Feudalism- what is it? Why is it degenerate?

[Jamt]

Feudalism- what is it?

Feudalism hardly existed in Scandinavia and our societies have never been feudal. North of central Sweden it newer physically survived simply because the contenders where killed in a society where farmers stuck together and punished threats. The Middle Ages Sweden has among the most peasant (prefer the word farmer) rebellious in Europe and this is/must be the root of democracy. ________________________________________

[Lutiferre]

What a poor thread!

[The Black Prince]

Though I could give a common knowledge explanation of the term, I choose not..

Feudalism is based upon mutual fidelity (the deux-part act of homage and oath of fealty between a lord and his vassal). The system as it was applied in much of Western and Middle Europe during the Middle-Ages was a logic evolution from the former Gefolgschaft politics between Germanic warlords and their (household) troops.

Concerning gefolgschaft politics e.g. Frankish warlords during the Dark Ages divided the spoils of war between their fighters, the high-ranking got the most the low ranking less, or when those low-ranking were dependent on an high-ranking warrior, they received the spoils of war from him.
As you can understand this system is effective in times of war since it binds warriors who in return for their fighting skills applied on the battlefields loyal to their lord received payment (salt -> salari/salary -> soldati ->soldy -> soldier). In peacefull times those warriors where paid/kept happy on the reserves a Cyningy/king/warlord/lord had kept for himself. Easier it is to just give these high ranking warriors a piece of land to use the spoils from while in return they promised loyalty to their lord and to fight for him when necessary. In time the descendants of these warriors/nobles, who intermarried with other warrior/noble family (who owned fealty to other lords) and who also conquered their own lands, owned fealty to multiple lords at the time and they made the ownership of their dowmains inheritable. Some of these nobles owned more land than the descendants of the king who their ancestors pledged homage to (think about William the Conqueror who by the conquest of England was wealthier and more powerfull than his overlord the King of France). Alas from one thing comes the other but in modern English the term "feud", synomymous with generation long conflict between families, is automatically coupled with the term Feudalism (though their roots are different).

The reason why feudalism was common in most of Western and Middle Europe has its origin in the Age of Migration and the following Dark Ages (till ca. 1000AD). Based upon the once Germanic warbands which struck to Europe. Anglo-Saxon England was not Feudal according to this definition (though it had a strong social class system) but it became fully feudalized when William of Normandy conquered it and divided the land between his barons (who in their turn divided it between their underlords).

Scandinavia and some more "rough" parts of Europe like the Frisian lands and the Highlands of Scotland kept to the system, much like the Anglo-Saxon system, based upon social classes (e.g.: slave classes, landless karl/keorl, land-owning keorl/karl, ealdorman/jarl, king), warrior bonds and familiy ties (f.i. Scottish clansystem).

Economically seen Feudalism is a worse kind of government, since a part of the population (the nobles and kings) parasitises on a larger part of the population (serf is a better word than peasant in this case). However because it can be organized to a much higher level than the old Germanic system of social classes, familiy ties and warrior bonds it proved more succesfull in taking over those lands who because of the greater freedom/independance also showed greater dividedness.

The only weakness of feudalism lies in its inner structure, when the overlord is to weak to control his underlords. The underlords will fight between themself (or even the king, to become kings themself), while in the meantime their lands are unprotected (serfs where not allowed to carry or train with weapons) and a ripe meat for the picking for 'new warbands' from warrior-farmer lands (f.i. the Vikings) or warrior-herder lands (f.i. Magyar, Turks, etc..).

[Loddfafner]

Feudalism is a great ideal. It only failed because of flaws in its implementation. It just hasn't been tried in its perfect form. The lords and clergy must have been Jews, that must be why.

[Daos]

Feudalism is a great ideal. It only failed because of flaws in its implementation. It just hasn't been tried in its perfect form.

Sounds like what commies say about communism...:rolleyes:

[Tabiti]

Feudalism is a great ideal.
As long as you're the Feudal himselfl:rolleyes:

[Loddfafner]

Sounds like what commies say about communism...:rolleyes:

Exactly. And also what libertarians and Randroids say about capitalism.

[Borat Paor]

What a poor thread!

At any rate, more interesting than your repetitive wankings on sex and Christianity, Christianity and sex, agnosticism, relation of vaginal sex to putting a hat on one's head etc etc.

[Lutiferre]

At any rate, more interesting than your repetitive wankings on sex and Christianity, Christianity and sex, agnosticism, relation of vaginal sex to putting a hat on one's head etc etc.
Well, congratulations, you read some of my posts in a thread about Christianity on the subject of - surprisingly - Christianity!

I can't claim to have read or care about any of your posts, so this seems to show our difference.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by 50cent
Anglo-Saxon England was not Feudal according to this definition (though it had a strong social class system) but it became fully feudalized when William of Normandy conquered it and divided the land between his barons (who in their turn divided it between their underlords).

Most of what you wrote I agree with, however the degree to which AS England was considered feudal, or not, is a heavily debated subject, it’s not really applicable to sustain the AS non-feudal/Norman-feudal divide, it’s a tad more complex than that, especially when you start to study the Danelaw and the north.....