E1b1b1b2a (M123)

[Ars Moriendi]

Hello. My Y-DNA haplogroup is, as the title says, E1b1b1b2a. As you know I am from Colombia.
This is the information I've found on it so far:

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http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml


E1b1b1b2a (M123)

E-M123 is most commonly found in Ethiopia (5-20%), where it appears to have originated. Its main subclade E-M34 probably emerged in the southern Levant, where it reaches its maximum frequency (10-12% among the Palestinians and the Jews, 8% among the Bedouins, 5% in Lebanon), then expanded in every direction across North Africa (3-5%), the Middle East and South Asia, Anatolia (3-6%) and southern Europe, particularly Italy (1 to 8%). The distribution of E-M123 matches almost exactly the early expansion of farming in the Middle East (see map above) during the Neolithic period, but not so much in Europe, where the only possible association with a Neolithic culture is as a minor haplogroup of the Cardium Pottery culture. E-M123 is conspicuously absent from the part of the Balkans where E-V13 reaches its maximum (Thessaly, Albania, Kosovo) as well as from most Slavic countries, which is strong evidence that M123 wa not associated with the Thessalian Neolithic and its offshoots, like the Linear Pottery culture.

In Europe E-M123 is only observed at frequencies over 2.5% in southern Italy, in the Spanish region Extremadura (4%), and the Balearic islands of Ibiza and Minorca (average 10%). E-M123 could have been brought to the Mediterranean coasts of Europe by the Phoenicians, and to Italy by the Etruscans (from Anatolia). The Romans might have contributed to spreading it around their empire at low frequencies.

E-M34 is the most common form of E1b1b among Jewish people. Based on the few people who tested for tested for deeper subclades, Jewish people can either belong to the M84 or the L791 subclade of M34.

The M293 (aka CTS2297) subclade of M34 has been found among Arabic people from the Arabian peninsula (Kuwait).

Distribution of haplogroup E-M123 in Europe, the Middle East & North Africa

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-M123.gif

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My father's family is rumoured to have hailed from Extremadura (common origin of Spanish settlers during the Imperial Era), and finding that notable patch in the map of Iberia, would seem to make sense.

Some other mentions I've found:

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M123#Subclade_distribution


Adams et al. (2008) found 11 E-M123 people in their 1140 person study of Iberia: 1 out of 95 Eastern Andalusians; 1 out of 100 NW Castilians; 1 out of 80 Catalonians; 2 out of 52 Extramadurans; 2 out of 60 Northern Portuguese, 1 out of 78 Southern Portuguese, 1 out of 73 Southern Portuguese; 1 out of 73 Valencians; and highest levels apparently in the Balearics with 5 out of 37 Minorcans and 4 out of 54 Ibizans.

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Finally, I've found a few comments on another board, that seem to hint that E1b1b1b2a is a marker of Berbers:

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http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3118-Help-me-interpreting-my-23andme-results&

I am not sure if your paternal line E1B1B1B2A is from the Berber branch which is typical for Morocco, Algeria and Tunis. If I am not wrong E1B1B1B2A means M123 which has its strongest presence in Ethiopia and around Palestine


Based on your autosomal results it seems he was E-M81. Without Y-STR haplotype I can not answer you who was him.
He seems to be:

- Berber or
- Morisco or
- Guanchee-ancestral Spaniard or
- Moroccan Jew

----------------------------------------------


I open this thread for those that might share my haplogroup, as well as to ask the rest of you to add more information on this Y-DNA haplogroup if you have any.

[Linebacker]

The whole E1b major group generally consists of Sub-saharan african or Neolithic farmer.

Most common haplogroup for Africans and people on the edges(seacoasts) of Southern Europe.

[Ars Moriendi]

The whole E1b major group generally consists of Sub-saharan african or Neolithic farmer.

Most common haplogroup for Africans and people on the edges(seacoasts) of Southern Europe.

What were "Neolithic" people ethno-racially though? Middle Eastern/Levantine?

[Linebacker]

What were "Neolithic" people ethno-racially though? Middle Eastern/Levantine?

East Mediterranid mostly.

http://s8.imagestime.com/out.php/i879877_eastmediterranid.png

[Geni]

1 jew... what an irony of fate, the tremendous enemy of the jews .. .hat jew origin .....,:heh:

[Gaston]

There is a little misunderstanding.

This is what the E-M35 tree looks like as of 2014 (ISOGG):

51885

It's amateur work, but still accurate enough. There are both the mutations (M123 for instance) and the long ass names (E1b1b1b2a).



