Ancient Hungary: Two Neolithic C6 and the oldest J yet.

[Kale]

Results breakdown with mtDna and Y-Dna haplogroups
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/fig_tab/ncomms6257_T1.html

Links to the other portions of the study (some autosomal clustering, PCA, etc.)
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/fig_tab/ncomms6257_ft.html

[Artek]

I see that someone in here carefully reads Eurogenes :D

[Black Wolf]

Yes finally some Y-DNA haplogroup J2a has been found in ancient remains! This J2a sample comes from the Bronze Age Kyjatice culture.

[cally]

Nothing yet for J2b2..

[Black Wolf]

Nothing yet for J2b2..

Not yet no...In time though I am sure some will show up.

[safinator]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Gnh19OW6tcg/VEamwgP4XTI/AAAAAAAAJ0c/C0iD8CluhQE/s1600/ncomms6257-f3.jpg


An interesting thing is that NE7 who seems to have light hair and blue eyes is just like other Sardinian-like farmers of the Neolithic and also has the mtDNA haplogroup N1a1a1a that is ultra-typical for Neolithic people from Europe. So this is a warning not to conflate appearance with ancestry.


http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/images/ncomms6257-f2.jpg

Genotype≠Phenotype since ancient times when someone would think things were more clear cut.

[Hevo]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Gnh19OW6tcg/VEamwgP4XTI/AAAAAAAAJ0c/C0iD8CluhQE/s1600/ncomms6257-f3.jpg



http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/images/ncomms6257-f2.jpg

Genotype≠Phenotype since ancient times when someone would think things were more clear cut.

These results suggest recent positive selection @pigmentation in modern Europeans imo.

Btw, still no R1b.:P

[safinator]

These results suggest recent positive selection @pigmentation in modern Europeans imo.

Btw, still no R1b.:P

We're latecomers, managed to dominate western europe but failed miserably in the eastern parts :(.

[Black Wolf]

These results suggest recent positive selection @pigmentation in modern Europeans imo.

Btw, still no R1b.:P

R1b has appeared in Bell Beaker remains from Germany already has it not?

[Rochefaton]

This J2a sample comes from the Bronze Age Kyjatice culture.

That was an expansion of the Urnfield culture, no?

[Black Wolf]

That was an expansion of the Urnfield culture, no?

It could be I am not sure really though 100%. I am trying to find out more information on the Kyjatice culture from Hungary but I can't find that much.

[Rochefaton]

It could be I am not sure really though 100%. I am trying to find out more information on the Kyjatice culture from Hungary but I can't find that much.

I just checked. It is a late phase of the Southeastern Urnfield complex.

http://cejsh.icm.edu.pl/cejsh/element/bwmeta1.element.desklight-6b6c362f-636f-4f56-90e7-e2275f2e8e80

[Black Wolf]

I just checked. It is a late phase of the Southeastern Urnfield complex.

http://cejsh.icm.edu.pl/cejsh/element/bwmeta1.element.desklight-6b6c362f-636f-4f56-90e7-e2275f2e8e80

Thank you. So the Kyjatice people were Urnfield people.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Finally J2 appears. And it turns out to be in line with Bronze age migration as is increasingly speculated these days. Wonder if it'll be found in an earlier horizon in Europe and where its oldest aDNA sample may lay?

[Black Wolf]

Finally J2 appears. And it turns out to be in line with Bronze age migration as is increasingly speculated these days. Wonder if it'll be found in an earlier horizon in Europe and where its oldest aDNA sample may lay?

Some have speculated that this J2a1 Bronze Age sample may have ancestry from the Maritime Troia culture of Western Anatolia. Right now that is just speculation though but a Bronze Age spread of J2a out of West Asia/Near East seems rather likely.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Some have speculated that this J2a1 Bronze Age sample may have ancestry from the Maritime Troia culture of Western Anatolia. Right now that is just speculation though but a Bronze Age spread of J2a out of West Asia/Near East seems rather likely.

Hmmmm....I wonder if there is more truth to the myths and legends then just being, well, stories. Even the date range of Urnfield culture in C. Europe would seemingly correspond well:

The Urnfield culture (c. 1300 BC – 750 BC)

Although its succeeded by Halstatt culture and preceded by Tumulus culture, which had speculated connections to Unetice and thus BBC & even CWC. It clashes somewhat with various ethno-linguistic theories relating to culture blocs and time depth theory but then again you can't be too sure who exactly is moving in where and when nowadays.

[Rochefaton]

Hmmmm....I wonder if there is more truth to the myths and legends then just being, well, stories. Even the date range of Urnfield culture in C. Europe would seemingly correspond well:

The Urnfield culture (c. 1300 BC – 750 BC)

Although its succeeded by Halstatt culture and preceded by Tumulus culture, which had speculated connections to Unetice and thus BBC & even CWC. It clashes somewhat with various ethno-linguistic theories relating to culture blocs and time depth theory but then again you can't be too sure who exactly is moving in where and when nowadays.

