Turkmen K15 Spreadsheet DNA = Inaccurate and flawed

[ButlerKing]

This is why I dislike spreedsheet DNA and promote people to stop using it ( but for some reason almost like 90% of the members here still uses it ).

It is extremely inaccurate.

K15 spreadsheet shows result for Turkmen:

North Sea: 4%
Atlantic: 3%
Baltic: 3%
Eastern Euro: 10%
West Med: 2%
West Asian: 28%
East Med: 19%
Red sea: 3%
South Asian: 14%
Southeast Asian: 5%
Siberian: 7%
Amerindian: 1%


So they are 14% South Asian and only 13% Mongoloid ( actually 12% if the 1% Amerindian could even be noise ).

Why is it so Inaccurate and flawed? here's why


1) The problem is that it uses the average number even it makes only a minority 10% of the population.

2) For example if 5 out of 50 samples had the same number of 13% Mongoloid, and 5 samples being the highest than that's the average number even if the other 45 samples ( 90% ) are different. You can have 2nd average number of 4 samples being 30% mongoloid or 2 samples being 50% mongoloid but won't be included and mentioned in the spreadsheet.



I have never seen a South Asian looking Turkmen before ( 14% South Asian ? ), I only ever seen dark skinned Iranian.

No way in hell that someone with 13% Mongoloid can produce so many Uzbek/Kazakh looking Turkmen


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6XNnfi0qrkU/TRpOGCE8G0I/AAAAAAAACK8/mag-Kjl-DHM/s640/TUMENHBRS_image0017.jpg
http://www.advantour.com/img/turkmenistan/sights/dashowuz.jpg

[ButlerKing]

This is why Turks keep making the dumb mistakes like posting this same source again and again

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=40073&d=1384126119]

When in reality, Turkmen have 20x more higher DNA variance than Turks


Another problem is, different location have different degrees of DNA



Turkmen as shown here are from 19% to 56% Mongoloid where as South Asian admixture is only 1.5% to 5.8%.


http://oi62.tinypic.com/vfjvco.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/2nsqvbt.png

[ButlerKing]

My opinion. Based from the google pictures


Phenotype-wise


10% Look more Mongoloid like Kazakhs/Kyrgyz

http://www.tourstouzbekistan.com/uploads/albums/photogallery/turkmen-children.jpg

25% Look more inbetween ( Mongoloid/Caucasoid ) like Uzbeks/Uyghurs


http://www.turkicpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/turkmen1.jpg


30% look like a slightly to somewhat more mongoloid Tajiks but heavily predominately Caucasian

http://centralasiaonline.com/shared/images/2011/03/04/TMChannel2.jpg

35% look like pure Iranian, Caucasus


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ce/Sevil_Abdullayeva,_Turkmen_model_and_actress.jpg

[Sky earth]

This is why I dislike spreedsheet DNA and promote people to stop using it ( but for some reason almost like 90% of the members here still uses it ).

It is extremely inaccurate.

K15 spreadsheet shows result for Turkmen:

North Sea: 4%
Atlantic: 3%
Baltic: 3%
Eastern Euro: 10%
West Med: 2%
West Asian: 28%
East Med: 19%
Red sea: 3%
South Asian: 14%
Southeast Asian: 5%
Siberian: 7%
Amerindian: 1%


So they are 14% South Asian and only 13% Mongoloid ( actually 12% if the 1% Amerindian could even be noise ).

Why is it so Inaccurate and flawed? here's why



1) The problem is that it uses the average number even it makes only a minority 10% of the population.

2) For example if 5 out of 50 samples had the same number of 13% Mongoloid, and 5 samples being the highest than that's the average number even if the other 45 samples ( 90% ) are different. You can have 2nd average number of 4 samples being 30% mongoloid or 2 samples being 50% mongoloid but won't be included and mentioned in the spreadsheet.



I have never seen a South Asian looking Turkmen before ( 14% South Asian ? ), I only ever seen dark skinned Iranian.

No way in hell that someone with 13% Mongoloid can produce so many Uzbek/Kazakh looking Turkmen


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6XNnfi0qrkU/TRpOGCE8G0I/AAAAAAAACK8/mag-Kjl-DHM/s640/TUMENHBRS_image0017.jpg
http://www.advantour.com/img/turkmenistan/sights/dashowuz.jpg


What's the probelm? That was the average genetical aDNA result of Turkmens. The Turkmens from the Lazaridi are from Afghanistan. They are more Mongoloid and less South Asian influenced than the Turkmens from Iran and Turkmenistan

[Longbowman]

Is your argument 'if they're 5% Atlantic, why don't 5% of them look British?' Because that's a terrible argument. You can't attack genetics with phenotypes. You don't seem to understand spreadsheet data at all.