The whole E1b major group generally consists of Sub-saharan african or Neolithic farmer.

Most common haplogroup for Africans and people on the edges(seacoasts) of Southern Europe.

I don't know why you still have this idea. You can find E1b in all European populations, not just the south.

[Linebacker]

I don't know why you still have this idea. You can find E1b in all European populations, not just the south.

Thats because the Neolithic farmers spread all around Europe,they didn't just sit in one place.But the highest percentages per population are in the Southern Coasts.

http://p5.storage.canalblog.com/51/63/102164/76775385.jpg

[wvwvw]

Thats because the Neolithic farmers spread all around Europe,they didn't just sit in one place.But the highest percentages per population are in the Southern Coasts.

http://p5.storage.canalblog.com/51/63/102164/76775385.jpg

Bulgarians too carry a lot of E-v13 and is a haplogroup connected with Greek colonization btw. It is very likely that you carry it too ;)


"Both the King et al. E-V13 data, as well as the diverse, mostly European Haplozone E-V13 agree in placing the expansion of this haplogroup squarely in the Aegean Bronze Age.

Aromuns (Vlachs) coalesce to the Roman era, consistent with the idea that they are Balkan natives who became Latinized linguistically at around that era.

Albanians also coalesce to Roman/Late Antique times, consistent with the idea that their high frequency of haplogroup E-V13 (which reaches very high numbers in e.g. Kosovars) is not associated with high diversity. Founder effects in that time frame are the reason for the high frequency of E-V13 in them.

Finally, Slavomacedonians from the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia coalesce well into AD times, at around the time of the first Slavic arrivals in the Balkans. This suggests that E-V13 in them is the result of local founders at around that time who adopted the Slavic language. However, Pericic et al. (2005) (see below) report high (but unspecified) diversity of E-M78α in "Macedonia", so it is possible that a larger number of earlier inhabitants were absorbed.

Pericic et al. (2005) give a 7.3kya estimate for the expansion of E-M78α (almost perfectly equivalent to E-V13) for Southeastern European populations north of Greece. Due to their use of the 3.6x slower mutation rate, this figure needs to be converted to equivalent years. The Nea Nikomedeia time depth was estimated as 9.2kya by King et al. Therefore, the equivalent age for the Pericic et al. (2005) expansion is (7.3/9.2) * 149 generations or 118 generations (1,540-950BC). They note that STR variance is higher in Greece, Macedonia, and Apulia, all areas with well-known historical Greek connections.

Cruciani et al. (2007) propose that E-V13 arrived in Europe from West Asia and underwent an expansion in Europe at 4-4.7 kya. This age is calculated using effective mutation rates that are 2.4 or 2.8 slower than the germline rate, which seems to suggest a Late Bronze Age or even later expansion with a rate closer to the germline one.

In the Balkans, it is fairly clear that E-V13 is mostly concentrated south of the Jirecek Line which separated native Greek from Latin speakers. In Italy, the highest frequencies are found in the south, the areas of historical Greek colonization. High frequencies are also attained in Cyprus. Cyprus also high STR diversity, consistent with an early arrival, suggestive of both early Mycenaean and later colonizations from the Aegean.

Conclusion

The age and distribution of E-V13 chromosomes suggest that expansions of the Greek world in the Bronze and later ages were the major causes of its diffusion.

Who was the E-V13 patriarch in Greece? He was perhaps one of the legendary figures of Greek mythology some of whom are said to have come from abroad. For whatever reason, his progeny grew, and were around to participate in the expansion of the Mycenaean world and the subsequent Greek colonization.

UPDATE (Aug. 1):

An additional piece of evidence is Y-chromosome distribution in Calabria, a Southern Italian region with well-known Greek connections. According to Semino et al. (2004) [Am. J. Hum. Genet. 74:1023–1034, 2004], the Calabrian sample has an E-M78 frequency of 16.3%, whereas "Calabria 2" representing the "Albanian community of the Cosenza province" has only 5.9%. This is consistent with the idea that E-V13 in modern Albanians is to a great degree due to Greek founders (Epirotes or ancient colonists)."

[Ars Moriendi]

There is a little misunderstanding.

This is what the E-M35 tree looks like as of 2014 (ISOGG):

51885

So, following your flowchart, my own haplogroup, E1b1b1b2a, is "Northern Portuguese"?

[Subhuman Animal]

My family have e1b1b we have been tested in refugee camp in France.

