Ashkenazi Jews

[magnummagnum]

Please, I would like to know whether Ashenazi Jews can be considered European genetically and/or culturally.

[Guapo]

I suppose they are if they are really descended from Khazars who were converted to Judaism by force in AD 700. The question should be; Are Khazars European? :D The name "Khazar" seems to be tied to a Turkic verb form meaning "wandering" like the name "Scythian" in Slavic languages.

[magnummagnum]

Hi El Guapo, Do you mean that Ashenazi Jews are 100 % Khazar descendant???

In this case, they are not semitic and genetically have nothing in common with other Jewish communities as Sephardim, Italkim, Mizrahim, etc.

[Agrippa]

Ashkenazi Jews are mostly a mixture of Near Eastern and European people genetically, with varying dominances in individuals, families and regions.

Genetically and racially they are Europid, but not European, at least not in their vast majority and genetically.

Culturally and by religion, they are no Europeans neither, they are just here for a longer period of time and, like racially and genetically, in some regards closer than lets say some other Near Easterners. Their religion and traditional language is foreign in any case too.

Still they are no real Europeans by any meaningful standard and most of them dont behave like being ones and acting in a common interest, which is probably the worst aspect.

The Khazar story is nonsense, heavy Mongoloid influence is not present in most of the Ashkenazi Jews.

[Murphy]

To be European is to be Christian for starters. So no, Ashkenazi Jews are not European.

[Freomæg]

To be European is to be Christian for starters. So no, Ashkenazi Jews are not European.
To be TRULY European is to be Pagan, actually.

[Murphy]

To be TRULY European is to be Pagan, actually.

Really? How many pagans are there in Europe? And I don't mean these little pesky annoyances at Apricity who rabbit on about being pagan-this and pagan-that. I am talking about people whose pagan ancestors were never converted to the Faith? Who have an unbroken link back generations of pagan tradition and faith?

[Agrippa]

To be TRULY European is to be Pagan, actually.

Whether you believe in it is less important than that you have a Christian background, your family had a Christian background, thats the case for all of us.

And of course, I'd accept other religions NOW but Europe and the Europeans were formed by Christianity and those with a different background from the past are out.

Crucial is, in Europe, not being member of another monotheistic religion, because those existed not among Europeans and being made up by other, non European groups, Judaism and Islam in particular.

Converting to Judaism or Islam is like giving up your European heritage, like marrying a non-European and bringing up the children with a non-European identity, language and ethnocultural standards. Other confessions are not as problematic in my opinion.

[Tony]

Please, I would like to know whether Ashenazi jews can be considered European genetically and/or culturally.
A Rational and Fact-Based Argument (http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/authors/Sallis-Rational.html) by Ted Sallis
Conclusions

No doubt, there are some Ashkenazi Jews and part-Jews (e.g., “White Advocate”) who self-identify as White, Western, and European, and who sincerely wish to promote Western survival. We can welcome them and their contributions.

But that is not the issue at hand here, which is “White Advocate’s” incorrect assertion that Ashkenazi Jews as a whole are just another “White” ethnic group. No one can deny that different European groups — even closely related and geographically-near ethnies — can be genetically distinguished from each other. Modern genetic analyses can do this, and future, more fine-grained methodologies will perform even better to make these distinctions.

However, the same methods clearly show the Ashkenazim as being highly distinguishable from all types of Europeans. Further, Ashkenazi ethnogenesis cannot be seen as taking place in Europe proper, and they cannot in any way be seen as indigenous to Europe. Culturally and historically they are seen — by Jews and non-Jews alike — as being separate from European non-Jews.

Whether or not they are close enough to Europeans so as to be assimilable and accepted as “White” is another question, and not the subject of this analysis. It is noteworthy that in general Jews have had highly negative perceptions of the people and culture of Europe — a point that is apparent in the work of many scholars and intellectuals, from John Murray Cuddihy to Kevin MacDonald, to the recent book on Jewish liberals by Norman Podhoretz.

It is understandable that individuals such as “White Advocate” do not wish to be marginalized by the standard “White nationalist” argument for Jewish exclusion. However, a proper counter-argument for inclusion must have as its starting point an honest acknowledgement of the fundamental biological and cultural differences separating the Ashkenazim from European gentiles.

Such a realistic appraisal of group differences need not lead to exclusion, nor be seen as “anti-Semitic” in any way. Arguments and counter-arguments can be made as to the political ramifications of these differences, and people like “White Advocate”/”Guy White”/Ian Jobling/Friedrich Braun/Lawrence Auster are free to advocate for Jewish inclusion. The present essay makes no judgments, pro or con, on such inclusion, which is a separate topic entirely.

Indeed, since I would like to be fair and open-mined, I am “agnostic” on that issue. Perhaps “White Advocate”/”Guy White”/Ian Jobling/Friedrich Braun/Lawrence Auster can make arguments of sufficient power so as to convince me to accept their vision of Jewish inclusion. However, they will not convince any knowledgeable person by making dishonest and factually inaccurate “arguments” that completely misrepresent human population genetics data and that present a false model of Jewish identity. One cannot look at the totality of the evidence and claim that the Ashkenazim are just the same as any other “White ethnic” group. It just isn’t so, and “White Advocate” does himself and his agenda a serious disservice by attempting to argue otherwise.




To be European is to be Christian for starters. So no, Ashkenazi Jews are not European.
Sorry no.


