North Scottish are different race to South Scottish.

[ButlerKing]

The North part of Scotland have 9.9%, 11.3%, 17.5% , 25.2% 29.5% viking ancestry

The South part of Scotland have 2.2% , 2.7%, 3.2%, 3.7%, 4.9% , 5.8% Viking ancestry


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/10/article-2577003-1C26285800000578-560_634x898.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Keep in mind what is today north England have largest number of people with Scottish ancestry.


Anyway one can say North Scotland are different race to South Scotland.

[ButlerKing]

http://www.cranntara.org.uk/vikings/vikingscotland.jpg

[Vasconcelos]

Yep, they are even thinking of dividing the contry into two after getting their independence. It's all over the news.

[SardiniaAtlantis]

A different race? What are the south scottish then, mongoloid? negrito? negroid? australoid?

[ButlerKing]

A different race? What are the south scottish then, mongoloid? negrito? negroid? australoid?

Different race as in different European/Sub-race admixture.:picard2:



South Scottish are only few percent viking/scandinian. North Scotland have 5x the Scandinavian/Viking input.


( I know you're Turkish stop hiding your identity ) Even Turks from Denizli are different to Turks from from Izmir who have different proportion of Mongoloid admixture and other admixtures. For example even in Turkey different province and cities have different genetic and history. Western Turkey are basically Greeks with smaller mongoloid admixture, other parts of Turkey have less west Asian and Mongoloid admixture but other have much more.


http://i57.tinypic.com/25im6uu.jpg



Turkey in the past

http://crusadinghistory.wikispaces.com/file/view/Byzantine_Empire_1000-1100.jpg/166501839/Byzantine_Empire_1000-1100.jpg

[ButlerKing]

The fact is every province and city in EVERY COUNTRY have different DNA to eachother.

Southern Italy had different culture to north Italy, they still speak their dialects and sub-dialects but can be considered different languages. In West Asian proportions.

North Italians have 5-10%

Central Italians have 15-20%

South Italians have 20-30%

Silician, greeks of cyprus have 2x to 3x than other Italians and greeks.

[ButlerKing]

Why North Scotland and South Scotland are different is the same reason why North Italy and South Italy are different, and why West Turkey and East Turkey are different.

What is Italy today are basically many different kingdoms in the past with different Italic languages. South Italian have 3x North African, West Asian, Southwest Asian admixture where as North Italian had germanic influence.


http://www.fotw.us/misc/it-.gif

[Elsa]

I know you're Turkish stop hiding your identity

Ha!

[McCauley]

There is no north/south divide in Scotland, it's a lot more complicated than that. Most of the people with "Viking" ancestry live on the islands, or came from the islands.

[ButlerKing]

There is no north/south divide in Scotland, it's a lot more complicated than that. Most of the people with "Viking" ancestry live on the islands, or came from the islands.

Yes there is.

North Scotland are like a mixture of South Scottish (purest Scott ) with 1/10, 1/5 , 1/4, 1/3 Scandinavian ancestry as proven from DNA study.

[McCauley]

Yes there is.

North Scotland are like a mixture of South Scottish (purest Scott ) with 1/10, 1/5 , 1/4, 1/3 Scandinavian ancestry as proven from DNA study.

There is no such thing as "South Scottish", you shit for brains Indian cunt. Stop talking about people that you don't know anything about.

[ButlerKing]

There is no such thing as "South Scottish", you shit for brains Indian cunt. Stop talking about people that you don't know anything about.

Of course there is no such thing as " South Scottish ". I mean't the genetic results shows them to be somewhat different. North Scottish are mixed with Vikings heavily

You're a stupid and a fool. I know what genetics and history says about Scotland. It's not something like amateurs like you should deny and challenge against it.

North Scotland was ruled and settled by Vikings for 500 years so it makes sense they are partially different today.

http://www.cranntara.org.uk/vikings/vikingscotland.jpg
http://i58.tinypic.com/cneb.jpg

[McCauley]

Of course there is no such thing as " South Scottish ". I mean't the genetic results shows them to be somewhat different. North Scottish are mixed with Vikings heavily

You're a fool I know what genetics and history and scotland says. It's not something like amateurs like you should deny.

North Scotland was ruled and settled by Vikings for 500 years



You don't know squat shit. It wasn't "ruled" by Vikings for 500 years, there were a few failed Norwegian invasions, mainly by a guy named Haakonson, and their influence was mostly limited to the Western Isles. Usually they picked up Gaelic and adopted a clan name, took a Scottish wife and married their daughters to Scottish men. They didnt stay Norwegian for very long.

This "South Scottish" DNA that you're talking about is probably Pictish, they were probably Brythonic and more closely related to the Britons in the south and the Welsh. There was a Kingdon called Ystrad Clut around the Clyde and they were very similar to the Britons in the south. The "Northern Scottish" DNA (which is really western, notice on your map how its centered on the west part) is more Gaelic, because that's where the Irish made their incursions.

[Äijä]

You don't know squat shit. It wasn't "ruled" by Vikings for 500 years, there were a few failed Norwegian invasions, mainly by a guy named Haakonson, and their influence was mostly limited to the Western Isles. Usually they picked up Gaelic and adopted a clan name, took a Scottish wife and married their daughters to Scottish men. They didnt stay Norwegian for very long.

This "South Scottish" DNA that you're talking about is probably Pictish, they were probably Brythonic and more closely related to the Britons in the south and the Welsh. There was a Kingdon called Ystrad Clut around the Clyde and they were very similar to the Britons in the south. The "Northern Scottish" DNA (which is really western, notice on your map how its centered on the west part) is more Gaelic, because that's where the Irish made their incursions.

Clans known or suspected originating from them?

[ButlerKing]

You don't know squat shit. It wasn't "ruled" by Vikings for 500 years, there were a few failed Norwegian invasions, mainly by a guy named Haakonson, and their influence was mostly limited to the Western Isles. Usually they picked up Gaelic and adopted a clan name, took a Scottish wife and married their daughters to Scottish men. They didnt stay Norwegian for very long.

This "South Scottish" DNA that you're talking about is probably Pictish, they were probably Brythonic and more closely related to the Britons in the south and the Welsh. There was a Kingdon called Ystrad Clut around the Clyde and they were very similar to the Britons in the south. The "Northern Scottish" DNA (which is really western, notice on your map how its centered on the west part) is more Gaelic, because that's where the Irish made their incursions.

Are you a butt hurt Scott?


