Norman-Arab-Byzantine culture

[Ianus]

Topic dedicated to Sikeliot and his hate toward Normans.


The term Norman-Arab-Byzantine culture, Norman-Sicilian culture or, less inclusive, Arab-Norman culture respectively Norman-Arab culture, (sometimes referred to as "Arab-Norman civilization") refers to the interaction of the Norman, Arab and Byzantine culture following the Norman conquest of Sicily from 1061, to around 1250. This civilization resulted from numerous exchanges in the cultural and scientific fields, based on the tolerance showed by the Normans towards the Greek-speaking population and the Muslim settlers. As a result, Sicily under the Normans became a crossroad for the interaction between the Norman-Catholic, Byzantine-Orthodox and Arab-Islamic cultures.

Following the Islamic conquest of Sicily in 965, the Normans managed to conquer the island starting in 1060. The Normans had been expanding south, driven by the myth of a happy and sunny island in the Southern Seas. The Norman Robert Guiscard ("the cunning"), son of Tancred, invaded Sicily in 1060. The island was split between three Arab emirs, and the sizable Christian population rebelled against the ruling Muslims. One year later Messina fell under the leadership of Roger I of Sicily, and in 1071, Palermo was taken by the Normans. The loss of the cities, each with a splendid harbor, dealt a severe blow to Muslim power on the island. Eventually all of Sicily was taken. In 1091, Noto in the southern tip of Sicily and the island of Malta, the last Arab strongholds, fell to the Christians.

By the 11th century Muslim power in the Mediterranean had begun to wane. Under Norman rule, Palermo confirmed its role of one of the great capitals of the Mediterranean.

An intense Norman-Arab-Byzantine culture developed, exemplified by rulers such as Roger II of Sicily, who had Islamic soldiers, poets and scientists at his court. Roger II himself spoke Arabic perfectly and was fond of Arab culture. He used Arab troops and siege engines in his campaigns in southern Italy. He mobilized Arab architects to build monuments in the Norman-Arab-Byzantine style. The various agricultural and industrial techniques which had been introduced by Arabs into Sicily over the two preceding centuries were kept and developed, allowing for the remarkable prosperity of the Island. For Europe, Sicily became a model and an example which was universally admired.

One of the greatest geographical treatises of the Middle Ages was written by the Andalusian Muhammad al-Idrisi for Roger, and entitled Kitab Rudjdjar ("The book of Roger"). The Norman Kingdom of Sicily under Roger II was characterised by its multi-ethnic nature and religious tolerance. Normans, Muslim Arabs, Byzantine Greeks, Longobards and "native" Sicilians lived in harmony. He dreamed of establishing an Empire that would have encompassed Fatimid Egypt and the Crusader states in the Levant.

Although the language of the court was French (Langue d'oïl), all royal edicts were written in the language of the people they were addressed to: Latin, Greek, Arabic, or Hebrew. Roger's royal mantel, used for his coronation (and also used for the coronation of Frederick II), bore an inscription in Arabic with the Hijri date of 528 (1133–1134).

Islamic authors would marvel at the tolerance of the Norman kings:


They [the Muslims] were treated kindly, and they were protected, even against the Franks. Because of that, they had great love for king Roger.
Ibn al-Athir

Interactions continued with the succeeding Norman kings, for example under William II of Sicily, as attested by the Spanish-Arab geographer Ibn Jubair who landed in the island after returning from a pilgrimage to Mecca in 1184. To his surprise, Ibn Jubair enjoyed a very warm reception by the Norman Christians. He was further surprised to find that even the Christians spoke Arabic, that the government officials were still largely Muslim, and that the heritage of some 130 previous years of Muslim rule of Sicily was still intact:


The attitude of the king is really extraordinary. His attitude towards the Muslims is perfect: he gives them employment, he choses his officers among them, and all, or almost all, keep their faith secret and can remain faithful to the faith of Islam. The king has full confidence in the Muslims and relies on them to handle many of his affairs, including the most important ones, to the point that the Great Intendant for cooking is a Muslim (...) His viziers and chamberlains are eunuchs, of which there are many, who are the members of his government and on whom he relies for his private affairs.
Ibn Jubair, Rihla.

Ibn Jubair also mentioned that many Christians in Palermo wore the Muslim dress, and many spoke Arabic. The Norman kings also continued to strike coins in Arabic with Hegira dates. The registers at the Royal court were written in Arabic. At one point, William II of Sicily is recorded to have said: “Everyone of you should invoke the one he adores and of whom he follows the faith”

Numerous artistic techniques from the Islamic world were also incorporated to form the basis of Arab-Norman art: inlays in mosaics or metals, sculpture of ivory or porphyry, sculpture of hard stones, bronze foundries, manufacture of silk (for which Roger II established a regium ergasterium, a state enterprise which would give Sicily the monopoly of silk manufacture for all Europe

The new Norman rulers started to build various constructions in what is called the Arab-Norman style. They incorporated the best practices of Arab and Byzantine architecture into their own art.

