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Anglojew
08-05-2014, 01:09 AM
There's been a lot of criticism of Israel, especially during this recent escalation in violence i.e. Operation Protective Edge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza%E2%80%93Israel_conflict#Operation_.22Pillar_o f_Defense.22), with many commentators blaming Israel -and Israel alone- for the failure to reach peach between Israel and the Palestinians broadly and Israel and Hamas specifically.

That Israel is able to make and maintain peace is easily proven by the peace treaties between Israel and Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt%E2%80%93Israel_Peace_Treaty) and between Israel and Jordan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Jordan_peace_treaty). Israel has also attempted peace treaties with the Palestinians including the Oslo Accord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_I_Accord).

Apologists for Hamas argue that Hamas attacks on Israel are due to the blockade of Gaza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip)-and "occupation" (a vague term in relation to Hamas-run Gaza)- imposed upon Gaza in 2007 two years after Israel's withdrawal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%27s_unilateral_disengagement_plan) from the territory:


In June 2007 Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip and removed Fatah officials. Following the Battle of Gaza, the international sanctions were terminated in June 2007 while at the same time a new and more severe blockade of the Gaza Strip was initiated.

In response to the violent clashes, President Abbas declared a state of emergency and dissolved the national unity government on 14 June. Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh called this decision "hasty", and pledged to stay in power. Hamas gained complete control of the Gaza Strip on 15 June, after forcing out Fatah.

Following the takeover, Egypt and Israel largely sealed their border crossings with Gaza, on the grounds that Fatah had fled and was no longer providing security on the Palestinian side.

In July 2007, Israeli officials planned an opening of the Rafah border crossing in order to allow stranded Palestinians to return, but the plan was cancelled after Hamas threatened to fire on the refugees.

A Jerusalem Post article mentions Hamas' complaints that since June 2008 the P.A. does not deliver any more passports to the Gazans thus trapping them tightly.

Egypt, fearing a spill-over of Hamas-style militancy into their territory, kept its border with Gaza largely sealed. Israel sealed the border completely on 17 January in response to rocket attacks on southern Israel and Palestinian militant attacks on crossing points between Israel and Gaza.

The Egyptian government feared also that Iran wants to establish a base in its territory as well as in Gaza through its proxy Hizbullah following the 2009 Hezbollah plot in Egypt. Almasryalyoum: Haaretz

The arguments by apologists for Hamas is that they are not simply a terrorist organisation but that they seek a just settlement to the Palestinian problem. Although their charter (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)states many times they wish to destroy Israel the implication is that somehow Israel is the party responsible for the lack of peace between the two parties (despite withdrawal from Gaza in 2005). Obviously, a "just settlement" has previously been perceived by most commentators as a "two-state solution," but please include your views of what you view a "just settlement" to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as constituting. Destroying Israel is not a "just settlement" but neither is keeping Palestinians in perpetual statelessness. I myself have proposed a creative settlement (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?118770-My-Middle-East-Peace-Plan%99-Part-4-A-Palestinian-Persective-of-how-Greater-Israel-will-work)I feel is one of the most logical solutions that exists.

So, I'd ask supporters of Hamas to please prove that Hamas is serious about peace with Israel.

What peace initiatives have they made?

What is their peace plan?

Please link to writing or speeches (videos or articles) by Hamas leaders.

Anglojew
08-05-2014, 08:55 AM
Don't all post at once

Hong Key
08-05-2014, 08:59 AM
All parties (Israel, Hakmas, US neo-cons) involved seem to want all out war.

Queen B
08-05-2014, 09:27 AM
Hamas' requests are humanitarian and lawfull. Not agressive

• IDF moving their tanks further into Israel from Gaza - Who doesn't want peace here. The one with the tanks or the ones that wants the killing-machines gone?
• Re-release of all prisoners freed in exchange for Gilad Shalit and arrested during Operation Brother's Keeper - Exchange prisoners. Selfexplenatory
• Remove blockage from all borders with the Rafah crossings on UN control - They don't even want it to be self controlled but UN controled. Who is the not-peacefull here?
• Establish an airport in Gaza under UN control - Self explenatory again
• Expand fishing zone to 13 km - Considering that in Oslo agreements the zone was 37.04 km, the Bertini agreements 22,22km, that IDF forced in 2006 to 11.1 km, and a couple of weeks ago to even less 5km !!!!!! Who is the aggresor here?
• Israel borders with Gaza controlled by the UN - Because we all have seen what Israel has done
• Israel cannot intervene in the Palestinian unity government - Duh, obviously
• Israel must give Gaza residents permission to visit Jerusalem and pray in the Al-Aqsa Mosque - Okay, they can skip that :lol:

Israel has done NOTHING towards peace, after Yitzak Rabin dies.