[Hubal]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/amazigh.png

[Gaston]

So, following your flowchart, my own haplogroup, E1b1b1b2a, is "Northern Portuguese"?

Not necessarily but it's certainly very closely linked to some of the E-M123 in Northern Portuguese more so than the M123 found in the Near East or Ethiopia. But you need to know first all your mutations. Is E-M123 your last known mutation?


The chart is just an oversimplification because it gives only examples of where each subclade peaks, not the whole picture. It helps with the mutations and geography (vaguely).

[wvwvw]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/amazigh.png

I just realise I have no clue what Amazigh is lol

[Ars Moriendi]

Not necessarily but it's certainly very closely linked to some of the E-M123 in Northern Portuguese more so than the M123 found in the Near East or Ethiopia. But you need to know first all your mutations. Is E-M123 your last known mutation?

The chart is just an oversimplification because it gives only examples of where each subclade peaks, not the whole picture. It helps with the mutations and geography (vaguely).


Yes, that is the last mutation I know of:
E1b1b1b2a, nothing more.

[Stefan_Dusan]

You will need to get an ftDNA test for better results. 23andMe is only for getting the "basic idea" of your haplogroup. However I think you are descended from a Jew or a African given your Colombian history.

[wvwvw]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/amazigh.png

Berbers carry E1b1b too so I consider them our brothers :D

[Gaston]

Yes, that is the last mutation I know of:
E1b1b1b2a, nothing more.

With what company did you get tested?

[AlbanianKing]

You are already a Colombian mongrel, are you sure you really need to worry about exact matters like these?

[Ars Moriendi]

You will need to get an ftDNA test for better results. 23andMe is only for getting the "basic idea" of your haplogroup. However I think you are descended from a Jew or a African given your Colombian history.

In fact, most other Colombians I've seen adding their results to 23andme, seem to have R haplogroups. R1b chiefly.
I looked at the Extremaduran incidence of E-M123 and seems logical. Then again, there was berber mixxing to some extent over there.


With what company did you get tested?
23andme.

[Gaston]

In fact, most other Colombians I've seen adding their results to 23andme, seem to have R haplogroups. R1b chiefly.
I looked at the Extremaduran incidence of E-M123 and seems logical. Then again, there was berber mixxing to some extent over there.


23andme.

If it's 23andme, then you aren't M123 but M165.

[Ars Moriendi]

If it's 23andme, then you aren't M123 but M165.

Oh... I see. Do you know anything about that one?

[Gaston]

M165 also known as E1b1b1b1a (and more basal M81) peaks in Berbers and is part of V257.
V257 (E1b1b1b1) is in turn a cousin of Z827 (E1b1b1b2), and as shown in the chart V257 is the Libyan brother of the Levantine Z827).


E-M81 peaks in Berbers but the second peak is found in Cantabrians of Northernmost Iberia. Cantabrians are very interesting because they also have high amounts (for Iberia and Western Europe) of y-dna R1a.


In my opinion, knowing your ancestry, your paternal lineage is very likely Iberian. Where in Iberia, I don't know. Maybe your surname can be a clue. And as someone said earlier, you need a deep analysis of your Y-dna with ftdna to learn more, because 23andme is obsolete in genotyping Y chromosomes.

[Germaniac]

The whole E1b major group generally consists of Sub-saharan african or Neolithic farmer.

Most common haplogroup for Africans and people on the edges(seacoasts) of Southern Europe.

I could post tons of evidence proving "E*" is of Middle Eastern origin, that E1b is chiefly Caucasian North African and that E in Africa is the result of Caucasians entering Africa from the Middle East. E replaced A and B in most of Africa the same way Asian R1 replaced most I in Europe. E-M123, in the case of Ars Moriendi is of Iberian origin. The Berber mix was minimal in Spain, and E-M123 has existed in Iberia for a long, long time, as shown by the fact autossomal DNA in E-M123 Iberians, specially Cantabrians, has nothing to do with Berber DNA.

[Cristiano viejo]

E1b1b in Iberia

It is highly probable that the E-M81 subclade, most commonly found in Northwest Africa, settled in Iberia before Neolithic herders from the Cardium Pottery culture arrived. Nowadays E-M81 is far more frequent in western Iberia than anywhere else in Europe or the Near East. One could argue that E-M81 came during the Moorish occupation of Spain during the Middle Ages. But then E-M81 would be found chiefly in southern Iberia, and certainly not in the north-west, which was never conquered by the Muslims. Actually the highest percentage of M81 is Iberia is found in the northern region of Cantabria, the most sheltered place in the peninsula, which has been inhabited continuously since the Paleolithic. Modern Cantabrians belong overwhelmingly to mtDNA lineages H, HV, V and U5, and of three samples tested from Palaeolithic Cantabria all belong to one of these haplogroups, a sign of genetic continuity hinting that E-M81 could already have been present in the region back then.

