Transylvanian Saxons

[SKYNET]

http://expelledgermans.org/siebenbuergen.jpg http://expelledgermans.org/banat.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Sachsen_in_Siebenb%C3%BCrgen.JPG


The Transylvanian Saxons (German: Siebenbürger Sachsen; Hungarian: Erdélyi szászok; Romanian: Sași) are a people of German ethnicity who settled in Transylvania (German: Siebenbürgen) from the 12th century onwards.

The colonization of Transylvania by Germans was begun by King Géza II of Hungary (1141–1162). For decades, the main task of the German settlers was to defend the southeastern border of the Kingdom of Hungary. The colonization continued until the end of the 13th century. Although the colonists came mostly from the western Holy Roman Empire and generally spoke Franconian dialects, they were collectively known as Saxons because of Germans working for the Hungarian chancellery. For much of their history, these Saxons held a privileged status with the Hungarian nobles and Szeklers of Transylvania.

After 1918, when following the Treaty of Trianon Transylvania became part of Romania, Transylvanian Saxons, together with other German-speaking groups in newly enlarged Romania (Banat Swabians, Sathmar Swabians, Bessarabia Germans, Dobrudja Germans, Bukovina Germans) became part of the German minority in Romania. The Transylvanian Saxon population has decreased since World War II. Transylvanian Saxons started leaving Transylvania during and after WWII, settling first in Austria, then especially in Germany. The process of emigration continued during Communist rule in Romania, and even into the collapse of the Ceausescu Regime in 1989, when approximately half a million fled to Germany. The great majority of Transylvanian Saxons now live in Germany. A sizable Transylvanian Saxon population also resides today in the United States, notably in Idaho, Ohio and Colorado and in Southern Ontario, Canada. Very few still live in Romania, where at the last official census around 37,000 Germans were registered, the number including also Banat Swabians and Sathmar Swabians.





http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Sibiu%2C_Pfarrkirche1.jpg

The Lutheran Cathedral in Sibiu (Hermannstadt)



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/SaxonFortifiedChurchNetus.JPG/640px-SaxonFortifiedChurchNetus.JPG

Saxon church with fortified bell tower in Netuș


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/SaxonCitadelCincsor.JPG/1280px-SaxonCitadelCincsor.JPG

Saxon fortified church in Cincsor





http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Romania_1930_ethnic_map_EN.png/1280px-Romania_1930_ethnic_map_EN.png

https://writewrotewritten.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/transylvaniadark.gif?w=625

[Peterski]

This guy would be around 50% Transylvanian Saxon, right?:

Out of 25 ancestral surnames, 12 or 13 look German:

1) Neumann (Jihlava (Iglau))
2) Ludwig (Brasov (Kronstadt), Arad)
3) Neusser (Jihlava (Iglau))
4) Harandt (Jihlava (Iglau))
5) Weiner (Jihlava (Iglau))
6) Heyer (Jihlava (Iglau))
7) Warton (Barton) (Jihlava (Iglau))
8) Schwammerschneider (Jihlava (Iglau))
9) Lang (Long) (Jihlava (Iglau))
10) Pernfuss (Jihlava (Iglau))
11) Leiter (Kronstadt)
12) Politzer (Jihlava (Iglau))

13) Prosl (Jihlava (Iglau)) ---> also German surname?

14) Zenob (Jihlava (Iglau))
15) Boata (Nicolint, Caras-Severin)
16) Ilie (Bucharest, Romania)
17) Rodis (Aegina, Greece)
18) Ajtic (Ilok, Croatia)
19) Lakatos (Harghita)
20) Csato (Harghita)
21) Antoniu (Braila)
22) Gheorghiu (Braila)
23) Stefanescu (Bucharest, Braila)
24) Dimache (Fundeni, jud.Calarasi)
25) Ungureanu

^^^ Mlukas found this guy on FTDNA and on GEDmatch.