The settlers are getting more and more against Geneva conventions, their military presence is expandning, they have no respect over humanitarian laws, they limit the fishing areas more and more and expand their borders more and more.

EyeOfTheTiger
08-05-2014, 10:16 AM
Hamas' requests are humanitarian and lawfull. Not agressive

• IDF moving their tanks further into Israel from Gaza - Who doesn't want peace here. The one with the tanks or the ones that wants the killing-machines gone? the ones who build hundreds of tunnels where they can kidnap civilians and smuggle weapons. the ones who buy and make millions of rockets shooting them towards civillians. the ones who don't recognize the existence of israel in any borders in this place. the ones who kill innocent civillians and bomb themselves in the name of islam.
• Re-release of all prisoners freed in exchange for Gilad Shalit and arrested during Operation Brother's Keeper - Exchange prisoners. Selfexplenatoryexchange 2000 murderers with blood of innocent people on their hands(sitting in a prison with conditions in terms of 5 stars) with one soldier! sounds super fair!!
• Remove blockage from all borders with the Rafah crossings on UN control - They don't even want it to be self controlled but UN controled. Who is the not-peacefull here? what's not peaceful? hamas is ruling gaza 4 years illegaly. are you kidding me? remove blockade from egypt. remove it for them so they can get all the weapons they deserve in order to destroy us and kill our civillians.
• Establish an airport in Gaza under UN control - Self explenatory again
• Expand fishing zone to 13 km - Considering that in Oslo agreements the zone was 37.04 km, the Bertini agreements 22,22km, that IDF forced in 2006 to 11.1 km, and a couple of weeks ago to even less 5km !!!!!! Who is the aggresor here?
• Israel borders with Gaza controlled by the UN - Because we all have seen what Israel has done we all know the UN is full of hypocricy, anyways i dont have a problem with it. we all know what israel has done(defending itself obviously)
• Israel cannot intervene in the Palestinian unity government - Duh, obviously
• Israel must give Gaza residents permission to visit Jerusalem and pray in the Al-Aqsa Mosque - Okay, they can skip that :lol:

Israel has done NOTHING towards peace, after Yitzak Rabin dies.

The settlers are getting more and more against Geneva conventions, their military presence is expandning, they have no respect over humanitarian laws, they limit the fishing areas more and more and expand their borders more and more.
if palestinians drop there weapons- there will be palestine. if israelis drop the weapons- there will be no israel.
the settlers are just the same as they were always, lets see what happened in 2006 removing the thousands of settelemnts in gaza- did we get peace? :confused:
now let me remind you who broke 6 ceasefires, was it israel? :confused:

Methmatician
08-05-2014, 10:22 AM
if palestinians drop there weapons- there will be palestine. if israelis drop the weapons- there will be no israel.

Every time the Palestinians stop fighting they lose a little bit of their land. Eventually Israel will take over it all if they (the Palestinians and I guess the world community) don't do something about Israel.
http://www.deliberation.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/palestinian_land_loss_map.jpg

EyeOfTheTiger
08-05-2014, 10:24 AM
Every time the Palestinians stop fighting they lose a little bit of their land. Eventually Israel will take over it all if they (the Palestinians and I guess the world community) don't do something about Israel.
http://www.deliberation.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/palestinian_land_loss_map.jpg
you mean everytime palestinians start fighting they lose a little bit of their land*, palestinians with more arab surrounding countries started all of these wars. israel occupied these lands as a defending occupation response. believe me israel doesnt have any expanding ambitions
+this map is wrong.

Queen B
08-05-2014, 10:28 AM
Every time the Palestinians stop fighting they lose a little bit of their land. Eventually Israel will take over it all if they (the Palestinians and I guess the world community) don't do something about Israel.
http://www.deliberation.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/palestinian_land_loss_map.jpg

Not only this but also :

West bank population:
1983 - 22.000
1993 - 110.000
2004 - 235.000
2010 - 314.000
East Jerusalem :
1983 - 76.000
1993 - 152.000
2004 - 181.000
2010 - 198.000

So much for respecting international laws.

EyeOfTheTiger
08-05-2014, 10:36 AM
Not only this but also :

West bank population:
1983 - 22.000
1993 - 110.000
2004 - 235.000
2010 - 314.000
East Jerusalem :
1983 - 76.000
1993 - 152.000
2004 - 181.000
2010 - 198.000

So much for respecting international laws.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

"respect for international laws", first of all there wasnt an international law defining about what you have to do or not to do. only recommandations like the un resolution in 1948.
do you even know what illegal settlements mean? illegal settlements means transfering people in force from one place to another by the government. like stalin did in sibir and removing populations. israel doesnt do it, the international law doesnt prevent people independently moving to another place. check it please.
and if you check history that's not illegal even by the condemns, because there was never an independent government ruling the places of the settlements.
we can go by international law and justify the whole mandate of palestine including jordan to be belonged to the jews.

