Is Denial Of The Armenian Genocide The Same As Holocaust Denial?

[Anglojew]

Holocaust denial is often cited for criticism however on this forum I've learned that almost no Turk will admit to the Armenian Genocide even though;


The Armenian Genocide is acknowledged to have been one of the first modern genocides, because scholars point to the organized manner in which the killings were carried out in order to eliminate the Armenians, and it is the second most-studied case of genocide after the Holocaust.1



The Armenian Genocide also known as the Armenian Holocaust, the Armenian Massacres and, traditionally by Armenians, as Medz Yeghern (Armenian: Մեծ Եղեռն, "Great Crime") was the Ottoman government's systematic extermination of its minority Armenian subjects from their historic homeland within the territory constituting the present-day Republic of Turkey. The starting date is conventionally held to be 24 April 1915, the day Ottoman authorities rounded up and arrested some 250 Armenian intellectuals and community leaders in Constantinople. The genocide was carried out during and after World War I and implemented in two phases: the wholesale killing of the able-bodied male population through massacre and subjection of army conscripts to forced labor, followed by the deportation of women, children, the elderly and infirm on death marches leading to the Syrian desert. Driven forward by military escorts, the deportees were deprived of food and water and subjected to periodic robbery, rape, and massacre. The total number of people killed as a result has been estimated at between 1 and 1.5 million. Other indigenous and Christian ethnic groups such as the Assyrians, the Greeks and other minorities were similarly targeted for extermination by the Ottoman government, and their treatment is considered by many historians to be part of the same genocidal policy2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

I've noticed Turks either deny the genocide completely or sometimes tacitly acknowledge it by seeking to justify it.

Is denial of the Armenian Genocide the same or similar to Holocaust denial?



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Rummel, RJ (1 April 1998), "The Holocaust in Comparative and Historical Perspective", The Journal of Social Issues 3 (2)

2http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

[Musso]

While Turks are beginning to talk openly about Armenian Genocide and accept it more, certain sectors of the Turkish population (esp the radical ones) still deny it. The worst thing is that Genocide denial is a Turkish State policy.

For example:

TURKISH HISTORIANS RECOGNIZING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE:
Halil Berktay • Taner Akçam • Murat Belge • Ahmet Insel • Bulent Peker • Salim Deringil • Ercin Kursat Ahler • Ali Ertem • Murat Peker • Fatma Muge Gocek • Engin Akarli • Koray Caliskan • Dilek Kurban • Yunus Tuncel • Ugur Ümit Üngör

OVER 30.000 TURKS APOLOGIZE:
My conscience does not accept the insensitivity showed to and the denial of the Great Catastrophe that the Ottoman Armenians were subjected to in 1915. I reject this injustice and for my share, I empathize with the feelings and pain of my Armenian brothers and sisters. I apologize to them.

One of the most ironic things every said, is when Turkish PM, Erdogan said this:


Despite glaring evidence to the contrary, the Turkish prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, believes "it is not possible for those who belong to the Muslim faith to carry out genocide". Accordingly, he refuses to accept that Sudanese paramilitaries committed genocidal acts against the population of Darfur, or that Sudan's president, Omar al-Bashir, is guilty of the crimes for which he has been indicted by the International Criminal Court.

Basically not only does Erdogan's Government deny genocide, the PM proclaims that Muslims are incapable of doing genocide and defends war criminal Omar al-Bashir. That says a lot about the person in power in Turkey.

To your question, I do think Armenian Genocide Denial is similar to Holocaust Denial, similar tactics are used, and any Genocide denial is despicable as it just continues the Genocide for the victims.

[Rudel]

It's equally criminalized in France (though it's far from a good thing).

[Anglojew]

While Turks are beginning to talk openly about Armenian Genocide and accept it more, certain sectors of the Turkish population (esp the radical ones) still deny it. The worst thing is that Genocide denial is a Turkish State policy.

For example:

TURKISH HISTORIANS RECOGNIZING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE:
Halil Berktay • Taner Akçam • Murat Belge • Ahmet Insel • Bulent Peker • Salim Deringil • Ercin Kursat Ahler • Ali Ertem • Murat Peker • Fatma Muge Gocek • Engin Akarli • Koray Caliskan • Dilek Kurban • Yunus Tuncel • Ugur Ümit Üngör

OVER 30.000 TURKS APOLOGIZE:
My conscience does not accept the insensitivity showed to and the denial of the Great Catastrophe that the Ottoman Armenians were subjected to in 1915. I reject this injustice and for my share, I empathize with the feelings and pain of my Armenian brothers and sisters. I apologize to them.

One of the most ironic things every said, is when Turkish PM, Erdogan said this:



Basically not only does Erdogan's Government deny genocide, the PM proclaims that Muslims are incapable of doing genocide and defends war criminal Omar al-Bashir. That says a lot about the person in power in Turkey.

To your question, I do think Armenian Genocide Denial is similar to Holocaust Denial, similar tactics are used, and any Genocide denial is despicable as it just continues the Genocide for the victims.

I agree. It's deplorable Israel hasn't recognised the genocide. They've put their interests above morality in this case.

[Anglojew]

It's equally criminalized in France (though it's far from a good thing).

I don't think either should be outlawed. I don't believe in censorship (except calling for violence). These issues should be discussed.

[Musso]

I agree. It's deplorable Israel hasn't recognised the genocide. They've put their interests above morality in this case.

I know many Israelis and Israeli politicians alike both recognize and want official recognition, but I guess it hasn't been done yet for the fear of Turkish backlash.

That being said:

Secret visit of Armenian speaker to Israel
9 July 2014 - 8:29pm
Peter Lyukimson, Israel. Exclusively for Vestnik Kavkaza

According to rumors in the political circles of Israel, the chairman of the Armenian parliament, Galust Saakyan, has recently visited the country.

The most interesting thing is that there was no official confirmation of the visit. The website of the Israeli Knesset and Israeli mass media didn’t report on it. At the same time, information on the visit was presented to Vestnik Kavkaza by a very reliable source.

The source states that Saakyan met some representatives of the top leadership of Israel and discussed two issues. The first touched on recognition of “the Armenian genocide” of 1915 by Israel, when its 100th anniversary will be marked. The second issue was devoted to military cooperation between Israel and Azerbaijan, which concerns Europe so much.

