Coexistence of Saami and Norse culture – reflected in and interpreted by Old Norse myths

[Pallantides]

Coexistence of Saami and Norse culture - reflected in and interpreted by Old Norse myths (http://www.arts.usyd.edu.au/departs/medieval/saga/pdf/346-mundal.pdf)

[Anthropos]

Nonsense science, that's what it is.

Sami are not integrated with Swedes and there is hardly any 'coexistence' either, much rather something like a feud. I doubt that they are integrated with Norwegians even if Norway, unlike Sweden, did have an agenda to have them integrated since rather long, if I'm not mistaken. It is well known that Samis have at times been pushed around by Swedes, Norwegians and Finns, and this is documented (although indirectly) starting in the 16th century.

In other words, what almost anyone can understand, this 'scientific' piece 'interprets' Norse Sagas 'in the light of' modern wishes to model the past to make it seem that Samis played an active part in Scandinavian ethnogeneses, but the idea is only too transparent.

[Pallantides]

Nonsense science

I believe the opinions of Norwegian scholars and professors have more weight than that of some random Swede, but your opinion is noted. :thumb001:

[The Ripper]

Nonsense science, that's what it is.

Sami are not integrated with Swedes and there is hardly any 'coexistence' either, much rather something like a feud. I doubt that they are integrated with Norwegians even if Norway, unlike Sweden, did have an agenda to have them integrated since rather long, if I'm not mistaken. It is well known that Samis have at times been pushed around by Swedes, Norwegians and Finns, and this is documented (although indirectly) starting in the 16th century.

While I kind of agree what you say, I think saying that there never was co-existence (of course it depends entirely how you define this) is rather taking it to the other extreme. While not playing a part in Scandinavian ethnogenesis, they have been here much longer than the Scandinavians and inhabited the same region for a long time. This long relationship is not simply one of "feuding" or "peaceful integrtion".

[Pallantides]

Norway has the largest Sami population, 1000 years ago there were Saami living as far south as Oppland in Valdres and Lesja, I don't know if coexistence is the right word to use atleast not after Norway became a Christian nation, but the Sami have definitely had a presence in Norway.
Samer i Valdres for 1000 år siden - gammetufter funnet (http://www.oppland.no/Fag-og-tjenester/Kulturvern/Aktuelt-kulturvern/Samer-i-Valdres-for-1000-ar-siden---gammetufter-funnet/)(In Norwegian.)
http://www.info-hoteles.com/no/mapas/oppland.gif

Apperantly there is even folktales from Eidfjord and Hardanger about saami living there.

"Med noen gamle halvglemte sagn er å fortelle at
Eidfjordfjellene og Hardangervidda i de eldste tider
var beboet av finner, som drev sine reinhjorder
omkring deroppe på samme vis som de gjøre det endnu
den dag i dag i Finnmarken og Finland. Disse folk har
alltid havt rykte for at øve trolldom og hekseri, og
da ikke kunde ungåes at folket i Eidfjorf kom i
adskillig berøring med dem, har dette naboskap
etterlatt spor, der er merkbare den dag i dag ved
utallige sagn og trolldom, besværgelser, åndemaninger
og liknende, det afgiver vitensbyrd oom en mørk og
fordummet overtro. Oppe på viddene havde finnene
ligget med sine besværgelser og trolldomskunster.
Finnerne på fjellet havde sin egen hemmelighetsfulle
religion, som ingen forstod." (Natur, folkeliv og
folketro i Hardanger", Haukenes s 67.)

Quick translation by me:

With a few half forgotten legends there is to be told that Eidfjordfjellene and Hardangervidda in the older days was inhabited by the Finns(that is what Norwegians called the Sami in the old days) that drove their reindeer herds like they do today in Finnmark and Finland, these people have always had a reputation for sorcery and witchery, so it was not to be avoided that the people of Eidgjord came into contact with them and this relationship has left it's traces, even today there are countless legends of witchcraft, curses and magic arts, the Finns on the mountain had their own secret religion that nobody could understand.

[Anthropos]

"Med noen gamle halvglemte sagn er å fortelle at
Eidfjordfjellene og Hardangervidda i de eldste tider
var beboet av finner, som drev sine reinhjorder
omkring deroppe på samme vis som de gjøre det endnu
den dag i dag i Finnmarken og Finland. Disse folk har
alltid havt rykte for at øve trolldom og hekseri, og
da ikke kunde ungåes at folket i Eidfjorf kom i
adskillig berøring med dem, har dette naboskap
etterlatt spor, der er merkbare den dag i dag ved
utallige sagn og trolldom, besværgelser, åndemaninger
og liknende, det afgiver vitensbyrd oom en mørk og
fordummet overtro. Oppe på viddene havde finnene
ligget med sine besværgelser og trolldomskunster.
Finnerne på fjellet havde sin egen hemmelighetsfulle
religion, som ingen forstod." (Natur, folkeliv og
folketro i Hardanger", Haukenes s 67.)

Interestingly, the quote just proves you wrong. If 'finner' refers to Sami - and this can be granted without much doubt considering that they are described in no few words exactly as Sami, and since the words Soumi and Sami (I repeat: the words) are similar enough that a confusion may have taken place in this case - then it is clear beyond any doubt whatever that they had not not 'coexisted' much with Scandinavians.

