Greece's incapability, Europe's burden

[Svanhild]

What's wrong in Europe? Every day we are faced with new bad news of the striking indebtedness of Greece and major economical problems of other European countries like Spain, Portugal or Ireland. The European Monetary Union is in a deep and serious crisis and the EU allowed undeserving countries to join the Monetary Union. Greece is a corrupt nation and could only enter the EU and the Monetary Union by means of continuous cheating with respect to the real condition of its national budget and embellishment of economical data for years and decades! Now the country is near bankrupt and unable to regain solvency.

The Maastricht contracts say that no country of the European Monetary Union has to bail out other countries of the union for self-inflicted insolvency. But now some news make a circuit that richer European countries and Germany alone prepare huge financial helps for Greece to save the country and to avoid a collapse of the Euro zone. I can't even begin to tell you how nauseated I feel! Why are our politicians so dumb? They pay for every crap. The banks, Opel...now Greece! Merkel says "We must save the system!" and she repeats it at every occasion!

The international banks are broke? Germans have to pay to save the system!
Opel/Vauxhall is broke? Germans have to pay to save the system!
Local banks like BayernLB or Arge Alpe-Adria are broke? Germans have to pay to save the system!
Greece and other corrupt European nations are broke? Germans have to play to save the system!

Let me tell you that I don't give a flying fuck of the system! I don't care for Lehmann Brothers and I don't care for Greece. If they drown in their own corruption and own mendacity I say "Let them drown". Or kick them out of the Monetary Union. Kick them out of the EU. Or dissolve the entire EU because Germany has been always the cash cow of that circus.
If other nations help Greece now they are actively awarding mismanagement and corruption. It's a sign to other corrupt countries that they can go on as before because in case of necessity the others, the decent ones, pay the prize. Have we become completely insane?

More and more Germans are sick of our political caste and with the fact that we as the taxpayers have to pay for the sins of others. German workers have to work till 67 until they can go to pension! Today I've read that Greece workers start crying and bar the streets if their state wants to introduce the pension with 63! :eek: Our government tells the nation that there's no money to spend, but there's apparently enough money to sponsor the Greece corruption for a few more years? Our politicans play with the thought to introduce the pension with 69 soon!

I shout it to entire Europe: Our German government doesn't speak for the German people. The disenchantment with politics is rising, all surveys prove that. You better prepare yourself because in a few years the time of the generous, selfless good German will be over. Our current political class dies out and the generation of 68' dies with them. The new generation is more aware of the own population and fed up to the bones with the current situation.

If your country receives money from Germany: It's our money, the taxpayer's money. It's dirty money and you should feel bad to life at our expense! A time will come when we reclaim our money. We Germans are very patient but may the lord help you if our patience snaps. It's the eleventh hour.

Regards

A very upset Svanhild

[Amapola]

Greece, our civilization.
Thanks to Greece.

[Loki]

Greece, our civilization.
Thanks to Greece.

We all came out of Africa anyway. Doesn't mean a thing. The past is not the present.

[The Lawspeaker]

Dutch press has been suspiciously silent about the troubles of the Greek economy but I have heard the "prostitution and gambling" rumors and I begin to wonder.
Where did our money go, huh ?

[Anthropos]

The Zeropean Monetary Union has spoken.

[Kadu]

I really don't understand why you're whining about, Germany basically rules the EU.
Somewhat like Medieval feudalism where the landlord, Germany in this case, granted shelter and protection in exchange for servitude.

[Zyklop]

I really don't understand why you're whining about, Germany basically rules the EU.
Somewhat like Medieval feudalism where the landlord, Germany in this case, granted shelter and protection in exchange for servitude.
What kind of services is Germany getting back specifically?

[RoyBatty]

Where did our money go, huh ?

To pay for the Olympic Games while the rest slipped down the cracks of course.

[Svanhild]

Greece, our civilization.
Thanks to Greece.
Yes. 2400 years ago. The credit is gone.


I really don't understand why you're whining about, Germany basically rules the EU.
Somewhat like Medieval feudalism where the landlord, Germany in this case, granted shelter and protection in exchange for servitude.
We're ruling the EU?

The new chiefs of the EU are Van Rompuy (Belgium), Brigitte Ashton (Great Britain) and Barroso (Portugal). It's like always: The others dictate and Germany pays.

[RoyBatty]

The EU is a mostly German / French project.

Germany is the primary financial and economic power whilst France is perhaps the most dominant military and political power. The EU is an Empire. Empires naturally cost money to rule and to expand. Germany, as the EU's main financial contributor and economic driving force understands this..... at least, the Elites do whilst the workers don't.

Greece is in effect nothing more than a rogue (financially speaking) province of the EU. Since Germany chose to use Europe as a vehicle for Empire Building it also has to accept the consequences of that decision. Consequences such as regional overspending is a good example. Ultimately it will have to "bail out" Greece and whoever else are spending themselves into oblivion.

If they don't, the Empire will weaken, International Confidence in its economy will suffer and the knock-on effect may cause further problems and discontent, something the EU's rulers obviously want to avoid.

The current Eurozone "economic crisis" is overhyped by the media in my opinion. The EU's debt levels aren't as insane as those of the USA (which are for all intents and purposes unpayable). The Euro is currently being driven down by market speculators shorting the currency. Once they've taken their profits (and perhaps there is intervention to halt shorting) the Euro will probably recover.

[Anthropos]

Yes. 2400 years ago. The credit is gone.

Greek literature and wisdom is far superiour to the German variety, in my opinion. It lasted. It speaks to the present, from the past.

[Jamt]

Sweden pays even more than Germany per capita.

I just thoght I share.

[Kadu]

What kind of services is Germany getting back specifically?

Why are they so keen on recruiting new members if they won't profit monetarily?

[RoyBatty]

The new chiefs of the EU are Van Rompuy (Belgium), Brigitte Ashton (Great Britain) and Barroso (Portugal). It's like always: The others dictate and Germany pays.

They're only revolving door politicians. These people are just apparatchiks. They aren't the real rulers. The ones who really control things (rich banking dynasties, industrialists, tycoons etc) don't necessarily show their faces on TV and the newspapers at every opportunity.

Yes Germany pays. That's the price of Empire Building and bribing other countries to fall in behind Germany and France. Don't like it? Then the only solution is to vote to get out of the EU.

[Jamt]

Why are they so keen on recruiting new members if they won't profit monetarily?

Yes it is truly sick, why do it if we dont profit? Time to wake up.

[Tabiti]

I graduate (engineer degree with excellent marks) in few months and I'm almost sure I wouldn't find not only a proper job, but a job as a whole. Do I complain and start accusing others of my own uneasy situation? No and I'm not going to make this. We created those systems and international governments, we jointed them by "free will". It's not a time for weeping. One thing I like about Greeks is that they at least show their disagreement and act, even if that doesn't have any point at the moment. And it's not the ordinary people who are pleased and have interest in corruption. Everything is happening in the higher political levels, which "should be kept under the eye of the mighty EU system". In fact, no one of those damn politicians, no matter from which country, cares about you and me...

[Svanhild]

Greek literature and wisdom is far superiour to the German variety, in my opinion. It lasted. It speaks to the present, from the past.
So does German literature and science. It's useless and a waste of time to argue about personal tastes. The Romance population of Europe has other preferences and idols than the Germanic or Slavic population of Europe.