Political and diplomatic circles of Israel not only haven't commented on Saaksyan’s visit, but don’t even want to talk about it at all.

It should be noted that the positions of supporters of recognition of the genocide of 1915 by Israel have strengthened, as the newly-elected president Reuven Rivlin (his predecessor Shimon Peres thinks that Israel should be neutral on the issue), the speaker of the Knesset Yuli Edelstein, and the deputy Foreign Minister, Zaev Elkin, are supporters of the step.

Earlier, Elkin tried to provide official recognition of the genocide of 1915 through the parliamentary commission on education, but he was told that the issue should be considered by the commission on international affairs and defense. At the moment Zaev Elkin is the chairman of the commission, and this gives him certain advantages.

[wvwvw]

Not only turks deny the Armenian genocide, in which Armenians lost the bulk of their population but they continue their genocide to this day.

"Turkey's 16-year trade embargo against Armenia is one of the longest such sanctions in the world. Ankara enforced the embargo in solidarity with Azerbaijan"

The disastrous effects of the turkish embargo on the Armenian economy are multiplied by the fact that Armenia is a landlocked country with limited trade routes.

[wvwvw]

It's equally criminalized in France (though it's far from a good thing).

I think it's a good thing AS LONG AS Turkey continues to deny the genocide

[Anglojew]

Not only turks deny the Armenian genocide, in which Armenians lost the bulk of their population but they continue their genocide to this day.

"Turkey's 16-year trade embargo against Armenia is one of the longest such sanctions in the world. Ankara enforced the embargo in solidarity with Azerbaijan"

The disastrous effects of the turkish embargo on the Armenian economy are multiplied by the fact that Armenia is a landlocked country with limited trade routes.

They need to follow Israel's example after 70 years of the Arab Boycott. The boycott has had the opposite effect because Israel had to create it's own industries because it couldn't rely on others.

[wvwvw]

What i find comical is that Turkey was first country in the world to recognise a Bosnian genocide. Turks never miss a chance to call Serbs "butchers of the balkans", "genociders". "baby killers" etc and yet the deny a true holocaust that happened in their country.

It is also ironic how Kurds recognise their participation in the genocide and apologise but Turks do not. This fact has vastly improved the image of Kurds in my eyes. Kurds ARE more civilized than Turks after all.

[wvwvw]

They need to follow Israel's example after 70 years of the Arab Boycott. The boycott has had the opposite effect because Israel had to create it's own industries because it couldn't rely on others.

It's not that easy. Israel has the backing of the USA. Armenia has noone. It is a powerless country of 3 million people surrounded by hostile neighbours and Turkey the regional bully also happens to be a geostrategic ally of America.

[Anglojew]

It's not that easy. Israel has the backing of the USA. Armenia has noone. It is a powerless country of 3 million people surrounded by hostile neighbours and Turkey the regional bully also happens to be a geostrategic ally of America.

Russia has a base in Armenia. Isn't Russia the major ally?

[wvwvw]

Russia has a base in Armenia. Isn't Russia the major ally?

They do, although Russia views Armenia more as a protectorate. It's nothing like the relationship that Israel has with USA

[Anglojew]

They do, although Russia views Armenia more as a protectorate. It's nothing like the relationship that Israel has with USA

Obama is no friend of Israel.

[wvwvw]

Obama is no friend of Israel.

Maybe so, but USA has a strong Jewish presence in positions that count and a powerful Jewish lobby. Jews have contributed a lot to America and share genuine friendly ties with USA. It is also in the interests of USA to have a friendly ally in a hostile region.

[Anglojew]

Maybe so, but USA has a strong Jewish presence in positions that count and a powerful Jewish lobby. Jews have contributed a lot to America and share genuine friendly ties with USA. It is also in the interests of USA to have a friendly ally in a hostile region.

Yes, but Jews are also prominent in Anti-Israel circles for instance eg George Soros, Noam Chomsky etc

Many prominent Jews a in government, media and academia are ignorant self-haters who should be forced to live in Gaza as traitors.

[Fear Fiain]

Holocaust denial is often cited for criticism however on this forum I've learned that almost no Turk will admit to the Armenian Genocide even though;





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

I've noticed Turks either deny the genocide completely or sometimes tacitly acknowledge it by seeking to justify it.

Is denial of the Armenian Genocide the same or similar to Holocaust denial?



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Rummel, RJ (1 April 1998), "The Holocaust in Comparative and Historical Perspective", The Journal of Social Issues 3 (2)

2http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

I would say it's worse. now before all you jews thumb me down, hear me out: a lot of wartime propaganda has exaggerated nazi atrocities. Things once universally believed are now universally discounted, such as human skin lampshades, jew hair mattresses, etc.
My friend David Cole is jewish, and pro-israel, and when he came out questioning the numbers and attacking soviet tampering with archaeology because "the exaggerations and lies make room for people to deny the real horrors. "
So yes, some people say nothing but deportations happened. I take the middle of the road stance because I've read Goebbel's diaries and think that a certain amount of mass execution of prisoners suspected of sabotage without any form of process began in 42-43, and massive slave labour as well as deportations happened.


Now, I've lived around Armenians most of my life, and I do think they make a big hooplah about remembrance in a whiny way -
but there's no exaggerations. The Armenians claim they were marched out and many raped and shot, similar to the trail of tears but with a lot more raping and killing.
There are no fantastic tails of bars of soap or of lampshades.

There is ONLY the claim of mass murder, rape, and forced dislocation and dispossession.
To deny that is bullshit and can be done only out of national arrogance or ethnic hate.

[Myth]

I think it is, many Armenians and Assyrians were massacred, it was a genocide .

[legolasbozo]

Zionist fucks tend to think has right to do anything after holocost. Back in the days, After collapse of ottoman empire people suffered to much, especially last days ittihad and terakki hijacked ottoman tolerence and butchered armenians with kurds. That is fact, but at least we are trying to deal with our past, we started a peace process with kurds and made a few step to armenians (their hatred ended everything though)

But look at israel, that bitches killing muslim civillians, stealing their land and killing innocent people. This is what you are, you get free pass to kill after 48 from western world, they allow you to do whatever you want to do. This is western world style, they keep silence when something happens, but after they pretend like they are justice angel. Briefly fuck off.

