Y-DNA of pre Indo-European Iberians

[scottch]

The myth that R1b was spread across Europe by ancient Iberians has been supported on this forum despite it been known for years that it only entered Europe during Bronze Age Indo-European migrations. DNA testing of early Celtic-Germanic-Italic graves reveal they were mostly R1b, whereas not one case of R1b has been found from ancient Iberian skeletons.

http://i.imgur.com/UyIRYy1.jpg



More recently, data and calculations from Myres (2011),[83] Cruciani (2010),[84] Arredi (2007)[85] and Belaresque (2010)[86] suggest a Late Neolithic entry of R-M269 into Europe. These hypotheses are corroborated by more direct evidence from ancient DNA. For example, Early Neolithic Y-DNA from Spain did not reveal any R1b, but rather E-V13 and G2a,[86] whilst a similar study from a French Bell Beaker Neolithic site revealed only haplogroups G2a and I-P37.[87] It is only later, from a German Bell Beaker site dated to the third millennium BCE, that the first case of R1b is detected in Europe.


R1b spread from Central Europe with Celtic-Germanic-Italic migrations

http://i.imgur.com/tdFDkfB.png


Y-DNA of Neolithic skeletons. As you can see it's mostly G2a. (Mesolithic European Y-DNA was mostly I-M170, but was pushed into isolated areas like Scandinavia during Neolithic expansion)

http://i.imgur.com/KCyQB5t.jpg


Halogroup G is rare in modern European populations, but peaks in central Italy. Ötzi the Iceman, a skeleton found in Northern Italy from 3,300 BC also belonged to G2a. The halogroup is likely associated with the neolithic spread of agriculture to Europe from the Middle East.

http://i.imgur.com/zZV5vSO.gif


An R1b subclade with a clear Germanic origin

http://i.imgur.com/xRsGsKW.gif

[Damião de Góis]

The myth that R1b was spread across Europe by ancient Iberians has been supported on this forum despite it been known for years that it only entered Europe during Bronze Age Indo-European migrations.

The current accepted theory for some time now, is that R1b entered Europe from Anatolia.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

It had to be R*. Solutrean artifacts are found in USA now, and R* is found in native americans. This utterly destroys the retarded idea of a recent r1b origin. I have never seen any scientists claim this in a paper anyway, it's just idiots from the internet reacting to lack of r1b fines.

But guess what? Malta boy was R*. So the theory about R* which you can read right in wikipedia is the correct one.

[The King, I am]

E1b1b EV-13 is older in Europe than most European haplogroups you find there today

[ButlerKing]

It had to be R*. Solutrean artifacts are found in USA now, and R* is found in native americans. This utterly destroys the retarded idea of a recent r1b origin. I have never seen any scientists claim this in a paper anyway, it's just idiots from the internet reacting to lack of r1b fines.

But guess what? Malta boy was R*. So the theory about R* which you can read right in wikipedia is the correct one.


Solutrean is just a theory. Besides the Siberian Maltay boy was reported with Mongoloid features. He was R1b ( ancestors of some Native American ) but only 1/3 Western Eurasian, 1/3 East Eurasian, 1/3 South Asian.

[cally]

Why is I2a2 listed as Dinaric? No evidence for that as of yet.

[Peikko]

Why is I2a2 listed as Dinaric? No evidence for that as of yet.

Those Eupedia guys are just so fucking retarded.

[Peikko]

Kiukainen culture didn't reach the southern side of the Gulf of Finland either. They should read some history.

[scottch]

The current accepted theory for some time now, is that R1b entered Europe from Anatolia.

With Indo-European migrations

[ButlerKing]

I doubt anyone would want to claim Solutrean were Mongoloids.

" Mongoloid features had been originally acknowledged in the skeletal remains of a child found at the site of
Malta. Alexeev (1998, 323) "

[Styrian Mujo]

Why is I2a2 listed as Dinaric? No evidence for that as of yet.
Maybe because it's most commonly found among the population along the Dinaric mountins.

