Tatars

[Majar]

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8144/49591996.jpghttp://img689.imageshack.us/img689/6963/56712911.jpg
Elina Mitina-Shigabutdinova (Tatarstan)

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/2130/03a7517f4e4e7l.jpg
Denis Akhmedzyanov (Khabarovsk)

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/598/tatartuy.jpg
Rustem Geniyattulin and Railya Mukmenova (Kyzyl-Yalan)

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/2439/bilzgpd.jpg
Ethnic Tatars in Brussels, Belgium

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/6861/anthrd.jpg
Anthropology study

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Tatars_in_Kazan_1885_2.jpg
Kazan, 1885

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3213/crewsfig5b.jpg
A lithograph representing the Tatars of Kazan. F. K. Pauli, Description ethnographique des peuples de la Russe (St. Petersburg, 1862)

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/1049/abdrahimhasan.jpg
On March 5, 1940, infantry corporal Hasan Abdrahim was wounded in his arm, shoulder and neck in battle against the Red Army at Säkkijärvi, Niemenlautta. He died later the same day. He had been presented a Freedom Medal (Vapaudenmitali) 2nd class and his family received a posthumous Freedom Cross (Vapaudenristi) 4th class.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2879/43371b.jpg
Aisha Shvets (Ukraine)

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/9241/mdportret.jpg
Chulpan Khamatova (Kazan)

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/9440/bulatgilvanov.jpg
Bulat Gilvanov (Tatarstan)

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7384/maratizmailov.jpg
Marat Nailevich Izmailov (Moscow)

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/4226/nureyevyoung.jpg
Rudolf Khametovich Nureyev (Irkutsk)

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9152/f553fcf8299870b79e98d4b.jpg
Charles Bronson (aka Karolis Bučinskis, Lipka Tatar)

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8883/giray.jpg
Devlet Giray, Khan of Crimean Khaganate

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/8683/0xg9bqlzm8kk.jpg
:tongue

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/8281/zulya.jpg
Zulya Kamalova (Sarapul, Udmurtia)

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/2696/imgkat19.jpg
Diana Boldyerva (Nizhnekamsk)

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7558/7974101189095354alsu4ne.jpg
Alsou Ralifovna Abramova (Bugulma, Tatarstan)

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/3299/6030113.jpg

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6075/0ba901490dd041e2a387449.jpg

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/6501/98a97022e19842b39e23709.jpg
Crimean Tatars

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6770/sabantuyhairfrombehindl.jpg
Long hair contest from Sabantuy (Idel-Ural festival of Ural-Altaic peoples)

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7703/26041.jpg
Tatar babe from Odessa

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/162/dsc0780.jpg
Marat Safin (Moscow)

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/474/safina1.jpg
Dinara Safina (Moscow)

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/4692/oth1lite52091470327.jpg
Nikolai Khabibulin (Yekaterinburg)

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/200/gulnaraabbasova2.jpg
Gulnara Abbasova (Crimea)

[poiuytrewq0987]

Today's Tatars are heavily mixed. The Tatars in Tatarstan have heavily mixed with Russians similar to how Indians in the United States have heavily mixed with Anglos. Crimean Tatars are also mixed except this time they are largely mixed with Turkish blood, remnants from the Ottoman era. The only pure Tatars you can conceivably find are most likely in Dagestan or Chechnya where large populations of Avars and other remnants of the Golden Horde still live.

[Daos]

http://i079.radikal.ru/0904/a3/0832e067cb40.jpg

http://s58.radikal.ru/i161/0904/16/ecc3687f4367.jpg

http://i033.radikal.ru/0904/91/8bb3cf75ed2c.jpg

http://s40.radikal.ru/i090/0904/22/c9b068e3a786.jpg

http://s54.radikal.ru/i145/0904/c7/fcde16033048.jpg

[Tabiti]

The Europeid Tatars are just Volga Bulgarians. There is no such thing as "Tatar" today, since that what reached Europe under the name "Tatar" with the Golden horde were just various tribes of Mongolian, Altaic and even Caucasian origin. The original Tatars lived in Mongolia, but Chengiz Khan actually killed many of them.
There were quite many attempts to "Tatarize" Volga Bulgarians in Solviet times, including deportations, violence and the creation of the so called Tatarstan.

[Cail]

Yep, Kazan Tatars are just Kypchakized Volga Bulgars. Original Bulgars were Turkic too though, but ethnically highly mixed with Finno-Ugrians, Iranians and (later) Slavs, hence their pred.Euro phens.

[Osweo]

The only pure Tatars you can conceivably find are most likely in Dagestan or Chechnya where large populations of Avars and other remnants of the Golden Horde still live.
'Avars' in Dagestan have no relation with the Avars and Pseudo-Avars of ancient times. They are simply another Lezgian group of Caucasians, owing little if anything to the Turkic Stepnyaki. THey call themselves summat like Maarla, I dimly recall...

The Europeid Tatars are just Volga Bulgarians.
:ohwell:

Yep, Kazan Tatars are just Kypchakized Volga Bulgars.
No... The Volga Bulgars are still there, they were just shoved aside and became the Chuvash. I'd say that the Tatars, while having a lot of Bulgar in them, ARE more Kypchak than you give them credit for. I'd also say that there's as much Volga-Finn in them as Bulgar, as well as ancient Magyar and more recent Slavonic input.

Oh, and I'm sure a few more photos of the charming Chulpan wouldn't go amiss.... ;)
http://ruskino.ru/artist/45/photo/1182.jpg
http://ruskino.ru/film/167/kadr/9286.jpg
http://ruskino.ru/film/167/kadr/9285.jpg
http://img.dni.ru/binaries/v2_articlepic/233233.jpg
http://www.ural.ru/gallery/news/stars/actor_rus/chulpan_hamatova.jpg
http://ruskino.ru/film/48/kadr/11369.jpg
http://www.shoppingood.ru/img/donory/donor_chulpan.jpg
http://img.nr2.ru/pict/arts1/12/46/124659.jpg
http://i053.radikal.ru/0903/f7/1ffd38211d2b.jpg
http://www.jpgs.ru/jpgs/chulpan_hamatova/119628034413.jpg
http://www.jpgs.ru/jpgs/chulpan_hamatova/11962802101.jpg

And she's a good girl too:

Чулпан Хаматова призналась, что очень консервативно относится к воспитанию своих двух маленьких дочерей.

Актриса запрещает 4-летней Арише и 3-летней Алине смотреть телевизор, поскольку считает, что дети должны воспитываться исключительно на книгах.

- Единственное исключение сделала для мультика «Русалочка», - рассказала актриса. - Это добрая сказка.
Chulpan confesses to being very conservative in bringing up her two young daughters.

The actress doesn't allow Arisha (4) and Alina (3) to watch telly, reckoning that books are far better for bringing up kids.

She made only one exception - the animated feature 'The Mermaid' - "It's a nice fairy tale," she said. :thumb001:

[Pallantides]

....

[StonyArabia]

The Crimean Tatars are not mixed with Anatolian Turks. Instead they are mixed with the local Greek population and North Caucasians like the Circassian and related peoples. Since the Crimean Khanate extend into the Northern Caucasus. In general the Crimean Tatars have strongly kept their Mongolic features despite the fact they assimilated a lot of Greeks and Northern Caucasians. Some can look fully Asiatic, others are in between and some can look totally European.

Comparing Tatars to the mixed Indians in America is wrong on so many levels. Since Russian did not intermix heavily with the Tatars, but there is indeed some Russian blood in the modern Tatars, but in the whole scheme of things it's minor at least in Kazan is true.

Siberian and Chinese Tatars are always 100% Mongoloid. However they are all united by the Islamic faith, Turkic culture and langauge. Also Tatars in general are the most secular Muslims you find, and are very easy to assimilate into the local dominant culture.

As for Dagestan it's region with many ethinc group, there is no single ethnic group called Dagestani. The ethnic groups are composed of Caucasian, Turkic, Iranic stocks. Also the name means Land of Mountains in Persian. The ethnic groups are Tashkurs, Laz, Avars those form the Caucasian bulk, the Nogai are Turkic ethnic group in Dagestan are fully Mongoloid and they trace their ancestry to the Golden Horde. The Kumyk another Turkic ethnic group but look Caucasoid and said to descent from the Khazars, the have R1a1 more so than any of the Caucasian ethnic groups who tend to have J1. The Iranic group is composed of Talysh, Kurds and Persians as well Tati Jews. So Dagestan has nothing to do with the Tatars.

From what I know the Tatars are paternal, and often accept the child of a mixed union into the Tatar group, similar to Anatolian Turks, as long the father is a Tatar than so is the child. This clearly shows Islamic influence upon them.

Tatar was also the name for all Muslims in Russia it did not matter what racial or ethnic stock they came from. Similar to how Moor was used in the West.

[Austrvegr]

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8883/giray.jpg
Devlet Giray, Khan of Crimean Khaganate


The inscription says his name is Sahib Giray. There were 2 Crimean khans of the name (in 1532-1551 and 1771-1775).

[StonyArabia]

The inscription says his name is Sahib Giray. There were 2 Crimean khans of the name (in 1532-1551 and 1771-1775).

The Giray were descendants of Gengis Khan or claimed to be so.

[Gunslinger]

Graduates of National Tatar gymnasium


http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5994/1639src.jpg

http://img573.imageshack.us/img573/3673/16245src.jpg

[Amapola]

'Avars' in Dagestan have no relation with the Avars and Pseudo-Avars of ancient times. They are simply another Lezgian group of Caucasians, owing little if anything to the Turkic Stepnyaki. THey call themselves summat like Maarla, I dimly recall...

:ohwell:

No... The Volga Bulgars are still there, they were just shoved aside and became the Chuvash. I'd say that the Tatars, while having a lot of Bulgar in them, ARE more Kypchak than you give them credit for. I'd also say that there's as much Volga-Finn in them as Bulgar, as well as ancient Magyar and more recent Slavonic input.

Oh, and I'm sure a few more photos of the charming Chulpan wouldn't go amiss.... ;)
http://ruskino.ru/artist/45/photo/1182.jpg
http://ruskino.ru/film/167/kadr/9286.jpg
http://ruskino.ru/film/167/kadr/9285.jpg
http://img.dni.ru/binaries/v2_articlepic/233233.jpg
http://www.ural.ru/gallery/news/stars/actor_rus/chulpan_hamatova.jpg
http://ruskino.ru/film/48/kadr/11369.jpg
http://www.shoppingood.ru/img/donory/donor_chulpan.jpg
http://img.nr2.ru/pict/arts1/12/46/124659.jpg
http://i053.radikal.ru/0903/f7/1ffd38211d2b.jpg
http://www.jpgs.ru/jpgs/chulpan_hamatova/119628034413.jpg
http://www.jpgs.ru/jpgs/chulpan_hamatova/11962802101.jpg

And she's a good girl too:

Chulpan confesses to being very conservative in bringing up her two young daughters.

The actress doesn't allow Arisha (4) and Alina (3) to watch telly, reckoning that books are far better for bringing up kids.

She made only one exception - the animated feature 'The Mermaid' - "It's a nice fairy tale," she said. :thumb001:

she0s ugly.

[Olika]

Albina Safarova
http://cs5339.vkontakte.ru/u35013387/127012288/y_1cd40d96.jpg
keumbKpBPCU

http://content.foto.mail.ru/mail/the_lord1991/_answers/i-15.jpg
http://f4.foto.rambler.ru/preview/r/668x453/4ce5d538-b6fe-7da5-e548-78244e6c36df/%D0%90%D0%BB%D1%81%D1%83.jpg
http://www.chelny.info/foto/02900/02988.jpg
http://journalisti.ru/img/kabaeva.jpg
http://www.misstatarstan.ru/images/mt/golosovanie_next/09.JPG
http://www.misstatarstan.ru/images/mt/golosovanie_next/15.JPG
http://cs9753.vkontakte.ru/u2014296/114174601/x_afbd3794.jpg
http://www.missrussia.ru/upload/iblock/2ce/2ce4b430a96f853f26675f2712f3d666.jpg
http://cs10597.vkontakte.ru/u92467934/138559339/y_96399869.jpg
http://cs9730.vkontakte.ru/u140216755/138559339/y_892c5b72.jpg

[Redar14]

Majority Tatars are white (they have big iranian, slavic and uralic admixture) but a lot of them have mongoloid origin. Basically Tatars have much more european appearance than modern Iranian nations.

[Redar14]

http://f4.foto.rambler.ru/preview/r/668x453/4ce5d538-b6fe-7da5-e548-78244e6c36df/%D0%90%D0%BB%D1%81%D1%83.jpg
http://www.chelny.info/foto/02900/02988.jpg
http://journalisti.ru/img/kabaeva.jpg

http://www.misstatarstan.ru/images/mt/golosovanie_next/15.JPG



This is effect of jasyr. Girls have typical ugro-finnic faces.

[Hurrem sultana]

lol what is this Albina Safarova doing?

[Olika]

lol what is this Albina Safarova doing?
lol reads rap

[Hurrem sultana]

lol reads rap

btw funny how she wears the islamic moon/star over breasts..what a combination :rolleyes:

[Redar14]

Emil Sayfutdinov:

http://www.sebafoto.com/galleries/zuzel07/ekstraliga/12polonia-sparta/02.jpg
http://www.sebafoto.com/galleries/zuzel06/ekstraliga/13atlas-polonia/09.jpg

[Redar14]

Are Bashkirs and Chuvash similar to Tatars?

[StonyArabia]

Are Bashkirs and Chuvash similar to Tatars?

Yes and No. The Bashkirs are Kipchak Turks and are more Mongoloid than the Tatars and are Sunni Muslims. Well the Chuvash are Oghur Turks and are Christian and often look Caucasoid and not much different from their neighbours but have noticeable Turkic admixture and follow Christianity.

[Hurrem sultana]

she0s ugly.


she reminds me of gwyneth paltrow,just a brunette version

[Osweo]

Yes and No. The Bashkirs are Kipchak Turks and are more Mongoloid than the Tatars and are Sunni Muslims. Well the Chuvash are Oghur Turks and are Christian and often look Caucasoid and not much different from their neighbours but have noticeable Turkic admixture and follow Christianity.
There's a lot of Ugric in the Bashkirs, too. I read a long while ago that this is evident in several clan names there, as well as their physical appearance.

As for the Chuvash, there's a large part of their stock absorbed into the Tatars, and these people have obviously been living the longest of all among the Mordvin and Mari natives of the region.

[Olika]

http://cs11168.vkontakte.ru/u22602520/-6/z_5f2613b2.jpg
http://cs5394.vkontakte.ru/u16917542/-6/z_55f1ce8a.jpg
http://cs5253.vkontakte.ru/u59162819/128636603/y_5a623054.jpg
http://cs9497.vkontakte.ru/u61803531/125418617/y_12e8dedf.jpg

[sevruk]

http://s010.radikal.ru/i312/1208/24/925f95cd2764.jpg
http://www.balto-slavica.com/forum/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=4883
http://www.balto-slavica.com/forum/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=4884
http://www.balto-slavica.com/forum/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=4885
http://www.balto-slavica.com/forum/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=4886
http://www.balto-slavica.com/forum/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=4888
http://www.balto-slavica.com/forum/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=4887

[Mordid]

funny they all look slavic, tatarised slavs?