[Pallantides]

The article is about the Coexistence in pre-Christian times, the legends from Eidsfjord are from the Middle ages and later when the Sami were viewed as a pagan and heretic people, Christianity changed the Norwegians outlook on the Sami considerably, btw Finn is what the Norwegians called the Sami.

[Anthropos]

The article is about the Coexistence in pre-Christian times, the legends from Eidsfjord are from the Middle ages, Christianity changed the Norwegians outlook on the Sami considerably, btw Finn is what the Norwegians called Sami.

Come on man, use your own ability to think? For Christianity to be able to change the outlook of Norwegians on the Sami, a necessary precondition is that the two groups were distinct and separate from each other in the first place!

[Pallantides]

You can try getting your point across without hurling insults at me.:rolleyes2:
Two groups can coexiste even if they are distinict, I don't think anyone has ever made the claim that the Sami and Norse are the same people, both are two seperate distinct cultures and peoples but they did interact and sometimes even intermarried with each other.

[Anthropos]

You can try getting your point across without hurling insults at me.:rolleyes2:What insults?



Two groups can coexiste even if they are distinict, I don't think anyone has ever made the claim that the Sami and Norse are the same people, both are two seperate distinct cultures and peoples but they did interact (A) and sometimes even intermarried with each other (B).

Argument B:

When a Norwegian man married a Sami woman, that woman was most likely integrated into the Norwegian etnicity.


Argument A:

Interaction is one thing and coexistence is something completely different. Let's say for the sake of the argument (and solely therefore) that Norwegians took some impression from encounters with Sami prior to the compostion of the Sagas. Be that as it may, it's still not a matter of 'coexistence'.

[nisse]

coexistence: existing peacefully together

The Saami, although a minority, still survive. So either:

A. Norwegians are very bad warriers (doubt it)

or

B. They were living *peacefully* with the Saami.

Coexistence doesn't have much to do with integration.

[Pallantides]

Then again there are no evidence of any large scale violent encounters between the Norse and the Sami, so I believe the Sami and Norse had relatively peacefull relations, that to me is coexistence.

co·ex·ist (kg-zst)
intr.v. co·ex·ist·ed, co·ex·ist·ing, co·ex·ists
1. To exist together, at the same time, or in the same place.
2. To live in peace with another or others despite differences, especially as a matter of policy:

[Anthropos]

coexistence: existing peacefully together

The Saami, although a minority, still survive. So either:

A. Norwegians are very bad warriers (doubt it)

or

B. They were living *peacefully* with the Saami.

Coexistence doesn't have much to do with integration.

You are just a very bad troll there, I'm afraid. Who said that Norwegians should have been as nasty as to want to wipe out Samis in the first place?

Conclusions about existing peacefully 'with' or 'together' with the Sami are hasted. Existing more or less peacefully separated side by side has nothing to do with 'coexistence' after the manner in which Pallantides is (always) trying to prove it, without any success.

[Pallantides]

'coexistence' in the manner that Pallantides is (always) trying to prove

Always trying to prove?

This is my first thread on the subject and the article is from the University of Bergen.

[d3cimat3d]

Then again there are no evidence of any large scale violent encounters between the Norse and the Sami,


:D I can imagine how that went, probably something like this :D

OmeCxBNxvBE

[Anthropos]

Always trying to prove?

This is my first thread on the subject and the article is from the University of Bergen.

You started out here with ridiculous, bad photos of Scandinavian and Germanic people comparing them with people with Sami ancestry, trying to prove something, as if such a comparison could be proof of anything apart from your individual obsessions. So what if racial differences are not all that marked any longer? You also brought up the issue of intermarriage here as if it should be proof of anything. Those are not reasons to deny that in this case most likely racial differences were much more marked in the past, and even less would it be any reason to confound Samis with Norwegians and Swedes.

[nisse]

You are just a very bad troll there, I'm afraid.
You are not affraid, you are paranoid ;)


Those are not reasons to deny that most likely racial differences were much more marked in the past
...And they are less pronounced now due to intermarriage - which implies not only peaceful coexistence between the two groups, but even gene flow, which establishes that the two groups were closer than just "coexisting".

[Anthropos]

You are not affraid, you are paranoid ;)


...And they are less pronounced now due to intermarriage - which implies not only peaceful coexistence between the two groups, but even gene flow, which establishes that the two groups were closer than just "coexisting".

That retarded racial point of view says nothing. I just explained that, but it passed entirely unnoticed to you, so that you were not even able to respond to the argument. I am not paranoid, and you should stay out of this since you are completely ignorant in the matter.

[d3cimat3d]

It's not a matter of coexistence, it's just that the Vikings were in search of green grass and pasture lands. Tell me, why would the Norse need to conquer and subjugate the Saami for? To take over their reindeer herds? I don't think so. The Norse did not care for the frozen wastelands that lay to the north of them, they were in search of easy living, not arctic like conditions.

[nisse]

That retarded racial point of view says nothing. I just explained that, but it passed entirely unnoticed to you, so that you were not even able to respond to the argument.
Your argument that people exist separately from their bodies? Or that reproduction is not interaction?

As for my ability to comment on this, I am a fan on Scandinavian folklore and have read many stories/myths that include the Saami. I don't claim any first hand knowledge, hardly a handicap, since the present situation is not what is being discussed here.