Is he 50% Saxon? His results aren't Germanic-looking though.

But maybe Transylvanian Saxons were very mixed with locals.

[Lavrentis]

Transylvania is a very interesting and beautiful place. I must visit it someday.

[MinervaItalica]

One of my favourite actresses should be in part Transylvanian Saxon: Johanna Wokalek.

[Dick]

But maybe Transylvanian Saxons were very mixed with locals.
Looks like a mix of Danube Swabian, Saxon and obviously hungarian, romanian and slav judging by all the surnames

[Peterski]

Looks like a mix of Danube Swabian, Saxon and obviously hungarian, romanian and slav judging by all the surnames

For example, he gets in Eurogenes K15 in 4-Ancestors Oracle:

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% East_Sicilian +25% Lithuanian +25% North_Dutch @ 1.229507

Using 4 populations approximation:
(...)
4 Belorussian + Greek_Thessaly + North_Dutch + South_Italian @ 1.219143

[Dick]

Here is what he gets in Eurogenes K15 in 4-Ancestors Oracle:

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% East_Sicilian +25% Lithuanian +25% North_Dutch @ 1.229507

I guess the men in his family liked the Balkan, hungarian and slav pussy a lot.

[Peterski]

I guess the men in his family liked the Balkan, hungarian and slav pussy a lot.

His surname is Non-German. So probably the men in his family liked Saxon pussy.

[Dick]

His surname is Non-German. So probably the men in his family liked Saxon pussy.

That too. I was going by the top 12 surnames, assumed the paternal side was German.

[Peterski]

Judging by his results he seems to be also partially Jewish.

Maybe this is why things like "Sicily" and "South Italy" show up.

Hard to say which surnames are from Jewish ancestors, LOL.

=================

Or maybe not Jewish, because East_Med is common in Romania, right?

Here his K15 results:

Population
North_Sea 19.42
Atlantic 17.82
Baltic 15.62
Eastern_Euro 8.52
West_Med 11.16
West_Asian 8.34
East_Med 13.73
Red_Sea 3.43
South_Asian 1.04
Southeast_Asian 0.20
Siberian 0.11
Amerindian 0.62
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

And his K36 results:

Population
Amerindian 0.46
Arabian 1.77
Armenian 4.07
Basque 0.86
Central_African -
Central_Euro 4.28
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 6.12
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 11.10
East_Med 5.01
Eastern_Euro 7.02
Fennoscandian 4.92
French 0.56
Iberian 9.78
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 18.51
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 4.11
North_African -
North_Atlantic 2.40
North_Caucasian 5.24
North_Sea 12.69
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med 1.09

[Antimage]

transylvanian saxons look like chechens usually. They act chechen too

[Peterski]

Looks like a mix of Danube Swabian, Saxon and obviously hungarian, romanian and slav judging by all the surnames

How do you distinguish Danube Swabian from Saxon surnames?

[Dick]

Judging by his results he seems to be also partially Jewish.

Maybe this is why things like "Sicily" and "South Italy" show up.

Hard to say which surnames are from Jewish ancestors, LOL.

=================

Or maybe not Jewish, because East_Med is common in Romania, right?

Here his K15 results:

Population
North_Sea 19.42
Atlantic 17.82
Baltic 15.62
Eastern_Euro 8.52
West_Med 11.16
West_Asian 8.34
East_Med 13.73
Red_Sea 3.43
South_Asian 1.04
Southeast_Asian 0.20
Siberian 0.11
Amerindian 0.62
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

And his K36 results:

Population
Amerindian 0.46
Arabian 1.77
Armenian 4.07
Basque 0.86
Central_African -
Central_Euro 4.28
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 6.12
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 11.10
East_Med 5.01
Eastern_Euro 7.02
Fennoscandian 4.92
French 0.56
Iberian 9.78
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 18.51
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 4.11
North_African -
North_Atlantic 2.40
North_Caucasian 5.24
North_Sea 12.69
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med 1.09

its from the romanian side. what's his gedmatch #

[Peterski]

what's his gedmatch #

Mlukas found him so maybe he will post it (or not). :p

[Dick]

How do you distinguish Danube Swabian from Saxon surnames?

