Padanian nationalism

[Beorn]

Padanian nationalism is an ideology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology) and a regionalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regionalism_%28politics%29) movement demanding more autonomy, or even independence from Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy), for Padania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padania).
Its main proponent is the Lega Nord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lega_Nord), a federation of regional parties (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lega_Nord#National_level) of Northern Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Italy), although there are some other minor Padanian nationalist parties (such as the Lega Padana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lega_Padana) and Lega Padana Lombardia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lega_Padana_Lombardia)) and some thinkers (such as Gilberto Oneto (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gilberto_Oneto&action=edit&redlink=1), Giancarlo Pagliarini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giancarlo_Pagliarini) and late Gianfranco Miglio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianfranco_Miglio)) who are not part of Lega Nord. In 1996 in Veneto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneto) a short-lived separatist-Padanist movement was formed, the Padanian Independentist Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Padanian_Independentist_Movement&action=edit&redlink=1).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padanian_nationalism#cite_note-0)


I was wondering if Italian Apricians, or members with a degree of insight could enlighten me to this movement.

[Eldritch]

Well, visiting Palermo and Turin, you could not believe you are in the same country.

[John in Denver]

I was wondering if Italian Apricians, or members with a degree of insight could enlighten me to this movement.

SF Italia had a thread but the moderator axed it because he said it was divisive, which in one way i can understand but on the other autonomy is a healthy sign and i personally would have liked to hear both sides.

[John in Denver]

I think this poster from 2008 sums it up. I've heard the same thing from Northern Italians living in the States, basically they're complaining that they support the south, which i believe started with the newly formed global economic structure post WW2. Historically the south took care of its own needs and was economically autonomous.

The translation would be something like...

" Wake Pandano! with the Northern league against the thief in Rome"

[John in Denver]

What irks me is when so called "white nationalists" scream foul at Pandania when it wasn't too long ago Sicily wanted her independence.
And wherever one goes the complaints are the same. No one likes to get fleeced but somehow international bankers have always managed to get their way.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvatore_Giuliano

[Bard]

Can I add my opinion to this thread?
South Italy is very arretrated and there is mafia which drains all the energies and resources that North Italy sends to the south, so it's quite normal to see that many people in the north are angry and tired of seeing their tax vanished due to south italy bad situation.

Lega Nord actually is more or less a bunch of idiots but they have (very few) good ideas, a separation from the south (at least speaking about taxes and stuff like that) would help the north very much and we would get rid of the mafia problem.

Personally, I'd like to stay on their side but I can't for 2 reasons.
1-I'm not sure it's morally correct to abandon the south, I know some guys from south italy and they are ok, like many other things in the south ( a lot of good food, arts, sea...).
2-They support Berlusconi (just for interests) and I hate him.

ps: lega nord claims celtic origins for the north italians, not sure how much this is bullshit and how much is true

[Comte Arnau]

I usually support those nationalisms which make some ethnolinguistic sense and in a way, Padania would make (or have made) sense in it, if the Gallo-Italic languages had had some form of common central reference. But as far as I know, Padanian nationalism is not about close ethnolinguistic feeling, but follows other kind of 'identitarian criteria' which I don't really like or believe in. Probably because they're too dialectalized by now and much diluted into standard Italian.

But certainly a Padanian state with capital in Milan would be one of the powerful states in the South. (Well, they'd consider themselves Central, of course, like Slovenes do)

[Falkata]

I dont like this "economic nationalism" , specially when in the last century the south was richer than the north. These guys of the Lega Nord should have better memory.

[John in Denver]

Can I add my opinion to this thread?
South Italy is very arretrated and there is mafia which drains all the energies and resources that North Italy sends to the south, so it's quite normal to see that many people in the north are angry and tired of seeing their tax vanished due to south italy bad situation.

Lega Nord actually is more or less a bunch of idiots but they have (very few) good ideas, a separation from the south (at least speaking about taxes and stuff like that) would help the north very much and we would get rid of the mafia problem.

Personally, I'd like to stay on their side but I can't for 2 reasons.
1-I'm not sure it's morally correct to abandon the south, I know some guys from south italy and they are ok, like many other things in the south ( a lot of good food, arts, sea...).
2-They support Berlusconi (just for interests) and I hate him.

ps: lega nord claims celtic origins for the north italians, not sure how much this is bullshit and how much is true

I agree that Southern Italy is very tight-knit, my experiences with Italians in the New York area was the same. I remember the mafia back in the mid to late eighties when all the garbage trucks had Italian surnames and everyone seemed to be in awe of them at the time.

