Guess that haplogroup

[paksaltopam]

My dad FINALLY agreed to do DNA testing. Just drove to Connecticut to drop it off since stupid NY doesn't let you do 23andme.

So guess what haplogroup he will be in for both y-DNA and mtDNA. Direct paternal line is from Bornholm, Denmark. Direct maternal line is the Lemko ethnic group of carpatho-rusyns in south east Poland between Ukraine and Slovakia.

[Jackson]

New results are always interesting, congratulations on convincing your dad. :P

I'm going to be biased and put in a vote for I1 on the paternal side, and apparently Lemkos have a very high frequency of mtDNA I so that's a fair guess.

[Dombra]

Hope for a I1!

[paksaltopam]

I'm hoping for I for both! So glad I didn't have to scrape his cheek while he was sleeping.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I and V

[cally]

I1 and U4.

[Gaston]

I'll be less creative: R1b for the y-dna and a kind of H mtdna.

[paksaltopam]

I'll be less creative: R1b for the y-dna and a kind of H mtdna.

That's what I'm afraid of lol. I was convinced I was gonna be H and was gonna be disappointed, but was pleasantly surprised when I turned up X2f. But none of my 900 relatives on 23andme are X2f.

[Artek]

I don't know the y-chromosomal data of Bornholmers but I hearten for an R1a! And some kind of U for mtDNA. Most likely combination would be I1 and H, though.

[Insuperable]

R1b for Y-dna and U5 for mtdna.

[paksaltopam]

I don't know the y-chromosomal data of Bornholmers but I hearten for an R1a! And some kind of U for mtDNA. Most likely combination would be I1 and H, though.

R1a1a!

[Artek]

R1a1a!
Yeah :D. Sadly that 23andme doesn't test y-chromosomal markers but I guess your father belongs to Z284 branch. Can you see which SNPs were tested? Check for rs17316771 . If it was found, result should be "G->A". And that's an instruction how to do this: http://blog.kittycooper.com/2014/02/how-to-find-what-y-snps-are-tested-at-23andme/

[paksaltopam]

Yeah :D. Sadly that 23andme doesn't test y-chromosomal markers but I guess your father belongs to Z284 branch. Can you see which SNPs were tested? Check for rs17316771 . If it was found, result should be "G->A". And that's an instruction how to do this: http://blog.kittycooper.com/2014/02/how-to-find-what-y-snps-are-tested-at-23andme/
I don't see it :-\

[Artek]

I don't see it :-\
Can you use this tool? http://www.y-str.org/2014/04/23andme-to-ysnps.html . You can then send me converted list, maybe I will be able to write something more about an R1a of your father.

[Black Wolf]

Congrats on the results. :)

[Sawolainen]

Yeah :D. Sadly that 23andme doesn't test y-chromosomal markers but I guess your father belongs to Z284 branch. Can you see which SNPs were tested? Check for rs17316771 . If it was found, result should be "G->A". And that's an instruction how to do this: http://blog.kittycooper.com/2014/02/how-to-find-what-y-snps-are-tested-at-23andme/

I doubt everyone wants to be associated with squatty, swarthy and dumb ball-headed polacks.

[Artek]

I doubt everyone wants to be associated with squatty, swarthy and dumb ball-headed polacks.
Immensely poor trolling, because Z284 derives from a Scando branch of CWC. Also I'm neither swarthy nor squatty or ball-headed, savolaxian mongrel.

[Sawolainen]

Immensely poor trolling, because Z284 derives from a Scando branch of CWC. Also I'm neither swarthy nor squatty or ball-headed, savolaxian mongrel.

Seriously, who are you calling a mongrel? Even amongst the most Northeastern Finns, whose haplogroup in 8 out of 10 cases, is N1c1, the anthropological features are more Nordic/Germanic than anywhere in Poland.

Here is a link to KALPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KalPa) , an ice hockey team from Northern Savonia, where 80% of the men are carriers of N1c1. Click on the names of the players to view the photos. Pituus means height and paino the weight of the players.
http://liiga.fi/joukkueet/kalpa/

I'm not trolling, on the contrary, i'm one of many readers here who are getting sick and tired of the "über alles” attitude of Polish nationalists like yourself, who keep burping PIE this and CW that - pseudoscience and myths in context to R1a. It's hilarious that you guys claim to be purest descendants of the Corded Ware people - whose racial type was Nordid i.e. the prominent type of modern day Scandinavians and Finns - when the stark reality is that the regions where R1a is dominant, the swarthy, squat, bowling ball-headed physical type is overwhelmingly predominant e.g. Poland, Hungary, Austria, Belarus. Even the Polish anthropologist Czekanowski classified the Polish nation as predominantly of the Lapponoid type (wyzynno laponoidalna), which in accordance with his taxonomy was a branch of the Alpine race. Despite the so called "CW culture" encompassing parts of Poland, very few Poles today exhibit the anthropological traits associated with the people who gave rise to the said culture.