[sevruk]

http://www.imageup.ru/img211/thumb/xazieva-ehlvira997965.jpg
http://www.imageup.ru/img211/thumb/32salyaxova-ehlina997945.jpg
http://www.imageup.ru/img211/thumb/28gajjfullina-sabina997940.jpg
http://www.imageup.ru/img211/thumb/27rassadkina-regina997939.jpg
http://www.imageup.ru/img211/thumb/16gajjnullina997924.jpg
http://www.imageup.ru/img211/thumb/8maxmutova997907.jpg
http://www.imageup.ru/img259/990197/ts-v7.jpg
http://s018.radikal.ru/i514/1202/90/737123ca193f.jpg
http://s017.radikal.ru/i433/1202/de/af7dbe25d5fa.jpg

[Mordid]

Ubermensch looking Tatars are asslimated Slavs, obviously.

[sevruk]

funny they all look slavic, tatarised slavs?
they are similar to the Slavs, because part originate from Imenkovo culture, which was Slavic or Baltic
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D 1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1 %82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0

[sevruk]

http://s019.radikal.ru/i632/1203/c5/58527b51094b.jpg
http://s019.radikal.ru/i623/1203/f9/9eaed4137a53.jpg
http://s44.radikal.ru/i104/1203/34/3c08b918e91b.jpg
http://s019.radikal.ru/i617/1203/80/ce9c0343dde3.jpg
http://s019.radikal.ru/i629/1203/6e/b7094d5f35d5.jpg
http://s019.radikal.ru/i626/1203/48/29c43b730947.jpg
http://s019.radikal.ru/i630/1203/4e/698193bcacca.jpg
http://s019.radikal.ru/i627/1203/33/cfc0fa575534.jpg
http://mishar.ucoz.ru/_nw/14/70712909.jpg
http://mishar.ucoz.ru/_nw/14/74703537.jpg

[sevruk]

http://i.pixs.ru/storage/2/7/6/m22jpg_2255538_2109276.jpg
http://i.pixs.ru/storage/2/7/5/m21jpg_3474729_2109275.jpg
http://i.pixs.ru/storage/2/7/3/m19jpg_8859018_2109273.jpg
http://i.pixs.ru/storage/2/7/1/m17jpg_5348054_2109271.jpg
http://i.pixs.ru/storage/2/6/9/m16jpg_6812511_2109269.jpg
http://i013.radikal.ru/1108/d3/5568679cfcb3.jpg
http://i.pixs.ru/storage/5/4/5/2e442716fb_9815006_1459545.jpg
http://i.pixs.ru/storage/5/4/7/830862025j_5592497_1459547.jpg
http://i.pixs.ru/storage/5/5/8/garaevjpg_3673435_1459558.jpg
http://i4.pixs.ru/storage/5/6/0/haliullinj_6995302_1459560.jpg
http://i4.pixs.ru/storage/5/8/9/RRRSSSRRRR_6320152_1459589.jpg
http://i.pixs.ru/storage/5/8/8/RSSRSRRRRR_1688752_1459588.jpg
http://i4.pixs.ru/storage/5/7/4/shamrealjp_4826998_1459574.jpg

[sevruk]

http://s54.radikal.ru/i143/1008/55/9122640c81b0.jpg
http://s46.radikal.ru/i113/1008/c6/b99042c83551.jpg
http://i073.radikal.ru/1008/1f/e55bca6d5cca.jpg
http://i072.radikal.ru/1008/cf/f9043c7cbc45.jpg
http://s46.radikal.ru/i111/1008/04/852c2f355c3b.jpg
http://s56.radikal.ru/i152/1008/9b/1145374366a7.jpg
http://s42.radikal.ru/i096/1008/42/57c1b9e55031.jpg

[sevruk]

http://s02.radikal.ru/i175/1008/81/be43cfcd6cd2.jpg
http://s004.radikal.ru/i207/1008/79/0d45ab62dd16.jpg
http://i076.radikal.ru/1008/a4/d9ca5d330b0e.jpg
http://s003.radikal.ru/i202/1008/77/6504b0beb5d7.jpg
http://s55.radikal.ru/i148/1008/08/081519cc7b12.jpg
http://s39.radikal.ru/i084/1008/af/f4e3765615b7.jpg
http://s41.radikal.ru/i094/1008/da/d5592ecb9344.jpg
http://s002.radikal.ru/i198/1006/4d/9efa3e1adde5.jpg
http://s53.radikal.ru/i139/1006/24/32fdafb4035f.jpg
http://s003.radikal.ru/i201/1006/05/75d175ae80d4.jpg

[sevruk]

http://s003.radikal.ru/i203/1007/14/8eaeb3005498.jpg
http://s60.radikal.ru/i170/1003/d2/510c4168b4ff.jpg
http://s06.radikal.ru/i179/1007/0c/c33f3deaa34d.jpg
http://s43.radikal.ru/i100/1007/eb/ddfdd51c1dcc.jpg
http://i076.radikal.ru/1007/b8/2914402984dd.jpg
http://s39.radikal.ru/i084/1007/a1/5709978be0dc.jpg
http://s60.radikal.ru/i168/1007/c4/6d48ce8b385a.jpg

[sevruk]

The approximate anthropological composition of the Tatars:

North-Caucasoid type: 27.5%

Mediterranean type (Pontic): 33.5%

Sub-lapponoid type: 24.5%

Mongoloid type(Turanid): 14.5%

[Onur]

funny they all look slavic, tatarised slavs?

Ubermensch looking Tatars are asslimated Slavs, obviously.
You probably think like that because of the slavicized tatars. Most likely there are tatarized slavs but the number of slavicized tatars are definitely higher than them.

[evon]

Its not right to link language and genetics like many in this thread do, Turkic language ties does not equal Turkic genetic ties, Tatars from Tartarstan have mostly local regional ancestry, with minor ancestry in the far east, this far eastern component has not been identified with a language group, it can belong to any of the various peoples in the far east, historical and present ones.

That is also the explanation for why they look like most people from the same region..

[Pecheneg]

Its not right to link language and genetics like many in this thread do, Turkic language ties does not equal Turkic genetic ties, Tatars from Tartarstan have mostly local regional ancestry, with minor ancestry in the far east, this far eastern component has not been identified with a language group, it can belong to any of the various peoples in the far east, historical and present ones.

That is also the explanation for why they look like most people from the same region..
:picard1:
Idil/Volga Bulgars (ancestors of the Kazan Tatars) of medieval were not Mongoloid either, besides Kypchaks, Pechenegs, Bulgars, Khazars and other Turkic peoples of region were always described as caucasoid.
Turkic =/= Mongoloid

[evon]

:picard1:
Idil/Volga Bulgars (ancestors of the Kazan Tatars) of medieval were not Mongoloid either, besides Kypchaks, Pechenegs, Bulgars, Khazars and other Turkic peoples of region were always described as caucasoid.
Turkic =/= Mongoloid

Its assumed as much by many, but its not proven scientific, i have looked for genetic ties between various Turkic speaking peoples using 23andme, Dodecad and Eurogenes, so far there dosnt seem to be much of a connection, other then a regional one that is expected.

It seems that the case might be much more complicated then this, it might be numerous migrations over a long period of time, east-west/north-south, but with little connection tied to any specific language group, then on top of this its likely language shifts in various regions, usually from local elite dominance or a merger of cultures, these cultures might also in turn have shifted or merged with other cultures on their way into the region which they are located today, thus Tartars in Tartarstan have little DNA in common with Turkish, or Uzbeks who are both also Turkic speakers, which in turn have little in common with each other again. In short, it seems very complex, and the idea of a Turan brotherhood based on DNA seems highly unlikely, its merely a linguistic bond..

[Pecheneg]

In short, it seems very complex, and the idea of a Turan brotherhood based on DNA seems highly unlikely, its merely a linguistic bond..

I'm more likely to support the cooperation between Turkic speaking countries/nations instead of great Turan idea and IMO this is much more plausible idea than EU.

Seriously, is there any linguistic, cultural or genetic relationship between Finland & Greece? or Estonia & Portugal? etc.. here is map of EU
http://i48.tinypic.com/2mcgevk.jpg

at least there are cultural, linguistic, historical and even genetic (to some degree) relationships between Turkic nations.

[evon]

I'm more likely to support the cooperation between Turkic speaking countries/nations instead of great Turan idea and IMO this is much more plausible idea than EU.

Seriously, is there any linguistic, cultural or genetic relationship between Finland & Greece? or Estonia & Portugal? etc.. here is map of EU
http://i48.tinypic.com/2mcgevk.jpg

at least there are cultural, linguistic, historical and even genetic (to some degree) relationships between Turkic nations.

EU is a regional union, not a genetic or cultural one :picard1:

Which genetic tie do you speak of, please show me the proof for such a statement? i was actually hoping it would be found when i started looking for it as it would be cool and a simple explanation to a eurasian puzzle, but its looking increasingly unlikely...

[Pecheneg]

EU is a regional union, not a genetic or cultural one :picard1:
The Turan through Turanist's eyes is not a genetic or cultural union either. I'm not a Turanist btw, but i support the developing cooperation betwen Turkic speaking countries as i said earlier.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Plus the emotional ties..like love..care ,brotherhood after 1000 or more years..
Genetic tie(race) is a more European concept
Our heritage is not materialistic ,it's cultural historical and linguistic heritage.
We are not europeans and we don't need such a bound.

[Han Cholo]

http://www.biyokulule.com/sawiro/sawirada_waaweyn/Tatar%20Muslims2.jpg

http://www.justrussia.ru/e107_images/custom/volga_kazan_46.jpg

http://s4.images.drive2.ru/user.blog.photos/1840/000/000/013/b08/88cb781a980acc70-original.jpg

http://gdb.rferl.org/1545E855-88A0-4E7E-85A3-06AF8D218280_mw800_s.jpg

http://www.ogoniok.com/common/archive/2002/4758-2/91-36-39/91-37-2b.jpg

http://www.digitaljournal.com/img/8/3/2/4/3/8/i/5/2/2/p-large/ASAN2.jpg

http://kazantimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/yunusov.jpg

http://www.eng.kavkaz-uzel.ru/system/attachments/0000/2040/1_view.jpg?1343117964

http://gokazan.com/upload/wysiwyg/minnikhanov_2flaga.jpg

http://www.filadelfia.ru/assets/galleries/210/chel_1_.jpg

In my opinion, they don't look that Slavic. They do look a bit different from Russians, although you can find a few that look very Slavic. The funny thing is that most don't particularly Mongoloid either. I guess they're mostly a mix of ancient Iranian remnants and Uralids, and something West or Central Asian.

[Hurrem sultana]

Are all tatars muslim?

[evon]

Are all tatars muslim?

No, Chuvash are Christian "Tatars", some are also likely belonging to various other belifs depending on where in the world they have lived the last hundred years, Tatars are also found in china, central asia ect...

[StonyArabia]

Are all tatars muslim?

The majority is Muslim, but a small minority are Orthodox. The Chuvash are all Christians though.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Also there is a small group of Karaim Judaist Tatars in Lithuania and Ukraina.

zPU6Z9NsGNU
That's one single dialect with SUBJECT -VERB -OBJECT in all Turk dialects.In theory ,sentence structure is changed in time when they translate verses of Torah..
BTW Karaimisim is a different sect than other Judaism they refuse Talmud (like Hadiths of Judaism )only believe in Torah their ceremonies they have a different meeting place not sinegog ,they don't get married with regular jews ,they still keep some of animistic faiths ,tree cult ,make helva for dead loved ones,their cemeteri Baltatiymez is the oldest cemetary in Europe and trees are sacred .even the path to cemetary is one way,

[Onur]

Are all tatars muslim?
~90% are muslim but there are some christian Volga Tatars (Bulgars) and Chuvash Tatars today as well as small number of Tatars of Poland, Lithuania who believes in Judaism.

Actually, the number of christian Tatars were much more than today`s but they have been assimilated and lost their Tatar identity especially since the last two century. Millions of them became Russians, some became Ukrainians and about 80.000 of christian Tatars (Urums) migrated to Greece between 1920-1950.

[Anatolian Eagle]

No, Chuvash are Christian "Tatars", some are also likely belonging to various other belifs depending on where in the world they have lived the last hundred years, Tatars are also found in china, central asia ect...

The Chuvash aren't Tatars. They're releated to Volga Tatars most but they aren't same people. Chuvash language also belong to different branch of Turkic languages (Oghur branch) than Tatar which belongs to Kypchak branch.

[evon]

The Chuvash aren't Tatars. They're releated to Volga Tatars most but they aren't same people. Chuvash language also belong to different branch of Turkic languages (Oghur branch) than Tatar which belongs to Kypchak branch.

Thats why i used the "", because they are very closely related in terms of Genetics from what ive seen...they also seem to intermarry allot..

[Onur]

The Chuvash aren't Tatars. They're releated to Volga Tatars most but they aren't same people. Chuvash language also belong to different branch of Turkic languages (Oghur branch) than Tatar which belongs to Kypchak branch.
Well, you are right but since Russians started to call all these people as "Tatars" since Bolshevik revolution, so we call them like that too. Actually i shouldn't have called all these people as Tatars like the communists did. It was my bad.

Chuvash people are obviously mixed with Tatars too but in fact they are a different Turkic group. Chuvash are more likely related with Bulgars.


Thats why i used the "", because they are very closely related in terms of Genetics from what ive seen...they also seem to intermarry allot..
Yes, they intermarried for centuries because their language and culture is so close to each other. It`s like Austrians and Germans.

Same thing happened in Turkey too. A lot of Tatars migrated to Anatolia and Balkans and they quickly integrated among Turkish society for the same reason.

[korkolola]

They're Turkic, but are they Tatars? I don't think so.



Also there is a small group of Karaim Judaist Tatars in Lithuania and Ukraina.

zPU6Z9NsGNU
That's one single dialect with SUBJECT -VERB -OBJECT in all Turk dialects.In theory ,sentence structure is changed in time when they translate verses of Torah..
BTW Karaimisim is a different sect than other Judaism they refuse Talmud (like Hadiths of Judaism )only believe in Torah their ceremonies they have a different meeting place not sinegog ,they don't get married with regular jews ,they still keep some of animistic faiths ,tree cult ,make helva for dead loved ones,their cemeteri Baltatiymez is the oldest cemetary in Europe and trees are sacred .even the path to cemetary is one way,

[Onur]

They're Turkic, but are they Tatars? I don't think so.
Maybe they are not.

Actually Russians created this confusion by calling all the different type of Turkic peoples as Tatars! They were surely intermarrying but there was differences between them, regardless of these differences, Russians kept calling all of them as Tatars for more than a century.

Karaims are descendants of Khazars who believed in Judaism. This is 100% certain. But their Turkic dialect is similar to Tatar muslims.

[Pecheneg]

They're Turkic, but are they Tatars? I don't think so.

Their language is very close to Crimean Tatar which is also a Kypchak Turkic language. Karaims are descendants of Khazar or perhaps Kypchak tribes who converted Karaism/Judaism.

[Sultan Suleiman]

Aurora's baby pic :D

http://i073.radikal.ru/1008/1f/e55bca6d5cca.jpg

[Pecheneg]

Maybe they are not.

Actually Russians created this confusion by calling all the different type of Turkic peoples as Tatars!

The Russians also used to call Azeris as Caucasus Tatars. :picard2:

[Onur]

Their language is very close to Crimean Tatar which is also a Kypchak Turkic language. Karaims are descendants of Khazar or perhaps Kypchak tribes who converted Karaism/Judaism.
They have ethnocentric traditions due to their judaism belief. They only get married with other Karaims. So we can say that they are descendants of Khazars.