[Dombra]

I might say that it is even worse to deny the Armenian genocide. It is an act to support a government that is more than willing to distort history and stay in power. Germany however is facing worldwide propaganda and hate so individual deniers are nothing and denying countries are also under pressure

[Musso]

Russia has a base in Armenia. Isn't Russia the major ally?

Yes Russia is a major ally, but the real major investor in Armenia's economy, is the Armenian Diaspora. I believe around 60% of investments come from the large Armenian Diaspora. While our business climate has improved, there is still much room for improvement. Armenia right now is growing a lot in IT sector and also tourism. But being blockaded from two sides, with a Southern neighbor that has a lot of Western Sanctions (and furthermore the border is small and transportation infrastructure meagre), and with no access to the sea, it is tough.

That being said, among the four countries (Turkey, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Iran) we are one of the freest in terms of media freedom, democracy, and economic freedom. Actually in economic freedom we are on par with some Western European countries.

[Myth]

I honestly didn't know anything before about the Armenian genocide as they don't teach it in american schools, I knew Assyrians who talked about it, and I did some research and was disgusted to see how those poor people were treated and murdered yet the world kept quiet about it. I think that its like Jewish history, the world knows about it and is condemned to repeat it, but today Armenians and Assyrians are still persecuted in the middle east, I think it is important to recognize the genocide committed against them. Its like in the us, we don't recognize the genocide against native Americans but everyone knows it happened, history is white washed that there were military campaigns but it was nothing short of a genocide.

I've never met a Armenian before but it sounds like they are good people.

[legolasbozo]

I honestly didn't know anything before about the Armenian genocide as they don't teach it in american schools, I knew Assyrians who talked about it, and I did some research and was disgusted to see how those poor people were treated and murdered yet the world kept quiet about it. I think that its like Jewish history, the world knows about it and is condemned to repeat it, but today Armenians and Assyrians are still persecuted in the middle east, I think it is important to recognize the genocide committed against them. Its like in the us, we don't recognize the genocide against native Americans but everyone knows it happened, history is white washed that there were military campaigns but it was nothing short of a genocide.

I've never met a Armenian before but it sounds like they are good people.

Yeah we can make an analogy, think yourself as western world and you still keep quiet this killings nowadays happening in palestine right? This is what west did yesterday, they were killing algerians, indians, latin americans but they blame turks for armenian issue. 21th century opressers were turks and israel, at least we started to peace process with kurds you are still killing palestinians, murders.

[Musso]

I honestly didn't know anything before about the Armenian genocide as they don't teach it in american schools, I knew Assyrians who talked about it, and I did some research and was disgusted to see how those poor people were treated and murdered yet the world kept quiet about it. I think that its like Jewish history, the world knows about it and is condemned to repeat it, but today Armenians and Assyrians are still persecuted in the middle east, I think it is important to recognize the genocide committed against them. Its like in the us, we don't recognize the genocide against native Americans but everyone knows it happened, history is white washed that there were military campaigns but it was nothing short of a genocide.

I've never met a Armenian before but it sounds like they are good people.

I guess depends on the region of the US and the school. There are many Armenian Genocide study programs in the US, nonetheless, but I think most of it is in the Northeast and West Coast.

Here's one at Rutgers: http://www.ncas.rutgers.edu/center-study-genocide-conflict-resolution-and-human-rights/armenian-genocide-project

It's a very sad history that till this day affects us. Denial of a Genocide is just the continuation of it.

[legolasbozo]

I guess depends on the region of the US and the school. There are many Armenian Genocide study programs in the US, nonetheless, but I think most of it is in the Northeast and West Coast.

Here's one at Rutgers: http://www.ncas.rutgers.edu/center-study-genocide-conflict-resolution-and-human-rights/armenian-genocide-project

It's a very sad history that till this day affects us. Denial of a Genocide is just the continuation of it.

May i ask you a question? What do you think about the "circassian issue"? Do you think russia made a genocide or butchered circassians?

[roro4721]

Of course it is, we now know that Turkey's German allies were in Anatolia while all this happened and learned how to slaughter a population because of them. Everything in history is connected and I believe if the Turks were punished for the genocidal killing of their Christian minorities then maybe the Holocaust wouldn't have happened. Hitler did say "who after all remembers the annihilation of the Armenians" to encourage his followers that they, much like the Turks would get away with the genocidal slaughter of their Jewish population.

So far, I'll I've heard for Turks who deny the genocide is that the Armenians deserved it (same stuff you heard about Jews back when, things like they are against Germany, they are greedy, money hungry and a threat to our economy) , even though they not only killed and deported their Armenian population, but also the Pontic Greek and Assyrian populations as well. Erodogan says stuff like if there was a genocide why are Armenians alive today? That is quite laughable. Does he not realize that this was against their own Ottoman citizens and that Armenians from todays Republic of Armenia (and yesterdays Russian Empire) were not victims of genocide? Personally my family, like most Western Armenian families survived because our ancestors were deported and left orphaned. They somehow miraculously found orphanages that would take them in. My ancestors did not deserve to die and saying this nearly 100 years later shows how genocidal propaganda is still ingrained into the minds of todays citizens of the Turkish Rep.

[Yaroslav]

The Holocaust is pure bullshit. Haven't researched the Armenian Genocide, so I'll believe it unless I'm proven wrong.

[Musso]

May i ask you a question? What do you think about the "circassian issue"? Do you think russia made a genocide or butchered circassians?

I'm not very well informed on that, unfortunately, but I'd be open to read about it and make an opinion.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Holocaust denial for Germans is usually the belief things are exaggerated. I can get behind that to a slight degree at least, some of it is propaganda from communists in the first place.

Turks however, come out and say it's an outright falsehood. Even though in reality greeks and armenians were once the entirety of anatolia and only a small amount of turks originally migrated there. Yet people talk of the ottoman tolerance lol.

People act like white genocide is something new. However it's quite common and it's how the middle east got to be how it is today, and how turkey stopped being european. When europeans are gone from europe in a few centuries every trace they ever existed will be gone as well. The only hint will be a very rare blonde person popping up which they will claim has always been present but very rare, much like they claim in ME today.

