Civilization (Incas, Mayans, Aztecs ) and undervelopment (Mapuches). Casual for their conquest?

[Cristiano viejo]

Incas, Mayans and Aztecs were the most civilizated pre-Columbian people.
In the other hand Mapuches were the most undeveloped ones, very aggresive and uncivilized.
Is related both things for their conquest to hands of Spaniards?

[ButlerKing]

Incas, Mayans and Aztecs were the most civilizated pre-Columbian people.
In the other hand Mapuches were the most undeveloped ones, very aggresive and uncivilized.
Is related both things for their conquest to hands of Spaniards?



The Incas, Mayan, Aztecs had a very advance civilization and culture. When the Spanish arrived they were surprised by what they saw.

The Mapuches were tougher warriors though

[Cristiano viejo]

They had a very advance civilization and culture. When the Spanish arrived they were surprised by what they saw.

The Mapuches were tougher warriors though

Yes, they were. Thats my assumption, Mapuches were tougher warriors because their undervelopment and savageness, nothing to do with Aztecs, Mayans or Incas, who lived in a civilization more advanced then them.
Thats the reason why Spaniards conquered them more easily than Mapuches whom were only conquered in part.

[RMuller]

The Incas, Mayan, Aztecs had a very advance civilization and culture. When the Spanish arrived they were surprised by what they saw.

The Mapuches were tougher warriors though

The Aztecs had a warrior culture and were tough. The brutality they put on other Amerindians led to the downfall of the Aztec empire. The Spaniards found thousands of Amerindian allies ready to get revenge on the Aztecs. The Mayans were more peacefull.

[pinguino]

Yes, they were. Thats my assumption, Mapuches were tougher warriors because their undervelopment and savageness, nothing to do with Aztecs, Mayans or Incas, who lived in a civilization more advanced then them.
Thats the reason why Spaniards conquered them more easily than Mapuches whom were only conquered in part.

Mapuches didn't have a centralized government. That's the main reason they weren't easily conquered, unlike very hierarchical societies like the Incas or Aztecs. But Mapuches did have important influences from the natives of the Andes. For instance, they also had llamas, corn, potatoes, pottery and other techniques that arrived from the Central Andes. Moreover, Mapuches were farmers.

They weren't savages. They resorted to brutality after the masive invasion and brutal conquest they were suffering at the hand of criminals. That's why they killed Pedro de Valdivia, who died imploring for his life, the coward.

Another point, in the beginning of the conquest Mapuches lose most battles, but early on they captured horses and copied the strategies and tactics of the invader, and from that point there was no way Spaniards could conquer them.

A song in honor of the Mapuche warriors, which still fight against the invader.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5-xpLG1LSU

[Teyrn]

The Aztecs had a warrior culture and were tough. The brutality they put on other Amerindians led to the downfall of the Aztec empire. The Spaniards found thousands of Amerindian allies ready to get revenge on the Aztecs. The Mayans were more peacefull.

From what I've read they weren't well-liked. When Cortes et al. went after the Aztec capital they had thousands of native allies, notably from the Tlaxcala commonwealth. The 'flowery war' of the Aztecs created alot of resentment.

[Gibraltar]

The Mayans and Aztecs were bloody well but were defeated by the Spaniards
While the Spanish were defeated by the Araucanians (Mapuche) Mapuche cut their forearms, and ate roasted hearts of Spanish settlers.

[pinguino]

The Mayans and Aztecs were bloody well but were defeated by the Spaniards
While the Spanish were defeated by the Araucanians (Mapuche) Mapuche cut their forearms, and ate roasted hearts of Spanish settlers.

Mapuches also destroyed Spanish towns, and wanted to wipe out Spaniards from the country.
The eating of hearts was just a ceremonial thing to take revenge for all the suffering the invaders inflicted them.

[Teyrn]

The Mayans and Aztecs were bloody well but were defeated by the Spaniards
While the Spanish were defeated by the Araucanians (Mapuche) Mapuche cut their forearms, and ate roasted hearts of Spanish settlers.

That Spanish incorporated some Mayan city-states that bounced back from the collapse of the Mayan 'empire' but I don't think there was anything that could compare to the Aztec state.

[Immortal Technique]

Northern indians were the greates warriors,Apache were the best of all indians warriors.

[Teyrn]

Northern indians were the greates warriors,Apache were the best of all indians warriors.