To be TRULY European is to be Pagan, actually.
Neither.

In order to be European it doesn't take to believe in any otherworld/spirit/god far from it...

[Don]

Please, southamerican jew, admit that neither argentinians, neither jews are europeans.


And please, don't react trying to offend me and all spaniards (as you sudacas usually do with your inferiority complexes) after reading these words that show facts that are not my responsability.

Thanks.

[The Khagan]

Ashkenazi Jews are mostly a mixture of Near Eastern and European people genetically, with varying dominances in individuals, families and regions.

Genetically and racially they are Europid, but not European, at least not in their vast majority and genetically.

Culturally and by religion, they are no Europeans neither, they are just here for a longer period of time and, like racially and genetically, in some regards closer than lets say some other Near Easterners. Their religion and traditional language is foreign in any case too.

Still they are no real Europeans by any meaningful standard and most of them dont behave like being ones and acting in a common interest, which is probably the worst aspect.

The Khazar story is nonsense, heavy Mongoloid influence is not present in most of the Ashkenazi Jews.

Problem, Ashkenazi traditional language is Yiddish, a Germanic language. They've been in Europe a LONG time, their ethnogenesis as a people was fully realized within Europe. I'd say they're European, but saying they're one or the other is an extreme oversimplification of the complex history and ethnic affiliations of the Ashkenazim...

but for the most part, I'd say yes, they are.

Also, the Khazar theory is just a speculation and somewhat sound, just because they don't have mongoliform influence doesn't mean some Ashkenazim have some genetics with the Khazars. Plus, speculating the phenotype of the Khazars, and indeed all middle age/migration period Turkic and Central Asian nomads is a tough call, seeing as they all heavily mixed with surrounding populations.


To be European is to be Christian for starters. So no, Ashkenazi Jews are not European.

Last time I checked, Christianity and Judaism are from the same place, and are quite similar. In fact, half of your book is THEIR doctrine.

[Agrippa]

To begin with, it doesnt matter how long a group lived here already, its all about the common traits of Europeans. If Neandertals would still exist, they would be no Europeans neither, nor does it interest me whether the Kalmyks are here 5 or 100 generations, they are no Europeans. That doesnt have to mean I hate them or anything like that, they just dont belong to the rest of the European people.


Problem, Ashkenazi traditional language is Yiddish, a Germanic language. They've been in Europe a LONG time, their ethnogenesis as a people was fully realized within Europe.

The Jewish ethnogenesis if bound to their religion, without the religion they wouldnt exist and that didnt happen in Europe, but in the Near East. And even if it happened in Europe, too many aspects are foreign.


Also, the Khazar theory is just a speculation and somewhat sound, just because they don't have mongoliform influence doesn't mean some Ashkenazim have some genetics with the Khazars. Plus, speculating the phenotype of the Khazars, and indeed all middle age/migration period Turkic and Central Asian nomads is a tough call, seeing as they all heavily mixed with surrounding populations.

Point is, some people dont just say some Ashkenazis here and there might have some Khazar influence, but that modern day Ashkenazis are completely descendent of those Judaised Khazar people and thats just wrong.

Genetically Jews are Near Easterners mixed with various European people, mostly those where they reside, be it because of conversion, sexual intercourse, rape, etc.


Last time I checked, Christianity and Judaism are from the same place, and are quite similar. In fact, half of your book is THEIR doctrine.

Which is a problem. The old testament in particular is mainly Jewish history mixed with myths and religious ideas.

Thats why some Christians resided solely or at least mostly on the New Testament. Christianity in Europe is, since Paulus, "Europeanised Judaism", Judaism is Judaism, its not Europeanised, its not European.

An idea can be altered, changed to fit into whats needed in a specific region. Thats how cultural transfer usually worked and it happened with Christianity too.

Some new Christian sects, especially Calvinist ones and those in the English speaking world, even more so the USA, are "New Christians" which ruined a lot of the typically European character and erraded it, made it a weaker religion again - with some positive and many negative consequences.

But thats another story...

[Wulfhere]

Judaism had already been heavily influenced by European culture for centuries even before the time of Jesus, since Judea had been part of the Greek Hellenistic world since the time of Alexander the Great. Judea in Roman times was full of Greek-speakers, and much in Jewish thought had by that time synchretised with Greek thought. Christianity was the ultimate expression of this, since from the beginning it contained Pagan Mystery School elements, such as the Communion feast.

[Osweo]

Judaism had already been heavily influenced by European culture for centuries even before the time of Jesus, since Judea had been part of the Greek Hellenistic world since the time of Alexander the Great. Judea in Roman times was full of Greek-speakers, and much in Jewish thought had by that time synchretised with Greek thought. Christianity was the ultimate expression of this, since from the beginning it contained Pagan Mystery School elements, such as the Communion feast.
The Hellenised Hebrews of the eastern Med are probably not the ancestors of most of the current day Jews. As you've indicated, Christianity was the logical outcome of their Hellenisation, so they ended up part of the Christian communities they lived in, in Egypt, Anatolia and Syria. The greater part have now islamised, I suppose. Perhaps the Sephardim owe something to them, too.

The Ashkenazim are a peculiar lot, and their Talmud is from Babylon - just beyond the reach of the main Hellenising influence. There's a lot of European blood in them, but a lot of Other too. You could say the same for the culture on the whole, too.