I didn't. I went by the towns. I assume his Swabian side migrated south from The czech republic, jihlava, during A-H.

[Peterski]

I didn't. I went by the towns. I assume his Swabian side migrated south from The czech republic, jihlava, during A-H.

Yes you are right, he must be also partially Sudeten German.

So he can't be used as a Transylvanian reference. Too mixed.

[Lucas]

Judging by his results he seems to be also partially Jewish.

Maybe this is why things like "Sicily" and "South Italy" show up.

Hard to say which surnames are from Jewish ancestors, LOL.

=================

Or maybe not Jewish, because East_Med is common in Romania, right?

[B]

He isn't Jewish. In Jtest he has 5,38% Askehanzi, and it's below Romania national average in Jtest spreadsheet(5,56%). K13 and K15 treat every East-Med in combination with North Sea / North Atlantic as Jewish.

South Rumanian combined with German could give similar results to Askhenazi probably. In such case Jtest is the answer, not K13 & K15.

[Dick]

Yes you are right, he must be also partially Sudeten German.

So he can't be used as a Transylvanian reference. Too mixed.

I doubt you will ever see a pure Transylvanian Saxon reference or even a pure Danube swabian reference. I can give you a Danube Swabian reference from my ftdna but he is euro American mixed anyway.

[RN97]

its from the romanian side. what's his gedmatch #

It varies a shitton though.
For example
Romanian 1.

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 18.21
2 Atlantic 15.23
3 Baltic 15.23
4 West_Med 13.88
5 West_Asian 12.14
6 East_Med 11.71
7 Eastern_Euro 8.15
8 Red_Sea 3.55
9 Oceanian 1.04
10 Siberian 0.81
11 Amerindian 0.05

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Romanian 4.12
2 Serbian 5.95
3 Bulgarian 6.42
4 Moldavian 10.01
5 Hungarian 11.33
6 Greek_Thessaly 11.5
7 Croatian 12
8 Austrian 12.01
9 Greek 13.58
10 North_Italian 14.12
11 Tuscan 14.18
12 East_German 14.75
13 French 16.19
14 Italian_Abruzzo 16.23
15 Spanish_Galicia 17.04
16 West_German 17.37
17 Central_Greek 17.46
18 South_Dutch 17.48
19 Ukrainian_Lviv 17.52
20 Ashkenazi 17.62

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.7% Romanian + 11.3% West_German @ 3.51
2 88% Romanian + 12% French @ 3.51
3 89% Romanian + 11% Spanish_Galicia @ 3.57
4 92% Romanian + 8% Southwest_English @ 3.64
5 93.3% Romanian + 6.7% Orcadian @ 3.67
6 93.6% Romanian + 6.4% West_Norwegian @ 3.7
7 90.5% Romanian + 9.5% South_Dutch @ 3.71
8 93% Romanian + 7% North_Dutch @ 3.72
9 90.8% Romanian + 9.2% Portuguese @ 3.73
10 93.4% Romanian + 6.6% Norwegian @ 3.73
11 93.1% Romanian + 6.9% Southeast_English @ 3.75
12 93.4% Romanian + 6.6% Swedish @ 3.76
13 93.7% Romanian + 6.3% Irish @ 3.78
14 93.9% Romanian + 6.1% West_Scottish @ 3.79
15 76.6% Bulgarian + 23.4% West_German @ 3.8
16 92.2% Romanian + 7.8% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.82
17 93.3% Romanian + 6.7% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.83
18 92.3% Romanian + 7.7% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.83
19 93.9% Romanian + 6.1% Danish @ 3.83
20 92.2% Romanian + 7.8% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.83

