Origins of J2b - Indian and Balkan cluster

[Proto-Shaman]

Discuss!

Distribution of J2b:
http://priyadarshi101.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/j2b-map.gif?w=810
Source: Distribution of J2b. Family tree DNA: History Unearthed Daily, M102 Project; URL http://www.familytreedna.com/public/m102/default.aspx

Compare this mapping:
https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/7wcowmzr4040c1io/images/11-f48177e0a0.jpg

see also: http://priyadarshi101.wordpress.com/tag/indo-european/

[TIGERZZZ]

I want to know why it isn't found much in Middle East.

[Black Wolf]

J2b like it's brother clade J2a probably originated in the Near East but it never became very common there for some reason. Indeed there is a big gap between the Balkans and India when it comes to J2b which is rather mysterious yet interesting.

[Black Wolf]

Perhaps this support the idea that one clad came through the east and the other through the north, much like the indo-euro scenario of double intrusion. Highest caste indians (Vedic priests for example) have a lot of J2 along with R1a so you never know.

Well there is no doubt in my mind at all that all of the J2a in both Europe and India originated in the Near East. The same is probably true for J2b but it seems that J2b has almost disappeared from it's original homeland in the Near East. Or perhaps J2b represents and earlier expansion of J2 out from the Near East compared to J2a? Hard to say without more ancient DNA really.

[Black Wolf]

At least we know with some certainty that it came after neolithic and during bronze/iron. Was there any more J2 found in mainland europe except for that Hungarian one?

No not yet anyways. The only J2 found in pre-historic Europe so far is that Bronze Age J2a sample from Hungary.

[Demhat]

Perhaps this support the idea that one clad came through the east and the other through the north, much like the indo-euro scenario of double intrusion. Highest caste indians (Vedic priests for example) have a lot of J2 along with R1a so you never know.


The first Bronze Age sample to have been tested in Europe so far (Hungary) was J2a1. Before that there was no J2 in Europe. So indeed we have a confirmation that at least J2a was part of the Indo European expansion.

[Trojet]

From what I've read, these two clusters don't have a relation since the Neolithic. It seems like they separated somewhere in Eastern Anatolia during the Neolithic with one group heading to the Balkans and the other in South Asia. I would love to see more studies on this specific haplogroup J2B2 M241and the relation between these two clusters (Balkan and Indian), so hopefully in the near future we will have a better idea.

[jatt]

could be related of Aryan genes...indo European expansion to both india and europe

[Jackson]

could be related of Aryan genes...indo European expansion to both india and europe

In Europe it matches the area well in which proto-Greek was believed to be spoken, and apparently proto-Greek has close similarities to Vedic Sanskrit. Apparently this is due to them being comparatively close to proto-Indo-European itself. The only real connection i can think of at the moment, kinda vague though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Greek_language


The close similarities between Ancient Greek and Vedic Sanskrit suggest that both Proto-Greek and Proto-Indo-Iranian were still quite similar to late Proto-Indo-European, which would place the latter somewhere in the late 4th millennium BC.

[Trojet]

In Europe it matches the area well in which proto-Greek was believed to be spoken, and apparently proto-Greek has close similarities to Vedic Sanskrit. Apparently this is due to them being comparatively close to proto-Indo-European itself. The only real connection i can think of at the moment, kinda vague though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Greek_language

It is possible, but i doubt it. Greeks only have about 6% of J2b, while Albanians have close to 20% of J2b. And then as far as languages go, Albanian is just as old as Greek, if not older, and they are on completely different branches. Now, if the spread happened during the neolithic (one clade of j2b heading to the balkans , and the other towards India), this could match very well the spread of IE languages according to the Anatolian hypothesis, but then I'm sure other haplogroups were involved. However, according to Eupedia, J2b was the first J2 clade to enter the Balkans before the Neolithic, 10-16 kya. In this case, these two groups would've split much earlier than the Neolithic, and no connection with the Indo-Europeans.

[Jackson]

It is possible, but i doubt it. Greeks only have about 6% of J2b, while Albanians have close to 20% of J2b. And then as far as languages go, Albanian is just as old as Greek, if not older, and they are on completely different branches. Now, if the spread happened during the neolithic (one clade of j2b heading to the balkans , and the other towards India), this could match very well the spread of IE languages according to the Anatolian hypothesis, but then I'm sure other haplogroups were involved. However, according to Eupedia, J2b was the first J2 clade to enter the Balkans before the Neolithic, 10-16 kya. In this case, these two groups would've split much earlier than the Neolithic, and no connection with the Indo-Europeans.

Yeah i doubt it as well, it was just the only link that i could think of relating to Indo-Europeans.

[Era]

What's that area in green in Russia?

[Not a Cop]

What's that area in green in Russia?


Not entirely shure, but looks like Tatarstan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan) and Mordovia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordovia)

[Equilibrium]

I wonder how accurate that Eupedia map is. Here is a heatmap of the global J2b2 distribution from NatGeo's Genographic project for comparison.

Whoever merged it with a map of ancient Anatolia links the J2b2 distribution in Anatolia to Phrygian Settlements.
I'm J2b2 myself and my paternal line is from Sangarius, modern-day Sakarya, where the home of the Phrygians was located.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8388/8675629245_0f99cf87c3_o.jpg

[Trojet]

Yfull posted some age estimates for J2B2. According to them, J2B2-M241 formed 13300 ybp. The European branch L283 formed 9700 ybp. They also have age estimates for different European SNPs (very interesting), but they don't yet have any age estimates for the South Asian Z2432 branch. So if the European branch formed 9700 years ago, this seems to confirm the theory that these branches separated at least 10000 years ago, probably soon after 13300 when J2B2 was formed.
www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/

[michel]

I think that a lot of Indians look very caucasian

[Ali Pasha]

Alexander the Great fucked all Indian women, obviously.

[Drawing-slim]

Alexander the Great fucked all Indian women, obviously.most plausible theory. His army indeed bred a lot of women in that area.

[Black Wolf]

most plausible theory. His army indeed bred a lot of women in that area.

Are you serious lol?

[Black Wolf]

why wouldnt he be

sounds plausible to me

Indian J2b does not come from Alexander the Great. J2b is present in large amounts among South India tribal groups that have never really had much contact with groups from the North. The J2b in India is also likely part of a different subclade than Balkan J2b anyway.

[wvwvw]

J2b was brought to Balkans by Roma/gypsy travellers that much is obvious to me :nod :D

[Trojet]

You guys are funny lol. Here is the reality. J2b2-M241 split into two immediate subclades most likely somewhere in Anatolia early Neolithic. According to YFull, by 9700 years ago, one group defined by SNP J2b2-L283 migrated towards the Balkans, the other group defined by SNP J2b2-Z2432 migrated towards South Asia. No Alexander the Great troops carried it to India, no Gypsies carried it to the Balkans.
http://yfull.com/tree/J-M241/

[Proto-Shaman]

You guys are funny lol. Here is the reality. J2b2-M241 split into two immediate subclades most likely somewhere in Anatolia early Neolithic. According to YFull, by 9700 years ago, one group defined by SNP J2b2-L283 migrated towards the Balkans, the other group defined by SNP J2b2-Z2432 migrated towards South Asia. No Alexander the Great troops carried to India, no Gypsies carried to the Balkans.
http://yfull.com/tree/J-M241/
Thanks for clarifying! This was also what I thought.