The Church of Saint-John of the Hermits, was built in Palermo by Roger II around 1143–1148 in such a style. The church is notable for its brilliant red domes, which show clearly the persistence of Arab influences in Sicily at the time of its reconstruction in the 12th century. In his Diary of an Idle Woman in Sicily, Frances Elliot described it as "... totally oriental... it would fit well in Baghdad or Damascus". The bell tower, with four orders of arcaded loggias, is instead a typical example of Gothic architecture.
"The Cappella Palatina, at Palermo, the most wonderful of Roger's churches, with Norman doors, Saracenic arches, Byzantine dome, and roof adorned with Arabic scripts, is perhaps the most striking product of the brilliant and mixed civilization over which the grandson of the Norman Trancred ruled" (EB1911).
The Cappella Palatina, also in Palermo, combines harmoniously a variety of styles: the Norman architecture and door decor, the Arabic arches and scripts adorning the roof, the Byzantine dome and mosaics. For instance, clusters of four eight-pointed stars, typical for Muslim design, are arranged on the ceiling so as to form a Christian cross.

The Monreale cathedral is generally described as "Norman-Arab-Byzantine". The outsides of the principal doorways and their pointed arches are magnificently enriched with carving and colored inlay, a curious combination of three styles — Norman-French, Byzantine and Arab.

Other examples of Arab-Norman architecture include the Palazzo dei Normanni, or Castelbuono. This style of construction would persist until the 14th and the 15th century, exemplified by the use of the cupola

Arabic art and science continued to be heavily influential in Sicily during the two centuries following the Christian conquest. Norman rule formally ended in 1198 with the reign of Constance of Sicily, and was replaced by that of the Swabian Hohenstaufen Dynasty. Constance's son Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor and King of Sicily in the early 13th century, who was Norman by his mother and Swabian by his father Emperor Henry VI, spoke Arabic and had several Muslim ministers.[citation needed]

In 1224 however, Frederick II, responding to religious uprisings in Sicily, expelled all Muslims from the island, transferring many to Lucera over the next two decades. In this controlled environment, they couldn't challenge royal authority and they benefited the crown in taxes and military service. Their numbers eventually reached between 15,000 and 20,000, leading Lucera to be called Lucaera Saracenorum because it represented the last stronghold of Islamic presence in Italy. The colony thrived for 75 years until it was sacked in 1300 by Christian forces under the command of Charles II of Naples. The city's Muslim inhabitants were exiled or sold into slavery, with many finding asylum in Albania across the Adriatic Sea. Their abandoned mosques were destroyed or converted, and churches arose upon the ruins, including the cathedral S. Maria della Vittoria.

Even under Manfred (died in 1266) Islamic influence in Sicily persisted though, but it had almost disappeared by the beginning of the 14th century. Latin progressively replaced Arabic, however: the last Sicilian document in the Arabic language is dated to 1245

[Tacitus]

Their tolerance also extended into Calabria and Puglia where the Greek language flourished during the Middle Ages thanks to the Normans' laissez-faire attitude towards Latinization.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_a8VAAAAYAAJ&q=Orsigliadi+Mesima#v=onepage&q=Orsigliadi%20Mesima&f=false

The high road beyond [Vibo Valentia] to Mileto and Rosarno proceeds through a country called La Piana di Monteleone, having on each side numerous villages whose names bear unmistakable evidence of their Greek origin. Most of these colonies were found during the Empire, anterior to the Norman conquest, [B]and were encouraged and protected by their new masters. Among these may be mentioned Orsigliadi, Ionadi, Triparni, Papaglionti, Filandari, on the rt. of the road, and on the l. beyond the Mesima Stefanoconi, Paravati, Jerocarne, Potame, Dinami, Melicuca, Garopoli, and Calimera. Most of these colonies retain their dress, language, and national customs, but not their religion.

[Ianus]

Their tolerance also extended into Calabria and Puglia where the Greek language flourished during the Middle Ages thanks to the Normans' laissez-faire attitude towards Latinization.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_a8VAAAAYAAJ&q=Orsigliadi+Mesima#v=onepage&q=Orsigliadi%20Mesima&f=false

In reality The Greek element declined after the Normans; there war a section of the Norman Royal Chancery who wrote in Greek, but around 1200 was suppressed.

[Tacitus]

In reality The Greek element declined after the Normans; there war a section of the Norman Royal Chancery who wrote in Greek, but around 1200 was suppressed.