[Anthropos]

It's not a matter of coexistence, it's just that the Vikings were in search of green grass and pasture lands. Tell me, why would the Norse need to conquer and subjugate the Saami for? To take over their reindeer herds? I don't think so. The Norse did not care for the frozen wastelands that lay to the north of them, they were in search of easy living, not arctic like conditions.

They were not Vikings at that point and neither did all of them become Vikings, but apart from that it's correct.

[Pallantides]

You started out here with ridiculous, bad photos of Scandinavian and Germanic people comparing them with people with Sami ancestry,

Actually I started out with posting threads like these:

Sætersdalen in Aust-Agder, Norway. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12322)

Old portraits of Norwegians from the Borgen collection. (Picture heavy thread) (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12232)

Telemark in Norway (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12367)

Rural life in south Norway at the dawn of the 20th Century. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12095)

My DNA test results. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12177)

Old pictures from Vestfold and Østfold in Norway (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12330)

Pictures from Kristiania/Oslo, Norway(1880-1925) (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12317)

Old pictures from Bergen in Hordaland, Norway (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12371)

I also made a few threads about the Sami, but that is because their culture interest me.
Portraits of the Sami by John Francis Campbell (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12398)


I never claimed Norwegians and Sami are the same people, genetics show that they are two very distinct and seperate groups of people , I'm an ethnic Norwegian that cluster with other Norwegians on genetic plots but I have a 5th cousin at 23andMe who is Sami and also some ancestors on my mothers side who were Sami, so there must have been some "sexual interaction" going on.

[The Ripper]

Interestingly, the quote just proves you wrong. If 'finner' refers to Sami - and this can be granted without much doubt considering that they are described in no few words exactly as Sami, and since the words Soumi and Sami (I repeat: the words) are similar enough that a confusion may have taken place in this case - then it is clear beyond any doubt whatever that they had not not 'coexisted' much with Scandinavians.

Why is it that every Swede that ever lived always mispelled "Suomi" as "Soumi". :confused:

I'm starting to think its systematic arrogance. :D

[Anthropos]

Why is it that every Swede that ever lived always mispelled "Suomi" as "Soumi". :confused:

I'm starting to think its systematic arrogance. :D

Don't be a troll. Bear in mind that those unaware of what the discussion is about might take you seriously. ;) It's a spelling error, so what?

[Pallantides]

It's not a matter of coexistence, it's just that the Vikings were in search of green grass and pasture lands. Tell me, why would the Norse need to conquer and subjugate the Saami for? To take over their reindeer herds? I don't think so. The Norse did not care for the frozen wastelands that lay to the north of them, they were in search of easy living, not arctic like conditions.

The Norse Kingdom of Hålogaland included a large part of Northern Norway.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Norwegian_petty_kingdoms_ca._860.png/339px-Norwegian_petty_kingdoms_ca._860.png

Areas were the Sami live(in the Middle Ages they probably lived even further South.)
http://www.scandinavianadventures.nl/info/images/Lapland.jpg


The coastline of Northern Norway was settled early on by Norwegian colonists,there were plenty of resources and fish along the Northern coast, later in the 17th century many people from Østerdalen in South East Norway migrated up to Finnmark.

[Anthropos]

Sami are one of those ethnic groups that were shoved around a bit in the past and that's most unfortunate. I'd be among the last to take any conceited pride in that fact. But what I do not tolerate is the tendency of Samis to revise history in ridiculous ways to strengthen their positions politically. There is no reason to give a finger or even a nail to them in that.

[Pallantides]

But what I do not tolerate is the tendency of Samis to revise history in ridiculous ways to strengthen their positions politically.

I'm not a Sami and neither are most of the Norwegian historians or scholars who try in your opinion to "revise history",

[Anthropos]

I'm not a Sami and neither are most of the Norwegian historians or scholars who try in your opinion to "revise history",

Did I say that you are a Sami? Did I say that all revisionists are Sami?

[Pallantides]

Did I say that you are a Sami? Did I say that all revisionists are Sami?

That was what it seemed you were implying with your post, I'm sorry that I misread you. :)

[nisse]

But what I do not tolerate is the tendency of Samis to revise history in ridiculous ways to strengthen their positions politically.


Did I say that all revisionists are Sami?

Since you weren't implying that all revisionism is done by Saami, or that someone here is Saami, the reason you specifically said that you don't tolerate Saami revisionism was because ...you tolerate revisionism as long as it's not done by Saami?

:rofl:

[Fortis in Arduis]

http://randomviewpoints.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/coexist.jpg

:grouphug:

:coffee:

[Pallantides]

Lol...don't ruin the thread.:p

[Hrolf Kraki]

This does not surprise me. There are many accounts of Vikings in Halogaland raiding the Sami and Finns. I would imagine some intermingling between cultures. In fact, Ketil Flatnose is believed to be of partial Sami descent as his father's name was Bjorn Buna, a non-Norse cognomen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketil_Flatnose

[The Ripper]

Pretty much everyone raided and taxed the Sámi during the late iron age. Kvens, Finns, Norse, Karelians.

[Hrolf Kraki]

Pretty much everyone raided and taxed the Sámi during the late iron age. Kvens, Finns, Norse, Karelians.

Yes, so it's no surprise that some aspects of the cultures may be shared. I believe that's to be expected at least on some level.