I really don't know how the mafia actually works. I'm well aware of their thievery, but why they do, what they do, is a question that doesn't get asked too often. Sometimes i think it's control other times i believe its wealth, it probably falls somewhere in between, but either way, the economic consolidation of all regions under marxism is a disaster for everyone in Italy. There should be regulated trade based on what regions could not produce or were in need of. If technology comes from the north then the north should control it, but that's when the problems start.

I'm in favor of the idea of Pandania for now because i believe in a confederation of independent states, which is the historic western model, why should anyone be more concerned with other states and nations that they will never see, or live in?

The Lega Nord has obviously been comprised, no surprise there, but the core is always the people, if the north wants autonomy then i think every nationalist should embrace it.

Autonomy mixed with racial awareness and pride, is more important than a failed consolidated state based solely on marxist economic and social policies.

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

I dont like this "economic nationalism" , specially when in the last century the south was richer than the north. These guys of the Lega Nord should have better memory.

So what? I mean, assuming that the vastly larger Kingdom of the Two Sicilies had been overall richer than any of the northern states before its demise when facing a wretched bunch of irregular volunteers in 1860, I honestly cannot see what's the matter.

[The Ripper]

Can I add my opinion to this thread?
South Italy is very arretrated and there is mafia which drains all the energies and resources that North Italy sends to the south, so it's quite normal to see that many people in the north are angry and tired of seeing their tax vanished due to south italy bad situation.

Lega Nord actually is more or less a bunch of idiots but they have (very few) good ideas, a separation from the south (at least speaking about taxes and stuff like that) would help the north very much and we would get rid of the mafia problem.

Personally, I'd like to stay on their side but I can't for 2 reasons.
1-I'm not sure it's morally correct to abandon the south, I know some guys from south italy and they are ok, like many other things in the south ( a lot of good food, arts, sea...).
2-They support Berlusconi (just for interests) and I hate him.

ps: lega nord claims celtic origins for the north italians, not sure how much this is bullshit and how much is true

I also have the image of Lega Nord as a bunch of "fantasy nationalists" with most obscure and repulsive ideological pinnings... Its mostly a gut feeling I've had fuelled by bits of information.

As for "white nationalism," it does not belong in Europe.

[Eins Zwei Polizei]

I also have the image of Lega Nord as a bunch of "fantasy nationalists" with most obscure and repulsive ideological pinnings...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_DyGGlXVMdOg/SQ2gWTrHzCI/AAAAAAAABKc/48O45ZTUpZs/s400/cthulhu4prez-preview1.png

_WCZNQJkV3E

No need for understanding, just enjoy the sound.

[Tyrrhenoi]

The southern-italians helped build the rich north in the 50ies - 60ies, the lega nord are a bunch of retards. Italy should try to choose a solid gouvernement who has the will to fight the mafia!

The mafia is like a multinational who makes miljards of euro's in 'profits'.
PROBLEM: money is more holey than the pope in Italy, so that's why the mafia still exists.

[Megrez]

Today, at the end of transmission of the Italian GP of F1, they exhibited the crowd of tifosi praising the Ferrari drivers in the podium. Damn, there were more flags of Lega Nord being waved above the crowd than flags of Ferrari. I think this is a sign of the growing popularity of Lega Nord.

[Comte Arnau]

Today, at the end of transmission of the Italian GP of F1, they exhibited the crowd of tifosi praising the Ferrari drivers in the podium. Damn, there were more flags of Lega Nord being waved above the crowd than flags of Ferrari. I think this is a sign of the growing popularity of Lega Nord.

LOL. I noticed that too and had also thought at the moment about commenting on it later in here. :D

Btw, sorry for those who like it, but that flag is horrible.

[Ibericus]

LOL. I noticed that too and had also thought at the moment about commenting on it later in here. :D

Btw, sorry for those who like it, but that flag is horrible.
lol, it reminds me of a marihuana

[Megrez]

LOL. I noticed that too and had also thought at the moment about commenting on it later in here. :D

Btw, sorry for those who like it, but that flag is horrible.
That symbol resembles a Cannabis lol.

