Ashkenazi Jews and S. Italians/Sicilians

[Mark]

It has often been observed that many Jews and southern Italians share a similarity in appearance. They often cluster genetically closely, as they have some shared admixture proportions but...

While there are some similarities in appearance, I can usually tell the difference. Why is this?

I speculate it comes down to two different Taurid components that are in reverse order with each group.

Jews, originally from the east-med/Levant, traveled through the Caucasus taking on some distinct Armenoid influence in their appearance; e.g. nose, eye shape, mouth.
Conversely, southern Italians, exhibit a little more 'Dinarid' influence in their look; a type as seen throughout The Balkans and Greece; thinner lips, sharper nose, etc..
These are both Taurid phenotypes that are sometimes confused but are still different from each other.

This is my observation but I encourage other members to share their thoughts.

[Sikeliot]

I can tell them apart by the eyes.

Sicilians and southern Italians often have very large oval eyes, like Greeks. Jews usually do not.

The woman in this photo is a good example.

https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1779314_10200908569988811_855888607_n.jpg?oh=3613c 4cac34dd2495ceaa70307a3ee7e&oe=54C31FDB

[Smeagol]

Ashkenazi Jews have close to zero Armenoid influence, but probably a bit more Semitic on average than S. Italians/Sicilians.

[Mark]

I can tell them apart by the eyes.

Sicilians and southern Italians often have very large oval eyes, like Greeks. Jews usually do not.

I can also usually tell the difference through the eyes/expression but I think many Jews do in fact have large/rounded eyes like myself.

[Sikeliot]

Although it depends. I think southern Italians and Sicilians can overlap with both Jews and with Greeks, but Greeks and Jews are easily distinguishable from one another.

[Mark]

Ashkenazi Jews have close to zero Armenoid influence, but probably a bit more Semitic on average than S. Italians/Sicilians.
If you look at the genetic admixture proportion of Ashkenazi Jews, they score high on 'Caucasus' as well as East med/middle-east areas. But many Jews exhibit no Armenid influence.

[Sikeliot]

Jews usually are slightly less "Caucasus" than Sicilians, but slightly more "Semitic".

[Smeagol]

If you look at the genetic admixture proportion of Ashkenazi Jews, they score high on 'Caucasus' as well as East med/middle-east areas. But many Jews exhibit no Armenid influence.

I don't take genetics into consideration, because most DNA is junk DNA that has no affect on phenotype.

[Black Wolf]

I don't take genetics into consideration, because most DNA is junk DNA that has no affect on phenotype.

The so called ''junk'' DNA still tells you where your ancestors came from though.

[Mark]

I don't take genetics into consideration, because most DNA is junk DNA that has no affect on phenotype.

That's fine, but then why are so many Jews classified as having 'Armenid' influence?

[Smeagol]

The so called ''junk'' DNA still tells you where your ancestors came from though.

But that's irrelevant when talking about racial types.

[Smeagol]

That's fine, but then why are so many Jews classified as having 'Armenid' influence?

I think a lot of people don't have a good idea of what real Armenoids are supposed to look like. I posted some examples in some other threads, but I can't now since I'm on my phone.

[Mark]

Although it depends. I think southern Italians and Sicilians can overlap with both Jews and with Greeks, but Greeks and Jews are easily distinguishable from one another.

Right. But wouldn't you say one of the reasons for this is becuase Greeks have more dinarid and less Armenid?

[Piccolo]

I can tell them apart by the eyes.

Sicilians and southern Italians often have very large oval eyes, like Greeks. Jews usually do not.

The woman in this photo is a good example.

https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1779314_10200908569988811_855888607_n.jpg?oh=3613c 4cac34dd2495ceaa70307a3ee7e&oe=54C31FDB

Good point. I would not guess this woman was Jewish if I saw her, I would think S. Italian, Sicilian or Greek because of the eyes. She is very pretty by the way.

[Mark]

I think a lot of people don't have a good idea of what real Armenoids are supposed to look like. I posted some examples in some other threads, but I can't now since I'm on my phone.

I agree about that. I am just saying that the influence is still present, even if it comes later in the chain in total phenotype. I think S. Italians have less of it than Jews.

[Sakis]

I don't take genetics into consideration, because most DNA is junk DNA that has no affect on phenotype.

That's true but some members here can't understand it.Sikeliot had opened a Cretan vs Sicilian guess thread and i found 4/5 Cretans despite the fact that these populations are geneticaly similar.

[Black Wolf]

But that's irrelevant when talking about racial types.

Do you know by chance how much of an individuals DNA contributes to phenotype? How many genes overall?

[Smeagol]

I agree about that. I am just saying that the influence is still present, even if it comes later in the chain in total phenotype. I think S. Italians have less of it than Jews.

Well both have close to zero Armenoid..

[Sikeliot]

Right. But wouldn't you say one of the reasons for this is becuase Greeks have more dinarid and less Armenid?

Here are some examples of what I mean.

This type of look could be Greek and Sicilian, but is definitely not one we associate with Jews:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2737/4454294499_933cf197e9_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4056/4455074950_061297ace1_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2717/4455074760_e64e016a87_m.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2773/4455076960_68369ba26d_m.jpghttp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8388/8467254934_b1e14fef25_m.jpghttp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8228/8466159063_4fdbf0404b_m.jpghttp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8248/8462356194_70b56223dc_m.jpg





These could be both Sicilian and Jewish, but are not a look that is common in Greece:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8107/8467254686_a02f93576e_m.jpghttp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8375/8467255664_197c2d8376_m.jpghttp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8097/8467256054_41c8c15a46_m.jpghttp://farm8.staticflickr.com/7160/6816233411_debf9b7c86_m.jpghttp://farm2.static.flickr.com/1268/5183255898_907ac00de8_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4125/5182656815_bda2765fd4_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4090/5182655517_5d54cefb38_m.jpg

[Smeagol]

Do you know by chance how much of an individuals DNA contributes to phenotype? How many genes overall?

Not exactly, but it's less than 1%

[Anglojew]

It has often been observed that many Jews and southern Italians share a similarity in appearance. They often cluster genetically closely, as they have some shared admixture proportions but...

While there are some similarities in appearance, I can usually tell the difference. Why is this?

I speculate it comes down to two different Taurid components that are in reverse order with each group.

Jews, originally from the east-med/Levant, traveled through the Caucasus taking on some distinct Armenoid influence in their appearance; e.g. nose, eye shape, mouth.
Conversely, southern Italians, exhibit a little more 'Dinarid' influence in their look; a type as seen throughout The Balkans and Greece; thinner lips, sharper nose, etc..
These are both Taurid phenotypes that are sometimes confused but are still different from each other.

This is my observation but I encourage other members to share their thoughts.

Great minds think alike. I'm literally writing on the same topic:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?143686-Jewish-Phenotypes-By-Epoch-Part-3-Are-Ashkenazi-Jews-An-Italian-Judean-Hybrid-Population

[Tacitus]

Generally southern Italians are Meds of varying types (Alpine, Dinarid, East, etc.). I think the Armenoid/Semitic thing gets a bit overblown here (not saying these types in don't exist in S. Italy of course).

[Sikeliot]

Generally southern Italians are Meds of varying types (Alpine, Dinarid, East, etc.). I think the Armenoid/Semitic thing gets a bit overblown here (not saying these types in don't exist in S. Italy of course).

True Semitic influence in southern Italy (and really, in Europe besides Malta) is limited to the western and southern coasts of Sicily. It has only sporadic distribution elsewhere on the island, but the eastern part is much more similar to Crete.

[Seth MacFarlane]

Well both have close to zero Armenoid..

Not true