Finns are Germanic race and not any Finno ugric or Uralic

[ButlerKing]

Look at the Y-DNA of Finns and more importantly their mtDNA. Finns absolutely must accept they were Germanic people or Scandinavian who had their language replaced by N male mediated migrating people

Y-DNA I1a of Finns, especially West Finns it averages 40% and even 56% in one province

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~villandra/McKinstry/I2b1/haplogroupI1.gif


Look at their mtDNA, they share at least 80-90% similarity with Scandinavians ( except for mtDNA W which is found in small frequencies in Estonians, Latvians, Belorussian )

mtDNA H , Ub51, U , V ( all which are found in Scandinavian people )

http://atlantisinireland.com/DNA/Europeernas_DNA_files/image092.png

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Everyone in europe no doubt had way more of those clades. I have V myself and am not germanic.

[ButlerKing]

Everyone in europe no doubt had way more of those clades. I have V myself and am not germanic.


Yes but the proportion of Finns mtDNA haplogroup don't match neither the Saami or other Finno ugric tribes but more to people of Scandinavian

[mikhail]

No they aren't.

[Ctwentysevenj]

I believe they mainly belong to the Finno-Urgic group of people.

[ButlerKing]

I believe they mainly belong to the Finno-Urgic group of people.


They cluster with the Swedes, Norwegian, Danish.

They may share only Y-DNA partially with the Germanics of Scandinavians but they share almost the same mtDNA similarity.

[ButlerKing]

No they aren't.

They are predominately Germanic people with different degrees of Uralic admixture.

[Jusarius]

ButlerKing, your assumption based on mtDNA frequencies has no basis. Why do you assume that Finns got their mt-haplogroup distribution from Scandinavians/Germanics as all Northern Europeans are quite similar to each others in that regard? Both Y-HG I and mt-HG U5b1 are mesolithic European haplogroups and the latter is more common in Finland than in Scandinavia, why do you automatically claim that it's a proof of the Scandinavian origins of the Finns. Ridiculous.

Both Scandinavians and Finns share an old genetic root as a remnant of mesolithic hunter-gatherers that inhabited the whole Fennoscandia. Finland has been inhabited for at least 8 000 years. Later, Finland has had migration waves from Germanic people that were genetically more similar to today's Swedes than today's Finns but it didn't turn Finns into "genetic Swedes".

[Jusarius]

They are predominately Germanic people with different degrees of Uralic admixture.The haplogroups you have mentioned are not "Germanic". Most of them were already common in Europe before even proto-Germanic was born.

[ButlerKing]

ButlerKing, your assumption based on mtDNA frequencies has no basis. Why do you assume that Finns got their mt-haplogroup distribution from Scandinavians/Germanics as all Northern Europeans are quite similar to each others in that regard? Both Y-HG I and mt-HG U5b1 are mesolithic European haplogroups and the latter is more common in Finland than in Scandinavia, why do you automatically claim that it's a proof of the Scandinavian origins of the Finns. Ridiculous.

Both Scandinavians and Finns share an old genetic root as a remnant of mesolithic hunter-gatherers that inhabited the whole Fennoscandia. Later, Finland has had migration waves from Germanic people that were genetically more similar to today's Swedes than today's Finns but it didn't turn Finns into "genetic Swedes".

Which is my point, Finns are in no way pure Uralic or even part Uralic, I believe Finns are 4/5 Germanic and only 1/5 Uralic. Why not? look at the geographic distribution and look at the mtDNA haplogroups. You Finns are obviously not related maternally with the Saami but mostly with the Germanics. Haplogroup I in the west Finns ( 40-56% ) is more common than N, and even in Central and East Finland is 19 - 29% I1a. And now look at the mtDNA similarity, 80-90% can be found among the Germanics.

[ButlerKing]

The haplogroups you have mentioned are not "Germanic". Most of them were already common in Europe before even proto-Germanic was born.

Is most common in the Scandinavians who speak Germanic languages.

Anyway, Germanic or not, Haplogroup I is in no way related with Uralic speakers.

[Jusarius]

Which is my point that Finns are in no way pure Uralic or even part Uralic, I believe Finns are 4/5 Germanic and only 1/5 Uralic. Why not? look at the geographic distribution and look at the mtDNA haplogroups. You Finns are obviously not related maternally with the Saami but mostly with the Germanics. Haplogroup I in the west Finns ( 40-56% ) is more common than N, and even in Central and East Finland is 19 - 29% I1a. And now look at the mtDNA similarity, which 80-90% of it can be found among the Germanics.Well, that only means that Finns are a typical North(eastern) population. Most similarity with the Scandinavians comes from a common hunter-gatherer root, not Scandinavian migration into Finland. Similarly I could say that Scandinavians are Finns that got some Middle Eastern farmer genes later.

Autosomally we definitely aren't close to today's Uralic populations in Siberia and neither are the Balts who also have a very high frequency of N1c1. We are not 4/5 Germanic but more like 4/5 ancient North European - just like the Scandinavians are.

[Jusarius]

Is most common in the Scandinavians who speak Germanic languages.It's not Germanic, it was present all over Europe before any Germanics even existed.


