Spanish court suspends Catalonia independence vote

[Loki]

Spanish court suspends Catalonia independence vote (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/29/world/europe/spain-catalan-independence-referendum/index.html?hpt=hp_t3)

Madrid (CNN) -- A referendum over Catalonia's future as a part of Spain has been put on hold.

Spain's Constitutional Court on Monday suspended the planned referendum on independence for Spain's Catalonia region set to happen on November 9, a court spokeswoman told CNN.

The court has suspended the referendum as it consider the grounds of a lawsuit issued by Spain's federal government that challenged the planned independence vote as "unconstitutional."

The President of the Catalonia region, Artur Mas, on Saturday had signed a decree setting the date for the vote.

Even before the Constitutional Court suspended the plan, the federal government had made it clear that it any such referendum. A legal and political confrontation was expected.

The next move is in Catalonia's hand -- and whether its leaders decide to go ahead with the vote anyway.

The holding of Scotland's independence referendum earlier this month buoyed other separatist movements around the world, despite Scottish voters opting to remain part of the United Kingdom.

Mas has said that Catalonia wants to speak, wants to be heard and wants to vote.

On September 11, Catalan national day, hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets of Barcelona for the third year running demanding a vote on independence be held.

But Madrid argues that Catalonia, which represents one fifth of Spain's economy, already has broad home-rule powers, including its own parliament, police force and control over education and health. And it insists that the Spanish Constitution does not allow any of Spain's 17 regions to unilaterally break away.

Catalonia is a region of northeastern Spain, with Barcelona -- the second-largest city in Spain -- as its capital.

A referendum is expected to ask a two-part question: "Should Catalonia be a state?" And those who vote yes to that can then go to vote on the second question: "Should that state be independent?"

Polls indicate that a majority of Catalans want to have a chance to vote but that less than a majority would vote for independence, given the chance.

[Comte Arnau]

Democracy in Spain = The verdict of 12 biased judges prevails over the agreement of a Parliament elected by people and decides the political future of a whole folk.

Separation of powers = Concept not found yet in the last edition of the Dictionary.

[alfieb]

Have the vote anyway, obviously. Fuck what Madrid says.

[Comte Arnau]

Have the vote anyway, obviously. Fuck what Madrid says.

Well, as expected, our President has obeyed the Court's decision, which prevents official institutional calling for the vote until a final verdict is pronounced -as of now, it is only suspended. That does not mean that the preparations stop, though.

Some of the parties and the ordinary people are definitely going to keep on with it, because the point of no return was already reached by many people two years ago. The Spaniards are going to send riot police here for the next weeks, even if we've got our own Police here. So I expect some hot moments to happen soon.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

What's the point? EU won't accept an independent Catalunya and that means an economic crisis right from the get go. One that will cripple an already troubled economy. Maybe Pujol, that staunch Catalan nationalist, will ease that difficult time with the money he has extorted and stolen from others.

Personally I have no issue with an independent Catalunya. Although if I was Madrid I'd make a free trade contract obligatory. Catalunya can't just take 300 years of economic favoritism by the central government (understandable considering location) without giving the rest of Spain some post-independence economic love.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Democracy in Spain = The verdict of 12 biased judges prevails over the agreement of a Parliament elected by people and decides the political future of a whole folk.

Separation of powers = Concept not found yet in the last edition of the Dictionary.

Spain is not a democracy. It's a Constitutional Monarchy. There is no such thing as democracy in the world. This is basic PoliSci 101.

[Leo Iscariot]

Have the vote anyway, obviously. Fuck what Madrid says.

This.

[Comte Arnau]

What's the point? EU won't accept an independent Catalunya

Conjecture.


and that means an economic crisis right from the get go. One that will cripple an already troubled economy.

Conjecture.


Maybe Pujol, that staunch Catalan nationalist, will ease that difficult time with the money he has extorted and stolen from others.

Staunch nationalist? He belonged to the system.


Personally I have no issue with an independent Catalunya.

Lol. You ooze anti-Catalanism. I don't know the reason but I frankly don't care either.


Although if I was Madrid I'd make a free trade contract obligatory. Catalunya can't just take 300 years of economic favoritism by the central government (understandable considering location) without giving the rest of Spain some post-independence economic love.

Debts on a breakaway are agreed bilaterally. If there is no agreement, there is no debt to pay.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Conjecture.

Obviously you don't keep up with the news.




Conjecture.

No, it's a basic understanding of monetary economics.



Staunch nationalist? He belonged to the system.

Yes, a nationalist and with an independent Catalunya he and his family would have been less likely to have been caught.




Lol. You ooze anti-Catalanism. I don't know the reason but I frankly don't care either.