It still persisted despite forced Latinization by the post-Norman rulers.


This Greek culture of South Italy was known in medieval England because of England’s ties to the Norman masters of Sicily. Large parts of Calabria, Lucania, Apulia, and Sicily were still Greek-speaking at the end of the Middle Ages. Even nineteenth-century travelers in Calabria reported finding Greek villages where they could make themselves understood with the modern language, and a few such enclaves are said to survive still."

And also:
http://www.uoc.edu/euromosaic/web/document/grec/an/i1/i1.html

Towards the end of the 13th century, the political and cultural decline of the Byzantine Empire engulfed the Hellenism of Calabria in a crisis, which it withstood very effectively until the 15th century. From that time on, the various Romance dialects began to prevail in everyday interaction, especially in the urban centres that were open to external influences. There were even scattered pockets of bilingualism in the more remote towns and villages.

[StonyArabia]

It's interesting to see the lasting effect of Arab culture in Sicily being harmonized with the European Byzantine and Norman cultures, but this seems to be the exception, since in Iberia Arab culture died out, so geography also played a role in this.

[Piccolo]

Which ruling dynasty or power really pushed the Latinization of Sicily?

[Vesuvian Sky]

Which ruling dynasty or power really pushed the Latinization of Sicily?

First the Normans, and it continued under the Hohenstaufen Kingdom:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Sicily#Hohenstaufen_kingdom

Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor is an important figure to consider in all this as well.

[Piccolo]

First the Normans, and it continued under the Hohenstaufen Kingdom:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Sicily#Hohenstaufen_kingdom

Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor is an important figure to consider in all this as well.

Thank you. I have read that the Normans and the Swabians (Hohenstaufens) are viewed positively by many Sicilians. Is this true and if so, is it because they were instrumental in Latinizing and Catholicizing the country?

[Tacitus]

Which ruling dynasty or power really pushed the Latinization of Sicily?

It quickened under the Swabians (particularly under Frederick II) with their patronage of the Sicilian School of poetry, which was written in Sicilian; by the time of the Angevins most of the island was Latinized both linguistically and religiously.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Thank you. I have read that the Normans and the Swabians (Hohenstaufens) are viewed positively by many Sicilians. Is this true and if so, is it because they were instrumental in Latinizing and Catholicizing the country?

For the most part yes, particularly the Normans as I have always understood, though not necessarily for the Latinization-Catholicizing per se. The Normans are regarded as a success because they managed to treat their subjects well and not harshly. Hence many wanted to be like them and have their religion. At least that's how I understand it as conversions were not really forced from what I can tell under them though I'm not completely sure of all the details of conversion here. Here's an interesting quote:


More important than this was the evolution of the social fabric of Norman Sicily, adapting essentially Arab institutions to European realities. Throughout the Norman era (roughly from1070 to 1200), ethnic and religious tolerance were generally accepted as integral parts of Sicilian society. Though there were conflicts, multicultural co-existence usually prevailed. The Church, but also the Sicilian language, was gradually Latinized. European institutions such as feudalism were introduced. In effect, Norman Sicily became part of Europe rather than Africa (under the Moors) or Asia (under the Byzantines).

edit: almost forgot the source:http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art171.htm

[Alessio]

There are also new linguistic findings on the Italian language and that it maybe be originally from Sicily.

[Piccolo]

For the most part yes, particularly the Normans as I have always understood, though not necessarily for the Latinization-Catholicizing per se. The Normans are regarded as a success because they managed to treat their subjects well and not harshly. Hence many wanted to be like them and have their religion. At least that's how I understand it as conversions were not really forced from what I can tell under them though I'm not completely sure of all the details of conversion here. Here's an interesting quote:



edit: almost forgot the source:http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art171.htm

Thank you. It is interesting that the Normans are viewed positively by the Sicilians but in Britain they are often seen negatively, especially in England where they are sometimes blamed for oppressing the native Anglo-Saxons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_yoke

[Vesuvian Sky]

Thank you. It is interesting that the Normans are viewed positively by the Sicilians but in Britain they are often seen negatively, especially in England where they are sometimes blamed for oppressing the native Anglo-Saxons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_yoke

Good point. When you watch documentaries like this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?79768-Normans-of-the-South&highlight=normans+south) they are very positive and refer to this time in s. Italian history as "il Regino". However, if you watch the "William the Conqueror" counterpart of this series, the tone is much different.

[Piccolo]

Good point. When you watch documentaries like this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?79768-Normans-of-the-South&highlight=normans+south) they are very positive and refer to this time in s. Italian history as "il Regino". However, if you watch the "William the Conqueror" counterpart of this series, the tone is much different.