One thing to note, this J2a cat from ancient Hungary clusters at the point where a few modern French and Orcadians start to arc together on the plot. So a connection between this individual, which was found in a site that was part of the Urnfield expansion, and Indo-European speakers of Western Europe may be real.

[Vesuvian Sky]

One thing to note, this J2a cat from ancient Hungary clusters at the point where a few modern French and Orcadians start to arc together on the plot. So a connection between this individual, which was found in a site that was part of the Urnfield expansion, and Indo-European speakers of Western Europe may be real.

In that case I'd speculate its more immediate vector for migration may stem from BBC. Though it doesn't appear the BBC aDNA so far sampled had any J2.

[Black Wolf]

One thing to note, this J2a cat from ancient Hungary clusters at the point where a few modern French and Orcadians start to arc together on the plot. So a connection between this individual, which was found in a site that was part of the Urnfield expansion, and Indo-European speakers of Western Europe may be real.

Yes I find it quite interesting that autosomally this J2a BR2 male is very Western European (French) like. So it is possible then that he may have been an Indo-European speaker?

[Black Wolf]

In that case I'd speculate its more immediate vector for migration may stem from BBC. Though it doesn't appear the BBC aDNA so far sampled had any J2.

How many BBC ancient Y-DNA samples do we actually have? Isn't it only two? Those R1b guys?

[Rochefaton]

So it is possible then that he may have been an Indo-European speaker?

Certainly possible given the location and time in which he lived and where he plots, but we obviously need much more data before anything is certain.


How many BBC ancient Y-DNA samples do we actually have? Isn't it only two? Those R1b guys?

Yep, and the mtDNA found at that same site was as follows:

U2e
U5a1
T1a
K1
W5a

Not very typical for a BBC mtDNA sample. The average BBC sample is over 80% H. In fact, the Kromsdorf site's mtDNA samples look more like something you would find on the steppes. I would caution using this site as a benchmark for the BBC until we have more Y-DNA results from other sites. On another note, we do have Y-DNA from another Urnfield site and it was mostly I2 with one R1b and one R1a sample.

[Black Wolf]

Certainly possible given the location and time in which he lived and where he plots, but we obviously need much more data before anything is certain.



Yep, and the mtDNA found at that same site was as follows:

U2e
U5a1
T1a
K1
W5a

Not very typical for a BBC mtDNA sample. The average BBC sample is over 80% H. In fact, the Kromsdorf site's mtDNA samples look more like something you would find on the steppes. I would caution using this site as a benchmark for the BBC until we have more Y-DNA results from other sites. On another note, we do have Y-DNA from another Urnfield site and it was mostly I2 with one R1b and one R1a sample.

I wonder if the J2a1 Y-DNA result of this Kyjatice guy is just a fluke? That is a stray J2a1 lineage that found it's way into Bronze Age Hungary. It probably is not but we will need more ancient DNA results to really confirm this for sure.

[Rochefaton]

I wonder if the J2a1 Y-DNA result of this Kyjatice guy is just a fluke? That is a stray J2a1 lineage that found it's way into Bronze Age Hungary. It probably is not but we will need more ancient DNA results to really confirm this for sure.

Hard to tell if it is a fluke with just one sample, but I would be surprised if it is. I bet the majority of us thought La Brana being Y-DNA C6/C2a1 was a fluke until this study showed it was more than some Mesolithic regional oddity. I certainly did. Who knows what future aDNA samples will show.

[Black Wolf]

Hard to tell if it is a fluke with just one sample, but I would be surprised if it is. I bet the majority of us thought La Brana being Y-DNA C6/C2a1 was a fluke until this study showed it was more than some Mesolithic regional oddity. I certainly did. Who knows what future aDNA samples will show.

From the looks of it many of the Kyjatice culture people seem to have lived in fortified hilltop settlements. The supplementary information says this about the Kyjatice site.

''Ludas-Varjú-dűlő is situated north of Ludas at the foothills zone of the Mátra
Mountain in Heves County. This large site area was excavated in 1998–2002,
revealing a rich Late Bronze Age settlement area of 18 ha 69,70. This settlement had a
monumental round structure (a ditch bordered by a palisade), which probably served
as a ceremonial center on its eastern side and had an urn cemetery at its northern part.
The inner part of the settlement was full of pits, but house structures were not
preserved.
According to the radiocarbon dates the Late Bronze Age settlement spans the period
between 1,540–1,000 cal BC. More than twenty pits yielded human burials. Pit 2161
contained two skeletons: a 2–3 year old child (specimen BR2, Supplementary Table
1) and an adult female with a similar absolute date as the child (Deb11101, 3130±70
uncal. BP). The ceramics in the pit are typical for the Late Bronze Age Kyjatice
Culture, which is also in good agreement with the absolute radiocarbon dates.''