If you didn't care you wouldn't be responding to me. And I love all Spaniards. If Catalans want to have their own nation, that is fine with me. But don't use dishonesty to push an agenda.

http://mitesimentides.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/81osfzlpul.jpg

That's from a man with no axe to grind. You can have your independence (if that's what the people want) but don't base it on a myth and try to learn a thing or two about economics.




Debts on a breakaway are agreed bilaterally. If there is no agreement, there is no debt to pay.

Um, what? I'm speaking of something totally different. And yes there is a debt to pay. You're basically saying you don't want to pay but that just means someone else is made poorer. In other words, someone or entity is being fucked over. Never met a Spaniard who understood economics.

[Borna]

Europeans should support it, everyone knows that now is the time for mini-states on the west, since its already done to the east.
I strongly support Catalan people and Basques. Oldest people in Europe muyst have their homeland free of foreing occupation.

[Comte Arnau]

Obviously you don't keep up with the news.

I do. That is why what you say is so clearly a conjecture. No government or institution is going to take an official position before the event itself has taken place.


No, it's a basic understanding of monetary economics.

When so many economists have different stances on this, often contradictory, and the wisest end up saying that everything is possible, well, your "basic understanding" of economics is basically irrelevant to me.


If you didn't care you wouldn't be responding to me. And I love all Spaniards. If Catalans want to have their own nation, that is fine with me. But don't use dishonesty to push an agenda.

Catalans have been a nation for centuries. What we nowadays have not, yet, is a sovereign country in which to simply live fully as what we are, Catalans.


That's from a man with no axe to grind. You can have your independence (if that's what the people want) but don't base it on a myth

Why not? Why should we be different from the rest? Every nation has its own myths and its own vision of History.


and try to learn a thing or two about economics.

Sure, one day I might even dare reach your 'basic understanding' of it.


you're basically saying you don't want to pay but that just means someone else is stuck with it.

I'm only saying that if there are no agreements, there is no shared debt. So it'd actually be better for both parts to eventually reach one.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

I do. That is why what you say is so clearly a conjecture. No government or institution is going to take an official position before the event itself has taken place.

Sure you do.


Viviane Reding, vice president of the European Commission, in February said that although "the Catalans are fervent Europeans," taking into account the rules of the EU, Catalonia "will be outside the European Union within seconds of the vote in favor of independence". Reding expressed respect for the Catalan desire for independence, but insisted that the process of returning to the Union "would not be quick", adding that she would regret "a Europe without Catalonia".
http://www.euractiv.com/sections/eu-elections-2014/catalonian-independence-creates-eu-election-issue-301921



When so many economists have different stances on this, often contradictory, and the wisest end up saying that everything is possible, well, your "basic understanding" of economics is basically irrelevant to me.

Can you name some of the relevant economists? Or is this a vague "economists say this and that" that doesn't really appeal to me. I like to look at credentials and reputation for successful predictions. I can find you an economist who says just about anything. And then there is the question of whether you understand what they're arguing.




Catalans have been a nation for centuries. What we nowadays have not, yet, is a sovereign country in which to simply live fully as what we are, Catalans.

No, they haven't. There has never been a nation state called Catalunya. There has been a Kingdom of Aragon, however, of which Catalunya was a region. But that is irrelevant to me with regards to independence. I have no issue with a group voting on independence regardless if they were once a nation.




Why not? Why should we be different from the rest? Every nation has its own myths and its own vision of History.

Because someone living in the 21st century should value honesty over false propaganda. A lie is never noble.



Sure, one day I might even dare reach your 'basic understanding' of it.

I doubt it but I'm sure you'll lie about it. It wouldn't be the first time I caught you lying.


I'm only saying that if there are no agreements, there is no shared debt. So it'd actually be better for both parts to eventually reach one.

I can't discuss something you don't understand.

[Comte Arnau]

Sure you do.

As I suspected, you're referring to personal declarations.There is no official written paper. Again, official positions, the ones that matter, will only take place after the event, not before.


Can you name some of the relevant economists? Or is this a vague "economists say this and that" that doesn't really appeal to me. I like to look at credentials and reputation for successful predictions. I can find you an economist who says just about anything. And then there is the question of whether you understand what they're arguing.

If not for your last sentence, I would even have played your game and mentioned some of them. For a moment I even thought you were going to be able to maintain a proper debate. I overrated you again, my fault.


No, they haven't. There has never been a nation state called Catalunya.

Nation-states are a very recent thing and there are very few in Europe. Iceland and Portugal are good examples.

The Catalans have existed as a politically articulated nation for more than eight centuries, and your misinformation can't change that fact.


There has been a Kingdom of Aragon, however, of which Catalunya was a region.