By the way, the medium you use for communication is the computer. Google a little bit about the history of computers. :wink


Sweden pays even more than Germany per capita.

I just thoght I share.
Maybe per capita, but not in total. In 2008, the net amount of Germany to the EU household amounted to 8,8 billion €. The net amount is the balance of all earnings of the community budget and all contributions to the EU.
Largest net recipient of 2008 was Greece with more than 6 billion €. And they wasted all the money.

Please don't forget the billions of € Germany has to pay for bilateral treaties and other international organisations. IWF, NATO, development aid...

[Kadu]

Yes it is truly sick, why do it if we dont profit? Time to wake up.

If there wasn't any economic interest i can assure you that they would be out of the game by now.

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

Germans are starting to feel on a European scale what Northerners feel on an Italian scale. It's everywhere the same old situation.

[Kadu]

Germans are starting to feel on a European scale what Northerners feel on an Italian scale. It's everywhere the same old situation.

Germany is still a sovereign country though.

[Svanhild]

The EU is an Empire. Empires naturally cost money to rule and to expand. Germany, as the EU's main financial contributor and economic driving force understands this..... at least, the Elites do whilst the workers don't.
Most Germans don't want an empire. I don't want one. If I wanted an empire I could wave the NS flag and mourn the loss of the world war and the all German European Reich. The EU is a project of the allied forces to subjugate and integrate Germany, to prevent us from acting self-confidently. It started with the Montan Union and is a late punishment for the Second World War.

Since Germany chose to use Europe as a vehicle for Empire Building it also has to accept the consequences of that decision.
That's not true. Europe uses Germany as the cash cow for Empire Building. The EU carries on the work of the League of Nations of the time before the Second World War.

Consequences such as regional overspending is a good example. Ultimately it will have to "bail out" Greece and whoever else are spending themselves into oblivion.
If our "elite" bails out Greece they only accelerate the level of rage of our population.

Germany is still a sovereign country though.
With the new Lisabon Treaty, it's not.

[RoyBatty]

Germany is still a sovereign country though.

Germany is still an occupied country. It's about as sovereign as Iraq.

[Anthropos]

So does German literature and science. It's useless and a waste of time to argue about personal tastes. The Romance population of Europe has other preferences and idols than the Germanic or Slavic population of Europe.

By the way, the medium you use for communication is the computer. Google a little bit about the history of computers. :wink

Not everything in the intellectual domain is a matter of taste, if you can believe it. Also, if you want to make comparison you first have to distinguish between different things. Industry and intellect are not one and the same thing. And as far as industry is concerned, what about all the weapons Germany produced for no good?

[Jamt]

If there wasn't any economic interest i can assure you that they would be out of the game by now.

Do you agree that might not be in the interest of Swedish people and their taxes?

There is taxation of close to 50% now in Sweden by the way. How much is it for Portugal?

[Kadu]

Germany is still an occupied country. It's about as sovereign as Iraq.

Not since the Berlin wall fell down.

[Svanhild]

Industry and intellect are not one and the same thing. And as far as industry is concerned, what about all the weapons Germany produced for no good?
Genius and madness are two of the same kind. A nation of geniuses creates madness every now and then. A nation of mediocrity creates neither genius nor madness. We're a nation of geniuses. You can work the rest out for yourself.

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

So does German literature and science. It's useless and a waste of time to argue about personal tastes. The Romance population of Europe has other preferences and idols than the Germanic or Slavic population of Europe.

I'm sure you know Greek is not Romance, and the Romance label covers quite a wide range of historical influences.


Not everything in the intellectual domain is a matter of taste, if you can believe it. Also, if you want to make comparison you first have to distinguish between different things. Industry and intellect are not one and the same thing. And as far as industry is concerned, what about all the weapons Germany produced for no good?
Of course Plato gave beautiful suggestions for eugenics. Still one has to concede that culture means little against superior firepower, as WWII showed.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Here's my take on the situation. My country is one of the poorer countries in the EU not atypical of Eastern European countries who are still recovering from communism that caused the stagnation of our economy compared to other Western European countries who enjoyed economic prosperity because they were never under a communist government.

Just three years ago, our three-way coalition government got us in the EU. That government is no longer in power anymore (thankfully) and now we've got the GERB (Citizens for European Development of Bulgaria) in power and they've made some strides to eliminate corruption, restore EU funding and gain a budget surplus (which we're on the way of achieving that in late 2010). We've kept our spending under control, ensure that we don't overspend and if we can't afford a project, we don't spend money on that project. Because of that, we've managed to keep our budget deficit under 3% (as required in EU pre-accession agreements) and we're continuing to lower that to gain a budget surplus.

The same cannot be said for Greece. They've been on a spending spree, bought a lot of new military hardware, various projects, other spending projects that put them into the red. Because of their spending spree, they're nearing insolvency which puts the whole Eurozone in danger all because of Greece. Greece only joined the Eurozone by cooking books which allowed them to join the EZ without meeting requirements to ensure that they won't damage the currency value.

The behavior of the Greek government have indeed been very despicable. There are various ways to deal with the problem. One of the ways is to kick them out of the monetary union. Other is to bail them out. Either course of action will damage the currency but not as severely as allowing them fall into insolvency. A lot of richer Western European countries definitely have been propping up the development of Greece for the last couple of years and yet they've managed to overspend and get in the red.

One of the concerns Svanhild pointed out was the overcontribution of Germans to the European Union. I sympathize with that, I can understand the feeling especially if Bulgaria was a rich country and a large percentage of its revenues were being used to prop up the development of poorer countries.

[RoyBatty]

Most Germans don't want an empire. I don't want one. If I wanted an empire I could wave the NS flag and mourn the loss of the world war and the all German European Reich.


Yes I understand that. It's the same for many people in many countries but things are what they are and we have no control or say over it, even if the media and the politicians pretend that we do. Unfortunately those of us in (most of) Europe are trapped in the EU.



The EU is a project of the allied forces to subjugate and integrate Germany, to prevent us from acting self confident. It started with the Montan Union and is a late punishment for the Second World War.


There's probably some truth to that but ultimately this couldn't succeed without the participation and support of Germany's media, political, financial and industrial elites.



That's not true. Europe uses Germany as the cash cow for Empire Building. The EU carries on the work of the League of Nations from the time before the Second World War.


Of course it's true. The EU countries use Germany whilst Germany in turn uses them! :D It's one of the oldest cons in the book for people / countries to try to gain advantage of one another. :thumbs up

While the German elites (together with the elites from the rest of EUrope) try to subject as many territories in Europe and beyond under their control the elites and rulers of those territories naturally try to gain as much advantage for themselves. It's a game both sides play, who can screw each other the hardest.



If your "elite" bails out Greece they only accelerate the level of rage of our population.


And what are they going to do with that rage? I'll tell you what. Nothing. Nothing is going to happen.

A few people may march. A few small skirmishes may break out. The police will come. Demonstrators will be dragged away. The day of anger will subside. People will go home back to their TV and unemployment payments.