[legolasbozo]

I'm not very well informed on that, unfortunately, but I'd be open to read about it and make an opinion.


Ok bro, i m looking forward to see your respond after you get informed about the issue.

[gültekin]

The Armenian Revolt (1894 - 1920)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXHea26RDAY

This video tells the other side of the story much ignored in the West: Armenian terrorism,insurgency, revolts, treason, territorial demands and the Turkish and other Muslim losses suffered at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries. The Armenian lobby can no longer hide behind "denier" accusations after The European Court of Human Rights issued its verdict in Perincek vs Switzerland that events of 1915 cannot be classified as genocide. Mutual suffering, shared pain, and fiar memory are the operative words here. Watch this excellent film to learn more

[Musso]

Ok bro, i m looking forward to see your respond after you get informed about the issue.

Do you have any recommended articles/reading material?

[roro4721]

There is nothing "fair" nor "shared" about the complete eradication of the entire native Christian population of Anatolia, Gultekin.

[Kamal900]

I truly believe in freedom of speech, and while we can talk anything we want, we cant even question certain historical events that are taboo in the western societies, like putting most revisionists in prison simply because they asked questions about it, and we're only hear one side of the story. We believed in the past that the Katyn massacre was orchestrated by the Nazis, which in reality, the communists were the ones who did it. I believe in full freedom of speech(no censorship), even if its hateful, should be permitted for as long as they don't invoke violence and etc. We're only allowed to hear the Armenian's side of the story, but the turks aren't allowed to speak theirs. Also, its very interesting on how the world focus on what happened to the Jews in WW2, and they literally get millions(if not billions) of euros from Germany alone(compensation supposedly), but at the same time, we never hear about what the communists did to the innocent Russians, Ukrainians(holodomer), Hungarians, and also the Germans(millions were raped and killed by the communists after the war), nor do we commemorate these people.

I don't deny on what happened to the Jews during WW2, and many thousands died(disease, starvation, and etc), and many were driven from their homes and placed in camps against their will, and really, there were plenty of Jews who didn't agreed on what some Jews in Bavaria did either(like what Rosa Luxembourg or Kert Aiszner did). But at the same time, people should have the right to question and debate any historical event without being persecuted for "hate speech" or "hate thought". People can recognize the genocides of other peoples without jeopardizing their civil rights(free speech).

[Hayalet]

Is Denial Of The Armenian Genocide The Same As Holocaust Denial?
This is a strange question to ask in this forum. Every second poster here is at least skeptical about the Holocaust.

[Cristiano viejo]

It´s not the same. While Jewish Holocaust never happened, Armenian Holocaust did.

[Hayalet]

Back in the days, After collapse of ottoman empire people suffered to much, especially last days ittihad and terakki hijacked ottoman tolerence and butchered armenians with kurds. That is fact, but at least we are trying to deal with our past, we started a peace process with kurds and made a few step to armenians (their hatred ended everything though)
Ermeni katliamları tarihi Abdülhamit'le başlatılır. Öğren de gel. Öyle işi İttihatçılara yıkayım, biraz da AKP propagandası yapayım olmuyor. Üç kuruşa beş köfte yok.

[Kamal900]

This video tells the other side of the story much ignored in the West: Armenian terrorism,insurgency, revolts, treason, territorial demands and the Turkish and other Muslim losses suffered at the hands of Armenian revolutionaries. The Armenian lobby can no longer hide behind "denier" accusations after The European Court of Human Rights issued its verdict in Perincek vs Switzerland that events of 1915 cannot be classified as genocide. Mutual suffering, shared pain, and fiar memory are the operative words here. Watch this excellent film to learn more

People should see both sides of the story, and really, its extremely biased on how the Armenians through their lobbies(Not as powerful as the jewish lobbies in America) are trying to show to the world on how inhumane the Turkish people are, and that they(armenians) are 100 percent victims. I believe in freedom of speech without any limits(and shouldnt be limited to a few groups of people either), and the Armeian genocide must be questioned in court and debate(I heard that Armenia refused to open its archives, and that when turkey invited Armenia to debate this issue in Turkey, the armenian historian never went there). Its pure vulgarity of people that we should only feel sorry for some groups of people while ignoring the suffering of others.

[roro4721]

People should see both sides of the story, and really, its extremely biased on how the Armenians through their lobbies(Not as powerful as the jewish lobbies in America) are trying to show to the world on how inhumane the Turkish people are, and that they(armenians) are 100 percent victims. I believe in freedom of speech without any limits(and shouldnt be limited to a few groups of people either), and the Armeian genocide must be questioned in court and debate(I heard that Armenia refused to open its archives, and that when turkey invited Armenia to debate this issue in Turkey, the armenian historian never went there). Its pure vulgarity of people that we should only feel sorry for some groups of people while ignoring the suffering of others.

Your I'm not taking sides approach does more harm than good. Turks outnumber Armenians by like a million to one. The wealth and population of the Turkish lobby is nowhere near that of the Armenians. If the Armenian Genocide had no merit, it would've never been recognized by various countries. Armenia/Armenians have gained nothing from various countries recognizing the genocide. The Ottoman Empire did not fall victim to a bunch of villagers in the East. Their crimes were not only against EVERY single Armenian, but also every Christian in the region. There is no justification, there is no bias, Turks were not killed and deported out of Anatolia; power in Anatolia was in and still remains safely in Turkish hands. Historians (and the inventor of the word 'genocide') overwhelmingly agree that what happened in 1915 was genocide. I'd rather not take these strange propaganda videos seriously. I'd also like to mention that the genocide did not happen in Armenia, it happened in modern-day Turkey and I don't see how many records an Armenia that was a part of the Russian Empire in 1915 would have. The eradication of the Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian populations was not justified and even if one believes it was it does not change the fact that it was the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

[Partizan]

Even comparing Holocaust with Armenian relocation is dumb. I have never seen such pics of Jews in Germany:
http://cetinbayramoglusorun.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/a1_177.jpg

What happened was that:
1. Armenians cooperated with Russian invaders and started to kill and rape Turkish(as well as Kurdish) civilians.
2. Union and Progress Party decided to relocate Gregorian Armenians to Syria, in order to obstruct a Turkish-Armenian bloodshed.
3. On the migration road, some Kurdish gangs loot the caravans and they kill some Armenians.(Is it massacre? Yes. But the responsible ones are Kurds.)