Karaim history in Lithuania and Poland is so old. I think they have recorded history in these countries since 13-14th century. It`s quite possible that these people has been spread to eastern Europe after the Khazar empire was no more in 11th century.

Did you see this Turkic runic inscription from Romania before? This is from 10th century, written by Karaims;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Alsoszentmihaly_rovas_felirat_fenykep.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Als%C3%B3szentmih%C3%A1ly_inscription

http://books.google.com/books?id=TyK8azCqC34C&pg=PA170&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

[korkolola]

Our Tatar community is kinda great. Not only they had been living in Lithuania since the beginning of the XIVth century (they were great soldiers of Grand Duke Vytautas) and remained Tatar, they had also been respected in Lithuania ever since.


The first settlers tried to preserve their shamanistic religion and sought asylum amongst the non-Christian Lithuanians.[1] Towards the end of the 14th century, another wave of Tatars - this time, Muslims, were invited into the Grand Duchy by Vytautas the Great. These Tatars first settled in Lithuania proper around Vilnius, Trakai, Hrodna and Kaunas [1] and later spread to other parts of the Grand Duchy that later became part of Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars

Some examples on how local Tatars look like today (I am not sure on how mixed everyone of them are & not sure whether they are Lipka Tatar, or Tatars from Russia, who immigrated during Soviet times):

http://www.ipn.gov.pl/ftp/wystawy/upadek_imperium/content/foto/20/big/08.jpg

http://www.xxiamzius.lt/numeriai/2007/04/27/foto/Totoriai0995.jpg

http://www.alytausnaujienos.lt/images/alytaus%20naujienos/straipsniai/40-3-9.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/409589_10151993915145545_936579747_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/29040_1377453513607_2749426_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/393602_158273467606077_1390107826_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/529930_2504793957497_167843829_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/546190_2505069324381_876530226_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/485810_2505086444809_67826540_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/35622_1761184235419_8049349_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-ash2/187384_100001435262127_482113034_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/431733_10150562666646459_451734392_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/7529_133033103346_5335589_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/407943_177430685695606_2080659339_n.jpg

[bayar]

What's slavicised tatar? Some of them look Russian because they live near Russians. It would be mighty wierd if they looked like Nigerians. In the past Tatar and Russian marriages were very rare because of different religions, different tradtions, etc. Although many Tatars intermixed with Russians in the last 50 years, most of them consider themselves Russian. In other words, it is highly unlikely that a half Russian/ half Tatar person would even mention that he is half Tatar, let alone speak Tatar.

[Sophie]

"Turkified Slavs" doesn't sound right or make sense. Turks already had their identity long before the Slavs did.

[Azalea]

No, Chuvash are Christian "Tatars", some are also likely belonging to various other belifs depending on where in the world they have lived the last hundred years, Tatars are also found in china, central asia ect...

The Chuvashes are not Tatars. They are a separate (Turkic) ethnic group with a separate language.

But there are Christian Tatars though. The Keresans for example.

Also, I see people posting pictures of Tatars from Crimea & Kazan. People should understand that these are two different ethnic groups (although similar to a certain extent) and shouldn't lumped together. It's like lumping Kazakhs & Tatars together.

Oh, Ergenekon already wrote the same



Thats why i used the "", because they are very closely related in terms of Genetics from what ive seen...they also seem to intermarry allot..

Still, calling them ''Tatars'' is not right. You can't just give a ethnic group a different name because they happen to be similar to another group genetically :confused:. You don't call Georgians Abkazians, Cypriots Levantines, Kurds Iranians etc. etc. so why do it to Volgaic Turkic peoples?

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Eyüp'te Karay Mezarlıkları by Bahçesaray Kırım Türkleri Derneği

Interesting info but unfortunately in Turkish :http://www.kirimdernegi.org/istanbul/bahcesaray/yazi.asp?yazi=200807008

[Mordid]

"Turkified Slavs" doesn't sound right or make sense. Turks already had their identity long before the Slavs did.
Slavic looking Tatars are obviously asslimated Slavs. Is that hard to accept it?

[Mordid]

Polish tatar volleyball from South Poland:
http://i.wp.pl/a/f/jpeg/21053/mroz_agata_pap_550.jpeg
http://d.wiadomosci24.pl/g2/57/fc/de/96184_1241545647_8fe1_p.jpeg
http://d.naszemiasto.pl/k/r/fe/e4/4d1469c179594_o.jpg
http://re.pl//var/ifiles/1c/58/article_max_b8bec48504c610c5dab6916e2ab17494.jpg

R.I.P.

[Dengizik]

Slavic looking Tatars are obviously asslimated Slavs. Is that hard to accept it?

if it is not true, yes.

[Anatolian Eagle]

What's slavicised tatar? Some of them look Russian because they live near Russians. It would be mighty wierd if they looked like Nigerians. In the past Tatar and Russian marriages were very rare because of different religions, different tradtions, etc. Although many Tatars intermixed with Russians in the last 50 years, most of them consider themselves Russian. In other words, it is highly unlikely that a half Russian/ half Tatar person would even mention that he is half Tatar, let alone speak Tatar.

Irina Shayk is half Tatar and half Russian and she gladly spoke about his Tatar side when she visited Turkey, since many people she has came across thought she could be a Turk (according to her).

Tatar father + Russian mother. Result:

http://www.wallpaperhd.org/walls/2777/irina-shayk-tshirt_1280x1024.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-10tqvx19Pls/Tn4L_W1NdCI/AAAAAAAAChc/M0nmeKS9USc/s1600/Irina-Shayk-Wallpapers-2.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-a-I3-ZRsjS8/Tn4MB9E2DGI/AAAAAAAAChg/hOmMCUOjufc/s1600/Irina-Shayk-Wallpapers-3.jpg

God, she's hot :love:

[evon]

Well, you are right but since Russians started to call all these people as "Tatars" since Bolshevik revolution, so we call them like that too. Actually i shouldn't have called all these people as Tatars like the communists did. It was my bad.


There is allot of problems here with terms such as Tatar, the usage of the name Tatar in Europe comes from the Greek Tartarus, in thinking that these people (Mongol horde) was sent by the devil to punish Europe for its "neglect" of god.

There was also a wide range of peoples called Tatars in eastern asia, in what is now eastern Mongolia and into Russia, some of these peoples also lived on the western edge of the Mongolian empire and so was pushed westward by the mongol expansion, eventually many of them became part of the horde, the various peoples that was known to Russians as Kipchaks became part of this horde as it moved westward after being defeated in battle, others fled westward again and joined the Hungarian king ect in defending against the mongol horde, but was eventually defeated there too.

to make matters even more complicated, during the mongol empire various peoples migrated during the pax mongolica...

I think its fair to say that terms such as Kipchak, Tatar, Mongol in relations to north eurasia is umbrella terms that cover a wide range of historical populations and have done so for a long time, so it does not seem correct to lump them into one people today, although iknow some would like to do that for political reasons.

We see the same problem with Arabs, Turks, Tatars and Moors in south Eurasia, both in Arabic and European sources, that often intermingle people into umbrella terms, likely out of pure ignorance, or for various political reasons.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

I think its fair to say that terms such as Kipchak, Tatar, Mongol in relations to north eurasia is umbrella terms that cover a wide range of historical populations and have done so for a long time, so it does not seem correct to lump them into one people today, although iknow some would like to do that for political reasons.

We see the same problem with Arabs, Turks, Tatars and Moors in south Eurasia, both in Arabic and European sources, that often intermingle people into umbrella terms, likely out of pure ignorance, or for various political reasons.

And I see it's again your European habit of over-classifiying things ,tag label tag label again till you can't see the big picture behind the tag cloud in your minds,dismembering the the whole body to tiny parts ...

you guys are not good with dealing chaos,want to live as homogenious societies..
we lived multucultural -multiracial since our Siberian days..

you don't like diversity but still create lot's of artificial diversity on paper..must be a hard life huh?

We tend to unify ,we are big picture wholistic people..so is our culture..Don't expect us think like Europeans..

[Onur]

What's slavicised tatar?
You asked a question above here and then you answered yourself;


Some of them look Russian because they live near Russians.
many Tatars intermixed with Russians in the last 50 years, most of them consider themselves Russian. In other words, it is highly unlikely that a half Russian/ half Tatar person would even mention that he is half Tatar, let alone speak Tatar.
"Slavicised Tatars" are these people who consider themselves as Russians, Ukrainians etc.

There are millions of Russified Tatars in Russia and their assimilation began after 1860s during the mass Tatar exodus and intensified during communist era. Russians erased their identity by forcefully russifying them during communist era. They forbid their religious beliefs, educated them only in Russian language, changed their names with slavic ones like "-ov - eva - ova"...

[evon]

And I see it's again your European habit of over-classifiying things ,tag label tag label again till you can't see the big picture ,dismember the the whole body to tiny parts ...

you guys are not good with dealing chaos,want to live as homogenious societies..
we lived multucultural -multiracial since our Siberian days..

you don't like diversity but still create lot's of artificial diversity on paper..

We tend to unify ,we are big picture wholistic people..so is our culture..Don't expect us think like Europeans..

must be a hard life huh?

No, its also been ongoing in European societies (actually in most societies), terms such as Saami are in reality many different peoples that have been lumped into one over time, modern people often use the term Viking to talk about people from Scandinavia in the early middle ages, when the term Viking is actually a verb, mentioning a specific task, and this term should not be confused with say modern ethnic terms.

Ive noted that many scholars also have problems using terms even today, some scholars use therms such as Turkco-Mongol when talking about Tatars in Central Asia, which could be seen as correct by some, but is also a umbrella term.

The idea of unity between Turkic speaking peoples is a new idea, that belongs in the era of ethnic nationalism ect, so its not me who is dividing "unified" peoples, it is an idealistic idea that tried to simplify and unify so as to seem stronger then they are on a political level, i am merely trying to inform people that we are dealing with a much more complex layer of peoples then what most seem to be aware of.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

The idea of unity between Turkic speaking peoples is a new idea, that belongs in the era of ethnic nationalism ect, so its not me who is dividing "unified" peoples, it is an idealistic idea that tried to simplify and unify so as to seem stronger then they are on a political level, i am merely trying to inform people that we are dealing with a much more complex layer of peoples then what most seem to be aware of.

This comes from a Chinese person I talked in a forum:




I Know what you told me about the Orkhon inscriptions, the one just discovered in monglia. Just wondering why our emperor is talking about the brotherhood of each other, but your Bilge Qaghan Khan are talking how bad the chinese.

We Asians tend to think in a historical course .According to Chinese we are still Hsiung Nu people of this age.

[evon]

We Asians tend to think in a historical course .According to Chinese we are still Hsiung Nu people of this age.

I would be careful using any Chinese sources, its not what i would call a free society and they have a tendency towards extreme nationalism, often incorporating various people into their own national group, such as saying Chingiz khan was Chinese :rolleyes: among other peoples...

And to say "we Asians" is also a very huge umbrella term :thumb001:

[Anatolian Eagle]

This comes from a Chinese person I talked in a forum:



We Asians tend to think in a historical course .According to Chinese we are still Hsiung Nu people of this age.

This is pretty much proves they didn't keep the Great Wall of China up to today just for touristic purposes. :rolleyes:

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

And to say "we Asians" is also a very huge umbrella term :thumb001:

So is European ;)

@Ergenekon: lol

[Rastko]

They are beautiful.

[beaver]

No, its also been ongoing in European societies (actually in most societies)
Tatars are percived on the Russian field as "ours". In the Army Tatars always fight on the Russian side (against "churcas").

[evon]

Tatars are percived on the Russian field as "ours". In the Army Tatars always fight on the Russian side (against "churcas").

I am not sure what you mean with regards to what i wrote here? also what is Churcas?

[Pallantides]

also what is Churcas?

Ask nero, she is an expert Churka hunter.

[evon]

Ask nero, she is an expert Churka hunter.

:fponder:

[member]

Our Tatar community is kinda great. Not only they had been living in Lithuania since the beginning of the XIVth century (they were great soldiers of Grand Duke Vytautas) and remained Tatar, they had also been respected in Lithuania ever since.



Some examples on how local Tatars look like today (I am not sure on how mixed everyone of them are & not sure whether they are Lipka Tatar, or Tatars from Russia, who immigrated during Soviet times):



Not all of these Tatars are probably mainly of Lithuanian Tatar origin. I've read that a considerable number of people who claim to be Tatar are actually rather recent immigrants.

[beaver]

I am not sure what you mean with regards to what i wrote here?
At least I wrote about Tatars and how they are perceived (in the real life) by Russians

[evon]

At least I wrote about Tatars and how they are perceived (in the real life) by Russians

Ah i see, but i never said that Tatars are seen as outside of the Russian nationalism idea.

[sevruk]

what is Churcas?
it Churcas
http://www.palki.ru/messages/images_71777.jpg
http://srvimg01.slando.ru/images_slandoru/48296425_1_644x461_drova-berezovye-kolotyechurka-chelyabinsk_rev004.jpg
http://kz.all.biz/img/kz/catalog/103888.jpeg

[evon]

Brilliant :D

[beaver]

polish tatar volleyball from south poland:
Точно, русская рожа, я обратил внимание. Не комплексуйте по по-поводу русско - польских татар, самые лучшие роды Польши выводят себя из сарматов. Или я ошибаюсь?

[korkolola]

Not all of these Tatars are probably mainly of Lithuanian Tatar origin. I've read that a considerable number of people who claim to be Tatar are actually rather recent immigrants.

Where have you read this? Just curious. What you say might very well be true, couldn't see why it couldn't have gone the same path as it did with, say, Lithuanian Jewish community, which was heavily (probably - naturally) russified by Soviet immigrants.

[beaver]

Human master, давайте будем общаться, когда вы в россию подтянетесь. А то я всяких тут повидал в Сети.

[member]

korkolola, I don't remember. I remember once I wanted to post pics of Lith. Tatars, but read in some article that a lot of such people don't have old roots here, that's But yes, it's related to 20th c. By the way, there is a newspaper called Lietuvos Totoriai, at least one of this issues is uploaded online, perhaps you will find something there. (In any case, it;s a very good information source about Lithuanian Tatars and their history)

beaver, my Russian is ehmm.. could you rather write to me in English?

[Hurrem sultana]

I met a tatar in Sweden,he looked very balkanic,,they seem to be a nice people ,that tatar went to our bosnian mosque because he hates arabs :D

[Il Principe]

I am not sure what you mean with regards to what i wrote here?
He meant that Tatars are very Russianized, to the point that they side with the Russians in conflicts against Muslim wogs and other non-Russian ethnic groups. Race riots in the army, for example, tend to prove this. The Tatars, being an Eurasian people, have this bond with Russia mainly due to shared history and culture.

(I assume that he meant the Volga Tatars who live in Kazan when he wrote that post.)


also what is Churkas?
What we call "blattar" in Scandinavia. In the case of Russia, they usually hail from the Caucasus, but essentially have the same role that Middle-Eastern immigrants have over here.

[Hurrem sultana]

They might be russianized,but they seem to care about their islamic identity a lot

[Hurrem sultana]

Tatars are percived on the Russian field as "ours". In the Army Tatars always fight on the Russian side (against "churcas").

muslim russians:D

[Dengizik]

They might be russianized,but they seem to care about their islamic identity a lot

they are partly russianized but protect their turkic language, culture and religion.

