Do Platonic Forms exist?

[Herr Abubu]

Vote and discuss.

[Illancha]

Yes, but I think you must have already known where my vote would go.

[Herr Abubu]

Yes, but I think you must have already known where my vote would go.

I think too highly of you to be able to think otherwise.

[arcticwolf]

Yes they do. I know people who are addicted to the feeling, and not a person. Take being in love as an example, it's an exhilarating feeling, makes life take on richness, and depth otherwise unattainable, without very hard spiritual work. As everything in nature being in love with a particular person will end. When that happens as it must, those who crave the feeling, they put an all out effort to find it again. It's not a particular person they are looking for, it's the feeling they really crave. Person is just a medium through which they get what they really pine for. Though they themselves maybe unaware of the mechanisms how it really works.

So hell yeah, the platonic is the real reason, even if it never enters the conscious.

Good topic bro, watch it, you may earn yourself an opinion of a bit eccentric!, even smart, be careful what you wish for! :laugh:

[Dellingr]

Yes, proven quite simply with the syllogism:

If you know what you’re looking for, inquiry is unnecessary.
If you don’t know what you’re looking for, inquiry is impossible.
Therefore, inquiry is either unnecessary or impossible.

Conclusion: Either you know what you’re looking for or you don’t know what you’re looking for. If there is a set of things all of which have the same “name,” then there has to exist a Form for that set.

[wvwvw]

What the hell is platonic form? ;)

[Herr Abubu]

Yes, proven quite simply with the syllogism:

If you know what you’re looking for, inquiry is unnecessary.
If you don’t know what you’re looking for, inquiry is impossible.
Therefore, inquiry is either unnecessary or impossible.

Conclusion: Either you know what you’re looking for or you don’t know what you’re looking for. If there is a set of things all of which have the same “name,” then there has to exist a Form for that set.

There is either knowledge we know intrinsically without justification or all knowledge depends on independent justification. If all knowledge depends on independent justification, it is necessary to justify it through logical argument (conclusions must be deducted from premises). We then have a logical system to justify knowledge. But how do we prove the premises? If we try prove them within the logical system itself, we are using our premises to prove our premises, i.e., circular reasoning, which proves nothing. If we try to prove our logical system of justification with other logical systems, we must then prove the premises of that logical system through another logical system, which then has to be proven outside of itself, and so on ad infinitum. So if we try to justify the logical system by itself, it is circular; if we try to justify the logical system through other logical systems, we get an infinite regress of justification (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem.) Therefore, since the latter alternative is without doubt false, the former alternative, that there is knowledge we can know intrinsically without justification, must be true.

[Svipdag]

It depends on the sense in which the verb "exist" is used . They exist as abstractions, in the same way that all categories exist. The position has been taken and defended that categories per se do not exist; only the things categorised exist. The Nominalist position is that the category , is but a name applied for convenience to things which have some characteristic(s) in common.

There is, however, a mystique to the Platonic Universals. Plato ascribes to them a causal function when he states that "Universalia sunt ante rem." The Universal (or Form) fills the role of the Formal Cause. The mystique arises from confusing two different types of cause.
Today, we use the word :"cause" to mean only one of Plato's 4 types of cause: the efficient cause, ignoring the formal, material, and final causes. If cause must precede effect, then the formal cause, inter alia, must precede the thing, its effect.

If the Universal (or Form) must precede any example of it, and if it is taken to be the efficient cause, (which Plato did NOT say) the Universal must be imbued with creative power . This would require it to be some kind of powerful pre-existing entity which creates things.
The Form is a sine qua non for the Thing to exist, but it need not be, nor does Plato claim that it is, efficient in bringing about the Thing.

So, in the abstract sense that sphericity exists whether or not any spheres exist , the Form exists, but it does not create spheres.

[arcticwolf]

There is either knowledge we know intrinsically without justification or all knowledge depends on independent justification. If all knowledge depends on independent justification, it is necessary to justify it through logical argument (conclusions must be deducted from premises). We then have a logical system to justify knowledge. But how do we prove the premises? If we try prove them within the logical system itself, we are using our premises to prove our premises, i.e., circular reasoning, which proves nothing. If we try to prove our logical system of justification with other logical systems, we must then prove the premises of that logical system through another logical system, which then has to be proven outside of itself, and so on ad infinitum. So if we try to justify the logical system by itself, it is circular; if we try to justify the logical system through other logical systems, we get an infinite regress of justification (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem.) Therefore, since the latter alternative is without doubt false, the former alternative, that there is knowledge we can know intrinsically without justification, must be true.

Man this is hard to follow, but every Buddhist at kindergarten level knows this empirically. :P

You might be getting ready to do some real meditating. For those mystified, and threatened by the term, it's mindful observation of reality, no theories, no conclusions, or scheming, just watching reality mindfully.

Man can learn much just by observing.

You think you are ready?