Methmatician
08-05-2014, 10:38 AM
believe me israel doesnt have any expanding ambitions.
And yet have been expanding into Palestinian territory ever since Israel was created. (http://www.nad-plo.org/userfiles/file/Reports/BLandGrab.pdf)

Flower
08-05-2014, 10:40 AM
The fact that hammas wants war proves they want peace, because there will be no peace until they remove the invaders. Not sure I want that to happen though. I don't want those horrid iraelis fleeing to the west.

EyeOfTheTiger
08-05-2014, 10:41 AM
And yet have been expanding into Palestinian territory ever since Israel was created. (http://www.nad-plo.org/userfiles/file/Reports/BLandGrab.pdf)
first of all that's betzelem, it's a biased organization.
secondly the palestinian territory never declared any independence, anyways im against those settlements in judea and samartia.

Methmatician
08-05-2014, 10:47 AM
first of all that's betzelem, it's a biased organization.
It's an Israeli human rights organisation that doesn't hide Israeli crimes. I guess that would be called 'biased' in Israel.

secondly the palestinian territory never declared any independence
Palestinian Declaration of Independence (http://www.un.int/wcm/content/site/palestine/pid/12353)

anyways im against those settlements in judea and samartia.
It's irrelevant whether or not you support Israel's occupation of the West Bank. You claimed Israel has no expansionary ambitions when they obviously do.

EyeOfTheTiger
08-05-2014, 10:55 AM
It's an Israeli human rights organisation that doesn't hide Israeli crimes. I guess that would be called 'biased' in Israel.
i follow their facebook page and they use to post fake photos and to distort facts.


Palestinian Declaration of Independence (http://www.un.int/wcm/content/site/palestine/pid/12353) yes did you read it?


It's irrelevant whether or not you support Israel's occupation of the West Bank. You claimed Israel has no expansionary ambitions when they obviously do.
israel removed it's settlements in gaza at 2006, israel gave up more than twice of it's land- the sinai peninsula, gaza strip and the west bank- which were all 'occupied' by jordan and egypt. and again those are not occupied territories but undefined ones, by international law.

Queen B
08-05-2014, 11:01 AM
Fourth Geneva Convention :

Article 49:

Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.
Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Such evacuations may not involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the occupied territory except when for material reasons it is impossible to avoid such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased.
The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family are not separated.
The Protecting Power shall be informed of any transfers and evacuations as soon as they have taken place.
The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand.
The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl/WebART/380-600056

EyeOfTheTiger
08-05-2014, 11:12 AM
Fourth Geneva Convention :

Article 49:

Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.
Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Such evacuations may not involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the occupied territory except when for material reasons it is impossible to avoid such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased.
The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family are not separated.
The Protecting Power shall be informed of any transfers and evacuations as soon as they have taken place.
The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand.
The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl/WebART/380-600056
exactly you just proved it.
1.those territories are not occupied by international but undefined territories.
2.israel doesnt move anyone forcibly to these territories, which means its not illegal. people go living there independently.

Queen B
08-05-2014, 11:36 AM
Israel IS considered an occupying country by international laws and organisation.

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?pr=71&code=mwp&p1=3&p2=4&p3=6&ca
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.nsf/47D4E277B48D9D3685256DDC00612265/C2A00B6E6E1C02CF8525798E00578F75
http://books.google.gr/books?id=e93JIwTBjHgC&pg=PA351&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

And the last sentence of the convention is crystal clear
The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

Key word : transfer.
Missing key word : Forcibly

Meaning: transfer population and NOT forcibly transfer population.

Instinct
08-05-2014, 11:46 AM
Well, I used to support Palestine against Israel. I still want the peace. Yesterday I have been attacked by Jihadist also the Jews on the forum. The Islamic people who supports Hamas against Israel: Jihadists who doesn't want any person with a different faith nearby or in muslim countries.

Anglojew
08-05-2014, 11:16 PM
All parties (Israel, Hakmas, US neo-cons) involved seem to want all out war.

The neo-cons aren't in power in the USA for a start.

Hong Key
08-06-2014, 12:25 AM
The neo-cons aren't in power in the USA for a start.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/International/AP_john_mccain_ukraine_sr_131215_16x9_608.jpg
http://previous.presstv.ir/photo/20140201/348788_US%20Senator%20John%20McCain.jpg

http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/John+McCain+Visits+Israel+4XtO_5Cq537x.jpg

http://previous.presstv.ir/photo/20140408/357696_John-McCain.jpg
http://rasica.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/mccain.jpg

Yehiel
08-06-2014, 12:28 AM
I am somewhat dissapointed that Israel agreed to the ceasefire and left Gaza, this was such a good chance to destroy Hamas.