So it seems that the J2a BR2 male was just a little boy when he died. Sad but life was tougher back then.

[Vesuvian Sky]

How many BBC ancient Y-DNA samples do we actually have? Isn't it only two? Those R1b guys?

Yup and it looks like you and Rochefaton already hit the key points relating to all that. Intersting that the Y-DNA J2 male was a child. Kinda conjures up more questions.

[Black Wolf]

Many of the Kyjatice people seem to have lived in the mountains. Perhaps they were avoiding incoming invaders from the East (steppes)?

[Vesuvian Sky]

Many of the Kyjatice people seem to have lived in the mountains. Perhaps they were avoiding incoming invaders from the East (steppes)?

This is what is contemporary to it from the steppes:


The Srubna culture (Russian: Сру́бная культу́ра, Ukrainian: Зрубна́ культу́ра, also English: Timber-grave culture), was a Late Bronze Age (18th–12th centuries BC) culture. It is a successor to the Yamna culture (Pit Grave culture) and the Poltavka culture.

It occupied the area along and above the north shore of the Black Sea from the Dnieper eastwards along the northern base of the Caucasus to the area abutting the north shore of the Caspian Sea, west of the Ural Mountains to come up against the domain of the approximately contemporaneous and somewhat related Andronovo culture.

The name comes from Russian cруб (srub), "timber framework", from the way graves were constructed. Animal parts were buried with the body.

The economy was mixed agriculture and livestock breeding. The historical Cimmerians have been suggested as descended from this culture.

The Srubna culture is succeeded by Scythians and Sarmatians in the 1st millennium BC, and by Khazars and Kipchaks in the first millennium AD.

Hill-fortifications and what not become rather ubiquitous dating back to the mid-Neolithic. All has to due with the taming of the land and the rise of complex societies and their claims to territory now that the concept of owning land is realized. So need for protection could have arisen from a plethora of threats. Though if Srubna culture artifacts were found nearby....

[Black Wolf]

This is what is contemporary to it from the steppes:



Hill-fortifications and what not become rather ubiquitous dating back to the mid-Neolithic. All has to due with the taming of the land and the rise of complex societies and their claims to territory now that the concept of owning land is realized. So need for protection could have arisen from a plethora of threats. Though if Srubna culture artifacts were found nearby....

Check this link out.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=S7yUM9Dboz0C&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=Kyjatice+tribes&source=bl&ots=Qv-ft8ejun&sig=tCio61qcTCMcZKHsnybTibOiVLQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iE9IVLePAoqjyATxzIGIAQ&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Kyjatice%20tribes&f=false

[Vesuvian Sky]

Check this link out.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=S7yUM9Dboz0C&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=Kyjatice+tribes&source=bl&ots=Qv-ft8ejun&sig=tCio61qcTCMcZKHsnybTibOiVLQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iE9IVLePAoqjyATxzIGIAQ&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Kyjatice%20tribes&f=false

That's interesting. But I can't help to wonder if its inference or based on hard archaeological evidence, namely of a Srubna style axe found embedded in the skull of someone found in at a Kyjatice culture settlement site? I have a feeling they may be inferring it because it would be so logical and with the geographical positioning and all but the archaeologist in me always likes to see the hard evidence.:)

[Skipetar]

The oldest J in Europe will be J2b once they find remains with it. It's no surprise it has higher frequency across Europe and markers up in Sweden, Finland and Russia compared to it's brother marker J2a.

J2b
http://gentis.ru/img/y/M12.gif



J2a
http://gentis.ru/img/y/M67.gif

[Arch Hades]

These results suggest recent positive selection @pigmentation in modern Europeans imo.

Btw, still no R1b.

Why is that? Those prehistoric hungarians are again clustering close to modern Sardinians.....it doesnt surprise me they have typical southern european pigmentation.

more than likely this suggests IMO a new major ancestral Northern European like imput to into modern hungarians and people around that area, not selection.

[Hevo]

Why is that? Those prehistoric hungarians are again clustering close to modern Sardinians.....it doesnt surprise me they have typical southern european pigmentation.

more than likely this suggests IMO a new major ancestral Northern European like imput to into modern hungarians and people around that area, not selection.

According to a recent study it suggests indeed extreme positive selection in Europe during the last 5000y.



