Óðinn and Shamanism

[Vargtand]

Edit: Thread split from here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8170)


I've known of some of Odin's various names and meanings, but it's an interesting list. From a Shamanic perspective he could easily be summoned for a specific purpose - as I'm sure he is. Has anyone applied this kind of summoning to their rites, and if so, what was the purpose, along with the end result? I'm not meaning to go off-topic but I'm curious. As a Shaman, I work along those lines.

Just one thing though.. Shamanism was never part of Asatro, at least not to my knowledge; I know that the Sami had lots of shamanism though.

[Psychonaut]

Just one thing though.. Shamanism was never part of Asatro, at least not to my knowledge; I know that the Sami had lots of shamanism though.

That Odin was originally a shamanic deity is pretty well established in academia. There's an interesting article in the first issue of the Journal of Germanic Folklore and Mythology that I posted here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1263) that deals with his origins. Also, if you can get a copy of Shamanism by Mircea Eliade, he provides probably the best sourced argument in favor of that position.

EDIT: Here's another great essay Shamanism and the Image of the Teutonic Deity Óðinn (http://www.folklore.ee/Folklore/vol10/teuton.htm) by Asbjørn Jøn.

[Brynhild]

Just one thing though.. Shamanism was never part of Asatro, at least not to my knowledge; I know that the Sami had lots of shamanism though.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I am of the understanding that Odin is a Shaman. The word Shaman itself is probably an incorrect one to use to start with, but that is one I'm used to.

Odin would most certainly have been a teacher gifted with site, who journeyed into the underworld - hence the hanging from Yggdrasil for 9 days. It is usually perceived as a Shamanic journey. His reward was the runes, along with the knowledge from his underworld journeys.

[Vargtand]

That Odin was originally a shamanic deity is pretty well established in academia. There's an interesting article in the first issue of the Journal of Germanic Folklore and Mythology that I posted here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1263) that deals with his origins. Also, if you can get a copy of Shamanism by Mircea Eliade, he provides probably the best sourced argument in favor of that position.

Well, that the origence that he was a shamanistic god, does not directly make it so that in Asatro shamanism would be utilised.
Oden was the god of Sejd. That's what I know it from at least. But I hate to admit I am not into magic being a man after all.

But one might call it shamanism though I think it would be more proper to call it what it was called and not what historians call it.

I shall check it out.



Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I am of the understanding that Odin is a Shaman. The word Shaman itself is probably an incorrect one to use to start with, but that is one I'm used to.

Odin would most certainly have been a teacher gifted with site, who journeyed into the underworld - hence the hanging from Yggdrasil for 9 days. It is usually perceived as a Shamanic journey. His reward was the runes, along with the knowledge from his underworld journeys.

He was thought magic by freja though not by reciving the runes.


Alright, I have to say I am not to familiar with shamanism to begin with but what exactly does hanging from a tree upside down, dying and then be resurrected have to do specifically with shamanism?
I mean nothing ill with the question I am curios, self enlighten trough hardship yes, a struggle for inner peace perhaps, a sort of masochistic form of meditation at worst :P

[Brynhild]

Well, that the origence that he was a shamanistic god, does not directly make it so that in Asatro shamanism would be utilised.
Oden was the god of Sejd. That's what I know it from at least. But I hate to admit I am not into magic being a man after all.

But one might call it shamanism though I think it would be more proper to call it what it was called and not what historians call it.

I shall check it out.

Aww, don't want to tap into your feminine side? Tsk Tsk :confused:
Sidr and Shamanism are one and the same, and practical magic serves a great purpose - but then again, I'm a woman after all :p

[Psychonaut]

Oden was the god of Sejd. That's what I know it from at least. But I hate to admit I am not into magic being a man after all.

Actually, Óðinn learned seið from Frejya, since it was thought by the Norse to be the domain of women. However, Rune magic, which seems to have been male dominated, was certainly Óðinn's specialty.


But one might call it shamanism though I think it would be more proper to call it what it was called and not what historians call it.

Shamanism and seið are not exactly the same thing. Seið and the Runes both developed from shamanism, but are not shamanism per se. Perhaps it would be more correct to call Wōđanaz a strictly shamanic deity, whereas Óðinn was a magician deity influenced by old Germanic shamanism.


