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Treffie
03-23-2010, 11:21 PM
Old article that I haven't read until today

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They have been dismissed as savages who resisted the march of civilisation. But the remains of a monastery found in the north of Scotland suggest the Picts have been wronged.

The Picts have long been regarded as enigmatic savages who fought off Rome's legions before mysteriously disappearing from history, wild tribesmen who refused to sacrifice their freedom in exchange for the benefits of civilisation. But far from the primitive warriors of popular imagination, they actually built a highly sophisticated culture in northern Scotland in the latter half of the first millennium AD, which surpassed their Anglo-Saxon rivals in many respects.

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00042/picts_42625t.jpg
A depiction of Saint Columba from about 565AD, urging Picts on Iona to become Christians

A study of one the most important archaeological discoveries in Scotland for 30 years, a Pictish monastery at Portmahomack on the Tarbat peninsula in Easter Ross, has found that they were capable of great art, learning and the use of complex architectural principles.

The monastery – an enclosure centred on a church thought to have housed about 150 monks and workers – was similar to St Columba's religious centre at Iona and there is evidence they would have made gospel books similar to the Book of Kells and religious artefacts such as chalices to supply numerous "daughter monasteries".

And, in a discovery described as "astonishing, mind-blowing" by architectural historians, it appears that the people who built the monastery did so using the proportions of "the Golden Section", or "Divine Proportion" as it became known during the Renaissance hundreds of years later. This ratio of dimensions, 1.618 to one, appears in nature, such as in the spiral of seashells, and the faces of people considered beautiful, such as Marilyn Monroe. It can be seen in Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, the Alhambra palace of Granada in Spain, the Acropolis in Athens and the Egyptian Pyramids, but was thought to have been too advanced for the Picts.

"The Picts have always been an attractive lost people, they are one of the most interesting lost peoples of Europe," said Martin Carver, a professor of archaeology at York University who has worked on the site since the mid-1990s, and recently written a book detailing the findings. "The big question is what happened to them and did they ever really make a kingdom of their own."

The answer to the latter question seems an emphatic yes, based on the findings at Portmahomack, which is remote today but would have once been a key point on sea routes in the North Sea. "They would have been dreaming of a New Rome and a new world connected by water rather than Roman roads," said Professor Carver. "They were the most extraordinary artists. They could draw a wolf, a salmon, an eagle on a piece of stone with a single line and produce a beautiful naturalistic drawing. Nothing as good as this is found between Portmahomack and Rome. Even the Anglo-Saxons didn't do stone-carving as well as the Picts did. Not until the post-Renaissance were people able to get across the character of animals just like that."

In addition to stone carving, the archaeologists found evidence that vellum, chalices and other religious artefacts were being made at the site on a considerable scale. Vellum, a form of paper made from animal skin, would have been used to make highly decorative gospel books. The cemetery, containing graves of middle-aged and elderly men almost exclusively, and a piece of stone bearing a tantalisingly incomplete inscription provided other key clues as to the Christian nature of the site.

"The most important piece had a Latin inscription. That's as common as muck in the Mediterranean, but extremely rare in Scotland," said Professor Carver, who previously led research into the Anglo-Saxon burial mound at Sutton Hoo, Suffolk. "It says 'This is the cross of Christ in memory of Reo...' and the rest is broken away. Unfortunately the key bit, the name of the person, is missing. It means there's someone around there who knows how to write in the eighth century. That itself is a revelation."

A Pictish wall, which is believed to have formed part of the original monastery's church, was discovered in the basement of the derelict church on the site, which has now been turned into a visitor centre. But it was the dimensions of another structure within the complex, the "Smith's Hall", that attracted particular attention as it was made with "a startling symmetry offering us more than just competence in construction".

A detailed study was made of the horse-shoe shaped building, searching for the unit of measurement used by the Picts. Professor Carver said a "Tarbat foot" of 12-and-a-half inches seemed to have been the standard measure used to make hall and other parts of the monastery. He also found the ratios of lengths of different walls and bays inside the window conformed to the architectural principle called the Golden Section. "The Golden Section, together with its inverse, the Golden Number, 1.618, has been valued by artists for millennia ... and it is a true delight to observe it among their architects," he said. "It shows the importance of symbol and worship in everything done in the service of the Christian God.

"There is something rather intriguing in the learnt character of them. This is a building put up to house metal workers. It's the idea they were all possessed of the same kind of knowledge and all trying to serve it."