[Pallantides]

Pretty much everyone raided and taxed the Sámi during the late iron age. Kvens, Finns, Norse, Karelians.

Yes, this is also in the Sami folktales, the marauding Chudes.

[The Ripper]

Yes, this is also in the Sami folktales, the marauding Chudes.

Did the Sámi also call Finnics "Chudes"? I thought this was a Novgorodian term.

[nisse]

Isn't Saami part of the finno-ugric language family? Because "chude" includes Saamis in Russian, as far as I know.

[The Ripper]

Isn't Saami part of the finno-ugric language family? Because "chude" includes Saamis in Russian, as far as I know.

It is part of the Finno-Ugric language family, yes, but its not in the Baltic Finnish group like Finnish or Estonian. It has its own sub-group called "Finno-Lappic".

I did not know also Sámi were called Chudes by Russians.

[nisse]

It is part of the Finno-Ugric language family, yes, but its not in the Baltic Finnish group like Finnish or Estonian. It has its own sub-group called "Finno-Lappic".

I did not know also Sámi were called Chudes by Russians.
I thought something along those lines...

In Russian chud' is a collective name for all Finno-Ugric tribes, even the ones living in the Ural region.

[Pallantides]

Some information about Sámi faith and mythology (http://saivu.com/web/index.php?giella1=eng)


This does not surprise me. There are many accounts of Vikings in Halogaland raiding the Sami and Finns. I would imagine some intermingling between cultures. In fact, Ketil Flatnose is believed to be of partial Sami descent as his father's name was Bjorn Buna, a non-Norse cognomen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketil_Flatnose

Intresting, most of his family emigrated to Iceland, so perhaps Björk is one of his descendants.:p
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/2390/l4d718d5604c24f0fbf3227.jpg


Did the Sámi also call Finnics "Chudes"? I thought this was a Novgorodian term.

In Ofelaš they are referred to as 'Tsjude' wich in the english translation is 'Chude', I'm not sure of it's accuracy.

[The Ripper]

I thought something along those lines...

In Russian chud' is a collective name for all Finno-Ugric tribes, even the ones living in the Ural region.

It would seem to me that the term has meant slightly different things during different times. Mostly it seems to be applied to the Baltic Finnish peoples, especially during the early middle-ages, but also Komi and Mordvin. I've yet encounter a source where Sámis are called Chudes.

[nisse]

It's def. true that the definition is not always consistent.
I googled it and came up with some specific Finno-Ugric tribe named that, as well as various definitions including different Finno-Ugric tribes.

[d3cimat3d]

The Norse Kingdom of Hålogaland included a large part of Northern Norway.


Hålogaland was mostly just a population of fisherman, wheras Sami lived more inland, since this was more suitable for their lifestyle of reindeer herding.

[Pallantides]

Hålogaland was mostly just a population of fisherman, wheras Sami lived more inland, since this was more suitable for their lifestyle of reindeer herding.

The Sea Sami lived near the coasts and fjords.

'As the Sea Sami settled along Norway's fjords and inland waterways pursuing a combination of farming, cattle raising, trapping and fishing, the smaller minority of the Mountain Sami continued to hunt wild reindeer. Around 1500, they started to tame these animals into herding groups, becoming the well-known reindeer nomads, often portrayed by outsiders as following the archetypal Sami lifestyle.'


'The fishing along the north Norwegian coast, especially in the Lofoten and Vesterålen islands, is quite productive with a variety of fish, and during medieval times it was a major source of income for both the fisherman and the Norwegian monarchy. With such massive population drops caused by the Black Death, the tax revenues from this industry greatly diminished. Because of the huge economic profits that could be had from these fisheries, the local authorities offered incentives to the Sami – faced with their own population pressures – to settle on the newly vacant farms. This started the economic division between the ‘Sea Sami’ (sjøsamene) who fished extensively off the coast, and the ‘Mountain Sami’ (fjellsamene, innlandssamene) who continued to hunt (among other, small-game animals), and later herd, reindeer. Even as late as the early 1700s, there were many Sami who were still settling on these farms left abandoned from the 1350s. After many years of continuous migration, these 'Sea Sami' became far more numerous than the reindeer mountain Sami, who today only make up 10% of all Sami.'

[d3cimat3d]

:rolleyes: And how many 'sea Sami' were there? 29? Nothing significant enough to mean anything.

Anyways I don't really care about the Sami, nor do I know much about them, however like I explained earlier, I know the settlment patterns of the Norse, and they didn't settle in Sami lands very densley. You listed one kingdom, Halogaland, but the majority of the kingdoms were in southern Norway.

Only reason I was interested in this thread is because it had the word 'Norse' in it.
I regret I was ever pulled into this argument about the boring Sami.

[Pallantides]

I regret I was ever pulled into this argument about the boring Sami.

...nobody is forcing you to participate in the discussion:thumbs up

[d3cimat3d]

...nobody is forcing you to participate in the discussion:thumbs up

You're right. I participated voluntarily.

Like I said earlier, I'm only in it for information regarding the Norse, since the Sami have always been insignificant nobodies.

[Pallantides]

You're right. I participated voluntarily.

Like I said earlier, I'm only in it for information regarding the Norse, since the Sami have always been insignificant nobodies.