[cally]

Maybe because it's most commonly found among the population along the Dinaric mountins.

But I2a2 came with the Slavic migrations from Ukraine, Belarus ect. Dinaric I2 is fairly young.

[Smeagol]

With Indo-European migrations

No, because Indo-Europeans didn't come from Anatolia.

[scottch]

No, because Indo-Europeans didn't come from Anatolia.

When was there ever a large migration from anatolia to Europe? R1b only reaches 16% in Turkey and it's a completely different branch. What evidence are you basing it from anyway? Thats like me saying R1a is Punjabi in origin.

Theres no reason to attribute it to migration from anatolia when all the evidence points to Indo-European migrations (probably from Russian steppe)

[Kale]

Probably a lot of I, G, and E. I don't think we really have enough evidence to determine whether R1b was present or not.

[Smeagol]

When was there ever a large migration from anatolia to Europe? R1b only reaches 16% in Turkey and it's a completely different branch. What evidence are you basing it from anyway? Thats like me saying R1a is Punjabi in origin.

Theres no reason to attribute it to migration from anatolia when all the evidence points to Indo-European migrations (probably from Russian steppe)

Never mind, I think I misunderstood your other post. But anyway I agree .

[Comte Arnau]

I'm more and more convinced that both the Iberian and Aquitanian/Basque languages are only pre-Roman by a relatively short time, Iberian spreading southwards along the eastern coast only three or four centuries before the Roman invasion, and Aquitanian being in fact pushed into Iberia rather towards the end of the long Roman Republic period, coexisting with Celtic languages in the modern Basque Country for a while. Whether this linguistic history has a genetic translation or not is a different story, as there could have been a process of acculturation.

[The Sun King]

No, because Indo-Europeans didn't come from Anatolia.

In your opinion. The Kurgan hypothesis has some holes in it. Colin Renfrew thinks Indo Europeans came from Anatolia. Even top experts aren't sure.

[Smeagol]

In your opinion. The Kurgan hypothesis has some holes in it. Colin Renfrew thinks Indo Europeans came from Anatolia. Even top experts aren't sure.

They overwhelmingly support the Kurgan Hypothesis.

[Comte Arnau]

Hg I, specially I-M26, is probably quite old in Iberia.

[Longbowman]

It's sad R is so common. Now the aR1ans like to say they're the true Europeans, but we were here first, god damn it!

[Hevo]

It's sad R is so common. Now the aR1ans like to say they're the true Europeans, but we were here first, god damn it!

The situation about R in Europe is still a mystery tough.

[Longbowman]

The situation about R in Europe is still a mystery tough.

Not really. You're invaders.

[Hevo]

Not really. You're invaders.

As i said it's a mystery but they are some interesting studies coming.:) We are all invaders, Neanderthals are da true Europeans!:P

[Longbowman]

As i said it's a mystery but they are some interesting studies coming.:) We are all invaders, Neanderthals are da true Europeans!:P

We invaded first. :coffee:

[Hevo]

We invaded first. :coffee:

We will see.

[Longbowman]

We will see.

We did. You came last. That's why your languages are the ones that remain.

[Hevo]

We did. You came last. That's why your languages are the ones that remain.

Which part of Europe are you talking about? Western Europe? .

[Longbowman]

Which part of Europe are you talking about? Western Europe? .

Pretty much all of it except parts of southern Russia perhaps.

[Hevo]

Pretty much all of it except parts of southern Russia perhaps.


Imo it's to early to say that R1 guys were invaders(from where?) in pretty much all of Europe. There is a big chance that R1 has been in (far) Eastern Europe for a long time.

Btw, Y-Dna/MTDNA Results etc from the Samara culture culture are coming soon.

[Longbowman]

Imo it's to early to say that R1 guys were invaders(from where?) in pretty much all of Europe. There is a big chance that R1 has been in (far) Eastern Europe for a long time.

Btw, Y-Dna/MTDNA Results etc from the Samara culture culture are coming soon.

From the east.