Jean Gowans, who recently retired as chairman of the Architectural Heritage Society of Scotland, said the idea the Picts had been using the Golden Section was "wonderful, astonishing".

"It really is absolutely fascinating. It's mind-blowing stuff," she said. "This is staggering to hear, but I'm not totally surprised. I think they were pretty sophisticated, when you think of all the Pictish stones and the wonderful carvings that they made, a lot more sophisticated than perhaps they are given credit for in public perception."

The monastery at Portmahomack suffered a major fire in the ninth century and several stone sculptures were smashed, suggesting it was sacked by an invading force, likely to be Vikings intent on expanding their territories in northern Scotland. The site continued to be occupied but at this point evidence of a monastic settlement disappears.

However, the shared religion of the Picts and Scots may have helped them unite against a common enemy, ultimately creating the kingdom of Scotland. "There was a war as important as Alfred's against the Danes [in England] and the Picts got really battered. In the Annals of Ulster, there are records of battles where the flower of Pictish aristocracy is killed," Professor Carver said.

"Portmahomack got burnt down pretty definitively round about 820. The idea is they were under new masters. It could be the Norse or the Men of Moray, MacBeth and his family. I think Portmahomack was captured by the Men of Moray. The Norse wanted it badly but they didn't get it. There is no Norse material there. There was no more vellum-making and sculpture and it stopped being a monastery. In the ninth to 11th centuries, they are making metal work, but that's the real Dark Age."

Tribes that resisted the Romans

Picts was the name which the Romans gave to a confederation of tribes living beyond the reach of their empire, north of the Forth and Clyde.

The name makes its first known appearance in the works of a third-century orator, Eumenius, and is assumed to come from the Latin word pingere, "to paint", suggesting they painted or tattooed their bodies.

But what name they called themselves, or what language they spoke, we do not know.

One thing that puzzled outsiders is that they were the last people on these islands to trace their lineage through their mothers. The Venerable Bede, writing in 731, said that the Picts had come from mainland Europe,presumablyScandinavia, to northern Ireland to ask for land, but the Irish sent them on to Scotland.

Hence a myth that the Picts were given Irish wives, on condition that they became matrilineal.

Other wild stories included that they were dark-skinned pygmies who hid in holes in the ground during the afternoon, but had magical powers at night.

Probably they were a coalition of indigenous tribes brought together by the Roman threat.

In Bede's lifetime, the Picts were defeated in war by the Northumbrians and converted to Roman Christianity.

Source (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-truth-about-the-picts-886098.html)

NationalConservative
06-02-2010, 08:21 AM
Bit wad ye say that the Pechts wis a Celtic fowk? Acause A wis tauld last week that thay war fae Troy an war pairt Roman.

Don
06-02-2010, 09:42 AM
Where they the same people that dwelt Iberia, worshipers of Stones in ancient times?
Those ancient westerns/atlantic tribes?

Everything points that.
Time will confirm what romans already pointed and anglosaxon tried to deny.

Osweo
06-02-2010, 11:50 AM
Time will confirm what romans already pointed and anglosaxon tried to deny.

Can I have names of any 'anglosaxon' who ever flatly denied this likelihood? :rolleyes:

Don
06-02-2010, 01:15 PM
Can I have names of any 'anglosaxon' who ever flatly denied this likelihood? :rolleyes:

You understand me perfectly.

Cato
06-02-2010, 07:02 PM
Were the Picts a vestige of an earlier people, like the modern-day Basques? The Picts weren't Celts as far as I know.

Osweo
06-02-2010, 09:36 PM
You understand me perfectly.
Perhaps I don't. Can you elucidate? Here is what you said;

Where they the same people that dwelt Iberia, worshipers of Stones in ancient times?
Those ancient westerns/atlantic tribes?
In other words; all the way up and down the Atlantic litorral, we have related cultures and ethnicities in the prehistoric period, onto which a Celtic society was grafted. NOBODY argues with that!
In Iberia and Northern Britain were located the least Celticised groups surviving. It's uncontested.

Everything points that.
Time will confirm what romans already pointed and anglosaxon tried to deny.
How have the Anglo-Saxons ever tried to deny this? I don't get what you're trying to say.