Since you are a self-professed geneticist, you should be familiar with "Polako's" research. Despite the minute amounts of Siberian admixture in Finns - which Poles are lacking - they are a more European people than Poles, in fact the two nations with the most N1c1 are also the most European. Now who is the Mongrel lol?

Who's the most European of us all?

Lithuanians 77%
Finns 74%
Belorussians 70%
Swedes 69%
Norwegians 68%
Kargopol Russians 68%
Russians 68%
Poles 68%
Erzya 66%
Ukrainians 66%
Moksha 66%
Orcadians 63%
HapMap Utah Americans (CEU) 63%
Irish 63%
British 62%
http://bga101.blogspot.se/2012/04/so-whos-most-european-of-us-all.html

[Artek]

Differentiate between autosomal genetics that has decisive role in look and straight paternal line, various processes that shape it's frequency. Although Finns are substantially Nordoid (they are also substantially Eastbaltid and Cromagnoid) and they may be autosomally close to what is called a CWC genome(but not necessarilly!) - there are few issues here.

First, I find it very unlikely that N1c played any significant role in Corded Ware/Battle-Axe horizon. R1a perfectly fits with distribution of clades, age estimations and aDNA(Eulau, most likely R1a-CTS4385*).
N1c has relatively recent age estimations, progenitor for most N1c's from Lithuania and Latvia lived around 0 AD. Whereas R1a-Z280 that most likely made up a Northeastern CWC arose around 3000 B.C.

Second thing - that's what defines a Nordid is a light pigmentation, lepptorrhiny, leptoprosopic face and at least mesocephal skull, isn't it? Plus a high vault that is a characteristic of a "Corded type" though I don't entirely agree with that - Corded people still had variance among them. I have it all except light hair pigment, mine have darkened with age.

What's really worth noticing - we don't even have a pigmentation data for CWC people! We can't really say if they were predominantly Nordoid. All we have are mesocephal-dolichocephal skulls(with some brachycephal people as a part of variance). Types with such characteristics are also seen among early medieval Slavs. Modern Slavs are brachycephalised but does it mean that they undergone a substantial genetic change? No way, cranial index is plastic as shown by long-term study on Croatian medicine students.

Finally, this "Europeanness" that you provided me with, is an old, outdated data. It doesn't even reflect a similarity to ancient genome of a Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. In any case, it doesn't define a similarity with Corded Ware People, because their genomes are still under research or review.

[Harkonnen]

Finally, this "Europeanness" that you provided me with, is an old, outdated data. It doesn't even reflect a similarity to ancient genome of a Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. In any case, it doesn't define a similarity with Corded Ware People, because their genomes are still under research or review.


Obviously in a whole genowide direct IBD comparison Finns would appear even more similar to ancient genomes than whatever ADMIXTURE gives us. I agree with you though, that it is extremely likely that Poles show much higher similarity with Corded Ware genomes than what Finns do.

[Artek]

Obviously in a whole genowide direct IBD comparison Finns would appear even more similar to ancient genomes than whatever ADMIXTURE gives us. I agree with you though, that it is extremely likely that Poles show much higher similarity with Corded Ware genomes than what Finns do.
I don't really care what will be the similarity level of Poles/Finns versus CWC. Just this man is annoyingly butthurt from the very beginning and gives no reliable data beside anthropology based on plastic cranial index and unknown pigmentation, without advanced craniometrics. Just setting aside "Polack" character of an R1a, what is just totally ridiculous :D

[Sawolainen]

First, I find it very unlikely that N1c played any significant role in Corded Ware/Battle-Axe horizon. R1a perfectly fits with distribution of clades, age estimations and aDNA(Eulau, most likely R1a-CTS4385*).
N1c has relatively recent age estimations, progenitor for most N1c's from Lithuania and Latvia lived around 0 AD. Whereas R1a-Z280 that most likely made up a Northeastern CWC arose around 3000 B.C.You really are the master of drivel! Keep the pseudoscience coming fool! The history of the CWC and N1c1 is very much intertwined.

"Haplogroup N1c1 is associated with the Comb Ceramic culture (4200-2000 BCE), which evolved into Finnic and pre-Baltic people.The Indo-European Corded Ware culture (3200-1800 BCE) progressively took over the Baltic region and southern Finland from 2,500 BCE. The merger of the two gave rise to the hybrid Kiukainen culture (2300-1500 BCE). Modern Baltic people have a roughly equal proportion of haplogroup N1c1 and R1a, resulting from this merger of pre-Uralic and pre-Balto-Slavic cultures."
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/N1c1/default.aspx?section=results


Second thing - that's what defines a Nordid is a light pigmentation, lepptorrhiny, leptoprosopic face and at least mesocephal skull, isn't it? Plus a high vault that is a characteristic of a "Corded type" though I don't entirely agree with that - Corded people still had variance among them. I have it all except light hair pigment, mine have darkened with age.

Correct, yet only a minority of Poles - and other R1a people I named in my previous post - exhibit the mentioned physical characteristics. You might be one of the few,


Modern Slavs are brachycephalised but does it mean that they undergone a substantial genetic change? No way, cranial index is plastic as shown by long-term study on Croatian medicine students.

