Haplogroup J2b1 - M205 ("Balkan cluster")

[Okirus]

According to Serbian DNA project, haplogroup J2b1 - M205 is represented with 5,86% (July, 2014.), or 31/529 tested persons (Serbs, Croats and muslims).

J2b1 - M205 results (Serbian DNA project)
http://poreklo.rs/srpski-dnk-projekat/tabela-pojedinacne-grupe/?grp-filter=J2bM205&lang=lat

Characteristic markers for our "Balkan cluster" is DYS392=12 and DYS437=14.
Similar haplotypes are found amoung Bulgarians (three persons), Romanians (two persons), Czechs (one person), Italians (one person), Germans (two persons) and English (one person).
Our biggest problem is that we have only two guys with 67 tested markers, so it is hard to say when and where lived our most distant ancestor.

It seems that we were isolated from others J2b1 M205 branches, because closest haplotypes to our group is two French and one Greek (same ancestor before around 4000 years).

What do you think about this haplogroup and this "Balkan cluster"?

[Okirus]

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b.gif

[Okirus]

J2b1 - M205 (Serbian DNA project, 9.2.2014.)
49127
J2b1 - M205 (Serbian DNA project, 8.5.2014.)
49128

[HellLander87]

It seems with a quick look that the haplotypes are quite close to each other.There isn't much diversity.

[Okirus]

It seems with a quick look that the haplotypes are quite close to each other.There isn't much diversity.
Thanks for response!

According to Nordtvedt calculator most distant ancestor of our J2b1 - M205 (tested on 37 markers) lived before 690 years.
According to McGee calculator most distant ancestor of our J2b1 - M205 (tested on 37 markers) lived before 840 years.

[Okirus]

J2b1 - M205 (Serbian DNA project, 19.8.2014.)

http://s1.postimg.org/tqqrxjzi3/J2b_M205_2.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/tqqrxjzi3/)

[Okirus]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10703779_536668773130439_1347916038310128483_n.jpg ?oh=a4f154ae1b3102ddb3f0e973a0b91c92&oe=54878831&__gda__=1422527672_4dc7691d219a97505cb1eabfabeb3d3 d

[Guapo]

Why would J2b1 - M205 be a Balkan cluster? Is that from Romans or what?

[Okirus]

Why would J2b1 - M205 be a Balkan cluster? Is that from Romans or what?
Haplogroup J2b1 M205 originated probably from Syria (before 6.000 years ago).

We have three main branches - Arabian, Anatolian-Armenian and European.
"Balkan cluster" are just part of European J2b1 M205 branch.
Characteristic markers for our "Balkan cluster" is DYS392=12 and DYS437=14. We have more than 40 persons from Balkan (Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Romania) with these values, and just three persons from other parts of Europe with these values (Germany, Italy).
"Balkan cluster" have just three "close matches", before around 4.000 years ago (France, Greece).

[Black Wolf]

Although they make up a small overall minority in the Serbian DNA Project I do see some Serbs who are J2a as well.

[Okirus]

Although they make up a small overall minority in the Serbian DNA Project I do see some Serbs who are J2a as well.
J2a table
http://poreklo.rs/srpski-dnk-projekat/tabela-pojedinacne-grupe/?grp-filter=J2a&lang=lat

[Guapo]

J2a table
http://poreklo.rs/srpski-dnk-projekat/tabela-pojedinacne-grupe/?grp-filter=J2a&lang=lat

Theres quite a few croat and even muslim there, does DNK test non-Serbs?

[Okirus]

Theres quite a few croat and even muslim there, does DNK test non-Serbs?
Yes, there are few Croats and muslims.
We lived side by side, we have similar genetic, so they are on our project.

[opening]

interesting

[Okirus]

J2b1 - M205 (Serbian DNA project, 19.10.2014.)
51559

[Insuperable]

This haplotype is labeled as ancient Greek marker.

[Okirus]

This haplotype is labeled as ancient Greek marker.
Source?

This haplogroup is probably the most mysterious.