Anyway, Germanic or not, Haplogroup I is in no way related with Uralic speakers.No one has claimed so. The options are not Germanic or Uralic. The right one is a population that spoke some paleo-European language(s).

[ButlerKing]

Well, that only means that Finns are a typical North(eastern) population. Most similarity with the Scandinavians comes from a common hunter-gatherer root, not Scandinavian migration into Finland. Similarly I could say that Scandinavians are Finns that got some Middle Eastern farmer genes later.

Autosomally we definitely aren't close to today's Uralic populations in Siberia and neither are the Balts who also have a very high frequency of N1c1. We are not 4/5 Germanic but more like 4/5 ancient North European - just like the Scandinavians are.

Yes you are ancient North Europeans autosomally,

The Uralic admixture however is a mixture of European and Siberian Mongoloid.

[ButlerKing]

It's not Germanic, it was present all over Europe before any Germanics even existed.

No one has claimed so. The options are not Germanic or Uralic. The right one is a population that spoke some paleo-European language(s).

Why does I1a peak so high only in North Germanic speakers? ( except for Finns )

http://www.essential-humanities.net/img/history/germanic-language-family-map.png

[Jusarius]

Yes you are ancient North Europeans autosomally,

The Uralic admixture however is a mixture of European and Siberian Mongoloid.No one knows how mongoloid these people were that brought the Uralic language in Finland. They were probably more similar to today's Komis and Maris than some Evenkis. East Uralic tribes have later assimilated a lot of mongoloid Siberian people. You can't say whether the proto-Uralic speakers were mongoloid or not. We don't know.

[Jusarius]

Why does I1a peak so high only in North Germanic speakers? ( except for Finns )

http://www.essential-humanities.net/img/history/germanic-language-family-map.pngDue to the founder effect which may have been caused by Germanic speakers. That doesn't however mean that all Europeans (including Finns) got their I1a from the Germanics because it's found all over Europe and was the most common HG in mesolithic European males. You can say it's most common among North Germanic speakers today but it doesn't make it a Germanic marker everywhere.

[ButlerKing]

No one knows how mongoloid these people were that brought the Uralic language in Finland. They were probably more similar to today's Komis and Maris than some Evenkis. East Uralic tribes have later assimilated a lot of mongoloid Siberian people. You can't say whether the proto-Uralic speakers were mongoloid or not. We don't know.

But we have proof that Finns are 5.5% to 12% Mongoloid/Siberian. Others shows Finns as 7% Northeast Asian.

Anyway it's very clear that Finns are very related with the other countries in their west and south.

[ButlerKing]

Due to the founder effect which may have been caused by Germanic speakers. That doesn't however mean that all Europeans (including Finns) got their I1a from the Germanics because it's found all over Europe and was the most common HG in mesolithic European males. You can say it's most common among North Germanic speakers today but it doesn't make it a Germanic marker everywhere.

I though I1a was associated with the spread of Vikings and settlements, raids in different century in all of europe


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Viking_Expansion.svg/1280px-Viking_Expansion.svg.png

[Jusarius]

I though I1a was associated with the spread of Vikings and settlements, raids in different century in all of europe


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Viking_Expansion.svg/1280px-Viking_Expansion.svg.pngDefinitely not in Finland

[Jusarius]

But we have proof that Finns are 5.5% to 12% Mongoloid/Siberian. Others shows Finns as 7% Northeast Asian.

Anyway it's very clear that Finns are very related with the other countries in their west and south.Finns share 5-10% with today's Siberian populations. That doesn't automatically mean mongoloid admixture. Finns have negligible amount of East Asian admixture.

[ButlerKing]

Finns share 5-10% with today's Siberian populations. That doesn't automatically mean mongoloid admixture. Finns have negligible amount of East Asian admixture.

But Siberian component always peaks 100% in very ultra mongoloid Siberians. Every population who I seen had higher Siberian admixture always look more Mongoloid than those with less Siberian admixture.

[Dombra]

Finns and Scandinavians are of the same pre-Germanic Nordic stock. It was when Germanics and Uralics arrived to their respective areas when some differences took place but they are mostly the same

[Jaska]

Which is my point, Finns are in no way pure Uralic or even part Uralic, I believe Finns are 4/5 Germanic and only 1/5 Uralic. Why not? look at the geographic distribution and look at the mtDNA haplogroups. You Finns are obviously not related maternally with the Saami but mostly with the Germanics. Haplogroup I in the west Finns ( 40-56% ) is more common than N, and even in Central and East Finland is 19 - 29% I1a. And now look at the mtDNA similarity, 80-90% can be found among the Germanics.
There is no point to use the linguistic labels like Germanic or Finno-Ugric when talking about genes. Populations tend to share a lot of their genes with their neighbouring peoples. West Finns are closer to Swedes than Austrians, so what?

Besides, Finns are not one population but many.
http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/SevenFinnish.xps

[Smaug]

Finns are Mongols, speacially Dombra. :laugh:

[arcticwolf]

BK, why not stick to something you know first hand, so you can be a bit factual, like ...... Punjab? :laugh: