Should We Clone Neanderthals?

[Liffrea]

If Neanderthals ever walk the earth again, the primordial ooze from which they will rise is an emulsion of oil, water, and DNA capture beads engineered in the laboratory of 454 Life Sciences in Branford, Connecticut. Over the past 4 years those beads have been gathering tiny fragments of DNA from samples of dissolved organic materials, including pieces of Neanderthal bone. Genetic sequences have given paleoanthropologists a new line of evidence for testing ideas about the biology of our closest extinct relative.

http://www.archaeology.org/1003/etc/neanderthals.html

[Eldritch]

Yes.

[Pallantides]

Yes.

[Radojica]

Should We Clone Neanderthals?

What for? Just to see them going extinct again because of us, über humans?

I would rather see clones of dinosaurs.

They would be harder to make go extinct...

[Kadu]

I think that question is within the sphere of discussion regarding Human cloning, as Neanderthals were as Human* as the Homo Sapiens is.
But if so, why not cloning Rick Astley too?


*
Humans have a highly developed brain, capable of abstract reasoning, language, introspection, and problem solving.

Humans are noted for their desire to understand and influence their environment, seeking to explain and manipulate natural phenomena through science, philosophy, mythology and religion. This natural curiosity has led to the development of advanced tools and skills, which are passed down culturally; humans are the only species known to build fires, cook their food, clothe themselves, and use numerous other technologies.

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human)

[Arne]

And next time...
Should we clone Hitler ? ;)

It´s a difficult Question.
What can we expect from Cloning him ?
He´s miles away from the Current Humans in the Evolutional Way.

I say No for cloning him and even say no to clone Hitler.

[Monolith]

I think that question is within the sphere of discussion regarding Human cloning, as Neanderthals were as Human* as the Homo Sapiens is.
Indeed, the Neanderthals weren't animals. Why should they be brought back to life? Only to be used as lab specimens?

[Kadu]

I say No for cloning him and even say no to clone Hitler.

That's such a ghey idea! i would clone Diane Kruger instead.

[antonio]

Of course not, cause it would yield to 2 equally unethical alternatives:
1) Let him alone as a "mono de feria"/"fair monkey"....just think on this poor soul and his innermost feelings. It's sick.
2) Clone more in order to generate a second-division human beings...no way! With the Homo Sapiens race disimilarities I think we had enough. How many years before that race, with impaired abstract knowledge capabilities, till issuing us, White cromagnoids, for Interspecies Job Discrimination? I repeat: we have enough of this shit to add another, bigger one.

But don't worry: now, 12th of February of 2010, I predict that in 2110 supercomputers would be able to render a virtual man from digitalized ADN material...see you all there! :wavey001:

[Cail]

Cloning at least several individuals would give us answers to countless questions, potentially leading to breakthroughs in various areas of science. How intelligent were they? What kind of speech were they capable of? Did they possess some abilities that we are not aware of? Was the hybridization (Sapiens+Neanderthal) possible? Are their behavioral and cognitive patterns same, or different from ours? How do two different intelligent species perceive each other, what are possible ways of interaction (Neanderthals are our close relatives, of course, but still the experience is of value, given the possibility/perspective of contacts with other intelligent species in the Galaxy). Et cetera et cetera, possibilities are countless, the scientific value of that event would be of unimaginable proportions. Yes, yes and yes.

[Anthropos]

No. The results are unpredictable, and like others have pointed out, what good could it possibly do? It is not a good argument that it will answer 'questions' that we do not need to raise in the first place.

[Allenson]

Tough question to answer but I'd surely be paying close attention to the affair if it were done.

One of my favorite Neanderthal reconstructions:

http://einsteinagogo.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/red_haired_neanderthal.jpg

[Kadu]

Et cetera et cetera, possibilities are countless, the scientific value of that event would be of unimaginable proportions. Yes, yes and yes.

Yes, but you cannot create Human life for the sole purpose of scientific investigation. An individual may take part in a scientific investigation and serve as an object of study but creating it to become the object of such and solely that a priori interferes with the very essence of the meaning of life, and that is beyond us, to interfer, with such matters as we are talking about another pair, another Man, equal to us.

[Loki]

But if so, why not cloning Rick Astley too?


Because he looks gay.

[antonio]

Cloning at least several individuals would give us answers to countless questions, potentially leading to breakthroughs in various areas of science. How intelligent were they? What kind of speech were they capable of? Did they possess some abilities that we are not aware of? Was the hybridization (Sapiens+Neanderthal) possible? Are their behavioral and cognitive patterns same, or different from ours? How do two different intelligent species perceive each other, what are possible ways of interaction (Neanderthals are our close relatives, of course, but still the experience is of value, given the possibility/perspective of contacts with other intelligent species in the Galaxy). Et cetera et cetera, possibilities are countless, the scientific value of that event would be of unimaginable proportions. Yes, yes and yes.

You know that every animal has a strange unnatural behaviour when keeped at captivity: for example, they refrain themselves from copule and hence reproduction. These would be humans, but I'm afraid of similar patterns: imagine a Cromagnoid like us being raised up by aliens: where's his original culture from his Cromagnoid parents and Sociohistorical context?
Neanderthal as speech capable people, why not? But this question would be equally answered by DNA comparison. And nothing would be elicited from their speeches: cause they're though our XXI century idioms.

My conclusion is that Neanderthalensis would be a rough featured people
http://www.ligafutbol.net/wp-content/2009/01/carles_puyol.jpg
with mental capabilities varying as function of culture from adoptive families. So what?

[Kadu]

imagine a Cromagnoid like us being

Sorry for being picky but i would just like to underline that Modern Europeans and Cro-Magnoids are not same thing


Populations of anatomically archaic (Neandertal) and early modern (Cro-Magnoid) humans are jointly documented in the European fossil record, in the period between 40 000 and 25 000 years BP, but the large differences between their cultures, morphologies and DNAs suggest that the two groups were not close relatives. However, it is still unclear whether any genealogical continuity between them can be ruled out. Here, we simulated a broad range of demographic scenarios by means of a serial coalescence algorithm in which Neandertals, Cro-Magnoids and modern Europeans were either part of the same mitochondrial genealogy or of two separate genealogies. Mutation rates, population sizes, population structure and demographic growth rates varied across simulations. All models in which anatomically modern (that is, Cro-Magnoid and current) Europeans belong to a distinct genealogy performed better than any model in which the three groups were assigned to the same mitochondrial genealogy. The maximum admissible level of gene flow between Neandertals and the ancestors of current Europeans is 0.001% per generation, one order of magnitude lower than estimated in previous studies not considering genetic data on Cro-Magnoid people.

Comparing models on the genealogical relationships among Neandertal, Cro-Magnoid and modern Europeans by serial coalescent simulations (http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v102/n3/abs/hdy2008103a.html)

[Liffrea]

Hmmm what's Osweo then?:D:p

[Kadu]

Hmmm what's Osweo then?:D:p

Ask J. K. Rowling, she created him.:D

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/Kadu_album/hagrid3.jpg

[Wulfhere]

What could cloning a Neanderthal possibly tell us about their culture, their beliefs or their language (other than what sounds it might have contained)? The individual(s) in question - fully human but not one of us - would be in an invidious position in our society. I think they're too like us, and yet not us, for it to be ethical. They represent our lost sibling, whom we will never know.

[Liffrea]

Personally I say no.

[Cail]

Apart from things i've already mentioned, imagine, for example, a possibility that Neanderthals can be immune to some Sapiens' diseases, or otherwise superior to us in some aspects, and these traits can be transfered to us via gene engineering (much like in other gene-modified species produced by science) or hybridization.

They might even be superior to us intellectually (at least their brain was larger, which in hominids is correlated to intelligence).

[antonio]

Apart from things i've already mentioned, imagine, for example, a possibility that Neanderthals can be immune to some Sapiens' diseases, or otherwise superior to us in some aspects, and these traits can be transfered to us via gene engineering (much like in other gene-modified species produced by science) or hybridization.

They might even be superior to us intellectually (at least their brain was larger, which in hominids is correlated to intelligence).

I swear I've not conditioned at all against those good and friendly people:thumb001:, members of our same European brotherhood, it's simply that I'm wondering about their mental sanity in advance. Maybe they would resort to a kind of bad hippy subculture, every day high on cannabis or alcohol, so unfair. Maybe like Australian natives, a nice ancient culture so badly drowning with dignity losing by means of fucking cultural clash against a superior one.

[The Khagan]

Superior culture? uhhh...