Scandinavian Scotland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Scotland

" Scandinavian Scotland refers to the period from the 8th to the 15th centuries during which Vikings and Norse settlers and their descendents colonised parts of what is now modern Scotland. "


Intermarriages

" By the mid 10th century Amlaíb Cuarán controlled The Rhinns[114] and the region gets the modern name of Galloway from the mixture of Viking and Gaelic Irish settlement that produced the Gall-Gaidel.[115] "

" In Dumfries and Galloway the place name evidence is complex and of mixed Gaelic, Norse and Danish influence, the last most likely stemming from contact with the extensive Danish holdings in northern England.[117] One feature of the area is the number of names with a "kirk" prefix followed by a saint's name such as Kirkoswald. Interpretation of this is not certain but it is also indicative of a mixed Gaelic/Norse population.[118]"

[McCauley]

Clans known or suspected originating from them?

I think it's mostly suspected, not really known for certain. All of the Hebrides and Western Isles were once part of this "Island Kindgom" ruled by the Norwegians/Gaels. The kings styled themselves "Lords of the Isles".

The most famous of these guys was probably Somerled the Viking, he was half-Gael half-Norwegian. His name means "summer raider" I think. He raided the Western Scottish coasts and basically formed his own miniature empire, a bunch of inlet coasts and tens of hundreds of islands.

The part of my family that's Scottish, their name comes from MacAuley I assume, and they may have been one of those "Norse-Gael" clans.

[McCauley]

Are you a butt hurt Scott?


Scandinavian Scotland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Scotland

" Scandinavian Scotland refers to the period from the 8th to the 15th centuries during which Vikings and Norse settlers and their descendents colonised parts of what is now modern Scotland. "


Intermarriages

" By the mid 10th century Amlaíb Cuarán controlled The Rhinns[114] and the region gets the modern name of Galloway from the mixture of Viking and Gaelic Irish settlement that produced the Gall-Gaidel.[115] "

" In Dumfries and Galloway the place name evidence is complex and of mixed Gaelic, Norse and Danish influence, the last most likely stemming from contact with the extensive Danish holdings in northern England.[117] One feature of the area is the number of names with a "kirk" prefix followed by a saint's name such as Kirkoswald. Interpretation of this is not certain but it is also indicative of a mixed Gaelic/Norse population.[118]"

Do you know where Dunfries is idiot? It's in southern Scotland. So much for you "pure southern Scottish" bullshit. Maybe you should actually read what you quote.

[ButlerKing]

Do you know where Dunfries is idiot? It's in southern Scotland. So much for you "pure southern Scottish" bullshit". Maybe you actually read what you quote.

So? it's prove that even in southern scotland have intermarriages let alone north Scotland who were controlled by vikings for 500 years.

[McCauley]

So? it's prove that even in southern scotland have intermarriages let alone north Scotland who were controlled by vikings for 500 years.

They weren't vikings anymore. Go back and carefully read my posts in this thread.

[Fear Fiain]

The North part of Scotland have 9.9%, 11.3%, 17.5% , 25.2% 29.5% viking ancestry

The South part of Scotland have 2.2% , 2.7%, 3.2%, 3.7%, 4.9% , 5.8% Viking ancestry


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/10/article-2577003-1C26285800000578-560_634x898.jpg

lel.
ta na hinse an iar tir bhaicaoing ...
you realize that your "viking homeland" in scotland, the spot with the most "viking" dna, is one of the last places where gaelic is a first language? the western isles and shit ...

[McCauley]

lel.
ta na hinse an iar tir bhaicaoing ...
you realize that your "viking homeland" in scotland, the spot with the most "viking" dna, is one of the last places where gaelic is a first language? the western isles and shit ...

He doesn't understand the whole "Norse-Gael" thing, that it was a hybrid culture and they were as much Scottish as anyone. He is just a retarded Indian.

[Smaug]

Ridiculous. Just because highlanders have 7% more Norse blood they are a different ethnic group? Scots are Scots, and must keep united.

[Äijä]

He doesn't understand the whole "Norse-Gael" thing, that it was a hybrid culture and they were as much Scottish as anyone. He is just a retarded Indian.

He also dont get Finns and Estonians are similar absorbing most likely Goths.

[ButlerKing]

Ridiculous. Just because highlanders have 7% more Norse blood they are a different ethnic group? Scots are Scots, and must keep united.

They have 7.7% to 23.5% more Norse blood than the South.

I agree ethnic groups must keep united. I bet 99.99% of Scots don't know about it anyway.

[ButlerKing]

He also dont get Finns and Estonians are similar absorbing most likely Goths.

Fins have 6 - 12% Mongoloid blood where as Estonians have 2 - 5 % Mongoloid blood.

Finns are mixture of Germanic people haplogroup I1a with Uralic with N1c

Estonians are mixture of Slavic people with R1a, R1b with Germanic I1a and Uralic N1c

[Äijä]

Fins have 6 - 12% Mongoloid blood where as Estonians have 2 - 5 % Mongoloid blood.


You should know that now scientists are presenting papers with the same conclusion that I told you before, that the paleolithic aboriginal population of Fennocandia and NW Russia was possibly largely Siberian.

We know they where not Finnic at that time so Finns got their admix by moving North from Estonia.





Finns are mixture of Germanic people haplogroup I1a with Uralic with N1c

Estonians are mixture of Slavic people with R1a, R1b with Germanic I1a and Uralic N1c

And?

Estonia has gotten more admix from Baltic and Russia, Finland more from Scandinavia and the aboriginals, look at the map and open a history book.


Finns, Estonians and their tribes are all Baltic Finns, just like all Scots and their clans are Scottish people.

It is not comparable to Jamaicans speaking English, that is a different race.

[Gomorra]

NORTHERN EUROPEAN
48%
MEDITERRANEAN
29%
SOUTHWEST ASIAN
18%
NORTHEAST ASIAN
4%

map
48%
NORTHERN EUROPEAN
This component of your ancestry is found at highest frequency in northern European populations—people from the UK, Denmark, Finland, Russia and Germany in our reference populations. While not limited to these groups, it is found at lower frequencies throughout the rest of Europe. This component is likely the signal of the earliest hunter-gatherer inhabitants of Europe, who were the last to make the transition to agriculture as it moved in from the Middle East during the Neolithic period around 8,000 years ago.

Note: In some cases regional percentages may not total 100%.