P.S: There were not even 1,5 Million Armenians in Anatolia at that time, at most 1,2 million. So Turks have to kill all of Armenians and than create 300.000 Armenians and have to kill them too, lol.

[Svipdag]

Obama is no friend of Israel.

Obama has no friends.

[RussiaPrussia]

yes

[Kamal900]

Your I'm not taking sides approach does more harm than good. Turks outnumber Armenians by like a million to one. The wealth and population of the Turkish lobby is nowhere near that of the Armenians. If the Armenian Genocide had no merit, it would've never been recognized by various countries. Armenia/Armenians have gained nothing from various countries recognizing the genocide. The Ottoman Empire did not fall victim to a bunch of villagers in the East. Their crimes were not only against EVERY single Armenian, but also every Christian in the region. There is no justification, there is no bias, Turks were not killed and deported out of Anatolia; power in Anatolia was in and still remains safely in Turkish hands. Historians (and the inventor of the word 'genocide') overwhelmingly agree that what happened in 1915 was genocide. I'd rather not take these strange propaganda videos seriously. I'd also like to mention that the genocide did not happen in Armenia, it happened in modern-day Turkey and I don't see how many records an Armenia that was a part of the Russian Empire in 1915 would have. The eradication of the Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian populations was not justified and even if one believes it was it does not change the fact that it was the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

It seems that you do somehow agree that there were Armenian gorilla attacks against Turks and Kurds in Eastern Anatolia. Have you heard the hunchacks and the dashnaks? If you havent then i can link the information about them.

According to Louise Nalbandian, a leading Armenian researcher, the Hunchak program stated the following:

"Agitation and terror were needed to elevate the spirit of the people. The party aimed at terrorizing the Ottoman Government, thus contributing toward lowering the prestige of that regime and working toward its complete disintegration. The Hunchaks wanted to annihilate the most dangerous of the Armenian and Turkish individuals who were then working for the government as well as to destroy all spies and informers. To assist them in carrying out all of these terrorist acts, the party was to organize an exclusive branch specifically devoted to performing acts of terrorism. The most opportune time to institute the general rebellion for carrying out the immediate objectives was when Turkey was engaged in war".

[Nalbandian, Louise, Armenian Revolutionary Movement, University of California Press, 1963]

K.S. Papazian wrote as follows of the Dashnak Society:

"The purpose of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnak) is to achieve political and economic freedom in Turkish Armenia by means of rebellion. Terrorism has, from the beginning, been adopted by the Dashnak Committee of the Caucasus, as a policy or a method for achieving its ends. Under the heading "means" in their program adopted in 1892, Method No. 8 is as follows: "To wage fight and to subject to terrorism the government officials, the traitors…". Method No 11 is: "To subject the government institutions to destruction and pillage".

[Papazian, K.S., Patriotism Perverted, Boston Baker Press, 1934]

(full details)
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/terrorists.htm


http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/armenian-slayers_russian.htm
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/nyt-musa-dagh.htm
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/nyt-armens-fight-turks.htm

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/expose1894propag.htm

Quotes:

"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
1914-15-16."

Kapriel Serope Papazian, Patriotism Perverted, Boston Baker Press, 1934, pg. 38

"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the
Armenians in the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Muslim) villages
that are utterly defenseless and bombarded these villages
with artillery and they murder the inhabitants, pillage the
village and often burn the village."

Admiral Mark Bristol, Bristol Papers, General Correspondence: Container #32: Bristol to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.

" All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation"

Hamparsum Boyaciyan, nicknamed "Murad," a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from Mikael Varandean, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun.

MURAD (or "Muradyan"):
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/good-bad-ugly-armenians.htm#murad

The Good, Bad and Ugly Armenians of the Ottoman Empire:
http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/good-bad-ugly-armenians.htm#murad

Hitler's Armenian Genocide Quote:
http://www.armeniangenocidedebate.com/hitlers-armenian-genocide-quote

You can read more about the events of WW1(armenian genocide, and before that) in any of these two sites, they're full articles and references about the whole thing. Hearing the other side of this historical event is very enlightening to say the least. The reason why these countries recognize the Armenian genocide is mainly due to relations with the armenians(through lobbying and political influence, as well as religious reasons as well), but other western countries side with Turkey for the same reason too(supporting turkey mostly due to NATO and other things). What France did was against freedom of speech by passing laws in forbidding the people in ever questioning that historical event(strangely that the circassians, central africans, russians, germans, ukrainians, poles, tatars and other people, who also were genocided and massacred, dont get the same treatment as the Armenians or the Jews).

The only way to truly know the exact truth of the matter is to debate it in court in a civilized manner. What happened to people like Ernest Zundel couldn't be justified, and free speech must be protected from the influence and control by any group of people. Truth does not fear investigation, only lies.

[roro4721]

Are you really going to copy/paste the talltalearmenian website?
Sorry, but I can't trust a website with a logo that looks like it was made on Windows Paint

http://i62.tinypic.com/1zlaws6.png

Nonetheless, if everything on that website was true, it still doesn't change the fact that the Armenian, Greek, and Assyrians population were eradicated from Anatolia by Ottoman forces during a genocide.

[Kamal900]

Are you really going to copy/paste the talltalearmenian website?
Sorry, but I can't trust a website with a logo that looks like it was made on Windows Paint

http://i62.tinypic.com/1zlaws6.png

Nonetheless, if everything on that website was true, it still doesn't change the fact that the Armenian, Greek, and Assyrians population were eradicated from Anatolia by Ottoman forces during a genocide.

The website may look cheap, but you should read the references and sources of all the information there. It does enlighten to some people that the Armenians, like the Jews in pre-WW2, werent some kind of innocent puppies. Of course, i dont believe in collective punishment either, but at the same time, was there any proof that the young turks or from Talat Pasha's orders in exterminating all Armenians? Due to the series of gorilla attacks by Armenian separatists to take all of eastern Anatolia by kicking the turks out of the area by violence, it seems that the Ottomans wanted to take the Armenains out of Anatolia by immigrating them(not genocide or killing them). As i said, i dont claim i know 100 percent of the event, but at the same time, the Armenian genocide shouldn't be a law in many countries in forbidding people in questioning it. Turks and Armenians need to come together and debate the issue in a civilized manner, and they should be truthful and honest about it as well.