[Herr Abubu]

Man this is hard to follow, but every Buddhist at kindergarten level knows this empirically. :P

You could say the knowledge of Platonic Forms is intrinsic itself. One can really just be one and nothing else, whether we say that one doesn't mean one, that it means rock instead, because the meaning of one exists nonetheless.


You might be getting ready to do some real meditating. For those mystified, and threatened by the term, it's mindful observation of reality, no theories, no conclusions, or scheming, just watching reality mindfully.

Man can learn much just by observing.

You think you are ready?

I meditate every day for 20 minutes, so I do personally know of its effects and benefits to some degree. But I'll listen to anyone whose experience and knowledge transcends my own as greatly as I suspect is the case with you. Initiate me, take me under your paws, o wise wolf.

[arcticwolf]

You could say the knowledge of Platonic Forms is intrinsic itself. One can really just be one and nothing else, whether we say that one doesn't mean one, that it means rock instead, because the meaning of one exists nonetheless.



I meditate every day for 20 minutes, so I do personally know of its effects and benefits to some degree. But I'll listen to anyone whose experience and knowledge transcends my own as greatly as I suspect is the case with you. Initiate me, take me under your paws, o wise wolf.

You are a wise man brother.
I hope I can shed some light on the process itself. Meditation is not really sitting down and looking all peaceful and shit, it's all about the action between the ears, but you already know that. Sitting down montioneless is the easiest way to meditate, and good way to hone the basic skills, but not a goal in itself as you know. The main mistake people make, that slows down their progress is the transition from sitting meditation, to the rest of the day. What is most beneficial is the effort to try to carry over the state of mind meditation puts mind in to other activities one normally does. You can meditate brushing your teeth, taking out the trash, etc. Your mind will wonder to daydreaming, planning, scheming etc, but mindfulness can bring it back, that's why mindfulness is all important in meditation.

What you can try brother is meditation in motion, 10 minutes a session, once or twice a day, walking meditation, it will develop your mindfulness once you are in motion, it will help you transition from sitting meditation to the rest of your day mindfully.

If you don't mind me asking, what meditation do you do? Yoga, Buddhist, western style contemplation?

[Unome]

Yes and it's called 'Geometry'.

[Herr Abubu]

You are a wise man brother.
I hope I can shed some light on the process itself. Meditation is not really sitting down and looking all peaceful and shit, it's all about the action between the ears, but you already know that. Sitting down montioneless is the easiest way to meditate, and good way to hone the basic skills, but not a goal in itself as you know. The main mistake people make, that slows down their progress is the transition from sitting meditation, to the rest of the day. What is most beneficial is the effort to try to carry over the state of mind meditation puts mind in to other activities one normally does. You can meditate brushing your teeth, taking out the trash, etc. Your mind will wonder to daydreaming, planning, scheming etc, but mindfulness can bring it back, that's why mindfulness is all important in meditation.

What you can try brother is meditation in motion, 10 minutes a session, once or twice a day, walking meditation, it will develop your mindfulness once you are in motion, it will help you transition from sitting meditation to the rest of your day mindfully.

I shall do this. Thanks for the advice, brother


If you don't mind me asking, what meditation do you do? Yoga, Buddhist, western style contemplation?

Sit on your butt, shut your eyes and mouth and meditate-style meditation. :P

[Illancha]

I think too highly of you to be able to think otherwise.
Poor thing my ego... it's getting stroked and yet remains completely tame.

[arcticwolf]

I shall do this. Thanks for the advice, brother

Sit on your butt, shut your eyes and mouth and meditate-style meditation. :P

No shame in this. What you have is determination, & effort, those two are absolutely crucial. All you need is a few tips to save you time, or make the process more efficient.

As I am at the Crossroads, and must move on, I am gonna leave you with this, read "Mindfulness in Plain English", it's a guide to Vipassana aka insight meditation. This kind of meditation will take you to the very end of the journey. The book is free to download from the net, it was written by a Sri Lankan sage, best of its kind, written in a way so anyone can understand it. If you not ready for it yet, just keep it in mind, and use it when you are.

The process of meditation is described in this book, from all its aspects, sitting meditation, walking meditation, what to do, and how to do it, how to deal with distractions, all of it. You need no other manual to master meditation, but this one.

Brother, best of luck and much success on the path.

Wolf, has to do what wolves have to do.

Remember, it's better to be alone than in a company of fools! Be an island onto youself, look for enlightenment not to external sources, you've got all you need between your ears.

And parting wisdom from the enlightened one himself: put no head above your own! Sayonara brother! :thumb001:

[arcticwolf]

Dup

[Herr Abubu]

Judging by the poll of this thread, too, people on this forum, or at least those who voted or simply agreed but forgot to vote, are metaphysically very noble.

[Illancha]

Judging by the poll of this thread, too, people on this forum, or at least those who voted or simply agreed but forgot to vote, are metaphysically very noble.
I, for one, think it's more indicative of this:


What the hell is platonic form? ;)

[Unome]

What the hell is platonic form? ;)
All ideas are platonic forms.