My fathers Geno 2.0 results. Where the heck this 6-12% mongoloid is? Raceless motherfucker.

[Neon Knight]

Only those in Orkney have a high amount of Scandi DNA and they are a very small population.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Orkney_Islands_in_Scotland.svg/250px-Orkney_Islands_in_Scotland.svg.png

[Gomorra]

My origin says that i am 100% European: 76% Finland and Northern Siberia, 13% Western and Central Europe and 11% Eastern Europe. Of course i understand that i carried some mongoloid genes because N1c1 root comes from east. It doesn´t matter to me but 6-12% is way too much.

As a side point my ex-wife(Russian roots from Ukraine and Siperia) is 97% European. Mongoloid wins again ;)

[Gomorra]

Off topic sorry but that buttface irritates me;)

[Äijä]

My origin says that i am 100% European: 76% Finland and Northern Siberia, 13% Western and Central Europe and 11% Eastern Europe. Of course i understand that i carried some mongoloid genes because N1c1 root comes from east. It doesn´t matter to me but 6-12% is way too much.

As a side point my ex-wife(Russian roots from Ukraine and Siperia) is 97% European. Mongoloid wins again ;)

You area a Tavastian, the Siberian is very low or non existing in most West Finns, even in many East Finns.
Most of it clearly comes from Sami admix or possible Bjarmians or who ever dwelled in these parts before.
Naturally we have the ANE part strong as anyone being majority WHITE EUROPEAN would have.

[Äijä]

Off topic sorry but that buttface irritates me;)

Yes but the issue is the same with the Scots having different admixes regionally.

[ButlerKing]

NORTHERN EUROPEAN
48%
MEDITERRANEAN
29%
SOUTHWEST ASIAN
18%
NORTHEAST ASIAN
4%

map
48%
NORTHERN EUROPEAN
This component of your ancestry is found at highest frequency in northern European populations—people from the UK, Denmark, Finland, Russia and Germany in our reference populations. While not limited to these groups, it is found at lower frequencies throughout the rest of Europe. This component is likely the signal of the earliest hunter-gatherer inhabitants of Europe, who were the last to make the transition to agriculture as it moved in from the Middle East during the Neolithic period around 8,000 years ago.

Note: In some cases regional percentages may not total 100%.

My fathers Geno 2.0 results. Where the heck this 6-12% mongoloid is? Raceless motherfucker.

Finns on average 9.3% Siberian/Mongoloid DNA there was also Finns with 12 -15% Siberian/Mongoloid admixture although it was only a few samples.


http://s22.postimg.org/5f5lqifo1/admix.png


The average North European is 2% Northeast Asian
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4Uon3z-4xaI/UM_zkNvtR-I/AAAAAAAADCY/4nSn-vYZLFo/s400/WhoAmIpercents.tiff

The average Finns is 7% Northeast Asian
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qOVZjcVfQHU/UM_08vMw5wI/AAAAAAAADC4/ECbFEisKKY8/s400/Finnishref.tiff




Your father is most likely a western Finn who the population have 50 - 55% haplogroup I , they are no reprenstative of central and eastern finns with more Mongoloid admixture


http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-admixture.gif

[ButlerKing]

Yes but the issue is the same with the Scots having different admixes regionally.

Finns Mongoloid admixture is 5.5% to 11% in this genetic study, the average is 8.5%


http://oi60.tinypic.com/2agnhtu.jpg

[Äijä]

Western Finland has close to 3 million people from a population of 5 million in the country, at least half of those have majority Western Finnish ancestry.

I recommend you calculate yourself the average from online sources as there is not a study that represents the real population in existence, my guess is you come up with 4-6%

And I am more and more convinced the Siberian in Finland contains something very ancient, only part is from the aboriginals, many of those high on Siberian are like Aryan poster boys.

[ButlerKing]

Yes but the issue is the same with the Scots having different admixes regionally.

They have 93% haplogroup N and 7% C3.

They are 100% Mongoloid component, and Finns have 6 - 12% of it.

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/NganasansY_DNA.gif
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNYwfThz81I/AAAAAAAAC10/Jaq1P436tSQ/s1600/1ips07-Nganasan.jpg

[Gomorra]

Sample size is rather small(15) so it not tell the truth. Eastern Finns are more enthusiastic to do the test. This might distort your data. They are over represented in your results. Also analysis is quite old.

Of course Finns have some eastern genes but i don´t start to say that i have the lowest proportion of eastern genes or mongoloid whatever.

Why my origins claim that i am 100 European?

And correction to my ex-wife results and roots. 97% European, 3% Central/South Asian. Father from Ukraine moved to Siberia, Mother from Pskov.

[Äijä]

They have 93% haplogroup N and 7% C3.

They are 100% Mongoloid component, and Finns have 6 - 12% of it.



The Finnish N1c has very little to do with the rise of Siberian, they are not all the same.

[Breedingvariety]

Haplogroups are meaningless.

[Äijä]

Haplogroups are meaningless.

No they are not but you have to know their history to make educated guesses, we know our people so we have a better idea about them than ButlerMaharaja.

[Harkonnen]

Oh look the 3 dumbos (Ukko, Gomorra & Butty) are having a discussion. How lovely.

[Äijä]

Oh look the 3 dumbos (Ukko, Gomorra & Butty) are having a discussion. How lovely.

Better if you would tell us how it really is.:thumb001:

[ButlerKing]

Western Finland has close to 3 million people from a population of 5 million in the country, at least half of those have majority Western Finnish ancestry.

I recommend you calculate yourself the average from online sources as there is not a study that represents the real population in existence, my guess is you come up with 4-6%

And I am more and more convinced the Siberian in Finland contains something very ancient, only part is from the aboriginals, many of those high on Siberian are like Aryan poster boys.

If west finland are representative why put the 65% haplogroup N ( haplogroup I only 29%)?


West Finland are 40-50% haplogroup I with one province even reaching 56%. where as Haplogroup N drops to only 35 - 50%.


http://oi58.tinypic.com/30jk70y.jpg

[ButlerKing]

The Finnish N1c has very little to do with the rise of Siberian, they are not all the same.

Finnish haplogroup N1c = N2 originated from the Mongoloid.


The N1c in Finland is European cluster, is more related with western Uralics who are part Mongoloid.


N1c in Finland is East Eurasian paternal DNA but it didn't originated from Mongoloid men mating with caucasian women ( well it kind of did with western uralics ).

