Expansionist maps

[W. R.]

The idea of the thread is simple. Post a map in which, as you (pretend to) believe, the territory of your nation has the correct/just/legitimate borders.

One from mine: http://i40.tinypic.com/29og42a.jpg :biggrin:

It is based on Dr. Jan Stankievič's map: http://www.pravapis.org/stan_map_full.jpg (If it doesn't work, try to reload the page several times).

I know nobody is going to read this, but some tl;dr from Dr. Jan Stankievič justifying the map: http://www.pravapis.org/art_belarus_ethnographic_map1953.asp

[The Ripper]

Ideally, hadn't the Finnic peoples been cleansed / genocided:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/8/85/20050728135339!Suur-Suomen_kartta.png

[W. R.]

Ideally, hadn't the Finnic peoples been cleansed / genocided:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/8/85/20050728135339!Suur-Suomen_kartta.pngLooks modest.

What about the Urals as the eastern border?

[The Ripper]

Looks modest.

What about the Urals as the eastern border?

:D

[Pallantides]

Ideally, hadn't the Finnic peoples been cleansed / genocided:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/8/85/20050728135339!Suur-Suomen_kartta.png
Why Finnmark?

The first Finns came to Finnmark in the 18th century, besides there have always been more Norwegians and Sámi people living there than Finns.

[The Ripper]

Why Finnmark?

The first Finns came to Finnmark in the 18th century, besides there have always been more Norwegians and Sámi people living there than Finns.

I'm not sure if this is a reference to Ruija / Kvenland. I basically concider the purple areas as the "just" borders, as the situation was in 1917. They are also strategically quite good, limiting the land border with Russia to three narrow isthmuses.

[Daos]

The lands inhabited by Romanians - nothing more, nothing less:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ro/7/76/TeritoriiRomanesti.png

[Pallantides]

I'm not sure if this is a reference to Ruija / Kvenland. I basically concider the purple areas as the "just" borders, as the situation was in 1917.

Kvenland is bullshit...
The Kvens came to Finnmark in the 18th and 19th century, before that the only people who lived in that area were Sámi and some Norwegian colonists.

[Wulfhere]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/The_British_Empire.png

[W. R.]

:DHey, I was serious! :ohwell:

[The Ripper]

Kvenland is bullshit...
The Kvens came to Finnmark in the 18th and 19th century, before that the only people who lived in that area were Sámi and some Norwegian colonists.

There is historical continuity in the Finnish populace there from before the 18th century. But like I said, it does not concern me. Whether or not Kvenland is bullshit is hard to say, depends what theory on the nature of the Kvens you find most believable. I personally believe they were Finn or Tavastian traders and raiders.

[Äike]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/LIVONIA_vulgo_Lyefland-Joan_Blaeu,_1662.jpg

There's a reason why modern-day Estonia and Latvia was called "Livonia"(After the Finnic Livonians).

[Liffrea]

England is alright as it is, apart from the Lothian region, once part of Northumbria that was lost to the Canmore in 1018……:D

I can’t wait for Arawn to post a picture…….just remember who won at Brunanburh……and Twickenham this year my Welsh friend.:D

[The Lawspeaker]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/HeelNederlandinEuropa.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Espagnols.PNG

Preferably also with East Frisia, Benthem, Guilk, Tudderen and the Lands of 's Hertogenrade (the complete Dutchies of Guelders (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Low_Countries_Locator_Gelre.svg), Gulik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_J%C3%BClich) and Limburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_limburg)). Luxembourg (including the present Belgian province of Luxembourg) can become independent for all I care.
The Walloons would be invited to join a new Greater Netherlands federation.

[Pallantides]

There is historical continuity in the Finnish populace there from before the 18th century. But like I said, it does not concern me. Whether or not Kvenland is bullshit is hard to say, depends what theory on the nature of the Kvens you find most believable. I personally believe they were Finn or Tavastian traders and raiders.

Next they'll claim Hedmark and large parts of eastern Norway as well...:D:D

[Óttar]

Grossdeutschland

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Nazi_Germany.svg/180px-Nazi_Germany.svg.png

[The Ripper]

grossdeutschland

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/nazi_germany.svg/180px-nazi_germany.svg.png

you are american.

[Monolith]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4140&stc=1&d=1268942961

Territorial changes: Included parts of Bosnian Posavina, Western Herzegovina, Cazinska Krajina

[Electronic God-Man]

you are american.

An excellent point...

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4141&d=1268943827

Fuck yeah, and we get the moon too.

[Óttar]

you are american.
Alas. I didn't read the first post.

I am seceding. I'm going to be reunited with the Crown in Canada. Founding Fathers, your noble experiment hath failed. The republic has fallen to unlettered, brutish theocrats. The Northeast, California, the great lakes region, and the Pacific Northwest shall be admitted as an autonomous region complete with a regional flag. :p

http://www.usflagshop.com/images/betsy.gif

I suppose we might have to wave this one instead.

http://www.westol.com/~beaurega/grand_un.gif


http://www.alexleduc.com/uploaded_images/united-states-of-canada-796649.jpg

[Wulfhere]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/236084main_MilkyWay-full-annotated.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

I made this awhile ago.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/innocent456/velikabulgaria.png?t=1268959845

However if Yugoslavia was recreated and with the possibility of expanding her borders then I'd go for something like this.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/innocent456/newyugoslavia-1.png?t=1268960315

And voila we have a Russia of the South. With land plentiful, resources to be found everywhere, and this gives the possibility for the South Slavs to increase our numbers in a more rapid matter. Economic prosperity is also a near-guarantee if governmental corruption is not preeminent. A strong military will also be very easy to create with technological innovations achieved daily. :thumb001:

If no Yugoslavia then I'd go for an union with Romania and create a new federal Thracian state.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/innocent456/Thrace.png?t=1268960730

If we attempted to create a "Greater Thrace" then it would look something like this.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/innocent456/GreaterThrace.png?t=1268960949

[Loddfafner]

Is this the Greater Mercian Empire?


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/The_British_Empire.png

[Wulfhere]

Is this the Greater Mercian Empire?

No, I was merely taking my cue from some of the above examples, which were basically showing the largest area ever ruled by a particular nation. Oh, and not forgetting that this was the largest area ruled by any nation, ever.

[poiuytrewq0987]

The proposed "expansionist" Bulgaria is "minimalist" compared to this one where Bulgaria is recreated in spirit of the First Bulgarian Empire and Old Great Bulgaria (in addition of Anatolian territories Bulgarian came close to conquering). If you don't like the map below, sorry. :D

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5718/maximalistbulgaria.png

[poiuytrewq0987]

And perhaps if the Byzantine Empire was somehow recreated. I would suggest the borders to be this way to ensure the European heartland will be adequately protected by having a large frontier maintained by the new Byzantine Empire. :thumbs up Of course non-Europeans would be deported from the newly-subjugated European land. :)

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/3182/newbyzantineempire.png

[The Khagan]

My great vision.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I don't really get the American flag that is within Bulgaria.

[The Khagan]

We annexed you, duh.

[Pallantides]

We annexed you, duh.

And the Bulgarians would of course be deported from the the newly-subjugated land?:D

[Wulfhere]

And the Bulgarians were of course deported from the the newly-subjugated land?:D

Indeed. The Bulgarians were the enemies of the Byzantines.

[Turkophagos]

Eastern mediterranean sea have been the cradle of Greeks for milleniums, from the first colonizations of 8th century bc to the full hellenization of Eastern Roman (Byzantine) empire at the time of emperor Heraclius in the 7th century:


http://www.utexas.edu/courses/greeksahoy!/greek_colonies_550.jpg


http://www.ata.boun.edu.tr/Faculty/Nadir%20Ozbek/courses/Hist121/Maps/Byzantine%20Empire%201000-1100.jpg


Magna Graecia, Eastern Thrace, Asia minor.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Indeed. The Bulgarians were the enemies of the Byzantines.

And how exactly do the Byzantines have to do with the Americans?

P.S. If you took history seriously, you'd know that Byzantines and Bulgarians fought against each others but we also allied at times against greater threats.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Eastern mediterranean sea have been the cradle of Greeks for milleniums, from the first colonizations of 8th century bc to the full hellenization of Eastern Roman (Byzantine) empire at the time of emperor Heraclius in the 7th century:

Magna Graecia, Eastern Thrace, Asia minor.

That may have been, but the age of the Greeks is long over. It's the age of the Slavs now. There are only fifteen million Greeks worldwide compared to 315 million Slavs worldwide. Sorry buddy. :thumbs up

[poiuytrewq0987]

All hail the new Slavic Empire! :D

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/2126/slavicempire.png

[Pallantides]

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/9991/123dmt.jpg

[Wulfhere]

And how exactly do the Byzantines have to do with the Americans?

P.S. If you took history seriously, you'd know that Byzantines and Bulgarians fought against each others but we also allied at times against greater threats.

Enemies, allies, whatever - the point being that they were two entirely separate nationalities. The Byzantines were Greeks.

[Wulfhere]

That may have been, but the age of the Greeks is long over. It's the age of the Slavs now. There are only fifteen million Greeks worldwide compared to 315 million Slavs worldwide. Sorry buddy. :thumbs up

Actually, it's still the age of the Anglo-Saxons. If ever that were to change, it would be the Chinese who took over, by sheer weight of numbers. The Slavs reached their apogee during the Cold War, and even then were second place. Since then they've slipped back quite a lot.

[The Ripper]

Actually, it's still the age of the Anglo-Saxons. If ever that were to change, it would be the Chinese who took over, by sheer weight of numbers. The Slavs reached their apogee during the Cold War, and even then were second place. Since then they've slipped back quite a lot.

The Anglo-American axis have been in retreat for some time now. :)

GOOD.

[poiuytrewq0987]

double post.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Enemies, allies, whatever - the point being that they were two entirely separate nationalities. The Byzantines were Greeks.

Read again, Pallantides wasn't talking about Greeks you dumb fuck.


Actually, it's still the age of the Anglo-Saxons. If ever that were to change, it would be the Chinese who took over, by sheer weight of numbers. The Slavs reached their apogee during the Cold War, and even then were second place. Since then they've slipped back quite a lot.

Are you dense? The English only rule the UK, and that country isn't very influential on the world stage. Canada and Australia? Both countries are a joke militarily.

[Wulfhere]

The Anglo-American axis have been in retreat for some time now. :)

GOOD.

Who would you prefer, us or the Chinese?

[Wulfhere]

Read again, Pallantides wasn't talking about Greeks you dumb fuck.



Are you dense? The English only rule the UK, and that country isn't very influential on the world stage. Canada and Australia? Both countries are a joke militarily.

The USA isn't a joke militarily though, which you forgot to mention.

[poiuytrewq0987]

The USA isn't a joke militarily though, which you forgot to mention.

The USA is an Anglo country? Haha, good one.

[Wulfhere]

The USA is an Anglo country? Haha, good one.

Whatever its mongrelised population, it's still run by the Anglos. And that's what matters in world terms.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Whatever its mongrelised population, it's still run by the Anglos. And that's what matters in world terms.

The USA is not being run by Anglos, you moron. If anything, the UK is a willing slave for American interests.

[Saruman]

http://www.biocrawler.com/w/images/0/07/Greater-serbia.png

[Wulfhere]

The USA is not being run by Anglos, you moron. If anything, the UK is a willing slave for American interests.

Who constitute the ruling class of America if not the Anglos, or WASPs as they are sometimes called? And yes, the UK is indeed a good ally of America.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Who constitute the ruling class of America if not the Anglos, or WASPs as they are sometimes called? And yes, the UK is indeed a good ally of America.

WASP is hardily an English-concentrated definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestant


In modern North American usage, WASP may include people apart from English background, from Dutch, German, Huguenot (French Protestant), Scandinavian, Scottish, Austrian, Swiss, Scots Irish (Irish Protestant), Irish and Welsh backgrounds.But you can go on with your delusions of grandeur that Anglos rule the world, LOL.

[Wulfhere]

WASP is hardily an English-concentrated definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestant
But you can go on with your delusions of grandeur that Anglos rule the world, LOL.

It may include people of non-English background, but it's predominantly English. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be called that.

Anglos do rule the world matey, no matter how much others don't like it.

[poiuytrewq0987]

It may include people of non-English background, but it's predominantly English. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be called that.

Anglos do rule the world matey, no matter how much others don't like it.

Hey bro, you probably need to talk with a psychiatrist to treat this condition (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/delusions+of+grandeur). Anglos for the last time don't rule the world, last time I checked a negro was commander-in-chief of the United States military, not an Anglo. And regarding the direction of the US foreign policy and who has the most influence over that. The Jews are the ones who influence the foreign policy of the USA the most. Have you ever heard of the AIPAC? Possibly the most powerful lobby group in the world. There's nothing comparable the Anglos have. English-descended politicians are not looking out for Anglo interests but rather the ones who pay the most and it's the AIPAC and the businessmen who are not Anglos; if they are then they are too not looking out for Anglo interests. WASPs are largely concentrated in New England, a sparsely populated part of the USA. And non-Anglo WASPs are the ones who have most power and even with that power they hold very little political weight. There's nothing pro-Anglo about the USA for Christ's sake. The Anglos don't even make up a majority in the USA, it can't even be considered an Anglo country. Hell, Anglos don't even make up a majority in Canada or Australia. Sorry, but you are not the majority, you are nothing you need to accept that. Your time on this world was long past after the empire collapsed, accept it instead of ranting how Anglos rule the world.

[Wulfhere]

Hey bro, you probably need to talk with a psychiatrist to treat this condition (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/delusions+of+grandeur). Anglos for the last time don't rule the world, last time I checked a negro was commander-in-chief of the United States military, not an Anglo. And regarding the direction of the US foreign policy and who has the most influence over that. The Jews are the ones who influence the foreign policy of the USA the most. Have you ever heard of the AIPAC? Possibly the most powerful lobby group in the world. There's nothing comparable the Anglos have. English-descended politicians are not looking out for Anglo interests but rather the ones who pay the most and it's the AIPAC and the businessmen who are not Anglos; if they are then they are too not looking out for Anglo interests. WASPs are largely concentrated in New England, a sparsely populated part of the USA. And non-Anglo WASPs are the ones who have most power and even with that power they hold very little political weight. There's nothing pro-Anglo about the USA for Christ's sake. The Anglos don't even make up a majority in the USA, it can't even be considered an Anglo country. Hell, Anglos don't even make up a majority in Canada or Australia. Sorry, but you are not the majority, you are nothing you need to accept that. Your time on this world was long past after the empire collapsed, accept it instead of ranting how Anglos rule the world.

Lol. Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it isn't true.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Lol. Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it isn't true.

No, you are just in a denial as is evident with your ramblings.

[Arrow Cross]

All hail the new Slavic Empire! :D

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/2126/slavicempire.png
Not again, kkthx. Move those borders eastwards. :p

[poiuytrewq0987]

Not again, kkthx. Move those borders eastwards. :p

The Slavicization of Hungary is inevitable! :D

[Pallantides]

Hungarians are just Germanic/Slavic hybrids that are Steppe Nomad wannabes:p

[Arrow Cross]

The idea of the thread is simple. Post a map in which, as you (pretend to) believe, the territory of your nation has the correct/just/legitimate borders.
Why, this has only been legitimate for a mere 1024 years... minus the conjoined Kingdom of Croatia, entering personal union only in 1091.

http://mek.oszk.hu/00000/00090/00090.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Hungary

[Arrow Cross]

Hungarians are just Germanic/Slavic hybrids that are Steppe Nomad wannabes:p
Spoken like a tr00 Ignoramus™.

[Arrow Cross]

The Slavicization of Hungary is inevitable! :D
*Looks at the map*
*Looks back, scratching head*

Much like the Slavicization of... Somalia?

[poiuytrewq0987]

*Looks at the map*
*Looks back, scratching head*

Much like the Slavicization of... Somalia?

Oh no, non-Europeans won't be just Slavicized but rather expelled to land not under the control of the great Slavic Empire. :thumb001:

[Pallantides]

Spoken like a tr00 Ignoramus™.

They cluster pretty close to Germans and other West Europeans.
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/4894/geneticmapfinns.jpg

Suomi - Finland
Kainuu - Kainuu
Varsinais-Suomi - Southwest Finland
Suomenruotsalaiset - Finland-Swedes

Venäjä - Russia
Latvia - Latvia
Tanska - Denmark
Hollanti - Netherlands
Britannia - UK
Italia - Italy
Ruotsi - Sweden
Viro - Estonia
Unkari - Hungary

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Study+Isolated+Finns+have+unique+genes/1135254757770

The study shows that nations who speak languages that are related to each other are not necessarily close genetically. Finnish genes are closer to those of the Dutch than they are to those of the Hungarians, whose language is related to Finnish.

Looks like you're neither Finno-Ugric or Huns.

[Daos]

Why, this has only been legitimate for a mere 1024 years... minus the conjoined Kingdom of Croatia, entering personal union only in 1091.

http://mek.oszk.hu/00000/00090/00090.jpg

And has brought much joy to all... :grouphug:

:rolleyes2:

[Saruman]

What's up with Hungarians:D, they don't speak IE language, then in 17th century many of them islamize and go to Bosnia where they adopt slavic language but this time with non european religion.:confused::D

[Arrow Cross]

...then in 17th century many of them islamize and go to Bosnia where they adopt slavic language but this time with non european religion.:confused::D
...What? Despite being a history buff, I've never heard of anything like that.

In the XVIIth Century, 90+% of Hungarians were busy getting rid of the Ottoman pest at last, one way or another.

[Saruman]

...What? Despite being a history buff, I've never heard of anything like that.

In the XVIIth Century, 90+% of Hungarians were busy getting rid of the Ottoman pest at last, one way or another.

Wherever Ottomans went there was population that converted to Islam for various reasons, so yes there were such Hungarians too, and yes many of Bosnian muslims(from Bosnia region) are of that origin, maybe even a considerable percentage, it's very hard to speak, this is not quite common knowledge but I've done some exploration and it would appear to be so.
My grandmother's brother's wife told me once that she originated from Pécs and I don't remember exactly, her ancestor converted to Islam to receive or retain a title of "Beg/Bey" it's like a feudal landowner, she told me that 40% of Bosnian muslims are from Hungary, that's too much I'd say but it would appear the number is certainly quite high.

[Arrow Cross]

Wherever Ottomans went there was population that converted to Islam for various reasons, so yes there were such Hungarians too, and yes many of Bosnian muslims(from Bosnia region) are of that origin, maybe even a considerable percentage, it's very hard to speak, this is not quite common knowledge but I've done some exploration and it would appear to be so.
My grandmother's brother's wife told me once that she originated from Pécs and I don't remember exactly, her ancestor converted to Islam to receive or retain a title of "Beg/Bey" it's like a feudal landowner, she told me that 40% of Bosnian muslims are from Hungary, that's too much I'd say but it would appear the number is certainly quite high.
It certainly wasn't significant, because none of the history books I've studied even make a mention of such conversions. On the contary, it's generally agreed on that the Ottoman invaders were at least religionally tolerant, they knew it wouldn't be possible to force-convert the population.