Perhaps some people will get the "bright idea" to vote for a "different political party who will make things better". Perhaps such a party (and it's glorious leader) will even be elected. After the hype has worn off it will then become clear that nothing has changed under this new government. Why? Because the politicians and this party are owned and controlled by the same forces who controlled the previous government.

Then, a few years later, there will be another election - voted for by sheep. Another owned party (or the same one) will come into power. The cycle will repeat itself.

I'm not trying to sound negative or pessimistic but that's how things work in most European countries at the moment. It's the sad reality of what has become of "democracy".

[Kadu]

Do you agree that might not be in the interest of Swedish people and their taxes?

Yes, Sweden's case is definitely different, you've always been quite peripheral regarding the EU affairs.


There is taxation of close to 50% now in Sweden by the way. How much is it for Portugal?

It depends on each one's income, but yes it can get to 50% in some cases.

[Anthropos]

Genius and madness are two of the same kind. A nation of geniuses creates madness every now and then. A nation of mediocrity creates neither genius nor madness. We're a nation of geniuses. You can work the rest out for yourself.

Madness is inferior, even if there is a continuity. Megalomania is a form of madness, by the way, and I noted that several of the most famous German philosophers suffered from grave megalomania.

You need to put your feet back down on the ground.

[RoyBatty]

Not since the Berlin wall fell down.

So only the Soviet Union occupied Germany? The Soviets left yes. Did the Americans and British leave?

I don't recall that they did.

[Kadu]

So only the Soviet Union occupied Germany? The Soviets left yes. Did the Americans and British leave?

And don't forget the French too.:D
That's even worse than stating that European countries still have control over their former African colonies.

[Zyklop]

Not since the Berlin wall fell down.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10513

[Kadu]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10513

Agreed, but saying that it goes to an institutional level as Roy was claming, it's purely fictional.

[Troll's Puzzle]

I really don't understand why you're whining about, Germany basically rules the EU.
Somewhat like Medieval feudalism where the landlord, Germany in this case, granted shelter and protection in exchange for servitude.

you should be glad for the northern europeans actually doing work because Portugal will be needing some of that protection when it joins Spain and Greece going broke soon :thumbs up

[Monolith]

Merkel says "We must save the system!"
What good is the system, if it needs the people to bail it out? I say to hell with it.

[Falkata]

I agree with Kadu that if the EU wasn´t profitable for Germany, it would be out of the game, as other countries are, for example Norway or Switzerland. Do you think that Germany is here for solidarity or what? It´s mainly due to market expansion, new consumers for your products. Why did USA implement the Marshall plan in Europe? Charity? :rolleyes:
Also i remember some years ago the things were way different... while we were growing fastly Germany overpassed the 3% GDP deficit thanks to the dumb Schroeder and his policies. Countries that cross that limit have to pay a sanction that Germany never paid because they´re the boss of this stuff...

[Jamt]

I agree with Kadu that if the EU wasn´t profitable for Germany, it would be out of the game, as other countries are, for example Norway or Switzerland. Do you think that Germany is here for solidarity or what? It´s mainly due to market expansion, new consumers for your products. Why did USA implement the Marshall plan in Europe? Charity? :rolleyes:
Also i remember some years ago the things were way different... why we were growing fastly Germany overpassed the 3% GDP deficit thanks to the dumb Schroeder and his policies. Countries that cross that limit have to pay a sanction that Germany never paid because they´re the boss of this stuff...

You are giving the word wishful thinking a new meaning. How can you honestly believe that Germany has ewer prospered from aid to poor EU nations? Pathetic!

[Guapo]

What kind of services is Germany getting back specifically?

They're getting back lost Germanic lands in a peaceful way this time around at least. Long live the 4th Reich.

[Falkata]

You are giving the word wishful thinking a new meaning. How can you honestly believe that Germany has ewer prospered from aid to poor EU nations? Pathetic!

Didnt you read what i´ve said or what the fuck? Now they have a bigger market with a common currency and with richer people who can buy their products. Germany economy is totally based in its exports. It was the first country of the world in exports(now the second one after China). France, USA, Belgium, Netherlands, UK, Italy, Spain, Austria and Poland are the main buyers of the german products.

[poiuytrewq0987]

They're getting back lost Germanic lands in a peaceful way this time around at least. Long live the 4th Reich.

:jump0000:

I knew it! The EU is the continuance of Nazi Germany's plan to dominate Europe and Europeans!

http://media.bigoo.ws/content/smile/character/character_119.gif

[Óttar]

:jump0000:
I knew it! The EU is the continuance of Nazi Germany's plan to dominate Europe and Europeans!
The Germans recently built a military base on French soil.

[Guapo]

:jump0000:

I knew it! The EU is the continuance of Nazi Germany's plan to dominate Europe and Europeans!

http://media.bigoo.ws/content/smile/character/character_119.gif

Wars are a thing of the past. That is how the Chinese will rule the world one day, by mass emigration to other countries(even Bosnia of all places) and breeding like rabbits, without weapons.

[nisse]

Wars are a thing of the past. That is how the Chinese will rule the world one day, by mass emigration to other countries(even Bosnia of all places) and breeding like rabbits, without weapons.
Clearly you know nothing. We have chopsticks :cool:


On topic: Germany knew what it was getting into, and if it didn't know - no one to blame but themselves. ;)

[Eldritch]

I shout it to entire Europe: Our German government doesn't speak for the German people. The disenchantment with politics is rising, all surveys prove that. You better prepare yourself because in a few years the time of the generous, selfless good German will be over. Our current political class dies out and the generation of 68' dies with them. The new generation is more aware of the own population and fed up to the bones with the current situation.



That's what I am placing my hopes on: that after the Worst Generation finally retires (or dies) some semblance of sanity may be restored to European politics.

[antonio]

Yes. 2400 years ago. The credit is gone.


We're ruling the EU?

The new chiefs of the EU are Van Rompuy (Belgium), Brigitte Ashton (Great Britain) and Barroso (Portugal). It's like always: The others dictate and Germany pays.

Greek credit has to be ethernal, like Europe. On the other hand, Greece must be treated with special care and consideration because of its circunstances, much worse (invaded country for centuries, isolation from Capitalist Europe, deep language barriers) than, for example, Spanish ones: we have no excuse at all, and if we finally are to fall as I bet, UE must not offer a single finger to save us from falling. Our crash will be a nice counter-example for all the governments and Economics school around the world. Just one thing I beg from you: put in the jail all of our fucking politicians if our corrupt Justice at their service don't have bollocks to do it: a Nuremberg trial on Spanish economical nightmare (just the opposite of ideal European economics) wrongdoers would be a lessons from centuries to come. :coffee:

Pd. And spicing up the cake: feminazism, christofobia, mindless bureaucracy, updated pseudoprogresism... :pout:

[antonio]

Didnt you read what i´ve said or what the fuck? Now they have a bigger market with a common currency and with richer people who can buy their products. Germany economy is totally based in its exports. It was the first country of the world in exports(now the second one after China). France, USA, Belgium, Netherlands, UK, Italy, Spain, Austria and Poland are the main buyers of the german products.


German products are buyed around the globe, so even if we heavily crashed, we're just two or three fucking countries. They'll go on without us, don't doubt about it. Worse for them as "European engine" would be an example of Economical failure being inmediately covered (that is, rewarded) by direct cash just to accomplish year estimative profits from their companies. This would be letal for economical discipline, it would be Europe diging her own grave.

