Eurogenes K13 chart for Italians and Greeks, all results acquired so far.

[Sikeliot]

I have a few more to add though once Gedmatch is up again.

Observations:

1) People from Lazio are hardly different to those from far southern Italy
2) Greeks score, interestingly, as much if not slightly more North Atlantic than do central-southern Italians, and higher Baltic
3) West Med scores are more or less the same in all of these groups
4) West Asian (Caucasus) is slightly higher in Greeks
5) East Med is highest in Campania and Sicily
6) Red Sea (Arabian) is highest in Sicilians


http://i57.tinypic.com/bgd5jn.jpg

[Thrax]

Una faccia una razza

[Scipio Africanus]

propaganda fascista

[Ulla]

propaganda fascista

Una faccia, una razza? Indubbiamente, ma c'è un legame profondo tra l'Italia e la Grecia, al di là di questi giochini puerili sulla tassonomia, che va al di là del Fascismo. Non pensi?

[Scipio Africanus]

Una faccia, una razza? Indubbiamente, ma c'è un legame profondo tra l'Italia e la Grecia, al di là di questi giochini puerili sulla tassonomia, che va al di là del Fascismo. Non pensi?

si,sono d'accordo

[caviezel]

I bet those people from Lazio are Romans of mixed ancestry.

[Sikeliot]

I bet those people from Lazio are Romans of mixed ancestry.

One of them says they know of some Sicilian surnames in their family, but they don't know from when they arrived.

[Thrax]

propaganda fascista

In Greece we don't use this expression with any fascist meaning, it just shows the bond between the two countries.

[Casandrinos]

It seems that (Mainland) Greeks are a more Eastern European version of South Italians.

[Sikeliot]

It seems that (Mainland) Greeks are a more Eastern European version of South Italians.

Yes. Which is why I jokingly call you "Slavicized Sicilians". ;)

I won't say with any level of academic certainty though, if this is true, or rather if they always were more Eastern European. If you look at the Cretan result, she easily fits in with the southern Italians and Sicilians, though she is also 1/4 Anatolian Greek.

[Argentano]

great thread..it would be cool if you could add some calabrians!

[Sikeliot]

great thread..it would be cool if you could add some calabrians!

I assume they're close to the Cretan result, or the one from Messina. I could try to find some.

[MINARDOWICZ]

Hmmm. The S Italian results with over 35% East Med make me suspicious... Especially the 36% Campanian one. Sounds Italkim to me.

[Sikeliot]

Hmmm. The S Italian results with over 35% East Med make me suspicious... Especially the 36% Campanian one. Sounds Italkim to me.

They're not Jewish today, whether or not their ancestors were converts I could not say for sure. The average seems to be 30%, so 36% could just be outliers. Notice though that the rest of their scores are consistent with the averages.

[Sikeliot]

The other result I am unable to post due to GEDmatch being down is from Agrigento and scores similarly though that is expected since that region is the most exotic in Sicily.

I'd like to see people's results from Syracuse. Due to more Greek input I expect more Baltic.

[MINARDOWICZ]

They're not Jewish today, whether or not their ancestors were converts I could not say for sure. The average seems to be 30%, so 36% could just be outliers. Notice though that the rest of their scores are consistent with the averages.

Not really man. Not at all. The fact is, almost all the results are outliers and I've seen Y-DNA results which are slightly different from normal Italians. So, they are most definitely genetically different. Sure, they mixed with non-jews, but they are most definitely slightly different. The difference is slight, but it is there, and the YDNA differences shows that.

P.S. have you not seen the official population averages? They plotted CLOSER to Sephardi than normal S Italians. I HIGHLY doubt they are just Italians who happen to be Jews. They are Italians with extra Levantine heritage. No doubt.

[MINARDOWICZ]

Since Italkims have been brought up. ANYONE have Italian Jew 23&me result? I'm curious how much of their score is "Italian" and how much of it shows up as something else. Also, curious if they score SUPER high extra MENA blood (as they should, based on their MENA shifted population average).

[Isleño]

Hmmm. The S Italian results with over 35% East Med make me suspicious... Especially the 36% Campanian one. Sounds Italkim to me.

