopted the name or changed their name to cohen especially in Russia.

[StonyArabia]

Fair enough. It is important to note, however, that only Assyrians genetically differ from a substantial amount of the Iraqi Arab populace (Iraqi Arabs who're descended from the Arabian tribes that immigrated to Iraq after its decimation at the hands of the Mongol horde in the mid 13th century). Egypt isn't an ethnically heterogeneous country to begin with, but Copts don't differ much at all from their Muslim counterparts besides culturally and politically. Conversely, Pali Christians only differ substantially from Gazan Muslims. West Bank Palestinian Muslims and Christians are a homogenous peoples.

Iraqi Arabs are mostly descendant of Bedouin tribes that adopted Shiaism recently mostly due to the conversions that the clergy encouraged, and before as result of the Musha‘sha’iyyah a mystical Shia sect. As well the Persian clergy (many of whom were of Southern Lebanese and East Arabian origins), who encouraged the conversion of these tribes into Shiaism in the 18th century, and only in the 19th century all of the tribes in the South portion of Iraq were converted to Shiaism some tribes got split into two groupings of northern and southern. Those who are Sunni became northern clans despite not living in the north, and those living in the south became the southern clans. That said this clergy had little success to convert the Syrian Desert tribes whom they actually aimed at, well northern Iraq became Sunni and strong loyal element to the Ottomans. Though yes Iraqi Arabs are of Bedouin origin mostly from the Arabian Desert, and originally they were not Shias, some of the tribes in Ahwaz are shifting to Sunnism and this will eventually happen to most of the Iraqi Arab tribes.

[Maleficent]

.....

This particular thread is extremely important to me. DON'T spam it with offtopic crap.

People should be discussing my revelatory ydna results which substantiated all my theories about my direct paternal ancestry.

[StonyArabia]

This particular thread is extremely important to me. DON'T spam it with offtopic crap.

People should be discussing my revelatory ydna results which substantiated all my theories about my direct paternal ancestry.

How it's off topic, I was only reaffirming what randomguy was stating which is factual and plus an important historically and geopolitically.

[Germaniac]

I'm not gonna be long, but even though most say haplogroup E is African in origins, there are many researches providing evidence it is actually southwestern Asian in origin. That said, I believe the original Jews and Arabs were mostly or entirely J1. Furthermore, haplogroup E seems to be one of the most ancient, if not the most in Levant. As for Maleficent's father, I believe his line couldn't be more Levantine in any way, shape or form. He is not of Arab extraction, he is a native to that land. Even though there might be a tad of Arab blood running through his veins, I believe it's close to zero, as Palestinian Christians weren't Arabised to a great extent, like Levantine Muslims were. I believe Palestinian Christians, along with some Syrian and most Lebanese Christians are the closest population alive today to ancient, native Levantines. My family photographer, a Lebanese Maronite, for example, looks 0% Arabised. He actually looks quite light, and with features such he'd pass in some parts of Southern Europe. Most Levantine Christians I know could pass in some parts of Europe, whereas most Levantine Muslims I've seen cannot. This photographer of mine once took a 23andme test, after talking to some friends, and he told me about his results. His Y DNA haplogroup is E-M84-B, that's why I mentioned him. To me he looks like what I'd expect an ancient Levantine to look. I'm enclosing his picture, which I'll soon delete.
pic removed

[Maleficent]

I'm not gonna be long, but even though most say haplogroup E is African in origins, there are many researches providing evidence it is actually southwestern Asian in origin. That said, I believe the original Jews and Arabs were mostly or entirely J1. Furthermore, haplogroup E seems to be one of the most ancient, if not the most in Levant. As for Maleficent's father, I believe his line couldn't be more Levantine in any way, shape or form. He is not of Arab extraction, he is a native to that land. Even though there might be a tad of Arab blood running through his veins, I believe it's close to zero, as Palestinian Christians weren't Arabised to a great extent, like Levantine Muslims were. I believe Palestinian Christians, along with some Syrian and most Lebanese Christians are the closest population alive today to ancient, native Levantines.I pretty much concur with all of this.
My family photographer, a Lebanese Maronite, for example, looks 0% Arabised. He actually looks quite light, and with features such he'd pass in some parts of Southern Europe. Most Levantine Christians I know could pass in some parts of Europe, whereas most Levantine Muslims I've seen cannot. This photographer of mine once took a 23andme test, after talking to some friends, and he told me about his results. His Y DNA haplogroup is E-M84-B, that's why I mentioned him. To me he looks like what I'd expect an ancient Levantine to look. I'm enclosing his picture, which I'll soon delete.It's nice to hear of someone with similar background with the same exact haplogroup. I haven't noticed anyone similar in the Haplozone E Project database yet. My ftdna paternal line matches don't seem to have done deep SNP testing, so I don't know about that either.

[Smeagol]

Haplogroup E originated in the Middle East most likely.

