Pretty shocking stuff, the origin of my Haplogroup Part 2

[Stefan_Dusan]

Based on 67 STR marker results


You are most likely a descendant of the Bagratuni (Bagratid) dynasty. I am almost certain your ancestors must have belonged to the Taronite branch of the Bagratuni. Members of that dynasty were sent to the Balkans by Byzantine Emperors. I gave a presentation at the Library of Congress in April where I discussed all of that. It was before knowing you. I should publish an article on this soon in a scholarly journal and will send you a copy.


Some family members were assigned positions in the Balkans already in the late 10th Century or early 11th. The Taronites split from the rest of the Bagratids in the late 8th Century. The FTDNA calculation is not always correct, but it is enough to show us it is medieval and not Neolithic.

I am 100% sure that your ancestors were Bagratids. Belonging to the Taronite branch is a possibility, since their presence in the Balkans is documented, but there may be Bagratid from other branches who moved to the Balkans, and about whom we do not know.

So my paternal ancestors did not come with slavs, nor were they old inhabitants of the Balkans, but rather they were an Armenian noble and warrior family settled by Byzantines sometime in 10th/11th century to be mini-Lords. I'm still reeling from shock tbh.

Couple points:

family legend is ultimately we came from some isolated area of Albania. One of the Taronites had Durress area in service for Byzantines in 1200s according to Wikipedia before leaving it. From there is no Wikipedia articles though I hope the guy will give me some literature.

The use of Progon in my surname is Byzantine usage for noble families, so this makes sense.

Everything else is just shocking. As far as I trace, I don't trace to prior 1292, and this just shows the limit of human oral tradition and the power of genetics. Again I'm shocked....

[HellLander87]

Taronites (Greek: Ταρωνίτης), feminine form Taronitissa (Ταρωνίτισσα), was the name of a noble Byzantine family, descended from the ruling family of the Armenian principality of Taron.

It was founded by the brothers Gregory and Bagrat (Pankratios in Greek), who ceded the principality to the Byzantines in 968 in exchange for estates and high dignities. The family is prominent among the military aristocracy in the late 10th/early 11th centuries, and later became related to the Komnenian dynasty through the marriage of Michael Taronites to Maria, the sister of Alexios I Komnenos. In the 12th century, the Taronitai became mainly civilian bureaucrats, many occupying high posts in the central government in Constantinople. The family lost its status and influence after the dissolution of the Byzantine Empire by the Fourth Crusade in 1204.
You may even be related to byzantine emperors if this about your haplogroup is true.

[Armand_Duval]

Congratulations, that's a pretty cool familiar background.:thumb001:

[Tacitus]

That sounds pretty damn amazing.

[Stefan_Dusan]

You may even be related to byzantine emperors if this about your haplogroup is true.

Do you know which one? Right now I know so little about them, who are probably my ancestors!


The Bagratid dynasties – Bagratuni (Բագրատունյաց) in Armenia and Bagrationi (ბაგრატიონი) in Georgia – count among the longest-reigning royal families in the Caucasus (and in Europe), starting as princely houses and attaining to the royal status in both countries in the 9th century. The origins of the Bagratids are disputed though more widely accepted version has it that the both dynasties had common roots, beginning in Armenia and branching later into Georgia.[1][2] The main Armenian house went extinct by the 12th century, while the Georgian line, in its minor branch, continues to this day as the nominal Royal House of Georgia. The root of the names Bagrationi and Bagratuni, Bagrat-, derives from the Old Persian Bagadāta, "God-Given". In Armenia and Georgia, the respective names for the Bagratid dynasties literally translate to "The children of/house established by Bagrat" (Bagrat + Classical Greek: - id, "the children").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Bagratid_dynasties

[Ice]

Based on 67 STR marker results


So my paternal ancestors did not come with slavs, nor were they old inhabitants of the Balkans, but rather they were an Armenian noble and warrior family settled by Byzantines sometime in 10th/11th century to be mini-Lords. I'm still reeling from shock tbh.

Couple points:

family legend is ultimately we came from some isolated area of Albania. One of the Taronites had Durress area in service for Byzantines in 1200s according to Wikipedia before leaving it. From there is no Wikipedia articles though I hope the guy will give me some literature.

The use of Progon in my surname is Byzantine usage for noble families, so this makes sense.

Everything else is just shocking. As far as I trace, I don't trace to prior 1292, and this just shows the limit of human oral tradition and the power of genetics. Again I'm shocked....

Who told you that ?

[HellLander87]

Do you know which one? Right now I know so little about them, who are probably my ancestors!



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Bagratid_dynasties
no idea,i just searched taronites at wiki and it came up with this.

the marriage of Michael Taronites to Maria, the sister of Alexios I Komnenos.
So if you are really descended from these people there is a chance that you are descended from emperor's Alexios Komnenos sister.Their father was the emperor Isaakios Komnenos.They lived at 11th century.Their tree at greek wiki. Google translate will do fine.

http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%94%CF%85%CE%BD%CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B5%CE%AF%C E%B1_%CE%9A%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%BD%CE%B7%CE%BD%CF%8E%CE %BD

[portusaus]

That's really cool. Damn, you must really hate Turks now :p

[HellLander87]

Something else interesting.
The tree of Michael taronites.He had two kids with Maria Komnena one of which was duke of Skopje.
http://fabpedigree.com/s004/f844853.htm

[Stefan_Dusan]

Who told you that ?

One of the admins on I2c project on ftDNA. I won't give his name because he is apparently someone who is in academic world, giving papers and presentations, so it might be damaging to his reputation for his name to be associated to my comments let alone the comments of everyone else here xD

[Stefan_Dusan]

That's really cool. Damn, you must really hate Turks now :p

lol that was what I was thinking, I now have 2 reasons to hate Turks :D

But at least my immediate family participated in their explosion from Serbia. While my more distant ancestors were being massacred in Armenia.

I'm also thinking that a branch of this dynasty is STILL the ruling house of Georgia. The nominal royal family if you will. Maybe I should show up and see if I have any hereditary rights :D

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Based on 67 STR marker results





So my paternal ancestors did not come with slavs, nor were they old inhabitants of the Balkans, but rather they were an Armenian noble and warrior family settled by Byzantines sometime in 10th/11th century to be mini-Lords. I'm still reeling from shock tbh.

Couple points:

family legend is ultimately we came from some isolated area of Albania. One of the Taronites had Durress area in service for Byzantines in 1200s according to Wikipedia before leaving it. From there is no Wikipedia articles though I hope the guy will give me some literature.

The use of Progon in my surname is Byzantine usage for noble families, so this makes sense.

Everything else is just shocking. As far as I trace, I don't trace to prior 1292, and this just shows the limit of human oral tradition and the power of genetics. Again I'm shocked....


lol that was what I was thinking, I now have 2 reasons to hate Turks :D

But at least my immediate family participated in their explosion from Serbia. While my more distant ancestors were being massacred in Armenia.

I'm also thinking that a branch of this dynasty is STILL the ruling house of Georgia. The nominal royal family if you will. Maybe I should show up and see if I have any hereditary rights :D

Ringlatter guy is so jelly. I hope you don't begin calling us all peasants.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Something else interesting.
The tree of Michael taronites.He had two kids with Maria Komnena one of which was duke of Skopje.
http://fabpedigree.com/s004/f844853.htm

Awesome stuff, good fine :cool:

Also:


but ended up marrying Samuel's daughter Miroslava and becoming governor of Dyrrhachium,

Which is Durress in Albania.

So governor of Durress in Albania, Duke of Macedonia, military noble family.

[Gomorra]

Is it really Progon or Progovac?

[Herr Abubu]

Is it really Progon or Progovac?

Progovac is Progon with Serbian -vac suffix, denoting "of Progon" and being plural, denoting origin from a brotherhood (bratstvo).