Thank you. I wonder if perhaps there is also the issue of the Norman aristocracy continuing to exist in the UK and there being a socio-economic divide between the Normans and other Britons. People with Norman surnames are still wealthier than your average Briton.

Does something like this exist in Sicily or did the Norman-Sicilian aristocracy die out?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8424904/People-with-Norman-names-wealthier-than-other-Britons.html

[Sikeliot]

I will say, as I've said MANY times, I'd choose the Normans over being Muslim today. However, as a Hellenophile, Normans did bring the end of the Greek language and religion on the island, and that (in addition to my general dislike of Northern Europe) is the reason I do not look at the Norman period as brightly as many others.

I do however give them credit for the architecture that resulted and the mixing of cultures.. I just wish it had all ended differently and reoriented us toward Greece.

[Sikeliot]

Thank you. I wonder if perhaps there is also the issue of the Norman aristocracy continuing to exist in the UK and there being a socio-economic divide between the Normans and other Britons. People with Norman surnames are still wealthier than your average Briton.

Does something like this exist in Sicily or did the Norman-Sicilian aristocracy die out?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8424904/People-with-Norman-names-wealthier-than-other-Britons.html

I am unsure about Sicily but I know in Ireland, many common Irish surnames are Norman.

Barrett, Bennett, Burke, Darcy, Fagan, anything with Fitz-, Fleming, Jennings, Keating, Lambert, Meade, Nash, Nugent, Pierce, Plunkett, Prendergast, Purcell, Redmond, Rice, Roche, Russell, Savage, Stafford, Stapleton, Sutton, Walsh, and Warren

are all Norman.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Thank you. I wonder if perhaps there is also the issue of the Norman aristocracy continuing to exist in the UK and there being a socio-economic divide between the Normans and other Britons. People with Norman surnames are still wealthier than your average Briton.

Does something like this exist in Sicily or did the Norman-Sicilian aristocracy die out?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8424904/People-with-Norman-names-wealthier-than-other-Britons.html

Great point and question. From what I can tell, the surname Hauteville or a derivative does'nt seem to exist in Sicily though it still does in Normandy. There may be some other Norman derived surnames in Sicily though I know not of them. However I do know of Filangieri, which is a surname of Italo-Norman heritage and still persists in Naples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filangieri

Its still regarded as an aristocratic name and if you google it you'll find its associated with Italian statesmen well into the 1800's but also philsophers/intellectuals.

[Sikeliot]

Where is Minard777 when we need him, his surname is actually of Norman origins. :lol:

[Sikeliot]

I wonder if Maltese surname Borg is related to the Irish version, Burke. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Burke

[Ulla]

I wonder if Maltese surname Borg is related to the Irish version, Burke. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Burke

Borg is probably related to Italian Borgo/Borghi Borghese/Borgese/Borghesi from Proto-Germanic *burgz "city”, "village"

[Ianus]

It quickened under the Swabians (particularly under Frederick II) with their patronage of the Sicilian School of poetry, which was written in Sicilian; by the time of the Angevins most of the island was Latinized both linguistically and religiously.

Islama Araba history of Sicily practically ended with Frederick II, he crashed several revolts of Arab Sicilians, most were killed or deported and other fled to Africa. Around 1250 Islam in Sicily was eradicated.

[Virtuous]

Frederick II is the man. Why weren't they all booted out immediately in the first place? Much disappointed.

[Ulla]

Which ruling dynasty or power really pushed the Latinization of Sicily?

As written by Vesuvian Sky, the Norman Hauteville family, known in Italian as Altavilla.

Roger's last wife was Adelaide del Vasto, a Piedmontese noble woman belonging to the Aleramici family of Frankish origins (Salian Franks) that ruled for many centuries North-West Italy.

After their marriage, Roger and Adelaide encouraged migrations into Sicily from Adelaide's possessions in North-West Italy. With these migrations of Lombards started the Latinization of Sicily. Lombard is the ethonym used in Medieval times for North-Western Italians. Probably the first Lombards arrived in Sicily as soldiers along with the Normans during the conquest of Sicily.


Per la crisi che travagliava, nella seconda metà del sec. XI, il mondo feudale dell'Italia settentrionale, piccoli vassalli e servi erano indotti ad espatriare per cercare altrove migliore fortuna: notevoli furono le immigrazioni nella Sicilia, poiché i Normanni, sotto la guida di Ruggero I d'Altavilla, andavano smantellando il dominio arabo nell'isola (1060-1091) e creavano in essa un nuovo assetto politico. Tra gli immigrati era anche Enrico del Vasto, figlio del defunto Manfredo: egli, dopo aver dato aiuto, insieme con suoi conterranei, al conte Ruggero, nelle ultime fasi della guerra contro i musulmani, ricevette da lui due vasti conglomerati feudali, le contee di Butera e di Paternò.