[Falkata]

German products are buyed around the globe, so even if we heavily crashed, we're just two or three fucking countries. They'll go on without us, don't doubt about it. Worse for them as "European engine" would be an example of Economical failure being inmediately covered (that is, rewarded) by direct cash just to accomplish year estimative profits from their companies. This would be letal for economical discipline, it would be Europe diging her own grave.

I´ve already written the main buyers of the german products. All of them are European countries except USA. Where people gonna buy the advanced german industrial machines? Or their expensive cars? In Uganda or Bolivia? Without the european exports Germany´s economy is death. I would like to know why you think Germany supports the EU. Because they are boring and they haven´t anything better to do? To annoy the germans? For the lulz?

And about our excuse, i thing we have a big one. If we are a poorer country than the rest of west Europe is mainly because we were out of the american Marschall Plan.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I´ve already written the main buyers of the german products. All of them are European countries except USA. Where people gonna buy the advanced german industrial machines? Or their expensive cars? In Uganda or Bolivia? Without the european exports Germany´s economy is death. I would like to know why you think Germany supports the EU. Because they are boring and they haven´t anything better to do? To annoy the germans? For the lulz?

And about our excuse, i thing we have a big one. If we are a poorer country than the rest of west Europe is mainly because we were out of the american Marschall Plan.

Germany certainly does profit significantly from the free trade zone.

The Marshall Plan:

This $13 billion was in the context of a U.S. GDP of $258 billion in 1948, and was on top of $12 billion in American aid to Europe between the end of the war and the start of the Plan

[Liffrea]

What interests me is that British tax payers are being asked to pay somewhere in the region of £3 billion to bail out a country in a monetary union that we are not part of.

Greece’s problem is the elite who wish to remain part of the EU, thus abandoning any regulation and control their government has over monetary policy. In 1992 the UK left the ERM for, more or less, the exact same reasons the Greeks are experiencing problems now.

The answer would seem to be…ditch the Euro and go back to monetary independence. Since that would probably start a chain reaction seeing other struggling economies from Portugal to Spain to Italy and Ireland pull out of the Euro as well we can expect to see the Euro elite pull out all the stops to make sure that doesn’t happen.

Interesting times ahead.

[Anthropos]

I have written about the origins of the EU elsewhere, and I will only repeat a few things, firstly that one of the purposes of the EU seems to be "to help developing countries to overcome widespread poverty through large monetary gifts (in the mold of the Marshall Plan)", something that in the light of the EU position on Kosovo is rather disturbing. In this connection one might want to give a thought to the question of Turkey's membership as well as to the 'Mediterranean Union' and other quite weird ideas and projects of the EU. If I may take a qualified guess, the EU is more an Allies project than a German project in its origins, and there are some facts that seem to support this theory:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=141193&postcount=44
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=141208&postcount=45

[SwordoftheVistula]

Here's the best of the plethora of articles I've seen on this situation in the past week, from a source that usually has good and level headed analysis:

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20100208_germanys_choice

The situation in Europe is dire.

After years of profligate spending, Greece is becoming overwhelmed. Barring some sort of large-scale bailout program, a Greek debt default at this point is highly likely. At this moment, European Central Bank liquidity efforts are probably the only thing holding back such a default. But these are a stopgap measure that can hold only until more important economies manage to find their feet. And Europe’s problems extend beyond Greece. Fundamentals are so poor across the board that any number of eurozone states quickly could follow Greece down.

And so the rest of the eurozone is watching and waiting nervously while casting occasional glances in the direction of Berlin in hopes the eurozone’s leader and economy-in-chief will do something to make it all go away. To truly understand the depth of the crisis the Europeans face, one must first understand Germany, the only country that can solve it.


Germany’s Trap

The heart of Germany’s problem is that it is insecure and indefensible given its location in the middle of the North European Plain. No natural barriers separate Germany from the neighbors to its east and west, no mountains, deserts, oceans. Germany thus lacks strategic depth. The North European Plain is the Continent’s highway for commerce and conquest. Germany’s position in the center of the plain gives it plenty of commercial opportunities but also forces it to participate vigorously in conflict as both an instigator and victim.

Germany’s exposure and vulnerability thus make it an extremely active power. It is always under the gun, and so its policies reflect a certain desperate hyperactivity. In times of peace, Germany is competing with everyone economically, while in times of war it is fighting everyone. Its only hope for survival lies in brutal efficiencies, which it achieves in industry and warfare.

Pre-1945, Germany’s national goals were simple: Use diplomacy and economic heft to prevent multifront wars, and when those wars seem unavoidable, initiate them at a time and place of Berlin’s choosing.

“Success” for Germany proved hard to come by, because challenges to Germany’s security do not “simply” end with the conquest of both France and Poland. An overstretched Germany must then occupy countries with populations in excess of its own while searching for a way to deal with Russia on land and the United Kingdom on the sea. A secure position has always proved impossible, and no matter how efficient, Germany always has fallen ultimately.

During the early Cold War years, Germany’s neighbors tried a new approach. In part, the European Union and NATO are attempts by Germany’s neighbors to grant Germany security on the theory that if everyone in the immediate neighborhood is part of the same club, Germany won’t need a Wehrmacht.

There are catches, of course — most notably that even a demilitarized Germany still is Germany. Even after its disastrous defeats in the first half of the 20th century, Germany remains Europe’s largest state in terms of population and economic size; the frantic mindset that drove the Germans so hard before 1948 didn’t simply disappear. Instead of German energies being split between growth and defense, a demilitarized Germany could — indeed, it had to — focus all its power on economic development. The result was modern Germany — one of the richest, most technologically and industrially advanced states in human history.


Germany and Modern Europe

That gives Germany an entirely different sort of power from the kind it enjoyed via a potent Wehrmacht, and this was not a power that went unnoticed or unused.

France under Charles de Gaulle realized it could not play at the Great Power table with the United States and Soviet Union. Even without the damage from the war and occupation, France simply lacked the population, economy and geographic placement to compete. But a divided Germany offered France an opportunity. Much of the economic dynamism of France’s rival remained, but under postwar arrangements, Germany essentially saw itself stripped of any opinion on matters of foreign policy. So de Gaulle’s plan was a simple one: use German economic strength as sort of a booster seat to enhance France’s global stature.

This arrangement lasted for the next 60 years. The Germans paid for EU social stability throughout the Cold War, providing the bulk of payments into the EU system and never once being a net beneficiary of EU largesse. When the Cold War ended, Germany shouldered the entire cost of German reunification while maintaining its payments to the European Union. When the time came for the monetary union to form, the deutschemark formed the euro’s bedrock. Many a deutschmark was spent defending the weaker European currencies during the early days of European exchange-rate mechanisms in the early 1990s. Berlin was repaid for its efforts by many soon-to-be eurozone states that purposely enacted policies devaluing their currencies on the eve of admission so as to lock in a competitive advantage vis-à-vis Germany.

But Germany is no longer a passive observer with an open checkbook.