[Korbis]

I usually support those nationalisms which make some ethnolinguistic sense and in a way, Padania would make (or have made) sense in it, if the Gallo-Italic languages had had some form of common central reference. But as far as I know, Padanian nationalism is not about close ethnolinguistic feeling, but follows other kind of 'identitarian criteria' which I don't really like or believe in. Probably because they're too dialectalized by now and much diluted into standard Italian.

But certainly a Padanian state with capital in Milan would be one of the powerful states in the South. (Well, they'd consider themselves Central, of course, like Slovenes do)


Like catalan separatism was not fueled too by economic interests, :rolleyes: You can´t expect everybody to be so naive to believe that its uniquely motivated for the honest and pure will to protect a culture and a language which are not really endangered...

[San Galgano]

LOL. I noticed that too and had also thought at the moment about commenting on it later in here. :D

Btw, sorry for those who like it, but that flag is horrible.

Monza is in north Italy infact.

Anyway the true Lega North flag is this one:

http://www.portalestoria.net/IMAGES%20171/bandiera_lega_lombarda.gif

[Comte Arnau]

Like catalan separatism was not fueled too by economic interests, :rolleyes:

Er... who has said it isn't too? There are in fact quite evident economic reasons to want independence for Catalonia indeed. If anything, pro-independence politicians are to blame for not enhancing that aspect. One of the peaks in the barometer of independence was some years ago, when the chaos in public transports made many non-independentists consider the practical advantages it would have.


You can´t expect everybody to be so naive to believe that its uniquely motivated for the honest and pure will to protect a culture and a language which are not really endangered...

Again, there is never only one reason to want independence. The more reasons there are, the more people who will support it. And every single language/culture in the world within a state where another ethnicity prevails is endangered. Even Catalan.

[lei.talk]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a7/Lega_poster.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lega_Nord)



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Lega_electoral_results_2009.png/200px-Lega_electoral_results_2009.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lega_Nord#National_level)

[askra]

according to me "padanian nationalism" leads by the North League is a farce

i don't see any relation from a cultural, linguistic and historical point view among northern italian regions. Liguria is total different from sud tirol, val d'aosta is different from lombardy, from emilia romagna etc.
the only relation is due to that northern italy today is economically stronger than south and central italy.

north league has ministers in the italian goverment, where there are also ex fascists and italian nationalist ministers, north league contraddictis itself constantely, its members consider padania also tuscany and marche that are part of central italy, and the autonomous regions around the alps,
look these maps:
http://www.leganord.org/ilmovimento/regioni-padania-con-abruzzo.gif
regions of italy where are located offices of North League (abruzzo and sardinia included are considered part of "Mezzogiorno"!!)

http://sardegna.blogosfere.it/images/lega%20nord-thumb.jpg
(% of votes given to North League in 2009)

North League has member from southern italy too, like the vice president of Senate that is from Apulia, the mayor of the island of Lampedusa that is the most southern municipality in italy (at the same latitude of Africa)

[Foxy]

look these maps:
http://www.leganord.org/ilmovimento/regioni-padania-con-abruzzo.gif
regions of italy where are located offices of North League (abruzzo and sardinia included are considered part of "Mezzogiorno"!!)




Well I think that also the so called Mezzogiorno is not a monolithic block. You should know that Abruzzo is central Italy but, as it stayed under the Borbonic rule, after the reunification it was economically not developed and for this reason it was considered Mezzogiorno. Today it is the richest region of the ex Borbonic State. About Sardinia, also Sardinia is different from the other regions of Mezzogiorno. Mezzogiorno, anyway, doesn't mean "Southern Italy" becouse officially Abruzzo and Molise are central Italy while Sicily and Sardinia are Isles, but both are part of Mezzogiorno.

I agree with you that Leghists are ridicolous anyway. Badly they have supporters also here in Abruzzo.