[itzcoatzin]

I woke up this morning to find that I had received four emails from FTDNA stating that about half(I had ordered the Y-DNA67 + mtFullSequence, also mtFullSequence for myself) of my father's y-DNA test results are ready. Of course I'm excited. Now I received my father's 23andme results around late June 2013. According to 23andme, my father's paternal haplogroup is E1b1b1c1a, which should supposedly be E-M84 in shortform. So I login to my father's FTDNA account to find "Your predicted haplogroup is E-L117". Needless to say, I'm stunned. I understand 23andme is not completely accurate with haplogroup groupings, but I still expected to find E-M84 plus whatever deep clade cluster grouping. E-L117 is apparently another way of saying E-M35?! Apparently E-L117 was formerly known as E-M35.1 so presumably he is simply E1b1b1 in longform(ISOGG 2014 E). Under the 'Y-DNA Haplotree' though, this all seems to be under the 'Presumed Positive' color coding and not the 'Tested Positive' color coding. Possibly because this is not the full 67-marker result and I'm still awaiting more?! My father's ethno-religious background is 100% Palestinian-Christian. He was born in Jerusalem but his ancestry 75% from Birzeit and 25% from Ramallah since just his paternal grandmother was from Ramallah and the rest of his entire family from Birzeit. He also has a very large well-documented direct-paternal family tree going back at least 600 years in the exact same village(Birzeit). For reference, Birzeit is only 13 miles north of Jerusalem and even closer to Ramallah, and it's a traditionally and historically very Christian village. E-M84 is the subclade grandson/son of E-M123 and E-M34, all three of which are pretty well established as very Levantine and very Semitic subclades of E1b1b. I felt ecstatic and reassured to know that my paternal line was Ancient-Levantine for sure; but this new haplogroup assignment is not so much that specific, I don't think. So.....I'm sort of at a loss here until I receive the full exact 67-marker result in a few more weeks' time.

1. Do I really have a completely different haplogroup assignment on FTDNA than 23andme?

2. If yes to question 1, how common is this? (I'm fully aware I should have sort expected this considering FTDNA is well-known for being completely accurate with haplogroups, whereas 23andme not so much).

3. Will I know everything I need to know once the full 67-marker result is in?

4. Do I really need to purchase SNPs(for example I'm thinking of E-M123/E-M34/E-M84 for sure)? (I thought it wouldn't be necessary since I ordered such a large marker test).

That's all the major questions I can think of for now.

I consider myself more of an expert(amateur, of course) on this stuff than the average person, but at the same time I am not claiming to be a major expert by any means.

I'm especially looking for input from: E1b1b folks, Middle Eastern-Christian folks, any sort of Levantine folks(Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Druze, etc.), anyone who is an FTDNA or haplogroup expert.

Thank you so much for any help in advance.

BTW: If you recognize the exact same thread in the 23andme forum(I made the thread there first) please don't link it because I've got my real name in my account over there and all that jazz.


I am ev177 Spanish migrated to america about 1500. Ev177 is spanish royal line. Also Albert Einstain was em35.

This link wil give you a list of countries and Surname that have ev177 and em35 in general.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/jewishdnaproject/default.aspx?section=yresults

Wikipedia has a good migration chart and the different mutations locations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M215_(Y-DNA)

This one has good information but some mythology into it read it with an open mind a weed out the good info.
http://hamitic.wordpress.com/famous-hamitics-persons-of-halopgroup-e/

[RL0o*Q]

Happened across this query yesterday, and investigated. Please see http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpE.html . L117 is listed at E1b1b1, a parent clade to E1b1b1c. So, L117 is just a lower resolution classification. It doesn't contradict the E1b1b1c finer resolution classification. There are a number of different designations for the same sub-clades, and this can be very confusing. E-M1b1b1 is the same as E-M35.1. A sub-clade of this is E1b1b1c, which is classified by ISOGG as V6. V6 is contained in E-M35.1. Although not listed on the ISOGG map page, E1b1b1c1* is E-M34. "E-M34 is prevalent among Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews, as well as among Ethiopians. There is some agreement that it is a paternal lineage that emerged from Egypt, and then spread throughout western Asia and Europe from the Levant."--from http://www.geni.com/projects/E-M34-Y-DNA/8402. These maps are mostly valuable for establishing migration populations through history. Genetics is actually only 2% of the human genome. One must consider not just all of the genes (including autosomal) but the entire genome to completely understand the relationship of any one individual to any group. We cannot yet do this. However, it is likely that most Palestinians--including most Christian Palestinians--share distant ancestors with some European Jews, as well as other groups that either currently or at one time inhabited the Mediterranean littoral. However, one might have to go back thousands of years to find those ancestors. Historically, Jews were a highly endogenous population, so retain ancestral traits from the distant past. Therefore, sharing the same genetic pattern with members of such a group may only provide information about the distant past. It is of course ironic that two populations in such intense conflict share common ancestors, but after all, that is true ultimately for all humans.