preliminary Neolithic Balkans Y-DNA results(Starcevo culture) and other/ISBA 2014 symposium

[Artek]

From Andrew Millard

International Society of Genetic Genealogy (ISOGG)

43 mins · Edited ·

I'm at the International Symposium on Biomolecular Archaeology and I thought some here would like summaries of the human DNA papers (abstracts with author details are available at https://ipna.unibas.ch/archgen/isba14/) .

Maria Spyrou presented on the 8th-10th century AD site of Venosa in southern Italy. They recovered 22 full mitogenomes representing 17 haplogroups. This is remarkably diverse, but not statistically different from modern populations from Europe, N Africa & the Near East except Algeria, Basque & Saudi Arabia. Conclusion: today's European mitochondrial diversity dates back to at least the 8th century.

Anna Szécsényi-Nagy presented data from 9 Y chromosomal samples (25 SNPs defiing major haplogroups) and 84 mitochondrial HVS-I DNA profiles from Mesolithic, Neolithic Starčevo and LBK sites (7-6th millennium BC) from Hungary and Croatia. For mtDNA the Neolithic haplogroup frequencies differ from northern European hunter gather-populations but they are similar in the spread to the northern, slightly later Linear Band Keramik sites, with slight differences in frequencies. The Y-chromosome data showed a high frequency of haplogroup G, and closest affinity to Caucasus & Sardinians in modern populations.

"Roy the slides were moving pretty quickly so my notes are incomplete. I don't think there were Mesolithic Gs. For the 7 Starcevo samples I only got as far as noting F* G2a G2a2b I2a1 before things moved on. There were others. There is a paper in press in Proceedings of the British Academy vol.198."


Helena Malmstrom reported mtDNA HVS-I sequences from Funnel Beaker (TRB) & Pitted Ware Cultures. The PWC hunter-gatheres differ in haplogroup frequency from farmers but are similar to Mesolithic huntergatherers elsewhere in Europe. The TRB farmers are similar to central European LBK farmers, but both differ from Iberian farmers. Conclusion: migration is part of Neolithisation

Karonla Kirsanow presented on the origins of depigmented skin and eyes in Europeans using samples from the Upper Palaeolithic to the Bronze Age. The data show that depigmentation alleles arose and were common but not universal well before agriculture arrived in Europe, but the eye & skin colour changes were independent as there are individuals with all possible combinations of derived/ancestral skin/eye alleles. There is a mtDNA division between east and west Europe which is also reflected in depigmentation with a higher frequency of depigmented skin in the east and depigmented eyes in the west. There were high frequencies of skin depigmentation alleles by the Bronze Age which agrees with previous identification of these markers as under recent strong selection. There is a general trend to depigmentation over time. Demographic processes must be important but it is not clear what is driving the selection of depigmentation.

ISBA 2014

ipna.unibas.ch


I decided to bold the most interesing fragments.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/Neol%C3%ADtico_en_Europa.png/800px-Neol%C3%ADtico_en_Europa.png

[Black Wolf]

Fascinating stuff thanks for sharing.

[Jackson]

Very interesting! Thanks.

[Artek]

I wonder what are those "others" and what were those "mesolithics" apart from I2a1,that is most likely. Out of 9 samples in total, we have just 4 mentioned! Still we have room for another G, another I2, maybe an EV-13(if it wasn't Cardial Ware-specific)


Also the study of Malmstrom on mtDNA sheds a light on a different maternal subset of Iberian samples, when compared to LBK and TRB. More of an H, in this case? We will see soon.


And another subject - depigmentation.

...the eye & skin colour changes were independent as there are individuals with all possible combinations of derived/ancestral skin/eye alleles.
Light skin with dark eyes and dark skin with light eyes? We have seen it before :D

There is a mtDNA division between east and west Europe which is also reflected in depigmentation with a higher frequency of depigmented skin in the east and depigmented eyes in the west
That is intriguing, because i thought there was relative uniformity within mtDNA from that period.