Nel 1089 Ruggero I, vedovo per la seconda volta, sposò A., sorella di Enrico, venuta nell'isola con altre due sorelle, le quali erano in pari tempo destinate dallo stesso Ruggero in mogli rispettivamente a due suoi figliuoli.

Alla conclusione di tali matrimoni non furono estranei moventi di ordine politico: Ruggero I veniva insediando gli immigrati in una zona della Sicilia gravitante intorno all'Etna, zona che stava a cavaliere tra l'area occidentale abitata da Arabi e quella orientale popolata da Greco-Bizantini. Era suo interesse legare alla dinastia e ai conquistatori franco-normanni l'affine elemento italico, in cui primeggiavano i del Vasto, e fare di questi elementi etnici di origine latino-germanica un contrappeso agli altri due elementi, l'arabo e il greco, esistenti nell'isola.

http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/adelaide-del-vasto_%28Dizionario_Biografico%29/

[Ianus]

As written by Vesuvian Sky, the Norman Hauteville family, known in Italian as Altavilla.

Roger's last wife was Adelaide del Vasto, a Piedmontese noble woman belonging to the Aleramici family of Frankish origins (Salian Franks) that ruled for many centuries North-West Italy.

After their marriage, Roger and Adelaide encouraged migrations into Sicily from Adelaide's possessions in North-West Italy. With these migrations of Lombards started the Latinization of Sicily. Lombard is the ethonym used in Medieval times for North-Western Italians. Probably the first Lombards arrived in Sicily as soldiers along with the Normans during the conquest of Sicily.



http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/adelaide-del-vasto_%28Dizionario_Biografico%29/

Yet in Sicily a latin Language was spoken before the arrival of Normans, the Island wasn't completely arabized or Grecized as Sikeliot thing.

[Ulla]

Yet in Sicily a latin Language was spoken before the arrival of Normans, the Island wasn't completely arabized or Grecized as Sikeliot thing.

Sicily was a Roman province, that's sure that Latin was spoken there.

But in the case of the Norman period Latinization is a word used by historians not just in terms of language only, but also cultural, ethnic and religious ones.

[Ianus]

In Sicily they had to compete with the Byzantines who took a very severe stance. Normans basically played their cards better and aimed towards getting the population on their side.


The geopolitical situation of South Italy played a big role for the raise of Norman Kingdom: there was a void of power, Duchy of Benevento, the biggest Longobard duchy ad split in several states, the Catapanate of Italy challenged revolts against the central power and the empire had problems against Turks and Peceneghs, the Emirate of Sicily was in a civil war.

[Vesuvian Sky]

As written by Vesuvian Sky, the Norman Hauteville family, known in Italian as Altavilla.

Roger's last wife was Adelaide del Vasto, a Piedmontese noble woman belonging to the Aleramici family of Frankish origins (Salian Franks) that ruled for many centuries North-West Italy.

After their marriage, Roger and Adelaide encouraged migrations into Sicily from Adelaide's possessions in North-West Italy. With these migrations of Lombards started the Latinization of Sicily. Lombard is the ethonym used in Medieval times for North-Western Italians. Probably the first Lombards arrived in Sicily as soldiers along with the Normans during the conquest of Sicily.



http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/adelaide-del-vasto_%28Dizionario_Biografico%29/

Ah I was wondering about that. Is the Altavilla still found in Sicily? Great post BTW.

[Ulla]

Ah I was wondering about that. Is the Altavilla still found in Sicily? Great post BTW.

Yep, Altavilla is a common Southern Italian surname, mostly concentrated in Apulia and Sicily.

http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cognomi-italiani/ALTAVILLA

[Piccolo]

Yep, Altavilla is a common Southern Italian surname, mostly concentrated in Apulia and Sicily.

http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cognomi-italiani/ALTAVILLA

Do Southern Italians take pride in having a Norman surname? In Britain having a Norman surname is often a sign of upper-class ancestry.

[Scandalf]

It's interesting to see the lasting effect of Arab culture in Sicily being harmonized with the European Byzantine and Norman cultures, but this seems to be the exception, since in Iberia Arab culture died out, so geography also played a role in this.

Some words are still in use today, as well as the names of some places. I married in a Cathedral built over a mosque built over an ancient church built upon the ruins of a Greek temple built over a non-Greek native shrine (I saw it!). It seems all blended together. Nothing is really destroyed.

[Sikeliot]

Yet in Sicily a latin Language was spoken before the arrival of Normans, the Island wasn't completely arabized or Grecized as Sikeliot thing.

Most of the population at least on the eastern side of the island would have spoken Greek under Byzantine rule. Anyway, at one point in history all of Sicily spoke Greek.

Calabria, during the Norman conquest still spoke Greek though.