Do you know Ernest Zundel right? Do you think what happened to him and his family was justified simply because he questioned the holocaust, and had a different opinion on it? His house was bombed by the Jewish Defense League and their lackeys, and yet, he was a danger to the society in Canada by the Canadian government(he's a pacifist, and he didnt engaged any criminal activities except questioning the holocaust).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp85rXHDJCo

[Illancha]

It's funny how criticising some genocide claims could land you in prison whereas merely mentioning others could earn you a terrorist sympathiser badge.

Goodbye, cruel world.

[Musso]

Geoffrey Robertson QC is founder and Head of Doughty Street Chambers. He has appeared in many countries as counsel in leading cases in constitutional, criminal and international law, and served as first President of the UN War Crimes Court in Serra Leone:


“ In 1915 the Turkish government, then in league with Germany, faced an allied attack in the Dardanelles and a prospective incursion by Russian forces on its eastern front. These circumstances do not, however, justify its orders to deport some 2 million Armenians from Eastern Turkey and its infliction upon them of conditions which were calculated to, and did in fact, bring about the destruction of a significant part of that group. HMG condemned this action at the time as “a crime against humanity” and promised that its perpetrators would be punished. But it was not until 1948 that international law recognised the crime of genocide. HMG has welcomed the recent establishment of diplomatic relations between Armenia and Turkey and the protocol under which they have agreed to examine objectively these events, and hopes that the Turkish government will abolish section 301 of its Penal Code which would otherwise impede such examination. HMG makes clear that should the same events occur today, in any country with a similar history to that of Turkey in 1915, there can be no doubt that the Genocide Convention would be engaged and would require prosecutions for that crime as well as for crimes against humanity.”

http://www.groong.com/Geoffrey-Robertson-QC-Genocide.pdf


That this assembly of the Association of Genocide Scholars in its conference held in Montreal, June 11–13, 1997, reaffirms that the mass murder of over a million Armenians in Turkey in 1915 is a case of genocide which conforms to the statutes of the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. It further condemns the denial of the Armenian Genocide by the Turkish government and its official and unofficial agents and supporters.
— Among the prominent scholars who supported the resolution were: Roger W. Smith (College of William & Mary; President of AGS); Israel Charny (Hebrew University, Jerusalem); Helen Fein (Past President AGS); Frank Chalk (Concordia University, Montreal); Ben Kiernan (Yale University); Anthony Oberschall (University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill); Mark Levene (Warwick University, UK); Rhoda Howard (McMaster University, Canada), Michael Freeman (Essex University, UK), Gunnar Heinsohn (Bremen University, Germany)


In February 2002 an independent legal opinion commissioned by the International Center for Transitional Justice, concluded that the Ottoman massacre of Armenians in 1915–1918 "include[d] all of the elements of the crime of genocide as defined in the [Genocide] Convention, and legal scholars as well as historians, politicians, journalists and other people would be justified in continuing to so describe them".[20] From page 2 of the report:

This memorandum was drafted by independent legal counsel based on a request made to the International Center for Transitional Justice ("ICTJ"), on the basis of the Memorandum of Understanding ("MoU") entered into by The Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission ("TARC") on July 12, 2002 and presentations by members of TARC on September 10, 2002.
From page 18, D. Conclusion:

... Because the other three elements identified above have been definitively established, the Events, viewed collectively, can thus be said to include all of the elements of the crime of genocide as defined in the Convention, and legal scholars as well as historians, politicians, journalists and other people would be justified in continuing to so describe them.
---
Recognition of the Armenian Genocide
The fact of the Armenian Genocide by the Ottoman government has been documented, recognized, and affirmed in the form of media and eyewitness reports, laws, resolutions, and statements by many historians, states and international organizations. The complete catalogue of all documents categorizing the 1915 wholesale massacre of the Armenian population in Ottoman Empire as a premeditated and thoroughly executed act of genocide, is extensive.

• 126 HOLOCAUST SCHOLARS
affirm the incontestable fact of the armenian genocide and urge western democrates to officially recognize it.
(Source) (View New York Times article)

• 150 DISTINGUISHED SCHOLARS & WRITERS
commemorate the Armenian Genocide of 1915 and condemn the Turkish government’s denial of this crime against humanity.
(Source)

• TURKISH HISTORIANS RECOGNIZING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE:
Halil Berktay • Taner Akçam • Murat Belge • Ahmet Insel • Bulent Peker • Salim Deringil • Ercin Kursat Ahler • Ali Ertem • Murat Peker • Fatma Muge Gocek • Engin Akarli • Koray Caliskan • Dilek Kurban • Yunus Tuncel • Ugur Ümit Üngör

Brief list of those organizations which have acknowledged the Armenian Genocide:

• Mercosur Parliament, Resolution – November, 2007
• Anti-Defamation League (ADL) – August, 2007
• The Elie Wiesel Foundation for Humanity – April 9, 2007
• Human Rights Association of Turkey, Istanbul Branch – April 24, 2006
• International Center for Transitional Justice Report Prepared for TARC – February 10, 2003
• European Alliance of YMCAs – July 20, 2002
• Council of Europe, Parliamentary Assembly, Declaration – April 24, 2001
• Le Ligue des Droits de l’Homme – May 16, 1998
• Council of Europe, Parliamentary Assembly, Declaration – April 24, 1998
• The Association of Genocide Scholars – June 13, 1997
• Parlamenta Kurdistane Li Derveyi Welat – April 24, 1996
• Union of American Hebrew Congregations – November 7, 1989
• Permanent Peoples’ Tribunal, Verdict of the Tribunal – April 16, 1984
• World Council of Churches – August 10, 1983
• UN Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities – July 2, 1985
• UN War Crimes Commission Report – May 28, 1948
• UN General Assembly Resolution – December 9, 1948

[legolasbozo]

Ermeni katliamları tarihi Abdülhamit'le başlatılır. Öğren de gel. Öyle işi İttihatçılara yıkayım, biraz da AKP propagandası yapayım olmuyor. Üç kuruşa beş köfte yok.