Well some of us are intrested in studying the culture and history of those insignificant nobodies.:thumb001:

[d3cimat3d]

Well some of us are intrested in studying the culture and history of those insugnificant nobodies.:thumb001:

Not much to study.

Snow flakes fell, Sami killed deer... and that's about it.:p

[nisse]

Like I said earlier, I'm only in it for information regarding the Norse, since the Sami have always been insignificant nobodies.
...yeah...not like Moldovans, Ukrainians, and Ossetians :rolleyes:...not that it matters to a German like you.

@ Pallantides: Could you recommend some other sites on Saami culture/religion? The one you've linked above is good, but doesn't really have too much detail.

[Pallantides]

@ Pallantides: Could you recommend some other sites on Saami culture/religion? The one you've linked above is good, but doesn't really have too much detail.

http://www.utexas.edu/courses/sami/dieda/history.htm

[d3cimat3d]

...yeah...not like Moldovans, Ukrainians, and Ossetians not that it matters to a German like you.


Are you insane? Those people which I descend from happen to have the deepest history on earth... The first towns in Europe were in Moldova (Cucuteni culture) each town had more than 15,000 people, and these towns precede the towns of Mesopotamia by more than a thousand years.

Ukrainians also are rich in history, very significant people. They've been in the path of endless invasions, both from east and west directions. But you wouldn't know that. :rolleyes:
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa29/powerup927/Scythians_Map-5.jpg
And Ossetians are quite possibly the most important figures in history, since they descend from the Scythians, who dominated 1/4 of the old world:

And I don't even need to mention German history, because it's obvious they were very significant, especially in the last few centuries.

^
Sami don't even come close to the importance of any of those people I mentioned.

[nisse]

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa29/powerup927/Scythians_Map-5.jpg
You're confusing geography and inhabitants. ;)


Sami don't even come close to the importance of any of those people I mentioned.
None of the people "you've mentioned" have contibuted much to the *modern* civilization.

And if you start looking at the past, Saami no doubt have just as rich a history as any other peoples. Probably more so, considering their nomadic behaviour...Their culture and religion are fascinating, that's for sure.

[d3cimat3d]

You're confusing geography and inhabitants. ;)


I don't think you understand that ^this statement makes no sense. geography and 'inhabitants' go hand in hand. (f.e. Inhabitants live on geography)





None of the people "you've mentioned" have contibuted much to the *modern* civilization.


Ossetia:

* Gas pipeline supplying Russia with much of its needed fuel.

* Ossetian athletes are responsible for a huge % of Russian Federation's gold medal winnings in EVERY olympics that have so far been held. Ossetia gives Russia the finest wrestlers, boxers, judo masters, and Russia gets credit for Ossetian achievment.

Moldova:

*O-zone, Numa-Numa:rolleyes: the best song to ever exist :cool: need I say more?

Germany:

*The worlds first petrol/gasoline engine, diesel engine, motorcycle and jet engine was invented in Germany. (Reitwagen)

*BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Audi, Porsche, VW are all German automobile companies.

*Aspirin & other important life saving medicine.

^ Tell me, are those still not enough contributions to the modern world for you?

There's way more, I'm just to lazy to list.

Now, why don't you tell me, what has YOUR part of the world (backwardistan) contributed to the modern world?




And if you start looking at the past, Saami no doubt have just as rich a history as any other peoples. Probably more so, considering their nomadic behaviour...Their culture and religion are fascinating, that's for sure.


Saami history is just as deep as the Aboriginals of Australia were.

[Loki]

I regret I was ever pulled into this argument about the boring Sami.

Then leave it. The Sami are less boring than you. Stop insulting ethnic groups in a wholesale manner. This thread is about Sami, so don't derail it. Go start another thread in Off-Topic if you feel the need to announce your ethnic superiority.

[nisse]

I don't think you understand that ^this statement makes no sense. geography and 'inhabitants' go hand in hand. (f.e. Inhabitants live on geography)
Newsflash: people are not trees.
The creation of modern Europe included a lot of movement of various tribes, mixing, etc. To give an example, the people who created those ancient town you claim exist in Moldova are at best a blip on the overall demographic picture of what we now know as Moldova. Both culturally and genetically.


Ossetia:


* Gas pipeline supplying Russia with much of its needed fuel.
:rofl:
Built by whom?...and Russia's got enough "much needed fuel" of its own.

This is not an ossetian achievement ;)


* Ossetian athletes are responsible for a huge % of Russian Federation's gold medal winnings in EVERY olympics that have so far been held. Ossetia gives Russia the finest wrestlers, boxers, judo masters, and Russia gets credit for Ossetian achievment.
Give some numbers.
...actually, don't bother, athletics are only good for feeding egos, not feeding mouths or minds.

The only nation on that list that contributed anything significant to modernity is Germany (which I excluded from my list of "insignifican" nations, btw ;))


Now, why don't you tell me, what has YOUR part of the world (backwardistan) contributed to the modern world?
We're lucky not to be guilty of too many crimes :).

EDIT: I looked it up, and there are 2 Nobel laureates from my city alone.

But by your logic, we can claim all of Russia's accomplishments (other than athletic ones ;)) since Ukraine is the original Rus.

[Phil75231]

I didn't bother reading the whole thread, but I did skim through the Norse-Saami link.