[Foxy]

Comunque è uno schifo che l'Abruzzo voti Lega Nord. Ho trovato, bazzicando per internet, una cosa che mi ha fatto molto incazzare (le offese che alcuni leghisti hanno rivolto ai meridionali... Ancora???:confused:). Per fortuna i meridionali - stavolta della Lega Sud suppongo - hanno risposto. Comunque è bene leggere per capire che pirla vanno in giro e che razza di ignoranti sono i sostenitori della Lega Nord. Tra di essi uno che si proclama del Nord e scrive "cuggino" peggio di un romanaccio... (senza offesa ai miei fratelli laziali)

http://www.legasud.it/

[AntonyCapolongo]

Personnally, I support séparation of Italy (Occitania, Padania, Veneto, (South Tirol to Austria), Central Italy and Two Sicilies).

But I didn't support Lega Nord, they are rulled by jewish and they support Berlusconi. They have forget that, I the past, when Italy didn't exist, Two Sicilies and Veneto were rich, and the rest was poor. When the Sardinians start unification, the dictatorship of Garibaldi stole the south !

Garibaldi, no grazie!

[Foxy]

Personnally, I support séparation of Italy (Occitania, Padania, Veneto, (South Tirol to Austria), Central Italy and Two Sicilies).

But I didn't support Lega Nord, they are rulled by jewish and they support Berlusconi. They have forget that, I the past, when Italy didn't exist, Two Sicilies and Veneto were rich, and the rest was poor. When the Sardinians start unification, the dictatorship of Garibaldi stole the south !

Garibaldi, no grazie!

Can you troll in an other section, please? The reunification was not made by Sardinians, but by the Sabatic Kingdom (Piemontese). You posted 3 posts about Italy, all spreading deeply false information. Obviously you are not Italian, despite the "surname" you use: Capolongo. I give you a news, this surname is not from Northern Italy, as you said you had Venetic origins, but from Campania.

http://www.gens.labo.net/it/cognomi/gif.html?cognome=CAPOLONGO&k=FF&t=cognomi&s=C

Ciao and have a bad trolling.

[askra]

Comunque è uno schifo che l'Abruzzo voti Lega Nord. Ho trovato, bazzicando per internet, una cosa che mi ha fatto molto incazzare (le offese che alcuni leghisti hanno rivolto ai meridionali... Ancora???:confused:). Per fortuna i meridionali - stavolta della Lega Sud suppongo - hanno risposto. Comunque è bene leggere per capire che pirla vanno in giro e che razza di ignoranti sono i sostenitori della Lega Nord. Tra di essi uno che si proclama del Nord e scrive "cuggino" peggio di un romanaccio... (senza offesa ai miei fratelli laziali)

http://www.legasud.it/

proprio ieri il sig. borghezio ha insultato gli abruzzesi, dicendo che l' abruzzo è un peso morto, poi, ovviamente, ha ritrattato tutto,
niente da meravigliarsi visto il personaggio, una volta aveva pure insultato i veneti e i friulani, definendoli merdacce levantine

http://www.abruzzoweb.it/contenuti/terremoto-borghezio-abruzzo-e-peso-morto/16249-302/

[Foxy]

proprio ieri il sig. borghezio ha insultato gli abruzzesi, dicendo che l' abruzzo è un peso morto, poi, ovviamente, ha ritrattato tutto,
niente da meravigliarsi visto il personaggio, una volta aveva pure insultato i veneti e i friulani, definendoli merdacce levantine

http://www.abruzzoweb.it/contenuti/terremoto-borghezio-abruzzo-e-peso-morto/16249-302/

Borghezio è una testa di cazzo, ne parlavo giusto ieri con due mie amiche del Sud (una pugliese l'altra lucana. Grazie a Dio so essere amica di tutte). Lo sai che la Lega ha dato tanti fondi al Veneto alluvionato quanti ne ha dati all'Abruzzo terremotato dove sono morte 300 persone?? Si sa il perché: perché il Veneto è la regione più leghista d'Italia!
Veneti e Friulani levantini... andiamo bene. Ma stiamo parlando di gente - i Leghisti - che aprono la bocca solo per sparare minchiate a quella parte di Italiani che si sono così rimbambiti dalla TV di Berlusconi che non capiscono più un cazzo, quindi possono reggere un tizio come Borghezio.
Fossero coerenti almeno. Il sig. Bossi è sposato con una di origini siciliane - Manuela Marrone. Però il figlio la faccia da troglodita non si sa da chi l'ha ripresa. Fatto sta che il rimbambito mezzo siciliano che ha preso il diploma a stento dopo 3 bocciature è definitivamente "coppato": il papino l'ha sistemato.