But by all means, provide a good source and I'll believe it was more than a handful of opportunistic individuals.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Void
The Anglos don't even make up a majority in the USA, it can't even be considered an Anglo country. Hell, Anglos don't even make up a majority in Canada or Australia.

They don't make up a majority in increasingly large areas of England, Leicesterapoor, Birminghastan, Wolverhamlabad, Bradfordistan, Londonistan, at the rate it's going the English will all be living in a few hills west of Lake Windemere.....

[Wulfhere]

They don't make up a majority in increasingly large areas of England, Leicesterapoor, Birminghastan, Wolverhamlabad, Bradfordistan, Londonistan, at the rate it's going the English will all be living in a few hills west of Lake Windemere.....

You're correct of course, which is why something needs to be done. Proposals for Europe as a whole, and Mercia in particular, are linked below.

[poiuytrewq0987]

They don't make up a majority in increasingly large areas of England, Leicesterapoor, Birminghastan, Wolverhamlabad, Bradfordistan, Londonistan, at the rate it's going the English will all be living in a few hills west of Lake Windemere.....

Well, it's going to be the same with Bulgaria where if current trends continue - Bulgarians will just number at 4.3 million by 2050. :eek:

[poiuytrewq0987]

You're correct of course, which is why something needs to be done. Proposals for Europe as a whole, and Mercia in particular, are linked below.

I don't want something ridiculous like Frya's Folks. I'm sorry but I don't think religion should be linked with European preservation. Not everyone is religious and the current model of the European Union could work only if the parliament in Brussels wasn't filled with a bunch of sell outs.

[The Khagan]

The USA is not being run by Anglos, you moron. If anything, the UK is a willing slave for American interests.

You can squabble over meaningless definitions of what constitutes an Anglo in racial and ancestral parameters, but the fact is, if your primary language in the US is English, you are an Anglo-American. Excluding African Americans, for obvious reasons.

Slavs ruling the world? lol... based on sheer numerical superiority? LOLK.

Also our president is half white ;)

And our congress is overwhelmingly white in majority. :P

EDIT: Also, a little disclaimer for the WASP title... the majority of our nation are White Anglo-Saxon-speaking Protestants.

While I don't necessarily believe in an "Anglo-sphere," it's funny to watch you fumble logically.

[Wulfhere]

I don't want something ridiculous like Frya's Folks. I'm sorry but I don't think religion should be linked with European preservation. Not everyone is religious and the current model of the European Union could work only if the parliament in Brussels wasn't filled with a bunch of sell outs.

Religion will not be imposed on anyone. The principles described will be for the ruling class only. As for the current EU, I think it is just about the worst institution ever foisted on an unsuspecting continent (or maybe that distinction belongs to the Catholic Church). It needs changing root and branch.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Religion will not be imposed on anyone. The principles described will be for the ruling class only. As for the current EU, I think it is just about the worst institution ever foisted on an unsuspecting continent (or maybe that distinction belongs to the Catholic Church). It needs changing root and branch.

Europeans overthrew monarchs because we did not believe that the authority of monarchs were divinely given by God himself. What makes you think that we will accept the ruling elite being a part of a cult?

[Wulfhere]

Europeans overthrew monarchs because we did not believe that the authority of monarchs were divinely given by God himself. What makes you think that we will accept the ruling elite being a part of a cult?

The members of that elite will be chosen at a young age and trained in government. Quite similar, in that sense, to Plato's Republic. But they will not be hereditary rulers, as this will be strictly prohibited.

[poiuytrewq0987]

The members of that elite will be chosen at a young age and trained in government. Quite similar, in that sense, to Plato's Republic. But they will not be hereditary rulers, as this will be strictly prohibited.

I still don't like the idea, sorry. I like how things work right now aside our corrupt politicians being total sellouts.

[Wulfhere]

I still don't like the idea, sorry. I like how things work right now aside our corrupt politicians being total sellouts.

That's the problem though, because things don't really work now. Our current institutions are not up to the job of defendeng and promoting our culture and society.

[The Lawspeaker]

I am against any form of centralizing power and elite-forming thanks.
May it be a priesthood, monarchs, regents, nobility.. or a just as awful liberal elite or financial elite.

[poiuytrewq0987]

That's the problem though, because things don't really work now. Our current institutions are not up to the job of defendeng and promoting our culture and society.

It's not because we don't have a Frya's Folk-like system in place but rather because we've allowed ourselves to be indulgent, and be ignorant of what our political elite does to our country and us. The voice of the people is the most powerful voice and it can be put to action but it isn't being harnessed nor is it being put into action. The problem of decay of European countries lies solely with the people who haven't done anything to stop that.

[poiuytrewq0987]

You can squabble over meaningless definitions of what constitutes an Anglo in racial and ancestral parameters, but the fact is, if your primary language in the US is English, you are an Anglo-American. Excluding African Americans, for obvious reasons.

Slavs ruling the world? lol... based on sheer numerical superiority? LOLK.

Also our president is half white ;)

And our congress is overwhelmingly white in majority. :P

EDIT: Also, a little disclaimer for the WASP title... the majority of our nation are White Anglo-Saxon-speaking Protestants.

While I don't necessarily believe in an "Anglo-sphere," it's funny to watch you fumble logically.

Who cares if people speak English, it doesn't mean they hump to the idea of an Anglosphere which is what Wulfhere is saying.

[Wulfhere]

I am against any form of centralizing power and elite-forming thanks.
May it be a priesthood, monarchs, regents, nobility.. or a just as awful liberal elite or financial elite.

Elites will form, whether we want them to or not. Far better to create an elite that's up to the job.

[Wulfhere]

It's not because we don't have a Frya's Folk-like system in place but rather because we've allowed ourselves to be indulgent, and be ignorant of what our political elite does to our country and us. The voice of the people is the most powerful voice and it can be put to action but it isn't being harnessed nor is it being put into action. The problem of decay of European countries lies solely with the people who haven't done anything to stop that.

The voice of the people is ill-formed and diffuse.

[The Khagan]

Who cares if people speak English, it doesn't mean they hump to the idea of an Anglosphere which is what Wulfhere is saying.

Never said that? Never said that anyone here in 'Merca does. I've only ever witnessed the idea of an Anglosphere floating around with nationalistic English and the few Americans I've seen that adhere to it have extreme English sympathies. We Americans are pretty aloof to the idea in general. Despite the language connection, the UK is about as different to us as the rest of Europe is. At least from what I gather. We're a pretty isolated bunch in the grand scheme of things.

[Wulfhere]

Who cares if people speak English, it doesn't mean they hump to the idea of an Anglosphere which is what Wulfhere is saying.

The Anglosphere exists as a practical fact - culturally, economically and politically.

[poiuytrewq0987]

The voice of the people is ill-formed and diffuse.

It is when it's disorganized, but the voice of the people is what the corrupt elites are afraid of. Of course, with you in England and with a monarch as head of state, you wouldn't understand. The Americans showed the power elite what the voice of the people could do once back in 1776. They still can do it again. :thumb001:

[The Khagan]

Are you dense? The English only rule the UK, and that country isn't very influential on the world stage. Canada and Australia? Both countries are a joke militarily.

Uhm, 6th largest economy and purchasing power? 3rd in Europe? Largest air force and navy in the European union? Second largest in NATO?

Yep, the UK isn't very influential at ALL.

[Wulfhere]

It is when it's disorganized, but the voice of the people is what the corrupt elites are afraid of. Of course, with you in England and with a monarch as head of state, you wouldn't understand. The Americans showed the power elite what the voice of the people could do once back in 1776. They still can do it again. :thumb001:

It was the elite of Amercia who started the revolution for their own benefit. Only a third of the population were in favour, and another third so against it that they moved to Canada (the other third were indifferent).

Do you think we don't have a tradition of freedom and common law in England? We have one of the strongest in the world. This same tradition was imported to America and the rest of the Anglosphere. The English, after trying out a republic in the 1650s, decided they preferred a monarchy with no real power but huge symbolic value.

[The Lawspeaker]

The only solution when an elite forms is to line each and every one belonging to them up and start over.
Revolutions are (in that respect) a blessing in disguise.

[Wulfhere]

Uhm, 6th largest economy and purchasing power? 3rd in Europe? Largest air force and navy in the European union? Second largest in NATO?

Yep, the UK isn't very influential at ALL.

Indeed - why do people have this strangely erroneous view of us, I wonder? Oh well, more fool them :)

[poiuytrewq0987]

It was the elite of Amercia who started the revolution for their own benefit. Only a third of the population were in favour, and another third so against it that they moved to Canada (the other third were indifferent).
[quote]
Do you think we don't have a tradition of freedom and common law in England? We have one of the strongest in the world. This same tradition was imported to America and the rest of the Anglosphere. The English, after trying out a republic in the 1650s, decided they preferred a monarchy with no real power but huge symbolic value.

That's pretty funny, considering how CCTVs are on every single street, kitchen knives are considered to be dangerous weapons, etc...

[Wulfhere]

The only solution when an elite forms is to line each and every one belonging to them up and start over.
Revolutions are (in that respect) a blessing in disguise.

New elites always form, and after revolutions usually quite unpleasant ones. Better, as I said, to create one from scratch.

[The Lawspeaker]

No. No elites. And when they form line them up. That's the only proper solution.

[Wulfhere]

[QUOTE=Wulfhere;185659]It was the elite of Amercia who started the revolution for their own benefit. Only a third of the population were in favour, and another third so against it that they moved to Canada (the other third were indifferent).


That's pretty funny, considering how CCTVs are on every single street, kitchen knives are considered to be dangerous weapons, etc...

Well I for one would not want to live in a country where guns were freely available. CCTVs are a pain, but their existence is very heavily criticised.

[Wulfhere]

No. No elites. And when they form line them up. That's the only proper solution.

Who gets to decide this? The new elite? Or is anarchy to be preferred?

[poiuytrewq0987]

[QUOTE=Void;185663]

Well I for one would not want to live in a country where guns were freely available. CCTVs are a pain, but their existence is very heavily criticised.

That's quite hilarious, because it is those same guns that prevent the US government from applying similar draconian laws that is commonplace in the UK. The government fears the people, that's why it's freer over here than it is on your island. Freedom of Speech is also being cracked down in the UK, you say something insensitive then you're likely to serve a prison term.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Who gets to decide this? The new elite? Or is anarchy to be preferred?

Have you ever read the US Constitution? "We The People".

[The Lawspeaker]

Who gets to decide this? The new elite? Or is anarchy to be preferred?
We The People.

And this is a very sound answer to elites:

l-R5yOqwT7U

[Wulfhere]

[QUOTE=Wulfhere;185668]

That's quite hilarious, because it is those same guns that prevent the US government from applying similar draconian laws that is commonplace in the UK. The government fears the people, that's why it's freer over here than it is on your island. Freedom of Speech is also being cracked down in the UK, you say something insensitive then you're likely to serve a prison term.

It's also the reason why the UK had (and I'm quoting from memory here, but you get the idea) 50 gun murders last year, whereas America had 50,000. Our populations are not that different in size. All societies have the eternal juggling act of balancing freedom and security. You pays your money and takes your pick.

[Wulfhere]

Have you ever read the US Constitution? "We The People".

Lol. I'm very proud of the fact that the UK has no constitution, and can evolve without fetters.

[The Lawspeaker]

Those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither and will lose both- Benjamin Franklin.

Take your pick. I know what I'll choose.
The elite got us into this mess, Wulfhere, and you picked security against a problem they created. You will loose both your security and your freedom.

[Wulfhere]

Those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither and will lose both- Benjamin Franklin.

Take your pick. I know what I'll choose.

I could find an opposite quote from anyone, if I could be bothered. Benjamin Franklin was a hypocrite. A stuffed shirt moralist in America, but indulging in orgies on his frequent (pre-revolution) visits to Britain in the Hellfire Club.

[The Khagan]

Ad hominen anyone?

[poiuytrewq0987]

[QUOTE=Void;185670]

It's also the reason why the UK had (and I'm quoting from memory here, but you get the idea) 50 gun murders last year, whereas America had 50,000. Our populations are not that different in size. All societies have the eternal juggling act of balancing freedom and security. You pays your money and takes your pick.

It might has something to do with guns easily bought from the black market then smuggled across the border (Mexico). Where this continuum doesn't exist in the UK. The guns you buy from stores are semi-auto only, meaning you have to pull the trigger every time you want to fire a bullet. Full automatic rifles aren't available to regular citizens without proper documentations which take a couple months for it to process and be approved. The US crime stats are also inflated by negroes who are a sizable minority nowadays and you know how they are.

[Wulfhere]

Ad hominen anyone?

That's what happens when someone starts quoting the words of another in an argument, as if they were some sort of authority figure.

[Wulfhere]

[QUOTE=Wulfhere;185675]

It might has something to do with guns easily bought from the black market then smuggled across the border (Mexico). Where this continuum doesn't exist in the UK. The guns you buy from stores are semi-auto only, meaning you have to pull the trigger every time you want to fire a bullet. Full automatic rifles aren't available to regular citizens without proper documentations which take a couple months for it to process and be approved. The US crime stats are also inflated by negroes who are a sizable minority nowadays and you know how they are.

So why can't Americans buy automatics? Or bazookas? Or nuclear missiles (for the rich, at least)? So much for freedom, eh? It's just where you choose to draw the line, and it always will be.

[The Khagan]

That's what happens when someone starts quoting the words of another in an argument, as if they were some sort of authority figure.

Nah dude, that's called referencing, and it's perfectly acceptable in discourse. To disregard ones words simply for the life they "allegedly" lived is a logical fallacy and that, my friend, is not acceptable in discourse.

[poiuytrewq0987]

[QUOTE=Void;185684]

So why can't Americans by automatics? Or bazookas? Or nuclear missiles (for the rich, at least)? So much for freedom, eh? It's just where you choose to draw the line, and it always will be.

Actually you can buy automatic guns, explosives such as C4, grenades, etc. Just have to have the proper documentations from the BATF. ;) I could apply for Class 3 license and be approved for such weapons but I don't have a need for them. :) I have an AR-15 which is practically a semi-auto version of a M4 Carbine and that's just good enough for me. I use it for self-defense and enjoyment at the shooting range.

P.S. Bazookas haven't been in use since the Vietnam War. Just a heads up. :D

[Wulfhere]

Nah dude, that's called referencing, and it's perfectly acceptable in discourse. To disregard ones words simply for the life they "allegedly" lived is a logical fallacy and that, my friend, is not acceptable in discourse.

But why is Mr Franklin regarded as a better reference than the following:

"Freedom and security are eternally conflicting requirements that all societies evolve to deal with in their own way."
Me (2010)

[Wulfhere]

[QUOTE=Wulfhere;185687]

Actually you can buy automatic guns, explosives such as C4, grenades, etc. Just have to have the proper documentations from the BATF. ;) I could apply for Class 3 license and be approved for such weapons but I don't have a need for them. :) I have an AR-15 which is practically a semi-auto version of a M4 Carbine and that's just good enough for me. I use it for self-defense and enjoyment at the shooting range.

P.S. Bazookas haven't been in use since the Vietnam War. Just a heads up. :D

If you were living in a really free society you wouldn't need bits of paper, and you - or the black crack adict next door - could buy anything he wanted.

[The Khagan]

Never said your view was illegitimate.

[poiuytrewq0987]

[QUOTE=Void;185689]

If you were living in a really free society you wouldn't need bits of paper, and you - or the black crack adict next door - could buy anything he wanted.

Whatever you know what I am talking about. You're just being stupid now.

[Wulfhere]

[QUOTE=Wulfhere;185691]

Whatever you know what I am talking about. You're just being stupid now.

And surely you know what I'm talking about. Drawing the line somewhere, but there must be a line.

[poiuytrewq0987]

[QUOTE=Void;185693]

And surely you know what I'm talking about. Drawing the line somewhere, but there must be a line.

And a draconian USA like the UK is not the answer.

[Arrow Cross]

The quote-fail is strong in this one.

[Wulfhere]

[QUOTE=Wulfhere;185695]

And a draconian USA like the UK is not the answer.

But you're defining "draconian" in a way that simply suits your opinion. The UK isn't draconian by any standards - there are many things wrong with the current political climate, but being draconian is not one of them. Rather too liberal, in fact, especially when it comes to promoting the non-indigenous population.

[Lithium]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ee/Bulgaria_Simeon_I_%28893-927%29.svg/627px-Bulgaria_Simeon_I_%28893-927%29.svg.png

[Osweo]

This to some extent follows the practice of Stankevich's map in White Ruthenian's post:
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/6568/angliairredenta.gif
I wasn't sure about a few things in the North... Galloway (Wigtownshire here, extreme southern point of contemporary Scotland) is almost identical to Cumberland in terms of ethnic ingredients,indeed. I refrained from taking Edinburgh, despite historical precedent, deciding to show the Scots some undeserved mercy. No doubt they'll kick up a fuss and force me to seize everything up to the Ochils anyway... ;)
I've given the Welsh back Oswestry and a few other Marcher lands, as a sign of good faith, and to prevent the map of England being sullied by too many blatantly Welsh-named hamlets and farmsteads. I do demand at least autonomy for the Englishries of Dyfed, however, and will probably annex them directly. :)
The Cornish get North Petherwin too, as the Tamar will henceforth be the new border, nice and simple...
:thumb001:

*************************************

I made this awhile ago.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/innocent456/velikabulgaria.png?t=1268959845
Why so modest?! Dobrudja should be more of a priority than Bythinia, no? ;)

All hail the new Slavic Empire! :D

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/2126/slavicempire.png
And again! Take Manchuria and Persia! Mongolia and Eastern Turkestan were in the Russian sphere too. Better than bloody Sudan! :p

That may have been, but the age of the Greeks is long over. It's the age of the Slavs now.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/Svartmetall/Misc/gothmog.jpg
:rofl:

[poiuytrewq0987]

*************************************

Why so modest?! Dobrudja should be more of a priority than Bythinia, no? ;)

Dobrudja isn't as valuable as is the control of the Bosphorus Strait. A lot of trade comes through this strait, and a lot of oil too. If we controlled the strait then countries like Russia will be more closely aligned to us because of our control of such valuable route.


And again! Take Manchuria and Persia! Mongolia and Eastern Turkestan were in the Russian sphere too. Better than bloody Sudan! :pAfrican land is actually very valuable, it's just that black people don't know how to exploit them and thus they will be left for us. :D


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/Svartmetall/Misc/gothmog.jpg


:rofl:It hurts for me to laugh right now after you made that comparison...