[Artek]

UPDATE! I have a preprint and full set of y-chromosomes
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2014/09/03/008664.full-text.pdf+html

Complete SNP profiles - 2 males from Transdanubian LBK:
-I1-M253
- G2a2b

Complete SNP profiles-7 Starcevo Culture males:
2x G2a2b-S126
1x G2a-P15
1x I2a1-P37.2
3x F*

Incomplete SNP profiles of 8 males:
Starcevo Culture:
3x G2a2b-S126
2x G2a-P15
1x I-M170

Transdanubian LBK:
1x G2a2b-S126
1x F*

[Jackson]

Very interesting stuff, glad that geographical gap has been partially filled in now.

Also finally glad to see an I1 in there, looks like some of it at least was 'picked up' by farmers in SE Europe?

[Artek]

Very interesting stuff, glad that geographical gap has been partially filled in now.

Also finally glad to see an I1 in there, looks like some of it at least was 'picked up' by farmers in SE Europe?
I think so. Of course I1 wasn't present alongside hunters-gatherers from Motala at 6000 BC(it lacked 2 or 3 SNPs) but it could've been present at 5000 BC or later as a part of Ertebolle culture or somewhere else and picked by farmers.

[Kale]

I1 was thought to only be 5,000 or so years old. I'm not sure the exact age of the example they've found, but from context it should be 7000-8000. Where does that leave the other groups?

[Artek]

I1 was thought to only be 5,000 or so years old. I'm not sure the exact age of the example they've found, but from context it should be 7000-8000. Where does that leave the other groups?
I guess that are y-STR-based estimations. SNP-based estimations are much more credible but I don't know such estimations for an I1. I1 project bases on un-professional nomenclature like "I1-AS"(like all of I1 was Anglo-Saxon, then all R1a is Slavic)

[Fire Haired]

Do you know how we could get more info from people who were there? I emailed one of the guys who worked on the pigmentation one like a month ago and got nothing back. I'm existed to learn they tested mtDNA too, and from Upper Palaeolithic-bronze age Europe in the east and west. The summary on the pigmentation results is no surprise, because we already learned this through Mesolithic and Neolithic samples. Known alleles for light skin existed in the Upper Palaeolithic but were not dominate(more like a minority) like they are today in west Eurasia meaning they probably had dark skin, and WHG were mostly blue eyed. I wish they checked for hair color to, because both the hunters and farmers seem to have been uniformly dark haired while many Europeans today have light hair.

There was probably a continuation of the same pigmentation in Europe, central Asia, and west Asia from the Upper Palaeolithic-Neolithic. ~15,000YBP mostly ANE person AG2 had rs1426654 A/A like Motala12, and ~24,000YBP ANE person MA1 had rs1426654 G/G, like LA Brana-1-Loschbour-Ajv58, meaning WHG and ANE hunters had the same alleles for skin color and that known light skin mutations go back way before the Last ice age. Europe's first farmers had the same alleles as modern west Asians, meaning west Asian's ancestors probably have had the same pigmentation going back to the begging of farming or even earlier. Light eyes could have first become popular in WHG as far back as the Last Ice age, and stayed that way for thousands and thousands of years.

It seems the first change in west Eurasian pigmentation since the Upper Palaeolithic occurred in Europe during the bronze age. Pigmentation seems to have been very selected in Europe since the Neolithic. First you have near eastern farmer light skin take over Euro hunter dark skin, which creates the type of pig we see in Sardinia and southwest Europe today. Then next the skin became even lighter, and Euro hunter blue eyes became attached to light hair which became popular and wasn't even really in the equation before, and that creates the type of pig we see in northern Europe today. I think the north Euro-type pigmentation spread by selection not population movement. The Indo Iranians and Tocherians had it even though they had a totally differnt genetic makeup than any modern northern Europeans, and a very similar genetic makeup to copper age Yamna and Catacomb people who were darker than west Asians. Proving in my opinion it's not a genetic thing it was just selected for by many differnt people.

[Fire Haired]

I think so. Of course I1 wasn't present alongside hunters-gatherers from Motala at 6000 BC(it lacked 2 or 3 SNPs) but it could've been present at 5000 BC or later as a part of Ertebolle culture or somewhere else and picked by farmers.