E, cari Veneti, mi dispiace per voi perché io vi considero miei connazionali e meritevoli di rispetto, ma devo proprio dire che avete un mezzo siciliano - cioè insomma, uno di quelli che odiate di più - a governarvi, e manco a dire un siciliano intelligente - ce ne sono molti, credetemi, ma nel suo caso avete toppato. Insomma, come dire, siete proprio bravi a farvelo mettere in culo, anzi la mazza la guidate voi stessi con la vostra mano.

Eh eh, scusa la finezza, Askra. Noi abruzzesi siamo i cugini dei romani e la nostra lingua è altrettanto affilata.

[Foxy]

Ho letto l'articolo,Askra, e sai cosa mi sorprende? Che un parlamentare che viene pagato più di 60.000 euro al mese non abbia nemmeno il tempo di visitare L'Aquila. Cioè, sta a Roma, alla stessa distanza da L'Aquila alla quale vivo io. Solo che io il tempo di visitare L'Aquila e Onna a gratis l'ho avuto, lui no.
Onna è completamente rasa al suolo. Il centro dell'Aquila idem. E' bello mettere in giro false notizie per prendere voti: 3-4 giorni dopo il terremoto, cioè quando ho fatto un salto ad Onna e a L'Aquila per vedere se un mio amico poteva riprendersi delle cose che erano rimaste dentro casa, ora inagibile, ho visto TUTTE LE AZIENDE aperte, la gente, pure se senza casa, era al lavoro.
Non solo, Berlusconi si è salvato il culo grazie al terremoto (vediti il documentario Draquila), il suo governo stava cadendo e ha usato questa storia per raccimolare i voti, facendo vedere che aveva costruito le case per gli aquilani (e su questo avrei molte cose da ridire).
Inoltre su facebook girano moltissime pagine e gruppi aperti da abruzzesi che invitano gli abruzzesi e gli italiani in generale a comprare prodotti aquilani in modo da risollevare l'economia, perché <<Dato che dall'alto non arrivano aiuti, è meglio far partire dal basso l'iniziativa>>, contraddicendo in pieno le falsità che dice Borghezio, e cioè che gli aquilani sono passivi e senza spirito d'iniziativa di fronte al terremoto.
D'altra parte, guardando che massa d'imbecilli sono diventati gli italiani oggi, non mi sorprende che il 50% di loro sia bene o male d'accordo con Borghezio.

[bimo]

io conosco anche alcuni meridionali che votavano lega , qui in emilia chi votava lega lo faceva più che altro contro immigrati e degrado delle città piuttosto che contro i meridionali , poi sta cosa dei celtro-longobardi limitiamola alla lombardia dato che in emilia sono fieri anche delle loro radici italiche ed etrusche

[Comte Arnau]

i don't see any relation from a cultural, linguistic and historical point view among northern italian regions. Liguria is total different from sud tirol, val d'aosta is different from lombardy, from emilia romagna etc.
the only relation is due to that northern italy today is economically stronger than south and central italy.

Well, some linguists would not agree.

There are peripherical exceptions to the Padanic group (the Germanic, Arpitan and Occitan enclaves), but linguistics show a diachronical relationship between not only the five big areas, but also with the so-called Rhaeto-Romance areas.

Obviously nowadays they are uncohesioned. This, added to the fact that they've been independent at an individual scale in the past too, makes me rather see that small Republics would be more viable than a whole Padania, with Milan centralism. I, however, find a big paradox in it, as historically it seems that it was the North itself which was responsible for the unification of Italy.

[Peyrol]

There isn't neither a common identity of all te northern Italy, BTW.

[Flintlocke]

"Pandarian nationalism"??

http://cdn2.gamefront.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/mists-of-pandaria-pandaren-concept.jpg

[Peyrol]

The criteria of the Gianfrancio Miglio's (Lega Nord teleologist) theories aren't cultural, but only linguistical: the common roots of all the gaul/celto-italic languages (in yellow), plus forlan (a raetoromanic language, as romanisch/ladin in Austria and Switzerland) and Venetian language.

http://images-mediawiki-sites.thefullwiki.org/09/1/8/6/4223385625289502.jpg

(light pink in this map)

http://www.mmerlino.com/imageindex/maps/demographic/dialects.gif