I'm for it, for the sake of science. It could teach us invaluable things about our own species and Hominids as a whole.

[Cail]

I swear I've not conditioned at all against those good and friendly people:thumb001:, members of our same European brotherhood, it's simply that I'm wondering about their mental sanity in advance. Maybe they would resort to a kind of bad hippy subculture, every day high on cannabis or alcohol, so unfair. Maybe like Australian natives, a nice ancient culture so badly drowning with dignity losing by means of fucking cultural clash against a superior one.

Neanderthal and Aborigine comparison is not valid. Neanderthals were less evolutionary or culturally competitive than modern humans, but that doesn't mean that they were necessarily dumber than us. For example, modern Muslims seem to be more adept in demographic war than modern Europeans, but that doesn't mean that their culture is superior or that they're smarter (quite the opposite actually). So being outcompeted by Sapienses doesn't mean Neanderthals couldn't be superior to us in some ways.

Neanderthals could as well die out just by random chance, we do not know that.

[Poltergeist]

Should We Clone Neanderthals?

What for? There are plenty, too many of them around already.

[antonio]

Superior culture? uhhh...

I'm not an expert on precolonized Australia neither a politically-correct citizen, maybe for these reasons (especially the last of them) I have no doubt that their nice civilization ranks far below our Indoeuropean/Mediterranean one. :thumb001:


I'm for it, for the sake of science. It could teach us invaluable things about our own species and Hominids as a whole.


If the sake of science is many scientifics in every developed country around the world (psychobiologists, paleontologists...) making a good living on that matter at pauper public budget, the answer is yes. But in Spain, I think it's suffice with the black hole of Atapuerca's. Pity, it would be a nice amount of money to be invested at biomedical investigation.

Pd. And when all the misteries of the physical world were discovered and outer-space colonized , we'll have a nice amount of million years to turn our microscopes back to this guy's DNA. :thumbs up

[Poltergeist]

No. The results are unpredictable, and like others have pointed out, what good could it possibly do? It is not a good argument that it will answer 'questions' that we do not need to raise in the first place.

...and it's impossible anyway, just like the colonization of Mars, so not even worth serious discussion.

[Amapola]

No.

[Anthropos]

...and it's impossible anyway, just like the colonization of Mars, so not even worth serious discussion.

I also think that it is impossible for us to create human life. It may be possible to animate human-like creatures, even so much alike that outwardly they would look just like humans, but that is not to say that human is what they will be, and neither of course that it should be recommended to try it.

[Poltergeist]

I also think that it is impossible for us to create human life. It may be possible to animate human-like creatures, even so much alike that outwardly they would look just like humans, but that is not to say that human is what they will be, and neither of course that it should be recommended to try it.

You mean, some kind of "animated robots"? But I don't see how they could be animated in the first place.

[Amapola]

If we cloned a Nean., the shock "of seeing what we are doing here" would kill him.

[Jamt]

What for? Plenty of Yugos around.

[antonio]

If we cloned a Nean., the shock "of seeing what we are doing here with him" would kill him.

:thumb001:

For me, its like take a newborn child and make experiments on his Education to the "sake of science", for example: "what about to recreate Conan the barbarian childhood using a lost tribu to ambient it?" ,"Oh, yeah, what a great film, and we can also add anabolizants on his diet from an early age to increase the effect""and let him to adore ancient sanguinarious idols". Yes, it would be a nice case of study, we can learn a lot from bringing into reality such a ruthless warrior, but, it would be still unfair...if not dangerous. :D

[Radojica]

What for? Plenty of Yugos around.

Are you just stupid, or trying to be funny?

[Jamt]

Are you just stupid, or trying to be funny?

The amount of Yugo Neanderthal is staggering you know.

[Radojica]

The amount of Yugo Neanderthal is staggering you know.

Really? Ohh, I see, you found a mirror ;)

[antonio]

Maybe Spanish people are not Europids at all as we don't understand a single Slavic vs Nordic joke at all. And know nothing about their origins or primary causes. :thumb001:

[Stefan]

It depends on the benefits, and how much defects and freedom this Neanderthal would have, all this considering if it were to need these freedoms. If they were allowed to live a rewarding life while being tested on then maybe as the benefits to everybody could be considered. This is especially so if more than one is created, allowing a relativity to their own kind. Though I don't think there should be a rebirth of Neanderthals, just a small segmented population. Either way, there are so many walls blocking this kind of cloning that it won't happen anytime soon. The most interesting achievement would to obtain the knowledge on its thought process. Would it be able to live as a normal human mental wise? Would it be able to learn math, to read, human language? That is the most intriguing and it is so intriguing that I can't help to say yes to this question, though of course cautiously.