Anglojew
08-06-2014, 12:31 AM
Hamas' requests are humanitarian and lawfull. Not agressive

• IDF moving their tanks further into Israel from Gaza - Who doesn't want peace here. The one with the tanks or the ones that wants the killing-machines gone?
• Re-release of all prisoners freed in exchange for Gilad Shalit and arrested during Operation Brother's Keeper - Exchange prisoners. Selfexplenatory
• Remove blockage from all borders with the Rafah crossings on UN control - They don't even want it to be self controlled but UN controled. Who is the not-peacefull here?
• Establish an airport in Gaza under UN control - Self explenatory again
• Expand fishing zone to 13 km - Considering that in Oslo agreements the zone was 37.04 km, the Bertini agreements 22,22km, that IDF forced in 2006 to 11.1 km, and a couple of weeks ago to even less 5km !!!!!! Who is the aggresor here?
• Israel borders with Gaza controlled by the UN - Because we all have seen what Israel has done
• Israel cannot intervene in the Palestinian unity government - Duh, obviously
• Israel must give Gaza residents permission to visit Jerusalem and pray in the Al-Aqsa Mosque - Okay, they can skip that :lol:

Israel has done NOTHING towards peace, after Yitzak Rabin dies.

The settlers are getting more and more against Geneva conventions, their military presence is expandning, they have no respect over humanitarian laws, they limit the fishing areas more and more and expand their borders more and more.

This is just a list of what Hamas wants. Obviously Israeli's believe that by giving in to Hamas demands then they are rewarding Hamas violence and this will just encourage more violence and more demands. What you're not discussing though is if Hamas wants peace with Israel once these objectives are achieved. What statements or evidence do you have to believe Hamas will stop at these demands and accept peace with Israel?

Anglojew
08-06-2014, 12:32 AM
I am somewhat dissapointed that Israel agreed to the ceasefire and left Gaza, this was such a good chance to destroy Hamas.

They probably think Hamas will be replaced with ISIS or some or some even worse group.

Yehiel
08-06-2014, 12:33 AM
They probably think Hamas will be replaced with ISIS or some or some even worse group.

From what i read, a significant amount maybe even a majority of the Israeli public are upset at the decision to withdraw.

Atleast most of the tunnels are gone

Anglojew
08-06-2014, 12:37 AM
From what i read, a significant amount maybe even a majority of the Israeli public are upset at the decision to withdraw.

Atleast most of the tunnels are gone

Yes, they seem to be asking to repeat the experience everytime Hamas runs out of money and attacks Israel again eg every 3 years.

Prisoner Of Ice
08-06-2014, 12:45 AM
Pacification is a form of peace. That's the kind of peace Islam dishes up. They bring a whole lot of peace whever they go.

Prisoner Of Ice
08-06-2014, 12:47 AM
Hamas' requests are humanitarian and lawfull. Not agressive

• IDF moving their tanks further into Israel from Gaza - Who doesn't want peace here. The one with the tanks or the ones that wants the killing-machines gone?
• Re-release of all prisoners freed in exchange for Gilad Shalit and arrested during Operation Brother's Keeper - Exchange prisoners. Selfexplenatory
• Remove blockage from all borders with the Rafah crossings on UN control - They don't even want it to be self controlled but UN controled. Who is the not-peacefull here?
• Establish an airport in Gaza under UN control - Self explenatory again
• Expand fishing zone to 13 km - Considering that in Oslo agreements the zone was 37.04 km, the Bertini agreements 22,22km, that IDF forced in 2006 to 11.1 km, and a couple of weeks ago to even less 5km !!!!!! Who is the aggresor here?
• Israel borders with Gaza controlled by the UN - Because we all have seen what Israel has done
• Israel cannot intervene in the Palestinian unity government - Duh, obviously
• Israel must give Gaza residents permission to visit Jerusalem and pray in the Al-Aqsa Mosque - Okay, they can skip that :lol:

Israel has done NOTHING towards peace, after Yitzak Rabin dies.

The settlers are getting more and more against Geneva conventions, their military presence is expandning, they have no respect over humanitarian laws, they limit the fishing areas more and more and expand their borders more and more.

lol

May as well give it up and admit greeks today are just middle easterners who like togas.

Prisoner Of Ice
08-06-2014, 12:48 AM
I am somewhat dissapointed that Israel agreed to the ceasefire and left Gaza, this was such a good chance to destroy Hamas.

They always get a PR nightmare whatever they do, and actual facts have no bearing on it. They are crazy not to just take all of gaza as their own territory and imprison all of hamas. That's what will eventually happen anyway.

KeinMitleid
08-06-2014, 01:05 AM
This is a pretty stupid thread. Is anyone even saying they do? Hamas wants Israel off the map. Whether or not Palestinian people/Fatah wants peace is a different story.