[Svanhild]

http://home.versatel.nl/gerardvonhebel/germany1938%202.GIF

and add a small corridor to Danzig and East Prussia.

[Wotan88]

Oh, thread enforcing chauvinism! How lovely! But if we talk about that, then "Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth from sea to sea":

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Rzecz2nar.png

But I don't think it's realistic. More suitable borders:

http://home.versatel.nl/gerardvonhebel/germany1938%202.GIF

We lose Silesia, East Prussia and Pomerania but instead we have centre of Polish culture - east, so called "Kresy Wschodnie" which belong to Belarus and Ukraine now. So this would "move" Polish nation further to the east, but we would have more adequate terrains to our history.

***

I generally think that we should either let our modern borders remain as it is now or make 1939 borders return since after WW2 a lot of border changes have emerged.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Oh, thread enforcing chauvinism! How lovely! But if we talk about that, then "Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth from sea to sea":



But I don't think it's realistic. More suitable borders:



We lose Silesia, East Prussia and Pomerania but instead we have centre of Polish culture - east, so called "Kresy Wschodnie" which belong to Belarus and Ukraine now. So this would "move" Polish nation further to the east, but we would have more adequate terrains to our history.

***

I generally think that we should either let our modern borders remain as it is now or make 1939 borders return since after WW2 a lot of border changes have emerged.

I want Bulgaria's 1913 borders back. :D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Balkan_belligerants_1914.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

Osweo, this one has Dobruja included. :D

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/innocent456/velikabulgaria2-1.png?t=1269197789

[Tabiti]

Since when the Asiatic Western part Turkey is supposed to be Bulgarian?:eek:
We never passed the Bosphorus...

[poiuytrewq0987]

Since when the Asiatic Western part Turkey is supposed to be Bulgarian?:eek:
We never passed the Bosphorus...


I know but the Bosphorus is of important strategic value for us to control. If we want to be a regional power then having full control of the strait is a must. And I'm sure our people won't mind having extra land too. :)

[Tabiti]

And I'm sure our people won't mind having extra land too. :)
The thoughts of our neighbors after Balkan and World wars;)

[Óttar]

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/6568/angliairredenta.gif

You took Dumfriesshire?! My aunt wouldn't like that. When she goes there, she wants to be in Scotland, the land of her ancestors. :p

And how do you administer the two English-held coastal portions of Wales, cut off as they are from the mainland?

Anyhow...

Seeing as I'm a member of Nova Roma, member of gens Cassia and thus a citizen of the Imperium Romanum in exile...

Imperial flag

http://webspace.webring.com/people/xa/apollonia/spqr.jpg

Map

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Roman_Empire_Map.png

The old Roman calendar will be enforced and the dating would be A.U.C. ab urbe condita "from the founding of the city", so it would be the year 2863 AUC.

Gentilitas Spiritualita Italica would assist in rebuilding the ancient Roman religious colleges and priesthoods. They shall receive state funding. The statue of Victory will be reinstalled on the Palatine. All Vatican vaults will be open to the public, so humanity may find out the knowledge that has been hidden from them. There would be religious freedom, the only requirement being that community representatives sprinkle incense on the altar to the gods. To not do so would be bad manners and punishable with imprisonment. Repeat or habitual offenders will be fed to the lions, and their memory subjected to Damnatio Memoriae, a complete annihilation of any record of their existence.

As a compromise between the two Roman systems empire and republic, there shall be a Constitutional Empire, where the power of the emperor is checked. Latin shall be the language of administration.

[Arrow Cross]

Since when the Asiatic Western part Turkey is supposed to be Bulgarian?:eek:
We never passed the Bosphorus...
Well, m'lady, Constantinople certainly won't retake itself for Christendom. :cool:

[Osweo]

You took Dumfriesshire?! My aunt wouldn't like that. When she goes there, she wants to be in Scotland, the land of her ancestors. :p
I retook Dumfriesshire. It pained me to have the finest English runic inscription just beyond the English border... And if your aunt doesn't like it, well, let me know when she gets a seat on the UN security council, and I might take this into account... ;)

And how do you administer the two English-held coastal portions of Wales, cut off as they are from the mainland?
This reminds me of Svanhild's post, and the 'need' for a Polish Corridor... Something I never figured out was the need for that. I mean, the Gerries had boats, didn't they?! Bristol is one of the finest ports in England, and can keep Pembrokeshire going, if necessary, as could Bideford and Barnstaple, just south across the Severn Sea. But is Wales really going to try to cause a fuss here? I wouldn't recommend it... :cool:

[Piparskeggr]

Seeing as I'm a member of Nova Roma, member of gens Cassia and thus a citizen of the Imperium Romanum in exile...

ORLY...

Publius Ullerius Stephanus Venator here, once known as Stephanus Ullerius Venator Piperbarbus...I count your Paterfamilias as a friend.

Keeping up on Byzantium Novum?

[Óttar]

Keeping up on Byzantium Novum?
Salve Piparbarbe!

I was not aware of Byzantium Novum. I appreciate their acknowlegement of ancient Roman and Hellenistic religion, and their Victory temple. Very interesting, I'll have to check it out later.

Have you heard of Mithracon by any chance? I'm planning on going so long as enough people sign up and it isn't cancelled. :)

[Piparskeggr]

Salve Piparbarbe!

(snip)Have you heard of Mithracon by any chance? I'm planning on going so long as enough people sign up and it isn't cancelled. :)

I have read the reports about Mithracon for many years, having been with Nova Roma since July 1998.

While I studied Mithraism some along the road to Asatru, it didn't "sing" for me.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Osweo
This reminds me of Svanhild's post, and the 'need' for a Polish Corridor...

Pfff too much effort, just annex the bloody country and finish the job Hengest started.:cool:

Sorry Arawn your people can become English or live on a reservation, Anglesey perhaps?:D:p

[Turkophagos]

http://pursuingholiness.com/wp-content/uploads/absolut-world-mexico-map.jpg


:whistle:

[Amapola]

http://www.elemat.es/es/04_distribucion/mapa_espana.gif
Plus that :D

http://www.xn--roselln-q0a.com/image/rosellon-mapa.jpg

[Turkophagos]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Imperio_Ruso.PNG

[poiuytrewq0987]

What Europe might have looked like if Central Powers won the war. I know, I know I have too much time on my hands. :D

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5465/centralpowerspostww1.png

[Bard]

I'm part of the german reich, fuck yeah.

[Svanhild]

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5465/centralpowerspostww1.png
Sorry Void, but No! More than half of the Balkans as a part of my country? Couldn't get any worse. :wink

[RoyBatty]

Sorry Void, but No! More than half of the Balkans as a part of my country? Couldn't get any worse. :wink

Give them to the Austrians :D

[poiuytrewq0987]

Sorry Void, but No! More than half of the Balkans as a part of my country? Couldn't get any worse. :wink

Well, the map is purely hypothetical if the Central Powers were to win WW1. I'm pretty sure Austria-Hungary isn't going to just give up control of their Balkan territories just because they feel like it... Considering how Osterreich went to war with Serbia so it only made sense for them to gain most of Serbian territory. The Vardar portion under the control of Serbia annexed to the Bulgaria because at that time the people there called themselves Bulgarian, and spoke Bulgarian (similar to how Austria speaks a German language and is connected with Germany in every way). The Bulgarian military essentially won much of the battles against the Greeks and Serbs until the French and the English intervened and pretty much reversed our military fortunes (if the Ottomans didn't fail miserably in defending their territories against the British then it probably would've never happened).

[Äike]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/61/Estonian_War_of_Independence%2C_map.JPG

[Albion]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/The_British_Empire.png

Lol, I thought you hated Britain and the British Empire? If the British Empire came back you know Mercia would have no chance at independence.

[Wulfhere]

Lol, I thought you hated Britain and the British Empire? If the British Empire came back you know Mercia would have no chance at independence.

I don't hate Britain or the British Empire at all. I just think the wrong people were in charge.

[Jarl]

I like this one:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Nie_jestesmy_tu_od_wczoraj.jpg

and that one:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2u7snsy.jpg

:P

[Albion]

I don't hate Britain or the British Empire at all. I just think the wrong people were in charge.

Breaking away from Britain won't change that. There would be many corrupt people amongst the Mercians who would bring the country down.

[Wulfhere]

Breaking away from Britain won't change that. There would be many corrupt people amongst the Mercians who would bring the country down.

Our reorganisation of society is intended to deal with that.

[Svanhild]

I like this one:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Nie_jestesmy_tu_od_wczoraj.jpg

and that one:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2u7snsy.jpg


That were the screwy ideas of some Polish media and politicians in 1938 and 1939. Raising a claim on Eastern Germany and war cries about beating the niemieckis with your outstanding Polish army in a few days. The appropriate German answer reached your country on 1st September 1939. :wink

http://www.aref.de/kalenderblatt/2004/pics/westerplatte_danzig_schleswig-holstein.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

That were the screwy ideas of some Polish media and politicians in 1938 and 1939. Raising a claim on Eastern Germany and war cries about beating the niemieckis with your outstanding Polish army in a few days. The appropriate German answer reached your country on 1st September 1939. :wink

http://www.aref.de/kalenderblatt/2004/pics/westerplatte_danzig_schleswig-holstein.jpg

Grad Większa Polska! :D:p

[Albion]

Our reorganisation of society is intended to deal with that.
But wouldn't it be better and easier to fix England rather than kick it in the groin by declaring Mercian independence?

[Wulfhere]

But wouldn't it be better and easier to fix England rather than kick it in the groin by declaring Mercian independence?

It's always better to put one's own house in order first, then lead by example.

[Albion]

It's always better to put one's own house in order first, then lead by example.

I'm not replying to this here. I've created another Mercia thread. I hope you can access it this time. I don't think other threads are the right place to be squatting with the Mercia conversation.

The Mercia thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=194536#post194536)

[Jarl]

Grad Większa Polska! :D:p

Jawohl!

http://www.daburna.de/Bilder/Blog/bevoelkerungsentwicklung_deutschland_2006-2025.png

http://www.zdwa.de/zdwa/schuelerprojekte/Praktikum_Robert_Behm/Robert.jpg

http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/9/2298/m2298399.jpg



Whopsie!


Here we go!

http://www.ctdlib.org/images/front/germaniaslavica.jpg

Vindico Polabie! Laus ut Germania Slavica!




P.S.


This one is nice too:

http://wwwg.uni-klu.ac.at/spw/oenf/name1-Dateien/image004.jpg

Slavic toponyms in Austria!

and Germany:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/thumb/1/1b/Ortsnamenendung-itz.png/472px-Ortsnamenendung-itz.png


Uch ach! We don't even need to convert you! You are all krypto-Slavs anyway! :P

[Jarl]

Now, Ladies and Gentlemen!


Especially...



...for the famed pinnacle of German magnanimosity...



...Herr Zyklopp!




Introducing (yes, oh yes!)....




Bavaria Slavica!


http://www.hdbg.eu/karten/karten/vorschau/140.jpg

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria_Slavica

http://help.xs-software.com/helpimages/kw/Nation1.jpg

[Zyklop]

Introducing (yes, oh yes!)....

Bavaria Slavica!Cool, but I wonder what makes these Slavic regions specifically Polish. Why not Czech for example? Wanking off to Panslavia again?

Nice one too:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Rzeczpospolita_Rozbiory_3.png/765px-Rzeczpospolita_Rozbiory_3.png

[Jarl]

Cool, but I wonder what makes these Slavic regions specifically Polish. Why not Czech for example? Wanking off to Panslavia again?

Nice one too:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Rzeczpospolita_Rozbiory_3.png/765px-Rzeczpospolita_Rozbiory_3.png

Bavaria Slavica was indeed ethnically and linguistically closer to the Czechoslovakian, or perhaps Serbolusatian group.


However, everything East of the Elbe and North of the Spree was exactly of the very same Lechitic stock as the tribes that later formed the Polish nation. In fact, both the Obodrites and the Veleti came to Germania Slavica from Western Poland in VII-VIII centuries, bearing a very similar type of material culture and language, quite distinct to the more Southerly Serbolusatian and Czech-Bohemian cultures.

Still in XV century, a famous Polish historian - Dlugossus wrote that the whole Western Pomerania (by that time still an independent state ruled by a local Pomeranian dynasty, related to Polish Piasts) once spoke in the "Polish tongue" though, "corrupted by German".


Look at the vicinity of Schwerin. At Eastern Mecklenburg and find me German village names. You will get a handful at most... in an ocean of Grabows ,Gustrows, Rambows, and other toponyms which can be found exactly the same in Pomerania and Polonia.


Not to mention the whole Vorpommern. Particulalry the islands of Rugen and Usedom, which are principally germanised Polabian strongholds. The ducal house of Western Pomerania and the princes of Rugen were related to Piasts. In fact, Pomeranian dukes bore the same coat of arms as some of the most famous Polish noble houses -the Griffin.


Havelan/Stodoran duke Jaksa was most likely from Lesser Poland nobility. He also sought refuge in Poland after the demise of his domain. After the Northern crusades many Obodrites and Sprewians took refuge or were sold as slaves (by Germans and Danes) to the Polish Piast principalities.

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/Bulgarian_National_Revival.png/795px-Bulgarian_National_Revival.png

[Jarl]

That Mesco ruled Pomerania and Wolin, while his son - Boleslaw I became the ruler of Lusatia and Milzen - is a well known fact mentioned by German, Czech and Polish chronicles alike. His great-great-grandson Boleslaw Wrymouth became the ruler of whole Pomerania.


In fact - unification of Western Pomerania under the Griffin dynasty was possible only because the Griffins became vassals of the duke of Poland with his full political and military support.

It was Boleslaw who enforced and promoted Christianity in Pomerania and supported Pomeranian raids against Danes and Norwegians (like sacking of Konungahela). Thanks to Boleslaw's, Eastern Pomerania (Pomerelia) became for long an integral Polish domain. Western Pomerania maintained close linke with Poland.

Still in XIV century there were serious plans for unification of Western Pomerania and Poland, designed by the Pomeranian duke Casimir IV and king Casimir the Great. The last Polish king of the "indigenous" Piast dynasty, leaving no heir, wanted to pass the rights to the Polish throne onto the Griffin duke.

This was strongly supported by the nobility of Greater Poland. However, a different faction took lead in the kingdom and in the aftermath the Luxembourgs and the Jagiellonians were elected.


So why the Sorbs were indeed a separate ethnic group. Related both to Czechs and Lechites. The Polabians - Obodrites and Veleti - were Lechites. Exactly the same as Mazovians, Polans, Kashubians or Silesians. Only, they did not make it until XIX century and national awakening. Quite unfortunately...

[poiuytrewq0987]

That Mesco ruled Pomerania and Wolin, while his son - Boleslaw I became the ruler of Lusatia and Milzen. His great-great-grandson Boleslaw Wrymouth became the ruler of whole Pomerania.

So why the Sorbs were indeed a separate ethnic group. Related both to Czechs and Lechites. The Polabians - Obodrites and Veleti - were Lechites. Exactly the same as Mazovians, Polans, Kashubians or Silesians. Only, they did not make it until XIX century and national awakening. Quite unfortunately...

I find it rather interesting that the Sorbs never formed their own separate country.

[Jarl]

I find it rather interesting that the Sorbs never formed their own separate country.

By the time they underwent the national awakening in XIX century, they were already strongly germanised and utterly dependent on Germany. There was nobody else they could turn to and hope for support. XIX century was an unfrotunate time for Sorbs. Poles and Czechs were themselves being expropriated and germanised on their very own soils. However, after WW I and WW II Sorbs campaigned for autonomy, and even for support from Poland and Czech Rep. This was unsuccesful. Lloyd George feared weakning Germany too much would tip the balance in favour of France. He even objected to most cessions for Poland.

Later on, Stalin did not see any purpose in independen Lusatia. There were no gains from it. He chose to support his little puppet DDR instead as his "model" of socialism.


Lusatia:

http://www.przewodnik-sudecki.pl/dokumenty/wyszperane/mapa.jpg


Polabians were germanised long before that. Only Wendland Slavs (WEST of Elbe) held until XVIII century. By then their language was very corrupted. Interstingly, Wendish died out very quickly. Within a single or two generations.


What is fascinating. By the end of XVIII century, there were still 500 people in Luneburg kreis who would still consider themselves as "Wends". Even though they would not speak the native tongue.


However Polabians were simple rural folk. Their leaders became germanised. Niklot gave rise to the house of Mecklenburg-Sterlitz and its off-shoots. His descendants are still alive. Wizlaw and the house of Rugen also quickly became germanised.


The politcal pressures from the Saxon nobles and bishops was immense. Yet in his last will Wizlaw expressed his concern and asked his descendants to "look after" his "Wendish citizens". Pomeranian dukes maintained close links to Poland until XV century. Even during the reign of Jagiellonians Pomerania was within the sphere of Polish influence. For some timpe the Duchy of Western Pomernia - Slupsk (Stolp) was a Polish fief.


However, XV and XVI century brought the end to this. Polabians became germanised. They slowly blended with the Saxon colonists. Their elites lost interest in ethnic purity. They have never really even expressed it - often looking more to their personal benefits coming from orgasnised taxed German settlements.

[Zyklop]

These regions were sparsely populated in the early medieval period, calling them Slavic "strongholds" is a bit far fetched. So is claiming every toponym with the elements wend and wind or the suffix -ow as Slavic. The first are common German words and are found in place-names all across Germany:


http://i42.tinypic.com/15cgcoz.jpg

Additionally there are also places in West Germany going by the ending -ow without having indication of Slavic settlement, like the district Spradow in North Rhine Westphalia, which indicates that -ow often is just a different form of German -au (Germanic ahwo/ouwe) describing a watery region.

[Jarl]

Sparsely populated? Zyklop, the truth is that Western Pomerania had a Slavic majority.

Rugen and Western Pomerania:

http://www.wizlaw.de/assets/images/Rujana-Karte2.jpg

(it is from a German website).

http://i41.tinypic.com/35l4vic.jpg

These are facts.



Slavic settlements of Mecklenburg and Wagrien. This is a tiny fraction. I could not be asked to tag everything. Soon I realised it is not even feasible using google maps.

http://i42.tinypic.com/11b51zl.jpg

You also saw the other map I posted on previous page.


Fehrman about 50% Slavic villages.

Usedom and Rugen about 75-88% Slavic toponyms.

[Jarl]

These regions were sparsely populated in the early medieval period, calling them Slavic "strongholds" is a bit far fetched. So is claiming every toponym with the elements wend and wind or the suffix -ow as Slavic.

No. Not with some general theme/element like "wen" or "wind" but with a specific prefix called "Wendisch" or "Windisch". These were Wendish Polabian villages with different laws and rights.

Also, quite often, Germans borrowed a local name for their village. In this case the old Polabian village would be called "Kleine" or "Old".