I can believe "Sea Saami" lived in the southernmost part of their coastal range, given central Norway does have trees. I'm not really sure about the Finnmark area, given there are no trees (notwithstanding Inuits able to make kayaks from seal skins). AFAIK, Saami didn't have kayaks or equivalent thereof.

If anything, any Norse displacing of Saami took place through population increases, with perhaps a few battles here and there. BTW, wasn't Bjarniland (sp?) supposed to be around the White Sea (Murmansk/Archangelsk area)? Sorry if that confuses you, but I don't know the Russian or Ukrainian term for that body of water jutting inland from those cities.

[Pallantides]

There have been discovered archiological sites of Sámi settlements as far south as Oppland in South Norway, I doubt there was much fighting between the Norse and the Sámi, since the Sámi were a peaceful folk that prefered to retreat than to engage in open conflict.


The Sámi were not
warriors in the conventional sense. They simply didn't believe in war
and so they "disappeared" in times of conflict. The Sámi remain one
culture that has never been to war but are known as "peaceful
retreaters" adapting to changing living conditions, whether they were caused by nature or by other people.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/nordic-faq/part2_NORDEN/section-2.html



'Never was there battle,
Never brother's blood was spilt
Amongst the peaceful Saami kin.'

from the anthem 'Sámi soga lávlla'(Song of the Sámi People)

[d3cimat3d]

There have been discovered archiological sites of Sámi settlements as far south as Oppland in South Norway, I doubt there was much fighting between the Norse and the Sámi, since the Sámi were a peaceful folk that prefered to retreat than to engage in open conflict.



http://www.faqs.org/faqs/nordic-faq/part2_NORDEN/section-2.html

from 'Sámi soga lávlla'(Song of the Sámi People)
'Never was there battle,
Never brother's blood was spilt
Amongst the peaceful Saami kin.'

Well let me ask you, what are Saami's doing in modern times that are so significant for Norway? I doubt there is even enough of them to make a difference.


Then leave it. The Sami are less boring than you. Stop insulting ethnic groups in a wholesale manner. This thread is about Sami, so don't derail it. Go start another thread in Off-Topic if you feel the need to announce your ethnic superiority.

For the sake of my reputation, I'm forced to finish what I've started.




The creation of modern Europe included a lot of movement of various tribes, mixing, etc. To give an example, the people who created those ancient town you claim exist in Moldova are at best a blip on the overall demographic picture of what we now know as Moldova. Both culturally and genetically.



Those inhabitants who built the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture didn't go anywhere (unless you're suggesting they were all abducted by aliens). Their name may have changed, but the inhabitants remained and became what we know now in modern times as Moldovans, all but a name change you see. Of course there was a small input of foreign genetics, but that's very minimal and dosn't show up much on dna plots, but over all, the base of Moldovans are still those Cucuteni-Tryptillian founders, with the exception of minor Slavic/Turkic input which recently came in the past millenium.

As far as Ossetia is concerned. Sure, Ossetia didn't contribute much in modern time, due to their bad luck of spawning in the center of all the drama that was to occur (wars, invasions, famines, Stalins rule, Catherine the Great...) Ossetia was doomed from the begininng, especially since they had a completley psychotic empire brewing to the north of them, who swallowed them up into the "Soviet Union" and ultimatley claimed many Ossetian lives. Not only does Russia use Ossetian athletes to win medals for Russia, but Russia also used Ossetian men to fight your wars, of which Ossetians had no business in. Ossetia was never able to get back on their feet because of this.
So we can say, it's Russia's fault for Ossetia's current situation.

(By the way, the most 'Heroes of the Soviet Union' medals were awarded to Caucasians ,with Ossetians leading)

Aside from modern achievments, the Ossetian ancestors, known as the Scythians, were the first to domesticate the horse, and also the first to develop chariots. The domestication of the horse in itself is the greatest achievment known to man because now people are able to cover 300 km in a single day, something that they couldn't do on foot in a entire week.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa29/powerup927/Chariot_spread.png

Anyways this will be my last post on this thread. I've been thrown way off topic.

[Jamt]

Nomad, I hope I newer welcomed you to Apricity but now I think you should be removed and banned from here for vasting time and being a boor.

[d3cimat3d]

I'm not wasting your time, just my own.
No ones forcing you to read my material.
And if I get banned I could care less, I have a life to tend to.
Besides, I thought this was a 'free speech' forum, or was that all a lie to get me to sign up?

[Hrolf Kraki]

For the sake of my reputation, I'm forced to finish what I've started.


Your reputation as what? A dumbass? Don't worry, your rep is intact.

[Jamt]

..

[d3cimat3d]

Your reputation as what? A dumbass? Don't worry, your rep is intact.

You should see my rep box, there is a insane amount of people who think otherwise.

Only dumbass here is you, backward redneck.


Give my one thousand Laurentin.

I don't get it? Is this supposed to be some kind of joke? You could at least try to be funny next time, no one knows WTF a 'Laurentin' is.

[Jamt]

..

[Hrolf Kraki]

You should see my rep box, there is a insane amount of people who think otherwise.

Only dumbass here is you, backward redneck.

I'd love to see your rep box. Show us all how bad ass everyone thinks you are.

[Eldritch]

I'd love to see your rep box. Show us all how bad ass everyone thinks you are.

I'd love to see a screenshot of it too, but I'm afraid that confidentiality issues would get in the way.