The Khazar thing is utter bollocks. I've had to argue it too many times to have the patience to do it again, though. :D

[Agrippa]

The Hellenised Hebrews of the eastern Med are probably not the ancestors of most of the current day Jews. As you've indicated, Christianity was the logical outcome of their Hellenisation, so they ended up part of the Christian communities they lived in, in Egypt, Anatolia and Syria. The greater part have now islamised, I suppose. Perhaps the Sephardim owe something to them, too.


Exactly, the "traditional" and "religious" Jews fought the Hellenised people of their region and had little respect for them. Of course, the Jewish tradition was influenced, but not to the core nor sufficiently and the core which survived is older and more unique than the later influences.

[Óttar]

The Khazar thing is utter bollocks.
Utter bollocks? Some Khazars especially among the upper classes, converted to Judaism in an effort to maintain neutrality with their Christian and Muslim neighbors (a fact that, I might add, other Jews find absolutely hysterical :D)

I wouldn't doubt that at least some Khazars married into other Jewish populations, maybe in eastern Europe.

[Ibericus]

Sorry my friend, but Ashkenazi Jews are genetically closer to middle-easterns than to Europeans. They are not genetically european , as you can see in all these different studies :


All other haplotypes had d values below 20% (data not shown). Themvalues based on haplotypes Med and 1L were '13%610%, suggesting a rather small European contribution to the Ashkenazi paternal gene pool.

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/HammerPNAS_2000.pdf

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While the above studies have examined global population structure, more recent studies have focused on uncovering finer structure within populations of European ancestry themselves. For example [4] studied the ancestry of European Americans using 583 SNP markers. The authors determined that the major feature of European American variation is clinal along a Southeast-Northwest axis, a finding which confirms the above-mentioned work of Cavalli-Sforza [1] based on classical markers.

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/420/priceplotsm4.png

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"Despite the Ashkenazi Jews' long residence in Europe, their Y signature has remained distinct from that of non-Jewish Europeans.

On the assumption that there have been 80 generations since the founding of the Ashkenazi population, Dr. Hammer and colleagues calculate that the rate of genetic admixture with Europeans has been less than half a percent per generation.

Jewish law tracing back almost 2,000 years states that Jewish affiliation is determined by maternal ancestry, so the Y chromosome study addresses the question of how much non-Jewish men may have contributed to Jewish genetic diversity.

Dr. Hammer was surprised to find how little that contribution was."
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In 2001, Nebel et al compared three Jewish and three non-Jewish groups from the Middle East: Ashkenazim, Sephardim, and Kurdish Jews from Israel; Muslim Arabs from Israel and the Palestinian Authority Area; Bedouin from the Negev; and Kurds. They concluded that Sephardim and Kurdish Jews were genetically indistinguishable, but that both were slightly significantly[clarification needed] different from Ashkenazim (who were most closely related to the Kurds). Nebel et al had earlier (2000) found a large genetic relationship between Jews and Palestinians, but in this study found an even higher relationship of Jews with Iraqi Kurds. They conclude that the common genetic background shared by Jews and other Middle Eastern groups predates the division of Middle Easterners into different ethnic
groups[5].

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Jews intermediate between Middle Eastern and European populations (Kopelman et al. 2009)

Fairly interesting that at K=5 a Palestinian cluster emerges, and Jews show mixed affiliations with this cluster and the European one. This is also consistent with the idea that different Jewish populations have a Levantine element in common, and have also undergone admixture with European (or more properly European-like) populations.

A weakness of the study is that it does not look into Gentile populations in the region between Italy and Palestine.

The main issue in Jewish origins is no longer whether they are of Middle Eastern or European (or European-like) origin. It seems pretty clear by now that they are both. The main issue is to determine the origin of their Middle Eastern and European components. This study does offer some new insight by showing the affinity between Jews and Palestinians at K=5 (purple); however the origin of the European (or European-like) component remains elusive.

Abstract

Background: Genetic studies have often produced conflicting results on the
question of whether distant Jewish populations in different geographic locations
share greater genetic similarity to each other or instead, to nearby non-Jewish
populations. We perform a genome-wide population-genetic study of Jewish
populations, analyzing 678 autosomal microsatellite loci in 78 individuals from four
Jewish groups together with similar data on 321 individuals from 12 non-Jewish
Middle Eastern and European populations.

Results: We find that the Jewish populations show a high level of genetic similarity
to each other, clustering together in several types of analysis of population structure.
Further, Bayesian clustering, neighbor-joining trees, and multidimensional scaling
place the Jewish populations as intermediate between the non-Jewish Middle
Eastern and European populations.

Conclusion: These results support the view that the Jewish populations largely
share a common Middle Eastern ancestry and that over their history they have
undergone varying degrees of admixture with non-Jewish populations of European
descent.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/Sx-pMth-rnI/AAAAAAAACEI/VKsn_nlOLRU/s1600/fig2.jpg

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2156-10-80.pdf
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A study of haplotypes of the Y chromosome, published in 2000, addressed the paternal origins of Ashkenazi Jews. Hammer et al.[17] found that the Y chromosome of some Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews contained mutations that are also common among Middle Eastern peoples, but uncommon in the general European population. This suggested that the male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews could be traced mostly to the Middle East. The proportion of male genetic admixture in Ashkenazi Jews amounts to less than 0.5% per generation over an estimated 80 generations, with "relatively minor contribution of European Y chromosomes to the Ashkenazim," and a total admixture estimate "very similar to Motulsky's average estimate of 12.5%." This supported the finding that "Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors."