Here's a look at autosomal DNA of several different ethnicities, including Greek, Sicilian, Tuscan, Northern Italian (Bergamo) and Ashkenazi Jewish, where you can compare them with other Europeans:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Admixtures-Lazaridis.png

[Sikeliot]

Not really man. Not at all. The fact is, almost all the results are outliers and I've seen Y-DNA results which are slightly different from normal Italians. So, they are most definitely genetically different. Sure, they mixed with non-jews, but they are most definitely slightly different. The difference is slight, but it is there, and the YDNA differences shows that.

P.S. have you not seen the official population averages? They plotted CLOSER to Sephardi than normal S Italians. I HIGHLY doubt they are just Italians who happen to be Jews. They are Italians with extra Levantine heritage. No doubt.

Well I will say that having seen the population averages, all of the people whose results I have seen have higher East Med, West Asian, etc. than what the averages come out with. So I suspect that as more results come in, we will see some on the other end of the spectrum too.

[MINARDOWICZ]

Well I will say that having seen the population averages, all of the people whose results I have seen have higher East Med, West Asian, etc. than what the averages come out with. So I suspect that as more results come in, we will see some on the other end of the spectrum too.

Hmmm... IDK. I bet that means Italkim have EVEN higher East med :p. So... that'll be crazy! :o. Close to MENA levels? HAHA!

[askra]

Here's a look at autosomal DNA of several different ethnicities, including Greek, Sicilian, Tuscan, Northern Italian (Bergamo) and Ashkenazi Jewish, where you can compare them with other Europeans:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Admixtures-Lazaridis.png

What is this chart showing sardinians as eastern mediterraneans with a prevalence of G2a and E-V143 haplogroups?
Sardinians get some of the highest percentages of I haplogroup in the world and the second most common one is the R1b.

[Ulla]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TShZrL1hQLI/AAAAAAAADKM/f2VuiF4Fm0E/s1600/ADMIXTURE_10.png

[cally]

E-V13 isn't East Med. It's Balkan

[Styrian Mujo]

What is that chart showing sardinians as eastern mediterraneans with a prevalence of G2a and E-V143 haplogropups? LOL

Sardinians get some of the highest percentage of I haplogroup in the world and the second most common one is the R1b.
East mediterranean admixture was brought by neolithic farmers (G2a,E-V13) who mixed with and displaced the mesolithic European population(I,R). The R1b in Sardinia is probably due to Celto-Italic/Roman influence. And don't confuse the name "eastern mediterranean" with modern eastern mediterranean populations,the name was given because this genetic component originated in the eastern mediterranean region and later migrated further west.

[Styrian Mujo]

E-V13 isn't East Med. It's Balkan
Names for these K20 genetic admixtures/components were given their name by the regions they originated from/ancient populations and not after modern populations where they are most dominant.

[askra]

East mediterranean admixture was brought by neolithic farmers (G2a,E-V13) who mixed with and displaced the mesolithic European population(I,R). The R1b in Sardinia is probably due to Celto-Italic/Roman influence. And don't confuse the name "eastern mediterranean" with modern eastern mediterranean populations,the name was given because this genetic component originated in the eastern mediterranean region and later migrated further west.

No, probably we were undergone in mass to a secret genetic recombination project lately. It's the only way to explain that chart.

[Styrian Mujo]

No, probably we were undergone in mass to a secret genetic recombination project lately. It's the only way to explain that chart.
I don't know what did you expect? Did you think Sardinians were some sort Mesolithic population or what? Mesolithic admixture represents the native European population,east med represents the neolithic migrants,Caucaso-Persian probably arrived in the late neolithic or after the neolithic and the rest is recent non-European admixture.

[Ulla]

Wtf is this chart showing sardinians as eastern mediterraneans with a prevalence of G2a and E-V143 haplogroups? Sardinians get some of the highest percentages of I haplogroup in the world and the second most common one is the R1b.

"Iosif Lazaridis could indeed be the person hidden behind the pseudonym Dienekes Pontikos".

I don't find any scientific publication that has published this research. The only one is a preprint server for biology. Mmm...

[Styrian Mujo]

"Iosif Lazaridis could indeed be the person hidden behind the pseudonym Dienekes Pontikos".

I don't find any scientific publication that has published this research. The only one is a preprint server for biology. Mmm...
Read what Maciamo wrote in his analysis.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29427-Analysing-Eurasian-amp-African-autosomal-DNA-from-Lazaridis-et-al-2013

[Ulla]

Read what Maciamo wrote in his analysis.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29427-Analysing-Eurasian-amp-African-autosomal-DNA-from-Lazaridis-et-al-2013

I already did. Maciamo is a good guy, and I trust his good faith, but he isn't a scientist at all, just an enthusiast.