Anglojew
08-06-2014, 01:10 AM
The fact that hammas wants war proves they want peace, because there will be no peace until they remove the invaders. Not sure I want that to happen though. I don't want those horrid iraelis fleeing to the west.

So your idea of peace is if no Jews live in Palestine but you don't like Jews.

This is quite a typical attitude for Muslims and their apologists. Not exactly peaceful.

Anglojew
08-06-2014, 01:22 AM
Every time the Palestinians stop fighting they lose a little bit of their land. Eventually Israel will take over it all if they (the Palestinians and I guess the world community) don't do something about Israel.
http://www.deliberation.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/palestinian_land_loss_map.jpg

Actually the exact opposite is true. They lost land as a result of fighting in 1948 and 1967 and gained land due to peace agreements eg Oslo.

Anglojew
08-06-2014, 01:23 AM
Not only this but also :

West bank population:
1983 - 22.000
1993 - 110.000
2004 - 235.000
2010 - 314.000
East Jerusalem :
1983 - 76.000
1993 - 152.000
2004 - 181.000
2010 - 198.000

So much for respecting international laws.

How many Jews should be allowed to live in Palestine?

Yehiel
08-06-2014, 01:27 AM
Every time the Palestinians stop fighting they lose a little bit of their land. Eventually Israel will take over it all if they (the Palestinians and I guess the world community) don't do something about Israel.
http://www.deliberation.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/palestinian_land_loss_map.jpg

lol this map again. The Palestinians didnt agree the U.N Partition Plan, so it was never "Palestinian land". Between 1948-1967 Judea & Samaria was owned by Jordan, Gaza was owned by Egypt. Once again not "Palestinian land"

This land loss is the product of countless wars by the Arabs against Israel and losing.

Methmatician
08-06-2014, 01:36 AM
Actually the exact opposite is true. They lost land as a result of fighting in 1948 and 1967 and gained land due to peace agreements eg Oslo.
There is no war in the West Bank yet the Israeli government is taking their territory. Read the report.

Methmatician
08-06-2014, 01:38 AM
lol this map again. The Palestinians didnt agree the U.N Partition Plan, so it was never "Palestinian land". Between 1948-1967 Judea & Samaria was owned by Jordan, Gaza was owned by Egypt. Once again not "Palestinian land"
It's "Jewish" and "Palestinian" (people) not "Israeli" and "Palestinian" (country).

Yehiel
08-06-2014, 01:44 AM
It's "Jewish" and "Palestinian" (people) not "Israeli" and "Palestinian" (country).

Than why are the borders defined exactly how they were during those time periods? If it was about Palestinian land there would be green spots within the borders of Israeli land.

http://i.imgur.com/znN9UpR.png

Anglojew
08-06-2014, 01:46 AM
There is no war in the West Bank yet the Israeli government is taking their territory. Read the report.

The Palestinians controlled 0 land in the West Bank post-1948. It's only after Oslo that Palestinians received any land

http://www.whyisrael.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/map-areas-ABC-oslo-agreements.jpg

Methmatician
08-06-2014, 02:20 AM
The Palestinians controlled 0 land in the West Bank post-1948. It's only after Oslo that Palestinians received any land
The report details Israeli expansion into the West bank post-1948.

Than why are the borders defined exactly how they were during those time periods? If it was about Palestinian land there would be green spots within the borders of Israeli land.
The picture reads "Jewish" land on the first two maps. Then it became "Israeli" land on the last two maps (after 1948). Those Palestinian lands were not 'owned' by Egypt and Jordan, they were occupied by them.

Yehiel
08-06-2014, 02:29 AM
The report details Israeli expansion into the West bank post-1948.

The picture reads "Jewish" land on the first two maps. Then it became "Israeli" land on the last two maps (after 1948). Those Palestinian lands were not 'owned' by Egypt and Jordan, they were occupied by them.

the map is still lying because there is majority Palestinian land all over the Galilee.

Methmatician
08-06-2014, 02:33 AM
the map is still lying because there is majority Palestinian land all over the Galilee.
Your map is from 2000.

Yehiel
08-06-2014, 02:38 AM
Your map is from 2000.

so is yours

Methmatician
08-06-2014, 02:46 AM
so is yours
The one that shows the Palestinian territories in 2000 are Palestinian controlled territories.

Kale
08-06-2014, 02:46 AM
Who says they want peace? Maybe they just want their land back.

Yehiel
08-06-2014, 02:47 AM
The one that shows the Palestinian territories in 2000 are Palestinian controlled territories.

well now your contradicting yourself

Incal
08-06-2014, 02:49 AM
Neither part wants peace, both are just a bunch of fanatic fucks. The only thing that pisses me off tho is that other muslim countries are such a bunch of pussies that don't join Palestine to cause some real damage to Israel and even things up.