Hammer, M. F.; A. J. Redd, E. T. Wood, M. R. Bonner, H. Jarjanazi, T. Karafet, S. Santachiara-Benerecetti, A. Oppenheim, M. A. Jobling, T. Jenkins, H. Ostrer, and B. Bonné-Tamir (May 9 2000). "Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 97: 6769. doi:10.1073/pnas.100115997. PMID 10801975

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http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/HammerPNAS_2000.pdf

Genetic and Geographic Distances Among Populations. The ‘‘among
populations’’ variance component (FST) for the Ashkenazi,
Roman, North African, Near Eastern, Kurdish, and Yemenite
Jews (the lowestFST value of the five population groups analyzed
in Table 2) indicated that these Jewish populations were not
significantly different from one another. A series of pairwise
differentiation tests in which 13 of 15 Jewish population pairs
were not statistically different confirmed this result (data not
shown). Furthermore, the mean Jewish interpopulation Chord
(42) distance value was lower than that for any other population
group (data not shown). It is of particular interest that the level
of divergence among Jewish populations was low despite their
high degree of geographic dispersion. The mean geographic
distance among these six Jewish populations was '3,000 km.
This value was greater than the mean geographic distances of the
Middle Eastern ('600 km) and European ('1,700 km) groups
and was comparable to that for the North African group ('2,900
km). In fact, these Jewish populations had the lowest ratio of
genetic-to-geographic distance of all groups in this study.
-----------------------------------------------------------

To address this, we considered a random sample of 611 unrelated self-described Caucasian subjects mostly residing in America who specifically reported whether they had Jewish ancestry, and if so, how many grandparents were 'Jewish'. All individuals were genotyped for approximately 550,000 polymorphic markers and we applied a principal-component-based method to describe the population genetic structure [8] of the sample. Out of the 611 subjects, 507 reported no Jewish ancestry, 55 reported 4 Jewish grandparents, 4 reported 3 Jewish grandparents, 37 reported 2 Jewish grandparents and 8 reported 1 Jewish grandparent. Of these, 23 reported that they were Ashkenazim, one reported four Sephardic grandparents, two reported three Ashkenazi and one Sephardic grandparent, and two reported two Sephardic grandparents. A further 62 provided European or Russian country-of-origin information for at least one grandparent and 14 were able to give no more information than 'European-American'.

Results

Our first test was to assess how accurately individuals with full Jewish ancestry (all four grandparents) could be distinguished from those with no Jewish ancestry using the score on the first principal component axis (PC1). We found that the individuals with full Jewish ancestry formed a clearly distinct cluster from those individuals with no Jewish ancestry (Figure 1). Strikingly, if we look only at the position on the first principal component, in this dataset, every single individual with self-reported full Jewish ancestry has a higher score than any individual with no Jewish ancestry

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/696/jew1x.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/4954/jewm.gif


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[Wulfhere]

Utter bollocks? Some Khazars especially among the upper classes, converted to Judaism in an effort to maintain neutrality with their Christian and Muslim neighbors (a fact that, I might add, other Jews find absolutely hysterical :D)

I wouldn't doubt that at least some Khazars married into other Jewish populations, maybe in eastern Europe.

It's odd, this Khazar theory, because it has been propagated by Jewish writers themselves (such as Arthur Koestler). But these were in the days before DNA tests, which have indeed proven it to be utter bollocks. By utter bollocks, I don't mean that there is no Khazar blood in the Ashkenazi population - simply that Khazar blood does not predominate, and, in fact, is so limited as to not show up in DNA tests. There is far more European blood in the population.

[Pallantides]

Jews and people with Jewish ancestry at 23andMe marked with red.
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3402/juicex.jpg

[Ibericus]

Jews and people with Jewish ancestry at 23andMe marked with red.
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3402/juicex.jpg

That's the Jews who cluster with europeans, but most of them cluster with middle-easterns :

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2156-10-80.pdf

Another one :

AJA = Ashkenzai Jewish American

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/696/jew1x.jpg

And another:
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/420/priceplotsm4.png

[Ibericus]

Ashkenazi

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/420/priceplotsm4.png

[Pallantides]

That's the Jews who cluster with europeans, but most of them cluster with middle-easterns :

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2156-10-80.pdf

Most of them are American Jews, 23andMe's map is not the best though, DeCODEme has a better Map with more dimensions.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Who doesn't like Ashkenazi Jews? Other than that Ashkenazi ends with nazi.

http://wickedchopspoker.blogs.com/my_weblog/images/bar_refaeli_22.jpg

[Ibericus]

NObody likes jews...

http://irritatedtulsan.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/amy-winehouse1.jpg

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/6331/jew9kb2bb.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/%7Ekwbridge/art/barry.jpg

[Pallantides]

NObody likes jews...

http://irritatedtulsan.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/amy-winehouse1.jpg

