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View Full Version : H mtdna comes from Iberia



Prisoner Of Ice
08-15-2014, 11:59 AM
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/08/mtdna-from-chalcolithic-iberia-el_15.html

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-93eDyixN9EA/U-1Gz9SiGAI/AAAAAAAAJr8/9NIXL6ngYw8/s1600/journal.pone.0105105.g002.png

It's funny to me that the data clearly shows H peaks in Iberia even back in neolithic. So if this 'elite dominance' stuff is true then the y-dna moves around separate from the mtdna, which implies by their own logic that H DID come from Iberia and has ALWAYS been highest there. All the other cultures obviously have it to a lesser degree, so I don't know how much more wrapped up this can be - and as usual, I was right all along. And for the same reason - I pointed out before that it was too low in frequency in the places in the east it had been found for it to somehow grow to such a large frequency. The frequency should always REDUCE for mtdna as mixing occors and NOT increase! It's utterly illogical to think that can possibly happen.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/04/mtdna-haplogroup-h-and-origin-of.html

This other one doesn't have the same amount of data but the analysis is good and shows that indeed H spread west not the other way around.

Damiăo de Góis
08-15-2014, 12:17 PM
Would be interesting if they specified subclades. In any case, i find the lack of J in Northern Portugal surprising.

Grace O'Malley
08-15-2014, 12:20 PM
Me and Alex want to know where J comes from?

Kale
08-15-2014, 04:10 PM
We have a couple of HV/R0 in paleolithic times (Spain, Italy)...it was probably a coastal culture early on (thus most remains are underwater now) but migrated inwards after the neolithic.

Prisoner Of Ice
08-15-2014, 06:40 PM
J mtdna is probably what came with neolithic farmers, but I am not certain of that. The huge proportion in portugal of H compared to U with the same smattering of everything else is also is telling.

Prisoner Of Ice
03-02-2015, 03:01 AM
H mtdna comes from iberia but r1b y-dna supposedly does not? DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Black Wolf
03-02-2015, 03:09 AM
I doubt that H itself originated in Iberia. Certain subclades may have but the whole haplogroup no.

Prisoner Of Ice
03-02-2015, 03:14 AM
I doubt that H itself originated in Iberia. Certain subclades may have but the whole haplogroup no.

You smoking crack or something? H shows continuity going back in Iberia for almost 10k years, in the earliest eneolithic farmers. At this time there's relatively little H in any other neolithic site (or other site of any kind). It pretty much had to have originated there.

Artek
03-02-2015, 08:25 AM
H mtdna comes from iberia but r1b y-dna supposedly does not? DOES NOT COMPUTE.
Of course R1b does not. It came from the East, carrying ANE admixture (as R1a did as well). It's all pretty consistent with Mal'ta boy who was a reference for ANE admixture and carried R* himself.

Although H is still a mystery,for some part it was introduced by farmers but it doesn't explain elevated frequencies in modern populations across the whole Europe.So I guess that H rised in numbers in Bronze Age and Iron Age.

Antimage
03-02-2015, 08:28 AM
iberian origins of mtebids basquegurian brotherhood

Hungarian_master
03-02-2015, 08:32 AM
iberian origins of mtebids basquegurian brotherhood

There's another similar phenotype, which typical among Bascue people, Baskid:
http://i.imgur.com/W8jqOnZ.png

Antimage
03-02-2015, 08:33 AM
There's another similar phenotype, which typical in Bascue people, Baskid:
http://i.imgur.com/W8jqOnZ.png

egyébként csak vicceltem,de köszi :D

Prisoner Of Ice
03-02-2015, 09:19 AM
Of course R1b does not. It came from the East, carrying ANE admixture (as R1a did as well). It's all pretty consistent with Mal'ta boy who was a reference for ANE admixture and carried R* himself.

Although H is still a mystery,for some part it was introduced by farmers but it doesn't explain elevated frequencies in modern populations across the whole Europe.So I guess that H rised in numbers in Bronze Age and Iron Age.

So the y-dna comes from the east but the mtdna comes from the west? And the original pairings of y-dna to mtdna are completely wiped away? There is no problem here?

Artek
03-02-2015, 12:00 PM
So the y-dna comes from the east but the mtdna comes from the west? And the original pairings of y-dna to mtdna are completely wiped away? There is no problem here?
mtDNA came from various sources. Incoming Indo-Europeans had women with them but also took women from "Old Europe" and assimilated some portion of males in a degree depending on a region (more in southern regions, that were more populous or at somewhat isolated places, like mountains). That's why modern Indo-Europeans are shifted.