[nisse]

Those inhabitants who built the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture didn't go anywhere (unless you're suggesting they were all abducted by aliens).
:rofl:
So that's what you meant. Trypillya culture from *Ukraine* aka Cucuteni from *Romania*, with Moldova just being a small connnecting piece is the big *Moldovan* achievement. What a load of BS.

And you can't show genetic (much less cultural) continuity between those people and modern inhabitants because the archeological record 1. doesn't give enough information (esp. considering they burnt their villages often - do they do that in Moldova now?) 2. There is no written record of them. 3. Any DNA that might be collected would be very hard to reliably analyze due to degradation.

...and Mesopotamia is older ;)


Ossetia was doomed from the begininng, especially since they
...were never capable of much and were only good for cannon fodder and throwing their weight around in some sports arena.


Aside from modern achievments, the Ossetian ancestors, known as the Scythians, were the first to domesticate the horse, and also the first to develop chariots.


The clearest evidence of early use of the horse as a means of transport is from chariot burials dated c. 2000 BCE. However, an increasing amount of evidence supports the hypothesis that horses were domesticated in the Eurasian Steppes (Dereivka centered in Ukraine) approximately 4000-3500 BCE


Anyways this will be my last post on this thread. I've been thrown way off topic.
The best thing you've posted in all your posting history. :thumb001:

[Eldritch]

That's a nice hole you got there Nomad. Keep digging. :)

[d3cimat3d]

:rofl:
So that's what you meant. Trypillya culture from *Ukraine* aka Cucuteni from *Romania*, with Moldova just being a small connnecting piece is the big *Moldovan* achievement. What a load of BS.



That culture was centered in Moldova, and it only engulfed a small area of
Ukraine. Besides you're from eastern Ukraine, a good 750km east of where Cucuteni took place... Nice try.


:
And you can't show genetic (much less cultural) continuity between those people and modern inhabitants because the archeological record 1. doesn't give enough information (esp. considering they burnt their villages often - do they do that in Moldova now?) 2. There is no written record of them. 3. Any DNA that might be collected would be very hard to reliably analyze due to degradation.


Well thanks for pointing out the obvious, but what I'm saying is, the Cucuteni founders didn't just board a space ship and dissapear to mars... They remained, that's common sense. Just like modern Swedes aren't called Vikings now, but almost all (with the exception of recent immigrants) are descended from Vikings. Changing your ethnic name dosn't mean you are a different people.;)




...were never capable of much and were only good for cannon fodder and throwing their weight around in some sports arena.



Joseph Stalin was half south Ossetian on his mothers side.
What lame excuse are you going to come up with now?


That's a nice hole you got there Nomad. Keep digging. :)

It would be easier if someone gave me a shovel.

[nisse]

That culture was centered in Moldova, and it only engulfed a small area of
Ukraine. Besides you're from eastern Ukraine, a good 750km east of where Cucuteni took place... Nice try.
Yet again: :rofl:
1. I don't care to establish any remarkable bloodline for myself and don't give a damn whether these people were my ancestors or not. I'm just fed up with your bullshit.
2. Modern Ukraine made up *most* of the are of spread of this culture (from your favourite source):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7d/Cucuteni_Trypillian_culture_boundaries.PNG

...and by the way:


Talianki (Cherkasy Oblast, Ukraine) was the location of the largest known settlement of the Neolithic Cucuteni-Trypillian culture,


Well thanks for pointing out the obvious, but what I'm saying is, the Cucuteni founders didn't just board a space ship and dissapear to mars... They remained, that's common sense.
That's not common sense. Common sense is sooner the opposite. Note the date:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Invasions_of_the_Roman_Empire_1.png/800px-Invasions_of_the_Roman_Empire_1.png


Joseph Stalin was half south Ossetian on his mothers side.
What lame excuse are you going to come up with now?
:eek:
ROFL...and what a great man he was...a son Ossetia can be proud of :rolleyes:...just shows how little there is for it to be proud of.


It would be easier if someone gave me a shovel.
Why? You seem to be a big proponent of brawn over brains. Work it out with brute force.

[d3cimat3d]

That's not common sense. Common sense is sooner the opposite. Note the date:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Invasions_of_the_Roman_Empire_1.png/800px-Invasions_of_the_Roman_Empire_1.png


That's a load of bullshit. Not all people migrated, as a matter of fact, the majority stayed put once the Huns arrived, and retreated in the forests, where Hunnic cavalry was immobile in the thick Moldovan forests.

Also the Gothic sagas seem to favor this. f.e. when the Huns arrived, the saga describes only a few people dividing and heading south to Bulgaria, the greater majority stayed, some went to the Carpathians and hid, where no Hunnish horse could go, and others just dwelled in the forests, where they never even came in contact with the Huns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hl%C3%B6%C3%B0skvi%C3%B0a

After all, the etymology of the Moldovan Goths (Thervingi) means "forest people"-




:eek:
ROFL...and what a great man he was...a son Ossetia can be proud of :rolleyes:...just shows how little there is for it to be proud of.


A black haired common man (Gypsy as you put it), coming from the poorest of families, laughed at for being non-Slavic, and yet this man over came all odds and rose to power in a place where Slavs were the vast majority. Is that nothing to be proud of? That's a story of perserverance against all odds.