[Hurrem sultana]

they are partly russianized but protect their turkic language, culture and religion.

yeah i know,i watched a documentary about tatars and they said how they are loyal towards Russia BUT their identity is islamic,without islam there are no tatars

[bayar]

Irina Shayk is half Tatar and half Russian and she gladly spoke about his Tatar side when she visited Turkey, since many people she has came across thought she could be a Turk (according to her).



It is probably because she doesn't look Russian at all, and she has Tatar surname. Of cource, there are half Tatars, especially living in Tatarstan, who can readily admit their Tatar ancestry, but most of them don't want to do anything with Tatar.

[sevruk]

It is probably because she doesn't look Russian at all, and she has Tatar surname. Of cource, there are half Tatars, especially living in Tatarstan, who can readily admit their Tatar ancestry, but most of them don't want to do anything with Tatar.

Bashkir from the U.S. of course know better :D

[Sophie]

Slavic looking Tatars are obviously asslimated Slavs. Is that hard to accept it?

The majority of Tatars don't look Slavic at all. The very insignificant minority that does is the result of recent Russian/Soviet assimilation policy.


For example, the famous Tatar singer Alsou just looks Turkic.

http://img.karaoke-lyrics.net/img/artists/30392/abramova-ralifovna-alsou-61150.jpg
http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/44267/Alsou.jpg

[evon]

For example, the famous Tatar singer Alsou just looks Turkic.



There is no Turkic look, Turkic is a language group :picard1:

[Sophie]

There is no Turkic look, Turkic is a language group :picard1:

Easy for you to say. If there is no "Turkic look" then there is also no "Germanic look" as that is also just a "language group". :rolleyes:

[evon]

Easy for you to say. If there is no "Turkic look" then there is also no "Germanic look" as that is also just a "language group". :rolleyes:

Thats right, there is no Germanic look either, people need to drop using language groups as proxy for biological ancestry!

[Il Principe]

just looks Turkic.
And exactly what does that mean?

"Turkic" is merely a language group, that is all. The original carries of Turkic speech were mongoloid people from Central Asia, who had very little in common with modern Turkey (which is a mixed-race nation).

It's about as useful as saying "he looks Indo-European".

[Sophie]

And exactly what does that mean?

"Turkic" is merely a language group, that is all. The original carries of Turkic speech were mongoloid people from Central Asia, who had very little in common with modern Turkey (which is a mixed-race nation).

It's about as useful as saying "he looks Indo-European".

Turkic is much more than just a language group. And the original carriers of "Turkic" were not fully Mongoloid btw. :p

There actually is a Turkic look, other Turks in this forum will agree with me that it's very distinguishable. It's the same as when you tell Slavs and Germanics apart because of the well known Slavic look.

[evon]

Turkic is much more than just a language group. And the original carriers of "Turkic" were not fully Mongoloid btw. :p

There actually is a Turkic look, other Turks in this forum will agree with me that it's very distinguishable. It's the same as when you tell Slavs and Germanics apart because of the well known Slavic look.

Nonsense, i am sorry but this is bullcrap, such ideas belong to the early 1900s and have been shown to not make much sense, its even more redundant then using phenotypes to determine genetic ancestry..

Turks in Turkey have little in common with Tatars, and both groups have again little in common with Uzbeks, or Siberian based peoples, you need to brush up on your information, stop dwelling in the past ages of Turanist ideas..

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Turkic is much more than just a language group. And the original carriers of "Turkic" were not fully Mongoloid btw. :p

There actually is a Turkic look, other Turks in this forum will agree with me that it's very distinguishable. It's the same as when you tell Slavs and Germanics apart because of the well known Slavic look.

eh, we have been telling this on every thread for months..
..so why bother?
..we know what we are ,it's enough ..

ofcourse an Swedish , a Russian a Norwegian know better than us :picard2::picard1::rolleyes:

[Il Principe]

Turkic is much more than just a language group.
No, it is only a language group. Apart from a related language and Islamic religion, the average Volga Tatar has nothing in common with Turkey and its people.


And the original carriers of "Turkic" were not fully Mongoloid btw. :p
They were originally mongoloid, but Central Asia being the racial melting-pot it is, they gradually became more Eurasian in appearance. I suppose this is the typical "Turkic look" (which is distributed amongst all Turkic-speaking nations except for Turkey), although it's quite independent of language. Which is what "Turkic" is, after all.


There actually is a Turkic look, other Turks in this forum will agree with me that it's very distinguishable.
There is no distinguishable look that everyone from Istanbul to Xinjiang shares in common. The only general rule is that the further East one goes, the stronger mongoloid traits.


It's the same as when you tell Slavs and Germanics apart because of the well known Slavic look.
Which is just a typical "East European" look, because I have also seen Romanians who look like that.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

May be it's time to stop this already..we talked all about these 100 times ..and not getting anywhere..repeatative nonsense

[Sophie]

Nonsense, i am sorry but this is bullcrap, such ideas belong to the early 1900s and have been shown to not make much sense, its even more redundant then using phenotypes to determine genetic ancestry..

Turks in Turkey have little in common with Tatars, and both groups have again little in common with Uzbeks, or Siberian based peoples, you need to brush up on your information, stop dwelling in the past ages of Turanist ideas..

This has nothing to do with Turanism though. It's more like when you say "Oh that person has a Southern European/Latin look" or the person has a "Slavic look", etc. I think if you spend more time learning about it, you will start realizing it too.

For example, Turkish singer Ebru Gundes has a strong Turkic look despite being just an "Anatolian" as you say.

http://www.peoples.ru/art/music/pop/ebru_gundes/gundes_5.jpg
http://www.biyografist.com/resimler/ebru-gundes-resimleri/ebru-gundes-resim-5.jpg

[Il Principe]

May be it's time to stop this already..we talked all about these 100 times
Indeed, it is like communicating with a wall.


repeatative nonsense
A fairly accurate description of your posts, and those of other deluded teenage internet-scientists who think all Turkic-speakers on the planet - from the beach wogs in Antalya to the mongoloid Siberian aboriginals - are a single racial unit and look the same.

[evon]

This has nothing to do with Turanism though. It's more like when you say "Oh that person has a Southern European/Latin look" or the person has a "Slavic look", etc. I think if you spend more time learning about it, you will start noticing it too.

For example, Turkish singer Ebru Gundes has the "Turkic look" despite being just an "Anatolian" as you say.


That is not an accurate science, its just personal selective observation, hardly good enough if you ask me.

Also, i never said that Turks dont have Far asian ancestry at all, that is another thing altogether, but that ancestry should not be labelled Turkic, which is only and exclusively a language group, as labelling it Turkic gives a false impression that all modern Turkic speaking populations share a common ancestry (Turanism), which is what i am telling you is not the case, the various people have a very distinct genetic build-up with no obvious genetic ties to each other, except what you would expect from a inter-regional relationship.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

it's not communication when it becomes a major troling topic..
as I said before we know who we are and repeative posts won't change anything.

[Il Principe]

as I said before we know who we are
Those who imagine that Kemal Ataturk was the same race as the Uyghurs in China clearly do not know who they are.


and repeative posts won't change anything.
True.

[Sophie]

That is not an accurate science, its just personal selective observation, hardly good enough if you ask me.

Also, i never said that Turks dont have Far asian ancestry at all, that is another thing altogether, but that ancestry should not be labelled Turkic, which is only and exclusively a language group, as labelling it Turkic gives a false impression that all modern Turkic speaking populations share a common ancestry (Turanism), which is what i am telling you is not the case, the various people have a very distinct genetic build-up with no obvious genetic ties to each other, except what you would expect from a inter-regional relationship.

So then what ties the Swedes to the Brits? One can argue the same thing, that you are very different people with the only similarity being your languages.

I'll answer the question for you, it's the Germanic look, culture, etc.

[Dacul]

Some scientists including romanians made some comparasion between some old thracian bones and populations from Balkans and Turkey and found those people from Turkey most closed to those thracians.
You do realise from here how "turkic" is current day population of Turkey.
Lol population of today Turkey is european mixed with caucasian,there is nothing turkic in them.
I think most turkic ancestry from Europe have the people from Hungary and some people from Transylvania.But most means like maximum 5%.
In fact based on the look I would say that people from Transylvania have a lil more turkic (central asian) admixture than people from Hungary.

[Il Principe]

I'll answer the question for you, it's the Germanic look
Sorry, wrong answer. It is the Nordic look (which is native to Northwestern Europe and existed before the Germanic languages came).

How would you explain the English people who visually resemble the Irish, even though the former are a Germanic people and the latter are not? (HINT: It may have something to do with both being native to the same isles in Northwestern Europe, irrespective of their cultures.)

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Those who imagine that Kemal Ataturk was the same race as the Uyghurs in China clearly do not know who they are.



Why don't you ask Uygurs ?
Even Chinese agree with me..They call Uygurs Turk people


All the best in your future, my borther. I am friendly to any turkish people in my country, including uyguirs and Kazakhstan. In fact very few chinese Know that Turkey is the country just near the great wall, have a historical realtionship. Although I hate some your comments, I do wish the Turkey can thrive in that region. It is like a double sides of myself. I alway wish you can leave my country alone, stopping spreading hates among uygurs or Kazakhstan with Han chinese. We alreay have enough.

A Chinese told me about a Turkic General in History of China
( Chinese Empire Period)

This turkish general alway loyal to the emperor, contribute a lot to the country. This guy used to be captured by the enemy, the emperor used his daughter as a hotage to exchange him back.
when the emperor passed away, the turkish general want to sucide himself to serve the emperor in another world.
Oh men, i really wish you can read chinese. so many lovely stories there.

As you see not everyone on this planet has that twisted sense of history and ethnicity.

[evon]

So then what ties the Swedes to the Brits? One can argue the same thing, that you are very different people with the only similarity being your languages.

I'll answer the question for you, it's the Germanic look, culture, etc.

No, Brits and Swedes are not the same people, but they are close genetically, mainly for two reasons, inter-immigration from proxy groups such as Danes and Norwegians to UK, giving the local population genetic input that is similar to Swedish, and Immigration from other proxy countries into Sweden, the other reason is because North Europeans all belong to a very small genepool, that makes us more similar then many other populations, which is not really a good thing since it means we are more inbred i guess :D

There is no Germanic, Turkic, Latin ect looks, repeating such psudo-science over and over will not make it true.

The cultural similarities between Sweden and UK is related to as i said earlier inter-immigration, but also a common protestant religious adherence, but they are far from the same i can assure you of that, or maybe all North European cultures look the same to you?

[Sophie]

Wrong answer, Turk. It is the Northwestern European look (which existed in Northern Europe before the Germanic languages even came).

How would you explain English people visually resembling the Irish, even though the former are Germanic and the latter are not?

The Irish/Scots/Welsh have a lot of Germanic blood from the time of the Anglo-Saxons, Normans, etc. If they were still pure Celts today, they would look more or less the same as Iberians which is obviously not the case. While Celts in the northwest became lighter as the result of the Germanic invasions, Celts in the Iberian peninsula gradually became darker as the result of the Romanization process.

[Dacul]

@Evon:Actually norwegians are most close from to UK,not swedes.
If you include Iceland also,icelanders are most closed to UK from Norway,Sweden,Denmark,Iceland.

[evon]

@Evon:Actually norwegians are most close from to UK,not swedes.
If you include Iceland also,icelanders are most closed to UK from Norway,Sweden,Denmark,Iceland.

Of course, Norwegians are just across the pond from UK, so its natural that we are very similar, but we are not the same.

[Il Principe]

Why don't you ask Uygurs ?
Why do I need to ask for the opinion of the Uyghurs? Why should I care? One does not need to be a movie director to judge if a movie is terrible.

Any human with eyes and a functional brain can see that this:

http://www.ibusosyal.com/sites/default/files/3_0.jpg

Is not racially the same as this:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/photography/uighurs/graphics/uighurs6.jpg

The former was a Balkan native, the latter were mongoloid Central Asians. Their only common bond is that they spoke related languages, that is all.


Even Chinese agree with me..They call Uygurs Turk people
Yes, because they speak a Turkic language (as opposed to Mandarin). I repeat, this has nothing to do with those people in Istanbul who happen to speak a related language.


Chinese told me about a Turkic General in History of China:

This turkish general alway loyal to the emperor, contribute a lot to the country. This guy used to be captured by the enemy, the emperor used his daughter as a hotage to exchange him back.
when the emperor passed away, the turkish general want to sucide himself to serve the emperor in another world.
Indeed, I am absolutely sure that a real translator from classical Chinese would misspell words like "hostage" and use words like "this guy". ;)

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Why do I need to ask for the opinion of the Uyghurs? Why should I care, even?

Why do we need opinion of yours?
I did not edited his post..just copied and pasted..

[Sophie]

Geographically we are not that far apart (except maybe Siberian Turks)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Oe9J8lSmYek/Tztqmljar2I/AAAAAAAABfM/Qc3gnOrh5y8/s1600/Turkic_language_speaking.PNG

[Il Principe]

Geographically we are not that far apart
For god's sake, Anatolian Turks are geographically closer to Germans than to Uyghurs. The geography argument means nothing.

One might as well argue that "Americans" are all the same, due to proximity to each other.

[Corvus]

I think Turks are more authorities on this matter, just like the English are more competent when it comes to the English ethnogenesis.

[evon]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Oe9J8lSmYek/Tztqmljar2I/AAAAAAAABfM/Qc3gnOrh5y8/s1600/Turkic_language_speaking.PNG

That map is wrong by the way, i shows various deserted areas as being populated ect :thumb001:


I think Turks are more authorities on this matter, just like the English are more competent when it comes to the English ethnogenesis.

So Turks are better qualified to say that linguistic groups = biological ancestry? As these girls are really trying to make that point, and they use Germanic as a example, which is also just another language group.

[StonyArabia]

The Tatars were converted to Islam by Arab missionaries from Yemen and Iraq in the 15th century

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Asians understand eachother better (even Chinese) I experienced that a lot..Talking to you is talking to a wall..
Geography brings a cultural mindset that makes Istanbul close to Uygurs but never to Germans.

[Dacul]

Of course, Norwegians are just across the pond from UK, so its natural that we are very similar, but we are not the same.

Ye your women have much bigger tits on average.
:)
Even though they also have plenty of keltic ancestry.
Cause most of keltic ancestry in Norway came with keltic women that norwegian vikings brought with them.

[Corvus]

That map is wrong by the way, i shows various deserted areas as being populated ect :thumb001:



So Turks are better qualified to say that linguistic groups = biological ancestry? As these girls are really trying to make that point, and they use Germanic as a example, which is also just another language group.

Yes I think so, because I would also not like someone from another part of the world explain to me to whom certain Central Europeans are more related to.

[Sophie]

That map is wrong by the way, i shows various deserted areas as being populated ect :thumb001:



So Turks are better qualified to say that linguistic groups = biological ancestry? As these girls are really trying to make that point, and they use Germanic as a example, which is also just another language group.

Which part of the map is "wrong" to you?

And of course we have biological connections to eachother. You think our languages/cultures/customs/identities came with aliens from mars? :picard1:

[Insuperable]

Why do I need to ask for the opinion of the Uyghurs? Why should I care? One does not need to be a movie director to judge if a movie is terrible.

Any human with eyes and a functional brain can see that this:

http://www.ibusosyal.com/sites/default/files/3_0.jpg

Is not racially the same as this:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/photography/uighurs/graphics/uighurs6.jpg

The former was a Balkan native, the latter were mongoloid Central Asians. Their only common bond is that they spoke related languages, that is all.