[ButlerKing]

What's the probelm? That was the average genetical aDNA result of Turkmens. The Turkmens from the Lazaridi are from Afghanistan. They are more Mongoloid and less South Asian influenced than the Turkmens from Iran and Turkmenistan

But the study of Turkmen from Merv and Gonur Depe shows 19% to 56% Mongoloid DNA.


These are all Turkmen from Turkmenistan too.

http://www.unicef.org/turkmenistan/TUKA_nutrition_1.JPG
http://centralasiaonline.com/shared/images/2008/09/17/uniform.jpg
http://www.advantour.com/img/turkmenistan/littleboy.jpg
http://www.orexca.com/images/fotogallery/img_full/1321696031_4174.jpg
http://www.turkicpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/turkmen.jpg
http://yytm.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/turkmen-girls.jpg
http://www.noi.peetahvw.com/131671876_a4587d3fba.jpg
http://altaic-wiki.wikispaces.com/file/view/12332258_b880388c42.jpg/82226313/481x382/12332258_b880388c42.jpg
http://stevebailes.org/Geog/Ch18Image/37AshgabatTurkmenistanSchoolkids.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Is your argument 'if they're 5% Atlantic, why don't 5% of them look British?' Because that's a terrible argument. You can't attack genetics with phenotypes. You don't seem to understand spreadsheet data at all.

Huh? I think you miss my point. I'm saying the spreadsheet is misleading because it only shows the average number which makes a small minority of the populations genetic

5% atlantic is insignficant.

You would think is nonsense for Turkmen to be only 12% Mongoloid ( Siberian/East Asian??? ) and yet have 1/10 to 2/10 of their population look more Mongoloid than Caucasian ( and 1/3 look inbetween )

LOL even in Aydin of western Turkey have a average Mongoloid admixture of 15% but looks nothing as Mongoloid as Turkmens.


Turkish born from Aydin

Yeşim Büber (born 1977), actress
Rıdvan Dilmen, football player
Sadık Giz (1911-1979), politician
Ulaş Güler (born 1980), football player
Gökhan Kırdar (born 1970), musician and film score composer
Adnan Menderes (1899–1961), Turkish Prime Minister
Ahmet İlhan Özek (born 1988), football player
Osman Özköylü (born 1971), football player
Evren Özyiğit (born 1986), football player

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Adnan_Menderes_VI._Yasama_D%C3%B6nemi.jpg
http://www.btnet.com.tr/wp-content/uploads/x-ortam/1/184.jpg
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/_sfQdMSPsLQ/hqdefault.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/R%C4%B1dvan_Dilmen.jpg/640px-R%C4%B1dvan_Dilmen.jpg




BTW...... Western Anatolia used to be a Greek area , where as eastern anatolia was Armenia/Kurd area.

[Longbowman]

Huh? I think you miss my point. I'm saying the spreadsheet is misleading because it only shows the average number which makes a small minority of the populations genetic

5% atlantic is insignficant.

You would think is nonsense for Turkmen to be only 12% Mongoloid ( Siberian/East Asian??? ) and yet have 1/10 to 2/10 of their population look more Mongoloid than Caucasian ( and 1/3 look inbetween )

LOL even in Aydin of western Turkey have a average Mongoloid admixture of 15% but looks nothing as Mongoloid as Turkmens.

Basing your argument against actual genetic data using phenotypical anecdotes and personal observation is almost as ridiculous as claiming you're British.

[Immortal Technique]

Why do you hate turks so much?

[Longbowman]

Why do you need bring out my identity?

My personal observations is backed by multiple sources of other anthropologist observations including genetic studies. So it ain't no bluff.

How the hell can look look almost pure Mongoloid and still be only 13% ? that is why spreadsheet are useless. Even Tatars, the most white looking Turks ( although they used to be Iranic, Goths, Alans ) are 16% Mongoloid on average but the truth is it can go up as high as 70% for some Tatar subgroups or signficant minority, a substantial 1/3 can also be 25%.

Afghanistan: Past and Present - Page 70

http://bks6.books.google.co.uk/books?id=a0Mp1AHpp0gC&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=5&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE71UrZWFhd8hRBFq9hd8dHZHh9VaXCliAYTl2RAJ kC_GGXI28pzkFuTUlHAZX26i-EXpfsXB_y55nzon2YVURW5VWnnD7LtutaH8w0IWmx_1bQ5V0lW mOBLsFrioCUVqLW1EW_T3

" Turkmen are another Sunni Turkic‐speaking group whose language has close affinities with modern Turkish. They are of aquiline Mongoloid stock. "


The Nomadic Alternative: Modes and Models of Interaction

http://bks0.books.google.co.uk/books?id=JRyqfpi5BKcC&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=5&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE73eaVNlQ3KdTiliZvVb5a-A64Nd7iqxXpOriG5VUPQOcGzdHT_vi92iv6z9mToYc_znN9wRg 5Y7nWatJGcY-SmUpv5mPwLHAU51mp8f4GXX6_k0fHnmMWDSsO9AlguHn0qE3mF p

" Historical and anthropological materials show that the Turkmen were formed from the descendants of the Indo-European population merged with Mongoloid Turkic-speaking peoples (Agadzhanov 1963) "



" Turkmen exhibit a mixture of Mediterranean and Northern Mongoloid features "





Why you think that?