If I1 was in central European hunter gatherers(they're who LBK got it from) it was probably in Scandinavian hunter gatherers, because they mostly came from central Europe. Motala and PWC re just two sample sets, it was probably there somewhere. I'm not saying I1 in Scandinavia today is a stone age relic just that the lineage probably existed there at that time. Something really fucking big happened with I1 after the Neolithic, but it did exist before that.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

If I1 was in central European hunter gatherers(they're who LBK got it from) it was probably in Scandinavian hunter gatherers, because they mostly came from central Europe. Motala and PWC re just two sample sets, it was probably there somewhere. I'm not saying I1 in Scandinavia today is a stone age relic just that the lineage probably existed there at that time. Something really fucking big happened with I1 after the Neolithic, but it did exist before that.

I doubt it means that much really. Rarer types tend to trickle out of small populations and only get preserved in big ones. But it probaby means that there is just some source of I1 nearby which later expanded.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I didn't realize this is the same paper so I will stick this here and the other thread can be deleted.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/09/y-chromosomes-and-mtdna-of-early.html



Contrary to the low mtDNA diversity reported from hunter-gatherers of Central/North Europe [28–30], we identify substantially higher variability in early farming communities of the Carpathian Basin including the haplogroups N1a, T1, T2, J, K, H, HV, V, W, X, U2, U3, U4, and U5a (Table 1). Previous studies have shown that haplogroups N1a, T2, J, K, HV, V, W and X are most characteristic for the Central European LBK and have described these haplogroups as the mitochondrial ʻNeolithic packageʼ that had reached Central Europe in the 6th millennium BC [36,37]. Interestingly, most of these haplogroups show comparable frequencies between the STA, LBKT and LBK,


So first off the important thing here is that these all have some continuity for a very long time. So it's not like there is some big intrusion (say of mtdna H) which is necessary for a land route giant migration like is often theorized for the modern dominance of R1b and H in europe today. At least not in last 10k years, which means basically "never".

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_9J4rx-sCrQ/VAhQTmV53-I/AAAAAAAAJxU/3vFrwD5v4oE/s1600/mtdnachange.png

This is MTDNA changing over time.



Three STA individuals belong to the NRY haplogroup F* (M89) and two specimens can be assigned to the G2a2b (S126) haplogroup, and one each to G2a (P15) and I2a1 (P37.2) (Dataset S3, S5). The two investigated LBKT samples carry haplogroups G2a2b (S126) and I1 (M253). Furthermore, the incomplete SNP profiles of eight specimens potentially belong to the same haplogroups; STA: three G2a2b (S126), two G2a (P15), and one I (M170); LBKT: one G2a2b (S126) and one F* (M89) (Dataset S5).

I believe this is the first ancient finding of haplogroup I1 which attains a peak in modern Swedes. This might be useful to those who have tied this to Germanic migrations because of this, as it was already in Central Europe with the earliest farmers.


So like I said before...I would peg I as a farmer haplogroup, not as a hunter gatherer one. Even I1 is a farmer group, and waaaay older than previously believed, obviously. Basically once again all this evolutionary mutation rate BS is completely disproven, just as it has been for existence of blue eyes. So we can say probably the farmers had blue eyes as well, or at least some of them, since that is almost 100% the case for places with I1 y-dna. This seems to be the case with G2 as well, so no big surprises. To ME anyway!

Tons of hilarious BS has been blown out of the water by this study. Combined with the one that proves the current distribution of H is very ancient in europe, this blows away any ideas current central and western europeans don't have deep roots.



Surprisingly, Y chromosome haplogroups, such as E1b1b1 (M35), E1b1b1a1 (M78), E1b1b1b2a (M123), J2 (M172), J1 (M267), and R1b1a2 (M269), which were claimed to be associated with the Neolithic expansion [23–25], have not been found so far in the 6th millennium BC of the Carpathian Basin and Central Europe.


Not a surprise to me, these ideas have long since been debunked but this puts an end to any belief J1 or J2 come from neolithic farmers.



Intriguingly, R1a and R1b, which represent the most frequent European Y chromosome haplogroups today, have been reported from cultures that emerged in Central Europe during the 3rd/2nd millennium BC, while a basal R type has been reported from a Palaeolithic sample in Siberia [60] in agreement with a proposed Central Asian/Siberian origin of this lineage. In contrast, G2a has not been detected yet in late Neolithic cultures [42,43]. This suggests further demographic events in later Neolithic or post-Neolithic periods.