[Styrian Mujo]

I think K20 admixtures make quite alot of sense IMO.

[Ulla]

I think K20 admixtures make quite alot of sense IMO.

No doubt that it makes sense to you.

[Styrian Mujo]

No doubt that it makes sense to you.
Why?

[askra]

"Iosif Lazaridis could indeed be the person hidden behind the pseudonym Dienekes Pontikos".

I don't find any scientific publication that has published this research. The only one is a preprint server for biology. Mmm...



I don't realise because in anthroforums many members overvalue charts of that kind realised by bloggers without any sort of reputation inside the scientific community, rather that post true scientific publications.

According to these unreliable studies few month ago i belonged to the most west mediterranean admixtured population in the world, another time the most atlantic med, sometimes the most neolithic one, other times the most upper paleolithic in Europe, now the most eastern med and I haplogroup that constitutes almost the 40% of population is completely disappeared now.
may be we are mutants. :p

[Ulla]

Why?

Because your vision is quite clear.

[Ulla]

I don't realise because in anthroforums many members overvalue charts of that kind realised by bloggers without any sort of reputation inside the scientific community, rather that post true scientific publications.

He (Lazaridis) is a researcher in a very good department, to be honest. But like most researchers he is trying to draw big attention. What makes me wonder is that his university does not sign his research. Seems to be a personal work. But I will investigate through my professors. However, the identification of Lazaridis with Pontikos has not yet demonstrated.

[Ulla]

According to these unscientific studies few month ago i belonged to the most west mediterranean admixtured population in the world, another time the most atlantic med, sometimes the most neolithic one, other times the most upper paleolithic in Europe, now the most eastern med and I haplogroup that constitutes almost the 40% of population is completely disappeared now.
may be we are mutants. :p

Mystery solved, found other infos. True that Iosif Lazaridis is a reasercher in a good deparment, but he is a computer scientist, not a population geneticist! He is not even an anthropologist or historian! He got his PhD in "Information and Computer Science".

Hai capito?

[Ibericus]

Mystery solved, found other infos. True that Iosif Lazaridis is a reasercher in a good deparment, but he is a computer scientist, not a population geneticist! He is not even an anthropologist or historian! He got is PhD in "Information and Computer Science".

Hai capito?
The labels are NOT from the study of Lazaridis, he made the graphs but not the labels, which are made by some anonymous blogger.

[Ulla]

The labels are NOT from the study of Lazaridis, he made the graphs but not the labels, which are made by some anonymous blogger.

Thanks. Made by Maciamo (Eupedia), I guess.

However Lazaridis is not a true geneticist.

[cally]

East mediterranean admixture was brought by neolithic farmers (G2a,E-V13) who mixed with and displaced the mesolithic European population(I,R). The R1b in Sardinia is probably due to Celto-Italic/Roman influence. And don't confuse the name "eastern mediterranean" with modern eastern mediterranean populations,the name was given because this genetic component originated in the eastern mediterranean region and later migrated further west.
EV13 itself arose in the Balkans just before Neolithic farmer migrations

[Styrian Mujo]

EV13 itself arose in the Balkans just before Neolithic farmer migrations
Maybe some specific deep subclades but in general E-V13 was brought my neolithic farmers. I belive E-V13 was found among Iberian neolithic farmer remains along with G2a. The bulk of J2 and all of J1 probably arrived later due to migrations from the east med in the Greco-Roman period.

[cally]

Maybe some specific deep subclades but in general E-V13 was brought my neolithic farmers. I belive E-V13 was found among Iberian neolithic farmer remains.
Yeah that's true. I'm just going by what I've read on 23andme. I'm not sure where they get their information from.

http://i59.tinypic.com/330wc3d.jpg

[Faklon]

Yes. Which is why I jokingly call you "Slavicized Sicilians". ;)

I won't say with any level of academic certainty though, if this is true, or rather if they always were more Eastern European. If you look at the Cretan result, she easily fits in with the southern Italians and Sicilians, though she is also 1/4 Anatolian Greek.