LOL what utter rubbish! No way will a pug (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/08/19/1408410600205_wps_1_18_Mar_2005_Pug_with_a_Sa.jpg) ever begin to resemble a borzoi (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Kufa_charta_-_borzoja.jpg), nor a round-skulled Alpinid (http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/p14f1.jpg) a Nordid (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe273.jpg), without generations of selection and interbreeding between the two types!


SecondFinally, this "Europeanness" that you provided me with, is an old, outdated data. It doesn't even reflect a similarity to ancient genome of a Mesolithic hunter-gatherers.
It's not outdated data and very much includes the genome of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdGhPS3pMaTZwUUhWbTd0S0hnVkM5M 3c#gid=0


In any case, it doesn't define a similarity with Corded Ware People, because their genomes are still under research or review.
Then quit rambling like a clown about Poles and R1a being a major player in context of R1a. FFS keep it real and let science prove what the CW people were and were not!

[Artek]

You started by saying

You really are the master of drivel! Keep the pseudoscience coming fool! The history of the CWC and N1c1 is very much intertwined.

And then you served with text straight from very scientific, non-drivel Eupedia.

"Haplogroup N1c1 is associated with the Comb Ceramic culture (4200-2000 BCE), which evolved into Finnic and pre-Baltic people.The Indo-European Corded Ware culture (3200-1800 BCE) progressively took over the Baltic region and southern Finland from 2,500 BCE. The merger of the two gave rise to the hybrid Kiukainen culture (2300-1500 BCE). Modern Baltic people have a roughly equal proportion of haplogroup N1c1 and R1a, resulting from this merger of pre-Uralic and pre-Balto-Slavic cultures."
Although I agree that R1a intermingled with N1c in modern Estonia and southern Finland, I can't agree with reference to "modern Baltic people".
Most of Lithuanian and Latvian N1c comes from a single event that took place around the breakthrough of Eras. Estonia, where R1a is also significant but N1c is much older, is still speaking with Finnish language.





LOL what utter rubbish! No way will a pug (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/08/19/1408410600205_wps_1_18_Mar_2005_Pug_with_a_Sa.jpg) ever begin to resemble a borzoi (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Kufa_charta_-_borzoja.jpg), nor a round-skulled Alpinid (http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/p14f1.jpg) a Nordid (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe273.jpg), without generations of selection and interbreeding between the two types!
You can't compare differences concerning mostly cranial index (width to length ratio) with taking pug and borzoi as an example. Also, how would you explain difference between modern and early-medieval Slavs? Was there any significant genetic drift?





It's not outdated data and very much includes the genome of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdGhPS3pMaTZwUUhWbTd0S0hnVkM5M 3c#gid=0
This one is probably the best you can find: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8pm8sVcHqceiNFJMO082kxaBF5ePr4__bAK05VQRFw/edit?pli=1#gid=62882571


Then quit rambling like a clown about Poles and R1a being a major player in context of R1a.
Poles are descended in significant part from Slavs, Balts and Ostgermanics to lower extent. Slavs and Balts descend from a cultures deriving from CWC. It doesn't mean that Poles are true heirs of CWC or something.

FFS keep it real and let science prove what the CW people were and were not!
I have moderate standing on CWC's identity and I now wait for genomes and additional uniparental data. That was you who started an attack, using words like "dumb" etc.

[Harkonnen]

And then you served with text straight from very scientific, non-drivel Eupedia.


Eupedia is drivel, but if you thought that the particular text he quoted is drivel you obviously have no clue about N1c1. For years the situation presented there has been considered consensus, however lately there have been some new findings on the L550 subclade which somewhat challenge this idea. Interestingly considering the other heated discussion going on right now, if the L550 clade is considerably younger than previously thought in the Baltics, then the Rurikid etc N1c1 etc can not be anything other than Finnic in origin. However, I would not claim anything certain about this issue at this point, but rather remain conservative and wait.


,500 BCE. The merger of the two gave rise to the hybrid Kiukainen culture (2300-1500 BCE). Mo


Sawolainen,

Obviously the Corded Warians of Kiukainen Culture might have been more Finnish like genetically, but you have to remember CWC is rather large cultural area, and Kiukainen is situated in it's absolute periphery, so there is absolutely no reason to presume total genetic similarity, to the original CWCs further southwest.

[Artek]

Eupedia is drivel, but if you thought that the particular text he quoted is drivel you obviously have no clue about N1c1. For years the situation presented there has been considered consensus, however lately there have been some new findings on the L550 subclade which somewhat challenge this idea.
L550 is indeed discussive, especially concerning identity of pre-Rurikids and Rurikids who are all L1025-. Character of L1025 is interesting, because it shows a pattern that doesn't apply to Baltic R1a(conquest?).

Interestingly considering the other heated discussion going on right now, if the L550 clade is considerably younger than previously thought in the Baltics, then the Rurikid etc N1c1 etc can not be anything other than Finnic in origin. However, I would not claim anything certain about this issue at this point, but rather remain conservative and wait.
I agree, that's the most careful option.