Methmatician
08-06-2014, 02:49 AM
well now your contradicting yourself
There are four maps. The first two show where the Palestinians were populated. The last two show what areas are controlled by the Palestinians. What did I say that was contradictory?

Yehiel
08-06-2014, 02:50 AM
Neither part wants peace, both are just a bunch of fanatic fucks. The only thing that pisses me off tho is that other muslim countries are such a bunch of pussies that don't join Palestine to cause some real damage to Israel and even things up.

theyve tried in the past, failed all times. they dont care that much anymore, plus they are having their own problems at the moment

Prisoner Of Ice
08-06-2014, 03:13 AM
Israel IS considered an occupying country by international laws and organisation.

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?pr=71&code=mwp&p1=3&p2=4&p3=6&ca
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.nsf/47D4E277B48D9D3685256DDC00612265/C2A00B6E6E1C02CF8525798E00578F75
http://books.google.gr/books?id=e93JIwTBjHgC&pg=PA351&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

And the last sentence of the convention is crystal clear
The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

Key word : transfer.
Missing key word : Forcibly

Meaning: transfer population and NOT forcibly transfer population.

Are you retarded? Seriously?

First off this is talking about a situation where two nations conflict. There's no west bank country, the whole thing is one big country where the jews moved into an occupied (by british) territory which already had a ton of jews, and declared it was the land of israel. There was no country to invade so much as they simply defended themselves from (some) of the locals who were part of the territory who denied their right to form a nation. It's some tiny pathetic scraps of land that obviously should be incorporated into one of the surrounding countries. Historically Israel makes as much sense as anywhere.

Second, this is talking about colonization of land taken in a war from an independent nation by deporting undesirables by force from your own country or other occupied territories. Which historically is a very common practice. Since they are not force-colonizing anyone and are not occupying another country and since this is all legally owned land, they are not violating anything. What they really have is some ultra violent retards who came to Israel as conquerors in the first place, they are no more palestinian than the jews are, and the number of jews and christians has historically always been higher than the number of camel fuckers. Many of them were only transient in the first place who didn't ever officially belong to ANY country, which is relatively new to the middle east. Many others flooded in trying to get work with Israel, many others came in just to fight jews in the 40s and were not allowed back. Yet more came in during laters wars and againw ere not let back.

Ironically this kind of deportation is exactly what the fucking arabs did to the jews in the first place. They occupied their lands and annexed them, and then deported or killed off as many jews and christians as they could.

Israel is the first independent nation every created out of this territory. There is no occupation of palestine because there was never any such country as palestine. What they are claiming is Israel is an illegal state in the first place, which is BS because there's never been any other independent country there, jews have been there since it was founded, and they were the original settlers. That's what they mean by occupation. But guess what? Jews came to palestine area legally, they declared themselves independent FROM THE BRITISH and the arab MINORITY attacked them. Now if they had been interested in democracy, well that's it it would have been one big jewish state anyway. However these invaders and transients and militants from abroad had no interest in anyone having a say in the governance of the area but themselves and wanted to kill off all the jews - as they had slowly been doing for centuries.

Well, they lost that 'war' or rather insurgency. This is the consequence. Now they could have sued for peace and come back into the fold of the country. Or they could have stayed independent or tried to become part of one of the neighboring states. But they have no interest in anything but the fantasy of taking "their" land (which is no more theirs than anyone who's in israel now, arguably a lot less since they were a combination of conquerors and gypsy vagrants). Yes, that's right, they attacked the REST of the palestinians, the MAJORITY and then act as if they were conquered by outsiders, when that is how the arabs came there in the first place! This fantasy is pulled purely out of fairy tales and will never work out. As long as they stick to it all they will achieve is starvation.

Incal
08-06-2014, 05:24 AM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t1.0-9/1907758_666066300153534_4700999428153066274_n.jpg

Queen B
08-06-2014, 05:41 AM
This is just a list of what Hamas wants. Obviously Israeli's believe that by giving in to Hamas demands then they are rewarding Hamas violence and this will just encourage more violence and more demands.
There are nothing non-peacefull on that list. In fact, half of the requests are contributing to peace (removing tanks, having UN to control borders, airport, having Israel to back of from their politics).

What you're not discussing though is if Hamas wants peace with Israel once these objectives are achieved. What statements or evidence do you have to believe Hamas will stop at these demands and accept peace with Israel?
Well this is something that you will never know, it seems. Since Israel does NOTHING for peace, and instead, is becoming more and more agressive.

lol
May as well give it up and admit greeks today are just middle easterners who like togas.
Come on Melonhead. With your IQ, and you don't know that togas aren't Greek but Roman? :picard2: Greeks wore Chitons :picard2:

Anglojew
08-06-2014, 06:20 AM
Who says they want peace? Maybe they just want their land back.