Were the Picts a vestige of an earlier people, like the modern-day Basques? The Picts weren't Celts as far as I know.
The Picts were largely Celtic in speech by the historical period. Look at the toponymy. ABERdeen, ABERcorn; it's simply a form of Welsh. Even in Roman times we have such blatant Celticisms as Deva, Caledoni, Cornavi, and these right up in the most remote parts.
HOWEVER, there are also more obscure pieces of onomastica, to be collated with the various 'un-IE' social customs observed in Pictland. See Smertae, Taezali etc.

Conclusion; we have a mixed people by this stage. Probably the same process was occuring here in the first centuries AD that had occured elsewhere in Britain and Ireland (Picts are found there too) several centuries earlier, and earlier still in Gaul and Iberia. The difference is, that the process was disrupted, probably by the Roman incursions, and delayed long enough to receive notice in the historical record. By the modern period, however, say... 15th Century or so, Pictland was solidly Gaelic and English in speech, I should imagine. The earlier obscure language was long gone, and even the 'para-Welsh' or whatever you'd like to call it had lost out against the competition offered by the newer languages of the now united Kingdom of Scotland.

Don
06-02-2010, 11:06 PM
"the very name of a Spaniard is reckoned to be frightful and terrible, to all people of humanity or of Christian compassion; as if the kingdom of Spain were particularly eminent for the produce of a race of men who were without principles of tenderness, or the common bowels of pity to the miserable, which is reckoned to be a mark of generous temper in the mind.."

Daniel Defoe in "Robinson Crusoe." 1719 (Genial libro, no obstante).
This is told by an Englishman about the spaniards, who called the english Perros due to their lack of honor, the same spaniards that valued american natives as Humans and protected their lives in early interactions, something that AngloSaxon did some centuries later, including their clean of English América without many pity for the miseable Northern Natives. :) Funny propaganda and leyenda negra dose against the Evil Spaniards, as England did without rest to our days.


...


all the way up and down the Atlantic litorral, we have related cultures and ethnicities in the prehistoric period, onto which a Celtic society was grafted. NOBODY argues with that!
In Iberia and Northern Britain were located the least Celticised groups surviving. It's uncontested.

Major part of interactions in History between England and Spain are about conflicts of mutual contempt. We both know that this rooted displeasure was and is an obstacle to admit without resistance that proven reality. Even with the recent genetic studies and uncontestable evidences that link the ancient roots of Brittain dwellers pre-anglosaxons, and the Iberians, there is a conflict to many in seeing this true.

Osweo
06-03-2010, 02:21 AM
Daniel Defoe
I don't get my ethnography and anthropology from Eighteenth Century novels. Actually, I haven't even read that one! :o

Major part of interactions in History between England and Spain are about conflicts of mutual contempt. We both know that this rooted displeasure was and is an obstacle to admit without resistance that proven reality.
I'm sorry Cristiano, but I'm afraid the Franchutes loom larger in our folk memory... :embarrassed:
Naval struggles of 300 years ago have very little folkloric resonance among my countrymen today.

Even with the recent genetic studies and uncontestable evidences that link the ancient roots of Brittain dwellers pre-anglosaxons, and the Iberians, there is a conflict to many in seeing this true.
But who are you talking about? Idiotic chauvinists and historical-racial-fantasists on web forums? Such fools aren't worth talking about. I've never read a respectable English work on relevant subjects that denied the old Atlantic commonality. Authors differ in emphasis, naturally, but your supposed purveyors of Black Legends are a tiny minority, and roundly mocked. :shrug:

Don
06-03-2010, 11:41 AM
In my opinion the resistance elements at this Western connection imply, for some, a competition with the germanic identity of Anglosaxon influence.

And I DON'T KNOW WHY, but apart from Enya and some irishmen, the people of Britain prefers to defend a theory that keeps them linked to the Germanic Tribes than to Iberian (true ones, not the folkloric semigypsy-moor ones).
Maybe yes, I know... because of the ignorance about the Real Spain, and Most of your folks I've met, had/have a mythic and poor adapted to reality idea about Spain and Spaniards.

Let me doubt your statement.

...

And please, Read that book. I share completely the idea of Russeau: this book should be an obligation to any boy when becomes a man.