I am not certain about -au endung. It can definitely be a germanised Slavic ending, though perhaps does not have to. Suffix "-ow" is:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namen_auf_-ow

-ow ([-oː], mit stummen «w»), ist eine Ortsnamen- und Familiennamenendung slawischen Ursprungs, die vor allem in Nordostdeutschland zu finden ist. Ortsnamen auf -ow finden sich auch in Polen, Namen in oder aus Tschechien oder der Slowakei schreiben sich dagegen in der Form -ov. In diesen Sprachen wird der Konsonant im Auslaut allerdings gesprochen.

seems to be quite Polabian-specific:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/thumb/a/a7/Ortsnamenendung-ow.png/472px-Ortsnamenendung-ow.png


You will not find many Grabows, Gustrows, Rambows and Treptows west of the Elbe.


That Slavic compent and tradition can not just be seen in toponyms, but also in local varities of Low German, like Pommersch. In architecture, village types, in dress and in physical traits and even surnames. Toponomys are the most abudant. Marks although hardly bitten by the tooth of time are still traceble.

[Pallantides]

The Norasian Empire
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/9815/norasia.jpg

Great Khan
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac316/Pallantides/stuff/kazakh.jpg
"There will be no dawn for Nordids!"

[Jarl]

Additionally there are also places in West Germany going by the ending -ow without having indication of Slavic settlement, like the district Spradow in North Rhine Westphalia, which indicates that -ow often is just a different form of German -au (Germanic ahwo/ouwe) describing a watery region.

As for -OW ending, "Spradow" is rather an exception from the rule:

Das Dorf Spradow existiert seit 1116. Als „Kirche Spredow“ reicht die Geschichte aber wohl noch weiter zurück. Zum 850-jährigen Bestehen entstand der Förderverein Spradow 2000. Dieser veranstaltet, wie auch das Nachbardorf Dünne, regelmäßig Dorffeste, die den Zusammenhalt und das Bewusstsein der Gemeinde stärken sollen.

Der Name leitet sich möglicherweise von den altgermanischen Wörtern „spraedan“ (dt. so viel wie „ausbreiten“) und „ahwo“ (dt. so viel wie „Bach“) ab und kann also als „ausgebreitete Aue“ übersetzt werden. Das w am Ende von Spradow ist ein stummes Dehnungszeichen und wird nicht gesprochen, sondern verlängert das vorhergehende o. Woher es stammt, ist unbekannt, da es als Dehnungszeichen in Westfalen sehr ungewöhnlich ist und eher in Ostdeutschland auftaucht. Andere Städtenamen in der Region, die auch auf o enden, tragen dieses w nicht (z.B. Vlotho oder Lemgo).[1]



The "W" in SpradoW is silent and...of an unusual, "unknown" origin.



It is btw. quite remarkable that ending -itz is more widespread:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/thumb/1/1b/Ortsnamenendung-itz.png/472px-Ortsnamenendung-itz.png

While -ow seems smaller:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/thumb/a/a7/Ortsnamenendung-ow.png/472px-Ortsnamenendung-ow.png

But this is not the case. One look at Wagrien or Meclenburg will tell you -ows reach further West.

[Äike]

The Swedish Empire:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/LocationSwedishEmpire.png

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/32/4532-004-F659264D.gif

http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/Poland/schwed_pol.jpg

[Jarl]

The Swedish Empire:


Vast stretches of coniferous jungles held for less than a 100 years, can hardly be considered "an empire".


The Jagiellonian domain - XV century:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Jagiellonowie.png

For some reason it omits Moldavia... It was a Jagiellonian fief in the first half of XV century.

[Pallantides]

Denmark-Norway
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/scandinavia/dk16c.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Denmark-Norway_in_1780.PNG

The Empire of Danish King Cnut the great
http://www.cit.griffith.edu.au/~s285238/Nordic/Nordic-1028AD.gif

Kalmar Union
http://www.cit.griffith.edu.au/~s285238/Nordic/Nordic-1460AD.gif

[Murphy]

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9092/europewiki.png

Gaelic Empire of Éire.

[Pallantides]

If Norway was united with Sweden and Denmark, then we could wage war on the Baltic countries for fun just like the Baltic Crusades of the 12 and 13th century. :D

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9092/europewiki.png

Gaelic Empire of Éire.

The Celts got their rear kicked by the Romans a looooooooong time ago. Sorry. :D

[Pallantides]

Norway and Denmark will never be Celtic.

[Murphy]

Norway and Denmark will never be Celtic.

Of course not. But the Viking's did have a presence in Ireland. It's time to return the favour ;).

[Pallantides]

Of course not. But the Viking's did have a presence in Ireland. It's time to return the favour ;).

You can have Western Norway, most of them descend from Swarthy Pictish and Irish thralls anyway.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Of course not. But the Viking's did have a presence in Ireland. It's time to return the favour ;).

How exactly? Celtic is barely spoken nowadays.

[Murphy]

You can have Western Norway, most of them descend from Swarthy Pictish and Irish thralls anyway.

This may be acceptable. But I want 7 East-Norwegian wives as my price for not pushing further into Norway.

[Murphy]

How exactly? Celtic is barely spoken nowadays.

The Irish are not just Celts. Read G. K. Chesterton's essay "On Celts and Celticism".

[Zyklop]

No. Not with some general theme/element like "wen" or "wind" but with a specific prefix called "Wendisch" or "Windisch". These were Wendish Polabian villages with different laws and rights.
Prefix windisch doesn't overly match Slavic settlement areas either.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2192b08.jpg


Also, quite often, Germans borrowed a local name for their village. In this case the old Polabian village would be called "Kleine" or "Old".For example?

I am not certain about -au endung. It can definitely be a germanised Slavic ending, though perhaps does not have to. The opposite could be even more likely: -ow occassionallybeing a slavicised Germanic suffix. These regions were not unsettled before Slavs arrived and maybe simply renamed. Rügen was named after the Rugians. They also once settled Usedom.

[The Lawspeaker]

Norway and Denmark will never be Celtic.
And neither will the Netherlands.

[Murphy]

And neither will the Netherlands.

I marked the Ntherlands so I could be your ethnic brother :D!

[The Lawspeaker]

I marked the Ntherlands so I could be your ethnic brother :D!
Now that I think about it... the Southern parts were once Celtic. So the Germanic Dutch could have more Celtic blood then they would think today.

[Svanhild]

Don't be ridiculous, Jarl. Your rather abstruse maps show awry interpretations and speculations of Polish major power fantasizers. :wink Are you collecting them in all the weeks when you're inactive? And now you come back and spew them out in the thread. I'm not impressed at all. Not every village with Wind has to do with Wenden. On this occasion we could talk about all the Polish villages and towns with German names and a decided German past: Stettin. Danzig. Bromberg. Breslau. Oppeln. Posen. Landsberg. Waldenburg. Grünberg. Köslin. Stolp. Allenstein. Or about Sudetenland. Polish claims on German land is a reversion of virtualities. German land was taken away and Mio. of German citizens were killed or expelled. Stop winding up the other readers.

[Jarl]

Don't be ridiculous, Jarl. Your rather abstruse maps show awry interpretations and speculations of Polish major power fantasizers. :wink

My maps are taken from the German sources ;)

http://www.wizlaw.de/assets/images/Rujana-Karte2.jpg

Nice huh? Fehmarn:


Dörfer[2]

Slawengründungen

Bannesdorf (Bauerndorf und Kirchort), Dänschendorf, Gahlendorf, Gammendorf-Siedendorf, Gollendorf, Hinrichsdorf, Klausdorf, Kopendorf, Lemkendorf, Meeschendorf, Puttgarden, Püttsee, Sahrensdorf, Schlagsdorf, Sulsdorf, Vitzdorf

Schöne "Deutsche" Dörfer? Ja???


... genau! :D


On this occasion we could talk about all the Polish villages and towns with German names and a decided German past: Stettin. Danzig. Bromberg. Breslau. Oppeln. Posen. Landsberg. Waldenburg. Grünberg. Köslin. Stolp. Allenstein. Or about Sudetenland.

Do I deny that? No??? And that does not change the fact that parts of Eastern Germany have more Slavic Ortsnamen than German. And have had a substantial germanised Slavic component. Both facts are independent.



Prefix windisch doesn't overly match Slavic settlement areas either.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2192b08.jpg


Actually they do. Apart from the single site on the border of Switzerland and Germany. However, not all Wends were glued to the land. In Medieval Ages feudals often invited or took settlers from places far away. One would have to look at individual cases. I doubt that it was called "Windisch" with no link or connection to the Wends. The fact that a single village in Switzerland has "windisch" in its name does not disprove the fact that the name is associated almost exclusively with Wends:


http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windisch_(Slowenisch)

http://www.21403-wendisch-evern.de/anderewd.htm

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenden

[b]Anm.: Ortsnamen auf Windisch- südlich der Donau sind dem eingangs erläuterten Siedlungsraum der Karantanen/Slowenen zuzuordnen, und nicht hier angeführt, siehe dazu Windisch (Slowenisch)


There is a whole list. Look up those names. For instance most towns in Western Germany although do not match the range of continuous Wendisch settlement are still linked to Wends. They were named after Wendisch settlers or slaves. For instance:


Wenden - near Ebhausen in Western Germany was named after Wends: Der Ort wurde 1406 erstmals urkundlich erwähnt. In früher Zeit findet sich auch die Schreibweise „Winden“ oder „Wynna“. Der Name deutet auf eine mögliche Gründung in der Karolinger Zeit als Karl der Große die slawischen Wenden in anderen Teilen seines Reiches angesiedelt hatte.











For example?

The opposite could be even more likely: -ow occassionallybeing a slavicised Germanic suffix. These regions were not unsettled before Slavs arrived and maybe simply renamed. Rügen was named after the Rugians. They also once settled Usedom.


No, Slavs did not take German Ortsnamen. Rügen's name in Slavic was "Rana" from a local tribe of Ranen. If there were any German Ortsnamen in Rugen before VI century they were all wiped off. And still up to this day:

http://www.wizlaw.de/html/polabisch.html

Auf Rügen bestand im Mittelalter stets eine dichte slawische Siedlungsstruktur. Noch zu Beginn des 14. Jahrhunderts wurden viele Orte mit slawischen Namen zum ersten Mal erwähnt. Von den etwa 600 mittelalterlichen Orten trugen 80% slawische, 15% deutsche und 5% gemischte Namen.





As for the suffix -ow it is almost exclusively Slavic-Wendisch, and this is what GERMAN wiki states:


http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namen_auf_-ow


...curiously giving the single exception of "Spradow". However this name has a silent "w".



Another website is:

http://www.onomastik.com/on_grundwoerter.php



. Slawische Ortsnamen
Das Land östlich der Elbe war bis ins 13. Jahrhundert hinein vorwiegend von Slawen besiedelt. Selbstverständlich prägten sie in dieser Zeit die dortige Namenlandschaft. Die Ortsnamen im Osten klingen einfach anders. Viele enden auf -in, -ow, -au, -itz und was vor dem Suffix kommt, hat selten Anklänge an gängigen deutschen Wortschatz.


Dennoch haben sie prinzipiell den gleichen inhaltlichen Bezug wie deutsche Ortsnamen, nämlich Raum- bzw. Personenbezug oder Eigenbezeichnung. Im Slawischen stehen ebenfalls die gleichen Bildungsweisen zur Verfügung, aber im Gegensatz zum Deutschen, wo Komposita vorherrschen, werden slawische Namen vorwiegend durch Ableitung (Derivation) gebildet.

Typische toponymische Suffixe sind:

-ica/-nica/-ovica
-jane (für sog. Bewohnernamen, z.B Dresdjane – Dresden, "die Leute, die im Wald wohnen")
-(i)n
-ov
-ava
-nik oder
-sk.
Patronymischen Charakters ist -ici/-ovici und wurde v.a. verwendet, um die Siedlung nach der Zugehörigkeit der Leute zu einer Person zu benennen, als „Der Ort der Leute des ...“.
Possesivische (Besitz anzeigende) Namen hingegen enden auf –j, -in oder -ov. Als Ableitungsbasis können Appellative oder Eigennamen (Personennamen, geographische Namen) verwendet werden.

...and now German Ortsnamen:


5. Grundwörter in Ortsnamen
Angeführt seien einige typische deutsche Grundwörter, die in Namen von Orten auftreten, und deren Bedeutung:

-ach - geht häufig auf aha zurück, ein Wasserwort (gehört zu lat. aqua)
-bach - entspricht dem Wort Bach und begleitet oft ein Adjektiv, das die Qualität des Baches beschreibt, im Bestimmungswort
–beke oder –beck - entspricht dem Wort Bach im Niederdeutschen
-berg, -burg - bezeichnet in jedem Falle eine erhöht liegende Stelle. Obwohl sie zumeist in ihrer heutigen Bedeutung verwandt wurden, überschnitten sie sich, so dass -burg auch dort auftreten kann, wo nur ein Berg war.
-born, -brun - für einen Brunnen
-brücke, -brügge - für Stellen, an denen es eine Brücke gab
-dorf, -druf, -dorp, -trop, -trup - kennzeichnete bereits bei der Entstehung eines Namens eine dortige Siedlung
-eck, -egg - Ecke, Kante, Spitze, oder eine Stelle in einem "Winkel"
-furt, -fort, -ford - tritt bei Flussdurchquerungen (Furten) auf. Im Bestimmungswort sind Adjektive nicht selten.
-heim, -hem, -em - wie -dorf deutet -heim auf eine bestehende Siedlung hin. Abgeschwächt gehören auch andere Elemente dazu
-holz, -holt - deutet auf einen Wald hin
-hausen, -husen - ist ebenfalls ein Grundwort in Siedlungsnamen. Wegen des Lokativs ist es mit der Endung -en fest geworden (i.e. bei den ...hausen)
-leben, -leve - ein Siedlungsnamengrundwort für "die Hinterlassenschaft von"
-kirchen, –kerken - wo eine Kirche vorhanden war, Hochdeutsch und Niederdeutsch
-rode, -rade, -reuth - hat die Bedeutung "Rodeplatz". Im Oberdeutschen sind auch -reut und -riet gängig
-stadt, stet u.ä. - leitet sich von der Stätte her, nicht von der Statt
-werder - ist ein altes Wort für die Flussinsel
Hier nicht angeführt sind -ingen, -ungen u.ä. weil es sich bei diesen um Suffixe handelt.

and


Symbolisiert ein slawischer Ortsname keinen Begriff aus der Natur oder der menschlichen Tätigkeit, so handelt es sich um einen Personennamen, meist um den des Gründers oder des “Oberhaupts” des Dorfes. Endet ein solcher Ortsname auf “-itz” oder “-nz”, bedeutet er “der Familienverband des ...” (F.d.). Endungen auf “-ow”, “-in”, “-gast” oder “-ratz” bezeichnen “den Ort des ...” (O.d.). Bei den slawischen Namen mit umstrittener Bedeutung ist das Feld leer gelassen worden. Mittelalterliche deutsche Gründungen sind mit (dt.) und Orte mit slawisch-deutschen Namen mit (sl.-dt.) gekennzeichnet.



See the difference? Check it yourself. I will be deeply shocked if you can find a source which states that suffix -OW or -OV is Germanic.




P.S.

What is that single "Windisch" village near Zurich?


What tool are you using for getting those maps:

http://i42.tinypic.com/15cgcoz.jpg

...?

[Jarl]

Not every village with Wind has to do with Wenden.

Not all with "wind" or "wend", but all double-names with "Windisch" or "Wendisch" in the first part.


For example?

http://www.lueneburger-heide-aktuell.de/

http://wwwg.uni-klu.ac.at/eeo/Schich_GermaniaSlavica.pdf

http://wapedia.mobi/de/Deutsche_Ostsiedlung?t=3.

Read.

[Amarantine]

hmmm so you all just "pretending"....

[Osweo]

Actually they do. Apart from the single site on the border of Switzerland and Germany. However, not all Wends were glued to the land. In Medieval Ages feudals often invited or took settlers from places far away. One would have to look at individual cases. I doubt that it was called "Windisch" with no link or connection to the Wends.

Indeed.

There's an English parallel from my own Heimat or Malenkaja Rodzina... ;)

'Welsh Whittle'

I'm used to seeing traces of the Wealas in Waltons, Walshaws, etc. but to see a name with actual 'WELSH' in the title amazed me. On further investigation, it seems the 'Welsh' part is the surname of a former owner, written eight or so centuries ago as Richard le Waleys.

Was Richard himself Welsh, though? Not certainly, but he obviously had a link there. Sometimes, ethnic nicknames get given to men who merely spent a lot of their career in a certain area. There are also cases of merchants being named after the people they often traded with and whom they visited a lot on expeditions.

For a modern example, General Gordon of the 19th Century was referred to as 'Chinese Gordon' for his exploits in the Middle Kingdom...

Perhaps some of the more western Windisch- Ortsnamen have a similar origin.

The disruptions of the early Carolingian period and the resultant 'human trafficking' make the displaced Wendisch serfs option more likely, though.

[Zyklop]

Actually they do. Apart from the single site on the border of Switzerland and Germany. However, not all Wends were glued to the land. In Medieval Ages feudals often invited or took settlers from places far away. One would have to look at individual cases. I doubt that it was called "Windisch" with no link or connection to the Wends. The fact that a single village in Switzerland has "windisch" in its name does not disprove the fact that the name is associated almost exclusively with Wends:Wind in German means exactly the same as wind in English, -isch is an adjective form. Not an exotic element for toponyms at all.


Wenden - near Ebhausen in Western Germany was named after Wends: Der Ort wurde 1406 erstmals urkundlich erwähnt. In früher Zeit findet sich auch die Schreibweise „Winden“ oder „Wynna“. Der Name deutet auf eine mögliche Gründung in der Karolinger Zeit als Karl der Große die slawischen Wenden in anderen Teilen seines Reiches angesiedelt hatte.möglich = possible

Exact search for Wenden:

http://i42.tinypic.com/102l2xk.jpg

Exact search for Winden:
http://i42.tinypic.com/148n5ae.jpg

Examples:

Winden (Pfalz)
Der Ortsname "Winden" wird auf die Siedlung "In den Weiden" zurückgeführt. Diese Siedlung soll aus drei Höfen bestanden haben, von denen der Rosenhof der größte gewesen sein soll.
Winden (Kreuzau)
Der Name des Dorfes kann auf das lateinische vinum = Wein zurückgeführt werden. In der Dürener Mundart (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mundart) wurde der Ort „Wengde“ = Weng (Wein) genannt. Heute ist mundartlich mehr die Bezeichnung „Wende“ gebräuchlich. Es ist auch nicht auszuschließen, dass der Ortsname „Winden“ in irgendeinem Zusammenhang mit der frühen keltischen Besiedlung steht. Die Ortsbezeichnung „Winden“ bezieht sich bei einigen namensgleichen Dörfern in Deutschland und Österreich auf keltische Ursprünge.
No, Slavs did not take German Ortsnamen. Germans germanised Slavic place-names during Ostsiedlung. Why shouldn't Slavs have done the same? Unless you want to claim these regions were not settled before Slavic arrival. Wouldn't surprise me if they turned Germanic settlements ending with -au into their more familiar Slavic -ow, just like Germans turned -ow into -au.