[Herr Abubu]

This is really interesting. I want to try FTDNA to see what I can find out about my family line. 23andme does not dig in as deep as this, it hardly even digs.

[Ice]

One of the admins on I2c project on ftDNA. I won't give his name because he is apparently someone who is in academic world, giving papers and presentations, so it might be damaging to his reputation for his name to be associated to my comments let alone the comments of everyone else here xD

Hovann Simonian.

[Hevo]

Lol what a plot twist but awesome bro.

[Kazimiera]

Awesome! Congratulations! This is really exciting stuff.

We have a royal among us here! http://www.santafemods.com/images/Smileys/king2.gif

[Black Wolf]

Lol this is really interesting and shocking even. My own direct paternal line also looks to be originally Armenian before my ancestor reached Italy. This is also based on my 67 marker matches. My closest are with Armenians. Hovann Simonian actually belongs to the same haplotype cluster that I do. He speculates that my paternal line ancestor was an Armenian that went to Italy during Byzantine times maybe as a soldier.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Progovac is Progon with Serbian -vac suffix, denoting "of Progon" and being plural, denoting origin from a brotherhood (bratstvo).

Reason is Progon means "first" i.e progenitor and when Milosh had his brothers, the oldest line was denoted this way, hence our surname, the other lines took different names. This is stated in my tree.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Lol this is really interesting and shocking even. My own direct paternal line also looks to be originally Armenian before my ancestor reached Italy. This is also based on my 67 marker matches. My closest are with Armenians. Hovann Simonian actually belongs to the same haplotype cluster that I do. He speculates that my paternal line ancestor was an Armenian that went to Italy during Byzantine times maybe as a soldier.

Interesting because the guy I communicate with is also "Hovann" but on my email chain, he has different last name or maybe that's just a nickname for his email addy

[Gomorra]

Congrats to you, Stefan. It might be good idea to upgrade your results to 111 STR markers.

[Kazimiera]

And here I was thinking that getting my own haplogroup was special. :pout:

[Ice]

Interesting because the guy I communicate with is also "Hovann" but on my email chain, he has different last name or maybe that's just a nickname for his email addy

That's because he manages more than 100 accounts..

[alb0zfinest]

Edit

[Stefan_Dusan]

Edit

Haha come on, I'm curious what you have to say :D

[Herr Abubu]

edit

[Styrian Mujo]

I wonder what haplogroup I have.

[StonyArabia]

I wonder what haplogroup I have.

J1 Arab subclad mostly likely

[Styrian Mujo]

J1 Arab subclad mostly likely
I have a very small chance of having J1.

[Äijä]

Lol this is really interesting and shocking even. My own direct paternal line also looks to be originally Armenian before my ancestor reached Italy. This is also based on my 67 marker matches. My closest are with Armenians. Hovann Simonian actually belongs to the same haplotype cluster that I do. He speculates that my paternal line ancestor was an Armenian that went to Italy during Byzantine times maybe as a soldier.

You have lower nobility in your Finnish family, that is certain at least. ;)

[Äijä]

Based on 67 STR marker results





So my paternal ancestors did not come with slavs, nor were they old inhabitants of the Balkans, but rather they were an Armenian noble and warrior family settled by Byzantines sometime in 10th/11th century to be mini-Lords. I'm still reeling from shock tbh.

Couple points:

family legend is ultimately we came from some isolated area of Albania. One of the Taronites had Durress area in service for Byzantines in 1200s according to Wikipedia before leaving it. From there is no Wikipedia articles though I hope the guy will give me some literature.

The use of Progon in my surname is Byzantine usage for noble families, so this makes sense.

Everything else is just shocking. As far as I trace, I don't trace to prior 1292, and this just shows the limit of human oral tradition and the power of genetics. Again I'm shocked....