Iroquois were highly feared in NE America for having a centralized government (it's called a democracy but it's not comparable imo) and the ability to put a large number of warriors into the field. The so-called Iroquois Confederacy is the oldest continuous, organized political group/government in the New World- maybe 500 to 1,000 years old or so. Some of them, more traditional, believe their Peacemaker was Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Peacemaker). Very admirable! and it's shameful to me that they were dealt with so shoddily by the U.S. early on when they could've been a strong early ally against British and French. :picard2:

[Immortal Technique]

Yes,but apache were the toughest and most experienced warriors,they were like devils for christians for white people.

[pinguino]

Iroquois were highly feared in NE America for having a centralized government (it's called a democracy but it's not comparable imo) and the ability to put a large number of warriors into the field. The so-called Iroquois Confederacy is the oldest continuous, organized political group/government in the New World- maybe 500 to 1,000 years old or so. Some of them, more traditional, believe their Peacemaker was Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Peacemaker). Very admirable! and it's shameful to me that they were dealt with so shoddily by the U.S. early on when they could've been a strong early ally against British and French. :picard2:

Do you know that Mohawks, part of the Iroqui family of nations, were also outstanding workers that helped to erect the main buildings of New York and Chicago?

[Guapo]

Do you know that Mohawks, part of the Iroqui family of nations, were also outstanding workers that helped to erect the main buildings of New York and Chicago?

http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/come%20at%20me%20bro/grand/Penguin845453.gif

[Teyrn]

Do you know that Mohawks, part of the Iroqui family of nations, were also outstanding workers that helped to erect the main buildings of New York and Chicago?

I think this was back during the Works Progress Administration days and such and earlier- public works projects used to employ Americans of all ethnicities. The late Leon Shenandoah's father helped to build local railroads if I remember some of what he narrated in a book about him I read.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/07/23/nyregion/leon-shenandoah-81-leader-of-the-iroquois-confederacy.html

[Armand_Duval]

The Incas, Mayan, Aztecs had a very advance civilization and culture. When the Spanish arrived they were surprised by what they saw.

The Mapuches were tougher warriors though

Aztecs were the toughest of them all, it took the spaniards an more than 50,000 indian allies to take them down, Tenochtitlan had to be razed to defeat them because aztecs warriors used to fight to death protecting their city.

Read my signature.

[Immortal Technique]

Apaches eat everyone.

[Guapo]

Aztecs were the toughest of them all, it took the spaniards an more than 50,000 indian allies to take them down, Tenochtitlan had to be razed to defeat them because aztecs warriors used to fight to death protecting their city.

Read my signature.
http://x1.fjcdn.com/comments/4093461+_9f5fc07a708c6be3ec599c5a006ff41d.jpg

[Guapo]

Apaches eat everyone.

http://x1.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/lt+---+How+the+penguin+felt+_62004c433d4ac51fd3931b9cc05 385aa.gif

[Armand_Duval]

Northern indians were the greates warriors,Apache were the best of all indians warriors.

Apaches deffo were among the best of the best, experts in guerilla warfare and experts in fighting and surviving in extreme conditions, nobody was as good as them in hand to hand combat with knives.

[Guapo]

Apaches deffo were among the best of the best, experts in guerilla warfare and experts in fighting and surviving in extreme conditions, nobody was as good as them in hand to hand combat with knives.

http://cdn.meme.li/instances/500x/44476709.jpg

[Immortal Technique]

Apaches deffo were among the best of the best, experts in guerilla warfare and experts in fighting and surviving in extreme conditions, nobody was as good as them in hand to hand combat with knives.

What do you think about Navajos?

[Teyrn]

Aztecs were the toughest of them all, it took the spaniards an more than 50,000 indian allies to take them down, Tenochtitlan had to be razed to defeat them because aztecs warriors used to fight to death protecting their city.

Read my signature.

http://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/images/iroquois-beaver-wars.jpg

Iroquois were the Aztecs of North America and they lasted longer as an organized polity- especially after they gained access to firearms. They were masterful skirmishers. Ever seen the movie Last of the Mohicans? Kind of romanticized but it displays how the natives of the time period (mid- to late- 18th century) in NE America fought. The main character, Hawkeye (played by Daniel Day-Lewis), is a white man who was adopted by natives btw.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9XCamPyKA

The earliest formation of the U.S. Army, the Legion of the United States (commanded by Mad Anthony Wayne, a hero of the War of Independence), was formed specifically to fight the Iroquois and other native tribes.