Dessau
Die erste bekannte urkundliche Erwähnung ist aus dem Jahr 1213 als Dissowe. Die Herleitung des Namens ist umstritten und kann sowohl slawisch (von tis = Eibenbaum) als auch germanisch als rauschende Aue gedeutet werden.
What tool are you using for getting those maps:http://christoph.stoepel.net/geogen/v3/Geonames.aspx
Unfortunately it doesn't work with suffixes and I haven't yet found a mapping site that let's one check for it.

[Jarl]

Wind in German means exactly the same as wind in English, -isch is an adjective form. Not an exotic element for toponyms at all.

möglich = possible

Exact search for Wenden:

http://i42.tinypic.com/102l2xk.jpg

Exact search for Winden:
http://i42.tinypic.com/148n5ae.jpg


Well, in this way "Windisch" hypothetically makes sense... sort of. However, look at what I wrote above. Villages with "Windisch" as the first part of the name were settled by Wends. This is a historical fact. And btw, do you have a Germanic etymology for "Wenden" as well?

Look at my last post. Two-part place names with "Windisch" or "Wendisch" were inhabited by Wends. Place names with "wind" or "wend" do not necessarily have to be connected to Wends. Looking at the maps above however, it seems clear that they are. Apart from few places in the West, they are restricted to Eastern parts of Germany + Wendland, West of Elbe.



Examples:
Germans germanised Slavic place-names during Ostsiedlung. Why shouldn't Slavs have done the same? Unless you want to claim these regions were not settled before Slavic arrival. Wouldn't surprise me if they turned Germanic settlements ending with -au into their more familiar Slavic -ow, just like Germans turned -ow into -au.

The problem is - Germans mostly left these lands before the Slavs came. There were large bits of desolate land in Eastern Germania at the end of Vth century.

There is no evidence that Slavs and Germans ever mixed and co-existed in East Germany, prior to Ostsiedlung.

I am not certain how possible and probable the reversal of Germanic -au to Slavic -ow is, however from what I read in the German sources, villages with -ow are:

- restricted to East Germany,

- have very often a clear Slavic ethymology, like Gustrow, Grabow, Tornow, Sukow, Warnow etc. etc.


http://christoph.stoepel.net/geogen/v3/Geonames.aspx
Unfortunately it doesn't work with suffixes and I haven't yet found a mapping site that let's one check for it.

Many thanks!


Indeed.

There's an English parallel from my own Heimat or Malenkaja Rodzina... ;)

'Welsh Whittle'

I'm used to seeing traces of the Wealas in Waltons, Walshaws, etc. but to see a name with actual 'WELSH' in the title amazed me. On further investigation, it seems the 'Welsh' part is the surname of a former owner, written eight or so centuries ago as Richard le Waleys.

Was Richard himself Welsh, though? Not certainly, but he obviously had a link there. Sometimes, ethnic nicknames get given to men who merely spent a lot of their career in a certain area. There are also cases of merchants being named after the people they often traded with and whom they visited a lot on expeditions.

For a modern example, General Gordon of the 19th Century was referred to as 'Chinese Gordon' for his exploits in the Middle Kingdom...

Perhaps some of the more western Windisch- Ortsnamen have a similar origin.

The disruptions of the early Carolingian period and the resultant 'human trafficking' make the displaced Wendisch serfs option more likely, though.

I think Medieval settlers could well explain the existence of some place names , like Wenden, outside of Slavic Germania, however I am not intent on claiming they all had to be Slavic. My point was a mere remark on the well-established fact that villages with names like "Windisch XXX" or "Wendisch XXX" were by definition Slavic.

As for the noble houses etc. they can be both Slavic or Germanic. In Pomerania many such families were local and Wendisch, like von Gustrow von Schwerin, von Krockow, von Zitzewitz, von Bork or von Kleist. These were all Pomeranian families.

Likewise, it is a well established fact that the suffix -OW -OWICE etc. is Slavic and not Germanic, and villages with such suffixes are among the oldest Slavic toponyms, restricted mostly to East Germany. Even German wiki confirms it, and (what a coincidence!) gives "Spradow" in Western Germany as the unusual exception, which although written with -ow is pronounced without "w".

[Jarl]

"Wendisch ....." Ortsnamen map:

http://i41.tinypic.com/34qn4tv.jpg


All names that begin with Wendisch or Windisch.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2whnvpi.jpg



For some reason the programme also counted in: Wandashorst, Wandschicht, Wendewisch, Wendishain, Wendschott, and two Wendtshofs. The single sites to the West are:

- Windshuse near Bremerhaven,

- Wandschicht just above the inscription "Dusseldorf",

- Windschlad near Strasbourg,

- and Windisch (without any second part) in North Switzerland.


Dont know why it counted some names that do not really begin with Wendisch or Windisch in, but you can see that apart from "Windisch" in Switzerland ALL these place names are restricted to Germania Slavica.



As for "Windisch" in Switzerland... its etymology is apparently Roman:

Die dörflichen Siedlungen, die inmitten der Lagerruinen entstanden, gehörten schon vor dem Jahr 1000 zum Eigenamt, dem ältesten Besitz der Habsburger, deren Stammsitz ca. zwei Kilometer südwestlich von Windisch liegt. Aus dem Jahr 1050 ist eine urkundliche Erwähnung von Vindinissa bekannt, 1248 taucht die Namensform Windischo auf, die heutige Namensform ist erstmals 1361 belegt. Den Ortsnamen Vindonissa hatten die Römer unverändert von den Helvetiern übernommen, er bedeutet «Ort des Vindonius».[2] Am 1. Mai 1308 wurde König Albrecht unweit des Reussübergangs von seinem Neffen Herzog Johann von Schwaben ermordet. Zum Gedenken an diese Familientragödie stiftete die königliche Witwe Elisabeth von Görz-Tirol ein Kloster, das sie Königsfelden nannte. Das Kloster, in dem Klarissen und Franziskaner lebten, erlebte unter Elisabeths Tochter Agnes von Ungarn, der Witwe des ungarischen Königs Andreas III., seine Blütezeit. 1397 schenkten die Habsburger dem Kloster das Eigenamt mit sämtlichen dazu gehörenden Herrschaftsrechten.

...and supposedly comes from Vindonissa.

[Jarl]

All Grabows in Germany:

http://i42.tinypic.com/2nrojm1.jpg

All Tornows/Tarnows:

http://i39.tinypic.com/vqr7ys.jpg

Sukows:

http://i43.tinypic.com/fmnfqq.jpg


One can play indefinitely. The -OWs are exlcusive to Germania Slavica. And in most cases have a clear Slavonic derivation. You can also try place names ending with -IN, like Demmin, Penzlin etc.

There is a massive abundance of Slavic place names around Schwerin and from there East, up to the Oder. There is even one Krakow there ;)



WEST SLAVS

http://grunwald.iatp.by/pl/POLAND_files/slowianie.jpg


The Lechitic group marked by faint red. You can see Zyklop, that the Polabians, coming from Poland, were of the very same stock as the tribes that, united under Piasts, were later called "the Poles". Then, further South of Spree, was the Serbolusatian group, and finally the Czechs.

These two groups were distinct and settled in some time after the Polabians, coming from the territory of Bohemia, Pannonia and the Danube valley.

[Svanhild]

Talking to yourself again, Jarl? Three posts in a row with an off-topic issue no one seriously cares for besides you. :wink Have it your own way! Now find me all German cities and villages with a "B" because "B" is a Slavic letter!

[Jarl]

Talking to yourself again, Jarl? Three posts in a row with an off-topic issue no one seriously cares for besides you. :wink Have it your own way! Now find me all German cities and villages with a "B" because "B" is a Slavic letter!

LOL! Not at all. As a matter of simple fact, I am talking to YOU. Since I know you are reading this thread. And you are proving me right again, you predictable noob :D

Yet, if a tiny pinch of truth penetrates your stubborn Wagnerian Pan-Germanic ignorance, then my work here is done... "B" is silly, but all Ortsnamen with -OW suffix are restricted to East Germany, and all have Slavic heritage. Play with the website given by Zyklop and check it your self (tip - use the soundex or double metaphone search).

Or try this one:

http://www.mapdist.de/

Pick any Ortsname ending with -OW. Type it in, for instance "Grabow" or "Rostow" etc. and then see the full list in the window below. Click on every name - and each will appear green on the map. Then see yourself how many such place names are in Germany and where they can be found.

You can adopt more meticulous and thorough approach. Use google map and check how many place names with -OW ending are there East and West of the Elbe. I particularly recommned Landkreis Rugen, Landkreis Nord- and Ostvorpommern, and also Bezirk Schwerin. Then you can check them on Wikipedia or google them up individually... and see yourself how many Wendish settlements were there in Germany. Many of them still Wendish-speaking up to XIV-XV century. Some up till XVIII.

[Zyklop]

Well, in this way "Windisch" hypothetically makes sense... sort of. However, look at what I wrote above. Villages with "Windisch" as the first part of the name were settled by Wends. This is a historical fact. And btw, do you have a Germanic etymology for "Wenden" as well? Of course, wenden is German for to turn, or turning. Poor megalomania to claim it as Slavic. Same goes for winden.


Look at my last post. Two-part place names with "Windisch" or "Wendisch" were inhabited by Wends. Place names with "wind" or "wend" do not necessarily have to be connected to Wends. Looking at the maps above however, it seems clear that they are. Apart from few places in the West, they are restricted to Eastern parts of Germany + Wendland, West of Elbe. Huh?
Prefix wind:
http://i42.tinypic.com/mtktg3.jpg

Prefix wend:
http://i44.tinypic.com/2isxp1f.jpg



The problem is - Germans mostly left these lands before the Slavs came. There were large bits of desolate land in Eastern Germania at the end of Vth century. Since the reason for the Völkerwanderung was overpopulation and only the population overspill left these regions (as acknowledged by Paulus Diaconus f.e.), this is rather doubtful. Additionally, why would they have left these lands if they were such attractive settlement grounds?



There is no evidence that Slavs and Germans ever mixed and co-existed in East Germany, prior to Ostsiedlung.Just looking up the already mentioned example Rügen:


In the late migration period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_period), the areas settled before by Germanic tribes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_history_of_Pomerania) were found to be settled with Slavs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs). In the case of Rugia and the adjacent mainland, where the Rugii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugii) were recorded before the migration period, Slavs first appeared in the 9th century.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rani_%28Slavic_tribe%29#cite_note-Harck15-0) In the case of Rugia, continuous settlement from the pre-Slavic to the Slavic era is suggested based on pollen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollen) analyses and name transitions,[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rani_%28Slavic_tribe%29#cite_note-7) so a Rugian remnant seems to have been assimilated. The tribal name of the former inhabitants, the Rugii, might be the root of both the medieval name of Rugia and the tribal name of the Slavic R(uj)ani, though this theory is not generally accepted.
...not accepted by Poles of course.
The Hevelli:

Die Heveller waren eine slawische (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slawen) Völkerschaft an der mittleren Havel (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havel) und gehörten zu den Elb- (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbslawen) und Ostseeslawen. Die Eigenbezeichnung des Stammes war Stodorjane. Der neuhochdeutsche Name „Heveller“ geht auf eine altslawische Namensform zurück, die seit ca. 845 (Hehfeldi, Bayerischer Geograph (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayerischer_Geograph)) bis in das 12. Jahrhundert häufig in Varianten belegt ist. Der ursprüngliche Stammesname Habelli, abgeleitet vom germanischen Habula (Havel), wie auch dieser selbst blieben also nach der slawischen Einwanderung im 7./8. Jahrhundert dem westgermanischen Sprachgebiet bekannt, was bedeuten könnte, dass eine germanische Restbevölkerung am Entstehen des slawischen Stammes beteiligt war.
As for "Windisch" in Switzerland... its etymology is apparently Roman:

... Den Ortsnamen Vindonissa hatten die Römer unverändert von den Helvetiern übernommen, er bedeutet «Ort des Vindonius».Actually it is Celtic. Just like the Celtic predecessor of Vienna originally was named Vindobona. This already explains many place-names containing wend or wind in Southern Germany. Other examples of non-Slavic derivations have been provided some posts above.


One can play indefinitely. The -OWs are exlcusive to Germania Slavica. I already explained my theory of it being a Slavicised version of the German suffix -au in many cases. The term "Germania Slavica" btw is a post-WW2 invention of the allied re-education programm and first appeared in the 1970's.

[Jarl]

Of course, wenden is German for to turn, or turning. Poor megalomania to claim it as Slavic. Same goes for winden.
Huh?
Prefix wind:

Prefix wend:



You do not understand, do you? I said that TWO-PART place names, consisting of TWO SEPARATE WORDS, first of which is "Windisch" or "Wendisch" are Slavic villages. And the map clearly proves that:


"Wendisch XXX" Ortsnamen map:

http://i41.tinypic.com/34qn4tv.jpg


All names that begin with "Wendisch" or "Windisch"

http://i39.tinypic.com/2whnvpi.jpg

Single sites to the West are "noise".




All such place names are located clearly in Germania Slavica, East of Elbe. "Wind" and "Wend" are too general.


Since the reason for the Völkerwanderung was overpopulation and only the population overspill left these regions (as acknowledged by Paulus Diaconus f.e.), this is rather doubtful. Additionally, why would they have left these lands if they were such attractive settlement grounds?

I am only mentioning archeological facts: "The beginnings of Slavic settlement east of the river Elbe"

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3284/is_300_78/ai_n29103194/


There is no evidence for any mass co-existence of Germans and Slavs East of Elbe in the early Medieval Ages. In fact, Procopius clearly wrote, when he descirbed the return of Heruli from Pannonia to Danemark, that the land between the Sclaveni and some Germanic tribe of Varni in Thuringen, was a desolate barren land.



Just looking up the already mentioned example Rügen:

Rugians left Rugen long before the Slavs arrived. They were later mentioned along the Danube, and finally followed Goths and Vandals in their expansions into the Roman domains. I only point to the FACT there are NO attested Germanic settlements East of Elbe in the period between VII-VIII century, when these areas were colonised by Polabian Slavs. Archeology and history (Procopius) is clearly against this possibility. If there were Germanic settlements they must have been sparse, little, dispersed, or razed down - all of which makes them hard to detect by archeologists.

What is more! Most early medieval toponyms East of Elbe are Slavic, not Germanic. Only after Ostsiedlung, modern German "dorf" toponyms emerged.


I already explained my theory of it being a Slavicised version of the German suffix -au in many cases. The term "Germania Slavica" btw is a post-WW2 invention of the allied re-education programm and first appeared in the 1970's.

And I think most German linguists will clearly disagree, coz:


1. There is no sign of German culture surviving in the East Germany in Medieval Ages. All cultures like Prague, Sukow, Feldberg, Menkendorf, Vipperow etc. have a clear Slavic origin.

2. There are no historical accounts of Germanics living East of Elbe after Vth century.

3. Ending -OW is Slavic and there is no proof Slavs ever reversed Germanic -AU into -OW. The have totally different meanings. -AU is not an ending, but it can be a suffix or a free-standing name. It is a WHOLE ROOT itself and indicative of water, as I understand it.


And this is clearly supported by the fact that there are plenty of Germanic place names where AU is the whole toponym alone. If -AU was a common Germanic suffix, then such place names would be common. In fact they are not so common.

In contrast, Slavic ending -OW is a possessiv form, and has nothing to do with water. It has no meanins and does not consitutue a root or a word by itself. It is commonly ADDED to the root, and that is why it is so common.


There is a clear proof that Germans germanised Slavic -OWs into -AUs, but not the opposite.


Why???


Coz, no place name ending with an -OW has a Germanic root or ethymology. They all got a very basic and clear Slavic ethymology:

Zastrow - ostrów

Grabów - grab

Sukow - suka

Warnow - wrona


Most of them are repeated in exact or altered form in other Slavic territories - in Poland and Czech. While many German -AU place names, althoguh with an -AU suffix, still have a clear Slavic ethymology ->>> "Warshau", "Krakau", "Breslau" etc.

5. Place names ending with -OW are far more abundant than ending with -AU, and are restricted to Germania Slavica. There they are accompanied by a whole lot of other Slavic names - like those ending in -ITZ.

So the the disparity in numbers between East and West Germany on one hand, and correlation with other Slavic toponyms, is striking and undeniable.

[Jarl]

I showed you German maps and German websites that clearly state -OW is a Slavic suffix and villages of that sort were inhabited by Slavs.

You find me a SINGLE source, which states that East German Grabows, Rostocks, Rambows, Sukows, Zastorws and Tornows are mere slavicised Germanic toponyms dating back to ANCIENT times... It would be a genuine historical miracle. Several thousand ancient villages all huddled on 100 000 sq. km, and all surviving with their names unscratched, despite leaving no traces of Germanic settlement culture in both historical and archeoloical sources, through the whole period of V-XI century. More than 500 years.


And despite having a clear Slavic ethymology and root in vast majority (if not all cases).



Good luck! ;)




P.S.

It is interesting to note that -OWs predominate in Mecklenburg - on the territory of Obodrites (Obodrzce). In Vorpommern, where the Veleti lived, and especially in Rugen a different Slavic suffix starts to predominate, namely that of -ITZ, widespread in almost all Slavic countries.






P.P.S

There were SEVERAL waves of Slavic migrations into Germany:


1. late VI / early VII century - Obodrites bearing the Sukow culture between Elbe and Oder, North of Spree.

2. VII century - Prague and Danubian Slav cultures - the Sorbs and Czechs, South of Spree.

3. late VII / early VIII century - the Veleti, bearing the Feldberg culture and displacing Obodrites from what is now Vorpommern.


Veleti invasion was not peaceful. The Obodrites and Veleti would later remain enemies for centuries. Ranowie - who took the island of Rugen most likely came along in the last wave, with the Veleti. They shared a similar culture.


While it is hypothetically possible that the first Obodrites met and assimilated some Germanic stragglers, they must have been waaaaaaay to few since they had no effect on the culture and language of Polabian Slavs, and also on their architecture, village types, and, by extension, also toponyms.

What is more, the second wave of the Veleti, that took up territories Vorpommern and most of today's Brandenburg down till Spree, could have met only earlier Slavic settlers on their way. And indeed they displaced the Obodrites.