Baltic in this Cretan sample however is still bigger than the Italian samples shown and the difference between it and North_Atlantic is smaller than some other mainland samples,1-2 samples however show different affinity but it's not the rule.

Do you know exact locations?

[Sikeliot]

Baltic in this Cretan sample however is still bigger than the Italian samples shown and the difference between it and North_Atlantic is smaller than some other mainland samples,1-2 samples however show different affinity but it's not the rule.

Do you know exact locations?

The Anatolian grandparent was from Istanbul, and the Cretan side from Sfakia.

[Faklon]

The Anatolian grandparent was from Istanbul, and the Cretan side from Sfakia.


What about the other Greek samples?

[Sikeliot]

What about the other Greek samples?

HellLander87 posted them, and said they were mainlanders.

[Faklon]

HellLander87 posted them, and said they were mainlanders.

Where?In another thread here?

[Sikeliot]

Where?In another thread here?

Yep, it's called 'Balkan K13 Results'.

[Faklon]

Yep, it's called 'Balkan K13 Results'.

Alright.

[Isleño]

Do you know what reference population Eurogenes is using for both West Med and East Med? Or is it various reference populations? Did you see findings of the 2013 Lazaridis autosomal study? I've been using that one lately.

[Sikeliot]

Do you know what reference population Eurogenes is using for both West Med and East Med? Or is it various reference populations? Did you see findings of the 2013 Lazaridis autosomal study? I've been using that one lately.

East Med peaks in Cyprus, West Med in Sardinia.

[Isleño]

East Med peaks in Cyprus, West Med in Sardinia.
I know they peak in those locations, but are they the locations being used as reference populations for West Med and East Med by Eurogenes?

[Sikeliot]

I know they peak in those locations, but are they the locations being used as reference populations for West Med and East Med by Eurogenes?

East Med I am unsure, but West Med is definitely Sardinian.

[Isleño]

East Med I am unsure, but West Med is definitely Sardinian.

Yes, I thought they might have used Sardinia, because it's the most widely known source of West Med and considerably more than other Mediterranean areas, but I'm quite curious to know who they used for East Med.

[Sikeliot]

Yes, I thought they might have used Sardinia, because it's the most widely known source of West Med and considerably more than other Mediterranean areas, but I'm quite curious to know who they used for East Med.

It's usually Cyprus but I am unsure what they used this time.

[Isleño]

I don't know what did you expect? Did you think Sardinians were some sort Mesolithic population or what? Mesolithic admixture represents the native European population,east med represents the neolithic migrants,Caucaso-Persian probably arrived in the late neolithic or after the neolithic and the rest is recent non-European admixture.
I completely agree with your explanation about Sardinia, but I just wanted to add that Mesolithic European, just like Neolthic migrants, came from the east but at an earlier time period. So to say one is native European and the other is not, to me doesn't make much sense. Especially since compared today, both were so long ago.

[Isleño]

It's usually Cyprus but I am unsure what they used this time.

Well I can see why Lazaridis called all of the Med component in Europe "East Med", because all of it came from the Eastern Mediterranean at one point. Not to get this confused with modern East Meds whom have many other components besides this East Med. And in Europe, the Neolithic is mixed with the Mesolithic component, so actually it's even different than the East Med found in non-European East Med people such as Levantines like Palestinians for example.

[askra]

Well I can see why Lazaridis called all of the Med component in Europe "East Med", because all of it came from the Eastern Mediterranean at one point. Not to get this confused with modern East Meds whom have many other components besides this East Med. And in Europe, the Neolithic is mixed with the Mesolithic component, so actually it's even different than the East Med found in non-European East Med people such as Levantines like Palestinians for example.

Don't take too much seriously those charts by Polako, Dodecad, etc... from a scientific point of view they haven't any relevance.

With those admixture charts you can in theory even claim that Sub Saharans are 100% Northern Europeans, choosing some components, omitting other ones, or calling them with different names.

[Isleño]

Don't take too much seriously those charts by Polako, Dodecad, etc... from a scientific point of view they haven't any relevance.

With those admixture charts you can in theory even claim that Sub Saharans are 100% Northern Europeans, choosing some components, omitting other ones, or calling them with different names.I disagree. Lazaridis' study is the most recent and uses current technology and shows to be quite accurate. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but to me, I can't accept an opinion over a current DNA study conducted by a trained professional in the field. Also, no study out there shows SSA's to be Northern Europeans.