It was western uralic males with a mutated N1c Y-DNA and mixed with germanic and thus created finns

[Äijä]

If west finland are representative why put the 65% haplogroup N ( haplogroup I only 29%)?


West Finland are 40-50% haplogroup I with one province even reaching 56%. where as Haplogroup N drops to only 35 - 50%.


http://oi58.tinypic.com/30jk70y.jpg

Depends how you define West Finland, your numbers are from 2 provinces, maybe someone will draw a map for you or a wilder idea, read Finnish history.

[Äijä]

Finnish haplogroup N1c = N2 originated from the Mongoloid.


The N1c in Finland is European cluster, is more related with western Uralics who are part Mongoloid.


N1c in Finland is East Eurasian but it didn't originated from Mongoloid men mating with caucasian women ( well it kind of did with western uralics ).

Later western uralic N1c mutated and mixed with germanic and thus created finns

N1c in Europe is not more East Eurasian than R1a.

[ButlerKing]

N1c in Europe is not more East Eurasian than R1a.

Right than one can say Kyrgyz R1a is not more Mongoloid than C3 since R1a1 in Kyrgyz are distinct from other caucasian population with their own R1a1-93z

Your male ancestors were similar to western Uralic who have the highest European cluster N1c.

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff277/aiwn/uralics.jpg

[Äijä]

Right than one can say Kyrgyz R1a is not more Mongoloid than C3 since R1a1 in Kyrgyz are distinct from other caucasian population with their own R1a1-93z

Your male ancestors were similar western Uralic have the highest European cluster N1c.



You still dont even know the different N1c exist, you must be stupid, one thing common for N1c is that they are rulers and warriors, possibly the frost giants, check that you brown subhuman.

[ButlerKing]

You still dont even know the different N1c exist, you must be stupid, one thing common for N1c is that they are rulers and warriors, possibly the frost giants, check that you brown subhuman.

No you are stupid.


1. I know all Uralic people have mongoloid blood and who have Mongoloid blood have N1c.

2. The 6000 BC finno-ugric shown to have 100% Mongoloid features.

3. In Western Siberia it used to belong to pure Caucasian Dnieper culture but anthropology and archeology found there was a eastern mongoloid invasion to those areas.


4. In 2000 BC the western Siberia became part Mongoloid/Caucasian and carried high N1c, they were result of eastern uralic males mixing with Dnieper caucasian population.


5. Later western Uralic males with their own N1c cluster migrated to Finland and mixed with Germanic tribes.


6. Finns Y-DNA is only partially Uralic with the other Y-DNA and mtDNA is related with Norwegians, Swedish.

[LightHouse89]

A different race? What are the south scottish then, mongoloid? negrito? negroid? australoid?

by now probably......the gift of multiculturalism.

[Gomorra]

Your sources please? Butter. Where your data from? Especially the table where was 15 finnish samples.

[Gomorra]

I know all Uralic people have mongoloid blood all have who have Mongolod blood have N1c.

This is enght, Faggot.

[Äijä]

No you are stupid.


1. I know all Uralic people have mongoloid blood and who have Mongoloid blood have N1c.

2. The 6000 BC finno-ugric shown to have 100% Mongoloid features.

3. In Western Siberia it used to belong to pure Caucasian Dnieper culture but anthropology and archeology found there was a eastern mongoloid invasion to those areas.


4. In 2000 BC the western Siberia became part Mongoloid/Caucasian and carried high N1c, they were result of eastern uralic males mixing with Dnieper caucasian population.


5. Later western Uralic males with their own N1c cluster migrated to Finland and mixed with Germanic tribes.


6. Finns Y-DNA is only partially Uralic with the other Y-DNA and mtDNA is related with Norwegians, Swedish.

There are no 6000BC Finno-Ugrics or any mongoloid invasion you can link with Finnic other than the one that is recorded in history books, pure BS.

[ButlerKing]

Your sources please? Butter. Where your data from? Especially the table where was 15 finnish samples.

Here

autosomal DNA from Lazaridis et al. 2013


http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Admixtures-Lazaridis.png

[Äijä]

I am going to drink more sahti, keep beating ButlerBrown, he did not deny he was one anymore.

[Gomorra]

Stupid to hang on haplogroups. That is said.

[ButlerKing]

There are no 6000BC Finno-Ugrics or any mongoloid invasion you can link with Finnic other than the one that is recorded in history books, pure BS.

Haplogroup N have to be Mongoloid even if Finno-Ugric language is isn't but than again many experts tend to agree Finno-Ugric is closer to Turkic than to Indo-European who you Finns have most genetic similarity with ( such as Swedes, Danish, Norwegians )

I posted this so many times......



The closest analogy to the skull early Finno-Ugric peoples are found in the burial Fofanova in the Baikal region (6th millennium BC)

http://i50.tinypic.com/2w40mm9.jpg

( Russian translation to English)


FACE OF ANTHROPOLOGY


There has been an act of invasion of the Finno-Ugric peoples of Eastern origin in the territory inhabited by Caucasians. Dnieper-Donets culture has developed Caucasians, after which it mingled with the Finno-Ugric tribes. This is confirmed by the data from the repository and Yasinovatka, which (like the Vasiljevka II) is the most ancient among the other cemeteries of the Dnieper-Donets culture. Moreover, it contains the burial of non-simultaneity and divide the period of 500 years (between A and B).


Since culture comb-ceramic spread anthropological type, bearing the features of a "relaxed Mongoloid." In the anthropological literature, it is named laponoidnogo. From the point of view of anthropologists, "there is every reason to believe that the origin of anthropological traits media cultures comb-ceramics associated with the eastern parts of Russia." In particular, male and female skulls from graves 19 and 20 (Sahtysh II), belonging to the comb-culture and dating con. 4th - early. 3rd millennium BC. e. have pronounced Mongoloid appearance - "brain structure of the skull, face and horizontal profile morphology of the nose in two sahtyshskih skulls undoubtedly confirm their membership of the Mongoloid race.

[Gomorra]

Butler:Are you sure that protouralic people have mongoloid genes. Show me the facts?

[ButlerKing]

Stupid to hang on haplogroups. That is said.

Is not haplogroups study is a autosomal DNA study. And that study shows Ngannasan are 100% Mongoloid with 93% N where as you Finns have 5.5 - 12% Mongoloid with 35 - 65% N.

You finns are about as Mongoloid as one white guy claiming they have a Asian great grandfather to great great grandfather. Generation of mixing dilute let alone the ones who spread N to Finland would have been only half Mongoloid by the time they came to Finland.