In 2003, the 10-year process of post-Cold War German reunification was completed, and in 2005 Angela Merkel became the first postwar German leader to run a Germany free from the burden of its past sins. Another election in 2009 ended an awkward left-right coalition, and now Germany has a foreign policy neither shackled by internal compromise nor imposed by Germany’s European “partners.”
The Current Crisis

Simply put, Europe faces a financial meltdown.

The crisis is rooted in Europe’s greatest success: the Maastricht Treaty and the monetary union the treaty spawned epitomized by the euro. Everyone participating in the euro won by merging their currencies. Germany received full, direct and currency-risk-free access to the markets of all its euro partners. In the years since, Germany’s brutal efficiency has permitted its exports to increase steadily both as a share of total European consumption and as a share of European exports to the wider world. Conversely, the eurozone’s smaller and/or poorer members gained access to Germany’s low interest rates and high credit rating.

And the last bit is what spawned the current problem.

Most investors assumed that all eurozone economies had the blessing — and if need be, the pocketbook — of the Bundesrepublik. It isn’t difficult to see why. Germany had written large checks for Europe repeatedly in recent memory, including directly intervening in currency markets to prop up its neighbors’ currencies before the euro’s adoption ended the need to coordinate exchange rates. Moreover, an economic union without Germany at its core would have been a pointless exercise.

Investors took a look at the government bonds of Club Med states (a colloquialism for the four European states with a history of relatively spendthrift policies, namely, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece), and decided that they liked what they saw so long as those bonds enjoyed the implicit guarantees of the euro. The term in vogue with investors to discuss European states under stress is PIIGS, short for Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain. While Ireland does have a high budget deficit this year, STRATFOR prefers the term Club Med, as we do not see Ireland as part of the problem group. Unlike the other four states, Ireland repeatedly has demonstrated an ability to tame spending, rationalize its budget and grow its economy without financial skullduggery. In fact, the spread between Irish and German bonds narrowed in the early 1980s before Maastricht was even a gleam in the collective European eye, unlike Club Med, whose spreads did not narrow until Maastricht’s negotiation and ratification.

Even though Europe’s troubled economies never actually obeyed Maastricht’s fiscal rules — Athens was even found out to have falsified statistics to qualify for euro membership — the price to these states of borrowing kept dropping. In fact, one could well argue that the reason Club Med never got its fiscal politics in order was precisely because issuing debt under the euro became cheaper. By 2002 the borrowing costs for Club Med had dropped to within a whisker of those of rock-solid Germany. Years of unmitigated credit binging followed.

The 2008-2009 global recession tightened credit and made investors much more sensitive to national macroeconomic indicators, first in emerging markets of Europe and then in the eurozone. Some investors decided actually to read the EU treaty, where they learned that there is in fact no German bailout at the end of the rainbow, and that Article 104 of the Maastricht Treaty (and Article 21 of the Statute establishing the European Central Bank) actually forbids one explicitly. They further discovered that Greece now boasts a budget deficit and national debt that compares unfavorably with other defaulted states of the past such as Argentina.

Investors now are (belatedly) applying due diligence to investment decisions, and the spread on European bonds — the difference between what German borrowers have to pay versus other borrowers — is widening for the first time since Maastricht’s ratification and doing so with a lethal rapidity. Meanwhile, the European Commission is working to reassure investors that panic is unwarranted, but Athens’ efforts to rein in spending do not inspire confidence. Strikes and other forms of political instability already are providing ample evidence that what weak austerity plans are in place may not be implemented, making additional credit downgrades a foregone conclusion.




Germany’s Choice

As the EU’s largest economy and main architect of the European Central Bank, Germany is where the proverbial buck stops. Germany has a choice to make.

The first option, letting the chips fall where they may, must be tempting to Berlin. After being treated as Europe’s slush fund for 60 years, the Germans must be itching simply to let Greece and others fail. Should the markets truly believe that Germany is not going to ride to the rescue, the spread on Greek debt would expand massively. Remember that despite all the problems in recent weeks, Greek debt currently trades at a spread that is only one-eighth the gap of what it was pre-Maastricht — meaning there is a lot of room for things to get worse. With Greece now facing a budget deficit of at least 9.1 percent in 2010 — and given Greek proclivity to fudge statistics the real figure is probably much worse — any sharp increase in debt servicing costs could push Athens over the brink.

From the perspective of German finances, letting Greece fail would be the financially prudent thing to do. The shock of a Greek default undoubtedly would motivate other European states to get their acts together, budget for steeper borrowing costs and ultimately take their futures into their own hands. But Greece would not be the only default. The rest of Club Med is not all that far behind Greece, and budget deficits have exploded across the European Union. Macroeconomic indicators for France and especially Belgium are in only marginally better shape than those of Spain and Italy.

At this point, one could very well say that by some measures the United States is not far behind the eurozone. The difference is the insatiable global appetite for the U.S. dollar, which despite all the conspiracy theories and conventional wisdom of recent years actually increased during the 2008-2009 global recession. Taken with the dollar’s status as the world’s reserve currency and the fact that the United States controls its own monetary policy, Washington has much more room to maneuver than Europe.

Berlin could at this point very well ask why it should care if Greece and Portugal go under. Greece accounts for just 2.6 percent of eurozone gross domestic product. Furthermore, the crisis is not of Berlin’s making. These states all have been coasting on German largesse for years, if not decades, and isn’t it high time that they were forced to sink or swim?

The problem with that logic is that this crisis also is about the future of Europe and Germany’s place in it. Germany knows that the geopolitical writing is on the wall: As powerful as it is, as an individual country (or even partnered with France), Germany does not approach the power of the United States or China and even that of Brazil or Russia further down the line. Berlin feels its relevance on the world stage slipping, something encapsulated by U.S. President Barack Obama’s recent refusal to meet for the traditional EU-U.S. summit. And it feels its economic weight burdened by the incoherence of the eurozone’s political unity and deepening demographic problems.

The only way for Germany to matter is if Europe as a whole matters. If Germany does the economically prudent (and emotionally satisfying) thing and lets Greece fail, it could force some of the rest of the eurozone to shape up and maybe even make the eurozone better off economically in the long run. But this would come at a cost: It would scuttle the euro as a global currency and the European Union as a global player.

Every state to date that has defaulted on its debt and eventually recovered has done so because it controlled its own monetary policy. These states could engage in various (often unorthodox) methods of stimulating their own recovery. Popular methods include, but are hardly limited to, currency devaluations in an attempt to boost exports and printing currency either to pay off debt or fund spending directly. But Greece and the others in the eurozone surrendered their monetary policy to the European Central Bank when they adopted the euro. Unless these states somehow can change decades of bad behavior in a day, the only way out of economic destitution would be for them to leave the eurozone. In essence, letting Greece fail risks hiving off EU states from the euro. Even if the euro — not to mention the EU — survived the shock and humiliation of monetary partition, the concept of a powerful Europe with a political center would vanish. This is especially so given that the strength of the European Union thus far has been measured by the successes of its rehabilitations — most notably of Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain in the 1980s — where economic-basket case dictatorships and pseudo-democracies transitioned into modern economies.

And this leaves option two: Berlin bails out Athens.