Eye, hair, and skin pigmentation are highly variable in humans, particularly in western Eurasian populations. This diversity may be explained by population history, the relaxation of selection pressures, or positive selection. To investigate whether positive natural selection is responsible for depigmentation within Europe, we estimated the strength of selection acting on three genes known to have significant effects on human pigmentation. In a direct approach, these estimates were made using ancient DNA from prehistoric Europeans and computer simulations. This allowed us to determine selection coefficients for a precisely bounded period in the deep past. Our results indicate that strong selection has been operating on pigmentation-related genes within western Eurasia for the past 5,000 y.

Here you can read the whole study:

http://www.pnas.org/content/111/13/4832.abstract

[Graham]

Why is that? Those prehistoric hungarians are again clustering close to modern Sardinians.....it doesnt surprise me they have typical southern european pigmentation.

more than likely this suggests IMO a new major ancestral Northern European like imput to into modern hungarians and people around that area, not selection.

Sardinian doesn't necessarily mean Southern. It means late middle-late Neolithic. Which the Sardinians are the best example of today.

[papa diddy pop]

What surprise me is that the neolithic hungarian C6/C1a2 bearers were autosomally sardinian likes,while La brana also C6 was North-european like.
The same case happens with I2a1 too.
I thought Hunter-gatherer Male would have been wiped out of the surface or at least very diminished,We had to wait for the R1b invasion for that :laugh:.

The only Y-haplogroup who appears strictly Sardinian like is G2a(for the moment).
So Y-dna is not a reliable thing when it comes to guess the autosomal DNA,mtdna otherwise is more reliable even if far from perfect.

[Black Wolf]

What surprise me is that the neolithic hungarian C6/C1a2 bearers were autosomally sardinian likes,while La brana also C6 was North-european like.
The same case happens with I2a1 too.
I thought Hunter-gatherer Male would have been wiped out of the surface or at least very diminished,We had to wait for the R1b invasion for that :laugh:.

The only Y-haplogroup who appears strictly Sardinian like is G2a(for the moment).
So Y-dna is not a reliable thing when it comes to guess the autosomal DNA,mtdna otherwise is more reliable even if far from perfect.

The Middle Neolithic female NE1 is very Neolithic (Sardinian) like when it comes to autosomal DNA and pigmenatation but her mtDNA haplogroup was U5b2c which is the same as La Brana. Clearly she had some small amount of Mesolithic hunter-gatherer ancestry since her mtDNA haplogroup is U5b2c.

[papa diddy pop]

The Middle Neolithic female NE1 is very Neolithic (Sardinian) like when it comes to autosomal DNA and pigmenatation but her mtDNA haplogroup was U5b2c which is the same as La Brana. Clearly she had some small amount of Mesolithic hunter-gatherer ancestry since her mtDNA haplogroup is U5b2c.

Yes But I meant that when you for example sample 20 ancient remains it's very unlikely it turns out to be Only mtdna U and Sardinian like autosomally.While it could by founder effect be only C6 and Sardinian like autosomally.

[Black Wolf]

Yes But I meant that when you for example sample 20 ancient remains it's very unlikely it turns out to be Only mtdna U and Sardinian like autosomally.While it could by founder effect be only C6 and Sardinian like autosomally.

Either way it seems that NE1's maternal line ancestor was a European Mesolithic hunter-gatherer rather than a Neolithic farmer originally.

[papa diddy pop]

Either way it seems that NE1's maternal line ancestor was a European Mesolithic hunter-gatherer rather than a Neolithic farmer originally.

Yeah for sure,Btw do you think I2 was spread by mesolithic/northern european like or Neolithic/sardinian like ? Because I2 hunter-gather we see could be originally farmer who impregnated Female hunter gatherer. We need more ancient dna from europe like 10 000yo before christ to be sure. Because for example Loschbour is from the era of the beginning of farming in his location.

[Black Wolf]

Yeah for sure,Btw do you think I2 was spread by mesolithic/northern european like or Neolithic/sardinian like ? Because I2 hunter-gather we see could be originally farmer who impregnated Female hunter gatherer. We need more ancient dna from europe like 10 000yo before christ to be sure. Because for example Loschbour is from the era of the beginning of farming in his location.

Personally I think that Y-DNA I2 was part of the original Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic hunter-gatherer populations of Europe along with Y-DNA haplogroup I1 which has yet to be found among Mesolithic populations. I think as more samples come in particularly from Mesolithic Eastern Europe some I1 will start showing up. Some R1a and R1b may end up showing up among some Eastern European Mesolithic hunter-gatherers population as well I think. Anyways I can see Y-DNA haplogroup I2 and probably I1 as being the main Y-DNA counterparts to the mtDNA U5, U4 and U2e Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic hunter-gatherer populations of Europe.

[The Sun King]

Surprised to see Haplogroup C in there.