1 Generation 50%
2 Generation 25%
3 Generation 12.5%
4 Generation 6.25%
5 Generation 3.15%
6 Generation 1.12%

[Harkonnen]

N1c in Europe is not more East Eurasian than R1a.

As of now R looks to be actually more eastern haplo than N, in deep origin at least. There have been made a lot of new discoveries lately, like the the brother haplo of NO, the X, which looks to be exclusive to India. Out of the K descendants there could be made a halfarsed case for NO(+X) as a some sort of 'westeurasian' bunch, but there is really no such case for P (R,Q). Anyway NO origin too is in the east most definitely so, but there is perhaps a slight but there. R1 itself is very likely older in west eurasia than N. But there too some new stuff like the discovery of P189.2, the oldest branch of N, which so far has been found exclusively in Europe. This also means that N itself could be a very old haplo, in the 40k range, when previously it was thought to be much young, in the +10k range.

Anyway this whole simple west/east eurasia dichotomy looks to be a rather young node, so it really doesn't mean shit in the big picture.

[ButlerKing]

Butler:Are you sure that protouralic people have mongoloid genes. Show me the facts?

I already showed you. Russian anthropology who studied skulls in Siberia showed Western Siberian were originally caucasian ( and had not evidence of Uralic language ) after a Mongoloid invasion to western Siberia the people began speaking Uralic and only look part Caucasian.


Eastern Eurasian (Mongoloid Y-DNA) is 60% in Finland


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n10/images/ejhg2008101f1.jpg

[Gomorra]

Fact is no one can not claim that protouralics was mongoloid day one. Nobody knows. And as Valtaves said there is N1c1 haplo which is totally European. Go to sleep and have a juicy dreams for mongoloids.

[ButlerKing]

As of now R looks to be actually more eastern haplo than N, in deep origin at least. There have been made a lot of new discoveries lately, like the the brother haplo of NO, the X, which looks to be exclusive to India. Out of the K descendants there could be made a halfarsed case for NO(+X) as a some sort of 'westeurasian' bunch, but there is really no such case for P (R,Q). Anyway NO origin too is in the east most definitely so, but there is perhaps a slight but there. R1 itself is very likely older in west eurasia than N. But there too some new stuff like the discovery of P189.2, the oldest branch of N, which so far has been found exclusively in Europe. This also means that N itself could be a very old haplo, in the 40k range, when previously it was thought to be much young, in the +10k range.

Anyway this whole simple west/east eurasia dichotomy looks to be a rather young node, so it really doesn't mean shit in the big picture.

Being discovered in Europe does not mean haplogroup N was European since R1a was also discovered in India as long as European. Haplogroup N is generally accepted as being found in Siberia and arrived from Siberia to Europe. 40,000 years ago humans didn't even look like they belong to any race. Blue eyes didn't even exist until 10,000 years ago other eyes and hair color didn't exist either. Racial features were distorted and disproportioned. Besides caucasian inhabitants didn't even exist in parts of north europe that time.

No Haplogroups belong to any race 40,000 years ago. There was no such thing as european, mongoloid, negroid genetic back than.

The Europeans didn't even look European

http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/european-head_169813s.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Fact is no one can not claim that protouralics was mongoloid day one. Nobody knows. And as Valtaves said there is N1c1 haplo which is totally European. Go to sleep and have a juicy dreams for mongoloids.

Every European with N1c1 always have Mongoloid admixture.

Where as some Mongoloid with over 90% N1c don't even have any caucasian admixture like the Nganassans and some Yakut sub-groups who both have 90-100% N but still show 0% Caucasian admiture.


Where as North Europeans having only 7.5% to 65% shows more foreign admixture ( Mongoloid ) despite having much lower frequencies of N.

[Harkonnen]

Fact is no one can not claim that protouralics was mongoloid day one. Nobody knows. And as Valtaves said there is N1c1 haplo which is totally European. Go to sleep and have a juicy dreams for mongoloids.

No N1c1 wasn't even born yet when 189.2 roamed the cold desolate places. Like I said it is the oldest branch of N, so far found only in the Balkans and I think Polad and Britain somewhere. Look at the top of the tree

http://s017.radikal.ru/i435/1311/25/5200f9d5a451.jpg

[Gomorra]

So it is possible that N1c1 ancestors lived in Europe. Interesting.

[ButlerKing]

Fact is no one can not claim that protouralics was mongoloid day one. Nobody knows. And as Valtaves said there is N1c1 haplo which is totally European. Go to sleep and have a juicy dreams for mongoloids.


Proto-Uralics looked more like Veddoids. But than ancient Humans and Europeans had much more heavy homosapien traits. Traits so ancient that it's almost non-existant in modern humans. They had disproportioned nose bridge and head size and many had flat wide noses or thicker lips.

Like I said ancient Europeans didn't even look like modern European, people thinking that just because a haplogroup originated from one location in middle east or Europe and because of that they think they resemble those ancient humans, totally wrong.


Haplogroup N in North Europe and East Europe is Mongoloid. That is why North European and Russian have 2%+ to 10%+ Mongoloid DNA ( Average Russians with high N even have 14% Mongoloid admixture) and Western Uralics have from 9 - 38% Mongoloid

Proto-Uralics

The pre or proto-Uralic peoples of Sungir were Veddoids:

http://strana.ru/media/images/uploaded/gallery_promo20955136.jpg


And this population mixed with the Europids later and the mixed Europo-Veddoid forms survive until the Neolithic, for example a part of the Indo-Iranian (proto-Aryan) population of the Samara culture:

"Среди самарских неолитических черепов один (Чекалино VI6) выделяется нестандартностью черт. Этот череп демонстрирует в комплексе характерные экваториальные особенности. В настоящее время наличие подобных черт на черепах северной зоны Евразии для эпох палео-неолита (Сунгирь, Фатьма-Коба, Маркина Гора, Гавриловка, Черная Гора) уже не вызывает удивления. Однако по-прежнему их происхождение не совсем ясно. Можно развивать идею Г.Ф. Дебеца (1936) об остаточных явлениях особой евро-африканской стадии расогенеза, предполагая, что в эпоху камня зона распространения экваториальных краниологических признаков была шире, чем в последующее время.