There is no doubt Germany could afford such a bailout, as the Greek economy is only one-tenth of the size of the Germany’s. But the days of no-strings-attached financial assistance from Germany are over. If Germany is going to do this, there will no longer be anything “implied” or “assumed” about German control of the European Central Bank and the eurozone. The control will become reality, and that control will have consequences. For all intents and purposes, Germany will run the fiscal policies of peripheral member states that have proved they are not up to the task of doing so on their own. To accept anything less intrusive would end with Germany becoming responsible for bailing out everyone. After all, who wouldn’t want a condition-free bailout paid for by Germany? And since a euro-wide bailout is beyond Germany’s means, this scenario would end with Germany leading the EU hat-in-hand to the International Monetary Fund for an American/Chinese-funded assistance package. It is possible that the Germans could be gentle and risk such abject humiliation, but it is not likely.

Taking a firmer tack would allow Germany to achieve via the pocketbook what it couldn’t achieve by the sword. But this policy has its own costs. The eurozone as a whole needs to borrow around 2.2 trillion euros in 2010, with Greece needing 53 billion euros simply to make it through the year. Not far behind Greece is Italy, which needs 393 billion euros, Belgium with needs of 89 billion euros and France with needs of yet another 454 billion euros. As such, the premium on Germany is to act — if it is going to act — fast. It needs to get Greece and most likely Portugal wrapped up before crisis of confidence spreads to the really serious countries, where even mighty German’s resources would be overwhelmed.

That is the cost of making Europe “work.” It is also the cost to Germany of leadership that doesn’t come at the end of a gun. So if Germany wants its leadership to mean something outside of Western Europe, it will be forced to pay for that leadership — deeply, repeatedly and very, very soon. But unlike in years past, this time Berlin will want to hold the reins.

[antonio]

I´ve already written the main buyers of the german products. All of them are European countries except USA. Where people gonna buy the advanced german industrial machines? Or their expensive cars? In Uganda or Bolivia?

I understand your point, but don't overestimate PIGS percentage on German industrial profits, at least till we don't put over the table real numbers. Maybe it would be nice to resort to Daimler Benz or Porsche or WAG ones, companies with a well-knowing Spanish customer base. :D


Without the european exports Germany´s economy is death.

I was talking about three countries, not Europe.


I would like to know why you think Germany supports the EU. Because they are boring and they haven´t anything better to do? To annoy the germans? For the lulz?


Well, it's quite obvious and you know it, as obvious as wondering why Indoeuropeans ruled the ancient world...for people like Benz, Porsche, Von Braun,etc... making economical relevant things like cars, motors or missils (among many others persons and things) better than nobody else in the world (when not invented them).


And about our excuse, i thing we have a big one. If we are a poorer country than the rest of west Europe is mainly because we were out of the american Marschall Plan.


Let me counterattack with a good excuse for the plan Marshall: Western Europe suffer two world wars way more devastating (specially on Deutschland crucial economical areas) than Spanish civil war. On the two occasions we profited a nice amount of money as a near neutral country market for the beligerant opponents: for example: galician Wolfram (rare and expensive mineral using for improving resistance on fire-weapons metals) being selled on WW2 to England and Germany concurrently.


As conclusion, I declare Spain has no excuses at all for current crisis...and one blatant agravant circunstance: electoral support on worst and most fundamentalist Leftist parties in Europe...in Catalonia, government coalition integrates even a Green-Red party...in charge of Public Security and Inmigration issues!!!! Isn't it mad or it's just a fucking joke beyond my limited comprehension? :D

[antonio]

I understand your point, but don't overestimate PIGS percentage on German industrial profits, at least till we don't put over the table real numbers. Maybe it would be nice to resort to Daimler Benz or Porsche or WAG ones, companies with a well-knowing Spanish customer base. :D


What if we, Spaniards, finally take what we deserve (not mine nor many others, but were like Lot at Sodoma), what will be the effect on German companies? Here I come with Daimler group 2008 revenues (Amounts in millions of €)

Total 95,873
Western Europe 45,916
...thereof Germany 21,817
NAFTA 21,139
...thereof United States 17,922
Other markets 28,818

So, what if Spain suffer a real economical collapse? Maybe this would be worth for Daimler a 50% less of maybe 5000 millions, hence lowering their total revenues from 95000 to 92500 milions. Well, frankly, I think they can overcome that annoyance. :D

But if Merkel prefers to reward our economical and political "elites" for decades of criminal "second-and-a-half world" misbehaviour let me conclude that it can only come after a sucesion of European Union submits with agendas of intensive brain-washing sessions from the weaker and stupidier and leftiest ones, with Spain as the prominent head of them. Fuck them all, Europe! They/we don't deserve a better fate! Save your hard-earned money to help our common Eastern European brothers in need! :mad:

[Falkata]

Let me counterattack with a good excuse for the plan Marshall: Western Europe suffer two world wars way more devastating (specially on Deutschland crucial economical areas) than Spanish civil war. On the two occasions we profited a nice amount of money as a near neutral country market for the beligerant opponents: for example: galician Wolfram (rare and expensive mineral using for improving resistance on fire-weapons metals) being selled on WW2 to England and Germany concurrently.



Spain was totally destroyed after the civil war , in the 40´s there was even faminess in our country! Germany was fucked too , that´s true, but the west was helped by the USA and the east by the URSS. What about us? We were an island in the middle of nowhere, blocked by the allies and the communists. If Argentina hadn´t help us sending food our people had starved in those years. The looser countries (Italy, Germany, Japan...)were rebuilt by the USA basically and Spain that was almost neutral was ignored and isolated . You can´t pretend compare the numbers of some galicians selling wolfram to the nazis with the millions of $ invested by the Marschall Plan, it´s not serious... The Marschall Plan made the difference, i think it´s quite obvious. Just take a look at the RDA, they didn´t receive the american money and even with the support of the ruskis the country sucked.

[antonio]

Spain was totally destroyed after the civil war , in the 40´s there was even faminess in our country! Germany was fucked too , that´s true, but the west was helped by the USA and the east by the URSS. What about us? We were an island in the middle of nowhere, blocked by the allies and the communists. If Argentina hadn´t help us sending food our people had starved in those years. The looser countries (Italy, Germany, Japan...)were rebuilt by the USA basically and Spain that was almost neutral was ignored and isolated . You can´t pretend compare the numbers of some galicians selling wolfram to the nazis with the millions of $ invested by the Marschall Plan, it´s not serious... The Marschall Plan made the difference, i think it´s quite obvious. Just take a look at the RDA, they didn´t receive the american money and even with the support of the ruskis the country sucked.

Spain before the Civil War was an agriculture-based economy, so, don't compare the devastation suffered over our war with the massive bombing of all the German productive sources from clouds of flying fortress when war u-turned against Reich. If you're interested in methods of destroying an agricultural economy I guess that throwing salt on the cultive fields is a cheaper but effective one: delenda est Carthago,you know. :D

So, this is the main point: German, Italy or Japan has more industry destroyed at hence it takes an expensive amount to reconstruct: money in Spain would be far less productive, although, obviously this was not the cause for not to be helped. At Spain that was after the war was a terrible human collapse (represion from the winners, previous crimes from the losers, mental traumas), which severely impaired our spiritual life and also the economical life, worsened by two things: the stablishment of racionament rations below starving threshold, and fixed prices for human-food items so ridiculous that peasants, after fullfillment of close family and city parents needs -for example my grandfather took the bike regularly to his village miles away of town to illegally enter back in town with some extra food for his family- just with the exception of the flourish black-market, have little if any necessity to produce more to cover such ridicule-priced demand. Yes, what a nice efficient method of supply goods, with efforts centered in hiding them from public authorities!