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/6331/jew9kb2bb.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/%7Ekwbridge/art/barry.jpg

http://cihq.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/scarlett_johansson.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e227/Projectilist/Natalie_Portman.jpg
http://zoesknittingbag.typepad.co.uk/my_weblog/images/lauren_bacall_scanned_photo.jpg
http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/file.php?40,file=7488,filename=israel5.jpg
http://media.divinecaroline.com/ext/article_images2/israeli_female_soldiers/israeli_female_soldiers_idf_women09.jpg
http://www.doobybrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/girls-israel-army.jpg
http://patriotroom.com/images/upload/IDF_Babe_2.jpg
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7OcG_pH5mtUCUVJyhs02paGD-xTfQ58aWXSy2A-zXi3hy6m87Ir8dES-VNzAY6ZCgTp4uaNprEkY14_OL14v8w
http://www.rachelpapo.com/images/serial/serial15.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_l780BaM_siw/SWFXAkTqEWI/AAAAAAAAAgc/xV3COHiBpno/s400/IDF2.jpg
http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/image2/israeli-idf-babe-4.jpg
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/3855/israel27sn6.jpg

[Wulfhere]

“We use the term Jewish race merely for reasons of linguistic convenience, for in the real sense of the word, and from a genetic point of view, there is no Jewish race. [...] The Jewish race is above all a community of the spirit. Spiritual race is of a more solid and more durable kind than natural race.”

Click here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_kampf#Hitler_and_the_.22Sanctity_of_Life.22) to find out who said this.

[Óttar]

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/3855/israel27sn6.jpg etc. etc.

http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/RachelWeisz5.jpg

:love-smiley-036:

[Arne]

Genetically ?
They´re are not really European, they only live in Europe.

Culturally ?
They always pretend to be unique towards other "Zeropeans"
So why should they care about to be European ?

[Pallantides]

Genetically ?
They´re are not really European, they only live in Europe.


Well I have seen plenty of Jewish girls that look like the chick in your avatar. :D

[Ibericus]

Well I have seen plenty of Jewish girls that look like the chick in your avatar. :D

And I have seen 1/4 native americans looking 'white', so ? It doesnt make you european genetically.

[Pallantides]

And I have seen 1/4 native americans looking 'white', so ? It doesnt make you european genetically.
...

I didn't know Norwegians were not genetically European. :eek:

[Ibericus]

...

I didn't know Norwegians were not genetically European. :eek:

I didn't say that :eek:

I said, just because a jew can look white, doesn't make him european genetically, it's the same way i've seen also 1/4 natives americans looking white, and they are not fully european

[Pallantides]

I'm Norwegian.


It doesnt make you european genetically.

[Ibericus]

I'm Norwegian.

You have problems with reading comprehension:
The "you" was not directed to anyone, I said "looking white doesn't make you [whatever the person] genetically european" because I've seen a 1/4 native american who looked white, and also the jews

[Pallantides]

How could I know you didn't target me as a 'Jew' because I disagree with your view of them?
If you had written
'It doesnt make them european genetically.' we would have avoided this confusion.




You have problems with reading comprehension

There is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension. :rolleyes2:

[Ibericus]

I know Norwegians are genetically european. I was not talking about you. You said "that jewish girl looks white" , and I said "looking white doesn't make you genetically european" I was talking in general terms, not about anyone :thumb001:

[Cato]

Why is this coming up again?

[Ibericus]

Why is this coming up again?

There has been a confusion..

[Cato]

There has been a confusion..

Of what kind? :confused:

[Ibericus]

Of what kind? :confused:

I said to a quote about a white looking jewish girl : "white looking doesnt make you genetically white" and Pallantides tought I was talking about him

[Cato]

I said to a quote about a white looking jewish girl : "white looking doesnt make you genetically white" and Pallantides tought I was talking about him

Ohhh, okay. Hopefully it blows over. :)

[Arne]

Well I have seen plenty of Jewish girls
How was it ? :D

[poiuytrewq0987]

How was it ? :D

I'm sure their pussy tasted like kosher meat.

[Pallantides]

I have only known one Jewish girl and she was very pretty, but I never had sex with her.

[lei.talk]

she was very pretty,
but I never had sex with her.from what i have been told,
you missed a memorable ride:

orthodox jewish girls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_a_chosen_people) are particularly thrilled
by the idea of sex with a שייגעץ -

they regard it as beastiality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia)
and will explain that the notion is as exciting
as sex with a schwartza or a well-trained dog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophily).

[Pallantides]

That doesn't sound very flattering:p she was a nice girl and her parents were also polite and helpful.

[Cato]

That doesn't sound very flattering:p she was a nice girl and her parents were also polite and helpful.

That doesn't mean she'd hit the sack with you though. :D

[poiuytrewq0987]

from what i have been told,
you missed a memorable ride:

orthodox jewish girls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_a_chosen_people) are particularly thrilled
by the idea of sex with a שייגעץ -

they regard it as beastiality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia)
and will explain that the notion is as exciting
as sex with a schwartza or a well-trained dog (http://Xenophily).

All the more reason for Orthodox Jewish girls to have sex with non-Jews. I mean who wouldn't want to have sex with animals like us? :D:D

[Blue Cheer]

http://cihq.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/scarlett_johansson.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e227/Projectilist/Natalie_Portman.jpg
http://zoesknittingbag.typepad.co.uk/my_weblog/images/lauren_bacall_scanned_photo.jpg
http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/file.php?40,file=7488,filename=israel5.jpg
http://media.divinecaroline.com/ext/article_images2/israeli_female_soldiers/israeli_female_soldiers_idf_women09.jpg
http://www.doobybrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/girls-israel-army.jpg
http://patriotroom.com/images/upload/IDF_Babe_2.jpg
http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p7OcG_pH5mtUCUVJyhs02paGD-xTfQ58aWXSy2A-zXi3hy6m87Ir8dES-VNzAY6ZCgTp4uaNprEkY14_OL14v8w
http://www.rachelpapo.com/images/serial/serial15.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_l780BaM_siw/SWFXAkTqEWI/AAAAAAAAAgc/xV3COHiBpno/s400/IDF2.jpg
http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/image2/israeli-idf-babe-4.jpg
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/3855/israel27sn6.jpg

Some fine Heebettes in my opinion!