Неолитические черепа несколько различаются по измерительным признакам. Особенно выделяется среди них женский череп Чекалино IV6 - очень высоким сводом (от порионов), очень большой шириной и столь же малой высотой лицевого отдела. Также обращает внимание очень широкое грушевидное отверстие, сильный альвеолярный прогнатизм и некоторые другие специфические признаки, которые в сумме составляют экваториальный морфокомплскс. В настоящее время наличие подобных черт на черепах северной зоны Европы для эпох палео - неолита уже не считается нонсенсом в науке. Их происхождение не совсем понятно. Можно развивать идею Г.Ф. Дебеца (1936) о них, как об остаточном явлении особой евро-африканской стадии развития или говорить о проникновении (инфильтрации?) отдельных групп/субъектов/черт экваториального происхождения"
source: Хохлов Александр Александрович: Палеоантропология пограничья Лесостепи и степи Волго-Уралья в эпохи неолита-бронзы - Москва - 1998 (http://www.referun.com/n/paleoantropologiya-pogranichya-lesostepi-i-stepi-volgo-uralya-v-epohi-neolita-bronzy)

The Caucasoids in this region were Cromagnoids, mostly Protoeuropids (in the steppe) and Baltids (in the northern woodlands). And the Mongoloids came later and they brought the N haplogroup and they mixed with the Baltids --> Uralid race.

Nobody know which group carried the proto-Uralic language. Maybe the Veddoids from south, maybe the Mongoloids from Central Asia, or maybe the Caucasoids. This factor is unknown. But these three groups were the participiant of the Uralic ethnogenesis.

Comb ceramics Uralids:
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/karavaicha1combceramic2jz.jpg




But this is evident, if you looked the Sungir remains:
http://www.nature.com/polopoly_fs/7.4177.1335458642!/image/sungir.jpg

This is the fact about the Eastern European mesolithic in the Volga valley. A strong Veddoid presence and not only in here, but in Central Asia to. There were a Veddoid Vandering from the deep South to the Volga valley in holocene. But this is a well know fact in the Eurasian paleoanthropology. This was the basis of the Uralo-Dravidian-theory for example. The three basic theory about the origin of the proto-Uralic peoples:
http://s27.postimg.org/6i1u94g83/005132.jpg
1. Indo-Uralic theory: the Uralic hunters' ancestors follow the polar animals after the last glacial period. The Indo-Uralics were the common ancestors of the Indoeuropeans and Uralics.
2. Uralo-Dravidian theory: the mesolithic Veddoid elements carried the proto-Uralic language and they assimilated the locals.
3. Comb-ware or the Neolithization theory: the Mongoloid carriers of the Central Asian origin neolitization of North-Eastern Europe carried the proto-Uralic language (and the haplogroup N) and they assimilated the locals.

[ButlerKing]

No N1c1 wasn't even born yet when 189.2 roamed the cold desolate places. Like I said it is the oldest branch of N, so far found only in the Balkans and I think Polad and Britain somewhere. Look at the top of the tree

http://s017.radikal.ru/i435/1311/25/5200f9d5a451.jpg

I can't find any source that claims the oldest branch of N was found in Balkans?

Do you have any genetic link or source?

[ButlerKing]

So it is possible that N1c1 ancestors lived in Europe. Interesting.

40,000 years ago people the world was inhabited by strange looking people with heavy homosapien traits.

N1c1 in North Europe dated back from time N from Siberia entered to Europe ( It doesn't even matter if the oldest branch is found in Europe since race didn't even exist that time )


They had disproportioned head size and look more deformed than the average human.

It amazes me how our ancestors look like these people.


The truth is race doesn't exist. We just all evolved in different climate gradually turning into how we look today.


Ancient inhabitants of Russia

http://i50.tinypic.com/16m6cub.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/29er61j.jpg

[Gomorra]

Do you have any genetic link or source?

It is Volkov´s tree from N North Eurasian YDNA Project. It depicts mutations in haplogroup N. Try google. I go to sleep. See you...

[ButlerKing]

It is Volkov´s tree from N North Eurasian YDNA Project. It depicts mutations in haplogroup N. Try google. I go to sleep. See you...

What the hell? the source comes from https://www.familytreedna.com/public/N%20Russia%20%20DNA%20Project/ who links a source from a Russian forum?

http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,2576.msg86886.html#msg86886

[Äijä]

Is not haplogroups study is a autosomal DNA study. And that study shows Ngannasan are 100% Mongoloid with 93% N where as you Finns have 5.5 - 12% Mongoloid with 35 - 65% N.

You finns are about as Mongoloid as one white guy claiming they have a Asian great grandfather to great great grandfather. Generation of mixing dilute let alone the ones who spread N to Finland would have been only half Mongoloid by the time they came to Finland.


1 Generation 50%
2 Generation 25%
3 Generation 12.5%
4 Generation 6.25%
5 Generation 3.15%
6 Generation 1.12%



There is zero possibility that they where half Mongoloid entering Finland, really.

[ButlerKing]

There is zero possibility that they where half Mongoloid entering Finland, really.

Why zero when you Finns were already proven to have 6 - 12% Mongoloid admixture.

But most likely they properly already looked like a western Uralic who are 30% Mongoloid / 70% Caucasian.


http://mrted57.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/1076153676877.jpeg

[Äijä]

Why zero when you Finns were already proven to have 6 - 12% Mongoloid admixture.

But most likely they properly already looked like a western Uralic who are 30% Mongoloid / 70% Caucasian.


http://mrted57.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/1076153676877.jpeg

Show the skulls.

[Äijä]

I already showed you. Russian anthropology who studied skulls in Siberia showed Western Siberian were originally caucasian ( and had not evidence of Uralic language ) after a Mongoloid invasion to western Siberia the people began speaking Uralic and only look part Caucasian.


Eastern Eurasian (Mongoloid Y-DNA) is 60% in Finland




I want more skulls that can speak.

[Äijä]

Haplogroup N have to be Mongoloid even if Finno-Ugric language is isn't but than again many experts tend to agree Finno-Ugric is closer to Turkic than to Indo-European who you Finns have most genetic similarity with ( such as Swedes, Danish, Norwegians )



Most experts called linguists will laugh at your claim, Uralic and Indo-European developed next to each other and are related if any of them are.

[ButlerKing]

I want more skulls that can speak.