Haplogroup J2b1 M205 originated probably from Syria (before 6.000 years ago).
We have three main branches - Arabian, Anatolian-Armenian and European.
"Balkan cluster" are just part of European J2b1 M205 branch.
European branch of haplogroup J2b1 M205 came to Europe probably with Bell Beakers. First in Iberia and later they spread across Western and Southern Europe.

Characteristic markers for our "Balkan cluster" is DYS392=12 and DYS437=14. We have more than 40 persons from Balkan (Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Romania) with these values, and just four persons from other parts of Europe with these values (Germany, Italy).
"Balkan cluster" have just three "close matches", before around 4.000 years ago (France, Greece).
According to Nordtvedt calculator most distant ancestor of "Balkan cluster" J2b1 - M205 (tested on 67 markers) lived before 1000-1150 years.

[Insuperable]

Source?

This haplogroup is probably the most mysterious.

Haplogroup J2b1 M205 originated probably from Syria (before 6.000 years ago).
We have three main branches - Arabian, Anatolian-Armenian and European.
"Balkan cluster" are just part of European J2b1 M205 branch.
European branch of haplogroup J2b1 M205 came to Europe probably with Bell Beakers. First in Iberia and later they spread across Western and Southern Europe.

Characteristic markers for our "Balkan cluster" is DYS392=12 and DYS437=14. We have more than 40 persons from Balkan (Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Romania) with these values, and just four persons from other parts of Europe with these values (Germany, Italy).
"Balkan cluster" have just three "close matches", before around 4.000 years ago (France, Greece).
According to Nordtvedt calculator most distant ancestor of "Balkan cluster" J2b1 - M205 (tested on 67 markers) lived before 1000-1150 years.

I could have sworn that months ago when you opened this thread on wiki it said it is implicated in the ancient Greek colonization. It says nothing now, but using google you can find site or two where it is mentioned as one of markers for the ancient Greek colonization.


That's EV-13.

Well, yes, EV-13 was a dominant marker and I didn't want to imply that M205 was a dominant marker. There are some J2b and J2a haplotypes associated with Greek colonization.

[Okirus]

J2b1 M205 (Balkan)
51571

[Black Wolf]

That's EV-13.

J2a is connected with bronze age collapse era migrations through anatolia and into greece (then further spread into italy through greek colonisation, see the BIOPROS article) but J2b is a ghost.

There's a theory that it was a balkanic one and existed from northern greece all the way to the borders of yugoslavia and that it was spread by Alexander in the near east but it's a pretty weak hypothesis imo.

Though what I found curious is that many people in greece/the balkans who carry J2b/J2a carry U5 mt-dna as well (me included).

Is your Y-DNA haplogroup J2a or J2b then?

[Linebacker]

That's EV-13.

J2a is connected with bronze age collapse era migrations through anatolia and into greece (then further spread into italy through greek colonisation, see the BIOPROS article) but J2b is a ghost.

There's a theory that it was a balkanic one and existed from northern greece all the way to the borders of yugoslavia and that it was spread by Alexander in the near east but it's a pretty weak hypothesis imo.

Though what I found curious is that many people in greece/the balkans who carry J2b/J2a carry U5 mt-dna as well (me included).

What are your Y and Mt haplogroups?

[Black Wolf]

J2a table
http://poreklo.rs/srpski-dnk-projekat/tabela-pojedinacne-grupe/?grp-filter=J2a&lang=lat

Do any of these Serbian J2a men belong to any certain tribes/clans of Serbia or Montenegro do you know?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serb_clans

[Okirus]

Do any of these Serbian J2a men belong to any certain tribes/clans of Serbia or Montenegro do you know?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serb_clans

Perunović (J2a1b1 M67 M92) is from Pješivci tribe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pje%C5%A1ivci

[cally]

Is your Y-DNA haplogroup J2a or J2b then?

I think he is j2b2*

[Black Wolf]

Perunović (J2a1b1 M67 M92) is from Pješivci tribe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pje%C5%A1ivci

Thank you...Are any of the other one's from any tribes or clans do you know?