The Ripper
06-03-2010, 01:48 PM
http://books.google.fi/books?id=-t0D6iw85M4C&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=picts+finnic&source=bl&ots=Jhi6anlna1&sig=Hn2lWDf-sxWta2saa3qjnBkaBIQ&hl=fi&ei=jLAHTK3gC-CTOLOgtegG&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=picts%20finnic&f=false
;)

Don
06-03-2010, 01:55 PM
http://books.google.fi/books?id=-t0D6iw85M4C&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=picts+finnic&source=bl&ots=Jhi6anlna1&sig=Hn2lWDf-sxWta2saa3qjnBkaBIQ&hl=fi&ei=jLAHTK3gC-CTOLOgtegG&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=picts%20finnic&f=false
;)


http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/8824/tmpphp5fmlqmnw8.jpg

The futhark came from Iberia too. Despite nordicist legends.:coffee:
Atlantic via, it seems, "picts" and Northern Iberians (brittish ;)) as cultural couriers or Germanic tribes, via central Europe, but is uncontested actually the previous presence of Iberian Runes used by the ancient Iberians, misterious (still) people.


http://www.proel.org/index.php?pagina=alfabetos/iberico

Murphy
06-03-2010, 02:00 PM
Sorry, I never new the Picts had anything to do with Anglo-Hispanic point-scoring.

Aviane
06-03-2010, 03:13 PM
^^^ Tell me about it. :laugh:

SuuT
06-03-2010, 04:32 PM
The futhark came from Iberia too.

lol.

...Come on, man.

Pallantides
06-03-2010, 04:40 PM
Plenty of Picts made their way accross the North Sea as thralls.

Don
06-03-2010, 06:18 PM
lol.

...Come on, man.

It's clear you need to revise and be skeptical of your knowledge about the old world.

Ibericus
06-03-2010, 06:19 PM
lol.

...Come on, man.

Come on man : http://www.proel.org/index.php?pagina=alfabetos/iberico

SuuT
06-03-2010, 06:43 PM
It's clear you need to revise and be skeptical of your knowledge about the old world.

How about Greek or Etruscan - Did those come from Iberia? How about Faliscan? Marsilliana? Messapic? Picene? Umbrian? Oscan? How about the Hungarian and Turkish Runa? And Tiffinagh? How about the Sabaean alpha-beta? What is clear is that you don’t appear to understand the organic continuum of written script.


Come on man : http://www.proel.org/index.php?pagina=alfabetos/iberico

Aren't you the guy who thinks that there is a "white" part of the human genome? :D

Liffrea
06-03-2010, 07:07 PM
Nice find Taffy.:thumb001:

I have me a book called Picts and the Scots by Lloyd and Jenny Laing, it’s in my library and never yet read. Somewhat remiss on my part, I share a rare genetic marker with some dude on the Orkney Islands (there is only us two as far as I am aware), perhaps a distant ancestor was a Pict…..

Ibericus
06-03-2010, 07:09 PM
Aren't you the guy who thinks that there is a "white" part of the human genome? :D
No. Sorry to disappoint you.

SuuT
06-03-2010, 07:23 PM
No. Sorry to disappoint you.

:laugh:

Yes, you are. Shall I quote you?

Your first best option would be to ignore me.

Ibericus
06-03-2010, 07:34 PM
:laugh:

Yes, you are. Shall I quote you?

Your first best option would be to ignore me.

Quote me. I have no problem

Don
06-03-2010, 08:03 PM
How about Greek or Etruscan - Did those come from Iberia? How about Faliscan? Marsilliana? Messapic? Picene? Umbrian? Oscan? How about the Hungarian and Turkish Runa? And Tiffinagh? How about the Sabaean alpha-beta? What is clear is that you don’t appear to understand the organic continuum of written script.


Yes, and Africa was the Cradle.
And what about big bang¿!? :o

Come on man...

Center yourself.
http://s2.subirimagenes.com/privadas/previo/thump_938596797pxcasotadefrensii.jpg

Osweo
06-04-2010, 12:30 AM
In my opinion the resistance elements at this Western connection imply, for some, a competition with the germanic identity of Anglosaxon influence.
Essentialists are fools. I take after BOTH my parents!

And I DON'T KNOW WHY, but apart from Enya and some irishmen, the people of Britain prefers to defend a theory that keeps them linked to the Germanic Tribes than to Iberian (true ones, not the folkloric semigypsy-moor ones).
But there are SEVERAL peoples of Britain! Those in the west have more Iberian in them, unsurprisingly. Over in the east and north, we owe a great deal to the Germanics. The migrations were massive - our Eighth Century historian Bede says that the original home of the Engle was emptied, and the demographic tendencies following the invasions will have contributed to the dominance of the English and Norse in many regions. And, concerning the English alone, even if we were only 1/4 Anglo-Saxon by blood, we still get our language and mindset from that quarter.