Yes, because they speak a Turkic language (as opposed to Mandarin). I repeat, this has nothing to do with those people in Istanbul who happen to speak a related language.


Indeed, I am absolutely sure that a real translator from classical Chinese would misspell words like "hostage" and use words like "this guy". ;)

And let us not forget that Uyghurs are even mixed


The Uyghurs are a population with Eastern and Western Eurasian anthropometric and genetic traits. Uyghurs are thus one of the many populations of Central Eurasia that can be considered to be genetically related to European and East Asian populations. However, various scientific studies differ on the size of each component.[64] One study, using samples from Hetian (Hotan) only, found that Uyghurs have 60% European ancestry and 40% East Asian ancestry.[65] A further study showed slightly greater European component (52%) in the Uyghur population in southern Xinjiang, but slightly greater East Asian component (53%) in the northern Uyghur population.[66] Another study used a larger sample of individuals from a wider area, and found only about 30% European component to the admixture.[67] A study on mitochondrial DNA (therefore the matrilineal genetic contribution) found the frequency of western Eurasian-specific haplogroup in Uyghurs to be 42.6%.[68]

[evon]

Asians understand eachother better (even Chinese) I experienced that a lot..Talking to you is talking to a wall..Geography brings a cultural mindset it makes Istanbul close to Uygurs but never to Germans.

Girl, you sure know how to make a guy laugh :D

But iknow that many Turks feel strongly about Turnaist ideas, just like many worship ataturk to the extreme (having him as they avatar), many turks are simply hostage of past ideas (which ironically are European in origin). I just hope you guys wake up and join the future, for it is now..and time waits for noone..


The Tatars were converted to Islam by Arab missionaries from Yemen and Iraq in the 15th century

Yes i noted allot of Mid eastern matching segments in Tatars and Kazahks, which is quite cool and could very well be a trace from some of these peoples?


Ye your women have much bigger tits on average.
:)
Even though they also have plenty of keltic ancestry.
Cause most of keltic ancestry in Norway came with keltic women that norwegian vikings brought with them.

Its more probable that these people came to Norway at a later date, we had allot of immigration from Scotland to name but a few, also from Iceland ect post-Viking age..

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

I am not Turanist I love my culture and my roots and I don't care what total strangers think about that..since it's none of your business
I know how to make kurut -nomadic milk product (from grandma) and everyone in central Asia knows that..over 1000 , 2000 or more years old recipe ties me to my anchient ancestors..
That's my heritage, i m proud of it.
anyway Mr Troll good night ..

[evon]

Yes I think so, because I would also not like someone from another part of the world explain to me to whom certain Central Europeans are more related to.

But they just did:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1061426&postcount=101

:picard1:


Which part of the map is "wrong" to you?

And of course we have biological connections to eachother. You think our languages/cultures/customs/identities came with aliens from mars? :picard1:

The deserts of Central Asia is not populated, ect:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Central_Asia_Ethnic_en.svg

If you can find me such a biological connection i would be happy to accept it given its scientific of course, as i said before, i have looked for it, but i did not find it, which surprised me at first, but now makes more and more sense as i learn about migrations and Eurasian history.

[Pallantides]

anyway Mr Troll good night ..

evon a troll... :confused::icon_ask:

He is no troll, he is family :D

[evon]

I am not Turanist I love my culture and my roots and I don't care what total strangers think about that..since it's none of your business
anyway Mr Troll good night ..

I can assure you i am not a troll, and if you believe in a Turkic brotherhood i think you fit within the Turanist idea, unless i am wrong about the basics of Turnaism?

Your roots and your culture is not whats up for question here, its the fictional ideas of the early 1900's that use language to build a artificial biological connection between peoples across the world, and such psudo science needs to be put down hard so that real science can lead the way.

good night by the way :)

[Sophie]

But they just did:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1061426&postcount=101

:picard1:



The deserts of Central Asia is not populated, ect:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Central_Asia_Ethnic_en.svg

If you can find me such a biological connection i would be happy to accept it given its scientific of course, as i said before, i have looked for it, but i did not find it, which surprised me at first, but now makes more and more sense as i learn about migrations and Eurasian history.


The lighter shaded areas on the map means they are scarcely populated. So it is not wrong because there are Turks living in the deserts, although less ones.

[Dacul]

evon a troll... :confused::icon_ask:

Lies Evon does not have enough trollish admixture,he has about 10% iberian admixture and plenty of northwestern european admixture and also some balto-uralic admixture.
He could be an elf however,since he has plenty of northwestern european admixture.
Now what is trollish admixture,question is?
Iberian can not be,northwestern european can not be either,since those people were having trolls as enemies,meh,maybe some people from Balkans and Romania are natural born trolls.

[Pallantides]

from this day he will be called 'evon half-troll' :p

[evon]

Calm down now, elf and half troll :P crazy people...

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

I can assure you i am not a troll, and if you believe in a Turkic brotherhood i think you fit within the Turanist idea, unless i am wrong about the basics of Turnaism?

Your roots and your culture is not whats up for question here, its the fictional ideas of the early 1900's that use language to build a artificial biological connection between peoples across the world, and such psudo science needs to be put down hard so that real science can lead the way.

good night by the way :)
Do you think we need approval for our identity..no we don't
and your extreme interest in our matters is annoying so i still call you a troll Mr Evon.

[only1]

My two cents on this subject: tatars trace themselves to Ismail son of Ibrahim.

That's where they got their warlike characher and military success.

[Il Principe]

Yes I think so, because I would also not like
Racial realities are objective facts and have nothing to do with what you "like" or "don't like".

Your tender personal feelings are utterly irrelevant to this topic (as are the feelings of the Turanic Teenage Squad who imagine a blood kinship between beach wogs in Antalya and mongoloid Siberian tribesmen.)

[evon]

Do you think we need approval for our identity..no we don't
and your extreme interest in our matters is annoying so i still call you a troll mr Evon.

A troll is someone who deliberately tries to stir a emotional reaction in his "opponent" and uses that as his goal, my behaviour is not like that at all, i use science and want to advance science, my interest in Tatars is just like my interest in history (i am an historian by the way), they are a fascinating people that have made a huge impact on the Eurasian scene.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

A troll is someone who deliberately tried to stir a emotional reaction in his "opponent" and uses that as his goal,

Sorry but you do that exactly..
there are al least 1000 posts about that.I even don't bother to send pages because it's so useless i m sure in two weeks you are going to post same things ...we are not getting anywhere
i m so bored..


Good night

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

My two cents on this subject: tatars trace themselves to Ismail son of Ibrahim.

That's where they got their warlike characher and military success.

HAHAHAAAAA
made my day ..

[evon]

Sorry but you do that exactly..Good night

I dont care about your emotional reaction, i care about the science that is being presented in this thread, if you cant handle that i guess you need to look at yourself? its not trolling to challenge bad science, if that was the case we would be in a heap of problems.

and as i said over and over, i never attacked your identity, as you keep saying, but if you justify your identity based on psudo science i guess i would object to the psudo science.

[only1]

HAHAHAAAAA
made my day ..

Laugh as much as you want, thats the truth.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Laugh as much as you want, thats the truth.

Ismail was Chinggis Khan?:p

[only1]

He was his ancestor according to some accounts.

[korkolola]

korkolola, I don't remember. I remember once I wanted to post pics of Lith. Tatars, but read in some article that a lot of such people don't have old roots here, that's But yes, it's related to 20th c. By the way, there is a newspaper called Lietuvos Totoriai, at least one of this issues is uploaded online, perhaps you will find something there. (In any case, it;s a very good information source about Lithuanian Tatars and their history)

beaver, my Russian is ehmm.. could you rather write to me in English?

I see.

I have a few friends here in Lithuania, who belong to the local community and it really depends a lot on where one's grandparents/greatgrandparents are from.

Lipka Tatars are traditionally based (or their roots are based) in Southern Lithuania (Alytus, Butrimonys) or in the districts around Vilnius (Trakai, Aukštadvaris, the famous 40 Totorių kaimas (40 Tatar village)).

Lipka Tatars, as far as I know it from my friends, who are Lipka Tatars themselves, are usually very Lithuanianized - they usually have international/Lithuanian names, whereas their surnames like Jakubauskas, etc. have Tatar 'root' coming from the names of the soldiers (e.g.; Jakub) and Lithuanian endings.

My friends have also told me there are some people in the community who come from places like Russia, Tatarstan, but they usually have either Russian or exotic sounding names and surnames, that's how you differentiate it.

It's all supposed to be about traditions and Islam in the community, but Lithuanianized Tatars mix difficult with Russian Tatars, so the community is somewhat in decline due to heavy assimilation, intermarriages and stuff.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Altaic Semites ..lovely :))

[only1]

Just because you have chosen to be a heathen, as if you were a black idolator, doesn't give you any right to mock on ancient traditions passed for generations.

[cmd_]

Turanist mad now.

[Mordid]

I see.

I have a few friends here in Lithuania, who belong to the local community and it really depends a lot on where one's grandparents/greatgrandparents are from.

Lipka Tatars are traditionally based (or their roots are based) in Southern Lithuania (Alytus, Butrimonys) or in the districts around Vilnius (Trakai, Aukštadvaris, the famous 40 Totorių kaimas (40 Tatar village)).

Lipka Tatars, as far as I know it from my friends, who are Lipka Tatars themselves, are usually very Lithuanianized - they usually have international/Lithuanian names, whereas their surnames like Jakubauskas, etc. have Tatar 'root' coming from the names of the soldiers (e.g.; Jakub) and Lithuanian endings.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgp65vJoPF1qd2avdo1_500.gif

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

ok, This heaten goes..I learnt a new thing today
Genghis was Ismail and speaking semitic..I feel enlighted ..Haleluja:D

[only1]

You should be ashamed you've left your ancestors legacy for some new age craziness.

Ghengis Khan was a descendant of Ishmael, according to tatar traditions. You dont accept it, fine. That doesn't mean he spoke semitic, because there's not any bonding connection between lineage or racial stock to langauge. His distant ancestors might have spoken a "semitic language", though.

[Pecheneg]

They were originally mongoloid, but Central Asia being the racial melting-pot it is, they gradually became more Eurasian in appearance. I suppose this is the typical "Turkic look" (which is distributed amongst all Turkic-speaking nations except for Turkey), although it's quite independent of language. Which is what "Turkic" is, after all.

Have you ever seen a Qashqai, Kumyk, Balkar, Gagauz, Khorasan Turkmen, Iraq Turkmen, Karaim etc..?? Those Turkic nations are not mongoloid in appearance either.

and There are different Turkic branchs such as Oghuz, Kypchak, Oghur, Karluk etc... Turks, Gagauz, Turkmens, Qashqai, Iraqi&Syrian Turkmens and Azerbaijan are belong to Oghuz group. (heirs of Great Seljuk Empire)

and btw, most of you "indo-european speakers" in europe have nothing to do with true/original indo-european nomads from Kurgan steppes. A big portion of european populations are descendants of mesolithic, paleolithic blba bla bla (basically pre-indo-european) populations, while near all of you are indo-european speakers.




Girl, you sure know how to make a guy laugh :D

But iknow that many Turks feel strongly about Turnaist ideas, just like many worship ataturk to the extreme (having him as they avatar), many turks are simply hostage of past ideas (which ironically are European in origin). I just hope you guys wake up and join the future, for it is now..and time waits for noone..

Ok, what if i would support Turanism, why do you care so much? It's not funnier than aryan-brotherhood.

[bayar]

Bashkir from the U.S. of course know better :D

Of course, I do.


You asked a question above here and then you answered yourself;


"Slavicised Tatars" are these people who consider themselves as Russians, Ukrainians etc.

There are millions of Russified Tatars in Russia and their assimilation began after 1860s during the mass Tatar exodus and intensified during communist era. Russians erased their identity by forcefully russifying them during communist era. They forbid their religious beliefs, educated them only in Russian language, changed their names with slavic ones like "-ov - eva - ova"...

You are talking about culture, and I am talking about genetics. Yes, without doubt there are more than enough russified Tatars who don't speak their language, don't observe Tatar traditions, etc.

[Pecheneg]

Why do I need to ask for the opinion of the Uyghurs? Why should I care? One does not need to be a movie director to judge if a movie is terrible.

Any human with eyes and a functional brain can see that this:

http://www.ibusosyal.com/sites/default/files/3_0.jpg

Is not racially the same as this:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/photography/uighurs/graphics/uighurs6.jpg



Uyghurs are descendants of Karluk Turks you dumb, The Oghuz (ancestors of Turks of anatolia) and Karluk groups were already seperated thousands of years ago, Seljuk Turks (aka Oghuz) who were conquered & settled anatolia were from today's Turkmenistan. Turkmens of Turkmenistan are ~15% east asian while Turks of Turkey are ~7%, so you better read history before spread nonsense.

[StonyArabia]

Yes i noted allot of Mid eastern matching segments in Tatars and Kazahks, which is quite cool and could very well be a trace from some of these peoples?

Most likely Yemenite missionaries were very active in the Caucasus, Central Asia, and South East Asia, this how the latter in fact embraced Islam. As well Iraqi missionaries who made an important mark, especially with Ibn Fadlan, some probably intermarried and stayed with the locals, hence this seem to indicate rather an Arabian influence, which speaks through their genes it seems.

[Sophie]

Iraqi/Syrian Turcomans are actually Azeris. They have nothing do with the Turkmens of Turkmenistan (well except for the fact that both are Oghuz)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Map-Oguz_Language_World.png

[cmd_]

Kapa çeneni orospu çocuğu.Tengri mad now.

[Pecheneg]

--

[Sophie]

Most likely Yemenite missionaries were very active in the Caucasus, Central Asia, and South East Asia, this how the latter in fact embraced Islam. As well Iraqi missionaries who made an important mark, especially with Ibn Fadlan, some probably intermarried and stayed with the locals, hence this seem to indicate rather an Arabian influence, which speaks through their genes it seems.

False. Most "Islamic" missionaries in Asia were not Arabs, but actually Persians. Tatars and other Eastern Turkic groups don't have any Arabian admixture. Their Caucasoid admixture predominantly comes from the East Iranic peoples that preceded those regions such as Scythians, Bactrians, Soghdians, Chorasmians, etc.

[Dengizik]

Il principe and evon ignorant as fuck. they think they know something and claimed there is no relation in central asian turks with anatolian turks :D and his evidence is pictures LOL :D i will talk to you with reality i doubt when you came turkey and saw all of our faces but i am lived in turkey always i must tell you something. well, surprise but you can find all kinds of turkic tribes in turkey. as an example i am from crimean tatars and my friend he is volga tatar. actually doesnt need bother to argue with you. you think we have relatives with chinese :D and asked why we dont look like them LOL now take your evidences and GTFO

[Pecheneg]

They are really obsessed with genetics of Turkic nations and i think its simply jealousy&admiration symptom.
It seems some people are really afraid of pan-Turkism.

[Onur]

He meant that Tatars are very Russianized, to the point that they side with the Russians in conflicts against Muslim wogs and other non-Russian ethnic groups. Race riots in the army, for example, tend to prove this. The Tatars, being an Eurasian people, have this bond with Russia mainly due to shared history and culture.
Their assimilation to the Russian society was not a natural process but it happened forcefully. Russians forbid them to live in their own culture for more than a century and changed their names with slavic ones. Also their shared history is nothing but blood and massacres.