And a funny thing! How do you explain the 10-20% difference in R1a abundance between West and East Germany??? Funnily enough vast majority of Satem Balto-Slavo-Iranian R1a haplotypes are overrepresented in East Germany:

http://rokus01.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/siberian-ydna-matches.jpg

What say you Herr Zyklop? ;)


1. No historical/archeological signs of Germanics East of Elbe between V-XI century. Local culture, villages, architecture, ceramics, temples, religion - exclusicely Slavic.

2. Vast abundance of Slavic toponyms, with typical slavic roots, ethymologies and endings -OW, -ITZ, -IN.

3. Genetic markers clearly indicative of significant Slavic component in East Germany, particularly Vorpommern and Lusatia.









What follows from here is clear, both from history, onomastik, and DNA. East Germans have a distinct Wendish component in their ancestry, ranging from few percent in most urban areas to majority in parts of rural Wendland, Lusatia and Vorpommern - particularly the islands of Rugen and Usedom.

Now the funniest thing is what Coon wrote about the former Polabie:

Northeastern Germany, from Mecklenburg over to East Prussia, is a region of great blondism, in which northwestern German types, especially the Borreby, gradually merge into the racial forms found in Lithuania and White Russia. Von Hindenburg, an East Prussian par excellence, was an ideal example of a Borreby-East Baltic combination typical of his own class and country.


And this duality has always been simmering somewhere beneath the Pomeranian-Prussian identity:

Rudolf Virchow writing to his father that their "grandfathers - the Pomernians, came from the same Lechitic stock as Poles".

Zelewski changing his surname to von dem Bach.

Von Zitzewitzs "altering" their local, Slavic genealogy to claim a descent from Saxon nobles.

Adalbert von Winkler changing his name to Wojcieh Kętrzyński.

King Nicholas I of Montenegro who chose Duchess Jutta of Mecklenburg as the wife of his heir-apparent, Danilo, Crown Prince of Montenegro, stating the Slavic ethnicity of the Mecklenburg as sufficient.

Johann Heinrich Voss, regarding himself as an "Obodrite".

"Interessanterweise sollen bei einer Volkszählung zwischen den Weltkriegen noch etwa 500 Personen im Kreis Lüchow-Dannenberg auf die Frage nach Volkszugehörigkeit „wendisch" angegeben haben."

Laskaris Kananos; 1438/1439 r. who wrote that "next, there is a large country of Sclavonia, whose capital is Lubeka. From this country came Zygiotes, Slavs of the Greek Pelopones"

"The inhabitants of Jabelhaide are according to their language and customs still Sarmatians" - Nicolaus Marschalk Thurius; ok. 1521 r.


etc. etc.... and thousands, thousands of Wendish toponyms, all clustered predominantly in East Germany.




You cannot evade it. It is part of your heritage and history. Just like the German Ostsiedlung is part of ours...

And more. Because Germans were historically, for the most part, stronger, it was more often them assimilating the Slavs than the opposite. Counting the whole German nation in - it is a part of your blood.



You may claim it is different, following the example of Zelewski and von Zitzewitz. After all, we are all egoistis and materialists to an extent. Everybody wants to descend from "the better". From the nobility, gentry, from the Sarmatians, Germans, Aryans, Old Stocks, White colonists, the lost tribe of Israel, Atlantineans etc. There is always denial among those most vulnerable, yet this will not change the fact that some Germans have a very substantial Slavic ancestry. And yet, oddly enough, they the first to look down upon their own roots, just like a new-rich looks down and tries to forget about his true plebeian origins.

Same identity-crisis and conversion is a well-studied phenomenon. Same thing happend to polonised Lithuanian and Ruthenian nobility, to the Old Prussian elites (and many ordinary Old Prussians), to Pomeranians. And, more recently, to Silesians and Masuren...

The case of the Irish, Cornish and Welsh is slightly different. The difference lies perhaps in greater German tolerance in applying the term "German" to assimilated peoples. This is in part entailed by the specificty of different forms of feudalism in the Eastern domains, affected by Ostsiedlung and greater volume of Ostsiedlung itself, not just the good old benevolent German psyche. But most definitely, the Germans, or more precisely the Balto-Slavo-Germano mix of Pomerania, Silesia and Prussia, proved very efficient in assimilating neighbours, both by force peaceful means, and integrating them into their own society.




[QUOTE=Zyklop;195935]I already explained my theory of it being a Slavicised version of the German suffix -au in many cases. The term "Germania Slavica" btw is a post-WW2 invention of the allied re-education programm and first appeared in the 1970's.

;) At least you are honest enough to say it is your theory... Then I will be honest with you as well. Without going into disputes over the ratios, I say, it perfectly makes sense to my amateur's understanding of basic linguistics. However, it has a weak point - after having read the relevant websites and papers, nowhere did I find any hint of such thing. But try to find some source which would support it yourself. Perhaps your theory is indeed scientific.

[Osweo]

Jarl, you fuck up with your stupid insistence that there was no Germanic substrate to the Wendish Elbe-Oder lands. It just flies in the face of common sense - I don't even NEED 'evidence' for it.

I would like to see some etymologies of the more frequent name types, however; basic Russian only gets you SO far.

Germans; you willfully misunderstand a lot of what he says, you know. What fool would deny the massive concentrations of Slavonic toponymy east of the Elbe? -au can't possibly account for more than a mere fraction of these names in the east. And my Slavonic linguistic knowledge reveals some as blatantly Wendisch.

[Nodens]

Jarl, you fuck up with your stupid insistence that there was no Germanic substrate to the Wendish Elbe-Oder lands. It just flies in the face of common sense - I don't even NEED 'evidence' for it.

I would like to see some etymologies of the more frequent name types, however; basic Russian only gets you SO far.

Germans; you willfully misunderstand a lot of what he says, you know. What fool would deny the massive concentrations of Slavonic toponymy east of the Elbe? -au can't possibly account for more than a mere fraction of these names in the east. And my Slavonic linguistic knowledge reveals some as blatantly Wendisch.

Keep your facts out of their politics!

[Jarl]

Jarl, you fuck up with your stupid insistence that there was no Germanic substrate to the Wendish Elbe-Oder lands. It just flies in the face of common sense - I don't even NEED 'evidence' for it.

I agree that it makes sense that there was SOME Germanic substrate left. After all, it would have been some gross historical exception if literally EVERYONE left. The problem is - the scale of such hypothetical Germanic settlement must have been negligible by the end of antiquity since it left no clear traces - in material culture, in historical accounts, and in the culture of Polabian newcomers.

However, it is equally clear that for the period between V-VI century, we have relatively few, loose findings and sites from the whole territory between Elbe and Oder. And this is not my fantasy but a current state of affairs in archeology:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3284/is_300_78/ai_n29103194/

http://www.antiquity.ac.uk/Ant/078/0314/Ant0780314.pdf


We also have the account given by Procopius. Taken together, these facts favour a large exodus of Germanics living betwee Elbe and Oder.

There is simply NO DETECTABLE EVIDENCE for mixing of Slavs and Germanics in the early Medieval Ages, in the country between Oder and Elbe. Consequently, while such process is probable, on a very small scale, it will remain largely a speculation. Unless some new, concrete evidence comes to light (like discovery of Germanic settlements overlapping in time and space with Slavic newcomers).


I would like to see some etymologies of the more frequent name types, however; basic Russian only gets you SO far.

Look here:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polskie_odpowiedniki_niemieckich_nazw_geograficzny ch

There is a list of some Wendish toponyms from Germany in Austria. Most are given in italics and marked by reference [2], which is the same one as this:

http://halat.pl/atlas_slowianszczyzny_zach.jpg

An old publication on Polabian toponymy, by the Polish "Western Institute". It does not give you the etymology directly, but gives you the original Lechitic name, which you can easily google up.

Obviously, it is just a fraction of the whole toponymy and includes mostly major and oldest sites.


Vorpommern remained by and large indepnedent until XVII century:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Pommern_um_1150.PNG

Rugen became later part of Duchy of Pomerania:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/a/a8/F%C3%BCrstentumR%C3%BCgen.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Pomeraniae_Ducatus_Tabula.jpg

Parts of Pomerania, namely the Swedish Pomerania, were incorporated into German states only as late as 1814:

http://www.algonet.se/~hogman/symbol/k_pommern1.png

...becoming part of German state only in the very recent history.


Btw. Duchy of Pomerania has never been completely germanised. Small pockets of Polish/Pomeranian-speaking people held on until WW II, in the East, particularly along the border with Pomerellia. Those living to the East of Oder were later displaced and expelled leaving for South America and West Germany. Nonetheless, the Pomeranian population of German Vorpommern descends largely from the indigenous Saxon settlers and Polabians.

[Zyklop]

You do not understand, do you? I said that TWO-PART place names, consisting of TWO SEPARATE WORDS, first of which is "Windisch" or "Wendisch" are Slavic villages. No, you claimed:

Place names with "wind" or "wend" do not necessarily have to be connected to Wends. Looking at the maps above however, it seems clear that they are. Apart from few places in the West, they are restricted to Eastern parts of Germany + Wendland, West of Elbe....which I pointed out as not true.

There is no evidence for any mass co-existence of Germans and Slavs East of Elbe in the early Medieval Ages.
I already cited that Archaeology confirms a continuity in the settlement of Rügen from pre-Slavic times.


In fact, Procopius clearly wrote, when he descirbed the return of Heruli from Pannonia to Danemark, that the land between the Sclaveni and some Germanic tribe of Varni in Thuringen, was a desolate barren land.Germania always has been described as a barren land, so what Procopius writes is no more significant than what Tacitus wrote centuries before the migration period.


Rugians left Rugen long before the Slavs arrived. They were later mentioned along the Danube, and finally followed Goths and Vandals in their expansions into the Roman domains. I only point to the FACT there are NO attested Germanic settlements East of Elbe in the period between VII-VIII century, when these areas were colonised by Polabian Slavs. Archeology and history (Procopius) is clearly against this possibility. If there were Germanic settlements they must have been sparse, little, dispersed, or razed down - all of which makes them hard to detect by archeologists.Strangely enough in these deserted lands Germanic hydronyms survived Slavic settlement, for example Elbe, Wipper, Havel, Elster, Spree...
The situation in Germany east of the Elbe was one of Slavicised Germans who became Germanised again during Ostsiedlung.


And this is clearly supported by the fact that there are plenty of Germanic place names where AU is the whole toponym alone. If -AU was a common Germanic suffix, then such place names would be common. In fact they are not so common. Always funny being lectured by foreigner about placenames in Germany. -au is a very common ending for German towns. Langenau, Lindau, Künzelsau, Passau, Hallertau...


In contrast, Slavic ending -OW is a possessiv form, and has nothing to do with water. It has no meanins and does not consitutue a root or a word by itself. It is commonly ADDED to the root, and that is why it is so common.
Its commonness makes it only more likely to be used for Slavicising German toponyms. As an example Germans changed Krakov to Krakau for reasons of familiarity without minding the meaning either.


You may claim it is different, following the example of Zelewski and von Zitzewitz. After all, we are all egoistis and materialists to an extent. Everybody wants to descend from "the better". From the nobility, gentry, from the Sarmatians, Germans, Aryans, Old Stocks, White colonists, the lost tribe of Israel, Atlantineans etc. There is always denial among those most vulnerable, yet this will not change the fact that some Germans have a very substantial Slavic ancestry. And yet, oddly enough, they the first to look down upon their own roots, just like a new-rich looks down and tries to forget about his true plebeian origins.You won't believe it but I have acknowledged my Slavic ancestry (which I possibly have being 1/4 Russia-German), since the first days I posted on international boards. This however never prevented me from disliking you Polacks and your propaganda. One could indeed consider these discussions about ancient tribal groups that once were assimilated and Germanised as unsignificant. After all, the distinctive Polish folk character that is so obnoxious to Germans formed during their quarrels with the German settlers and the Teutonic Order, and didn't apply to Wends and Sorbs of early medieval times. It is however the same propaganda that was used since the 19th century for Polish sabre rattling against Germany, the same propaganda that was taught to students in the GDR to accustom them with Soviet occupation and the same propaganda that nowadays is used to undermine the healthy xenophobia in East Germany. In reality, Slavic heritage in East Germany is very well preserved. The Sorbs are under minority protection, each local archaeological museum displays Slavic findings, there are reconstructions of Slavic hill-forts and homesteads, what more do you want?


Same identity-crisis and conversion is a well-studied phenomenon. Same thing happend to polonised Lithuanian and Ruthenian nobility, to the Old Prussian elites (and many ordinary Old Prussians), to Pomeranians. And, more recently, to Silesians and Masuren...What about Polish teenagers living in England and dreaming of Germania Slavica?


;) At least you are honest enough to say it is your theory... Then I will be honest with you as well. Without going into disputes over the ratios, I say, it perfectly makes sense to my amateur's understanding of basic linguistics. However, it has a weak point - after having read the relevant websites and papers, nowhere did I find any hint of such thing.Since you read so many relevant websites you surely are aware that the term "Wend" is the Germanic label for Slavs, just like "Welsch" was used for Celts. Slavs never called themselves Wends. All the place-names that are derived from Wendisch, Windisch, etc were named so by Germans and as such bear witness to the Germanisation of these towns and the end of their Slavic character.

[Jarl]

No Zyklop. Actually it was YOU who first mentioned the whole "wind-wend" thing. Read the thread carefully again, starting from page 15 - when I joined in. This is you post:


These regions were sparsely populated in the early medieval period, calling them Slavic "strongholds" is a bit far fetched. So is claiming every toponym with the elements wend and wind or the suffix -ow as Slavic. The first are common German words and are found in place-names all across Germany:


Before that, I said nothing of "wind" or "wend". I only posted maps. And it was also YOU who first brought up the subject of the Slavic suffixes:


or the suffix -ow as Slavic. The first are common German words and are found in place-names all across Germany:

Additionally there are also places in West Germany going by the ending -ow without having indication of Slavic settlement, like the district Spradow in North Rhine Westphalia, which indicates that -ow often is just a different form of German -au (Germanic ahwo/ouwe) describing a watery region.

Spradow is the single exception, listed in wikipedia precisely for its unusual, un-Germanic character whose originas are "unclear", as the article states itself. As for Slavic -OW and Germanic -AU these are two different things, and vast majority if not all Ortsnamen ending with -OW have Slavic core/root. There is little space for denying the extensive character Slavic settlement East of Elbe. It is proven by history, archeology and toponymy. Gladly the Medieval Germans were not Nazis and did not insist on replacing Slavic roots and names with totally new, Germanic ones.


No, you claimed:...which I pointed out as not true.

1. I already cited that Archaeology confirms a continuity in the settlement of Rügen from pre-Slavic times.

2. Germania always has been described as a barren land, so what Procopius writes is no more significant than what Tacitus wrote centuries before the migration period.

3. Strangely enough in these deserted lands Germanic hydronyms survived Slavic settlement, for example Elbe, Wipper, Havel, Elster, Spree...

4. The situation in Germany east of the Elbe was one of Slavicised Germans who became Germanised again during Ostsiedlung.


1. Then please go on, give me a SINGLE source which states there was a continuity in archeological cultures at ANY place East of Elbe, at the Antiquite-Medieval Ages interface. Particularly in Rugen, which is absolutely devoid of any Germanic toponyms prior to Ostsiedlung.

2. Nonsense. Both Tacitus and Ptolemy describe a whole string of Germanic peoples living along the Baltic, and on both banks of the Elbe. The Suebi Semnones, the Silingae, Calucones, Banochaemae, the Burguntes, Lygians, the Rugii, the Lemovii, Nuitones, Suarines, Farodini, Sidini, Teutones, Teutonovari - these are all the tribes described by Tacitus and Ptolemy as living East of Elbe, and more less West of Oder. About 14 of them.

3. First of all, only Elbe is a name that dates back from antiquity. The rest is much later and comes from Medieval Ages and Ostsiedlung times, so we can omit them totally.

But Spree and Elbe was a border rivers with Germanics who were living on the other side (apart from Wendland). Wipper and Elster are all tributaries of the Saale and are all located West from Spree and West from Elbe. These are all Slavic-Germanic borderlands. So your examples prove nothing. The only valid one WOULD BE Havel... IF it was known in antiquite when these territories were inhabited by Germanics... But ITS NOT. It is a Medieval German name from the Ostsiedlung times, so the whole argument misses the point.

On the other hand all major and minor rivers of Pommern are Slavic - Piane (Piana), Warnow, Recknitz (there are 3 Reknice in Poland), Uecker (Wkra) - all with a clear Slavic ethymology...


4. Wishfull thinking... If there were any Germanics left, the numbers must have been negligible since:

A - they left NO archeological TRACES. There is a 100 year hiatus, East of Elbe, between the departure of Germanic culture beares, and the coming of Slavs.

B - they left no trace in Polabian Slavic village names, toponyms, hydronyms, religion nor material culture.



So obviously, we can assume there were say some scattered Germanic settlements. Some stragglers who did not leave for the Empire. However they must have been a tiny minority since they posed no great threat nor obstacle to the advancing Slavs, which took up all the lands to the Elbe without any great effort within less than 200 years... and noone ever heard of any Germanic enclaves in there.

The question what happened to the stragglers is a different kettle of fish. They could have been assimilated, or they could have been expelled, enslaved or killed off. Probably a combination of all these variants.


Anyway, there is absolutely no evidence that Polabians absorbed some Germanic culture. Not to say Germanic blood. In fact, there is no evidence they ever came into any extensive direct contact with them between the Elbe and Oder.



Always funny being lectured by foreigner about placenames in Germany. -au is a very common ending for German towns. Langenau, Lindau, Künzelsau, Passau, Hallertau...

Its commonness makes it only more likely to be used for Slavicising German toponyms. As an example Germans changed Krakov to Krakau for reasons of familiarity without minding the meaning either

And so? I am not asking you about Germanic names, but about clearly Slavic names like Grabow, Sukow, Zastrow, Tarnow etc. You claimed they are slavicised Germanic Lindaus Passaus and so... which is simply ridiculous since they all have a Slavic root. They are not slavicised "Lindows", "Passows", "Hallertows", but simple Slavic Grabows, Sukows, Rambows and Zastrows. A different kettle of fish.

[Osweo]

The problem is - the scale of such hypothetical Germanic settlement must have been negligible by the end of antiquity since it left no clear traces - in material culture, in historical accounts, and in the culture of Polabian newcomers.
Not too unlike the case of the Welsh in England. I suspect people haven't looked properly, or that the evidence is too obscure.