Maybe yes, I know... because of the ignorance about the Real Spain, and Most of your folks I've met, had/have a mythic and poor adapted to reality idea about Spain and Spaniards.

Let me doubt your statement
Most people are ignorant. That is not news! :p

...

And please, Read that book. I share completely the idea of Russeau: this book should be an obligation to any boy when becomes a man.
:o
In my defence, if a boy were to read every classical novel in my tongue, he'd be an old man by the time he was through!

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/8824/tmpphp5fmlqmnw8.jpg
That is charlatanry of the highest order. The symbols do NOT have the same sound values. The Iberian symbols are actually part of a syllabary anyway, not an alphabet.

Our 'F' is your 'E'. Our 'E' is your 'S'. Our 'G' is your 'Ta'. Our 'H' is your 'Te'. 'T' is 'U', 'O' is 'Be'... THat's more than enough examples to demonstrate the lack of a direct link.

The futhark came from Iberia too. Despite nordicist legends.:coffee:
Atlantic via, it seems, "picts" and Northern Iberians (brittish ;)) as cultural couriers or Germanic tribes, via central Europe, but is uncontested actually the previous presence of Iberian Runes used by the ancient Iberians, misterious (still) people.
I don't see you spelling 'Iberia' with a lower-case 'i', so would you kindly treat Britain and its derivatives with the same respect, Caballero? :.... (Only one T in British too, by the way.)

The closest relative of the FUThARK is Etruscan, and other Italian alphabets. Our Runes and yours share a common Phoenician ancestor, but that is all.

Don
06-04-2010, 10:31 AM
I don't see you spelling 'Iberia' with a lower-case 'i', so would you kindly treat Britain and its derivatives with the same respect, Caballero? :.... (Only one T in British too, by the way.)

http://elsuenodemorfeo.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/57097suicidio_sorry.jpg




The closest relative of the FUThARK is Etruscan, and other Italian alphabets. Our Runes and yours share a common Phoenician ancestor, but that is all.

Well, write things was senseless for our ancestors, Seems that the important things were told to the ear. Nothing important for the clan can be written.

You know, all that oral culture... so, it's obvious these systems came from eastern medit.

BUT, I was defending the atlantic via, by Iberia, of the dissemination of these runic systems, as a cultural-ethnic continuum in western limits of Europe.

Treffie
06-04-2010, 10:42 AM
BUT, I was defending the atlantic via, by Iberia, of the dissemination of these runic systems, as a cultural-ethnic continuum in western limits of Europe.

Read this, very interesting. Atlantic Seaways (http://www.csarmento.uminho.pt/docs/ndat/rg/RGVE1999_005.pdf) by Barry Cunliffe.

...and from wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Europe).



Atlantic European culture at present

A number of authors have postulated that there still is a cultural continuum in Atlantic Europe, forming a cultural unit which has its roots in prehistoric times but remained until today mostly thanks to sea trade. Geographers also mention the influence of the natural environment in the construction of a similar cultural landscape along the western European coasts. Some of the first geographers to consider this idea of Atlantic Europe were Otero Pedrayo and Orlando Ribeiro. Pedrayo stated in his studies about Galicia that this territory was marked by a strong "Atlantic character", not Mediterranean, despite the fact of being part of a Mediterranean state (Spain). On the other hand, while researching about his native Portugal, Ribeiro deepened the concepts of Atlantic Europe and Mediterranean Europe, linking southern Portugal more towards the Mediterranean culture and central and northern Portugal (together with Galicia and Asturias) to a pan-Atlantic European culture/

Don
06-04-2010, 11:44 AM
Read this, very interesting. Atlantic Seaways (http://www.csarmento.uminho.pt/docs/ndat/rg/RGVE1999_005.pdf) by Barry Cunliffe.

...and from wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Europe).