Yes, and the r1b obviously comes from the west alone with H mtdna, probably from the celtic expansions and migrations eastward.

R1a comes from the east of course and is not in any big numbers in most of europe.



Considering the entire set of 32 published NRY records available for Neolithic Europe thus far, the low paternal diversity is indeed quite remarkable: G2a is the prevailing haplogroup in the Central European and Carpathian Basin Neolithic, and in French and Iberian Neolithic datasets [36,40,41]. There are only two exceptions, namely one E1b1b (V13) [41] individual from the Avellaner cave in Spain (~5,000-4,500 BC), and two I2a [40] individuals from Treilles, France (~3,000 BC).


Probably this e1b guy traces back to 20k years ago migration from central eurasia after which most of the e1b moved down south into north africa.

[Artek]

If I1 was in central European hunter gatherers(they're who LBK got it from) it was probably in Scandinavian hunter gatherers, because they mostly came from central Europe. Motala and PWC re just two sample sets, it was probably there somewhere. I'm not saying I1 in Scandinavia today is a stone age relic just that the lineage probably existed there at that time. Something really fucking big happened with I1 after the Neolithic, but it did exist before that.
Well... as I spotted there is a little problem with I1. It's defined with a sh*tload of SNPs, as can be found here http://www.yfull.com/tree/I/ . It indicates really long bottlekneck, suggesting that at some point only one or just few very closely-related lineages survived
M253 is just one of this string of SNPs. Modern I1, even the oldest and most basal branches, seem to have other, additional portion of defining SNP's along with M253.

So Nordtvedt's calculations may indeed be accurate, concerning that they are made on modern haplotypes. And it doesn't disprove that I-M253 itself could've been all across Central and Northern Europe. It just indicates that their lineages haven't managed to survive till today.

Let's wait for some Nordvedt's words on that.

[Black Wolf]

Also interesting to note that the haplotype of the Mesolithic skeleton from the Croatian Island Korčula belongs to the mtDNA haplogroup U5b2a5. This adds yet another U5b result to the already U5b rich European Mesolithic specimens.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Poreklo has tested some Kosovo Serbs and they seem to be in vast majority G2. I'm I2c (I-M170) supposedly the first European haplogroup and originated in Europe. However mine is due to a back migration out of the Kavkaz. There is another Kosovo Serb with I2c on Poreklo, however different haplotype than mine. There is also an Albanian from Kosovo with I2c, and by 17 markers, the same minus 1 marker with this Kosovo Serb. There is also a Bulgarian with I2c, with the same haplotype as these 2.

That leaves E-V13 and R1b*, maybe these are Greek?

[Guapo]

Poreklo has tested some Kosovo Serbs and they seem to be in vast majority G2. I'm I2c (I-M170) supposedly the first European haplogroup and originated in Europe. However mine is due to a back migration out of the Kavkaz. There is another Kosovo Serb with I2c on Poreklo, however different haplotype than mine. There is also an Albanian from Kosovo with I2c, and by 17 markers, the same minus 1 marker with this Kosovo Serb. There is also a Bulgarian with I2c, with the same haplotype as these 2.

That leaves E-V13 and R1b*, maybe these are Greek?
I thought G2 was Scythian/Sarmatian which shows up in some Brits and French as well, possibly from Roman legions.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I thought G2 was Scythian/Sarmatian which shows up in some Brits and French as well, possibly from Roman legions.

I don't honestly know what it is, I thought it was Kavkazian. But Sardinians have G2 a lot, after their I2a2, and it seems ancient Balkan people had this in their majority haplogroup if this early study is to believed. In either case just like Herzegovina Serbs are almost all I2a2b, Montenegrins E-V13, Shumadijans I1 (:D), Kosovo Serbs are almost all G2.

[Guapo]

I don't honestly know what it is, I thought it was Kavkazian. But Sardinians have G2 a lot, after their I2a2, and it seems ancient Balkan people had this in their majority haplogroup if this early study is to believed. In either case just like Herzegovina Serbs are almost all I2a2b, Montenegrins E-V13, Shumadijans I1 (:D), Kosovo Serbs are almost all G2.

