Ethnic/political map of Britain, AD 700

[Wulfhere]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4048/4214475492_fec614c756.jpg

[Jarl]

What was "Wiccia"?

[Osweo]

What was "Wiccia"?
Possibly a misspelling, or at least an unusual one. Hwicce, however, was an Anglo-Saxon subkingdom of Mercia, occasionally disputed with Wessex. One of the Kings or subkings founded Gloucester Cathedral, and his effigy is still there, in a row with that of Edward II. Hwicce's name lives on in the place-name Wychwood. On this map, it extends too far into Mercian territory...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4048/4214475492_fec614c756.jpg
Bloody lazy Christos Nuessli!
Rheged should NOT appear as a surviving independent kingdom at this date. St Cuthbert was already touring Carlisle in full safety in the mid 600s. He was also given the estates of Cartmel at this time, in the south of the purple area here. Lonsdale was under full English control too. At best, Rheged should be cross-hatched, but I think even that would be overdoing it.

Hmm, I don't see why the Mercian border isn't the River Mersey, as that's why the river has that bloody name!

Essex shouldn't really be shown as in undisputed control of Hertfordshire at this point, as Mercia had encroached to London by this point.

If Hwicce is shown, Middle Anglia, Lindsey and Deira and Bernicia should be too.

700 is already past the apex of Northumbrian power, so showing some sort of sphere of influence all the way into Cheshire and Staffordshire is inappropriate. I have no idea what possessed Nuessli to include Wirral among definite Northumbrian territories either...

[hereward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwicce

Wiki article

If you do have a real interest, the best place to start would be Frank Stenton, author of 'Anglo-Saxon England', a volume of the Oxford history of England. No ideology, just scholarly.

[Wulfhere]

There are certainly things that can be taken issue with about the map. I particularly noticed the spelling, which seems to be a bizarre mixture of Old and Modern English names, sometimes even in the same word (e.g. "Estanglia").

[Jarl]

It's worth mentioning that up to the first decades of the VIIth century there was a Brythonic kingdom of Elmet South of Rheged:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Yr.Hen.Ogledd.550.650.Koch.jpg

It retained it Celtic population and parts of it were probably conquered by the expanding Kingdom of Strathclyde. It apparently regained its independence from Saxons for a short time in 10th century.

[hereward]

Elmet was conquered in the early 600's, not much is known of the kingdom/people relatively speaking, I will post on this in the future. As a side note, do not confuse the present demographic lay out of England with the past, as a percentage of England, the northwest was not as densely populated as it is today, in fact it was one of the least.

[Osweo]

There are certainly things that can be taken issue with about the map. I particularly noticed the spelling, which seems to be a bizarre mixture of Old and Modern English names, sometimes even in the same word (e.g. "Estanglia").
Aye, it's a bit of a mess in almost every way! 'East Engle' it might as well have been, if anyone's wondering. Most of these places had varying spelling at the time - I've seen Myrce too - and had yet more in the contemporary Latin documents.

It's worth mentioning that up to the first decades of the VIIth century there was a Brythonic kingdom of Elmet South of Rheged:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Yr.Hen.Ogledd.550.650.Koch.jpg
Eeee... Another awful anachronistic map! :D
Some names are in Modern Welsh, some in Archaic, and some in Brito-Latin!
If you write 'Elmet' (now 'Elfed' in Modern Welsh), you should put Rheged in its earlier form of 'Recet'! :rolleyes::p

It retained it Celtic population and parts of it were probably conquered by the expanding Kingdom of Strathclyde.
Everywhere in Britain retained some Celtic population. Southern Lancashire probably has more than West Yorkshire though. And Strathclyde never conquered Elmet, you're thinking of Rheged. Elmet is all the way down around Leeds - a long way from Dumbarton!

It apparently regained its independence from Saxons for a short time in 10th century.
Nonsense. Again, you're thinking of Rheged, but in the Tenth Century it was more Norse than Welsh anyway.

[Jarl]

Elmet was conquered in the early 600's, not much is known of the kingdom/people relatively speaking, I will post on this in the future. As a side note, do not confuse the present demographic lay out of England with the past, as a percentage of England, the northwest was not as densely populated as it is today, in fact it was one of the least.

Weren't they Brythons? I thought that's an established fact. Definitely Yorkshire and Cumbria were sparsely populated. Liverpool was founded some 500 years later ;)

[hereward]

;)I took it you knew that

[Jarl]

Liverpool was founded some 500 years later ;)

It's been an exemplar of a city with great naval traditions, yet I think some ppl might quite regret that decision now.

[Albion]

Elmet was conquered in the early 600's, not much is known of the kingdom/people relatively speaking, I will post on this in the future. As a side note, do not confuse the present demographic lay out of England with the past, as a percentage of England, the northwest was not as densely populated as it is today, in fact it was one of the least.

Wirral was a soggy wilderness, Cheshire was nice and rural with the Forest of Lyme separating us from what would later become Stoke, yep - things were good :D
At least the North has more open spaces than the soft south anyway:thumb001:


It's been an exemplar of a city with great naval traditions, yet I think some ppl might quite regret that decision now.

Some??? :D:thumb001:

[Gaztelu]

If any shit goes down in Britain, I will stand with the Welsh people.