Wrong, once again. You're tiring.

Catalonia has never been part of the Kingdom of Aragon, but of a Crown made by two founding distinct political entities: the Kingdom of Aragon AND the County of Barcelona. Each of the political entities had their own Courts, laws and customs and worked in a different way. They were subject to a King who by the way belonged to the House of Barcelona. In fact, it's not until two centuries after the dynastic union that it's called the Crown of Aragon for the first time, for simplification. The way the union was called in the beginning was Aragonum et Catalonie, and the dignity of the king was King of Aragon and Count of Barcelona. And he couldn't forget the second one at all.

But well, this explanation is for others rather than for you. You'll just repeat what you've said again in a few days.


But that is irrelevant to me with regards to independence. I have no issue with a group voting on independence regardless if they were once a nation.

All your opinions are totally irrelevant on the issue, that's true. Specially when you show such poor knowledge on it.


I doubt it but I'm sure you'll lie about it. It wouldn't be the first time I caught you lying.

More arrogant babble.


I can't discuss something you don't understand.

You simply can't discuss.

[Ars Moriendi]

Can't say I feel any regret for the Catalufos, a people deeply impregned by XX Century quasi-Communist republicanism.

Plus, need stronger states in Southern Europe for the future.

[Comte Arnau]

Can't say I feel any regret for the Catalufos

As if your feelings mattered. Specially when you need to use a slur to feel someone.

[Ars Moriendi]

As if your feelings mattered. Specially when you need to use a slur to feel someone.

Neither do yours. This is just a discussion board.

[Empecinado]

Catalan separatist process is a typical case of demonstrations planned to destabilize countries. Consider that at present the payment of interest on Spanish debt has eaten almost all the cuts made by the government. And it is possible that given the high indebtedness with Spain, Italy and Greece, the governments of these countries may be tempted in the future to repudiate at least part of its public debt. But if this were to occur, it would be a blow to the City of London and its network of tax havens located in British Overseas Territories. For this reason, the "process" of Catalan independence is nothing but a veiled threat to the Spanish government to not deviate from the path they have marked. I think the powers that control the West NEVER will accept an independent Catalonia, because if that were to occur, would be bankrupt both Catalonia and the rest of Spain, with consequent non-payment of debt.

How we should react then on this referendum? Well, with serenity and silence. I think Spain will emerge stronger after this. The regions with greater presence of ideologies associated to the "New World Order" are precisely Catalonia and the Basque Country. The latter region has entered a phase of irreversible decline in economic and demographic fields. And the "Catalan process" will also entail the decline of Catalonia, because this region has become a sort of no man's land where many people don't know what will happen, which is severely penalizing foreign investment and obviously will end up affecting the entire economy.

The dogs who organize this would like we Spaniards kill between ourselves, and we must not allow a Maidan happens in Spain. Simply ignore the Catalan separatists, they won't have the balls to move on.

[♥ Lily ♥]

This is reminiscent of Franco's oppressive behaviour, an insult to democracy and an abuse on the basic human rights to vote.

Catalonia and the Basque Country both have the potential to be wealthy nations despite being small... look at Andorra;- a small Catalan speaking nation between France and Spain, which is one of the richest and more peaceful nations in Europe with very low crime rates.

[Comte Arnau]

Simply ignore the Catalan separatists, they won't have the balls to move on.

Moving backwards now would be riskier. If we do, even I'll become a Catalan hater.


Catalonia and the Basque Country both have the potential to be wealthy nations despite being small... look at Andorra;- a small Catalan speaking nation between France and Spain, which is one of the richest and more peaceful nations in Europe with very low crime rates.

Andorra is a microstate, though. Catalonia's size is quite different, larger than Belgium, with a larger population than Serbia or most Scandinavian countries and ranking high on GDP. Not that small on a European scale.

[Rudel]

Democracy in Spain = The verdict of 12 biased judges prevails over the agreement of a Parliament elected by people and decides the political future of a whole folk.

Separation of powers = Concept not found yet in the last edition of the Dictionary.
Sounds like a country I might start to like.


EU won't accept an independent Catalunya
You're not very familiar with this continent, are you ?


Europeans should support it, everyone knows that now is the time for mini-states on the west, since its already done to the east.
Because the original experience of balkanisation succeeded so well.


Catalonia and the Basque Country both have the potential to be wealthy nations despite being small... look at Andorra;- a small Catalan speaking nation between France and Spain, which is one of the richest and more peaceful nations in Europe with very low crime rates.
Andorra is only successful because it's using its position to leach off the neighbouring states (who have de facto sovereignty over it anyway). But it was never prosperous before a few decades ago, and its model is certainly not extendible to Catalonia were it sovereign.