Interesting, I have 5 relatives on 23andme(all brothers with same surname) that are German and all of them are G2a5 :confused:

[Stefan_Dusan]

Interesting, I have 5 relatives on 23andme(all brothers with same surname) that are German and all of them are G2a5 :confused:

Yeah just like there are Ukrainians and Brits with E-V13. Loki is E-V13. One has to remember these neolithic haplogroups spread throughout Europe before modern ethnicity's or language delineations.

[cally]

G2a is neolithic Balkanic. I always thought it was associated with J2b but we don't have much of it.

[Stefan_Dusan]

G2a is neolithic Balkanic. I always thought it was associated with J2b but we don't have much of it.

This might be a good clue then afterall. If Albanians have little of it. Then maybe we can divide the neolithic populations of the Balkans, and place the Albanians correctly to their Balkan population.

[Guapo]

This might be a good clue then afterall. If Albanians have little of it. Then maybe we can divide the neolithic populations of the Balkans, and place the Albanians correctly to their Balkan population.

Out of Kosovo

[cally]

Out of Kosovo

That is your agenda..

[Guapo]

That is your agenda..

:thumbsup:

[Artek]

I thought G2 was Scythian/Sarmatian which shows up in some Brits and French as well, possibly from Roman legions.
G2a has loads of sources, starting with neolithic farmers and ending with Gypsies. I think that all major tribes and ethnicities in Europe or Caucasus carried it, more-or-less. More legible sign of Scytho-Sarmatian presence is an R1a-Z93, since it wasn't present in Europe as early as G2a and wasn't as widespread, being clearly connected with spreading indo-iranian languages. But looking at the y-dna pool of some certain Caucasian ethnicities, it was also probable that many Scytho-Sarmatians were J and some were R1b. So it was rather a mixed bunch.


This might be a good clue then afterall. If Albanians have little of it. Then maybe we can divide the neolithic populations of the Balkans, and place the Albanians correctly to their Balkan population.
Albanians are a subset of Illyrians. They already belong to the population that has changed drastically since Neolithic. Most of their major lineages(J2, R1b, E-V13) weren't even found in neolithic balkans.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Albanians are a subset of Illyrians. They already belong to the population that has changed drastically since Neolithic. Most of their major lineages(J2, R1b, E-V13) weren't even found in neolithic balkans.

Nothing is definite to be said with certainty. Even Albanians are not certain what they are which is why you constantly see them claiming mutually exclusive things like sometimes they are Illyrians, sometimes they are Thracians, sometimes they are Palesgians, and sometimes they are ancient Greeks or even antic Macedonians.

Anyways I think the study focused on regions of northern/central Balkans such as Bosnia, Serbia..... I do believe there was E-V13/J/R1b* at the time, but concentrations of it was much further south. I think Albanian haplogroups represent some northward expansion into the Balkans just as south slavic ones represent a southward expansion to the Balkans. And this is why the original haplogroups.....G2, I2a2, I2c are pretty much finished in the Balkans except for isolated populations here or there.

[Artek]

Nothing is definite to be said with certainty. Even Albanians are not certain what they are which is why you constantly see them claiming mutually exclusive things like sometimes they are Illyrians, sometimes they are Thracians, sometimes they are Palesgians, and sometimes they are ancient Greeks or even antic Macedonians.
Yes, maybe I went too far by calling them as a subset of Illyrians with such confidence, though it's likely.


Anyways I think the study focused on regions of northern/central Balkans such as Bosnia, Serbia..... I do believe there was E-V13/J/R1b* at the time, but concentrations of it was much further south.
R1b? It was likely around the Caucasus that time or somewhere else but certainly not on the way of farming expansion. EV-13, for instance, is found only among Cardial Ware people so far, so it could've been introduced by them. Of course, that more samples are needed but we would've likely seen among samples further north if it was the case. The same is for J, I don't know why people still believe that it's neolithic. Oh well, they only believe because there is no reason now for it's presence. People still have thinking based on modern distribution maps, after all these new discoveries we can actually realise that genetical landscape has changed a lot.
Just for an example - Pitted Ware hunters gatherers from Gotland (around 2800-2000BC, so not that old) were loaded with I2a1, probably like those from Motala. Now the study among Gotlanders shows 0% of it, 50% of I1 and 5,5% of I2-M223(I2b), both related distantly. Continuationists are in a lost position in most cases.