[Agrippa]

How do you know that they are all Ashkenazi Jews?

Some others are mixed or no Jews at all.

[Blue Cheer]

How do you know that they are all Ashkenazi Jews?

Some others are mixed or no Jews at all.

Of course we can't be sure but the ones in the IDF are probably Ashkenaz, plus I've seen alot of Jews who have that Blonde look

[Baron Samedi]

from what i have been told,
you missed a memorable ride:

orthodox jewish girls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_a_chosen_people) are particularly thrilled
by the idea of sex with a שייגעץ -

they regard it as beastiality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia)
and will explain that the notion is as exciting
as sex with a schwartza or a well-trained dog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophily).

I totally need to get on this shit pronto.....

[Fortis in Arduis]

Ashkenazi Jews are somewhat and somewhat not, of Europe.

That is obvious. This is not a question of 'yes' or 'no'. Er... hello?

However, relative to the Jewish people as a whole they are Europeans, obviously.

[Ibericus]

However, relative to the Jewish people as a whole they are Europeans, obviously.
Obviously ? hmm..non-european language, non-european culture, non-european genetically, non-european country, non-european origin...
sure, European obviously:rolleyes:

[Fortis in Arduis]

Obviously ? hmm..non-european language, non-european culture, non-european genetically, non-european country, non-european origin...
sure, European obviously:rolleyes:

I said 'relative to the Jewish people as a whole'.

Did you have a problem comprehending that? :thumbs up

Oh my... this thread, I could just jerk off right now...

[Baron Samedi]

I said 'relative to the Jewish people as a whole'.

Did you have a problem comprehending that? :thumbs up

Oh my... this thread, I could just jerk off right now...

Pics please.

How you been Fortis?

-Hellasson

[Grumpy Cat]

Obviously ? hmm..non-european language, non-european culture, non-european genetically, non-european country, non-european origin...
sure, European obviously:rolleyes:

Actually most Askhkenazi Jews speak Yiddish which is a European language.

[Arne]

But Jews are Jews no matter what Language they speak.
If they do speak Yiddish does it really matter that much to be more european than regular jews ?
I deny..

[The Lawspeaker]

Some fine Heebettes in my opinion!
Indeed.. very impressive but not European. :)

[Grumpy Cat]

Well, it is true that Ashkenazi Jews genetically cluster closer to Levant folks (Palestinians, etc) than to other Europeans... makes sense because they descent from people who migrated to Europe from there.

[Grumpy Cat]

NObody likes jews...


I have no problem with Jews. :rolleyes:

[Ibericus]

Actually most Askhkenazi Jews speak Yiddish which is a European language.
Yddish is a mix of Semitic and germanic, plus most jews today speak Hebrew, not Yiddish, today it is minoritary.

[Grumpy Cat]

Yddish is a mix of Semitic and germanic, plus most jews today speak Hebrew, not Yiddish, today it is minoritary.

The "Hebrew" that Israelis speak is a revived language, and would probably not be recognized by a Hebrew-speaking person living 2000 years ago.

Many Jews in the US speak Yiddish. And English gets a lot of words from Yiddish. My personal favorites being "putz" and "schlong". :p

[Ibericus]

The "Hebrew" that Israelis speak is a revived language, and would probably not be recognized by a Hebrew-speaking person living 2000 years ago.

Many Jews in the US speak Yiddish. And English gets a lot of words from Yiddish. My personal favorites being "putz" and "schlong". :p

Only 3% of Jews in Israel speak Yiddish

[Don]

I have no problem with Jews. :rolleyes:

That is incongruent with defending the preservation of Europe.

[a device]

Please, I would like to know whether Ashenazi Jews can be considered European genetically and/or culturally.

Oh, Lord, I'm starting to see a pattern here. I don't like it one bit.

[Baron Samedi]

That is incongruent with defending the preservation of Europe.

Kill yourself.

[Rachel]

The "Hebrew" that Israelis speak is a revived language, and would probably not be recognized by a Hebrew-speaking person living 2000 years ago.

Many Jews in the US speak Yiddish. And English gets a lot of words from Yiddish. My personal favorites being "putz" and "schlong". :p

This makes me sad, i always thought schlong was an irish word but then again i should have known better. I love this word too but not as much as i used to in referring to an irish mans piece .

[Lulletje Rozewater]

This makes me sad, i always thought schlong was an irish word but then again i should have known better. I love this word too but not as much as i used to in referring to an irish mans piece .

Derived from the German word "(Die) " Schlange", which means "snake" (not Yiddish at all).


"Holy shit that's long!!!" Then was just crammed all together to form schlong.

[Fortis in Arduis]

Please, I would like to know whether Ashenazi Jews can be considered European genetically and/or culturally.

I agree that there is a boring pattern here.