Russians massacred millions of Tatars and destroyed their cities several times throughout history. The last major event happened in 1860s when they killed 100.000s of them and expelled out a million of them from their homeland in Crimea. They tried to free themselves from the grasp of Moscow during the WW-2 but their hopes faded again with the defeat of Hitler and Stalin sent 10.000s of them to the Siberian deserts again.

[Onur]

Here is one more Tatar.

Aliya Mustafina. She won gold medal in gymnastics yesterday, ofc in the name of Russia;

http://media.northjersey.com/images/080612_mustafina_dngso.jpg
http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n481/A4Turbo04/Aliya.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8604bgLDd1rx4m6wo1_1280.png

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

.


So you spent your time and energy for faking-twisting this really cute picture.
enjoy your freaky avatar freak!.
it suits you ,since you like everything fake and twisted .

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

I dont care about your emotional reaction,.

Actually its you being emotional
First Hulagu, now Timur
Your mind is under invasion of Golden Horde :D

[sevruk]

I wrote that the Balts or Slavs or other European lived in the territory of contemporary Tatarstan, before the arrival of the Bulgars. Imenkovo Culture (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D 1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1 %82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0)

[beaver]

I wrote that the Balts or Slavs or other European lived in the territory of contemporary Tatarstan, before the arrival of the Bulgars. Imenkovo Culture
Balts, to be precise, people speaking something like modern Lithuanians or Latvians. Slavic invasion was later. For example, Russians (Novgorods) settled in the Vyatka gubernia only about 1500. Udmurts lived there before. Russians in Vyatka lived commonly by piracy in Tatar areas. (Ushkuinics)

[Han Cholo]

I wrote that the Balts or Slavs or other European lived in the territory of contemporary Tatarstan, before the arrival of the Bulgars. Imenkovo Culture (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D 1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1 %82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0)

Likely Iranians, Slav and Finno-Ugrians.

[beaver]

Likely Iranians, Slav and Finno-Ugrians.
Slavs originated firstly under the Iranian influence about 5 BC. Some Pole families still derive themselves from Sarmats. Let Polish members correct me if I'm wrong.

[sevruk]

Balts, to be precise, people speaking something like modern Lithuanians or Latvians. Slavic invasion was later. For example, Russians (Novgorods) settled in the Vyatka gubernia only about 1500. Udmurts lived there before. Russians in Vyatka lived commonly by piracy in Tatar areas. (Ushkuinics)

language Imenkovo people was proto-Baltic or proto-Slavic. To modern Lithuanian and Russian had no relationship.

[Sophie]

Balts, to be precise, people speaking something like modern Lithuanians or Latvians. Slavic invasion was later. For example, Russians (Novgorods) settled in the Vyatka gubernia only about 1500. Udmurts lived there before. Russians in Vyatka lived commonly by piracy in Tatar areas. (Ushkuinics)

I know for a fact that Balto-Slavs migrated to that region rather recently (coming from the northwest). The indigenous population was probably a mixture of the Iranic tribes in the south and the Uralic tribes of the north.


http://www.sikharchives.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/scythians_map.jpg

[beaver]

language Imenkovo people was proto-Baltic or proto-Slavic.
Arian, Slavic version originated later on under Iranian influence.

I know for a fact that Slavs migrated to that region rather recently (coming from the northeast). The indigenous population was probably a mixture of Iranic and Uralic elements. It's hard to say which was there first.
from the southwest (from the Poland). The population on the current Tatar area was Baltic (IE/Iranian)-speaking.

[sevruk]

arian, slavic version originated later on under iranian influence.


1)Я говорю о протославянах, которые возникли еще до нашей эры.
2)Кроме того Иранцы и есть Арии.
3)Именьковская культура происходит из зоны происхождения славян, также после прихода булгар, большинство населения мигрировало в зону распространения восточных славян. Лично я считаю что именьковцы были именно славянами (протославянами) с некоторым балтским и финно-угорским влиянием.

[evon]

Ok, what if i would support Turanism, why do you care so much? It's not funnier than aryan-brotherhood.

Yes, both ideas are based on psudo-science!



False. Most "Islamic" missionaries in Asia were not Arabs, but actually Persians. Tatars and other Eastern Turkic groups don't have any Arabian admixture. Their Caucasoid admixture predominantly comes from the East Iranic peoples that preceded those regions such as Scythians, Bactrians, Soghdians, Chorasmians, etc.

I think the link to Arabs is clear using segment genetics via 23andme.com, this seems to indicate arab influence there, or it could indicate say kazahk influence in the various arabic countries that i have noted such segments, but given the history of missionary activity in kazakhstan i thought it was likely the geneflow went north and not south in this case.


Il principe and evon ignorant as fuck. they think they know something and claimed there is no relation in central asian turks with anatolian turks :D and his evidence is pictures LOL :D i will talk to you with reality i doubt when you came turkey and saw all of our faces but i am lived in turkey always i must tell you something. well, surprise but you can find all kinds of turkic tribes in turkey. as an example i am from crimean tatars and my friend he is volga tatar. actually doesnt need bother to argue with you. you think we have relatives with chinese :D and asked why we dont look like them LOL now take your evidences and GTFO

I never claimed there was no link to central asia, but the link is not Turkic, since Turkic is a language group. i have looked at segment matching between various Turkic, and indo-european speaking peoples, so far there is a strong link between regions, such as Turkey and Iran, Turkey and Russia ect, but there is no such link between Tatars and Turkey as an example, i also looked at IBS/IBD scores between various peoples using both Dodecad and Eurogenes data, which seem to support this idea that the links between Turkic speaking populations is merely down to regional location in the genetic landscape, and not down to any deep ancestral bond.

If you want i can search for the Eurogenes and Dodecad data later tonight?


They are really obsessed with genetics of Turkic nations and i think its simply jealousy&admiration symptom.
It seems some people are really afraid of pan-Turkism.

Turanist ideas are as bad as any 1900's racial ideas, its based on linguistics and so should be seen as redundant in our age of genetics.


Actually its you being emotional
First Hulagu, now Timur
Your mind is under invasion of Golden Horde :D

Now who is trolling ey?

[Sarmatian]

Their assimilation to the Russian society was not a natural process but it happened forcefully. Russians forbid them to live in their own culture for more than a century and changed their names with slavic ones. Also their shared history is nothing but blood and massacres.

Russians massacred millions of Tatars and destroyed their cities several times throughout history. The last major event happened in 1860s when they killed 100.000s of them and expelled out a million of them from their homeland in Crimea. They tried to free themselves from the grasp of Moscow during the WW-2 but their hopes faded again with the defeat of Hitler and Stalin sent 10.000s of them to the Siberian deserts again.

Big fat lie in almost every sentence :picard1:

[beaver]

1)Я говорю о протославянах, которые возникли еще до нашей эры.
2)Кроме того Иранцы и есть Арии.
3)Именьковская культура происходит из зоны происхождения славян, также после прихода булгар, большинство населения мигрировало в зону распространения восточных славян. Лично я считаю что именьковцы были именно славянами (протославянами) с некоторым балтским и финно-угорским влиянием.
Севрюк, тут вся пролема связана с "протославянами", ну не могут русские примириться с тем, что они ветвь так называемых ариев, а не центральный ствол. Я бъюсь на форумах уже много лет с русскими нордицистами. Не пробивают их никакие аргументы, русские - 100% арии, хоть ты тресни. Слишком много Штирлица смотрели.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Now who is trolling ey?

this is not trolling..

This is how you had your well deserved answer
Your obsession with Altaic nations is obvious.You are so much full of them in your mind weirdo..

[beaver]

Russians massacred millions of Tatars and destroyed their cities several times throughout history.
Yeah, Vyatka even lived robbing Tatars - the main income to the budget. And so what? We are bad guys? What about vikings then?

[evon]

this is not trolling..

This is how you had your well deserved answer
Your obsession with Altaic nations is obvious.You are so much full of them in your mind weirdo..

When you go from debating with arguments about the case in mind, to attacking the person whom you are debating with you are trolling for sure, i guess i even did this earlier, which was not my intent, for that i apologise.

Since when was having an interest in something considered weird :P surely you have not met many higher educated people i take it then, as all of us have interests in "weird" topics, some with a huge passion, others with a stoic approach, i consider myself one of the passionate ones, and history is my domain.. :D

[member]

language Imenkovo people was proto-Baltic or proto-Slavic. To modern Lithuanian and Russian had no relationship.

IV—VII c. :picard1:

Dude, West-East split in Baltic happened before Christ, 5th c. BC.

During the time frame you are talking about dialects of Eastern Baltic where forming.

Here you fan several good maps explaining how far did Balts reach. (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D 0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%82%D1%8B) In Russian.

[Insuperable]

Uyghurs are descendants of Karluk Turks you dumb, The Oghuz (ancestors of Turks of anatolia) and Karluk groups were already seperated thousands of years ago, Seljuk Turks (aka Oghuz) who were conquered & settled anatolia were from today's Turkmenistan. Turkmens of Turkmenistan are ~15% east asian while Turks of Turkey are ~7%, so you better read history before spread nonsense.

Nobody denied that there is not any connection between Turkic tribes. He was simply saying that Turkics compared to Germanics are very genetically heterogeneous while Evon was simply saying that despite this Germanic homogeneousity it is hard to define Germanic look because as you can everyday see on TA "classify this" "classify that"

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

When you go from debating with arguments about the case in mind, to attacking the person whom you are debating with you are trolling for sure, i guess i even did this earlier, which was not my intent, for that i apologise.

Since when was having an interest in something considered weird :P surely you have not met many higher educated people i take it then, as all of us have interests in "weird" topics, some with a huge passion, others with a stoic approach, i consider myself one of the passionate ones, and history is my domain.. :D



I wont argue after you said this


Why do I need to ask for the opinion of the Uyghurs? Why should I care, even?


You don't care real Turkics opinions .

We are not plants animals, horses etc.We are human and we speak for ourselves ..I refuse to argue with a person who take people as test material.
And you do it for ideologic reasons not science...it's your anti turan paranoia ,even a person who is -naturally- interested in her ancestral heritage ,starts alarm bells in you..
labeling me a Turanist don't you think how annoying you are..

I tell you what..when we come together with other Turkic we don't talk about DNA maps...We talk about things that connect us after thousand years..

we talk about our food ,music language ,daily life ...
we talk real things
Not how we are going to invade the world either :p
so no need to ring Krakow bells ..it's not 13th century ..

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/466/hejnaltrumpeter.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/201/hejnaltrumpeter.jpg/)

The Trumpeter of Cracow still alarms a Tatar invasion
The Tatar invation was in 1241. Is it really possible that this signal was played at that time?

[evon]

I wont argue after you said this




Ah, sorry, i misread :( my bad..hope the moderator can forgive me for reporting it, was an error on my part..

But clearly you should agree that ad hominem attacks are not a good way to debate.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Ah, sorry, i misread :( my bad..hope the moderator can forgive me for reporting it, was an error on my part..

But clearly you should agree that ad hominem attacks are not a good way to debate.


I am not debating..You said communication didn't you..
We just feel happy when we talk to eachother with other Turkics ,it's very humanly thing and no one can understand how it is exciting when you find someone at the edge of the world speaking same language ,having similar names ,cooking same food for thousand years .
Like finding long lost relatives ..that experience is priceless for us ..Only we ,Altaic step nomads can understand this feeling..
And no tests can measure it..That's belong to us and only to us.:)

may be its time to see things in a fresh point of view..non ideologic but cultural ..
may be its time to understand we are human,not some numbers and DNA records ..huh?

That will be a communication..you cant communicate with haplogroups

[Pallantides]

Ah, sorry, i misread :( my bad..hope the moderator can forgive me for reporting it, was an error on my part..


I was just arming myself to defend your honor.
http://i.imgur.com/FcV0W.jpg

[evon]

I am not debating..You said communication didn't you..
We just feel happy when we talk to eachother with other Turkics ,it's very humanly thing and no one can understand how it is exciting when you find someone at the edge of the world speaking same language ,having similar names ,cooking same food for thousand years .
Like finding long lost relatives ..that experience is priceless for us ..Only we ,Altaic step nomads can understand this feeling..
And no tests can measure it..That's belong to us and only to us.:)

may be its time to see things in a fresh point of view..non ideologic but cultural ..
may be its time to understand we are human,not some numbers and DNA records ..huh?

That will be a communication..you cant communicate with haplogroups

I am happy for you to have such a "cosmic" feeling towards fellow Turkic speakers :thumb001: i guess its similar to what i feel when i meet other Scandinavians, and even to a degree German and Dutch people whom i can also communicate with, i never meant to belittle that degree of linguistic or cultural identity, i only object when people talk of Turkic as a biological bond, but since thats not your argument we seem to agree :D

Lets just live and let live, no need to be stone walling each other:puppy_dp:

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

i only object when people talk of Turkic as a biological bond, but since thats not your argument we seem to agree :D

Lets just live and let live, no need to be stone walling each other:puppy_dp:
Thank you ..
actually we have some degree biological bound
(it depends on tribe ofcourse ) ,since we are too Eurasians
but let's not start all over again ..:)

[evon]

Thank you ..
actually we have some degree biological bound
(it depends on tribe ofcourse ) ,since we are too Eurasians
but let's not start all over again ..:)

Have you tested via 23andme ect? I have done some research on the topic, so far there seem to be two major lines of DNA relatedness in Eurasia among Turkic speakers whom i looked into, among them is a few Tatars, mostly in Tatarstan, but also further west in Russia and also in Uzbekistan ect, i was fascinated by the strange tie Russian Tatars have to India, i have not yet figured out its origin, or its true spread as ive found its also seen in many Europeans, the Tatars in Uzbekistan have links going as far east as South Korea and the Philippines, again i dont know the origin or spread here, but its truly fascinating stuff ones you start to find patterns, so far my own research is limited to a few samples of Tatars, but the numbers keep increasing everyday as new people join 23andme:)

if you are interested in joining 23andme i am sure you could gather enough money by opening a paypal account and ask for donations from other forum users, i was planning to start such a project involving "rare" ethnic populations in Eurasia :thumb001: but i have not gotten around to it since i had allot of bills this summer...

[Olika]

Tatars from Kazan
http://cs6109.userapi.com/v6109354/5b7/zQVbZeFkX50.jpg
http://cs323922.userapi.com/v323922354/812/uFa_-m7hWAo.jpg
http://cs304808.userapi.com/v304808299/3796/fUyVvm3I_Y8.jpg
http://cs315120.userapi.com/v315120299/2069/GhC-fxCpBpE.jpg
http://cs315120.userapi.com/v315120299/1f48/w-bUdD5R6W0.jpg
http://cs323922.userapi.com/v323922354/ccd/KFpht3ljHf4.jpg
http://cs323922.userapi.com/v323922354/a77/T-ZAkIgRwWY.jpg
http://cs323922.userapi.com/v323922354/7b2/gLCEKCxXm6k.jpg
http://cs323922.userapi.com/v323922354/9d7/TUWH_uTD9L0.jpg
http://cs11293.userapi.com/v11293625/b4f/dfX-Fy9s26Q.jpg
http://cs407026.userapi.com/v407026885/f2f/n6D6SHBJke4.jpg

[Sky earth]

I think that half of them are "tatarized" Finno-Ugrics. This also explains why at least 42000 Mari people can speak tatar as third language. Turkic people have always married outside their race and assimilated other groups.