Alright, I have to say I am not to familiar with shamanism to begin with but what exactly does hanging from a tree upside down, dying and then be resurrected have to do specifically with shamanism?

Tree based initiation rites seem to have been a universal practice for shamans in most of Neolithic Europe and North Asia. They're still practiced by a handful of Siberian tribes. The Hangagoð's connection to Yggdrasil (Ygg's steed) certainly show his shamanic roots.

[Vargtand]

Actually, Óðinn learned seið from Frejya, since it was thought by the Norse to be the domain of women. However, Rune magic, which seems to have been male dominated, was certainly Óðinn's specialty.
Yeah that was what I wrote he was thought magic (aka sejd) by freja, He was how ever seen as the formost sejdare, so aparently he surpassed his teacher.

Are you entirely sure rune magic was dominated by men? I was led to the impression that rune magic was included into the term sejd, of course that he introduced it but after all him being a god, I don't see how we should question his motivations :P



Shamanism and seið are not exactly the same thing. Seið and the Runes both developed from shamanism, but are not shamanism per se. Perhaps it would be more correct to call Wōđanaz a strictly shamanic deity, whereas Óðinn was a magician deity influenced by old Germanic shamanism.


Yes I think that would be a fair compromise, though I do not doubt that in different sub-cultures of the Germanic people he had more, or less of the traits of the former god.




Tree based initiation rites seem to have been a universal practice for shamans in most of Neolithic Europe and North Asia. They're still practiced by a handful of Siberian tribes. The Hangagoð's connection to Yggdrasil (Ygg's steed) certainly show his shamanic roots.

Well who can blaim them it is a cool concept ;)

I'm unsure [in here should be a good argument but I have not figured one out] I just get a sense that just because something is prevalent in one type of religion that the procedure is strictly belonging to that form of religious practice, seems a bit odd.

Oh well it is just a feeling I get, I’m trying to place my self in their shoes :P


Aww, don't want to tap into your feminine side? Tsk Tsk :confused:
Sidr and Shamanism are one and the same, and practical magic serves a great purpose - but then again, I'm a woman after all :p

Don't want to end up with Lokes daughter ;)

[Psychonaut]

Are you entirely sure rune magic was dominated by men? I was led to the impression that rune magic was included into the term sejd, of course that he introduced it but after all him being a god, I don't see how we should question his motivations :P

None of the descriptions in the Lore that I can think of give us any examples of women doing anything with Runes. Any time females perform magic in the Lore they are usually Völvas and are performing some sort of oracular magic. I'm thinking specifically of The Saga of Erik the Red and the Völuspá .

[Vargtand]

None of the descriptions in the Lore that I can think of give us any examples of women doing anything with Runes. Any time females perform magic in the Lore they are usually Völvas and are performing some sort of oracular magic. I'm thinking specifically of The Saga of Erik the Red and the Völuspá .

Not Monty pythons Erik the red then? :p

I find it strange though, that runes would be tolerated by not sejd, as from what I understand the primary reasons for sejd not being accepted was pretty much for the same reasons knights hated archers, it struck from afar.. Now with rune enchantments and rune magic would not basically the same effect been reached? Or have I misunderstood the extent to which runes were considered magical?

as I can see enchantments and such things as semi acceptable, a bit like steroid use but hell anything is fair in war, except for archery if you are a rustbucket:P

[Psychonaut]

Not Monty pythons Erik the red then? :p

:D


I find it strange though, that runes would be tolerated by not sejd, as from what I understand the primary reasons for sejd not being accepted was pretty much for the same reasons knights hated archers, it struck from afar.. Now with rune enchantments and rune magic would not basically the same effect been reached? Or have I misunderstood the extent to which runes were considered magical?

Don't forget that a lot of the Iron Age Runic inscriptions that have survived are on the blades of swords or the tips of spears that were enchanted by the Vitkis for the use of the warriors. Also, there are several instance in the Sagas (I'm thinking of Egil here) of warriors who use Runes for a variety of purposes, martial and non-martial.