And what do we REALLY know of the culture of the Polabs? There could have been loads of things that demonstrated more continuity, now lost to oblivion. We're dealing with layer upon layer of cultural accretions here; unsurprising that older layers should be so obcured.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3284/is_300_78/ai_n29103194/
A tiresome read of the modern revisionist school... But with some salient points that confirm my suspicion! Ahem:

The end of "Germanic" settlements, dated into the migration period, was seen as an important terminus post quem. Despite this fact typological and technological characteristics have been observed, that shared late antique and early medieval ceramics; eventually one could describe these parallels as a proof of contact or communication (Petersen 1939; Herrmann 1968).
Then he goes into all the modern rubbish that tries to deconstruct all traditional common-sense scholarship of the past... :D


Look here:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polskie_odpowiedniki_niemieckich_nazw_geograficzny ch
:thumb001:


Vorpommern remained by and large indepnedent until XVII century:
Germanisation didn't require outright conquest though. As I hear, the native Dukes were eager to germanise themselves and invite useful German taxpayers and specialists and the like, no?


Parts of Pomerania, namely the Swedish Pomerania, were incorporated into German states only as late as 1814:

...becoming part of German state only in the very recent history.
Now come on! You're doing it again! Swedish Germany was still in the Holy Roman Empire! Stop exaggeerating! Was the higher culture there more or less German from the middle ages?

[Electronic God-Man]

I find this interesting.

*subscribes*

[Jarl]

You won't believe it but I have acknowledged my Slavic ancestry (which I possibly have being 1/4 Russia-German), since the first days I posted on international boards. This however never prevented me from disliking you Polacks and your propaganda. One could indeed consider these discussions about ancient tribal groups that once were assimilated and Germanised as unsignificant.

You do not even have to admit it. It is easy to tell from the way you behave and hate Slavs. It is a paradox that the Slavic and Baltic Wasserdeutsch convertites are the most vile Slav-haters. Real Germans do not bother as they do not have to. They are not ashamed of their origins and feel no need to soap their roots clean.

The Greatest, Inese, Zyklop... I have seen such half-German cases here many a time.


After all, the distinctive Polish folk character that is so obnoxious to Germans formed during their quarrels with the German settlers and the Teutonic Order, and didn't apply to Wends and Sorbs of early medieval times. It is however the same propaganda that was used since the 19th century for Polish sabre rattling against Germany, the same propaganda that was taught to students in the GDR to accustom them with Soviet occupation and the same propaganda that nowadays is used to undermine the healthy xenophobia in East Germany.

Yes.

The "distinctive Polish folk character" was forged because of continuous pressures of Germanic Ostsiedlung.

And it started long before Konrad of Masovia invited the Teutonic Knights, but when the Ostmark margraves, having crushed the Polabians, tried to cow into suppression tribes of Poland. Fortunately they united under a local Piast dynasty and managed to resist the feudal German imperialism.


There was no other alternative. This "Polish obnoxious character" had to emerge because of feudal and absolutist oppression that enforced German religion, German laws and German language on free people on their very own soil, degrading them to second-class citizens.

Because of the Hohenzollern regime that expropriated free citizend and forced mass-colonisation, land-grabbing and forced germanisation. Oppression that wiped out the Polabians, wiped out the Pomeranians, wiped out the Lower Silesians, wiped out the Old Prussians, and was half-way through to wipe out the Sorbs, the Poles and Czechs.

The Poles had no choice. Either they would resist or they share the fate of so many other germanised ethnicities...


And indeed Poland was a rock which the German Osiedlung could not evade. Sneaking all aroung it for centuries - through Silesia, Pommern, Sudetenland and Prussia - it could never tackle this single "obnoxious" nation. Poor and stubbornly clinging to its soil and to its heritage.

And no means, no oppression, no colnisation and germanisation was able to crush that rock. Not even its westernmost province - Greater Poland, the old home of the Piast dynasty. Cradle of the Polish state.

And perhaps this is why you hate "Polacks" so much? Coz they did not convert. They did not choose the German culture. They preferred to stick to their own, rustic one.


What about Polish teenagers living in England and dreaming of Germania Slavica?

Wish I was a teenager ;)


Since you read so many relevant websites you surely are aware that the term "Wend" is the Germanic label for Slavs, just like "Welsch" was used for Celts. Slavs never called themselves Wends. All the place-names that are derived from Wendisch, Windisch, etc were named so by Germans and as such bear witness to the Germanisation of these towns and the end of their Slavic character.

Yes. That is a mark of assimilation. And not really an entirely peaceful one. But these were Medieval Ages. Tribal Polabians were not even given the chance to form a modern feudal state, not to mention a solid nation.

Polabians had to be sacrificed, so that Poles could have the time to organise. And indeed a close shave it was. If not for the firm policy of the first Piasts, Poland could share the fate of Polabie and Pommern.


In reality, Slavic heritage in East Germany is very well preserved. The Sorbs are under minority protection, each local archaeological museum displays Slavic findings, there are reconstructions of Slavic hill-forts and homesteads, what more do you want?

I do not want anything really. Indeed, I am thankful to the real Germans. Since they know how to look after themselves, without having to resort to violence and oppression. Much unlike the Germano-Balto-Slavic Prussian Wasserdeutsch convertite-mix, or the Nazi gangsters who managed to absolutely wreck whole centuries of German culture and tradition in the East, within a single decade... wiping out whole lands with their distinct communities - the effort of whole generations.

[Jarl]

A tiresome read of the modern revisionist school... But with some salient points that confirm my suspicion! Ahem:

Then he goes into all the modern rubbish that tries to deconstruct all traditional common-sense scholarship of the past... :D

Haha! It annoys me too but there is a hidden trade off there you know... the more he puts the emphasis on continuity, the more probable it becomes that Slavs might have actually lived more to the West and have been close neighbours with Germanics for centuries... and this is unthinkable to those favouring the classical German "Slavic Huns" theory :D



:thumb001:

Germanisation didn't require outright conquest though. As I hear, the native Dukes were eager to germanise themselves and invite useful German taxpayers and specialists and the like, no?

Indeed. The dukes were cunning and they were for long trying to survive and remain independent by oscillating between Germany, Danemark and Poland. They married either German, Polish (later Jagiellonian) or Scandinavian princesses. I am not exactly certain when they became linguistically germanised and if they were eager. I think the political and economic pressures were main factors.

They often changed alliances. Particularly in XIV and XV century Duchy of Pomerania had close relations with Poland as a counter-balance of Brandenburg and Neumark expantionism. The dukes of Pommern-Stolp became vassals of the Polish Crown.

Its kinda funny, coz Bogusław X, the duke of Pommern and vassal of Poland had a German wife who cheated on him with her doctor, conducting abortions on their offspring. He finally locked her in a castle (where she died a year later) and re-married a daughter of king Kazimierz Jagiellonczyk.

She gave him 4 sons, prolonging the Griffin dynasty by almost 120 years.


Bogusław X:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Bogus%C5%82aw_X.jpg

Kazimierz Jagiellończyk (the victor at the treaty of Thorn 1466, incorporating Ermland and Royal Prussia into Crown of Poland):

http://www.zsplast.gdynia.pl/historia_sztuki/kanon/kanon_dziel_obrazy/gotyk/stwosz_nagrobek_jagiellonczyka.jpg


Boguslaw X sons: Barnim IX and Jan were close friends of Polish Jagiellonians. Jan married sister of king Zygmunt August. Later on, there were serious plans to marry Anna Jagiellonka (the last remaining Jagiellonian) off to Barnim X.

All Pomeranian dukes would be Polish vassals from Bytow and Lebork. These two border lands were incorporated into Poland after the end of Griffin dynasty and division of Pomerania.




THe Wizlawiden - princes of Rugen had loose connections to Poland. They were vassals of Wrymouth, but for a short time. At least one of them married a Polish Piast princess in XIII century. Some married other Pomeranian or Danish princesses.

The house of Pomerania, the Griffins, on the other hand, have maintained close relation with the Polish royalty for most of their time. Both houses were enemies of Brandenburgians. The very last Girffins married German princesess. Boguslaw XIV - the last Griffin duke, passed down the rights to Pomerania onto the Swedes, who were an uncontested hegemon round the Balticum at that time, specifically exluding Brandenburg.

However, Brandenburg invaded Pomerania and annexed roughly a third of it, the least populated part.


Now come on! You're doing it again! Swedish Germany was still in the Holy Roman Empire! Stop exaggeerating! Was the higher culture there more or less German from the middle ages?

;) But it wasn't ruled by any of the states that lated formed Germany. I think it depends where. Definitely higher and urban culture was German from XIII-XIV century.

[Comte Arnau]

Catalonia, also called New Aragon:

http://i42.tinypic.com/a0v4hl.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Zz52rCfOliY/SHiXyA_cGvI/AAAAAAAAANQ/PQ8sb39TZyA/s320/Escut%2Bde%2BCatalunya.jpg

[Zyklop]

You do not even have to admit it. It is easy to tell from the way you behave and hate Slavs. It is a paradox that the Slavic and Baltic Wasserdeutsch convertites are the most vile Slav-haters. Real Germans do not bother as they do not have to. They are not ashamed of their origins and feel no need to soap their roots clean.Victimisation and crying for Pan-Slavic help is the most notable mark of the Polish folk character. As if any other Slavic nation would give a fuck about you and your sensibilities. Germany had better relations with some Slavic nations than these nations ever had with Poland, even during the Third Reich. Nobody back then saw the Poland campaign as an anti-Slavic conflict, on the contrary.
http://i41.tinypic.com/245ef.jpg

The Russians dislike you, so do the Ukrainians. Even Poles don't want to live among Poles, as is acknowledged by all the internet nationalists living in England, Australia or the US and boasting about the very same Polish soil they abandoned long ago for a filled purse.
And where do your pro-Polish "real Germans" exist? Even for non-political people the general view on Poland is that of a nation of car thieves and prostitutes. The Czechs and Slovaks are no less Slavic but nobody has a real problem with them. It's always only the Poles who spit across the border and then cry about the echo.


And indeed Poland was a rock which the German Osiedlung could not evade. Sneaking all aroung it for centuries - through Silesia, Pommern, Sudetenland and Prussia - it could never tackle this single "obnoxious" nation. Poor and stubbornly clinging to its soil and to its heritage.

And no means, no oppression, no colnisation and germanisation was able to crush that rock. Not even its westernmost province - Greater Poland, the old home of the Piast dynasty. Cradle of the Polish state.Are you bragging about the "Polish rock" that was torn apart by its neighbours and remained a vassal state for more than hundred years until Imperial Germany allowed its independence in 1916?

[Jarl]

Victimisation and crying for Pan-Slavic help is the most notable mark of the Polish folk character. As if any other Slavic nation would give a fuck about you and your sensibilities. Germany had better relations with some Slavic nations than these nations ever had with Poland, even during the Third Reich. Nobody back then saw the Poland campaign as an anti-Slavic conflict, on the contrary.
http://i41.tinypic.com/245ef.jpg

I would expect that coming from a part-Russian, part-Volga German, part-GodKnowsWhatElse. ZSSR and Soviets is not exactly the same as Russia and Russians.

One day they did not give a fuck about Poland, the other they did not give a fuck about Germany:

http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/v/ve/vertreibungsgebiet.jpg


http://www.ww2.pl/ww2/zdjecia/35.jpg

http://www.ww2.pl/ww2/zdjecia/36.jpg

http://www.antraspasaulinis.net/uploader3/failai/Na_Berlin.jpg


Only thanks to genial German politics.


The Russians dislike you, so do the Ukrainians. Even Poles don't want to live among Poles, as is acknowledged by all the internet nationalists living in England, Australia or the US and boasting about the very same Polish soil they abandoned long ago for a filled purse.

I can assure you many more Russians and Ukrainians feel closer to Poles than to the Germans. Thanks to the Germans again. WW II, German occupation and communism all contributed to the fact that we, Eastern people, have astonishingly much in common.

This West-East mentality border can be already seen in Germany itself. It runs through the old West Germany and DDR. It runs between the East Germans, and the West Germans.

I bet that being a Russian German living in Bavaria you surely understand the nature of the divide.


And where do your pro-Polish "real Germans" exist? Even for non-political people the general view on Poland is that of a nation of car thieves and prostitutes. The Czechs and Slovaks are no less Slavic but nobody has a real problem with them. It's always only the Poles who spit across the border and then cry about the echo.

"General view" of a Russian-German living in Bavaria and slackening off and pouring out his hatred on a internet forum??? LOL! ;)

So how does it feel being beaten by thieves and prostitues yet again? Using your logic I should call the Germans a nation of murderers. But I will not let a poor Russian Wasserdeutsch provoke me. Hussar was right after all...


Are you bragging about the "Polish rock" that was torn apart by its neighbours and remained a vassal state for more than hundred years until Imperial Germany allowed its independence in 1916?

And yet it still managed to resist germanisation and russification, and ended much better off than Germany... oddly enough. At least we have our own country for ourselves. As for Imperial Germany... it sucked in 1916, in 1917 and in 1918 and finally lost. The whole WW I was one greate disaster that Prussian junkry brought upon Germany. And Polish indepenence was a cheap move to win the sympathies of the Poles, 100s of 1000s of whom were conscripted into Prussian army and fighiting for the Germans. But at long last fate turned in Poland's favour, after a century of Prussian-German occupation. And the indepenece was won by the Entente, and the Polish Legions formed in France, Russia, Germany and Austria in 1918. And by the Polish Army in 1920, during the Polish-Soviet war. Polish independence owes absolutely nothing to Imperial Germany or Prussia. Apart from the fact that after a long period of good fortune, it finally sucked and lost.

[Svanhild]

Jarl, you really need to shut the fu** up. I'm fully German and your stupid, arrogant and entirely subjective talk darkens my image of Poland day by day. A lot of things happened in the past, some to your country, some to my country, hence it's useless to list them up against each other. Slavic influence in Eastern Germany? To some extend. What's about German influence in Poland? What's about our occupied German territory after WW2? Millions of killed or expelled Germans? Pardon my french, but you're acting like a narcissistic, undiscerning and relentless child, always pointing a shacking finger at the bad bad Germans. And no, your country isn't superior. It was easily smashed by various other countries in its long past. Your Polish rock is a castle in the sand. Only by help from others you were able to survive as a nation. Do I hold that facts out to you every day? No, because I don't care a lot although parts of my family were expelled from Danzig. But you're the one who continues to throw dirt at Germany and badmouths us almost weekly. You have to stop living in the past. And you ruin the image of your people in my country: Does any German on this board like you? I'm afraid that you annoy every confident German with your infinite loop of crying and stamping.

I've expressed my condolences after the crash of the Polish plane near Katyn and I've never laughed about any Polish victims. Don't make me regret my good manners.



And no means, no oppression, no colnisation and germanisation was able to crush that rock. Not even its westernmost province - Greater Poland, the old home of the Piast dynasty. Cradle of the Polish state.

And perhaps this is why you hate "Polacks" so much? Coz they did not convert. They did not choose the German culture. They preferred to stick to their own, rustic one.
Alright, you're the sons of god and entirely invincible. And now take a nap.

[Jarl]

Jarl, you really need to shut the fu** up. I'm fully German and your stupid, arrogant

LoL! Of course! And a thief, and a prostitute. Perfect argument... anything else Mademoiselle? :D


and entirely subjective talk darkens my image of Poland day by day. A lot of things happened in the past, some to your country, some to my country, hence it's useless to list them up against each other. Slavic influence in Eastern Germany? To some extend. What's about German influence in Poland? What's about our occupied German territory after WW2? Millions of killed or expelled Germans? Pardon my french, but you're acting like a narcissistic, undiscerning and relentless child, always pointing a shacking finger at the bad bad Germans.

But Svanhild... I only posted a few maps of Slavic Polabie... and you and Zyklop reacted like a machine gun, histerically denying everything, telling me not to annoy other posters (wtf?) and hurling abuses at Poles. I find it amusing :)

But if the cap fits, wear it!


And no, your country isn't superior. It was easily smashed by various other countries in its long past. Your Polish rock is a castle in the sand. Only by help from others you were able to survive as a nation. Do I hold that facts out to you every day? No, because I don't care a lot although parts of my family were expelled from Danzig. But you're the one who continues to throw dirt at Germany and badmouths us almost weekly.

Blah, blah, blah... Life is a castle on sand. Get a life! I only posted few stupid maps and you boil up like a craysifh in a pot. Relax and for heavens sake start being objective. The discussion was cultural... until the moment that Russian fellow convertite put his old "Polacks" "thieves" and "prostitutes" tape on.


You have to stop living in the past. And you ruin the image of your people in my country: Does any German on this board like you? I'm afraid that you annoy every confident German with your infinite loop of crying and stamping.

What German? Zyklop??? As a matter of a sad fact, there is only a handful of real Germans on this board. And anyway, what interest should I have in a fellow like Zyklop "liking me"? It is totally abstract.

I "annoy" with my "crying"! Good! :P

[Jarl]

I've expressed my condolences after the crash of the Polish plane near Katyn and I've never laughed about any Polish victims. Don't make me regret my good manners.

Oh gosh... here come the victims yet again??? And who said something about "proper German answer coming in 1939"? Your care for victims and suffreing seems to be very selective, Svanhild...



Alright, you're the sons of god and entirely invincible.

Yes! Sons of ze stolze Mazuren!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Achille_Dev%C3%A9ria_erotism.jpg

...whose natural growth always tripled that of the Germans, so that whole East Prussia would not all evaporate in the Ostflucht.

http://hotimg6.fotki.com/a/99_234/51_136/suchodolski-ulan-dziewczyna.jpg


And now take a nap.


Will you join me? :P

[Osweo]

God... It could have been a good thread... And then it got all personal. :(

Jarl did just post a few maps at first, then he was given a warship, which was still in good fun (ish...). The Zyklop started criticising the maps, which is good and helpful, but to my mind, he did it in a manner a little too shrill. Svanhild then came in to really get it going, bringing no nice maps to look at, just moaning. All Jarl was doing at first was what our Belorussian comrade had asked for; it's not as if he started plastering these maps all over the German section, in a thread on something else. And I found much of interest in the maps. But then of course you got him going, and he does the irritating Slavonic thing of posting huge long bodies of text, in which inaccuracy and exaggeration is too mixed in with fact to make it worthwhile really tackling from a dispassionate historical point of view...

:(

Damn Polaks and Germans... The Continent should have been split between the English, Spanish and Russians, and the pair of yous sent to colonise Patagonia. :tsk:

Let's shut up now, eh? Or bring maps!

[Jarl]

got him going, and he does the irritating Slavonic thing of posting huge long bodies of text, in which inaccuracy and exaggeration is too mixed in with fact to make it worthwhile really tackling from a dispassionate historical point of view...



Es ist called "ze masurischer" passion! ;)



Let's shut up now, eh? Or bring maps!


Right...

http://www.koledzyzwojska.pl/userfiles/image/70%20tydzien/Polska-2050.jpg

:P :P :P





I need to live up to the expectations (stupid, arrogant etc.), ok?