[Sikeliot]

After their marriage, Roger and Adelaide encouraged migrations into Sicily from Adelaide's possessions in North-West Italy. With these migrations of Lombards started the Latinization of Sicily. Lombard is the ethonym used in Medieval times for North-Western Italians.

Having seen many Sicilian genetic results, they could not have been very numerous, because there is very little Northern European admixture in Sicilians, and they are nearly identical to Cretan Greeks.

[Sikeliot]

Some words are still in use today, as well as the names of some places. I married in a Cathedral built over a mosque built over an ancient church built upon the ruins of a Greek temple built over a non-Greek native shrine (I saw it!). It seems all blended together. Nothing is really destroyed.

It's the same way with a lot of the music. It all kind of blends together the influences that have been there.

[Ianus]

Most of the population at least on the eastern side of the island would have spoken Greek under Byzantine rule. Anyway, at one point in history all of Sicily spoke Greek

Wrong, romance Language was attested in Sicily before the Norman conquest, Sicily never become completely Greek


Calabria, during the Norman conquest still spoke Greek though.

Big Greek minority was present only in Southern Calabria, not in all region.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Greco_calabro.jpg

[Panormus]

Actually Latin was spread through whole island during the Roman imperial era and it was used especially by the higher classes of our society. I like Latin much more than Greek :)

[Ulla]

Do Southern Italians take pride in having a Norman surname? In Britain having a Norman surname is often a sign of upper-class ancestry.

Interesting.

Yes, many aristocratic Southern Italian families claim to have Norman ancestry. It's also in South Italy sign of upper-class ancestry, I guess. But there are some differences between South Italy and Britain.

[Ulla]

Having seen many Sicilian genetic results, they could not have been very numerous, because there is very little Northern European admixture in Sicilians, and they are nearly identical to Cretan Greeks.

You repeat all the times. But I do have many doubts about it. Now I go to dinner, we talk about it later.

[Sikeliot]

You repeat all the times. But I do have many doubts about it. Now I go to dinner, we talk about it later.

Maybe in isolated areas but the majority of Sicilians do not have any genetic evidence of significant northern input.

[Sikeliot]

Actually Latin was spread through whole island during the Roman imperial era and it was used especially by the higher classes of our society. I like Latin much more than Greek :)

Proof of this? The general consensus is that the Romans didn't do anything other than exploit the island for grain and serve as a place for retirement for old Roman generals; they left the island Greek.

[Sikeliot]

Wrong, romance Language was attested in Sicily before the Norman conquest, Sicily never become completely Greek


Again, proof please? The consensus is that the Romans were interested in Sicily for economic reasons and left it Greek speaking.

[Sikeliot]

It even says many Christians in Palermo spoke Arabic in the article you (Ianus) posted, so if you have this fantasy that all of Sicily was purely Latin/Roman, that was not true. Not until after the Norman conquest did the majority of the island speak a Romance language.

[Ianus]

Proof of this? The general consensus is that the Romans didn't do anything other than exploit the island for grain and serve as a place for retirement for old Roman generals; they left the island Greek.

Wrong, Greeks were only in the East and in the South of Island. I repeat, wasn't never all Greek
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Sicily_cultures_431bc.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Linguistically they were Greek.

Anyway we know nothing conclusive about the genetic origins of the Sikels and Sicanians. We know Elymians were from Anatolia, probably similar to Armenians and Hittites and whatnot. Sikels might have been Italic, but if that means similar to modern Abruzzese, they are still pretty damn southern genetically.

[Ianus]

It even says many Christians in Palermo spoke Arabic in the article you (Ianus) posted, so if you have this fantasy that all of Sicily was purely Latin/Roman, that was not true. Not until after the Norman conquest did the majority of the island speak a Romance language.

I never said that all Island spoke Latin, this is you that are saying it. I said that the Island wasn't all Greek like you state.

[Sikeliot]

I never said that all Island spoke Latin, this is you that are saying it. I said that the Island wasn't all Greek like you state.

The east would have been Greek. Messina still spoke Greek in the 1400s, in some towns.

The western half would have been a mixture of Latin, Greek, and Arabic. Only after the Norman era did they all speak Romance languages.

Anyway the map above shows why in Palermo and Trapani you see people who look Semitic. Phoenician and Elymian influence.

[Panormus]

Elymians origins aren't sure. One hypotesis says the have Ligurian originins

[Sikeliot]

Elymians origins aren't sure. One hypotesis says the have Ligurian originins

That's the Sikels.

The fact that none of their origins are certain means all we can go by is genetics. And as we can clearly see, Sicilians are all fairly genetically close, except for there being more "exotic" influences in the west (be it recent Middle Eastern, slight amounts of northern influence, etc) while the eastern half is more or less identical to Crete.