[Vargtand]

:D



Don't forget that a lot of the Iron Age Runic inscriptions that have survived are on the blades of swords or the tips of spears that were enchanted by the Vitkis for the use of the warriors. Also, there are several instance in the Sagas (I'm thinking of Egil here) of warriors who use Runes for a variety of purposes, martial and non-martial.

True enough, That is what I thought was the main use of them, though curses could be inscribed as well as good magic, so I wonder if there was made an distinction.

Or it could simply be that the sejd rituals were highly sexual, and them back then as we do now still prefer to see women in such roles :p

But if this is true, my resentment for the so called tarot women especially those that use runes now is even bigger than it was before… :p

[Brynhild]

He was thought magic by freja though not by reciving the runes.

Actually, I never implied that to be as such. I am aware of how Freya taught Odin the ways of magic. Thanks for the reminder though.


Alright, I have to say I am not to familiar with shamanism to begin with but what exactly does hanging from a tree upside down, dying and then be resurrected have to do specifically with shamanism?
I mean nothing ill with the question I am curios, self enlighten trough hardship yes, a struggle for inner peace perhaps, a sort of masochistic form of meditation at worst :P

We need to remember that in dealing with myths one musn't take the meaning so literally. I admire curiosity in people and it's a valid question, so I'll explain it from my perspective and experience.

When a Shaman takes that first step into the underworld, there lurks a great many dangers, along with illusions. Your life can flash before your eyes, there are inner demons that one must face. There is a brutal honesty in which one must own up to completely about oneself. Games can also be played so you need to see through illusions for what they really are. There are trials, tests and hardship, based on looking deeper inside the self.

If a person isn't strong enough to endure such an endeavour - and the right conditions also play a part - you could go mad. You're never the same again, anyway. But the long-term rewards are an incredible wealth of spiritual knowledge, psychic and healing abilities.


Tree based initiation rites seem to have been a universal practice for shamans in most of Neolithic Europe and North Asia. They're still practiced by a handful of Siberian tribes. The Hangagoð's connection to Yggdrasil (Ygg's steed) certainly show his shamanic roots.

I'm interested in attempting that sort of rite, because trees can speak and they carry their own brand of inner wisdom and power. Not for the fainthearted though.


I'm unsure [in here should be a good argument but I have not figured one out] I just get a sense that just because something is prevalent in one type of religion that the procedure is strictly belonging to that form of religious practice, seems a bit odd.

Like any religion, there is never going to be any one uniform practise. They evolved - like everything else - according to where and how people lived.


Don't want to end up with Lokes daughter ;)

Ye Gods, neither would I! Thankfully, my daughter is a gorgeous 5'7' blue eyed blonde. :D

[Vargtand]

Actually, I never implied that to be as such. I am aware of how Freya taught Odin the ways of magic. Thanks for the reminder though.

Oh I never implied that, magic is not my strong side so that was more my ignorance than anything else that was bunching it togheter.



We need to remember that in dealing with myths one musn't take the meaning so literally. I admire curiosity in people and it's a valid question, so I'll explain it from my perspective and experience.

When a Shaman takes that first step into the underworld, there lurks a great many dangers, along with illusions. Your life can flash before your eyes, there are inner demons that one must face. There is a brutal honesty in which one must own up to completely about oneself. Games can also be played so you need to see through illusions for what they really are. There are trials, tests and hardship, based on looking deeper inside the self.

If a person isn't strong enough to endure such an endeavour - and the right conditions also play a part - you could go mad. You're never the same again, anyway. But the long-term rewards are an incredible wealth of spiritual knowledge, psychic and healing abilities.

Now before I say this let me first say this: I imply nothing bad with this it is simply my first reaction to it, nor do I imply anything with it:

I have a couple of friends, who abuses substances, and what you describe sounds almost identical to what they have described with their use of highly potent drugs. It may be (and I think it was) to reach that state where your body and mind is so broken that it is receptive to all demons, and that as a form of enlightenment I suppose.

But I am unaware if that is shamanistic in nature. As I said before I don’t know shamanism very well, for me that is chanting and calling for the rain and stuff like that :P (alright I know a bit more but not when it comes to this though).