Which land?

Prisoner Of Ice
08-06-2014, 06:24 AM
Are you retarded? Seriously?

First off this is talking about a situation where two nations conflict. There's no west bank country, the whole thing is one big country where the jews moved into an occupied (by british) territory which already had a ton of jews, and declared it was the land of israel. There was no country to invade so much as they simply defended themselves from (some) of the locals who were part of the territory who denied their right to form a nation. It's some tiny pathetic scraps of land that obviously should be incorporated into one of the surrounding countries. Historically Israel makes as much sense as anywhere.

Second, this is talking about colonization of land taken in a war from an independent nation by deporting undesirables by force from your own country or other occupied territories. Which historically is a very common practice. Since they are not force-colonizing anyone and are not occupying another country and since this is all legally owned land, they are not violating anything. What they really have is some ultra violent retards who came to Israel as conquerors in the first place, they are no more palestinian than the jews are, and the number of jews and christians has historically always been higher than the number of camel fuckers. Many of them were only transient in the first place who didn't ever officially belong to ANY country, which is relatively new to the middle east. Many others flooded in trying to get work with Israel, many others came in just to fight jews in the 40s and were not allowed back. Yet more came in during laters wars and againw ere not let back.

Ironically this kind of deportation is exactly what the fucking arabs did to the jews in the first place. They occupied their lands and annexed them, and then deported or killed off as many jews and christians as they could.

Israel is the first independent nation every created out of this territory. There is no occupation of palestine because there was never any such country as palestine. What they are claiming is Israel is an illegal state in the first place, which is BS because there's never been any other independent country there, jews have been there since it was founded, and they were the original settlers. That's what they mean by occupation. But guess what? Jews came to palestine area legally, they declared themselves independent FROM THE BRITISH and the arab MINORITY attacked them. Now if they had been interested in democracy, well that's it it would have been one big jewish state anyway. However these invaders and transients and militants from abroad had no interest in anyone having a say in the governance of the area but themselves and wanted to kill off all the jews - as they had slowly been doing for centuries.

Well, they lost that 'war' or rather insurgency. This is the consequence. Now they could have sued for peace and come back into the fold of the country. Or they could have stayed independent or tried to become part of one of the neighboring states. But they have no interest in anything but the fantasy of taking "their" land (which is no more theirs than anyone who's in israel now, arguably a lot less since they were a combination of conquerors and gypsy vagrants). Yes, that's right, they attacked the REST of the palestinians, the MAJORITY and then act as if they were conquered by outsiders, when that is how the arabs came there in the first place! This fantasy is pulled purely out of fairy tales and will never work out. As long as they stick to it all they will achieve is starvation.

Also ironic is that the situation with jews in israel is exactly the same as greeks with greece. They were both taken over by arabs and both part of the ottoman empire. The ONLY difference is that the arabs would not take their own people back into their countries while the turks did, leading to this messed up situation.

Queen B
08-06-2014, 06:49 AM
Also ironic is that the situation with jews in israel is exactly the same as greeks with greece. They were both taken over by arabs and both part of the ottoman empire. The ONLY difference is that the arabs would not take their own people back into their countries while the turks did, leading to this messed up situation.
Even comparing those two is idiotic to the core. :picard2:
You should stop speaking when you have no clue about history, especially about Greek history.

Let me point out some of ''only differences''.
• Greece was never under Arabs. Only Crete, and only from 824 to 961.
• Greeks didn't live in several countries of Europe and decided to return to a country that ''God'' promised them.
The presence in Greece country is continious.
• Greeks and Turks have not war, they have diplomatic relations, they have tourism deals from each country, and except the good-ol-hatred, there is nothing much. You don't see Turks firing rockets or bombing Greek kids with phosphorus, and neither the vice versa.
• Ottoman rule lasted 400 years and the Byzantine rule lasted over 1000. The rule of Israel is the last 60 years.
• Greek presence in today's Turkey was very long, and quite populous.
And not only Turks got their people back though (500.000) , but Greeks as well (1.2 million)

I have a common in both stories though. Turks commited a genocide over Pontic Greeks, Israel is starting one over Palestinians

Anglojew
08-06-2014, 08:06 AM
There are nothing non-peacefull on that list. In fact, half of the requests are contributing to peace (removing tanks, having UN to control borders, airport, having Israel to back of from their politics).

Well this is something that you will never know, it seems. Since Israel does NOTHING for peace, and instead, is becoming more and more agressive.

Come on Melonhead. With your IQ, and you don't know that togas aren't Greek but Roman? :picard2: Greeks wore Chitons :picard2:

Israel withdrew from Gaza entirely and expelled all Jews. They gave the Gazans the settlers infrastructure eg farms.