Yoo akp politikası değil, şerif hüseyin denen iti hicaz'a gönderen de ittihad terakki, ermenileri kesen de ittihad ve terakki. Koskoca imparatorluğu kuşa çevirip bir sürü uydurma savaş yazan, zırva bir tarih oluşturan osmanlıyı tarihe gömdüğünü sananların zamanı doldu. 120 sene bu ülkeyi asıl sahiplerinin elinden aldığını sananlar bitti şükürler olsun. Kpss'ya girdin mi bilmiyorum, o zırva tarihin z'si yoktu çok şükür sorularda. Böyle böyle silinecek zihniyetiniz ve putlarınız.

[Hayalet]

Yoo akp politikası değil, şerif hüseyin denen iti hicaz'a gönderen de ittihad terakki, ermenileri kesen de ittihad ve terakki. Koskoca imparatorluğu kuşa çevirip bir sürü uydurma savaş yazan, zırva bir tarih oluşturan osmanlıyı tarihe gömdüğünü sananların zamanı doldu. 120 sene bu ülkeyi asıl sahiplerinin elinden aldığını sananlar bitti şükürler olsun. Kpss'ya girdin mi bilmiyorum, o zırva tarihin z'si yoktu çok şükür sorularda. Böyle böyle silinecek zihniyetiniz ve putlarınız.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamidian_massacres

Öğren de gel cahil cühela.

[legolasbozo]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamidian_massacres

Öğren de gel cahil cühela.

Eğer masumlar katledildiyse Allah bunun hesabını sorsun abdulhamit'ten, dersim'de çoluk çocuk katledilişinin emrini veren mustafa kemal'den de çıksın, gezi'de öldürülen çocukları terörist gibi gösteren, polis destan yazı diyen, ölmüş çocuğun annesini yuhalatan recep tayyip'ten de çıksın acısı.

İşte seninle benim farkım bu, sen kişileri putlaştırırsın günümüz akp gençliği gibi, benim haksız olanın karşısında her zaman söyleyecek sözüm var şükürler olsun ki.

[Hayalet]

Eğer masumlar katledildiyse Allah bunun hesabını sorsun abdulhamit'ten, dersim'de çoluk çocuk katledilişinin emrini veren mustafa kemal'den de çıksın, gezi'de öldürülen çocukları terörist gibi gösteren, polis destan yazı diyen, ölmüş çocuğun annesini yuhalatan recep tayyip'ten de çıksın acısı.

İşte seninle benim farkım bu, sen kişileri putlaştırırsın günümüz akp gençliği gibi, benim haksız olanın karşısında her zaman söyleyecek sözüm var şükürler olsun ki.
İki dakika vicdan mastürbasyonu yapmadan, mantıksal argümanlar üreterek konuş.

Ben diyorum ki Ermeni meselesi öyle kolay kolay İttihatçı/Cehape zihniyetinin üzerine yıkılamaz, çünkü katliamlar vs. Abdülhamit'le başlatılır. Sen ne diyorsun buna? Bi bok diyemiyorsun, çünkü bi bok bildiğin yok.

[legolasbozo]

İki dakika vicdan mastürbasyonu yapmadan, mantıksal argümanlar üreterek konuş.

Ben diyorum ki Ermeni meselesi öyle kolay kolay İttihatçı/Cehape zihniyetinin üzerine yıkılamaz, çünkü katliamlar vs. Abdülhamit'le başlatılır. Sen ne diyorsun buna? Bi bok diyemiyorsun, çünkü bi bok bildiğin yok.

Yıllardır meseleeri konuşturdunuz mu arkadaş? Fransa ermeni tasarısını geçirdi, e bizim ülkemizde daha beter inkar yasaları yok muydu? Kim öldürdü hrant dink'i? İttihad ve terakki zihniyeti, yobaz kemalistler tasvife edildi de en azından kürt ve ermeni meselelerini daha özgürce konuşur oldu toplum. Sizin ırkçı, faşist zihniyetinizle bir milim gidilir miydi? Bir bok bildiğim yoktur, doğrudur çünkü bana "ermeniler ayaklandı sürülürken yolda öldüler" diye öğretildi mesele, sizin leş zihniyetiniz neredeyse "muz kabuğuna basıp düşerek öldüler" diyecek kadar kör ve kibirli. Doğruları öğretselerdi o zaman, abdülhamit panislamizm e geçince ermeniler tasviye edilmek zorunda kaldı, ittihad ve terakki alman subaylar tarafından gayri nizami harp için eğitildiler ama ermeniler de türk ve kürt köylerini yakıp yıktılar diyerek objektif bir şekilde anlatsaydı o zaman senin leş ırkçı zihniyetin.

[Hayalet]

Yıllardır meseleeri konuşturdunuz mu arkadaş?
Kim konuşturmadı? Ve biz kimiz?


Fransa ermeni tasarısını geçirdi, e bizim ülkemizde daha beter inkar yasaları yok muydu?
Yok. 301 vardı dolaylı yoldan alakalı, hala var.


Kim öldürdü hrant dink'i?
Kim öldürdü? AKP'ye oy verme ihtimali CHP'ye oy verme ihtimalinden 20 kat daha yüksek olan biri öldürdü. Ayrıca AKP hükümeti döneminde öldürdü.


İttihad ve terakki zihniyeti, yobaz kemalistler tasvife edildi de en azından kürt ve ermeni meselelerini daha özgürce konuşur oldu toplum.
Kimsenin bir şeyi konuştuğu yok. RTE ile Öcalan pazarlık yapıyorlar ve bu pazarlığın içeriğini kimse bilmiyor.


Bir bok bildiğim yoktur, doğrudur çünkü bana "ermeniler ayaklandı sürülürken yolda öldüler" diye öğretildi mesele, sizin leş zihniyetiniz neredeyse "muz kabuğuna basıp düşerek öldüler" diyecek kadar kör ve kibirli. Doğruları öğretselerdi o zaman, abdülhamit panislamizm e geçince ermeniler tasviye edilmek zorunda kaldı, ittihad ve terakki alman subaylar tarafından gayri nizami harp için eğitildiler ama ermeniler de türk ve kürt köylerini yakıp yıktılar diyerek objektif bir şekilde anlatsaydı o zaman senin leş ırkçı zihniyetin.
29 yaşında adamsın, sana kim ne öğretecek? Gelip burada bu konu üzerine kelam edeceksen aç oku bir şeyler.