[Sikeliot]

Also even if we could prove their origins, we have no way of knowing if these people then were genetically like the people there today.

Anyway, this may interest you:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?143352-Eurogenes-K36-results-for-Italians-and-Greeks!

[Piccolo]

Most Sicilians look more like Greeks to me, but I would say that the issue of ancestry probably comes down to:

1. What was the ethnic composition of Sicily in Antiquity;
2. How many Norman or Lombard people settled in the island after it was conquered from the Muslims; and
2. How many Arabs, Berber, or Greek people left at various points.

We do know the Sicilians were eventually Latinized, so that is obviously true.

[Sikeliot]

Most Sicilians look more like Greeks to me, but I would say that the issue of ancestry probably comes down to:

1. What was the ethnic composition of Sicily in Antiquity;
2. How many Norman or Lombard people settled in the island after it was conquered from the Muslims; and
2. How many Arabs, Berber, or Greek people left at various points.

We do know the Sicilians were eventually Latinized, so that is obviously true.

I don't see why we need to know these things, when we have genetic results now and can compare all of the people.

What we do know is this;

1) Greece is heavily Slavicized, and not comparable to today's Sicily
2) The Levant is heavily Arabized, and thus also more different from us now than in ancient times
3) Sicilians do not cluster with northern Italians, and have one of the lowest amounts of North Euro admixture in Europe
4) Abruzzese had no Greek colonization but are genetically not far from Greeks either.
5) Everyone would have been mixed together at some point.. there would have been no Phoenicians, pure Greeks, etc. Everyone in Sicily would have been a mixture of all these things, and would have identified with the language they spoke.

So really, comparing to modern populations is interesting but doesn't give us much information.

[Panormus]

hypotesis:

1) Sicels=italics or sea peoples
2) Morgeti=italics
3) Sicanians=pre indoeuropean or iberians
4) Elymians=ligurian/celtic or trojan exiles

[Sikeliot]

hypotesis:

1) Sicels=italics or sea peoples
2) Morgeti=italics
3) Sicanians=pre indoeuropean or iberians
4) Elymians=ligurian/celtic or trojan exiles

But we don't know what the genetics were like back then in Iberia, Anatolia, etc.

Also since no Sicilian clusters near any of these really except for southern Italians, Greek islanders etc. we have to assume we'll never know for sure.

[Ulla]

That's the Sikels.

Panormus was right. Elymians (such as the Sicanians) were believed to be related to Ligurians or to other people of Aegean-Anatolian origin.

Sikels are believed to be related to Italics, to other Indoeuropean tribes or to be Italicized.

[Ulla]

hypotesis:

1) Sicels=italics or sea peoples
2) Morgeti=italics
3) Sicanians=pre indoeuropean or iberians
4) Elymians=ligurian/celtic or trojan exiles

Surely not Celtic, because Ligurians were Celtized when Elymians already have settled in Sicily.

[Sikeliot]

Panormus was right. Elymians (such as the Sicanians) were believed to be related to Ligurians or to other people of Aegean-Anatolian origin.

Sikels are believed to be related to Italics, to other Indoeuropean tribes or to be Italicized.

So either way Elymians traced to Anatolia and might not have been too different from Greeks genetically.

The point is we are forgetting, Sicily also had Neolithic inhabitants and was settled in waves like everywhere else. Are you willing to look at a thread I made with GEDmatch results, that might actually be helpful?

[Panormus]

Surely not Celtic, because Ligurians were Celtized when Elymians already settled in Sicily.

Sorry my mistake

[Ianus]

The east would have been Greek. Messina still spoke Greek in the 1400s, in some towns.

The western half would have been a mixture of Latin, Greek, and Arabic. Only after the Norman era did they all speak Romance languages.

Anyway the map above shows why in Palermo and Trapani you see people who look Semitic. Phoenician and Elymian influence.

Messina was heavily latinized/italicized during the III Century BC. However there was a big minorance of Greeks. Arabic were eradicated from the Island in the XIII century. Elymians are of uncertain origin.

[Sikeliot]

Messina was heavily latinized/italicized during the III Century BC. However there was a big minorance of Greeks. Arabic were eradicated from the Island in the XIII century. Elymians are of uncertain origin.

Why is there higher "Near Eastern" influence and North African in western Sicily then? Granted, we know everyone was Latinized, but I suspect a lot of people assimilated.. either that, or Phoenician ancestry had been absorbed into the general population who later would become Latinized.

If you want to see the thread where results have been posted and compiled, I will send it to you. No one seems to want to look because I think they fear what they will see.

[Ulla]

Sorry my mistake


Hesiod, too, is witness in the words cited by Eratosthenes: "The Ethiopians, the Ligurians, and also the Scythians, Hippemolgi."