I've shown you before but you woudn't believe me. These are the skulls they studied


" Since culture comb-ceramic spread anthropological type, bearing the features of a "relaxed Mongoloid." In the anthropological literature, it is named laponoidnogo. From the point of view of anthropologists, "there is every reason to believe that the origin of anthropological traits media cultures comb-ceramics associated with the eastern parts of Russia." In particular, male and female skulls from graves 19 and 20 (Sahtysh II), belonging to the comb-culture and dating con. 4th - early. 3rd millennium BC. e. have pronounced Mongoloid appearance - "brain structure of the skull, face and horizontal profile morphology of the nose in two sahtyshskih skulls undoubtedly confirm their membership of the Mongoloid race. "



http://i47.tinypic.com/20zsh2b.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/317cvte.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/zj80oi.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/33ausnn.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Most experts called linguists will laugh at your claim, Uralic and Indo-European developed next to each other and are related if any of them are.

Indo-Uralic theories is generally not accepted. Any connection is because uralic languages borrowed some loanwords, there are also loanwords with Turkic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Uralic_languages

Aside from loanwords Ural-altaic theories are based on similarities in vocabulary as well as in grammatical and phonological features, in particular the similarities in the Uralic and Altaic pronouns and the presence of agglutination in both sets of languages, as well as vowel harmony in some

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural–Altaic_languages

[Äijä]

I've shown you before but you woudn't believe me. These are the skulls they studied


" Since culture comb-ceramic spread anthropological type, bearing the features of a "relaxed Mongoloid." In the anthropological literature, it is named laponoidnogo. From the point of view of anthropologists, "there is every reason to believe that the origin of anthropological traits media cultures comb-ceramics associated with the eastern parts of Russia." In particular, male and female skulls from graves 19 and 20 (Sahtysh II), belonging to the comb-culture and dating con. 4th - early. 3rd millennium BC. e. have pronounced Mongoloid appearance - "brain structure of the skull, face and horizontal profile morphology of the nose in two sahtyshskih skulls undoubtedly confirm their membership of the Mongoloid race. "



What is the location? What is the DNA?

[ButlerKing]

What is the location? What is the DNA?

What is today in West Siberia ( on the northern part )


They found people like these who are hybridized with Mongoloid.


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5738&stc=1&d=1284056763



The Comb-Ceramic culture

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/European-middle-neolithic-en.svg/1042px-European-middle-neolithic-en.svg.png

[Äijä]

Indo-Uralic theories is generally not accepted. Any connection is because uralic languages borrowed some loanwords, there are also loanwords with Turkic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Uralic_languages

Aside from loanwords Ural-altaic theories are based on similarities in vocabulary as well as in grammatical and phonological features, in particular the similarities in the Uralic and Altaic pronouns and the presence of agglutination in both sets of languages, as well as vowel harmony in some

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural–Altaic_languages

You are good at distorting, the Indo-Uralic theories have a lot more prominent support than the Turkic one.

[Äijä]

What is today in West Siberia ( on the northern part )


They found people like these who are hybridized with Mongoloid.


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5738&stc=1&d=1284056763



The Comb-Ceramic culture

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/European-middle-neolithic-en.svg/1042px-European-middle-neolithic-en.svg.png

Your map does not even have most of European Russia and you are talking about Western Siberian arctic coast, you really need a good beating, I would love to give it to you.
You are like the library of pseudoscience.

[ButlerKing]

You are good at distorting, the Indo-Uralic theories have a lot more prominent support than the Turkic one.

Objections

" It has been countered that nothing prevents this common vocabulary from having been borrowed from Proto-Indo-European into Proto-Uralic.

For the old loans, as well as uncontroversial ones from Proto-Baltic and Proto-Germanic, it is more the rule than the exception that only the stem is borrowed, without any case-endings. Proto-Uralic *nimi- has been explained according to sound laws governing substitutions in borrowings (Koivulehto 1999), on the assumption that the original was a zero-grade oblique stem PIE *(H)nmen- as attested in later Balto-Slavic *inmen- and Proto-Celtic *anmen-. Proto-Uralic *weti- could be a loan from the PIE oblique e-grade form for 'water' or from an indirectly attested cognate root noun *wed-. Proto-Uralic *toHį- 'give' and PFU *wetä- 'lead' also make perfect phonologic sense as borrowings.

The number systems of Indo-European and Uralic show no commonalities. Moreover, while the numbers in all Indo-European languages can be traced back to reconstructed Proto-Indo-European numbers, this cannot be done for the Uralic numbers, where only "two" and "five" are common to all of the family (roots for 3-6 are common to all subgroups other than Samoyedic, and slightly less widespread roots are known for 1 and 10). This would appear to show that if Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Uralic are to be related, the connection must lie so far back that the families developed their number systems independently and did not inherit them from their purported common ancestor.

It is also objected that some or all of the common vocabulary items claimed are false cognates – words whose resemblance is merely coincidental, like English bad and Persian bad. "

[ButlerKing]

Your map does not even have most of European Russia and you are talking about Western Siberian arctic coast, you really need a good beating, I would love to give it to you.
You are like the library of pseudoscience.

When I said western Siberia I of coursed mean't European/Russia but not with slavic population but with Uralic. I'm talking about western Siberia with Uralic population.

What is European/Russia? Slavs didn't even exist in western Siberia.

http://metaldetectingworld.com/05_photo_gallery/singles/russia_map_sib.jpg

[ButlerKing]

European Russia? Only the area from Moscow, to St.Peterburg is slavic. The other areas are non-europeans Uralic and Turkic areas and related with east Siberian Turks and Uralics not with slavs. European/Russia was never that huge in the past, most of it are non-european area in the past until they expanded with the Russian/Soviet empire.

Besides Uralic/Turks in european russia are closer to Central Asia and Siberia


http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/images/time/russia/european-russia.jpg

[Majic Eyes Only]

40,000 years ago people the world was inhabited by strange looking people with heavy homosapien traits.

N1c1 in North Europe dated back from time N from Siberia entered to Europe ( It doesn't even matter if the oldest branch is found in Europe since race didn't even exist that time )


They had disproportioned head size and look more deformed than the average human.

It amazes me how our ancestors look like these people.


The truth is race doesn't exist. We just all evolved in different climate gradually turning into how we look today.