Congratulations Stefan, I expect royal festivities if I come to Belgrade when you are there. :D

[Hevo]

I wonder what haplogroup I have.

is your Parental side Slovenian? Biggest chance would be R1a,I2a1b,R1b, I1 or maybe EV-13 but there is only one way to find out.

[Styrian Mujo]

is your Parental side Slovenian? Biggest chance would be R1a,I2a1b,R1b, I1 or maybe EV-13 but there is only one way to find out.
No paternal is Bosniak so I have some chance of getting J2.

[Black Wolf]

Interesting because the guy I communicate with is also "Hovann" but on my email chain, he has different last name or maybe that's just a nickname for his email addy

Ya he is probably the same guy. Looks like we may both be long lost Armos lol.

[Kastrioti1443]

Based on 67 STR marker results





So my paternal ancestors did not come with slavs, nor were they old inhabitants of the Balkans, but rather they were an Armenian noble and warrior family settled by Byzantines sometime in 10th/11th century to be mini-Lords. I'm still reeling from shock tbh.

Couple points:

family legend is ultimately we came from some isolated area of Albania. One of the Taronites had Durress area in service for Byzantines in 1200s according to Wikipedia before leaving it. From there is no Wikipedia articles though I hope the guy will give me some literature.

The use of Progon in my surname is Byzantine usage for noble families, so this makes sense.

Everything else is just shocking. As far as I trace, I don't trace to prior 1292, and this just shows the limit of human oral tradition and the power of genetics. Again I'm shocked....

It is true , in the beginning of 1200s, Durres as a city and the plains around the city were still offically under Byzantine control and Albanian Noble Families hand't taken control yet. ( that is why i call people in the cities mongrels)

This is very interesting actually. However if the legends says your family comes from an isolate part of albanian than how is it possible you have this haplogroup? Maybe only your maternal line?

[kuqezi]

Based on 67 STR marker results





So my paternal ancestors did not come with slavs, nor were they old inhabitants of the Balkans, but rather they were an Armenian noble and warrior family settled by Byzantines sometime in 10th/11th century to be mini-Lords. I'm still reeling from shock tbh.

Couple points:

family legend is ultimately we came from some isolated area of Albania. One of the Taronites had Durress area in service for Byzantines in 1200s according to Wikipedia before leaving it. From there is no Wikipedia articles though I hope the guy will give me some literature.

The use of Progon in my surname is Byzantine usage for noble families, so this makes sense.

Everything else is just shocking. As far as I trace, I don't trace to prior 1292, and this just shows the limit of human oral tradition and the power of genetics. Again I'm shocked....

So I guess with you only ever taking into consideration your male line you no longer consider yourself a Serb? Lol

This could explain your western plotting as since originally your family must have mostly intermarried with Serb nobles for a while who where all from west and northwest of kosovo. At least that's if your plotting has much significance anyways.

[Black Wolf]

It is true , in the beginning of 1200s, Durres as a city and the plains around the city were still offically under Byzantine control and Albanian Noble Families hand't taken control yet. ( that is why i call people in the cities mongrels)

This is very interesting actually. However if the legends says your family comes from an isolate part of albanian than how is it possible you have this haplogroup? Maybe only your maternal line?

Anything is possible. Seems pretty clear now that his paternal line was Armenian before it reached the Balkans.

[Don Arb]

So who came from Caucas now?! xD you can pretend to be King of Serbia though.

[Gomorra]

Stefan: Even your haplogroup(I-M170) is not confirmed. No any SNPs. You cannot trust solely STRs.

[Artek]

Congrats to you, Stefan. It might be good idea to upgrade your results to 111 STR markers.
With not so many to compare? He should spare money for a BigY or SNP's, not waste money for markers as they don't tell that much.

[Stefan_Dusan]

It is true , in the beginning of 1200s, Durres as a city and the plains around the city were still offically under Byzantine control and Albanian Noble Families hand't taken control yet. ( that is why i call people in the cities mongrels)

This is very interesting actually. However if the legends says your family comes from an isolate part of albanian than how is it possible you have this haplogroup? Maybe only your maternal line?