Besides, Neolithic sites in Spain have yielded several samples of African mtDNA (e.g. L1b1 in Andalusia, L2 in the Basque Country, and L3 Valencia). L1b1 is specific to West Africa and could not have come with Near Eastern farmers. Consequently, E-M81 must have come to Iberia at latest during the Neolithic. However, since no Neolithic culture is known to have originated in the Maghreb, it would make more sense if E-M81 came during the Late Paleolithic.

At the Last Glacial Maximum, sea levels were 120 metres lower than today and the Strait of Gibraltar was just a few kilometres wide, permitting even the most primitive raft to cross it easily. Is it merely a coincidence that the last attested trace of Neanderthal in Iberia (actually in Gibraltar itself) dates from 24,000 years ago, a short time before the Last Glacial Maximum ? Could their disappearance be the result of an an absorption by Homo Sapiens from North Africa ? The last Iberian Neanderthals did show some signs of hybridization with Homo Sapiens. Whereas Homo Sapiens indisputably colonised Paleolithic Europe from the Near East, a counter-current colonisation from Northwest Africa is plausible too.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#famous_people

I dont know why your E1b1 could comes from Berbers because they were expelled of Extremadura in the same way than in other Spanish regions. In fact, at the beginning of the Muslim conquest, Extremadura with its capital Merida to the head, remained fairly independent of Moorish government, thanks to taxes.

[Germaniac]

O
E1b1b in Iberia

It is highly probable that the E-M81 subclade, most commonly found in Northwest Africa, settled in Iberia before Neolithic herders from the Cardium Pottery culture arrived. Nowadays E-M81 is far more frequent in western Iberia than anywhere else in Europe or the Near East. One could argue that E-M81 came during the Moorish occupation of Spain during the Middle Ages. But then E-M81 would be found chiefly in southern Iberia, and certainly not in the north-west, which was never conquered by the Muslims. Actually the highest percentage of M81 is Iberia is found in the northern region of Cantabria, the most sheltered place in the peninsula, which has been inhabited continuously since the Paleolithic. Modern Cantabrians belong overwhelmingly to mtDNA lineages H, HV, V and U5, and of three samples tested from Palaeolithic Cantabria all belong to one of these haplogroups, a sign of genetic continuity hinting that E-M81 could already have been present in the region back then.

Besides, Neolithic sites in Spain have yielded several samples of African mtDNA (e.g. L1b1 in Andalusia, L2 in the Basque Country, and L3 Valencia). L1b1 is specific to West Africa and could not have come with Near Eastern farmers. Consequently, E-M81 must have come to Iberia at latest during the Neolithic. However, since no Neolithic culture is known to have originated in the Maghreb, it would make more sense if E-M81 came during the Late Paleolithic.

At the Last Glacial Maximum, sea levels were 120 metres lower than today and the Strait of Gibraltar was just a few kilometres wide, permitting even the most primitive raft to cross it easily. Is it merely a coincidence that the last attested trace of Neanderthal in Iberia (actually in Gibraltar itself) dates from 24,000 years ago, a short time before the Last Glacial Maximum ? Could their disappearance be the result of an an absorption by Homo Sapiens from North Africa ? The last Iberian Neanderthals did show some signs of hybridization with Homo Sapiens. Whereas Homo Sapiens indisputably colonised Paleolithic Europe from the Near East, a counter-current colonisation from Northwest Africa is plausible too.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#famous_people

I dont know why your E1b1 could comes from Berbers because they were expelled of Extremadura in the same way than in other Spanish regions. In fact, at the beginning of the Muslim conquest, Extremadura with its capital Merida to the head, remained fairly independent of Moorish government, thanks to taxes.
Add to that the fact Negroid Africans are actually a "recent" race. That can be proved by the fact a 22000 years old Caucasian skull has been found in Southern Africa. So these Paleolithic Africans coming to Iberia were most likely Proto-Caucasoids or even full on Caucasoids.

[Damião de Góis]

There are two E1b types in Iberia: the balkan one and the north african one. But i can't tell them apart, so i'm not sure which one do you have. Either way, both exist in Iberia.. so if your paternal line comes from there it's not an unusual result. Not the most common, but not unusual.