Not only did this Ossetian man dominate the Slavs with a iron grip, he also sent millions of them to their deaths in the Siberian gulags, and he starved Ukraine out to the point where 18,000,000 died of famine. Reason why he did that was because Ukrainians were acting a bit like you are acting now, arrogant and cocky. Stalin crushed Ukrainian nationalism, and no Ukrainian ever bragged about his/her superiority ever again.

That's something to be proud of.:thumbs up

[Loki]

Not only did this Ossetian man dominate the Slavs with a iron grip, he also sent millions of them to their deaths in the Siberian gulags, and he starved Ukraine out to the point where 18,000,000 died of famine. Reason why he did that was because Ukrainians were acting a bit like you are acting now, arrogant and cocky. Stalin crushed Ukrainian nationalism, and no Ukrainian ever bragged about his/her superiority ever again.

That's something to be proud of.:thumbs up

Are you sick in your mind?

[nisse]

That's a load of bullshit. Not all people migrated, as a matter of fact, the majority stayed put once the Huns arrived, and retreated in the forests, where Hunnic cavalry was immobile in the thick Moldovan forests.
You mean the ones that take up a whopping 6% of its terretory?


Also the Gothic sagas seem to favor this. f.e. when the Huns arrived, the saga describes only a few people dividing and heading south to Bulgaria, the greater majority stayed, some went to the Carpathians and hid, where no Hunnish horse could go, and others just dwelled in the forests, where they never even came in contact with the Huns.
What do the Goths (i.e. other invaders) have to do with the "native" population.


A black haired common man (Gypsy as you put it)
I never put it that way...but ok...


coming from the poorest of families, laughed at for being non-Slavic, and yet this man over came all odds and rose to power in a place where Slavs were the vast majority. Is that nothing to be proud of? That's a story of perserverance against all odds.
He got on good terms with the ruling elites of tha time (Jews). The only odds he had to overcome was how to make them trust him. Seeing as how he wasn't European himself, and was hated by Slavs just like they were, it wasn't too diffucult.


Stalin crushed Ukrainian nationalism, and no Ukrainian ever bragged about his/her superiority ever again.
Actually he didn't. Ukrainian nationalism was alway alive in places where Ukrainians are not culturally flexible enough to accept a surrogate culture (Russian Soviet) i.e. Western Ukraine.

Now a question for the admin: Why is he not banned?

[Loki]

Now a question for the admin: Why is he not banned?

We do not lightly ban members on Apricity. And we also do not ban on demand. He has been warned about personal insults, and his further conduct will determine many things.

As for opinions expressed, we do not ban people for having opinions. Sorry. In the short term it may appear annoying, but in the long term you will realise that freedom of expression is to be cherished.

[nisse]

We do not lightly ban members on Apricity. And we also do not ban on demand. He has been warned about personal insults, and his further conduct will determine many things.

As for opinions expressed, we do not ban people for having opinions. Sorry. In the short term it may appear annoying, but in the long term you will realise that freedom of expression is to be cherished.

1. I never demanded anything.
2. All excellent points.
3. I'll go do some "realising" now.

[Pallantides]

http://www1.nrk.no/nett-tv/klipp/251194(in Norwegian)

Snæfríður Svásadóttir (http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sn%C3%B8frid_Sv%C3%A5sedatter)(In Norwegian)

Snøfrid Svåsedotter (Snæfríður Svásadóttir) was one of Harald Fairhair's wives and of Sámi descent, her father was the Sámi Svåse Finnekonge, born ca. 850.
She was born in Tofte in Gudbrandsdalen in Oppland, she was considered to be the most beautiful woman one could lay eyes on.

With Harlad Fairhair she had the children:

Sigurd Haraldsson Rise (Sigurður hrísi)
Halvdan Hålegg (Hálfdan háleggur)
Gudrød Ljome (Guðröður ljómi)
Ragnvald Rettilbeine (Rögnvaldur réttilbeini)

[Loddfafner]

For an academic treatment of Sami influences on Norse religion, see Thom DuBois, Nordic Religions in the Viking Age (http://www.amazon.com/Nordic-Religions-Viking-Middle-Ages/dp/0812217144).

[jmwein]

Does anyone have a copy of Else Mundal's article "Coexistence of the Saami and Norse culture"? Many Norwegians, Swedes and Finns would be surprised to find out that they have Saami ancestors, just as all Norwegian kings after Harald Finehair could trace their lineage back to the Saami Snæfrid.

[Don]

To the humble importance and the poor knowledge in Spain about the Scandinavians, I can tell you that the samis are integrated in the idea of the norse or scandinavians in the collective imaginary.

No remarkable distinction is made between these "2 faces" of scandis.
But, the "lapona" or sami "face" is quite more respected here and provokes more sympathy than the "viking face", associated with bands of thugs whose war deeds consisted in assaulting little villages without armed men, destroying and fleeing.

Just to show the general idea here.

[Óttar]

Just to show the general idea here.
So, are you a peninsular or a criollo? :confused:

[Don]

So, are you a peninsular or a criollo? :confused:

My blood didn't move from Iberia in thousands of years, it seems (except continuous travels with sword in one hand to the infinite battlefields were Spain poured own child's and enemy's blood, as was duty of Castilians [B]Fueros[/I]], but if they had bastards outside Spain, its not my problem, they came back.)

I was born in Toledo.

That should answer your question.