At any rate it's not native to Western, Northern, Central or Southern Europe.

[Hevo]

At any rate it's not native to Western, Northern, Central or Southern Europe.

Based on the current ancient Y-Dna results this is true.

[Void]

R1b L21 appears to have arrived by boat while R1b U106 arrived through a continental route.

Egypt could have been the L21 homeland and pyramids would be more elaborate versions of the Kurgan burial mounds.

[Longbowman]

R1b L21 appears to have arrived by boat while R1b U106 arrived through a continental route.

Egypt could have been the L21 homeland and pyramids would be more elaborate versions of the Kurgan burial mounds.

Fanciful at best.

[Germaniac]

First Y-DNA in Europe were C (almost inexistent there nowadays) and I. Later on came E and G. Then J came in and lastly R1. That's what current evidence supports at least. I bet there was a tad of F too.

[Lábaru]

Why there is no sources in this thread? if there are studies of Iberian Mesolithic skeletons I want to see the links, so far I only know one study of two skeletons, totally inadequate to decide the total of the genepool of Iberian Peninsula.

[Void]

Why there is no sources in this thread? if there are studies of Iberian Mesolithic skeletons I want to see the links, so far I only know one study of two skeletons, totally inadequate to decide the total of the genepool of Iberian Peninsula.
https://goo.gl/maps/yao6

C, E, and 3xG from five samples. Looking at the rest of Europe G and I appear to have been the dominant haplogroups prior to the arrival of IE.

[Lábaru]

https://goo.gl/maps/yao6

C, E, and 3xG from five samples. Looking at the rest of Europe G and I appear to have been the dominant haplogroups prior to the arrival of IE.

Thanks for the link. As I said, these Iberian results are based on only two individuals of La Braña, totally inadequate to estimate the whole genepool of the Iberian Peninsula.

Edit:
Seems to there some other individual in the eastern Iberian area, I have no information about it.

[Longbowman]

Thanks for the link. As I said, these Iberian results are based on only two individuals of La Braña, totally inadequate to estimate the whole genepool of the Iberian Peninsula.

Sure but it proves the presence of I, G and E, not unsurprising for pre-Indo-European Europe.

[Lábaru]

Sure but it proves the presence of I, G and E, not unsurprising for pre-Indo-European Europe.

Yes, but does not discard the presence of other haplogroups, as R1b.

[Longbowman]

Yes, but does not discard the presence of other haplogroups, as R1b.

But no R1b has ever been found in any European site before the spread of Indo-European groups.

The reality is R1b came after the other three groups. It's now an almost indisputable fact.

[Lábaru]

But no R1b has ever been found in any European site before the spread of Indo-European groups.

The reality is R1b came after the other three groups. It's now an almost indisputable fact.

I know--->http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml but still in Iberia, what is a very isolated peninsula, there may be a surprise because it was a refuge of glaciations, the only certainty is that we lack data and that the subclades of European R1b are not found elsewhere, I do not say it is the correct theory, I say we do not have enough information to discard it.

[Longbowman]

I know--->http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml but still in Iberia, what is a very isolated peninsula, there may be a surprise because it was a refuge of glaciations, the only certainty is that we lack data and that the subclades of European R1b are not found elsewhere, I do not say it is the correct theory, I say we do not have enough information to discard it.

The Iberian clades are clearly related to other Western European clades. It is unlikely R entered Europe twice.

[Void]

We know R1 was in Siberia 20K years ago. All the data suggests that R1 tribes domesticated the horse 5000 BC, moved into the Middle East and Egypt around 4000 BC, likely due to climate change forcing them to go wherever their horses could graze. They moved into Europe 3000 BC taking bronze technology with them from the Middle East, likely moving once again due to climate change and the desertification of the Sahara. The incursion into Spain, Ireland, and England was likely an invasion by boat originating from Egypt, which may have been motivated by the demand for copper. This is backed up by the occurrence of R1b in Egyptian Faraos although the Egyptian government is trying to suppress the release of any haplogroup match that isn't E1.