[Borna]

I despise this haplogroup.

[Okirus]

Thank you...Are any of the other one's from any tribes or clans do you know?

We are sure that Perunović is from Pješivci tribe. He is only one from Dinaric area (are where we have organized clans).
Majority of other J2a (from our project) are catholic Croats, there is also one muslim (Hadžiahmetović).

[Okirus]

I despise this haplogroup.

Why?

[Black Wolf]

We are sure that Perunović is from Pješivci tribe. He is only one from Dinaric area (are where we have organized clans).
Majority of other J2a (from our project) are catholic Croats, there is also one muslim (Hadžiahmetović).

It is confirmed then 100% that the Y-DNA J2a Perunović man in this project is from the Pješivci tribe?

[Okirus]

It is confirmed then 100% that the Y-DNA J2a Perunović man in this project is from the Pješivci tribe?

Yes.

[Black Wolf]

Yes.

It would be interesting to see if other Perunović men are also J2a if they ever end up testing.

[Okirus]

It would be interesting to see if other Perunović men are also J2a if they ever end up testing.

Yes, but testing is very expensive for our standard and conditions.

[Ness]

J2b M205 not exist among Albanians. There is 3, or 4 J2b M205 in Greece, but all in southern parts, in Peloponnese, and island Kos. They are geographically and genetically (common ancestor before over 4000 years ago) distanced from us.

J2b M205 exist among Serbs, Croats, and Bulgarians. They are very "young" group. Common ancestor lived before 1300 years. We wait some new Y and snp results to solve this dilemma.

[safinator]

J2b M205 not exist among Albanians. There is 3, or 4 J2b M205 in Greece, but all in southern parts, in Peloponnese, and island Kos. They are geographically and genetically (common ancestor before over 4000 years ago) distanced from us.

J2b M205 exist among Serbs, Croats, and Bulgarians. They are very "young" group. Common ancestor lived before 1300 years. We wait some new Y and snp results to solve this dilemma.

That's wrong actually, the majority of our J2 is J2b2 but among my sharings i have a J2b1(M205) Albanian from Montenegro.

[Ness]

That's wrong actually, the majority of our J2 is J2b2 but among my sharings i have a J2b1(M205) Albanian from Montenegro.

This is great info. Could you tell us some details. Surname, markers, place of origin, etc?

[safinator]

This is great info. Could you tell us some details. Surname, markers, place of origin, etc?

Well i don't want to share his surname for obvious privacy reasons, i have no idea about markers honestly, we're tested through 23andMe so he's just J2b1.
As for his origin he's from Ulqin.

[Ness]

What is your hg..J2b2?

[safinator]

What is your hg..J2b2?

I am R1b - L23.

[Ness]

Sorry, I have tested via ftdna. How do you have sharing with someone J2b1 if you are R1b?

[Okirus]

J2b1 M205 map
http://s29.postimg.org/lbh3txgwn/j2b1_zpsdbe72d73.png

[Okirus]

Now we have one Bulgarian guy who belong to haplogroup J2b1 M205 and who tested 37 markers.
According to some calculators, ancestor of Serbo-Croatian, Bulgarian and Romanian J2b1 M205 lived before 1020-1260 years.

[Artek]

Short y-strs aren't useful, I guess 12 y-str haplotypes were calculated

[Okirus]

Short y-strs aren't useful, I guess 12 y-str haplotypes were calculated

We use 67 and 111 haplotypes for calculation.
But, we don't have any Bulgarians or Romanians who have more then 37 (only one guy from Bulgaria and one from Romania have 37, others have only 12), so we use three Serbo-Croatian haplotypes (67 markers), one Bulgarian (37 markers) and one Romanian (37 markers).

[Artek]

We use 67 and 111 haplotypes for calculation.
But, we don't have any Bulgarians or Romanians who have more then 37 (only one guy from Bulgaria and one from Romania have 37, others have only 12), so we use three Serbo-Croatian haplotypes (67 markers), one Bulgarian (37 markers) and one Romanian (37 markers).
Ah, allright. That explains much. You should get more markers from "fringe" locations like France, Iberia, Britain or Caucasus.
Serbo-Croatian haplotypes have usually very low TMRCA I guess, like R1a-Z280>L1280 subjects from this region, for example.