There's this modern silly idea that positive portrayls of native people by whites is some how condescending and somesuch, i.e. to create a 'noble savage.' This idea is usually put out there in the world by idiot liberals. :lol: But my goodness- talk to a native as I've done and you'll see that they're usually no different than you are. I was amazed once when I was talking to an Iroquois friend and he asked me for my advice about how to read Norse mythology. :D

[Armand_Duval]

What do you think about Navajos?

Many native tribes were known by their bravery and their warrior skills.

Navajos and comanches were also great warriors but from that geographical zone it was the apaches the most fearsome of them all.

[Immortal Technique]

Many native tribes were known by their bravery and their warrior skills.

Navajos and comanches were also great warriors but from that geographical zone it was the apaches the most fearsome of them all.

Exacto,also Sioux,Blackfeets,but Apaches were so much fearsome by US Military,other peoples,criminals,other indian tribes.

[Guapo]

Exacto,also Sioux,Blackfeets,but Apaches were so much fearsome by US Military,other peoples,criminals,other indian tribes.

http://i.imgur.com/Ow6t8.gif

[Armand_Duval]

Read the whole depiction of the aztec warror my signature talks about, quite interesting indeed!.


It is one of the most beautiful sights in the world to see them in their battle array because they keep formation wonderfully and are very handsome. Among them are extraordinary brave men who face death with absolute determination. I saw one of them defend himself courageously against two swift horses, and another against three and four, and when the Spanish horseman could not kill him one of the horsemen in desperation hurled his lance, which the Indian caught in the air, and fought with him for more than an hour, until two foot soldiers approached and wounded him with two or three arrows. He turned on one of the soldiers but the other grasped him from behind and stabbed him. During combat they sing and dance and sometimes give the wildest shouts and whistles imaginable, especially when they know they have the advantage. Anyone facing them for the first can be terrified by their screams and their ferocity.[26]

[Armand_Duval]

http://cdn.meme.li/instances/500x/44476709.jpg

The Mayas actually destroyed themselves in their own wars, there were a series of wars between several of the Maya City-State, by the time the Spaniards got to the new world the Maya Splendor was all gone.

[Armand_Duval]

http://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/images/iroquois-beaver-wars.jpg

Iroquois were the Aztecs of North America and they lasted longer as an organized polity- especially after they gained access to firearms. They were masterful skirmishers. Ever seen the movie Last of the Mohicans? Kind of romanticized but it displays how the natives of the time period (mid- to late- 18th century) in NE America fought. The main character, Hawkeye (played by Daniel Day-Lewis), is a white man who was adopted by natives btw.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9XCamPyKA

The earliest formation of the U.S. Army, the Legion of the United States (commanded by Mad Anthony Wayne, a hero of the War of Independence), was formed specifically to fight the Iroquois and other native tribes.

There's this modern silly idea that positive portrayls of native people by whites is some how condescending and somesuch, i.e. to create a 'noble savage.' This idea is usually put out there in the world by idiot liberals. :lol: But my goodness- talk to a native as I've done and you'll see that they're usually no different than you are. I was amazed once when I was talking to an Iroquois friend and he asked me for my advice about how to read Norse mythology. :D



I really love that move, one of my fave's actually and I speccially like that fighting sequence, very good indeed.


I also love Apocalypto I think it is a very good movie despite of having been critiziced by the "indigenistas", the recreation of the warriors is quiet good, the performance of the tws main Maya villains is wonderful, they even get you to fee the fear.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2oN36VnaNQ

Min 4.40

[pinguino]

Iroquois were the Aztecs of North America and they lasted longer as an organized polity- especially after they gained access to firearms. They were masterful skirmishers. Ever seen the movie Last of the Mohicans? Kind of romanticized but it displays how the natives of the time period (mid- to late- 18th century) in NE America fought. The main character, Hawkeye (played by Daniel Day-Lewis), is a white man who was adopted by natives btw.


The earliest formation of the U.S. Army, the Legion of the United States (commanded by Mad Anthony Wayne, a hero of the War of Independence), was formed specifically to fight the Iroquois and other native tribes.

There's this modern silly idea that positive portrayls of native people by whites is some how condescending and somesuch, i.e. to create a 'noble savage.' This idea is usually put out there in the world by idiot liberals. :lol: But my goodness- talk to a native as I've done and you'll see that they're usually no different than you are. I was amazed once when I was talking to an Iroquois friend and he asked me for my advice about how to read Norse mythology. :D

Iroquois have an importance of theirs own. They are, perhaps, the most advanced people in pre-Colombian Americas in terms of political development. They had both a democracy and a federal system in place, something unknown outside theirs territory by the time. There are evidence that the Iroquois federation somehow influenced colonial American political though. Besides, many traditions that later was adopted by the European populations, come through the Iroquois, like canoing, tomahawks, mapple syrup and lacroise, among others.