Pairings are wiped away. If they ever existed (well, they did in mesolithic and early neolithic), they completely ceased to exist since Bronze Age onwards.

Jana
03-02-2015, 12:26 PM
According to Eupedia, not all of H subclades are of proto-Iberian, neolithic origin.

Read this: '' Ohter H subclades were also probably found among Mesolithic or Late Upper Paleolithic Europeans based on their exclusive presence in Europe today. This could be the case of haplogroups H10, H11, H17, H45, as well as many minor subclades for which too little data is available at the moment, but that seem to be exclusively European. H10 and H11 have a stronger presence in Eastern and Central Europe and would have re-expanded from the northern Black Sea region rather than from Southwest Europe after the LGM.''

Artek
03-02-2015, 12:52 PM
According to Eupedia, not all of H subclades are of proto-Iberian, neolithic origin.
The problem is, that Maciamo is basing on modern distribution. After studying many theses that show terrible lack of continuity in so many places, I wouldn't be so sure.

The only certain mesolithic H is from Karelia. And even this H is from a timeframe, when farming was already in Europe. Poor Gravettian samples have to be retested, because they can be either U or HV basing on scarcity of mutations that were obtained.

Black Wolf
03-02-2015, 09:17 PM
You smoking crack or something? H shows continuity going back in Iberia for almost 10k years, in the earliest eneolithic farmers. At this time there's relatively little H in any other neolithic site (or other site of any kind). It pretty much had to have originated there.

:picard2:...That still does snot mean it originated there! Where is your source that H existed 10k years ago in Iberia? If you are talking abut the Hervella paper from 2012 then yes some of those samples look to be H but that does not mean that it originated there. There are numerous H subclades in the near East as well that look to be very old.

Prisoner Of Ice
03-03-2015, 09:51 AM
:picard2:...That still does snot mean it originated there! Where is your source that H existed 10k years ago in Iberia? If you are talking abut the Hervella paper from 2012 then yes some of those samples look to be H but that does not mean that it originated there. There are numerous H subclades in the near East as well that look to be very old.

Did you even read the post???? The study shows that Iberia has been full of H mtdna since at least 10k years ago. There's also magadalenian H found as well, which is even older. There's no possible conclusion at this point except that this is where it was at the end of the ice age and it spread out from there.

It can't have come with any neolithic invasion, it was already there before the start of the eneolithic! Another origin is technically possible but extremely unlikely, with no evidence to back it up. There's more indirect evidence anyway since very very old HSV has been found in europe as early as 28k years ago.

Black Wolf
03-03-2015, 10:16 AM
Did you even read the post???? The study shows that Iberia has been full of H mtdna since at least 10k years ago. There's also magadalenian H found as well, which is even older. There's no possible conclusion at this point except that this is where it was at the end of the ice age and it spread out from there.

It can't have come with any neolithic invasion, it was already there before the start of the eneolithic! Another origin is technically possible but extremely unlikely, with no evidence to back it up. There's more indirect evidence anyway since very very old HSV has been found in europe as early as 28k years ago.

I asked for your sources yet you did not give me any. The Magadalenian H sample from the 2012 Hervella study (H7 if my memory serves me correct) is possible but not 100% confirmed yet I do not think. It should be retested. Even if that Magadalenian sample is H that still does not mean that H itself originated in Iberia.

Prisoner Of Ice
03-04-2015, 12:55 PM
I asked for your sources yet you did not give me any. The Magadalenian H sample from the 2012 Hervella study (H7 if my memory serves me correct) is possible but not 100% confirmed yet I do not think.

What do you think the source is? The study on the first post.

If you want to read about magdalenian H, go google maju's blog and read all about it.



It should be retested.

They can't ungrind a bone. I don't know why you are surprised, virtually all of the very ancient iberian and magdalenian could have been H but they did not test thoroughly supposedly due to expense. They have 28k year old HSV0 found in italy as well, and similar findings elsewhere that already made it obvious that H was always european in origin, but that doesn't fit in with many people's fantasies.

All tests are like that, I don't know why this result is suddenly less valid than all the others out there.



Even if that Magadalenian sample is H that still does not mean that H itself originated in Iberia.

Didn't read what I said I see. For all intents and purposes it is the same thing even if it didn't, it was in SW european refugeums during the ice age. But realisitically it had to have come from iberia or at least southern europe.

Linebacker
03-04-2015, 01:41 PM
We have a good percentage of H in Bulgaria as well.

It definitely does not originate from Iberia.