And now some German astronomy:

http://www.wurstakademie.com/wp-content/uploads/07_wurstallerlei/dies-und-das/sternbild-gr-kl-wurst/b_sternbild-grosse-kleine-wurst-grosser-kleiner-wagen-baer-polarstern.jpg

...probably by that famous arch-German, Copernicus! ;)

[The Ripper]

MAP!

http://www.hear.fi/wiki/images/e/e4/Suomenkartta_pieni.jpg

This is basically what the Finnish leadership thought reasonable in 1941, and what the Germans generously agreed to. Although the Question of the Kola peninsula, with its abundant natural resources, was never finally settled, if I understand it correctly.

I'm trying to find a good of the actual extent of the Finnish advance, for reference, but so far the best I've found is this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Suurin_Suomi.PNG

EDIT: Here we have the position of the front(s) at the beginning of the summer offensive of 1944. The front had remained virtually stationary since the end of the Finnish offensive in 1941.

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/sotaromppu/sotaromppu-03.jpg

[Osweo]

MAP!
http://www.hear.fi/wiki/images/e/e4/Suomenkartta_pieni.jpg

:thumb001:
Is Solovki included?

If so, and added to Vyborg/Viipuri, I can say that I've been to Finland TWICE, instead of never! :D

What do you call Leningrad? Pietari? I could say four times then. :tongue

[Aramis]

Greater Croatia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Greater_Croatia_01.png/663px-Greater_Croatia_01.png

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/4644/ndh19431945wa5.png

[Nglund]

http://www.tlfq.ulaval.ca/axl/monde/images/england-france-map.gif

http://moinansari.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/3rd-reich-map-of-germanic-people-denk-highlighted.jpg
:D

[The Ripper]

:thumb001:
Is Solovki included?

I cannot be 100% sure, but I would expect it to be included.


If so, and added to Vyborg/Viipuri, I can say that I've been to Finland TWICE, instead of never! :D

What do you call Leningrad? Pietari? I could say four times then. :tongue

Yes, it is called Pietari in Finnish. I'm sure it would have been renamed into something more majestic, had it been made a "Finnish city" instead of "Russian city built on Finnish marshes". ;) Like Nevanlinna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyen). ;)

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://www.hear.fi/wiki/images/e/e4/Suomenkartta_pieni.jpg

A Greater Finland of any sorts is not going to ever happen if Finland today continue to be an underpopulated country. Finland is essentially three times the size of Bulgaria yet it has a population of 5 million compared to Bulgaria's 7 million. ;)

[Aramis]

Sorry guys, but nothing beats...

http://www.nicholasandalexandra.com/virtual1999/images/russmap.gif

And never will :D

[Jarl]

A Greater Finland of any sorts is not going to ever happen if Finland today continue to be an underpopulated country. Finland is essentially three times the size of Bulgaria yet it has a population of 5 million compared to Bulgaria's 7 million. ;)

Finland is doing good. Finland's growth rate is positive and one of the highest in developed Europe (0.3-0.1).

[poiuytrewq0987]

Finland is doing good. Finland's growth rate is positive and one of the highest in developed Europe (0.3-0.1).

That is still an incredibly low growth rate, and who knows some of it may be driven by Somali immigrants who have moved to Helsinki. Unless the Finns increase their numbers by 10 to 30 million, it can't realistically hope to retake the Karelia or even annex Kola peninsula.

[The Ripper]

A Greater Finland of any sorts is not going to ever happen if Finland today continue to be an underpopulated country. Finland is essentially three times the size of Bulgaria yet it has a population of 5 million compared to Bulgaria's 7 million. ;)

A Greater Finland is not going to happen because the Karelians, the Veps and the other small Finnich nations in East Karelia no longer exist. I think it would be the epitome of idiocy to advocate some kind of greater Finland today, we have more pressing issues, that are pan-European.

[Osweo]

I shouldn't have to do this, it's incredibly tiresome, but this is nonsense, and I have to say, in case the uninformed are reading:
the Karelians, the Veps and the other small Finnich nations in East Karelia no longer exist.
I worked with some Karelians from Petrozavodsk once. They do 'exist' I can assure you. And while chatting, they didn't seem to have any great desire to bemoan their fate in Russia. Sure, it's not all roses for them, but for Christ's sake... :rolleyes:

The other sentiments about priorities and realism are quite right, though.

[The Ripper]

I shouldn't have to do this, it's incredibly tiresome, but this is nonsense, and I have to say, in case the uninformed are reading:
I worked with some Karelians from Petrozavodsk once. They do 'exist' I can assure you. And while chatting, they didn't seem to have any great desire to bemoan their fate in Russia. Sure, it's not all roses for them, but for Christ's sake... :rolleyes:

The other sentiments about priorities and realism are quite right, though.

They make up about 10% - in their own republic. Before the second world war, they were still a majority. Before the revolution, they were a clear and uncontested majority. So with around 10% today, politically, they do not exist. This is a direct and intentional consequence of Soviet policy of deporting locals because Stalin saw them as unreliable. This coupled with the introduction of large numbers of Ukrainians, Belarusians, Russians, Latvians, etc to the region secured their demise as a native majority. I don't see why you would want to contest such blatant facts. I'm not being russophobic here, I'm stating facts.

Besides, with some exceptions, the East Karelians never developed a strongly Finnish/Finnic political identity, despite our best efforts. ;)

[poiuytrewq0987]

They make up about 10% - in their own republic. Before the second world war, they were still a majority. Before the revolution, they were a clear and uncontested majority. So with around 10% today, politically, they do not exist. This is a direct and intentional consequence of Soviet policy of deporting locals because Stalin saw them as unreliable. This coupled with the introduction of large numbers of Ukrainians, Belarusians, Russians, Latvians, etc to the region secured their demise as a native majority. I don't see why you would want to contest such blatant facts. I'm not being russophobic here, I'm stating facts.

Besides, with some exceptions, the East Karelians never developed a strongly Finnish/Finnic political identity, despite our best efforts. ;)

Well, don't the Karelians speak a Finnish language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelian_language)?

[Zyklop]

I can assure you many more Russians and Ukrainians feel closer to Poles than to the Germans. Thanks to the Germans again. WW II, German occupation and communism all contributed to the fact that we, Eastern people, have astonishingly much in common.Most notably that you don't want to live among Easterners.

This West-East mentality border can be already seen in Germany itself. It runs through the old West Germany and DDR. It runs between the East Germans, and the West Germans.

I bet that being a Russian German living in Bavaria you surely understand the nature of the divide.Being 1/4 Russia-German and genealogically 1/8 Slavic at the most the nature of the divide being related to ethnicity and not to post-WW2 politics escapes me at the moment, but after a bottle of Vodka I surely will understand... Reminds me of some Polish guy at Skadi who once in all seriousness claimed the high unemployment in East Germany would be a result of their Slavic laziness.

Jarl did just post a few maps at first,
Being addressed with such drama....

Now, Ladies and Gentlemen!


Especially...



...for the famed pinnacle of German magnanimosity...



...Herr Zyklopp!




Introducing (yes, oh yes!)....


Bavaria Slavica!
...in a thread I didn't even participate in actually shows a very worrisome obsession. Such craving for my attention surely has psychological reasons and can't be cured without professional help. Maybe the Kaczynski crash has triggered some Polish reflexes that make them compulsively dish out in place of their anti-German president? Creepy...

[Jarl]

Most notably that you don't want to live among Easterners.

Your conclusions are too far-fetched, I am afraid.


Being 1/4 Russia-German and genealogically 1/8 Slavic at the most the nature of the divide being related to ethnicity and not to post-WW2 politics escapes me at the moment, but after a bottle of Vodka I surely will understand... Reminds me of some Polish guy at Skadi who once in all seriousness claimed the high unemployment in East Germany would be a result of their Slavic laziness.

Russia-German and 1/8 Russian at the most? Better check your Ostland ancestry more thoroughly. Since you look like a 100% East Baltid, Id assume it's more than 1/4 ;)

[The Ripper]

Well, don't the Karelians speak a Finnish language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelian_language)?

I don't understand the question? Or rather, what relevance it has?

[Äike]

Well, don't the Karelians speak a Finnish language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelian_language)?

Finns speak Finnish... Karelians speak Karelian, which is quite closely related to Finnish. Finnish and Karelian are both Baltic-Finnic languages.

[The Ripper]

Finns speak Finnish... Karelians speak Karelian, which is quite closely related to Finnish. Finnish and Karelian are both Baltic-Finnic languages.

Karelian is a dialect continuum, so the division into "Finnish" and "Karelian" is highly political in nature. I suppose that Veps and Olonets Karelian would qualify as their own languages, but for example White Sea Karelian is no different from what is spoken on our side of the border.

[Osweo]

So with around 10% today, politically, they do not exist.

Politically not existing is one thing. Not existing at all is another.

Are the recent immigrants trickling away from the region, I wonder?

My income map for Russia is not very up to date, but Karelia is not in the two higher bands (of five bands). Maybe the Karelian position is not quite so hopeless. And lots of people have 'Russky' written in their passport when they're half Karelian or whatever, perhaps even a few full Karelians for various reasons. Different circumstances might see these 'return to the fold'. I remember reading of such a phenomenon with the Manchus a few years ago, who are ceasing to call themselves 'Han' which was politically expedient a few few decades back.


EDIT: Our dear friend 'Moshe' just repped this post with the comment 'do you have issues with jews?'
:shrug:
:ohwell:
:rotfl:

[Svanhild]

But Svanhild... I only posted a few maps of Slavic Polabie... and you and Zyklop reacted like a machine gun
It's our nature. Ratatatatat. And the machine gun faces east, right into your face. :wink


Let's shut up now, eh? Or bring maps!
Fine then. The best map of Germany I could find in its rightful and historical adequate proportions.
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk103/Battlestar_Cydonia/bigger%20germany/8780e3d3.png?t=1217698534

[The Lawspeaker]

It's our nature. Ratatatatat. And the machine gun faces east, right into your face. :wink

Fine then. The best map of Germany I could find in its rightful and historical adequate proportions.
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk103/Battlestar_Cydonia/bigger%20germany/8780e3d3.png?t=1217698534
Apart from Sleswick which used to be Danish and some minor areas along the Dutch border (including Gulik, Bentheim, 's Hertogenrade and East Frisia). One thing that I notice is that the Austrian lands including South Tyrol are missing.

Your map is essentially correct.

[Svanhild]

Apart from Sleswick which used to be Danish and some minor areas along the Dutch border (including Gulik, Bentheim, 's Hertogenrade and East Frisia). One thing that I notice is that the Austrian lands including South Tyrol are missing.
You're right about the Danish territory. I know the Austrian part is missing but I focused on the proper eastern borders. :wink

[The Lawspeaker]

You're right about the Danish territory. I know the Austrian part is missing but I focused on the proper eastern borders. :wink
But then again.. it could be an interesting discussion as the Netherlands were part of the Holy Roman Empire. Still it would be sound practice to revise the borders and seek for a real permanent solution.

[poiuytrewq0987]

But then again.. it could be an interesting discussion as the Netherlands were part of the Holy Roman Empire. Still it would be sound practice to revise the borders and seek for a real permanent solution.

Are you saying that Holland should be part of Germany? :D

[The Lawspeaker]

Are you saying that Holland should be part of Germany? :D
No. I am saying that the Netherlands and Germany should fix the borders and maybe exchange some territories.

[Osweo]

You're right about the Danish territory. I know the Austrian part is missing but I focused on the proper eastern borders. :wink

You boese Maedchen! :eek: :p

This seems 'fairer' and more durable:
Was ist des Deutschen Vaterland?
So nenne endlich mir das Land!
So weit die deutsche Zunge klingt
und Gott im Himmel Lieder singt:
Das soll es sein! Das soll es sein!
|: Das wackrer Deutscher, nenne dein! :|
But with the footnote that if other tongues are klinging in an area from century upon century, dein Vaterland muss ein bisschen kleiner sein.
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/7755/oswiuline.gif

(Take it without argument. I'm in a brief generous mood... :tongue)

[Nodens]

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/7755/oswiuline.gif

Heh, Sorbia is so awkwardly placed.

[Jarl]

It's our nature. Ratatatatat. And the machine gun faces east, right into your face. :wink

Fine then. The best map of Germany I could find in its rightful and historical adequate proportions.
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk103/Battlestar_Cydonia/bigger%20germany/8780e3d3.png?t=1217698534


:D Yeah! Sure...


Posen fits into Germany just as well as Mecklenburg-Vorpommern fits into Poland. East Pomerania... Germans were always a minority in Pomerelia (Royal/West Prussia), and this land was part of Poland between X century until 1305 with short periods of independence, and then through 1466-1772/1793. Kashubians never identified themselves with Germans. Kashubenvolk campaign was one great failure. Silesia was also a Polish domain, ruled by the Piasts until XVI-XVII century, and had a substantial Polish population that fought for Poland during the Silesian Uprisings.

But West Pomerania and East Prussia hav had a more complex history. East Prussia was not a German land but Baltic. Southern half was settled with Poles (Masuren), while Northern by Lithuanians and Germans. It was part of Teutonic Order, than part of Poland and a fief of Poland, and later, from mid XVII century, independent. Even in XXth century retained a substantial Polish minority whose growth rate has always been the highest. Out of all these lands West Pomerania had probably the weakest connections to Poland, yet it still had many.


Heh, Sorbia is so awkwardly placed.


Not anymore! :P

http://www.ahistoria.pl/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/od_luzyc_po_slowacje1.jpg

http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/s/so/sorben.jpg

Right across the border... and even closer - now that so many Poles settle in the German DDR border counties. Some take active part and support Lusatian cultural organisations.

Actually, the whole Eastern Lusatia is within the Polish borders now. Just as under the great king Boleslaus!

http://dziwacznemapy.blox.pl/resource/nie_jestesmy_tu_od_wczoraj_compressed.jpg

http://www.ahistoria.pl/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/wielkanoc-na-%C5%82u%C5%BCycach-ralbitz.jpg

Lusatia must survive!


And its Western part must re-join the Lechitic Heimat!

[Osweo]

No. I am saying that the Netherlands and Germany should fix the borders and maybe exchange some territories.

Be careful what you wish for... ;)

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/2710/lowlandexchange.png
:eek:

[poiuytrewq0987]

Go go Greater Holland!


Be careful what you wish for... ;)

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/2710/lowlandexchange.png

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/5001/greaterholland.png

[Jarl]

You're right about the Danish territory. I know the Austrian part is missing but I focused on the proper eastern borders. :wink

"Proper Eastern borders"???



That's king Bolesław's answer to the German Ostsiedlung and the German Emperor:

http://i43.tinypic.com/jzd155.jpg

These are the proper borders:

http://www.halat.pl/panstwo_piastow_i_ziemie_utracone_XII_XIVw.jpg

Bolesław Chrobry knew how to talk to cunning German Ostmargraves...


So did his great-great-(...)-grandson, Wladyslaw. Here, pissed off by the meddling Teutonic thieves:

http://www.pinakoteka.zascianek.pl/Matejko/Images/Wladyslaw_Lokietek.jpg

[Turkophagos]

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/io9/2008/12/map_europa1.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/io9/2008/12/map_europa1.jpg
Err no.

[Turkophagos]

Err no.

No Greater Holland??? :scratch:

[Svanhild]

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/io9/2008/12/map_europa1.jpg

Greater Germany:

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q26/Synchestra_photos/Universe.jpg

Remaining legitimate territory of Greece after paying all debts:

http://www.soleytours.ch/gallery/soleytours/seychellen/ausseninseln/ausseninseln-kleine-insel-650.jpg

Territory of Poland with New Warsaw (not visible; other side of the Iceberg)

http://www.weltderphysik.de/_img/article_large/20032004_EisbergAnt24_SimonSimonAWI_1024_rdax_640x 427.jpg

:p

[The Lawspeaker]

No Greater Holland??? :scratch:
Of course but Hamburg was never Dutch and the areas that we lost to Germany were only minute (apart from East Frisia).
But this map would mean the end of Germany. And it could even advocate genocide on the Germans. On the very heart and soul of Europe.

This is basically what Germany owes us:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Bakker_Schut-plan.PNG

1,2,3,4,5,12,24,25,27,28,29,31,32,35,36. And perhaps some minor villages in some of the adjacent areas but nothing too serious.

The Dutch have no quarrels with the Germans unlike you who is just pissed off because the Germans don't want to bail you fraudulent Greeks out.

[Turkophagos]

But this map would mean the end of Germany. And it could even advocate genocide on the Germans. On the very heart and soul of Europe.


There's a Greater Austria there, that would be enough.

[The Lawspeaker]

There's a Greater Austria there, that would be enough.
I was always under the impression that Austrians were Germans. :) So that would mean a reunification plus Germany/Austria getting back South Tyrol.

[Turkophagos]

I was always under the impression that Austrians were Germans. :) So that would mean a reunification plus Germany/Austria getting back South Tyrol.

I meant it wouldn't be a genocide, Austrian lands should be enough for them.





The Dutch have no quarrels with the Germans unlike you who is just pissed off because the Germans don't want to bail you fraudulent Greeks out.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Bundesarchiv_Bild_141-1114%2C_Rotterdam%2C_Luftaufnahme_von_Br%C3%A4nden .jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Rotterdam.jpg/793px-Rotterdam.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-2005-0003%2C_Rotterdam%2C_Zerst%C3%B6rungen.jpg


I guess you're not from Rotterdam...

[The Lawspeaker]

I meant it wouldn't be a genocide, these lands should be enough for them.
It would be a genocide as their national self-determination would be denied to them.





http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Bundesarchiv_Bild_141-1114%2C_Rotterdam%2C_Luftaufnahme_von_Br%C3%A4nden .jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Rotterdam.jpg/793px-Rotterdam.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-2005-0003%2C_Rotterdam%2C_Zerst%C3%B6rungen.jpg


I guess you're not from Rotterdam...
The war ended a long time ago. If Germany would repay it's debt in handing over those few pastures and villages no one would ever hear about it anymore... and nobody does now either btw.
The only quarrel between the Netherlands and Germany exists on the football pitch.

And whether I am from Rotterdam ? I was born right next door to it (and my grandparents saw the city engulfed in flames- the first reports stating that 30.000 people had died, later on it showed that 950 had lost their lifes) and my grandparent's generation lived through the 1944/1945 Hongerwinter. Which (honestly forces me to admitt it) cannot be blamed solely on the Germans but more on our "Queen" and "Government" in London (the cowards !) that decided to call a railway strike from which they damn well knew what the effects would be in case Market Garden failed. They are the ones that killed 20.000 of our people. Those deaths cannot be solely blamed on the Germans.

When it comes to Dutch-German relations I suggest you leave those to the Dutch and Germans because we actually know each other very well. And we have the 300.000 Germans living here (spread all over the country) and the millions of tourists and the billions worth of investment to prove it. It would be fair to say that the main port of the German Ruhr Area is Rotterdam. If we would block off Rotterdam the German economy would be dead but it would be economical suicide too as the Dutch and Germans are too interrelated (in culture, economy, politics you name it)... and have always been that way.