[Tiberio]

J2b1 M205 map
http://s29.postimg.org/lbh3txgwn/j2b1_zpsdbe72d73.png

Greek colonies for Sicily probably more than Arbereshe. Eupedia's map show a presence also in Calabria, Salento due to Greek colonization and Apulia in Foggia due to probably presence of Dauni who were probably cousins of Illyrians. Some Arbereshe in the three regions have also contributed but less.

[Ness]

2 new M205 on map. One in Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate area, and one from Sicily, Catania region.

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b627/ness50/j2b1_zps78db84cf.png

Also, there is a few more new J-M205 in Europe. One from Germany, one from Italy and one from England. We don't know locations, so these people aren't on map.

It's seems J-M205 is more often in West Europe and Balkan (young group).

[Artek]

It seems that at least 3 J-M205's have done BigY http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/. I wonder have many novel variants do they have, counting from M205 node itself.

[Okirus]

Now we have two guys from Bulgaria with 37 markers who belong to haplogroup J2b1 M205.

We compare three Serbo-Croatian haplotypes, two Bulgarian haplotypes and one Szekely haplotype. According to some calculators, ancestor of these six guys lived before 36-37 generations (X century).

[Silikone]

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b.gif

It looks a lot like the distribution of E-V13. Doesn't seem like a coincidence to me.

[Okirus]

It looks a lot like the distribution of E-V13. Doesn't seem like a coincidence to me.

Majority of J2b from this map is J2b2 M241 (Albania, Greece...).

[Ness]

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b627/ness50/oper_zpsnrxmhf7j.jpg

Source: FTDNA (24.05.2015)

[Okirus]

J2b1-M205, Balkan cluster (392=12, 437=14)
http://s12.postimg.org/e6yp8dq59/11400994_1027598227252105_8578394308787565355_n.jp g

[Ness]

J2b-M205 (12.06.2015.)

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b627/ness50/J2b1_zpsa0nkmlsv.jpg

[Ness]

Haplogroup J2b1, Europe

"balkan cluster" (green)

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b627/ness50/j2b1e_zpslyicq4mr.jpg

[Dema]

Albanians just joined the club : )

[Okirus]

https://s21.postimg.org/9eyq65j4n/14572999_1387329997945591_1541528270790970754_n.jp g

[Dick]

https://s21.postimg.org/9eyq65j4n/14572999_1387329997945591_1541528270790970754_n.jp gWAS IT SPREAD BY GREEKS?

[Okirus]

WAS IT SPREAD BY GREEKS?

Probably by Greeks, Phoenicians and Roman/Byzantine colonization from Middle East.

[Arab_j2b1]

hi

everyone

how are you

I am from arab land specially in YEMEN

my Y-DNA is J2B1 - M205

I am ready for any question related to the J2B1 - M205

[GoneWithTheWind]

Probably by Greeks, Phoenicians and Roman/Byzantine colonization from Middle East.

For real? Damn you mena leftovers.

[Tschaikisten]

New map of J2b1 M205 created by member of Poreklo, official forum of Serbian DNA Project.
https://s10.postimg.org/68d5adm49/karta_j2b_m205_haplogrupe.png

[Tschaikisten]

Bulgaria (sample 808)
https://s29.postimg.org/co2g0h4jb/bulgarie19.gif
Croatia (sample 1100)
https://s29.postimg.org/i0raelsfr/croatie19.gif
Vojvodina Serbs (sample 185)
Aleksandrovac, Serbia (sample 85)
https://s29.postimg.org/48cviz1o7/serbie_kosovo19.gif

Sources:
- Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry
- Croatian national reference Y-STR haplotype database
- Allele frequencies and population data for 17 Y-chromosome STR loci in a Serbian population sample from Vojvodina province
- Непосредни резултати нових мултидисциплинарних етногенетских истраживања Срба и становништва Србије (на примеру Александровачке жупе).