Queen B
08-06-2014, 08:22 AM
Israel withdrew from Gaza entirely and expelled all Jews. They gave the Gazans the settlers infrastructure eg farms.
''I'm kicking your from your house, and out of the goodness of my heart I'm giving you one room for you. Look at me how great I am''.

Anglojew
08-06-2014, 08:59 AM
''I'm kicking your from your house, and out of the goodness of my heart I'm giving you one room for you. Look at me how great I am''.

78% of Palestine is Jordan.

Queen B
08-06-2014, 09:20 AM
78% of Palestine is Jordan.
:nono::nono::nono:
Part of British Mandate of Palestine is now modern Jordan.
However, the Trans-Jordan, (that part -aka present Jordan) had a fully autonomous system from the British Mandate.
While.... 100 % of Israel is British Mandate of Palestine.

I repeat :

''I'm kicking your from your house, and out of the goodness of my heart I'm giving you one room for you. Look at me how great I am''.

Arianiti
08-06-2014, 09:38 AM
Neither part wants peace, both are just a bunch of fanatic fucks. The only thing that pisses me off tho is that other muslim countries are such a bunch of pussies that don't join Palestine to cause some real damage to Israel and even things up.

Not only this but it seems they have agreements with Un or Israeli that in case of war israel-palestine they should close borders and forbid civilians or refugees to escape and enter their countries, strange isn;t it?

Anglo stop bs no one believes in Israeli innocence, it is different thing that they support muslim killings. The hate towards Muslims is so enormous as to cheer children killings. :picard1:

Enough with these threads who the fuck are you trying to fool??!

Anglojew
08-06-2014, 09:46 AM
:nono::nono::nono:
Part of British Mandate of Palestine is now modern Jordan.
However, the Trans-Jordan, (that part -aka present Jordan) had a fully autonomous system from the British Mandate.
While.... 100 % of Israel is British Mandate of Palestine.

I repeat :

''I'm kicking your from your house, and out of the goodness of my heart I'm giving you one room for you. Look at me how great I am''.

No, you're wrong. 100% of Jordan was also part of the British mandate:

http://www.justicenow4israel.com/image/1920-boundaryconventionmap.jpg

Queen B
08-06-2014, 10:29 AM
No, you're wrong. 100% of Jordan was also part of the British mandate:

:picard2:
What you say doesn't make what I say wrong :picard2:
I said that part of the British Mandate of Palestine, is now modern Jordan. :picard2: Read again.

Prisoner Of Ice
08-06-2014, 11:19 AM
''I'm kicking your from your house, and out of the goodness of my heart I'm giving you one room for you. Look at me how great I am''.

Except they were never kicked out, and there was never such a country as palestine. Jews lived all among them, they were one group and there was never an invasion of one country by another - neither of them had a country at the time, but arabs chose to fight rather than work with others. Like I said, situation is exactly like greece, except you are rooting for the turks and demanding greeks pay them reparations. Holy crap you are insane.

Prisoner Of Ice
08-06-2014, 11:28 AM
Queen B sorry, you are just a massive bigot, that's all there is to it. Same goes for your loony nationalistic beliefs about greece, alexander the great etc. I am pretty shocked how common this kind of crazy attitude is in Greece, logic really doesn't enter into it in the least.

Queen B
08-06-2014, 11:30 AM
Except they were never kicked out, and there was never such a country as palestine. Jews lived all among them, they were one group and there was never an invasion of one country by another - neither of them had a country at the time, but arabs chose to fight rather than work with others. Like I said, situation is exactly like greece, except you are rooting for the turks and demanding greeks pay them reparations. Holy crap you are insane.
Are you THAT dumb? Which Greece ?
Or you are reffering to Republic of Cyprus, Einstein?
:picard2::picard2::picard2::picard2::picard2:

You don't even know THAT kind of basic things? IQ over 155 - my ass :picard2:

Illancha
08-06-2014, 11:51 AM
No, you're wrong. 100% of Jordan was also part of the British mandate:
Countries do not belong to occupiers which is exactly what Britain was (and the Ottoman Empire before then). You cannot give another something that was never yours by right, that is a terrible injustice.

Countries belong to the people that actually live there and it is they who should have the final say in the future of their country.

Styrian Mujo
08-06-2014, 11:58 AM
I don't know by what right did the Jews claim that patch of land. How can Jews claim land that they lost almost 2000 years?

Kale
08-06-2014, 03:52 PM
I don't know by what right did the Jews claim that patch of land. How can Jews claim land that they lost almost 2000 years?

Right, return Canaan to the Phoenicians! (better than either the Jews or Arabs at this point).

EyeOfTheTiger
08-06-2014, 04:02 PM
Right, return Canaan to the Phoenicians! (better than either the Jews or Arabs at this point).
why not neanderthals

Kale
08-06-2014, 04:11 PM
why not neanderthals

That works too.