[antonio]

The most interesting achievement would to obtain the knowledge on its thought process.


So let me suggest you another interesting and similar but far cheaper experiment: promote me as CERN or INRIA chief investigator...just to obtain knowledge from my though process...and, BTW, to help me improve a little my poor curriculum. :D


Would it be able to learn math, to read, human language? That is the most intriguing and it is so intriguing that I can't help to say yes to this question, though of course cautiously.


I would say a loud yes on it. First, because I do believe they would can, in fact "why not" would be a more accurate question. Second, to save the money of such an expensive and knowledge-esterile experiment. It reminds me of another men journey to the Moon. Can we nowadays come back to it? Of course, we'd reach it before with inferior technology...although we cannot know it for sure till we actually come back again. :D

[Troll's Puzzle]

I think yes

but it will happen anyway, and what happens next depend on who colons him first.

if americans, the cloing will be funded by the porn industry, who will hope to make profits using him in freakshow movies. (it's the american way)
this wil also anser whether neander/humans are fertile.

if chinese, they will clone 10000000's of them (but kill all the females, to use as food), and send them to the mines.

if europeans, he will become a star in art-house movies. playing the 'tormented last of his kind' and the 'natural, noble savage' vs. the evil technical white scientists who made him. he will deliver a monologue (of grunts) on his pligth as an inauthentic being out of time. a singlel drop from his human (or is it?) eye, raising questions of what it is to be hunam and emote. Monica Belluci will start crying and hug hum. movie ends. french audience cheers and sobs. wins cannes prize. :popcorn:

[Octothorpe]

Well, to be honest, my attitude toward cloning would put your average mad-scientist to shame--clone the buggers! Clone everything you can, just to see what would happen. After all, didn't Chairman Mao once say, 'there is great chaos under heaven, and the situation is excellent?" :p

[Guapo]

Yes, Maybe they could sell auto insurance.

[Ibericus]

The problem would be that we would base all the Neanderthal knowledge only on one individual. Imagine this cloned Nean is retarded, we would think they were all retarded ??

[Stefan]

The problem would be that we would base all the Neanderthal knowledge only on one individual. Imagine this cloned Nean is retarded, we would think they were all retarded ??

Then clone more than one.

Edit: By that I mean find a different sample of dna to replace that causing the issues. If it were to be a genetic problem.

[Majar]

Yes, but only if they are given rights and treated well. They are too much like us to be treated like caged research chimpanzees or something.

Would you adopt a Neanderthal baby? Would you date a Neanderthal? As they are native to Europe would it be considered miscegenation to date a Neanderthal? After they have been studied, what would they do with their lives? How would they cope with the modern world?

:icon_ask:

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

I can't speak for women who like rugged features, but a Neanderthal girl... not sure if I'd try lol

http://thedefaultposition.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/neanderthal.jpg

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/neanderthal.woman.2.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/kestegem/neanderthal_woman.jpg

[Poltergeist]

I can't speak for women who like rugged features, but a Neanderthal girl... not sure if I'd try lol

http://thedefaultposition.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/neanderthal.jpg

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/neanderthal.woman.2.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/kestegem/neanderthal_woman.jpg

Ah, the fantasy does wonders. I mean, this kind of arbitrary reconstructions. You find a piece of something resembling human skull and, several hundred meters away, you come across something that might be the remnant of a human bone and...bingo! Immediately pictures are made of how those people looked like, entire elaborate theories enounced etc. Not referring to reconstructions of Neanderthals, but to matters like this in general.


Yes, but only if they are given rights and treated well. They are too much like us to be treated like caged research chimpanzees or something.

Would you adopt a Neanderthal baby? Would you date a Neanderthal? As they are native to Europe would it be considered miscegenation to date a Neanderthal? After they have been studied, what would they do with their lives? How would they cope with the modern world?

:icon_ask:

Yes, first one has to determine if they belong to teh genetic Europe. If they do, then this knowledge could give new incentive to an all-European indigenist movement based on racial-genetic arguments. Much better than Paleeolithic continuity theories. Because they lived much earlier.