Pd. Obviously Nation gold reserves stolen by Reds would be of great utility on such critical circunstances, for example, to grant fuel importations, but these were also wrong economics causes based on Phalanx hate on restoring a neutral but wise Capitalist system in order to reward peasants hard-work by let them free pricing their goods (faminess would be reduced by demand/offer law causing increment of production)...hand by hand with extremelly dry periods severely affecting our agriculture.

Family memories were important to this insighful critic of first years Franco regime, but to a lesser extent than "El Mundo" collectible on Postwar Spain, really worths a read, even if it is more left-biased than desirable, at least for my personal taste.

But, as important as food, for a Human being is personal security, and this value on Franco's regime, would be the envy of the world. I cannot imagine a regime ruling an European country (Asia has its own ways) with delincuence being more severely punished...unless all my olders were wrong and fucking Leftists right (one day one of them specially stupid told me that under Franco nobody stealed...cause there's nothing at all to be stolen :lol00002: ) on that matter, which is highly improbable cause I am not from a family of liers as theirs. :mad:


Pd. But were here to talk about Greece. :thumb001:

[Turkophagos]

Greece is spending all of her money guarding the fucking european border, having to deal with eastern barbarians, which makes happy germans when we buy their fucking jets and leopards, and immigration waves that wears her out, while she's stubbed in the back by it's fellow european "allies".


RpuoJjA2qbA


Nothing new, really.

[Groenewolf]

The answer would seem to be…ditch the Euro and go back to monetary independence. Since that would probably start a chain reaction seeing other struggling economies from Portugal to Spain to Italy and Ireland pull out of the Euro as well we can expect to see the Euro elite pull out all the stops to make sure that doesn’t happen.

Interesting times ahead.

In all essence they are already planning (http://www.thedailybell.com/802/EU-Will-Fail-Upwards-Until-it-Really-Fails.html) for it.

[Svanhild]

Greece is spending all of her money guarding the fucking european border, having to deal with eastern barbarians, which makes happy germans when we buy their fucking jets and leopards, and immigration waves that wears her out, while she's stubbed in the back by it's fellow european "allies".
I'm afraid that's not the full truth. The main problem of Greece is the culture of widely spread accepted black labour, corruption, nepotism and boondoggle.

“For all of its natural blessings, Greece is not producing sufficient wealth to repay its obligations. Foreign debt is estimated at € 200 billion. The sudden revelation that the real public deficit has reached 12% of GDP against the previous figure of 6% which was released just three months ago shocked the world markets. Repeated downgrades of its economy followed the news. Obviously, the economy is sick. Finding the correct therapy for a patient requires identifying the disease. In this case, someone may blame it on the world crisis. But frankly, it is not so. The world recession merely exposed and brought to the forefront the real weakness underlying the façade of prosperity.

“At the heart of Greece’s problems stands decades of mismanagement and malinvestment of borrowed funds, including economic assistance from the EU. Responsibility lies with a highly corrupt, unjust and inefficient government sector. This is a well publicized fact buttressed by several relevant statistics. The state operates in a structure much like feudalism. Smaller lordships with special interests operate within a greater feudal kingdom comprising the political parties, with laws and measures made in their favour. This works, naturally, at the expense of the overall society, and therefore the economy.

“On top are the big political parties which oversee a large government sector that encompasses services, industries and the issuance of special licenses to private interests. Feudal lords and the syndicates who actually control them support the government in exchange for special benefits. Within these fiefdoms there are others, and so on, down to the lowest possible level where local governmental authority exists. Nepotism and political favoritism reign supreme.

“If their prerogatives are threatened in any way, the feudal lords curtail services, bringing the economy to a standstill. Any administrator like the newly elected prime minister will be isolated within his own party and boycotted if any serious effort is instigated to check the power of the feudal lords.

“Although the laws in Greece are Draconian for the private person, ministers, members of parliament and public employees are almost never sanctioned. Not one politician or tax officer has been punished for any wrongdoing in 20 or so years. Note that this is happening in the most corrupt nation in Europe, where numerous large scandals occur almost every year.

“Meanwhile, hundreds of civilians are being thrown in jail and their properties confiscated by the state because of relatively minor offenses. Government versus citizen power is extremely unbalanced as far as comparative rights and penalties. Greeks are a talented and ingenious people. Their creativity, however, is dampened by an all-powerful, mortally sick public sector. Mirroring their government’s attitude, citizens find ways to circumvent paying taxes. The public sector’s corruption expands like a cancer, spreading injustice; it contaminates all the healthy cells, perpetuating amorality. Stealing becomes justified as a path to success.

“For Greece to get back on its feet and harness its dynamic potential, this whole mentality must change. Injustices and distortions must be addressed immediately to promote the growth of a healthy economy. One solution would be to establish special investigators and prosecutors to root out public corruption, with amnesty for whistle-blowers.”

http://news.goldseek.com/RickAckerman/1261497569.php

Greece people need to change their entire mentality. Many evade the tax but are the first ones on the street to bar highways, burn flags and cars if the equally corrupt government schedules changes.

If your country had a backbone it would leave the European Monetary Union at once and reintroduce the drachma. By telling the untruth, your country could join the EU and the Monetary Union. That's an inconvenient truth and all Europeans know it now. Don't point a shaking finger at others.

[Tony]

What if this crisis were happened when € still didn't exist?
Greece simply would have devalued its currency (like we Italians were used to do so many times...) , that would have created inflation and inflations is a masked taxation on people , especially low wages workers.

I don't see so much difference...

even if , were I in power I wouldn't lend money to Greece but rather buy some good asset , like the Pireo for example.



I´ve already written the main buyers of the german products. All of them are European countries except USA. Where people gonna buy the advanced german industrial machines? Or their expensive cars? In Uganda or Bolivia? Without the european exports Germany´s economy is death. I would like to know why you think Germany supports the EU. Because they are boring and they haven´t anything better to do? To annoy the germans? For the lulz?

And about our excuse, i thing we have a big one. If we are a poorer country than the rest of west Europe is mainly because we were out of the american Marschall Plan.


Didnt you read what i´ve said or what the fuck? Now they have a bigger market with a common currency and with richer people who can buy their products. Germany economy is totally based in its exports. It was the first country of the world in exports(now the second one after China). France, USA, Belgium, Netherlands, UK, Italy, Spain, Austria and Poland are the main buyers of the german products.

Falkata , Germany's economy is not export based like that of China for instance , the export based economies are those of poor countries who need strong currencies in (example are Italy Spain especially once , now China and that's why China artificially keep low its currency...).

Germany economy from a very long time now has been based on a strong currency that allows its firms , corporations , businessmen/etc to win contracts abroad over other weaker currency based countries , buy assets , energy etc

indeed the export of Germany is mostly intra-European , a strong € (even if it may reach 1.5 or double the $) pretty fits the German economic structure.
It's us southerners (Spain Portugal Italy and Greece) who are less capitalized than Germany that would have needed a weaker currency.
But , as it's been said , then Germany wouldn't have made the Euro...