I'm interested in attempting that sort of rite, because trees can speak and they carry their own brand of inner wisdom and power. Not for the fainthearted though.


Oh noes you are not a true shaman then! :p


Like any religion, there is never going to be any one uniform practise. They evolved - like everything else - according to where and how people lived.


I agree, except if it is gypsies.. they are the same everywhere :P


Ye Gods, neither would I! Thankfully, my daughter is a gorgeous 5'7' blue eyed blonde. :D

Well Hel, was half a beautiful maiden and half a corpse, so I guess your daughter is halfway then :P

[Brynhild]

Oh I never implied that, magic is not my strong side so that was more my ignorance than anything else that was bunching it togheter. I was not wanting to be misinterpreted was all, but fair enough.




Now before I say this let me first say this: I imply nothing bad with this it is simply my first reaction to it, nor do I imply anything with it:

I have a couple of friends, who abuses substances, and what you describe sounds almost identical to what they have described with their use of highly potent drugs. It may be (and I think it was) to reach that state where your body and mind is so broken that it is receptive to all demons, and that as a form of enlightenment I suppose.

But I am unaware if that is shamanistic in nature. As I said before I don’t know shamanism very well, for me that is chanting and calling for the rain and stuff like that :P (alright I know a bit more but not when it comes to this though).

I believe that to be true of some Shamans, and drugs will open those doors. Shamans used drugs very sparingly, in any case, and it's no excuse for excessive drug use and abuse. Frankly, I'm quite able to open the doors without the aid of drugs.


Oh noes you are not a true shaman then! :p

I will say here right now, that I am well above the ideology of the tree hugging hippy who has no basic understanding of their heritage and culture - let alone what nature is truly about. On the contrary, that understanding alone makes me a true Shaman indeed. :tongue


Well Hel, was half a beautiful maiden and half a corpse, so I guess your daughter is halfway then :P

An interesting double entendre for me to ponder. I can take it in the manner of the suggestion that I am an ugly giant. Fortunately for you, you need never know.

[Vargtand]

I was not wanting to be misinterpreted was all, but fair enough.

I meant no spite :)




I believe that to be true of some Shamans, and drugs will open those doors. Shamans used drugs very sparingly, in any case, and it's no excuse for excessive drug use and abuse. Frankly, I'm quite able to open the doors without the aid of drugs.

Well I think we had quite a high frequency of substance abuse back then, among the normal people so I doubt that the sejders were much better in that regard either (don't think the sober movement started that early :P)

I never used drugs, never intend to Find it an ridicules practice. Now if one dabbles with magic, if your mental and spiritual affinity is not strong enough to do without the use of substances should one be dealing with it at all? Seems a bit of cheating, and cheating is cowardice and as I am a man I can’t be doing that Hench why I can’t be dealing with sejd which is also cheating :P (these are mostly joking references but there is a grain of truth even here)


I will say here right now, that I am well above the ideology of the tree hugging hippy who has no basic understanding of their heritage and culture - let alone what nature is truly about. On the contrary, that understanding alone makes me a true Shaman indeed. :tongue

I think humility was a trait even my forefathers respected (at times :P)
(That would actually not be that hard to think considering how the social laws have been in small communities since ages past, and still is... Jantes Law anyone?) But that is a highly hypothetical discussion as it is hard to tell how much the church influence changed the small town peoples perception on people in their communities.

You make a valid point though, with this outlook, of cultural understanding and heritage, would you agree that one can not pick things from one culture /religious practice and put it into an other religion/culture and expect it to work the same or work at all?

I would say one should be very weary of mixing say celtic magic into Asatros sejd, as (and this is my personal opinion) that the magic in celtic myth and legend, even though they share many parallels. they are not identical which means that magic that was developed for the celtic people, for their religions for their gods, may not be listened to maybe not even understood if it is mixed together with Sejd.

Just a purely hypothetical question, It is one of my biggest resentment to Newage and Wiccia namely that it picks and chooses what it think it needs...