Family legends can always wrong, or they can not be far enough in tradition. Obviously we didn't trace by oral tradition to this noble family for whatever reason, and I'm still examining why not. Though if he was a governor of Durrazzo, and had children, maybe some of those children moved to an isolated part before coming to Kosovo. But who knows.

[Stefan_Dusan]

So I guess with you only ever taking into consideration your male line you no longer consider yourself a Serb? Lol

This could explain your western plotting as since originally your family must have mostly intermarried with Serb nobles for a while who where all from west and northwest of kosovo. At least that's if your plotting has much significance anyways.

lol I'm in pickle how to consider myself xD Yes, Y-line is only one line but it's the most important line. However, I2c is rare in Armenia, and seems to be tied to the noble family almost exclusively (as well in Georgia) so it's possibility that the noble family of Armenia was originally not Armenian but something else? But this is becoming to be a bigger and bigger mindfuck so I should stop :D

Anyways, that won't explain it exactly since I'm even west of Montenegrin and Herzegovinian Serbs, but they are the Serbs who plot closest to me. This may come across as incredibly arrogant, but I want to say the further northwest you plot for a Serb is the purer you kept your lines from Turks or gypsys. But again, I feel this statement to be somewhat arrogant and maybe inaccurate, it does make me the most pure Serb so far since I'm the most western plotting xD

How west I plot is due to the fact my genome resembles that of Basques more than most other Balkanites (so far all by my 70+ samples). I noticed this oddity when doing GED calculators but I didn't tie this to my western plotting until recently where I actually plot closer to some Spaniards than Bulgarians. AC doesn't pick up any "Iberian" in me, so this is ancient residue from god knows where.

[Stefan_Dusan]

So who came from Caucas now?! xD you can pretend to be King of Serbia though.

What is very funny is if you look at dates, my noble family had rulership over Kavkaz Albania, and we happened to come to Balkans in 1000s, exact time Albanians first are mentioned in Balkans by Bulgarian source. Maybe my family brought you along with us to make us feel more at home :D

[Stefan_Dusan]

Stefan: Even your haplogroup(I-M170) is not confirmed. No any SNPs. You cannot trust solely STRs.

Well on 23andMe, my haplogroup shows up as simple "I2" instead of I2a* or I2b* or even "I2*" and I'm negative for about every SNP to put me in any of those categories, according to the other researches who I gave my account access. Not to mention STR data for 67 markers so far (I will upgrade to 111) so I don't know what else to do to confirm. Suggestions?


With not so many to compare? He should spare money for a BigY or SNP's, not waste money for markers as they don't tell that much.

I don't understand this, how will SNPs tie me to this family? Since most SNPs will trace my ancestry much deeper than medieval period?

Whereas, there are other people from the Balkans with I2c, as well as Europe on the project and they don't match sufficiently on STRs this family descendants. I'm the only one from outside the Kavkaz to be sorted into this group, to me it's pretty damning....

[Artek]

I don't understand this, how will SNPs tie me to this family? Since most SNPs will trace my ancestry much deeper than medieval period?
SNP's are more reliable(related people must have the same set of SNP's, whereas markers are prone towards homoplasy) and they unveil relations that are not always obvious when comparing Y-STR -results. But the requirement for that would either be to wait for some related I2c members to have their Y-chromosome sequenced (and then to wait for a newly-discovered downstream SNP's to order them) or to have your own Y-chromosome sequenced(BigY should be sufficient). Refine to Y111 costs for about 130 bucks if I remember correctly but the prospective benefits aren't worth it.
Discounted BigY had a cost of 400$ and discovers new SNP's, confirms existing ones, provides 400 Y-STR markers after additional interpretation of .BAM file. Also, has a function of matching with other BigY participants.

That are your money and your decision to make but personally, I would've spared a bit of a coin and had chosen a test that is probably a final Y-DNA one to conduct in entire life.