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

Ah, the fantasy does wonders. I mean, this kind of arbitrary reconstructions. You find a piece of something resembling human skull and, several hundred meters away, you come across something that might have be the remnant of a human bone and...bingo! Immediately pictures are made of how those people looked like, entire elaborate theories enounced etc. Not referring to reconstructions of Neanderthals, but to matters like this in general.


Well imagine the pigmentation you wish, but you can't turn e.g. a Nordid or Mediterranid face out of a Neanderthal skull.

http://www.dappercadaver.com/images/neanderthal%20skull%20$250.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

I can't speak for women who like rugged features, but a Neanderthal girl... not sure if I'd try lol







Just put a brown bag on her head while you're doing your stuff with her -- problem solved. ;)

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

Just put a brown bag on her head while you're doing your stuff with her -- problem solved. ;)

I know an even cheaper trick for that matter, and that's apparently what prehistoric men mostly practiced (and modern women still invariably like lol).

[Svanhild]

I can't speak for women who like rugged features, but a Neanderthal girl... not sure if I'd try lol

http://thedefaultposition.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/neanderthal.jpg

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/neanderthal.woman.2.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/kestegem/neanderthal_woman.jpg

There's worse living on our planet. Right now. :wink

http://www.worldproutassembly.org/images/aborigines_5.jpg
http://www.outbackphoto.com/nature/2001/australia_1/Aboriginals.jpg

I'm sure you would date the neanderthal girl below if you had to pick one of the two types, Aborigines and Neanderthals, with a loaded gun at your head. :cool:

http://mnfu.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/neanderthal1.jpg

[Crux]

http://mnfu.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/neanderthal1.jpg

I'd bone that even if no one would force me to :D

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

There's worse living on our planet. Right now. :wink

http://www.worldproutassembly.org/images/aborigines_5.jpg
http://www.outbackphoto.com/nature/2001/australia_1/Aboriginals.jpg

I'm sure you would date the neanderthal girl below if you had to pick one of the two types, Aborigines and Neanderthals, with a loaded gun at your head. :cool:


That's why I feel sorry for British convicts in early Australia lol

[Bari]

My curiosity says yes, but on the whole i am a bit unsure about it.

One thing is cloning mammoths(would be awesome), but a Neanderthal becomes different(for obvious reasons). Their culture and language cannot be retrieved. So are scientists going to raise a bunch of well-spoken neanderthals to see how well they integrate into modern human society? Could they be given a decent life? Would they be given a sort of habitat area? I cannot really picture a neanderthal living as a outcast in modern/present society, constantly being stared at/discriminated against would be happy. It surely is a interesting thought, but possible consequenses/failure makes me more of a sceptic than supportive of it. I don't think society today would be ready to deal with them in a proper way.

[Bari]

I can't speak for women who like rugged features, but a Neanderthal girl... not sure if I'd try lol

http://thedefaultposition.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/neanderthal.jpg

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/neanderthal.woman.2.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/kestegem/neanderthal_woman.jpg

- Never say never;)

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5981/beergoggles3.jpg

[Tabiti]

No, we have enough primitive people now;)

[anonymaus]

This isn't the lounge; cut out the low brow nonsense or post counts will start rolling in the other direction.

[Monolith]

There's a reason why they're dead.

[Heimmacht]

Yes! Think of all the interesting breeding possibilities :P.

[Matritensis]

You are all talking like cloning a Neanderthal would be the easiest thing in the world...it won't happen.

[Bridie]

I believe that cloning is unacceptable, fullstop.

[Albion]

We manage the earth as if it were our private garden, but this act of playing god would take it too far.
The problem with scientists is they just don't know when to stop, always so eager in their quest for knowledge. Its like that with nukes, wasn't it enough that we could annihilate each other with the things we had, but no, scientists had to take it dangerously further and invent a bomb which could destroy cities.

What's next, the dinosaurs, genetically engineering humans? Science is going too far, we need to know our limits and keep ethics and plain common sense in mind. Instead of wasting time trying to bring back the neanderthals they should be thinking about solving global warming, curing cancer, finding a way to stop viruses from evolving and changing (which would allow us to cure many virus diseases) and finding ways we can make energy without screwing up the earth!
Neanderthals survive in part in the genes of Europeans and are extinct in pure form, stuff happens.