All I'm showing it's facts.

Sorry, cheap jab. I know you've admitted you're Punjabi now.

You keep saying 'how can this be' but DNA doesn't lie. Sorry. I don't care if everyone in the world thought they looked 100% Turkic, they're not. Empirical fact.

[ButlerKing]

Sorry, cheap jab. I know you've admitted you're Punjabi now.

You keep saying 'how can this be' but DNA doesn't lie. Sorry. I don't care if everyone in the world thought they looked 100% Turkic, they're not. Empirical fact.


DNA don't lie but it can be misinterpreted.

And this DNA spreadsheet is misinterpreted to a great extend because it doesn't shows diverse DNA samples, only a average ( minority ) number.

Turkish from Aydin are 15% Mongoloid on average and yet you don't see one Mongoloid looking Turkish ( only influence ) where as for Turkmen Mongoloid looking ones are like 10-20%


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rcdkNaYFICM/Tz1p4IcLlZI/AAAAAAAAEhs/En5H2fWIh68/s1600/ADMIXTURE+Turkish_Aydin_Ho_3.png
1 Sample 18.5% Mongoloid admixture
2 Sample 18% Mongoloid admixture
1 Sample 17% Mongoloid admixture
3 Sample 15% Mongoloid admixture


------------------------


1 Sample 13.7% Mongoloid admixture
2 Sample 13.5% Mongoloid admixture
1 Sample 12.5% Mongoloid admixture


-----------------------


1 Sample 8% Mongoloid admixture
2 Sample 3.5% Mongoloid admixture
1 Sample 2.5% Mongoloid admixture
1 Sample 2% Mongoloid admixture
1 Sample 0% Mongoloid admixture

[Longbowman]

DNA don't lie but it can be misinterpreted.

And this DNA spreadsheet is misinterpreted to a great extend because it doesn't shows diverse DNA samples, only a average ( minority ) number.

Turkish from Aydin are 15% Mongoloid on average and yet you don't see one Mongoloid looking Turkish ( only influence ) where as for Turkmen Mongoloid looking ones are like 10-20%


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rcdkNaYFICM/Tz1p4IcLlZI/AAAAAAAAEhs/En5H2fWIh68/s1600/ADMIXTURE+Turkish_Aydin_Ho_3.png
1 Sample 18.5% Mongoloid admixture
2 Sample 18% Mongoloid admixture
1 Sample 17% Mongoloid admixture
3 Sample 15% Mongoloid admixture


------------------------


1 Sample 13.7% Mongoloid admixture
2 Sample 13.5% Mongoloid admixture
1 Sample 12.5% Mongoloid admixture


-----------------------


1 Sample 8% Mongoloid admixture
2 Sample 3.5% Mongoloid admixture
1 Sample 2.5% Mongoloid admixture
1 Sample 2% Mongoloid admixture
1 Sample 0% Mongoloid admixture

I hear what you're saying but phenotypical evidence is strongly anecdotal and the difference isn't huge anyway. They're both primarily West Eurasian with a small but significant East Eurasian component that is more phenotypically significant for cultural reasons.

[ButlerKing]

I hear what you're saying but phenotypical evidence is strongly anecdotal and the difference isn't huge anyway. They're both primarily West Eurasian with a small but significant East Eurasian component that is more phenotypically significant for cultural reasons.

Turkmen have 1/5 to 1/2 East Eurasian. THAT IS A LOT

Turkish Mongoloid blood is small ( 1/20 to 1/5 ) , Turkmen have between 3x to 4x more Mongoloid admixture than Turkish people.

Turkmen are 44 - 80% West Eurasian + 20 - 55% East Eurasian + 1 - 6% South Asian.

Turkish are 95 - 77% West Eurasian + 5 - 20% East Eurasian + 1 - 5% South Asian

[Arhat]

Turkmen are very diverse people and can look purely caucasian and purely mongolic.Turkmens in turkmenistan are mostly turkized local iranic people and because of that they have not much east asian admixture compared to the original turks.But they still have more east asian ancestry than anatolian turks.