What interests me is that British tax payers are being asked to pay somewhere in the region of £3 billion to bail out a country in a monetary union that we are not part of.
You've not adopted € yet but Bank of Englad owns about 14,51% of the BCE capital so Bank of England profits from a share of the BCE's seigniorage.
You are in just like those countries who adopted officially the €.

[Falkata]

"Germany is the largest national economy in Europe, the fourth-largest by nominal GDP in the world, and fifth by GDP (PPP) in 2008.[3] Since the age of industrialisation, the country has been a driver, innovator, and beneficiary of an ever more globalised economy. Germany is the world's second largest exporter with $1.170 trillion exported in 2009 (Eurozone countries are included).[4] Exports account for more than one-third of national output.[5]"



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Germany


it´s pretty much based on exports. The difference is that China competes in prices and Germany in quality and technology.

[Svarog]

It's kinda funny to read this thread.

Btw, we in Serbia have a stupid saying for a person that owns a lot "in depth as a Greek", does not translates well but my dad is using it and he says his dad was using it :D

[RoyBatty]

it´s pretty much based on exports. The difference is that China competes in prices and Germany in quality and technology.

That's right. :thumb001:

For specialised industrial equipment and machinery Germany and Japan are probably the top producers. I'll add that the quality of Chinese manufactured products and machinery have been improving significantly. While it's still not as good as the aforementioned and won't be for a while yet, the gap is closing fast and within the next 10 - 15 years they'll probably be very good while still maintaining competitive prices.

[Kadu]

Can't we solve this as our forefather did in ancient times, during the seventies.:D

ur5fGSBsfq8

[Monolith]

Greece simply would have devalued its currency (like we Italians were used to do so many times...) , that would have created inflation and inflations is a masked taxation on people , especially low wages workers.
It's depreciation, not devaluation. ;) That's always a gamble. This depreciation is sometimes used to improve the competitiveness of a country's economy by lowering relative prices of products produced there, in order to boost the GDP by increasing the surplus in the balance of trade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_of_trade), which itself is an integral part of it. Foreigners have to buy your currency if they want to purchase your products, and if your currency is cheaper (depreciated), so are the products. However, the increase of monetary mass (used to devalue the currency) is by no means some magic wand that can magically save the economy in times of downturn. In this particular case, the expectations play a major role, i.e. trade unions' leaders will always include their expectations regarding the inflation in their desired wage. Having that such monetary increase is a public thing, you can expect an increase of average wage as well. This means your competitiveness is back to square one because your production costs have just increased, effectively nullifying the effects of depreciation. Although, Italy can hardly be compared to Greece, due to it's history of numerous depreciations.


You've not adopted € yet but Bank of Englad owns about 14,51% of the BCE capital so Bank of England profits from a share of the BCE's seigniorage.
You are in just like those countries who adopted officially the €.
There's a significant difference. British authorities have kept the right to pursue a separate monetary policy, and can still depreciate and appreciate their currency whenever it fits their interests.

e.g. pound sterling vs. US dollar:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/6/1/1243872963230/pound-dollar_2.png

[Agrippa]

Fact is many financial problems in companies and countries will pop up now, because of the general economic crisis the banks produce. Obviously, the problems were in many cases, like that of Greece, there before too and it was substantial, as was the fraud of the European institutions by the Greek government.

But it were the US and US-plutocratic banks like Goldman-Sachs & Co. which made it possible! The same banks and corrupted institutions which caused the biggest financial and economic worldwide crisis since the 2nd World War and were paid and bailed out by the people worldwide! Did we forget that? We shouldnt!

Why did they do that? Why does the "European Union" look like that, being more of a "politically correct", hypocritical Union of corporations, the banks and menials of the plutocrats rather than a Union of the European people?

The problem is deeply rooted in the system as such and the European Union degenerated, if it was something different at any time at all, to an instrument of political, economic and social control of the European people by the Plutocratic Oligarchy, the Banks and Corporations.

If anybody thinks corruption and mismanagement being only a Greek problem, damned in what world is he or she living?

The only reason why Germany for example is better off is that it has various advantages and was build up over many generations to become what it is.

Germany is that relatively wealthy and economically still relatively productive and well off, not because of its current political leadership or political system, but in spite of it!

We live, culturally, socially, economically, biologically etc. from what we achieved in the past, what we accumulated over thousands of years and now its being used up, thats the real German tragedy.

The "European" Union is just part of a greater scheme of political and economic control, social engineering and re-education of the German people, but not just the Germans, but all of Europe and finally the world, its about the power and profits of the Plutocratic Oligarchy.

What will happen in Greece? In Europe? More depts, radical "reforms" and programs which go in the direction of what the Plutocrats want to see in their kind of Liberalcapitalism.

Greece will become the first total slave and others will have to pay for their slavery, just to follow later.

Mass immigration of non-integrable foreigners is just one aspect, one important symptome of a much more serious and bigger disease, caused by the Plutocratic Oligarchy and their form of Liberalcapitalism.

They make up crisis and problems, just to take the power and wealth, all the cash and let others pay on various levels, not just with money they control too, but also with freedom, social security and personal dignity etc.

What do we have to uncover before the people wake up and see the true master criminals behind the curtain!


Goldman Sachs: the Greek connection

Goldman Sachs has been the most important of more than a dozen banks used by the Greek government to manage its national debt using derivatives.

The bank's traders created a number of financial deals that allowed the country to raise money to cut its budget deficit now, in return for repayments over time or at a later date.

In one deal, Goldman channelled $1bn of funding to the government in 2002, in a transaction called a cross-currency swap. There is no suggestion of any wrong-doing by Goldman Sachs. Such deals are an expensive way of raising money, but they have the advantage of not having to be accounted for as debt.

and


President Barack Obama last month launched an assault on Wall Street, proposing to cap the size of the biggest US banks and clamp down on their trading activities. On the same day, Goldman began distributing nearly £10bn in pay and bonuses to its staff for their 2009 performance, just a year after the financial system was bailed out by governments.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/goldman-sachs-the-greek-connection-1899527.html

Those who know your secrets you must pay the best, to ensure them that they are secure and on a high social level, under your protection. Just imagine some of them would begin to talk openly about the real practises and strategies - I mean those of the upper management. Its bad enough in normal companies, but one thing is for sure, those "house banks" of the plutocrats have many skeletons in the closet and thats for sure. They can't kill them all if necessary or sue them successfully, so they pay them as good as possible for keeping their mouth shut at least and getting the best corrupted souls they can buy for money.



And how could the Germans forget the billions and billions they already paid to the banks! We paid that for nothing, for the corrupted banks and their menials here and especially on the other side of the Atlantic!

Get the bankers! Dont let them enslave us!

Greece already spend freely a lot of its "silver-plates" in a desperate trial to stay independent and on track, but it didnt work out, like it didnt with so many house owners in the USA and elsewhere, so many small companies in Germany and elsewhere. Now the bank has it, but the debts are still there and still growing.

To what did a debt which can't be paid back lead? To slavery, exactly!

In the end only a complete reform of the financial system and debt relief with a monetary reform can save us, not just Greece, but all of Europe and the world, from becoming completely enslaved.