[Linebacker]

I could post tons of evidence proving "E*" is of Middle Eastern origin, that E1b is chiefly Caucasian North African and that E in Africa is the result of Caucasians entering Africa from the Middle East. E replaced A and B in most of Africa the same way Asian R1 replaced most I in Europe. E-M123, in the case of Ars Moriendi is of Iberian origin. The Berber mix was minimal in Spain, and E-M123 has existed in Iberia for a long, long time, as shown by the fact autossomal DNA in E-M123 Iberians, specially Cantabrians, has nothing to do with Berber DNA.

Well E is proven to be East African.

Whether its African or Middle-Eastern doesn't really concern Me that much,but I prefer to stick with the legitimate sources.I don't generally read literature from armchair-anthropologists.

[Guapo]

Congrats, did you do ftdna?

Edit ; you did 23andme.

[Germaniac]

Well E is proven to be East African.

Whether its African or Middle-Eastern doesn't really concern Me that much,but I prefer to stick with the legitimate sources.I don't generally read literature from armchair-anthropologists.
I'm basing myself in works by Hammer and Chandrasekar, not armchair anthropologists. E* has been proven to be an Middle Eastern, Caucasian Haplogroup. And even if it was African, it'd still predate the existence of Negroids, and it'd still be Caucasoid/Proto-Caucasoid.
A 2008 study by Zalloua has also shown the only true E* men ever tested were from the Levant.

[RL0o*Q]

According to the table at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M123, E-M123 is another name for E1b1b1c, not E1b1b1b2a. The latter is E-M81. The nomenclature is very confused. They are both sub-clades of E1b1b1, which according to ISOGG is E-M35.1. E1b1b1b is indeed associated with Berber populations. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_North_Africa. The time of separation between E1b1b1b and E1b1b1c is quite speculative. One should treat all estimates of the time of separation of these populations with considerable caution. The parent clade, E1b1b is E-M35. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M215_(Y-DNA). For the most part, one should assume that these clades formed prior to the development of any of the ethnic identities with which we are familiar. They mostly reach back to the Neolithic or earlier. In particular, because a particular sub-clade is closely associated today with a particular ethnic group, such as the Berbers, does not mean that it is exclusively so, or that at the time of origin, it would have been found in the same percentages or locations as it is now or among populations with the same phenotypes. That is, two people can belong to the same haplogroup and look very different.

[frido]

According to the table at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M123, E-M123 is another name for E1b1b1c, not E1b1b1b2a. The latter is E-M81. The nomenclature is very confused. They are both sub-clades of E1b1b1, which according to ISOGG is E-M35.1. E1b1b1b is indeed associated with Berber populations. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_North_Africa. The time of separation between E1b1b1b and E1b1b1c is quite speculative. One should treat all estimates of the time of separation of these populations with considerable caution. The parent clade, E1b1b is E-M35. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M215_(Y-DNA). For the most part, one should assume that these clades formed prior to the development of any of the ethnic identities with which we are familiar. They mostly reach back to the Neolithic or earlier. In particular, because a particular sub-clade is closely associated today with a particular ethnic group, such as the Berbers, does not mean that it is exclusively so, or that at the time of origin, it would have been found in the same percentages or locations as it is now or among populations with the same phenotypes. That is, two people can belong to the same haplogroup and look very different.

Hi! saludos, Grüße

23andme classified me as E1b1b1c, which is obsolete by ISOGG standards. Wiki conversion table replaced it with E1b1b1b2a..I used the ISOGG Y tree add on and got this:

• • E1b1b1b2a M123/PF2023, CTS677/PF2015, CTS1229, CTS1652/Z1152, CTS6404, CTS9588, CTS10656, CTS11004, L798, L799, L857/PF2017/Z1147, PF2021/Z1154
• • • • • • • • • E1b1b1b2a1 M34/PF2022, CTS1264/Z843, CTS1510/Z844, CTS10814/Z859, CTS10815/Z860, CTS10896/Z861, CTS12700/Z863, L787, L797/PF2016/Z1146, PF1999/Z1155, PF2018/Z1148, PF2020/Z1153, Z839, Z840, Z841, Z845, Z846, Z847, Z848, Z855, Z856, Z857, Z858, Z862
• • • • • • • • • • E1b1b1b2a1a M84, CTS1096, L795/CTS4483, L29/Page47, PF6750
Bold markers are positive. L29 was positive, does it means I'm E1b1b1b2a1a ?