An interesting double entendre for me to ponder. I can take it in the manner of the suggestion that I am an ugly giant. Fortunately for you, you need never know.
Hehe that was only intended at complimenting your daughter nothing else :P

[Brynhild]

I meant no spite :)

None was taken. Just my way of being concise and dispelling any misunderstandings which can - and do - occur, especially between those peoples where English is not their mother tongue.


Well I think we had quite a high frequency of substance abuse back then, among the normal people so I doubt that the sejders were much better in that regard either (don't think the sober movement started that early :P)

We can only speculate, but it is certainly a possibility.


I never used drugs, never intend to Find it an ridicules practice. Now if one dabbles with magic, if your mental and spiritual affinity is not strong enough to do without the use of substances should one be dealing with it at all? Seems a bit of cheating, and cheating is cowardice and as I am a man I can’t be doing that Hench why I can’t be dealing with sejd which is also cheating :P (these are mostly joking references but there is a grain of truth even here)

I'm not sure I can answer that without sounding like a hypocrite, as I did use drugs, but not for that purpose. It opened up the worse can of worms possible, but in saying that - at least on reflection - I was tapping into some spiritual source that I wasn't aware of. It's like I said, I can open those doors without the aid of drugs and I refuse to use them again for any reason. As for what constitutes cheating, that comes down to a personal view.


I think humility was a trait even my forefathers respected (at times :P)
(That would actually not be that hard to think considering how the social laws have been in small communities since ages past, and still is... Jantes Law anyone?) But that is a highly hypothetical discussion as it is hard to tell how much the church influence changed the small town peoples perception on people in their communities.

It may appear that my remark previous to yours bordered on the arrogant side, which was unintentional. I just didn't want to be tarred with a particular brush by your implication. Humility is a trait that I will always honour and respect, and I freely admit to still having a lot to learn in terms of my life and experiences.


You make a valid point though, with this outlook, of cultural understanding and heritage, would you agree that one can not pick things from one culture /religious practice and put it into an other religion/culture and expect it to work the same or work at all?

I do.


I would say one should be very weary of mixing say celtic magic into Asatros sejd, as (and this is my personal opinion) that the magic in celtic myth and legend, even though they share many parallels. they are not identical which means that magic that was developed for the celtic people, for their religions for their gods, may not be listened to maybe not even understood if it is mixed together with Sejd.

I, too, would rather not mix the two, but sometimes there are parallels. The Celtic practise is more Druidic in nature, and a separate entity in itself. I would never invoke deities from both the pantheons simultaneously - a big no-no in my book. Very disrespectful. The same would apply to both areas of magic.


Just a purely hypothetical question, It is one of my biggest resentment to Newage and Wiccia namely that it picks and chooses what it think it needs...

A pet hate of mine too, actually, even though some of my closest friends practise along those lines. I just can't justify how different practises can be brought in in such a fashion that is not only never fully understood, it is really an insult to those peoples and cultures they abuse, due to that lack of understanding. Also, since it isn't of my heritage, I just don't feel comfortable with it.



Hehe that was only intended at complimenting your daughter nothing else :P

Yes, she is at the threshold. I tend to see double meanings in remarks and I love to point them out, along with seeing the funny side :D

[Vargtand]

None was taken. Just my way of being concise and dispelling any misunderstandings which can - and do - occur, especially between those peoples where English is not their mother tongue.

That you wont need to worry about, I only have a problem with detecting sarcasm in text, not with the language it self.

I have you know I was the best at my school in english. Not at spelling obviously but at my understanding of it. Just don't speak slang :P


We can only speculate, but it is certainly a possibility.

Though then again, I am quite found of having semi romantic views of my forefathers, after all they are heroes, they are intended to inspire. I often question the validity of trying to make historical figures seem more human… as it defeats the point of romanticising about them.

Heroes in Germanic myths never died, they retreated from the world only to await the final battle. To demystify them I think is quite dangerous. From a role-model perspective.

It is as children need to believe when they are young that their father is a hero, that he can do anything, that he is the king where he works. Anything else might cause the child to feel lesser about his family and in turn lesser about him self, and do we really want children to grow up like that?