[Tabiti]

Kazan was one of the biggest Volga Bulgarian centers before the invasion of the Golden horde and continued to exist as such until the Russian conquest.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

I don't need a genetic test to certificate my Turkic identity ,esp from a European institution .Also race concept is culturally European, we don't have that ,so approval of my racial identity with a DNA test is against my nomadic natur-based culture.
Sedantery cultures are humancentric and tend to classify people ,objects ,environment ,tries to push human principles to nature which is considered chaotic ,my culture values harmony with nature so race based classification is not Altaic .
There is no one single kind of tree or flower in a forest .It's in human made gardens..We don't control nature ,we live as a part of it.

[Onur]

I have met with a guy from Tataristan earlier this week. He is a member of the academy of social sciences in republic of Tataristan and came to Ankara,Turkey for speaking in a congress about Golden Horde, Timur and their relations with Ottoman empire;

http://content.foto.mail.ru/mail/dilnur1976/_myphoto/i-1.jpg
http://content.foto.mail.ru/mail/dilnur1976/_myphoto/s-11.JPG

He looks like a typical Tatar with his short but strong build boney stature and a thick neck. He has rounded Alpine head and slanted eyes as most Tatars have. He has light brown hair and green eyes.

[evon]

I don't need a genetic test to certificate my Turkic identity ,esp from a European institution .Also race concept is culturally European, we don't have that ,so approval of my racial identity with a DNA test is against my nomadic natur-based culture.
Sedantery cultures are humancentric and tend to classify people ,objects ,environment ,tries to push human principles to nature which is considered chaotic ,my culture values harmony with nature so race based classification is not Altaic .
There is no one single kind of tree or flower in a forest .It's in human made gardens..We don't control nature ,we live as a part of it.

Not to re-engage in the previous debate, but a few things here are clearly wrong:

- Commercial DNA testing is in most cases done by American corporations, and the results when subjected to a proper admixture analysis is not Eurocentric, finding relatives via matching segments is also not Eurocentric.

- Turkic has never been a biologically ethnic group (there is no evidence to support that), it is primarily a linguistic group, but i would also say a cultural group.

- I highly doubt you are nomadic, most Turks are pretty far from any nomadic lifestyle, but you do follow in the footsteps of ethnic nationalism in romanticizing past peoples whom you are/could be related to, that makes sense given the high level of nationalism still present in Turkey, which is based on the idea of the noble and pure nomadic ancestors. (in my own country they also did a similar thing when we became independent back in the early 1900's).

Anyways, no hostility indented:)

[Pecheneg]

- I highly doubt you are nomadic, most Turks are pretty far from any nomadic lifestyle, but you do follow in the footsteps of ethnic nationalism in romanticizing past peoples whom you are/could be related to, that makes sense given the high level of nationalism still present in Turkey, which is based on the idea of the noble and pure nomadic ancestors. (in my own country they also did a similar thing when we became independent back in the early 1900's).

Almost half of the population of anatolia was nomadic in 15th -16th centuries. (according to Ottoman archival data)

90-95% of these nomads were Turks and the rest was Kurds and few Mongol tribes (aka Kara Tatars - leftover from İlkhanate ).
http://www.anadoluasiretleri.com/Page.php?pid=26
http://www.anadoluasiretleri.com/Page.php?pid=10



and even today, there are still nomadic Turkish tribes in taurus mountains. (Yörüks)
http://www.google.com.tr/search?hl=tr&q=y%C3%B6r%C3%BCk&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bpcl=35277026&biw=1366&bih=677&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=YFZ5UJ7TDsak4gSTo4DgDw

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Not to re-engage in the previous debate, but a few things here are clearly wrong:

- Commercial DNA testing is in most cases done by American corporations, and the results when subjected to a proper admixture analysis is not Eurocentric, finding relatives via matching segments is also not Eurocentric.

- Turkic has never been a biologically ethnic group (there is no evidence to support that), it is primarily a linguistic group, but i would also say a cultural group.

- I highly doubt you are nomadic, most Turks are pretty far from any nomadic lifestyle, but you do follow in the footsteps of ethnic nationalism in romanticizing past peoples whom you are/could be related to, that makes sense given the high level of nationalism still present in Turkey, which is based on the idea of the noble and pure nomadic ancestors. (in my own country they also did a similar thing when we became independent back in the early 1900's).

Anyways, no hostility indented:)

Well I can understand the sedantery nations and their point of view ,kozmology ,the way how they connect themselves to universe so I flatly say:yes I am nomadic even Ottomans forced nomadic tribes to settle places
There are reasons for that force settlement ,mostly they were sent to newly conqured lands as an empire policy ,nomadic tribes were difficult to tax or control (allied with Ilkhaneds-Tamerlane against Ottoman for instance) ,sedantery folk-"yatuqs" and nomads "yörüks" were not getting on well, one group needs land for farming, other needs for herding ,causing lots of problems..so on..

Anyway I am really not in need to prove my roots to you and I dont care seriously ..i just answered you because I newly saw your answer about dna test .
I am not interested in those tests ,because it's against my animistic nomadic beliefs .
I don't sense hostility but you are annoying ,It's my cultural heritage ,my treasure. .it's my right to be proud of it. Its not coming from history books I have grandfathers ,uncles ,and a family history .

Your attitute, i find quite disrespectful.I don't want to discuss with you anymore.

[sevruk]

Tatars from Kazan (People with Tatar names and surnames)
http://cs304605.userapi.com/v304605839/445c/W7ASFHznjf8.jpg
http://cs403121.userapi.com/v403121177/630a/XNH0dBp1Qyw.jpg
http://cs323430.userapi.com/v323430807/4be3/boPyuIv1tx0.jpg
http://cs407828.userapi.com/v407828097/302a/DvkoTtvpZX4.jpg
http://cs11497.userapi.com/u13179405/139916496/x_7defe3a6.jpg
http://cs307502.userapi.com/v307502480/27e7/KYPxaEjv_NI.jpg
http://cs9660.userapi.com/u6150502/118036159/x_892d486b.jpg
http://cs302415.userapi.com/v302415591/3ea6/jrAKXr7DAX4.jpg
http://cs316819.userapi.com/v316819880/2291/Qdqv62JvviM.jpg
http://cs308924.userapi.com/v308924538/ad5/auLBL5QC1Lk.jpg

[Gott]

Oh, I forgot about these little dudes.

[sevruk]

http://cs9666.userapi.com/u61712939/-7/x_f97ebb6f.jpg
http://cs302407.userapi.com/v302407290/c48/VPIhKzpIUXo.jpg
http://cs402416.userapi.com/v402416340/3b70/ve0PdXQxFo4.jpg
http://cs304306.userapi.com/v304306443/3170/J1gOZ9osQvI.jpg
http://cs410828.userapi.com/v410828773/2bbe/jzMoZ-78Kdo.jpg
http://cs303510.userapi.com/v303510199/3257/5dJKTBh6jYk.jpg
http://cs303607.userapi.com/u5088284/10358636/x_965cfa85.jpg
http://cs5211.userapi.com/u88442110/-6/x_f7b14f5b.jpg
http://cs304.userapi.com/u100097413/118221227/x_6dcf3020.jpg
http://cs305901.userapi.com/v305901737/5903/3WZffAm18_8.jpg
http://cs309523.userapi.com/v309523171/154c/w0vhUpP06pQ.jpg
http://cs406127.userapi.com/v406127588/2bb9/VC_JsszkCmw.jpg
http://cs4151.userapi.com/u46565268/96819164/x_679537ef.jpg
http://cs11150.userapi.com/u45698413/-6/x_69d8fcf7.jpg

[sevruk]

http://cs5551.userapi.com/u4275773/-6/x_e2778a7b.jpg
http://cs304603.userapi.com/v304603755/4610/S-s9v25a9r4.jpg
http://cs403020.userapi.com/v403020649/dc/GCzAjP3Ekxg.jpg
http://cs407230.userapi.com/v407230582/4272/knHKR90nlV4.jpg
http://cs10530.userapi.com/u123363674/130891683/x_8ecd94fc.jpg
http://cs5311.userapi.com/v5311844/7c8/EKYNy7_797U.jpg
http://cs318.userapi.com/u67020634/103445925/x_1f8aea2f.jpg
http://cs342.userapi.com/u29292638/92633486/x_c685c0b2.jpg
http://cs407830.userapi.com/v407830954/30ef/5ncEsdGan-s.jpg
http://cs303314.userapi.com/v303314181/ff1/iJCczH39nPk.jpg
http://cs419222.userapi.com/v419222976/49/hFVyhXyGKBk.jpg
http://cs303515.userapi.com/v303515735/b82/v8gVcqfMekg.jpg

[evon]

Almost half of the population of anatolia was nomadic in 15th -16th centuries. (according to Ottoman archival data)

90-95% of these nomads were Turks and the rest was Kurds and few Mongol tribes (aka Kara Tatars - leftover from İlkhanate ).
http://www.anadoluasiretleri.com/Page.php?pid=26
http://www.anadoluasiretleri.com/Page.php?pid=10

and even today, there are still nomadic Turkish tribes in taurus mountains. (Yörüks)
http://www.google.com.tr/search?hl=tr&q=y%C3%B6r%C3%BCk&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bpcl=35277026&biw=1366&bih=677&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=YFZ5UJ7TDsak4gSTo4DgDw


Yes, but i am talking about present day Nomads, not 15th century ect :p thats a very long time ago. and from my information modern nomads are only semi-nomadic, which means they are not nomadic 24/7 365 days a year, but only during a few months in the summer season, which is pretty much similar to various peoples in Scandinavia, whom i would never call nomadic. Now if one goes to countries such as Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Russia, you find real nomads, whom do not own a house, and whom are not stationary for the most part of a year.

I think Ashina whom is on here is semi-nomadic, meaning her tribe goes into the mountains during the summer.



Well I can understand the sedantery nations and their point of view ,kozmology ,the way how they connect themselves to universe so I flatly say:yes I am nomadic even Ottomans forced nomadic tribes to settle places
There are reasons for that force settlement ,mostly they were sent to newly conqured lands as an empire policy ,nomadic tribes were difficult to tax or control (allied with Ilkhaneds-Tamerlane against Ottoman for instance) ,sedantery folk-"yatuqs" and nomads "yörüks" were not getting on well, one group needs land for farming, other needs for herding ,causing lots of problems..so on..

Anyway I am really not in need to prove my roots to you and I dont care seriously ..i just answered you because I newly saw your answer about dna test .
I am not interested in those tests ,because it's against my animistic nomadic beliefs .
I don't sense hostility but you are annoying ,It's my cultural heritage ,my treasure. .it's my right to be proud of it. Its not coming from history books I have grandfathers ,uncles ,and a family history .

Your attitute, i find quite disrespectful.I don't want to discuss with you anymore.

If you were to challenge someone whom say that these pictures is a good representation of modern day Norway and our culture:

http://www.stovnerporten.no/illustra_a/tidemand.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6K1FeJFEfV4/TUFkNEi2NMI/AAAAAAAAABE/NdJBqQp0c7s/s1600/ung_elsk.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_g4zkGA--0Jo/S2dHWwludMI/AAAAAAAAAA8/wgklFsCznr8/s400/Paa+fjellets+topp+!l.jpg

Would you not think they were wrong?
Well to me your claim is very similar, and rooted in the same ideals of a ethnic nationalism on which your nation is founded (see: Romantic nationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romantic_nationalism)), you claim to belong to a way of life that is all but vanished from your part of the world, and you romanticize it as the optimal pureness of your ancestry, fused with religious and cultural notions that are absent from your peoples modern history. Now, i could ignore it as merely fantasy, much like i try my best to do with Norwegians who cling onto some part of their heritage and idolize it into something it is not and have never been, but since i have studied Middle eastern history at great lengths i feel should speak up, so that ignorant observers on the forum do not fall into your "reality" and think this is how modern Turkish people live or behave.

Now this is not meant to be offensive, and i am not trying to attack your person/identity, but to disprove and challenge your claims, and to clarify, i do it not because i give you any more attention then i would any other, and i try my best to be objective and respectful, which is hard given the sensitivity of the topic at hand, therefore i apologise if you feel hurt by my words, it is not my intent.

[sevruk]

http://cs5978.userapi.com/u13340865/57129265/x_a86d667b.jpg
http://cs317625.userapi.com/v317625185/4829/LmNgSZpPBxs.jpg
http://cs5793.userapi.com/u7752886/144644088/x_9a610621.jpg
http://cs9389.userapi.com/u5704283/-6/x_51517288.jpg
http://cs5498.userapi.com/u5551212/147290950/x_02fbff9f.jpg
http://cs411526.userapi.com/v411526126/26a2/uHdkMyt4BBo.jpg
http://cs308124.userapi.com/v308124328/19ab/Rd3Fg6m8OzY.jpg
http://cs11207.userapi.com/u139169359/-6/x_2ce5cc3c.jpg
http://cs316328.userapi.com/v316328277/2477/fxba9uysxNo.jpg
http://cs10389.userapi.com/u12863467/-6/x_6810e5f2.jpg
http://cs10113.userapi.com/u79444162/-6/x_801db48b.jpg

[evon]

Where do you find these pictures, some seem highly private :P haha..

[sevruk]

Where do you find these pictures, some seem highly private :P haha..

Russian social network vkontakte.ru (vk.com) (analogue of Facebook)

[beaver]

Tatars behaived as brothers in the Soviet Arm - Slavics (+Tatars + Balts) against Caucasians in fights in caserns.

[evon]

Russian social network vkontakte.ru (vk.com) (analogue of Facebook)

And you have no scruples in post such private pictures?

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

I think my english dont let me explain what I mean by nomadic. People may change lifestlyes but it takes three generations or more for people to adopt properly..In our case changing to village life from nomadic life ,later from village to city was too fast compared to real sedantery folk who has been living in cities for hundreds or thousand years .
So a Chinese ,or Greek would be different from someone who recently became a sedantary villager and has spent only one generation in city .
I hope it gives a clue what I mean by nomadic. I understand difference between them, but its subjective personal experience so i cant transfer my experience by mere words.

[beaver]

I think my english dont let me explain what I mean by nomadic.
:) :) TA has members with worse English. I understand (I hope) some your points about nomadic.

So a Chinese ,or Greek would be different from someone who recently became a sedantary villager and has spent only one generation in city

[evon]

I think my english dont let me explain what I mean by nomadic. People may change lifestlyes but it takes three generations or more for people to adopt properly..In our case changing to village life from nomadic life ,later from village to city was too fast compared to real sedantery folk who has been living in cities for hundreds or thousand years .
So a Chinese ,or Greek would be different from someone who recently became a sedantary villager and has spent only one generation in city .
I hope it gives a clue what I mean by nomadic. I understand difference between them, but its subjective personal experience so i cant transfer my experience by mere words.

The term you are looking for is Urbanized, Most of the world did not become Urbanized until the last 100-50 years, my own country did not really urbanize until the 60's onwards, i myself am a first generation city dweller, my ancestry is from rural areas, as an example my grandmother lived a very poor childhood without have access to any of our modern day comforts, they did not even have proper shoes and such, my mother was also born in the same village ect.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

The term you are looking for is Urbanized, Most of the world did not become Urbanized until the last 100-50 years, my own country did not really urbanize until the 60's onwards, i myself am a first generation city dweller, my ancestry is from rural areas, as an example my grandmother lived a very poor childhood without have access to any of our modern day comforts, they did not even have proper shoes and such, my mother was also born in the same village ect.

No it is not..I use nomadic on purpose..It is related with my non humancentric asian culture and my connection to Mother Earth."Urbanised" is a modern word has no deep meaning and connection with my ancestors culture.