Time for another episode:

7lnwznkq3K0

[Electronic God-Man]

Actually most Askhkenazi Jews speak Yiddish which is a European language.

I've actually wondered just how true this statement is.

First, there's a lot of Hebrew in that language (and Aramaic, Slavic and Romance languages). The rest is a sort of medieval German dialect from along the Rhine where they started out in Europe before most headed East.

But, the word Yiddish means "Judisch" (Jewish) and I'm fairly certain that even German speakers at the time when Yiddish was first spoken could tell it was not "correct" German. So I think it may be comparable to things like the Neger Duits (Nigger Dutch) spoken by the so-called Ramapough Mountain Indians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramapough_Mountain_Indians) or the poor German spoken by Turks in Germany today, or Ebonics spoken by African-Americans, etc.

So does that make it a European language or a creole mish-mash of Hebrew and several European languages?

PS. Funny that I mention Ramapo...as it turns out there is a very large Yiddish speaking population in that very town.
A construction sign in Ramapo:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Yiddishsign.JPG

[Cato]

Michael Savage is an Ashkenazic Jew, and I've heard him call himself white a couple of times on-air. Other than this, I've never heard him say that he's anything but a Jew from the Bronx. Savage's self-definition is similar to what an old [Ashkenazic] Jewish friend of mine uses: he's white and Jewish, no mention of anything else that I've heard.

This means that, in a technical, dictionary sense, some Jews are "white" just as some Jews are also "black." Calling oneself white doesn't make one a European; a goodly number of Middle Easterners are white for example, either by self-definition (such as Farah) or by governmental fiat (on the U.S. census). While all ethnic Europeans are white, generically, not all whites are ethnic Europeans.

Just my proverbial two cents. :)

[The Ripper]

Calling oneself white doesn't make one a European;

Indeed, it rather disqualifies one from being a European. :cool:

[Cato]

I'm getting more and more annoyed when I hear the term, "white." It's a politically convienient, generic term that, to me, has no real basis in reality.

[Rachel]

Derived from the German word "(Die) " Schlange", which means "snake" (not Yiddish at all).

Thank you most kindly.

[Agrippa]

"White" is what you define as white.

Speaking of a "white race" it was always about Europid/Caucasoid in any serious literature. Before Ns., in Ns., after Ns. and WW2.

So if you define "white" as European, which is the only other reasonable definition, it means European Europids with European ethnocultural characteristics in my book.

But in general white is an unclear term unless you define it. Obviously a Turk is no "black or yellow" fellow, neither is the unmixed Arab or Sikh f.e. and the term white race comes from the comparison of the major human races (Europid, Mongolid, Negrid) with the typical white, yellow, black tripartition - probably adding "red" with Indianids as a branch on its own of the wider Mongoloid spectrum.

[Ibericus]

If by white we mean an 'autosomatical european person' aka european europid then maybe we can agree...And Ashkenazis jews are not genetically european,

[The Ripper]

"White" is what you define as white.

Speaking of a "white race" it was always about Europid/Caucasoid in any serious literature. Before Ns., in Ns., after Ns. and WW2.

So if you define "white" as European, which is the only other reasonable definition, it means European Europids with European ethnocultural characteristics in my book.

But in general white is an unclear term unless you define it. Obviously a Turk is no "black or yellow" fellow, neither is the unmixed Arab or Sikh f.e. and the term white race comes from the comparison of the major human races (Europid, Mongolid, Negrid) with the typical white, yellow, black tripartion - probably adding "red" with Indianids as a branch on its own of the wider Mongoloid spectrum.

White in the American context originally stood for Anglo-Saxon Protestant. The Irish, the Germans, not to mention East and South Europeans, were not "white" in the early 19th century. As groups have integrated into the Anglo-Establishment, they became white. So, at least in an American colonial context, white is a cultural and partly ethnic identity, not a race.

[Agrippa]

White in the American context originally stood for Anglo-Saxon Protestant. The Irish, the Germans, not to mention East and South Europeans, were not "white" in the early 19th century. As groups have integrated into the Anglo-Establishment, they became white. So, at least in an American colonial context, white is a cultural and partly ethnic identity, not a race.

Well, such an extreme perspective was hold up by just a few chauvinists which had no idea at all.

Needless to mention that the American idea of "white" and "black" was partly responsible for the "racial confusion" and idea that there are no races at all. I mean if there is a talkshow about "how many colors of black people exist" and the like, like it was discussed in other threads already, any meaningful operation with racial categories becomes absurd.

So lets talk about what normal people with some sort of factual knowledge had in mind if talking about the "white race"...

Obviously the correct term for what you mean would be Anglo-American. But such notions just show how problematic the term "white" can be in an ethnoracial context.

[Electronic God-Man]

I think it has been overstated how much Anglo-Americans thought that Irish and Germans were not white. To my knowledge only Benjamin Franklin ever said that the Germans were not white. He also said that the Swedes were not white. He makes it quite clear that only the English, those Germans of Saxon descent, and "related groups" are white.

I think just about everyone else viewed the Germans as white.

About the Irish...probably more people held the view that they were not white. But again, the reason was because they were Catholic and supposedly prone to drunkenness and violence. It was more of a nasty jab at the Irish to call them "not White" and comparing them to Blacks (or monkeys, same thing) than anything too meaningful from a racial perspective. The idea being that the Irish were different and not like us therefore they can't be white.