Ancient inhabitants of Russia

http://i50.tinypic.com/16m6cub.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/29er61j.jpg

Just thought I'd clear up some of your stupidity; those are Western European Neanderthals, not "ancient Russians." The first skull on the left is La Chapelle aux Saints from France, then Feldhofer 1 from Germany and Spy 2. The Tabun C2 mandible from Israel is also visible. Reconstructions are based on the Le Moustier jouvenile (far left) and La Ferrassie 1, the classical adult Neanderthal. The other two are Tabun C1 and Gibraltar woman. The sculptures were all made by a Russian artist. So far there are no cranial remains from Russia pre-dating 30,000YBP. Race did indeed exist in those times, sub-races, too, in fact. Neanderthals were not deformed and are sympathetic with modern western Europeans. East Asian Mongoloids are deformed.

[Grace O'Malley]

You know what I'm seriously getting sick of these troll threads. Come on Butlerking lift your game. I'd like some genuine discussion and it is getting very lacking on Apricity. I'm interested in fact and not fiction. There are some fantastic posters on this forum but I'm seeing them post less and less. Some posters recently like Albion have left this forum and it is a loss. I don't mind a bit of humour but there comes a point where it does become ridiculous. I've read this forum for a long time before I posted and recently I've noticed a lot of blah posts. Blah is just my description of rubbish posts. There should be a balance otherwise Apricity will lose all their more genuine posters. I'm finding more about my genetic origin and would like some more serious posts. This sort of post just does my head in. I am a fan of MacAulay though (whatever he calls himself these days). I bet we are related somewhere down the track. For a very Irish girl I am coming up with a lot of connections to the Scots.

[Gooding]

There is no north/south divide in Scotland, it's a lot more complicated than that. Most of the people with "Viking" ancestry live on the islands, or came from the islands.

Do the Highlanders that descend from the Celts live on the western area of the mainland or are they found in the North, among the Scots descended from the Norsemen? One of my closest kin has a substantial amount of Irish DNA according to AncestryDNA.com and our branch of the McDonalds has been traced to the area of Glenmoriston, which is why I ask the question.

[finþaų]

This is one of the most retarded threads that I have ever seen on Apricity, and that says a lot.

[Gooding]

You know what I'm seriously getting sick of these troll threads. Come on Butlerking lift your game. I'd like some genuine discussion and it is getting very lacking on Apricity. I'm interested in fact and not fiction. There are some fantastic posters on this forum but I'm seeing them post less and less. Some posters recently like Albion have left this forum and it is a loss. I don't mind a bit of humour but there comes a point where it does become ridiculous. I've read this forum for a long time before I posted and recently I've noticed a lot of blah posts. Blah is just my description of rubbish posts. There should be a balance otherwise Apricity will lose all their more genuine posters. I'm finding more about my genetic origin and would like some more serious posts. This sort of post just does my head in. I am a fan of MacAulay though (whatever he calls himself these days). I bet we are related somewhere down the track. For a very Irish girl I am coming up with a lot of connections to the Scots.

You might be surprised at exactly how far- flung your kindred are, Ms. O' Malley. :) My research, biased and tainted as it undoubtedly is by distance and history, shows some different ethnic groups that made their way into Scotland in different points of history. http://www.everyculture.com/multi/Pa-Sp/Scottish-and-Scotch-Irish-Americans.html Now, how the fuck does Finland and Russia signify anything at all in the various groups that became incorporated into the Scottish people?

[Black Wolf]

Different ''race''? ButlerKing give your head a shake pal.

[LightHouse89]

You know what I'm seriously getting sick of these troll threads. Come on Butlerking lift your game. I'd like some genuine discussion and it is getting very lacking on Apricity. I'm interested in fact and not fiction. There are some fantastic posters on this forum but I'm seeing them post less and less. Some posters recently like Albion have left this forum and it is a loss. I don't mind a bit of humour but there comes a point where it does become ridiculous. I've read this forum for a long time before I posted and recently I've noticed a lot of blah posts. Blah is just my description of rubbish posts. There should be a balance otherwise Apricity will lose all their more genuine posters. I'm finding more about my genetic origin and would like some more serious posts. This sort of post just does my head in. I am a fan of MacAulay though (whatever he calls himself these days). I bet we are related somewhere down the track. For a very Irish girl I am coming up with a lot of connections to the Scots.

Well a lot of Scots settled in Ireland. My ancestors the Cunninghams are from Ayrshire,Scotland. A clan of Brythonic Scotsman who settled in Ireland and were Galloglass men [hired mercenaries from Norse Gaels to Scots working for local Irish lords as household guards]. I also have the surname Wallace and MacIntosh then some border reiver ancestry [Northern Irish ancestry].

Mind you the Irish settled in the highlands in Scotland.

[LightHouse89]

Do the Highlanders that descend from the Celts live on the western area of the mainland or are they found in the North, among the Scots descended from the Norsemen? One of my closest kin has a substantial amount of Irish DNA according to AncestryDNA.com and our branch of the McDonalds has been traced to the area of Glenmoriston, which is why I ask the question.

I would say both. I mean the Vikings that settled in Scotland were mostly from Ireland except in the northern Islands. Norse Gaels were a mixed breed of sea farers who had celtic mothers and norse fathers mostly. They settled in parts of western Scotland and north western England.

A surname like Doyle in Ireland [a relative of mine is a Doyle] is a Viking name actually.

[Gooding]

I would say both. I mean the Vikings that settled in Scotland were mostly from Ireland except in the northern Islands. Norse Gaels were a mixed breed of sea farers who had celtic mothers and norse fathers mostly. They settled in parts of western Scotland and north western England.

A surname like Doyle in Ireland [a relative of mine is a Doyle] is a Viking name actually.

Interesting.. my mother's a McDonald and we descend also from Bairds, Lawsons, Caudills and Robertsons, all of Scottish origins. Lawson might even be a Norse variant of Mac Laren. That is interesting, hearing about the Norse Gaels' settlement patterns.

[LightHouse89]

Interesting.. my mother's a McDonald and we descend also from Bairds, Lawsons, Caudills and Robertsons, all of Scottish origins. Lawson might even be a Norse variant of Mac Laren. That is interesting, hearing about the Norse Gaels' settlement patterns.

Yes. One of my ancestors surnames has always confused me, Cunningham. Sounds English because of the last part of the name 'Ham'. But it is Scottish entirely apparently.

[Gooding]

Yes. One of my ancestors surnames has always confused me, Cunningham. Sounds English because of the last part of the name 'Ham'. But it is Scottish entirely apparently.

Well, some Angles did settle as far North as the Scottish Lowlands and the Borders.. it may be an Anglian name.. http://www.clancunningham.us/,
http://clancunninghamintl.org/ For locational purposes, Clan Cunningham seems to be from Ayrshire originally.