[Dema]

Serbs producing shit tmrca with only 900 years tells that this group has nothing with them. Only 900 years ago these people were not Serbs (just as there is case with more then one haplos among them and not only M205)

So much hype for nothing!

Also this maps that Europa Nazione is posting are hoax and they do not tell real situatuon.

Just continue with craps little Caucasian offspring

[Dema]

J2b1 with Balkan TMRCA of 1500 years and biggest diversity in Fertile Crescent tells pretty much that has arrived 1500 years from that direction.
Also South Slav (Croats, Serbs, Bosnjaks, Montenegrins,) TMRCA of j2b1 is 900 years meaning it is recent arrival and sudden expansion among them.

Nice that now we know much more about this haplo. Also FTDNA seems to agree on j2b1 Fertile Crescent origin and expansion.
https://j2-m172.info/2016/10/possibly-j2b1-m205-basal-structure-defined-cts1969-cts5338-yp13-ph4306-ph1089-y22066/

[Coolguy1]

J2b1 with Balkan TMRCA of 1500 years and biggest diversity in Fertile Crescent tells pretty much that has arrived 1500 years from that direction.
Also South Slav (Croats, Serbs, Bosnjaks, Montenegrins,) TMRCA of j2b1 is 900 years meaning it is recent arrival and sudden expansion among them.

Nice that now we know much more about this haplo. Also FTDNA seems to agree on j2b1 Fertile Crescent origin and expansion.
https://j2-m172.info/2016/10/possibly-j2b1-m205-basal-structure-defined-cts1969-cts5338-yp13-ph4306-ph1089-y22066/

J2b1 indeed predates the Slavic arrival to the Balkans, but dont you think theres a possibility that you inherited this haplogroup from an indigenous ancestor who was slavicized, and then down the line his descendants became re-Albanized?

[Dema]

J2b1 indeed predates the Slavic arrival to the Balkans, but dont you think theres a possibility that you inherited this haplogroup from an indigenous ancestor who was slavicized, and then down the line his descendants became re-Albanized?

It does not predate Slavic arrival and if it does it does not for a lot from this what we see now, Balkan TMRCA is 1500 years and we can maybe add max 10% to that. So 1500-1600 years.

My best guess is one of these three: Western Roman Empire, Christian migrations that took place from that direction 10 years before fall of Western Roman Empire, or Early Byzantine period.
This haplogroup is none existent in North and East Slavic countries but South Slavs assimilated it upon coming on Balkans.
South Slavic TMRCA IS 900 years while i have two unique str marker values that put me 1000 - 1500 years away from their group. It means i split up even earlier then their 900 years TMRCA.

We have Greek, Bulgar, Magyar also in our group but again no one of them shares my unique markers that put me at least 1000 years further then rest of Balkan j2b1>PH4306>Y22066.

We are native in Fertile Crescent and we for sure come from that direction. Seems like about 300 years prior to Arab-Muslim conquer of that area.

[Dema]

Here is newer tree of J2b1, Roman gladiator that was found with j2b1 is under category 3DRIF-26 Roman York.

Balkan clade is j2b1>PH4306>Y22066 and we know our TMRCA is around 1500 years and we are most likely not longer then that in Balkan but we come from direction where we originated and where we first expanded, Fertile Crescent.

https://j2-m172.info/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2016/10/J2b1-M205-research-tree_2016-11a.png

[Ülev]

New map of J2b1 M205 created by member of Poreklo, official forum of Serbian DNA Project.
https://s10.postimg.org/68d5adm49/karta_j2b_m205_haplogrupe.png

on the heart of Mazovia (Poland), nice picture for R1 fans

[Shubotai]

J2b1-M205 is the Greek type of J2.

100808

[Dr_Maul]

I have J2B2-L283, I think J2 in general is an EEF Haplo

[Peloponnesian pride]

J2b1-M205 is the Greek type of J2.

100808

Ελληνας?

[Shubotai]

Ναι