I'm not sure I can answer that without sounding like a hypocrite, as I did use drugs, but not for that purpose. It opened up the worse can of worms possible, but in saying that - at least on reflection - I was tapping into some spiritual source that I wasn't aware of. It's like I said, I can open those doors without the aid of drugs and I refuse to use them again for any reason. As for what constitutes cheating, that comes down to a personal view.

I did not intend for this to force you to confess any past mistakes not at all.
Of course it does, I respect my forefathers enough to use their views as guidelines. Pluss of course common machoness :p


It may appear that my remark previous to yours bordered on the arrogant side, which was unintentional. I just didn't want to be tarred with a particular brush by your implication. Humility is a trait that I will always honour and respect, and I freely admit to still having a lot to learn in terms of my life and experiences.


No not at all I was merely being sarcastic, you need not worry about that ;)


I do.

:)


I, too, would rather not mix the two, but sometimes there are parallels. The Celtic practise is more Druidic in nature, and a separate entity in itself. I would never invoke deities from both the pantheons simultaneously - a big no-no in my book. Very disrespectful. The same would apply to both areas of magic.

That pleases me, mainly form the point of view that it is after all my only true heritage and such I am a bit over protective of it.

I am distrusting in nature when it comes to this, but then again I am quite the Xenophobe in life in general so nothing strange there really :P


A pet hate of mine too, actually, even though some of my closest friends practise along those lines. I just can't justify how different practises can be brought in in such a fashion that is not only never fully understood, it is really an insult to those peoples and cultures they abuse, due to that lack of understanding. Also, since it isn't of my heritage, I just don't feel comfortable with it.

I respect that, I would go as to far as for me personally not only would I not feel comfortable with it, it is simply not mine to alter.



Yes, she is at the threshold. I tend to see double meanings in remarks and I love to point them out, along with seeing the funny side :D

Don’t all women do that? :p at least I have met, always thinking you mean the worst of the possible meanings :p

[Brynhild]

That you wont need to worry about, I only have a problem with detecting sarcasm in text, not with the language it self.

Not for me, since it's second nature.


I have you know I was the best at my school in english. Not at spelling obviously but at my understanding of it. Just don't speak slang :P

Oh my, I could easily throw in a few and confusion would reign supreme! :D


Though then again, I am quite found of having semi romantic views of my forefathers, after all they are heroes, they are intended to inspire. I often question the validity of trying to make historical figures seem more human… as it defeats the point of romanticising about them.

I would be an incurable romantic in this instance, as I always seek inspiration from my forebears and heroes.


Heroes in Germanic myths never died, they retreated from the world only to await the final battle. To demystify them I think is quite dangerous. From a role-model perspective.

It is as children need to believe when they are young that their father is a hero, that he can do anything, that he is the king where he works. Anything else might cause the child to feel lesser about his family and in turn lesser about him self, and do we really want children to grow up like that?

Children have a hard enough time growing up in this day and age. I hate it when people attempt to take away that ideal from them :mad:


I did not intend for this to force you to confess any past mistakes not at all.

You didn't. I'm at that point in my life where I'm comfortable about my past deeds, irrespective of whether it's right or wrong.


Of course it does, I respect my forefathers enough to use their views as guidelines. Pluss of course common machoness :p

And I respect that notion. I'm just not able to share that particular view, as I said before, without sounding like a hypocrite. :)


No not at all I was merely being sarcastic, you need not worry about that ;)

Works for me!

:) :D


That pleases me, mainly form the point of view that it is after all my only true heritage and such I am a bit over protective of it.

I am empathetic for you in this regard. Holding on to our ancient traditions is more important than ever. Carrying dual traditions like I do may seem confusing but that's how I know it to be.


I am distrusting in nature when it comes to this, but then again I am quite the Xenophobe in life in general so nothing strange there really :P

Australia was already a multicultural nation when it was settled, but at least it was CeltoGermanic in ideology and tradition. I hate seeing the influx of other such foreigners who bring trouble with them wherever they go, along with their beliefs that oppose my own.


I respect that, I would go as to far as for me personally not only would I not feel comfortable with it, it is simply not mine to alter.

Nor would it be mine. Good call.


Don’t all women do that? :p at least I have met, always thinking you mean the worst of the possible meanings :p

Naturally! ;)