On the flip side of this, both the Irish and the Germans were legally allowed to marry "white" people. Why? Because they were considered white by the vast majority of people. And many, many Anglo-Americans did marry Germans or Irish...no one freaked out about "miscegenation" in these cases (though they may have demanded that they convert if they were Catholic). Germans and Irish couldn't legally marry Blacks however. Franklin was calling Germans non-white because he was worried that too many were coming to Pennsylvania and he wanted people to take notice. People said that the Irish were not white because they were worried about too many of them immigrating and wanted that to stop.

The only European group that has some good evidence of having NOT been seen as white by a great number of people are the Southern Europeans. The Italians especially, since that's who came in the largest numbers. Italian kids were literally put in Black schools in the South. They were legally defined as non-White in many cases. Some were lynched.

[Rachel]

Jew = The ultimate nomaid = if i understand the history correctly jews have always travled due to being persecuted in other countries.And have no land or culture or language that is based in Europe. So in my logical view point they are not european.

Just my 0.02 that is very un-educated.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

"White" is what you define as white.

Let's see, we have in South Africa only kaffirs and Africans and Whites
But the Govt hate the word kaffir and African. The latter two are now called sunburned Europeans:D

[Agrippa]

South Africa was much more reasonable as they were at least consequent and made up categories for all important group from the European African society. Including the mixed and related but still considered "non-white" being put in a category of their own (colored etc.).

In the USA they put those mixed which could have been used as an intermediate element and ally in the same category as the "black" and when "black activists" in the post WW2 time were not Jewish influenced-inspired in the background, or even then, most were actually colored rather than Negrid in the strict sense.

That, together with the blurred vision on race, was very problematic then and became virulent, something not just the USA but the whole world is chewing on to this day. Obviously Cultural Marxism was crucial, yet you can make it easier or more difficult for others to criticise racial awareness. All the crap happening in the USA made it much easier to criticise, because some ideas and rules were just plain stupid to begin with.

Really no comparison to the much better and well organised South African System, which too, would have worked out without external pressures and internal problems with "whites" - mostly of Jewish descent as you know I guess.

[Cato]

In the USA they put those mixed which could have been used as an intermediate element and ally in the same category as the "black" and when "black activists" in the post WW2 time were not Jewish influenced-inspired in the background, or even then, most were actually colored rather than Negrid in the strict sense.

You bring to mind an interesting point that's largely forgotten in the U.S., namely that everyone with black ancestry here is the descendant of some slave or another. It's all hogwash, since there were many free blacks, especially in the northern states, and more than a few of these free blacks were also slaveowners. These free blacks often had mixed ancestry and they tended to identify, culturally at least, with their Anglo/European neighbors.

As just one example, the first person killed by the redcoats, a victim of the Boston Massacre, was a fellow named Crispus Attucks, passed off as "black" today, but actually a mixed-race of Amerindian, black, and possibly European ancestry. Other than being a sailor, and a free man, I don't know too much else about the fellow- but I think he's been romanticized, especially by blacks, much like Obama has been.

Another example is that of the 54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry, portrayed in the movie Glory. In the film, the unit is composed mostly of blacks of slave stock, yet, being from Massachusetts, how can this be? Actually, the regiment was composed of free blacks save for the officers:

http://www.black-hawk-design.net/wildwest/54Regement/page10.htm

I suppose it's more daring and dramatic to have a regiment of southerm black runaways than, say, a group of literate, higher-class black men who were citizens of the northern states. :rolleyes: The legacy of the regiment is kick-ass, yet more people seem to remember it based on the politically-correct plot of the film rather than the actual facts of history.

I'll say no more since this has nothing to do with Ashkenazi. :)

[Lulletje Rozewater]

South Africa was much more reasonable as they were at least consequent and made up categories for all important group from the European African society. Including the mixed and related but still considered "non-white" being put in a category of their own (colored etc.).

In the USA they put those mixed which could have been used as an intermediate element and ally in the same category as the "black" and when "black activists" in the post WW2 time were not Jewish influenced-inspired in the background, or even then, most were actually colored rather than Negrid in the strict sense.

That, together with the blurred vision on race, was very problematic then and became virulent, something not just the USA but the whole world is chewing on to this day. Obviously Cultural Marxism was crucial, yet you can make it easier or more difficult for others to criticise racial awareness. All the crap happening in the USA made it much easier to criticise, because some ideas and rules were just plain stupid to begin with.

Really no comparison to the much better and well organised South African System, which too, would have worked out without external pressures and internal problems with "whites" - mostly of Jewish descent as you know I guess.
Absolutely right.
The West has/had this notion that we are all equal and have equal right to live where you want.This notion does lead to cultural mixing in an area and it does lead to jealousy/dislike of one culture over another.
In Zambia I lived next to an African family,who economically was on par with me,but his culture,which was slaughtering/ bleeding to death goats in plain side at festive days and making a fire in the sitting room like a BBQ, and abhorred me.
You can guess the end result------- constantly fighting and rude remarks. Eventually I led my dogs do the chewing by the fence.That was the final straw for this African.

[Myapologies]

Please, southamerican jew, admit that neither argentinians, neither jews are europeans.


And please, don't react trying to offend me and all spaniards (as you sudacas usually do with your inferiority complexes) after reading these words that show facts that are not my responsability.

Thanks.

That's so racist!