(Strabo, Geography, Book VII, Chapter 3)

[Ianus]

Why is there higher "Near Eastern" influence and North African in western Sicily then? Granted, we know everyone was Latinized, but I suspect a lot of people assimilated.. either that, or Phoenician ancestry had been absorbed into the general population who later would become Latinized

Could be something more ancient.


If you want to see the thread where results have been posted and compiled, I will send it to you. No one seems to want to look because I think they fear what they will see.

I don't care about genetic results, because i don't believe in a strictly correlation between haplogroups and phenotypes.

[Sikeliot]

I don't care about genetic results, because i don't believe in a strictly correlation between haplogroups and phenotypes.

Genetic results show who was where.

Anyway, the facts are what they are. Southern Italy and Sicily is one genetic unit, along with Maltese, and they are the southernmost plotting southern Europeans, with less Northern influence than Greece.

[Ianus]

Genetic results show who was where.

Anyway, the facts are what they are. Southern Italy and Sicily is one genetic unit, along with Maltese, and they are the southernmost plotting southern Europeans, with less Northern influence than Greece.

Genetic results show that an ancestor of you carry this genotype, but don't say when he come.

[Sikeliot]

Genetic results show that an ancestor of you carry this genotype, but don't say when he come.

I mean autosomal. Are you really that afraid to look at the thread??

[Sikeliot]

Most of admixture events are dated between neolithic and 500 AD. The majority of the J2a though is dated during the bronze age collapse so it's phoenician mostly, not neolithic.


So that means western Sicily at least does have Phoenician ancestry. I always thought that the people we considered "native" Sicilians at the time of the Arab conquest would have been a mixture of a lot of things, one of them Phoenician.

[Ianus]

I mean autosomal. Are you really that afraid to look at the thread??

Show me this thread, however Genotype and phenotype are different things.

[Sikeliot]

Show me this thread, however Genotype and phenotype are different things.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?143352-Eurogenes-K36-results-for-Italians-and-Greeks!

The components that we'd associate with Phoenicians, Carthaginians, and Arabs are the ones I called "MENA" (Arabian, Near Eastern, and North African). Of the 9 people from western Sicily, 7 of them scored at least 20% combined of these, and the lowest was 7%. Of the 9 eastern Sicilians, 5 of them scored above 20% and the lowest was 14%. For the Greeks, it varies between 4-18%.

Neolithic West Asian would be better matched in what I called "Caucasus", which has high Sicilian outliers but is higher in Greeks.

All of the northern and continental European stuff, ranges from around 5% to 16% in Sicily, and between 6% to 35% for the Greeks.

[Ianus]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?136167-No-significant-Near-Eastern-admixture-in-Southeastern-Europe-since-Neolithic-times&p=3052512&viewfull=1#post3052512

Starts from here.

Also notice how Minard dug his own grave :icon_lol:

EDIT: IBDs and autosomal data are before that but they are mostly about greece and the balkans.

I know yet that SS component was negligible.

[Sikeliot]

Date is what matters. Point is that the majority of the ancestry in Sicily comes from post neolithic and bronze age collapse but not recent times.

So based on that how much Norman ancestry would you suggest, or medieval Lombard?

I think it's showing what I have believed.. that MOST Sicilian ancestry comes from the native islanders, Greek colonization, and the Phoenicians.

[Sikeliot]

Here is an interesting article someone wrote on Sicily. She is I believe Palermitan, from the context of this. I find it difficult to dislike Norman history, despite my (perhaps undue) dislike of Northern Europeans due to my experiences with them.

What is clear is a large part of Sicilian culture, if not most of it, developed during Norman rule as the cultures all blended together.

http://www.timesofsicily.com/sicilians-africans-europeans/

"The Arabs and Normans ruled Sicily in medieval times, and left a legacy I see all around me in Sicily today. I see Arabs in the girls with big dark eyes and thick black hair, or in the little boys on the beach with nut brown skin. I see Normans too, in the fishermen with piercing blue eyes whose fair hair is bleached by the sun. I hear the Arabs in the Sicilian language and the place names, and I taste their foods in the pistachio ice cream and the citrus fruits. I shop in the markets they founded as souks over 1,000 years ago. I feel the Catholic legacy of the Normans in the passion that fills the religious processions, and the churches that crowd every town.

The Arabs and the Normans created modern Sicilian society, yet also gave Sicilians an identity crisis from which they have never recovered. Are Sicilians African or European? Most of them will tell you they do not know."

Obviously on this forum the answer is "European", and I do consider Sicilians to be European even with North African influences present in tangible ways. Especially since they are Christians who speak an Indo-European language, and North Africa is Muslim.