Uzun lafın kısası, Kürt ve Alevi meselelerinin aksine, Ermeni meselesi İzmirli CHP'lilerin ve Erzurumlu AKP'lileri aşağı yukarı aynı pozisyonda oldukları milli bir meseledir. Öyle mal gibi "İttihatçılar Osmanlı hoşgörüsünü bitirip Ermeniler'i kestiler" dersen adama gülerler. İttihatçıların iktidara gelişinde Abdülhamit'ten illallah eden Ermeniler'in desteğinin payı vardır bir kere.

[legolasbozo]

Hrant dink'i gladyo'nun türkiye ayağı derin güçler öldürdü. Adnan menderes'i asanlardan tut, eşref bitlis'i öldürenler hep bunlardır. Türkiye'de mustafa kemal'in ölümünden beri aynı güçler kilit yerlerdedir, bunlar da batının maşalığını yapmıştır aynı zamanda, bu sayede ülkede istedikleri gibi at koşturabilmişlerdir. Dink'i, rahip santaro'yu, malatya'daki misyonerleri katledenler bu güçlerdir. Ergenekon olarak tasviye edilince bu güçler bu kuklaların iplerini ellerinde tutanlar diğer palazlanan güç "fethullahcılar" ile kaldıkları yerden devam etmeye çalışmışlar fakat halktan tokatın kralını yemişlerdir son seçimlerde.

Değil ermeni meselesine aynı yerden bakmak, Koyunluk ve bağnazlık noktasında zaten izmirli chp li ile erzurumlu akp linin hiçbir farkı yok ki, ama başbakan en azından geçmişteki yanlışlarla hesaplaşma derdinde, yani batıya yaranmak için bile olsa bir şeyler konuşuluyor bu ülkede.

[Armenian Bishop]

I honestly didn't know anything before about the Armenian genocide as they don't teach it in american schools, I knew Assyrians who talked about it, and I did some research and was disgusted to see how those poor people were treated and murdered yet the world kept quiet about it. I think that its like Jewish history, the world knows about it and is condemned to repeat it, but today Armenians and Assyrians are still persecuted in the middle east, I think it is important to recognize the genocide committed against them. Its like in the us, we don't recognize the genocide against native Americans but everyone knows it happened, history is white washed that there were military campaigns but it was nothing short of a genocide.

I've never met a Armenian before but it sounds like they are good people.

The Cold War, Turkish alliance with Israel, and Turkish NATO Alliance with the USA has contributed to the "Wall of Silence," effectively silencing information sources that would otherwise improve public awareness about the Armenia. Media, Literary and Educational Sources played along with Turkey to help silence information for public awareness about the Armenian Genocide. Such is the case with 40 Days of Musa Dagh, when a project to film the story was aborted. Since Armenia became a sovereign country, in 1991, the "Wall of Silence" has begun to breakdown, a process which has accelerated itself, since the onset of the 21st Century.

[meAyin-sixteen]

I'm not very well informed on that, unfortunately, but I'd be open to read about it and make an opinion.


Instead of t-t-t-t-t, you could simply....

But it seems sometimes obvious is too obvious for (y)our eyes to see and understand.

[Hayasa]

Claims of "Holocaust Denial" denialists

Holocaust denial denial accepts the commonly accepted idea that the Jews and other minority groups were killed in Nazi concentration camps. Also prominent is the belief that the Nazis tried to cover up the true events and/or redirect blame for their crimes to the victims, creating sympathy for their cause. In addition, beliefs that the Germans had always planned to frame foreign propaganda for their crimes even from before the war is common, but not universal among Holocaust denial deniers. Some renounce the last claim and assert that it was simply a move made when the prospect fortuitously presented itself.

In summation, Holocaust denial deniers generally believe that the Holocaust was orchestrated by the Nazis for the purpose of restricting living space in Germany to only the rightful Aryan race. While the above is important, it only serves to solidify their claims.
---------
Criticism of Holocaust denial denial

Holocaust denial denial has faced extremely heavy criticism throughout the years from both believers of the Holocaust and Holocaust deniers themselves. Many have claimed that David Irving does in fact exist, though no evidence has been brought forward to substantiate this claim.

It has been extremely difficult for supporters of Holocaust denial to provide evidence that they exist, as do their beliefs. And beyond that, it's difficult to prove that their claims are as widespread as many believe them to be as Holocaust denial deniers don't believe in their beliefs to begin with.

Holocaust deniers have stated that Holocaust denial deniers simply attempt to "ignore" Holocaust denial's ideas and those affiliated with them while subconsciously recognizing them. This however, was proven untrue by Dr. Greenstein of the Open University of Israel, who stated, "Who?" when asked about what he thought regarding Holocaust deniers

[Hayasa]

Holocaust denial deniers argue that unlike Holocaust deniers (whom they deny the existence of), there is an abundant amount of evidence to back up their claims. Indeed, many concentration camps have been found throughout Europe since the end of World War II. Conditions at these camps have been found to be completely inhospitable, providing evidence that their purpose was the methodical slaughter of all people held there. Often mass graves have also been excavated near the sites, demonstrating that what took place was a genocide.

Testimonies of Schutzstaffel officers being tried for crimes against humanity for their involvement in the Holocaust ranged from, "Oh, I'd say about six million Jews or so." to, "Yes, we did it." Almost all of them claimed that the accusations were completely true.

Holocaust denial deniers have also asserted that the lack of prominent articles regarding Holocaust denial is evidence enough that Holocaust denial doesn't exist and is probably a botched hoax of some sorts. The claim that David Irving and other figures who have openly spoken about Holocaust denial "don't exist" is also somehow justified. An informal 2003 report regarding Holocaust negationism from the Open University of Israel stated the following:


...Upon further inspection of 'David Irving's birth certificate', we came to find that in actuality ... it didn't exist. We are thoroughly convinced that no such individual exists, and therefore, has never spoken out against the Holocaust. Not existing can sometimes be a problem when it comes to stating your opinion. For example, if I say, 'Ron Shickelberger was the official commentator for the 1938 Nuremberg Rally' you'll say, 'Who?' Exactly.



Parody of Holocaust Denial