Romanian 2

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 20.22
2 North_Sea 18.49
3 West_Med 14.12
4 Baltic 10.51
5 Eastern_Euro 10.47
6 West_Asian 10.12
7 Atlantic 7.74
8 Red_Sea 3.8
9 Siberian 1.16
10 South_Asian 1.15
11 Northeast_African 1.07
12 Amerindian 0.63
13 Oceanian 0.41
14 Southeast_Asian 0.11

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 7.98
2 Romanian 10.61
3 Bulgarian 10.84
4 Serbian 12
5 Ashkenazi 12.02
6 Greek 12.11
7 Central_Greek 13.65
8 Italian_Abruzzo 14.06
9 East_Sicilian 14.29
10 Tuscan 14.45
11 West_Sicilian 15.71
12 Moldavian 16.1
13 South_Italian 17.08
14 North_Italian 17.24
15 Hungarian 18.01
16 Croatian 19.21
17 Italian_Jewish 19.47
18 Austrian 19.81
19 Sephardic_Jewish 21.04
20 Algerian_Jewish 21.15

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 85.8% Greek_Thessaly + 14.2% Chuvash @ 5.41
2 59.6% Moldavian + 40.4% Libyan_Jewish @ 5.6
3 88% Greek_Thessaly + 12% Mari @ 5.68
4 83.5% Greek_Thessaly + 16.5% East_Finnish @ 5.74
5 83.9% Greek_Thessaly + 16.1% Finnish @ 5.99
6 85% Greek_Thessaly + 15% Erzya @ 6.04
7 84.7% Greek_Thessaly + 15.3% Kargopol_Russian @ 6.12
8 84.7% Greek_Thessaly + 15.3% North_Swedish @ 6.15
9 72.6% Ashkenazi + 27.4% Finnish @ 6.16
10 83.7% Greek_Thessaly + 16.3% Tatar @ 6.18
11 56.7% Hungarian + 43.3% Libyan_Jewish @ 6.22
12 51.6% Libyan_Jewish + 48.4% Ukrainian @ 6.34
13 62.3% Ashkenazi + 37.7% Hungarian @ 6.35
14 73.4% Ashkenazi + 26.6% North_Swedish @ 6.36
15 73.3% Ashkenazi + 26.7% East_Finnish @ 6.38
16 85.1% Greek_Thessaly + 14.9% Southwest_Finnish @ 6.4
17 69.8% Ashkenazi + 30.2% Ukrainian @ 6.4
18 59.2% Ashkenazi + 40.8% Moldavian @ 6.43
19 86.6% Greek_Thessaly + 13.4% Estonian @ 6.44
20 68.6% Serbian + 31.4% Libyan_Jewish @ 6.49

[Dick]

It varies a shitton though.
For example
Romanian 1.

Romanian 2

yes. mlukas says he has no jewish. i'm guessing he either gets serbian or romanian as first pop on k15.

[Dick]

yes. mlukas says he has no jewish. i'm guessing he either gets serbian or romanian as first pop on k15.

i was correct. thanks mlukas.

# Population (source) Distance
1 Serbian 4.14
2 Romanian 4.81
3 Bulgarian 7.49
4 Austrian 9.29
5 Hungarian 9.32
6 Moldavian 10.14
7 Croatian 10.89
8 Greek_Thessaly 12.85
9 East_German 12.97
10 North_Italian 13.97
11 Tuscan 14.54
12 Greek 14.54
13 French 14.58
14 South_Dutch 15.34
15 West_German 15.47
16 Spanish_Galicia 16.27
17 Ukrainian_Lviv 16.54
18 Portuguese 16.74
19 South_Polish 16.95
20 Spanish_Cataluna 16.96

[Mingle]

They act chechen too

Really? What do they do? Are you sure you aren't confusing Transylvanian Saxons with Danube Swabians?

[Mingle]

Btw, the Transylvanian "Saxons" are not really Saxons but Germans from the northern part of the Rhineland region.