My culture is based on earth, your western culture is based on human made institutions ,words and spaculation.I feel myself like plant cultivated in a petri cup away from it's natural ground in western culture. Uprooted.
My nation is a skymore tree,its huge and old. Can't be put into a artificial fabricated soil in a petri.I am a branch of that tree. I need my roots ,my roots needs earth. I hope it explains.

Thank you for conversation.

[evon]

No it is not..I use nomadic on purpose..It is related with my non humancentric asian culture and my connection to Mother Earth."Urbanised" is a modern word has no deep meaning and connection with my ancestors culture.

My culture is based on earth, your western culture is based on human made institutions ,words and spaculation.I feel myself like plant cultivated in a petri cup away from it's natural ground in western culture. Uprooted.
My nation is a skymore tree,its huge and old. Can't be put into a artificial fabricated soil in a petri.I am a branch of that tree. I need my roots ,my roots needs earth. I hope it explains.

Thank you for conversation.

I think you are talking about a religious world-view here, i dont think using the term nomadic in English is fitting if you want people to understand what you mean, and you know, using terms such as western versus Asian is highly flawed and dear i say over simplified, it sounds allot like the old Orientalist views in the early 1800's.

But i think i got the picture..

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Nothing is good enough for you but this is the best explanation of my FEELINGS in a foreign language.I think that must be the limit of questioning my identity for the sake of argument.These argumantative style may be a nice intellectual exercise for you, but for me it is highly emotional and personal so may be it's time to stop .I am not enjoying at all.

[evon]

Nothing is good enough for you but this is the best explanation of my FEELINGS in a foreign language.I think that must be the limit of questioning my identity for the sake of argument.These argumantative style may be a nice intellectual exercise for you, but for me it is highly emotional and personal so may be it's time to stop .I am not enjoying at all.

I am not an native English speaker either ;) I am sorry it caused you so much discomfort, as i said before, it was not my intent to cause harm :puppy_dp:

Yes you are right, i enjoy academic arguments, its part of my profession, i think i might rub the strictness of my profession onto other people whom are not of the same profession, which might make me seem mean and picky, but again, its not my intent...

anyways, i will leave it at that, have a good weekend:)

[Olika]

http://cs304705.userapi.com/v304705777/3051/tpCjvgUJBO8.jpg
http://cs9938.userapi.com/u32001495/-6/z_f1378f7e.jpg
http://cs10218.userapi.com/u103283340/-6/z_8bd7efd5.jpg
http://cs5358.userapi.com/u5737589/-6/z_139ec49f.jpg
http://cs9609.userapi.com/u1186655/-6/x_de8a7e6c.jpg
http://cs406518.userapi.com/v406518758/41fb/uKi00rpwuQI.jpg
http://cs403922.userapi.com/v403922655/2561/yMAiHQqjUbM.jpg
http://cs304808.userapi.com/v304808726/492c/BAy8JNTeOcY.jpg
http://cs9714.userapi.com/u7918720/117154689/z_247d8307.jpg
http://cs11127.userapi.com/u11822749/124953398/y_a92cf813.jpg

[StonyArabia]

They are basically Mongolozied Slavs, this what they look like.

[beaver]

They are basically Mongolozied Slavs, this what they look like.
Slavs slavsized everything on their way - one way road. If you can see Erzya with his name - he is 100% Erzya. If a Tatar consider himself as a Tatar - he is a Tatar without Russian admixes. There can be Russians with Tatar admixe.

[Veneda]

Polish Tatars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Jeliaszewicz.jpg

http://www.forinpol.pl/miszka_tatar.jpg

http://www.infotuba.pl/upload/article/8051.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Bronson_1973.jpg

http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/4/9125/z9125464X.jpg

http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1378/825699634_46be464fe9.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/2a9vdip.jpg

http://d.naszemiasto.pl/k/r/2c/89/4bcc41422ac90_o.jpg

http://img.interia.pl/wiadomosci/nimg/x/y/Ksiaze_Karol_polskich_4000827.jpg

http://img.interia.pl/wiadomosci/nimg/n/k/Ksiaze_Karol_polskich_4000806.jpg

http://www.tatarzy.pl/upload/news/warsztaty071104.jpg

http://www.tatarzy.pl/upload/news/kown.jpg

http://s.v3.tvp.pl/images/1/1/d/uid_11d456bf7730df4cea539bd2ba3d7db11290703684578_ width_700_play_0_pos_3_gs_0.jpg

http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/5/10597/z10597595Q,Swieto-Ofiarowania--czyli-Kurban-Bajram--Meczet-w.jpg

http://www.emito.net/files/emage/muzu_manin_tatar_0001146477_d.jpg

[Sultan Suleiman]

They are basically Mongolozied Slavs, this what they look like.

No they look like Mordid :D

[StonyArabia]

Slavs slavsized everything on their way - one way road. If you can see Erzya with his name - he is 100% Erzya. If a Tatar consider himself as a Tatar - he is a Tatar without Russian admixes. There can be Russians with Tatar admixe.

That's true. However the ancestors of the Tatars were not Turks, especially those in Kazan, they were called by Arab writers as Squiballah or Slavs. They only became Tatars when they mixed with the Kipchaks and Mongols during the Mongol empire. Yes just as there some Russians with Caucasian admix especially Cossacks.

[Azalea]

Not totally true, CircassianWine. It's true that they were called 'Saqaliba' by the Arabs, however, Saqaliba was just the Arab term for 'Kipchak'. Saqaliba doesn't mean Slav but 'white' or 'fair haired', exactly what Kipchak means. We know from the Kipchaks that they introduced themselves as the 'fair haired (Turks)' to the people they came in contact with. So the Russians called them Polevts, Cuman etc. and the Arabs called them 'Saqaliba'. Since Saqaliba was also used for Slavs, people wrongly assume that the Volgaic Turkic people were Slavs. However, by the time Arabs started using Saqaliba for the Kipchaks, they were already using 'Rus' for the Slavs.

[Onur]

They are basically Mongolozied Slavs, this what they look like.
You are saying this because you keep seeing Russified Tatars whom you consider them as slavs and when you see the Tatars this time, you think like they are mongolized slavs. In fact, the people pictured in this thread are just Tatars and the slavs you see before are just russified Tatars.

Didn't you know that there are more than 10 million russified Tatars in Russia, speaking Russian only and pretending to be slavs?


They only became Tatars when they mixed with the Kipchaks and Mongols during the Mongol empire.
You are wrong again. Kypchak peoples was always Turks and spoke Turkic. Mongol empire created in 13th century but we have a Latin-Cuman Turkic dictionary written by European christian missioners in 12th century named as "Codex Cumanicus".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Cumanicus


So, Kypchak Turks was speaking a highly developed Turkic language even before 12th century because that dictionary has over 5000 words, riddles, expressions and more. This is quite comprehensive for 12th century standards. For example, there was even no such a thing as Russian language or Russians existed back then while Kypchaks had an advance Turkic language with a rich literature.

[Hurrem sultana]

Didn't you know that there are more than 10 million russified Tatars in Russia, speaking Russian only and pretending to be slavs?


They pretend,or they feel slavic? 2 different things

[Onur]

They pretend,or they feel slavic? 2 different things
some just pretends and the rest really feels as such.

More than 200 years of Russian Tsarist subjugation and 90 years of communist oppression on top of that, usually causes such symptoms. I am even surprised that they still have memories of their true identity today.

[beaver]

more than 10 million russified Tatars in Russia
Fuck. There are many Russians with Tatar influence. Also there are nobles like Rakhmaninov etc I can find 100 examples.

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

Tatars behaived as brothers in the Soviet Arm - Slavics (+Tatars + Balts) against Caucasians in fights in caserns.

:):) I have ADHD and slight dislexia ,but you are not perfect either

[Austrvegr]

For example, there was even no such a thing as Russian language or Russians existed back then while Kypchaks had an advance Turkic language with a rich literature.

Good joke.

[sevruk]

del

[sevruk]

Didn't you know that there are more than 10 million russified Tatars in Russia, speaking Russian only and pretending to be slavs?


:picard1:


Lol. There is not more than 7 million Tatars.
They also live better than most other Turkic peoples.

[Onur]

Good joke.
Then show me a single historical record mentioning Russians or a piece of document with Russian language before 11th century. Go ahead, i am waiting, will check this thread in daily basis for your response.

BUT you cant because it doesn't exists. There was no such a thing as Russians or Russian language back then because you are the latest invented nation in Eurasia after christianization. There is not even single trace of Russian people or civilization before your conversion to christianity.

On the other hand, Tatars had their own culture, advanced language with rich literature and a civilization of their own with self-administration, centuries earlier than the invention of Russians.



Lol. There is not more than 7 million Tatars.
They also live better than most other Turkic peoples.
Yes, there are only 7 million Tatars today because more than 10 million of them has been Russified like i said above and lets not forget the Tatar expulsions during the destruction of Crimean Khaganate and ofc during the communist era.

[sevruk]

Then show me a single historical record mentioning Russians or a piece of document with Russian language before 11th century. Go ahead, i am waiting, will check this thread in daily basis for your response.

BUT you cant because it doesn't exists. There was no such a thing as Russians or Russian language back then because you are the latest invented nation in Eurasia after christianization. There is not even single trace of Russian people or civilization before your conversion to christianity.

On the other hand, Tatars had their own culture, advanced language with rich literature and a civilization of their own with self-administration, centuries earlier than the invention of Russians.



I advise to read Primary Chronicle, before writing such nonsense



Yes, there are only 7 million Tatars today because more than 10 million of them has been Russified like i said above and lets not forget the Tatar expulsions during the destruction of Crimean Khaganate and ofc during the communist era.
Bring evidence that once existed over 10 million Tatars, who were then Russified. I'm waiting.

I think you the Turks have hard batthurt because you are constantly sucking in Tsarist Russia

[Il Principe]

The destruction of the slave-trading Crimean Khanate was entirely justified. So was Stalin's deportation of these parasitic Turks.

[evon]

The destruction of the slave-trading Crimean Khanate was entirely justified. So was Stalin's deportation of these parasitic Turks.

Tatars are not Turks :P

[Austrvegr]

Then show me a single historical record mentioning Russians or a piece of document with Russian language before 11th century. Go ahead, i am waiting, will check this thread in daily basis for your response.


Sure, as soon as you give me examples of "rich Tatar literature" before the 11th centuty.

[Pecheneg]

--

[Onur]

Sure, as soon as you give me examples of "rich Tatar literature" before the 11th centuty.
I meant the general common Turkic literature because it`s wouldn't be fair to do distinction between the Turks as early as 11th century. There was only two type of Turks back then as Kypchak and Oghuz but they were still living side by side anyway in 11th century but soon to be separated laters.

[Austrvegr]

I meant the general common Turkic literature because it`s wouldn't be fair to do distinction between the Turks as early as 11th century. There was only two type of Turks back then as Kypchak and Oghuz but they were still living side by side anyway in 11th century but soon to be separated laters.

Turkics were separated many centuries before the 11th century. In the 11th century what is now "Tatarstan" was populated by Volga Bulgars who were vastly different from the Kypchak or Oghuz Turkics.

Besides, Tatars back then were Mongolic, so only a retard could claim like you did that


Tatars had their own culture, advanced language with rich literature and a civilization of their own with self-administration, centuries earlier than the invention of Russians.

[sevruk]

a lie - the second name of the Turks

[Pecheneg]

where the fuck are my previous posts?



Turkics were separated many centuries before the 11th century. In the 11th century what is now "Tatarstan" was populated by Volga Bulgars who were vastly different from the Kypchak or Oghuz Turkics.

They weren't vastly different, cut the bullshit. Stop trying to slavicize/iranicize them. They were not iranic nor slavic but Turkic.
Present-day Kazan Tatars are mix of Volga Bulgars & Kypchak/Kumans (they were both Turkic anyway). Their Oghur Turkic language has transformed into Kypchak Turkic because of invading Kypchaks during the 13th century.




a lie - the second name of the Turks
says the idiot who has nothing to say about history. Leave the thread if you have nothing better to say.

[Onur]

Turkics were separated many centuries before the 11th century. In the 11th century what is now "Tatarstan" was populated by Volga Bulgars who were vastly different from the Kypchak or Oghuz Turkics.

Besides, Tatars back then were Mongolic, so only a retard could claim like you did that
Cut your bullshit about Tatars supposedly being mongols.

Your people has been invented by the christian missioners from Constantinople and your Russia has been created after that. You have no traceable history before christianity and you speak the slavic Bulgarian language created by Cyril&Methodious in Balkans.


So, i am still waiting for you to show me a proof of your "advanced" Russian civilization and language before 11th century. Prove me the existence of the term Russia before that time.

[Austrvegr]

They weren't vastly different, cut the bullshit. Stop trying to slavicize/iranicize them. They were not iranic nor slavic but Turkic.

Yes, Volga Bulgars were Turkic speaking but their language (and also way of life, religion, etc.) was vastly different from that of Kipchaks.


Present-day Kazan Tatars are mix of Volga Bulgars & Kypchak/Kumans (they were both Turkic anyway). Their Oghur Turkic language has transformed into Kypchak Turkic because of invading Kypchaks during the 13th century.

There was no invasion of Kipchaks into Volga Bulgaria during the 13th century. Volga Bulgars shifted to the Kipchak language while they were ruled by the Golden Horde, where Kipchak was the lingua franca.

Anyway, neither Oghur Volga Bulgars, nor Oghuz Kipchaks, nor Mongolic Tatars had "rich literature" before the 11th century.

[Austrvegr]

Cut your bullshit about Tatars supposedly being mongols.

The original Tatars were one of the Mongolic tribes. That is why Europeans called Mongols Tatars. Then the name became to mean Turkic subjects of Mongols as the latter were gradually Turkicized.

[evon]

The original Tatars were one of the Mongolic tribes. That is why Europeans called Mongols Tatars. Then the name became to mean Turkic subjects of Mongols as the latter were gradually Turkicized.



The name Tatar as used by Europeans was at times used in reference to Tartarus (Greek "Hel" for the lack of a better term), but generally it seems it was a term given to followers of the Mongolian horde in general, there was a tribe of Turkic-Mongol speaking peoples (because we simply do not know which tibe spoke which language, they also intermarried so that complicates things further) in what is today eastern Mongolia prior to Chingiz khans rise to power, but the tribe was virtually exterminated during the tribal wars that lead to the creation of the Mongol empire, although we know many individuals from this tribe became part of the horde.

I dont think the term Tatar was used by the early Turkic speaking peoples who lived in Europe prior to the Mongol horde, and the usage of the Name Tatar today seems somewhat like the term gypsy, which was given to Roma by an English scholar if i remember correctly, which was in relation to them supposedly coming from Egypt (which we now know to be false), i would prefer if we found a better term then Tatar, but i suspect it will be hard to go back in history looking for a better one, since these tribes were not really good at keeping records of anyhting they did, so we rely on outside sources, mainly European, Chinese and Arab. By the time of Timur the lame, the term was used for Turkic-Mongol speaking peoples living in various locations in Eurasia, but it was not intertwined with the term Turk, as is specially clear when one looks at the records covering Timurs meeting with the Ottomans (Bayazid I) ect..

[Onur]

Evon, regardless of distinctions or namings created at later times like Bulgar, Tatar, Oghuz etc., these people were calling each other as Turks, nothing else.

We can see that from the letter exchanges between Timur and Bayazit as you mentioned. For example, Timur was accusing Bayazit by going against the Turkic tradition and trying to humiliate him because he was employing Serbian christian soldiers in his ranks.