[pinguino]

With respect to movies about the ancient natives of Eastern North America, I prefer "New World", because it is wonderful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFkyAD9gS6g

[blogen]

What is the developed civilization? The civilization is a depersonalized complexity of the social network, the legal regime and the economic system. There is only two option: this complexity exist (civilization) or not (feudal cultures). And the conquerors' development level is irrelevant, since civilized conquerors are barbarians like the feudal conquerors. Barbarians for the conquered bastards. Alexander the Great and the Macedonian hordes were the savage Mongols for the Persians for example. And what the Spanish conqistadors did in America was clear savage behavior. But now, the descendants of this awful barbarians call their ancestor's victims a barbarian...

But yes, there are differences in technological level between the civilizations. Particularly between the distant civilizations before the age of the exploration. Basically the Bronze age America faced with the post-Iron age Europe when the conquistadors arrived into the Indian coasts. This was extremly unequal fight.

[pinguino]

...And what the Spanish conqistadors did in America was clear savage behavior. But now, the descendants of this awful barbarians call their ancestor's victims a barbarian...

What else should be call them? Not because we descend partially from Spaniards we should be accomplices of the conquistador criminals.

[blogen]

What else should be call them? Not because we descend partially from Spaniards we should be accomplices of the conquistador criminals.

They defeated the conquistadors and successfully resisted until the 19th century, so these tribes were very succesful barbarians.

[Isleño]

Incas, Mayans and Aztecs were the most civilizated pre-Columbian people.
In the other hand Mapuches were the most undeveloped ones, very aggresive and uncivilized.
Is related both things for their conquest to hands of Spaniards?Yes, the Aztecs, Incas and Mayans had the greatest civilizations in the Americas. Mapuches were underdeveloped yes. Much more like the indigenous peoples of North America. When the Spanish arrived, they were shocked to see such great civilizations among those they considered to be savages. Though not as technologically advanced as was found in Spain, they were still great civilizations with great knowledges. This is mainly characteristic of the main three you described in the OP, but also of some lesser tribes. But there were also underdeveloped more savage tribes as well. Many that were nomads also. Some were peaceful and some were warring tribes. Native Americans were warring between each other before the Conquistadors arrived.

As for the Spanish conquest, the Conquistadors were small in number but very powerful, but even then, they did not defeat the indigenous peoples without some help. The help came in the form of unexpected biological unfamliarity of European disease as well as rival indigenous tribes helping the Conquistadors. Native Americans did not practice animal husbandry and because of this, they contracted disease that their immunizations could not defend. Of course they already had disease among their populations before the Spanish arrived, but their bodies had immunities to these diseases and did not have immunity against small pox. Africans that were brought already had immunity from such diseases like small pox because they practiced animal husbandry. This one factor wiped out most of the Amerindians that perished. Of those that did not perish from disease, they were met with war from Conquistadors and their rival indigenous neighbors that joined the Spanish to defeat them.

North America had a similar story. Disease ravaged them and the United States government warred against them until they were small and weak and many were put on reservations.

[Isleño]

The Mayas actually destroyed themselves in their own wars, there were a series of wars between several of the Maya City-State, by the time the Spaniards got to the new world the Maya Splendor was all gone.

This is a truth not many know about :)

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

The mapuche were never defeated by the spanish.

[Isleño]

What else should be call them? Not because we descend partially from Spaniards we should be accomplices of the conquistador criminals.
Actually most descendants of Conquistadors are Latin Americans, not even modern Spaniards. But don't worry, I'm sure I have some descent from them probably, because the Canary Islands was the first colony of the Spanish crown. So I'm sure just like you, I have both ancestry from Conquistadors and non-Conquistador Spanish. But if I am descended from any, I'm not responsible for their wrongdoings.

[Isleño]

With respect to movies about the ancient natives of Eastern North America, I prefer "New World", because it is wonderful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFkyAD9gS6g
I like the movie Apocalypto about Amerindian life before the arrival of the Conquistadors.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngWBddVNVZs

[pinguino]

I like the movie Apocalypto about Amerindian life before the arrival of the Conquistadors.


I don't. Apocalypto is just BS, a very biased Catholic propaganda. Oh yes... According to Gibson the continent was saved by Catholic priests!!! Give me a break.