I think Albanian haplogroups represent some northward expansion into the Balkans just as south slavic ones represent a southward expansion to the Balkans. And this is why the original haplogroups.....G2, I2a2, I2c are pretty much finished in the Balkans except for isolated populations here or there.
I2a2-DIN(representing around 90% of Balkan I2 lineages in total) under M438 isn't original in Balkans, it has northern affinites. I've already written too much about it to say anything more than that.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I2a2-DIN under M438 isn't original in Balkans, it has northern affinites. I've already written too much about it to say anything more than that.

I didn't mean I2-Din but I2a2/I2a2a (don't know it's proper name, have to look up). The found in Sardinians and now in early Balkans.

[Artek]

I didn't mean I2-Din but I2a2/I2a2a (don't know it's proper name, have to look up). The found in Sardinians and now in early Balkans.
Use shorthand, Sardinian I2 is an I2-M26. Traditional names are now nonsense, because sequencing finds loads of new branches and that would require changing names all the time.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Use shorthand, Sardinian I2 is an I2-M26. Traditional names are now nonsense, because sequencing finds loads of new branches and that would require changing names all the time.

I know that, I just don't know it off top of my head, so I was too lazy to look it up.

[Artek]

I know that, I just don't know it off top of my head, so I was too lazy to look it up.
No problem. I just try to convince people to change naming habits. Of course 23andMe and it's "technology" concerning y-dna doesn't help.

[Black Wolf]

Yeah just like there are Ukrainians and Brits with E-V13. Loki is E-V13. One has to remember these neolithic haplogroups spread throughout Europe before modern ethnicity's or language delineations.

You have returned. :D

[Black Wolf]

Poreklo has tested some Kosovo Serbs and they seem to be in vast majority G2. I'm I2c (I-M170) supposedly the first European haplogroup and originated in Europe. However mine is due to a back migration out of the Kavkaz. There is another Kosovo Serb with I2c on Poreklo, however different haplotype than mine. There is also an Albanian from Kosovo with I2c, and by 17 markers, the same minus 1 marker with this Kosovo Serb. There is also a Bulgarian with I2c, with the same haplotype as these 2.

That leaves E-V13 and R1b*, maybe these are Greek?

E-V13 and R1b* in the Balkans are much older than the Greeks.

[Black Wolf]

I don't honestly know what it is, I thought it was Kavkazian. But Sardinians have G2 a lot, after their I2a2, and it seems ancient Balkan people had this in their majority haplogroup if this early study is to believed. In either case just like Herzegovina Serbs are almost all I2a2b, Montenegrins E-V13, Shumadijans I1 (:D), Kosovo Serbs are almost all G2.

There is no reason not to believe this study as it matches up with what we already know very well. This study sampled Neolithic farmer remains from Hungary and the Balkans. It has shown that Y-DNA haplogroup G2a is the dominant haplogroup among these Neolithic males and this matches up very well with the Y-DNA of the Neolithic farmers that have been tested from Germany and Spain as well. Otzi also was G2a. It is very clear now that G2a was the dominant Y-DNA haplogroup of the first farmers in Europe who ultimately had their origins in Anatolia/Near East.

[Jackson]

There is no reason not to believe this study as it matches up with what we already know very well. This study sampled Neolithic farmer remains from Hungary and the Balkans. It has shown that Y-DNA haplogroup G2a is the dominant haplogroup among these Neolithic males and this matches up very well with the Y-DNA of the Neolithic farmers that have been tested from Germany and Spain as well. Otzi also was G2a. It is very clear now that G2a was the dominant Y-DNA haplogroup of the first farmers in Europe who ultimately had their origins in Anatolia/Near East.

Oetzi and his G's, lol.

Farmers be ballin'.

[Black Wolf]

Oetzi and his G's, lol.

Farmers be ballin'.

:lol:...Farmers be ballin' and niggaz be crawlin'. :P