Ken, no one that does the Camino de Santiago would never dare to doubt about that connection. Anyone that visits or knows north/northwest of Spain.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Atlantic-Europe.jpg
This is not a simple map. This corresponds with reality.
In your Camino you, eventually will find yourself in ANCIENT land Asturias
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uXLWz-fqIQs/0.jpg
Astures. These celtic tribes, the astures (David Villa, spanish football team is Astur, you will see him in "mundial" scoring goals for Spain) are 100% iberian and among them we can find one of the most "pure" ancient atlantic tribes, due to historical and geographical facts.http://www.realmadridweb.com/images/david-villa.jpg

http://roble.pntic.mec.es/~jferna22/comenius/fiestas/santiago/camino.gif
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/__lV5KvxnhJ0/ScPJANQ1FII/AAAAAAAAAbc/l0I5vBS_NtY/s400/12022009204.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/__lV5KvxnhJ0/ScPHh1eMAUI/AAAAAAAAAbU/Ck3-Ful67IA/s1600-h/12022009198.jpg

And when I say ancient western/atlantic tribes, I mean 6000 years ago, the Basis and core of our cultures and ethnic groups in western Europe -with the pardon of "new" europeans, the germanics ;))

The visigoths and romans called the Iberians, Worshipers of the Stones, among other things. Sadly we have forgotten the technique to understand the Stones, Fountains... because the pressure of germanic visigoths, latin romans and their semitic cults.

Well, as I told no one with minimum basis of knowledge about Iberia could value entirely Spain as Mediterranean culture, neither ignore the links between ANCIENT western tribes of Atlantic shores.

But another thing is what say the ones that don't know a fuck about Spain but apart from seen in Hollyjewood movies. But we don't value those ignorants, anti-preservers of our ancient cultures, don't we? ;)

Treffie
06-04-2010, 12:34 PM
^It wasn't only a one way migration. There were settlers in Galicia who came from western Britain and Armorica.

Britonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britonia) is the historical name of a settlement in Galicia (northwestern Spain) which was settled in the late 5th and early 6th centuries AD by Romano-Britons escaping the advancing Anglo-Saxons who were conquering Britain at the time. Britonia is therefore similar to Brittany in Gaul in that it was settled by expatriate Britons at roughly the same time.

What little is known of Britonia is deduced from its religious history. The British settlements were recognised at the Council of Lugo in 567 and a separate bishopric established. Mailoc was nominated Bishop of Britonia and signed the acta at the Second Council of Braga in 572. The British Celtic settlements were quickly integrated and their adherence to Celtic rite lasted only until the Fourth Council of Toledo in 633 which uniformized liturgy throughout the Iberian Peninsula, establishing the Iberian rite. The see of Britonia existed at least until 830 when the area was attacked by the Vikings; it may have continued as late as the Council of Oviedo in 900. It was finally merged with the Diocese of Mondoñedo-Ferrol.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Britonia6hcentury.png

Ibericus
06-04-2010, 02:18 PM
^It wasn't only a one way migration. There were settlers in Galicia who came from western Britain and Armorica.

Britonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britonia) is the historical name of a settlement in Galicia (northwestern Spain) which was settled in the late 5th and early 6th centuries AD by Romano-Britons escaping the advancing Anglo-Saxons who were conquering Britain at the time. Britonia is therefore similar to Brittany in Gaul in that it was settled by expatriate Britons at roughly the same time.

What little is known of Britonia is deduced from its religious history. The British settlements were recognised at the Council of Lugo in 567 and a separate bishopric established. Mailoc was nominated Bishop of Britonia and signed the acta at the Second Council of Braga in 572. The British Celtic settlements were quickly integrated and their adherence to Celtic rite lasted only until the Fourth Council of Toledo in 633 which uniformized liturgy throughout the Iberian Peninsula, establishing the Iberian rite. The see of Britonia existed at least until 830 when the area was attacked by the Vikings; it may have continued as late as the Council of Oviedo in 900. It was finally merged with the Diocese of Mondoñedo-Ferrol.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Britonia6hcentury.png

Yes, but this has nothing to do with the Celtic waves into Iberia. This was much later, of course,

Liffrea
06-04-2010, 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by Osweo
And, concerning the English alone, even if we were only 1/4 Anglo-Saxon by blood, we still get our language and mindset from that quarter.

Most of it, but don’t discount the Latin impact (not from Spain) the Norman-French (which took us out of something of an extension of Scandinavia and brought us firmly into the embryonic Western culture) and later England’s part in the Renaissance meld with the scientific revolution. Only a culture strongly influenced by Classical civilisation could have achieved the feat of separating Plato and Aristotle from science. England has existed as a somewhat unique blend of the north and south.

The Celts have barely had a look in, it is practically impossible to trace any real Celtic influence on the English mind, which is quite remarkable really when you think the Celts probably account for at least a good half, if not most, of English population genetics.